X-Men #177 Review

[Arkady Rossovich]

I apologize if the book has already been reviewed. My search only turned up the "X-men 177 preview," and I figured I have enough to say to warrant a new thread (since I have the issue in my hands).

Hot off the heels of House of M comes X-Men #177, the direct sequel to the events that transpired in the conclusion of House of M: The Day After. This issue is written by Peter Milligan and penciled by Salvador Larocca.

There was a lot of potential for this issue; the "Bizarre Love Triangle" arc was devoid of action and "Wild Kingdom" was all around bad in my opinion. The book had no where to go but up, and an action-packed issue of the team fighting Sentinels could have been just what was needed.

What we get, however, is an issue filled with hit-or-miss dialogue, underwhelming art (for Larocca's standards) and out-of-character comments (more on these later), all building up to a weak final page. Essentially, the issue is a mess of un-needed splash pages centered around a "battle" that isn't even really happening. And yet the X-Men still find a way to get their asses kicked. This seems to be a running theme in Milligan's arcs.

Here's a rundown:

The X-Men (consisted of Cyclops, Beast, Wolverine, Colossus, Gambit, Rogue, Iceman, Polaris, Havok, and New X-Men like Hellion and Rockslide) encounter five giant Sentinels in their own backyard. All the while the "Sapien League" (the group who attacked Mammomax and some Morlocks (?) in The Day After) plot a possible attack in the woods.

A 2 page splash of the team staring down the Sentinels followed by another page with only 3 panels and 2 dialogue bubbles opens up this clash. Essentially, the only thing that happens so far is that Cyclops whines that the X-Men are not staying in defensive formation.

Cyclops and Havok get hit with a smoke bomb from one of the Sentinels. Cyke is puzzled as to why Sentinels would use these. Wolverine and Beast attack a Sentinel head-on and get hit with rockets that let loose nets. This page contains one of the best pieces of dialogue in the issue - Wolverine: "[wait] Until what? Until all our kind are wiped out? We're like a wounded animal, Hank...and the vultures are gathering." (although I doubt Logan would say it like that).

An inane fight ensues with Beast getting knocked off a Sentinel and whining to Gambit "Leave me, Remy. I'm finished. It's over." Yeah, like Beast would be so ready to die against a fleet of Sentinels that hasn't done anything except flick him down 15 feet into Gambit's arms. Real nice, Milligan. Then we get a couple of shots of Lorna's face as Havok asks her to use her powers. She seems troubled.

We learn that Polaris has also lost her powers with a narrative box: "Why don't I just tell them the truth?......Because they're all I've got. And I'm so scared of losing them?" Emma is using Cerebra and psychically tells Scott to pull back while she gathers information on the Sentinels. The Sentinels repeatedly tell the X-Men to stand down, claiming they are not there to fight.

Another pointless page. Hellion gets hit with the Sentinel's hand. Who cares.

Iceman, against the will of Havok (so predictable) runs in front of a Sentinel, taunting it. Polaris pulls him out of the way of a smoke bomb.

Two Sapien League guys with guns hide in the woods, talking about how they're so glad they're not mutants (and as an aside, it may seem minor to some, but when have mutant hate groups ever not referred to mutants by the slang "mutie" or the like? It annoyed me for some reason). One guy is scared by a woman with a mask in the Sapien League; he thinks she's a mutant. When he asks if anyone has ever seen her without her mask, the other guy replies, "Once. Fool didn't live five minutes."

Bobby and Lorna almost get stepped on by a Sentinel. Wolverine claws it in the face and it falls over into the school, saving them. One claw stab stops a Sentinel? If you say so. Bobby thinks Lorna used her powers just in time (he didn't see Wolverine). Lorna doesn't say otherwise.

This part really pisses me off. Havok whines about how the school is partially destroyed and tries to be prolific by saying Xavier's dream is getting crushed. When Cyclops says they can rebuild, Alex retorts with "Can we? Look--the finest mutants of their generation...the mighty X-Men...it's taken the Sentinels five minutes to crush us." We then see Hellion, Beast, and Gambit lying on the ground. When did Gambit get hurt, and how are those 3 the finest mutants of their generation? And even so, how is Alex being a leader here? By crying about a loss when the Sentinels HAVEN'T EVEN ATTACKED YET? Stop making Havok such a loser!

Emma says she thinks the Sentinels are human. Cyclops is surprised. Lorna stands in front of one (much to the chagrin of Bobby and Alex) and tries to use her powers. It grabs her and drops her in the woods. A random soldier (not from the Sapien League) says "that was dumb. You're just lucky we're here to help you." Valerie Cooper is with the soldiers. To be continued.

I remember Valerie Cooper (sorta) from X-Factor, but would anyone care to tell me why this is such a big deal?

As you can see, I was disappointed with this issue. I'm one of the few people that saw the promise in House of M, but if this is going to be typical of the follow-through, then it seems the X-Men as we know them have been reduced to a bunch of whiny incompetents.

Hope that was a good enough summary. Anyone else who read the issue or who has a comment based on my take on it, please respond. Thanks!

Edit: I wrote this before reading X-Men: Deadly Genesis #1. That book has ensured that Decimation will be a good event in my mind, so I am a little relieved.....but still disappointed in this particular issue.

[Brian Cronin]

I think Val showing up is tied into the new human group.

-Brian

[Beast]

Val's one of the directors of Sentinel Squad O*N*E.

[Brian Cronin]

Yeah, that's the name!

-Brian

[hoopoe]

Thanks for the review. I picked it up and leafed through it today, but just couldn't bring myself to buy it. Hard to say goodbye to this title because I've read it for so long, but Milligan just isn't working for me and Sal's work is getting very weak and derivative.

Plus the whole HOM debacle. OY!

Someday I hope to come back to my X-friends.

[Steven F.]

I actually found the book to be pretty damn good for a change...the only part I disliked was the Beat comment after he was thrown...very dramatic...too dramatic.

[Cayman]

Best issue so far!

Cay

[Arkady Rossovich]

Perhaps I was too harsh on the issue. Still, it left me wanting something more. Maybe I had too high of hopes for Milligan. The "X-Men" portrayed in this book are not the same as the ones in Astonishing or even Deadly Genesis.

[Beast]

I actually found the book to be pretty damn good for a change...the only part I disliked was the Beat comment after he was thrown...very dramatic...too dramatic.
Yeah, Beast's comment was so out of character it's stupid. :p

[streator]

lorna is powerless as well?

[Beast]

lorna is powerless as well?
Or just believes she is. If she actually is, Milligan's gonna need some new X-Men. :)

[Arkady Rossovich]

Yeah, Beast's comment was so out of character it's stupid. :p

If I had to pick a single reason why I disliked the issue, it would have to be that Beast line (or possibly Havok's). I mean, you call yourself a professional and you let something THAT out-of-character slip by? Any middle school fanfic writer would be more true to the characters than that. These inconsistencies distract from the book and cancel out all the good scenes, just leaving you with a bad taste in your mouth. Here's hoping the next issue is better...

[Titan Slade]

Thanks for the review. I picked it up and leafed through it today, but just couldn't bring myself to buy it. Hard to say goodbye to this title because I've read it for so long, but Milligan just isn't working for me and Sal's work is getting very weak and derivative.


Are you a telepath? because you read my mind on exactly how I feel about Milligan's X-Men. I dropped it from my pull list last month.

[mattbib]

Overall I liked the issue. Art was good, except some of the coloring could have been better. I really didn't enjoy the washed out backgrounds. Everything in this issue was too damn green.

I do think Milligan's writing Polaris pretty will now. And Bobb too actually.

[Black Hole]

My hopes were pretty much dashed with this issue. I was pretty excited at the end of HOM: The Day After, but man did this suck.

I know this is a very traumatic time for the X-Men, but it really disgusted me that they all fell apart so easily. After all the crap they have been through over the years they should be trained better than this. Wolverine of all people should not be going off half-cocked and should have Cyclops' back. And then Hank follows him? Since when is he that stupid? and everybody who mentioned that god-awful "woe is me" line that Hank spouted was right on the money.

But anyway Milligan's treatment of the Polaris situation is pretty dismal...talk about contrived and needlessly drawn out...chick use your powers already! At least try! I found it hard to believe that, crazy or not, she's that weak that she is afraid to face the possibility of losing her powers. Didn't someone else on this board mention that her hair is part of her mutation? Aargh.

Of course, Hellion was characterized completely wrong. That kid is waaay too arrogant to acknowledge possible defeat. The list goes on and on here..the new "bad-ass" villain with the hockey mask. Boring. Then Emma Frost..." I think, I mean They're not, er um...I'm picking up.." OUT WITH IT WOMAN!! Sheesh! And who knew Havok was such a whining, defeatist loser? Dude, unleash one of those heat blasts! WTF?

Of course, seeing as how it seemed the Sentinels were there to help anyway, it's better that he didn't, but you know...

I agree with others about the coloring. What is it going to take to get them to quit with the crazy art style? I've seen this guy's work looking way better than this.

I know this is a rant, but I'm pretty let down after a spark of hope. Man I hope Deadly Genesis is better than this...

[Jesse Newcomb]

I would love it if Husk replaced Polaris on the team.

[Keith_Martineau]

You know, I'm finally able to put my finger on what I don't like about Milligan's X-Men.
I too was pretty hyped up for this issue after the end of HoM: The Day After. Or at least, cautiously optimistic due to the preview pages. I dropped X-Men after Golgotha...just too boring, and the characterization was just slightly off.

And after giving it another chance with this issue, I can say exactly what I don't like.

Everything is JUST slightly off. Characterization and dialogue is CLOSE, and shows HINTS of being right---but it never lives up to those hints. But it doesn't go off and get worse either...it just keeps hinting at being right. Same with the storytelling and action. It shows hints and potential to be interesting...but instead of getting interesting it just...does nothing. It doesn't even go in the WRONG direction and get crappy...it just goes nowhere.
22 pages of go nowhere action and almost right characterization.

[Titan Slade]

You know, I'm finally able to put my finger on what I don't like about Milligan's X-Men.
I too was pretty hyped up for this issue after the end of HoM: The Day After. Or at least, cautiously optimistic due to the preview pages. I dropped X-Men after Golgotha...just too boring, and the characterization was just slightly off.

And after giving it another chance with this issue, I can say exactly what I don't like.

Everything is JUST slightly off. Characterization and dialogue is CLOSE, and shows HINTS of being right---but it never lives up to those hints. But it doesn't go off and get worse either...it just keeps hinting at being right. Same with the storytelling and action. It shows hints and potential to be interesting...but instead of getting interesting it just...does nothing. It doesn't even go in the WRONG direction and get crappy...it just goes nowhere.
22 pages of go nowhere action and almost right characterization.

Kieth, you are being way to polite in this statement about the true suckiness of Milligan's X-Men. You explained the suckiness in a very nice way ;) .

[Keith_Martineau]

Kieth, you are being way to polite in this statement about the true suckiness of Milligan's X-Men. You explained the suckiness in a very nice way ;) .

Well, I ain't generally known for being a mad angry basher unless people have REALLY irritated me.

Milligan has just bored me with his consistent mediocrity.

And the worst part is, there is a really interesting Apocalypse storyline coming up, and I know it's gonna be boring!

[Titan Slade]

Well, I ain't generally known for being a mad angry basher unless people have REALLY irritated me.

Milligan has just bored me with his consistent mediocrity.

And the worst part is, there is a really interesting Apocalypse storyline coming up, and I know it's gonna be boring!

And the worse part is that Milligan should not be getting all the blame, because Larroca's pencils and Liquid's colors are just as bad as Milligan's scripting :( . I will give Larroca props on his awesome covers, but the interiors are just bland, lacking energy, and uninspired.

[Keith_Martineau]

Naw, I'll go ahead and lay the blame on Milligan for that too. He doesn't give Larocca anything interesting to draw!

[Gaveedra 6]

I think Milligan is trying to write character-driven stories while being paired with a penciler who can't really draw anything but emotionally vacant action pinups. It's just a really bad match.

Golgotha worked better in a way- Milligan was writing to Sal's talents. Unfortunately the story was a mess... Now it's the opposite. Milligan is trying to dig into these characters' personalities, but Sal is just phoning it in.

I've been optimistic from the beginning, because I really like Milligan, but this book feels like it's going nowhere. All the other X-Books have a purpose. Uncanny has that oldschool feel with classic characters. Astonishing has the Whedon signature dialogue with the cinematic art. Even the new spin-offs are more distinct.

It feels like Milligan wasn't assigned any real direction with this book. He's not an "X-Writer" or even a fan of superheroes, per se. I think he's doing what he thinks X-fans will like. It's really the editor's fault for not getting better stories out of this talented writer.

No editor at Marvel has said "make it a smart, ironic X-statix-type book" or "make it intense and scary like Enigma or Face," or even "make it intriguing and violent like Skreemer." It's as if the only direction he's had was "keep these 5 characters from going into limbo .... and make it suck less than Chuck Austen."

Sad.

[Cayman]

I think Milligan's doing fine, I look forward to every issue.

Cay

[Gaveedra 6]

I think Milligan's doing fine, I look forward to every issue.

Cay
I still look forward to them too. But Milligan's writing can be so damn great. It's just disappointing to read comics by him that get a C+.

[Arkady Rossovich]

I think Milligan's doing fine, I look forward to every issue.

Cay

Not to say you're wrong, Cayman, but what reasons do you have for liking it? I don't mean that in an asshole way I just want to know why your feelings are different than those of people like me, Black Hole, Keith Martineau, Gaveedra, etc. Is there something deeper that I'm missing? Or is it just a case of "jaded fanboys never being satisfied" in your mind? Thanks!

[Titan Slade]

Not to say you're wrong, Cayman, but what reasons do you have for liking it? I don't mean that in an asshole way I just want to know why your feelings are different than those of people like me, Black Hole, Keith Martineau, Gaveedra, etc. Is there something deeper that I'm missing? Or is it just a case of "jaded fanboys never being satisfied" in your mind? Thanks!

Cayman is Peter Milligan's user name on these boards, hence the positive comments about the book ;) .

[Cayman]

Not to say you're wrong, Cayman, but what reasons do you have for liking it? I don't mean that in an asshole way I just want to know why your feelings are different than those of people like me, Black Hole, Keith Martineau, Gaveedra, etc. Is there something deeper that I'm missing? Or is it just a case of "jaded fanboys never being satisfied" in your mind? Thanks!

I just enjoy reading it. There's a lot of fun and interesting stuff going on.

Cay

[Arkady Rossovich]

Fair enough. With the upcoming Apocalypse arc I'm definitely sticking around, so I guess I better start looking on the bright side of Milligan's work. I mean, the guy did do X-Statix (maybe it is overrated but I love it) so there's a lot of possibility. But if he f's up Apoc, I may have to drop the book (of course, I'd be mad if anyone messed up Apocalypse).

[Beast]

Cayman is Peter Milligan's user name on these boards, hence the positive comments about the book ;) .
And Titan Slade is obviously Chris Bachelo's. :)

[Titan Slade]

And Titan Slade is obviously Chris Bachelo's. :)

Brilliant deduction Beast, but don't tell TheSentryLives my secret, because he thinks that I am Paul Jenkins ;) .

[Cayman]

Ugh, I hate Apocalypse.

Bring back Mystique and Fantomex.

Cay

[fishtaco]

Ugh, I hate Apocalypse.

Bring back Mystique and Fantomax.

CayI'm sure Mystique is coming back. Rogue even said so herself.

[Cayman]

I'm sure Mystique is coming back. Rogue even said so herself.

I want to see what her and Fantomex were up to in the Bizarre Love Triangle arc.

Cay

[Hi-Fi]

I want to see what her and Fantomex were up to in the Bizarre Love Triangle arc.

Cay

Was that Fantomex for sure?

[Gaveedra 6]

Was that Fantomex for sure?
No. It seemed to hint at it, but no one can be sure.

[Cayman]

My heart tells me it's true.

Cay

[Hi-Fi]

My heart tells me it's true.

Cay

But didn't she try to kill him in her book?

Now, all of a sudden, they are sex friends again?

[Cayman]

But didn't she try to kill him in her book?

Now, all of a sudden, they are sex friends again?

Well, they are both a bit perverse.

Cay

[TJ Shoun]

This was a bad issue.

1. Since when do a good portion of the team members ignore Scott's explicitly stated field commands?! Stated twice, no less. :rolleyes:

2. Cyke is still preaching pacifism while half his team is instigating the conflict he was trying to avoid -- yet he does nothing to stop it. :rolleyes:

3. Super-smart Hank tags along with Logan on the attack, yet questions if it's the correct move right before they jump the Sentinel. :rolleyes:

4. Hank's melodramatic "I'm finished... it's over" line. Jesus. :rolleyes:

5. So, Lorna's gonna risk her life in front of a Sentinel as a test to see if her powers will return. Makes sense, because there's NOT 1,000,000,000 other way to find out that don't involve losing your ass.

6. So how DID that Sentinel end up falling anyway? Was it shot by the one Logan was skewering or what? Totally unclear.

7. Lorna is picked up a Sentinel, carried 50 feet and dropped, for zero apparent reason through some trees. Makes sense. But the upshot is that even though she fell a good 25 feet to the ground, through limbs, branches, and leaves, she gets up unscathed, without even the breath knowcked out of her. Of course, none of the onlooking X-Men question why she didn't use her POWERS to fly instead of fall. Whatever.

I've actually enjoyed most of Milligan's run so far, but this was completely phoned-in.

Maybe it's the editorial dictation that's the problem, because Milligan is usually a lot better than this.

[Beast]

I've actually enjoyed most of Milligan's run so far, but this was completely phoned-in.

Maybe it's the editorial dictation that's the problem, because Milligan is usually a lot better than this.
I could see it being editorial if there was something good at all here. But editorial doesn't usually step in for stuff like character dialogue. I think it's just time to face it, Milligan's not an improvement for Austen. They're both awful in their own way. Clearly Milligan needs new characters to actually be able to shine. Because his writing for established ones is awful.

[Cayman]

I think he's a lot better than Austen. Austen could be entertaining, but he was generally sucky.

Cay

[Beast]

I think he's a lot better than Austen. Austen could be entertaining, but he was generally sucky.

Cay
That's the point, Austen was actually entertaining. Even if he was awful. :)

[Cayman]

Well, I'm sure Marvel will fire Milligan any second now anyway, so everyone can be happy then but I'll keep reading and enjoying it till he does.

Cay

[Beast]

Well, I'm sure Marvel will fire Milligan any second now anyway, so everyone can be happy then but I'll keep reading and enjoying it till he does.

Cay
Can we just keep reading it and complaining instead? :D

[Black Hole]

Can we just keep reading it and complaining instead? :D

That's half the fun right there!

[Cayman]

Can we just keep reading it and complaining instead? :D

Sure, it prolongs the amount of time I can keep reading and enjoying it. :D

Cay

[Titan Slade]

Can we just keep reading it and complaining instead? :D

I dropped the title from my pull list, and do not miss it at all. I suggest you do the same. The worse the sales are on this title, the quicker Milligan will be replaced.

[Neolucifer]

Wow that was it ??? What a lackluster issue at every level .....
First we got a god awful green color through the whole book , then we get not only proofs that the current xmen team was quite incompetent , but the astonishing one as well ??

While i understand that Scott will remains THE leader , that Emma will remains THE other leader :D , that what a pretty interesting demonstration of lack of any kind of leadership from havok ...
Then we get the worst Polaris ever , not even trying her powers for the sake of a lame cliffhanger . Though like others , i'll still hope she remains a mutant , even with a crappy reason to the why she never tried her powers .
Hank was utterly impossible to understand in that issue . I dont agree that it was out of character for wolverine to jump into a fight without listening , that what he always did and will keep doing... it gave plenty excuse for Teams of heroes vs each others , or stuff like spiderman VS wolverine in Marvel team up , until of course the misunderstanding is cleared . But HanK ?? And Wth did milligan smoke with that line !!!!

Way to screw up such a perfect set up for interesting stories !!! I knew it would somehow happen and wasnt really thrilled by the idea of that great sentinel apparition from CC's HoM the Day after to be continued there , but i was expecting as usual an average issue from Milligan , so still readable . Instead we got some utter garbage ...

As for those new sentinels , i know the xmen are used to eat them like fastfood , and that of course those sentinel werent fully eager to fight , so hardly at 100% of their fighting level , however that was some weak fighting , especially against such a miserable xmen team .


I dropped the title from my pull list, and do not miss it at all. I suggest you do the same. The worse the sales are on this title, the quicker Milligan will be replaced.
I intend to do so if the next issue is of the same level . For the first time since i've started again to pick up comics , i feel like dropping a core x book , something even austen didnt managed to make me do (and yet it should have)

I also agree with Keith that Sal wasnt compeltely at fault . Sure he was hardly doing his best , but i cant help but feel , no one would even try to release great art with such bad writing . Heck even the colorist felt like doing crappy stuff it seems !!! :D

[Cayman]

This story takes two weeks after "M-Day" - Polaris has certainly tested her powers already and knows they aren't there.

Cay

[Beast]

This story takes two weeks after "M-Day" - Polaris has certainly tested her powers already and knows they aren't there.

Cay
Unless she just doesn't have access to them due to psychological reasons.

[Titan Slade]

Unless she just doesn't have access to them due to psychological reasons.

Or crappy writing ;) .

[Sabrinaset]

Every time I read an X-Book, I'm more convinced that the number "198" refers to the number of people who *enjoy* reading the X-Books.

[Titan Slade]

Every time I read an X-Book, I'm more convinced that the number "198" refers to the number of people who *enjoy* reading the X-Books.

You flatter us x-fans with such a high number, but you should problably drop the 1.

[Sabrinaset]

You flatter us x-fans with such a high number, but you should problably drop the 1.

Or the 9 :)

[steve2275]

I just enjoy reading it. There's a lot of fun and interesting stuff going on.

Cay
..........yes

[The Dosadi Experiment]

You know, Milligan could have perhaps done something with the fact that in House of M Polaris stood side by side with Magnus, as a daughter, on the same level as Pietro and Wanda even, perhaps even higher as Wanda was considered human...

with all those heroes that...
remember?
yeah, remember
oh I see
yeah, I know, they all
remember
yep
ok
so they remember
they remember
everything?
everything!

it stands to reason that they'd also have something of a bone to pick with Lorna as well.

but instead she's depowered, and knows it (how can you NOT know?) and still rushes into battle on foot, trying to make people believe she still has powers...

kind of lame.

[steve2275]

she doesnt wanna dissapoint her friends
yet she doesnt want them knowing she has lost what makes her a mutant

[larroca fan]

hi i'm back it's iceman rocks i just changed my user name because my computer deleted everything to do with the internet.


this issue was great the colurs and inks look like magna

[Mart]

Would it have killed the Sentinel to drop a calling card, saying: Here to help? Does the government not think Sentinels might alarm the X-Men? Why is Bobby allowed to stay at the school when similarly depowered Dani has gone? Whatever happened to Salvadore Larocca's art, this was ugly stuff with typicially wishy washy colours by the dire Liquid? How stupid are the X-Men not to actually challenge Lorna on her no-show powers? Why does Bobby assume she's stopped the Sentinel when her power signature isn't evident and she doesn't do any of hersuual floating? Why is Bobby even there as a non-mutant, wasn't his body turned completely to ice awhile back so he couldn't do flesh and blood anymore? Why is Cyclops telling his team members to just stand still in front of the Sentinels cos they weren't actively attacking. These would be the Sentinels who, when they are actively attacking, are actively disintegrating your mutant ass.

[TinMan]

Would it have killed the Sentinel to drop a calling card, saying: Here to help? Does the government not think Sentinels might alarm the X-Men? Why is Bobby allowed to stay at the school when similarly depowered Dani has gone? Whatever happened to Salvadore Larocca's art, this was ugly stuff with typicially wishy washy colours by the dire Liquid? How stupid are the X-Men not to actually challenge Lorna on her no-show powers? Why does Bobby assume she's stopped the Sentinel when her power signature isn't evident and she doesn't do any of hersuual floating? Why is Bobby even there as a non-mutant, wasn't his body turned completely to ice awhile back so he couldn't do flesh and blood anymore? Why is Cyclops telling his team members to just stand still in front of the Sentinels cos they weren't actively attacking. These would be the Sentinels who, when they are actively attacking, are actively disintegrating your mutant ass.

I didn't see Dani leave (what issue was this?) but I'm guessing it was of her own accord.

The lack of challenge to the use of her powers is questionable, but put yourself in their shoes, Lorna's their friend, they figure if something was wrong she would have told them, which obviously she hasn't.

Bobby probably assumed it was her because he couldn't see Logan on its shoulders and the power signatures shown in comics are there for OUR benefit so we know when mutants are using their powers. I mean when you hold two magnets together do you see green energy? nope, not really.

Bobby more than likely stayed to help with the students (which was shown in "The Day After" one-shot) and the fact that he has been there for years, its his home. He was turned into solid ice awhile back, but I fail to see what that has to do with him being at the school.

I'd put my money on the fact that Cyclops was telling them to wait because the Sentinel said, "X-Men, stand down, we're not here to fight". I mean, that seems like a decent reason to hear em out to me.

Honestly, this is probably my least favorite X-book, I like it to a certain extent, and Milligan does a good job of following the path that he has laid out, I just think the paths he lays kinda suck.

[Black Hole]

Why is Bobby allowed to stay at the school when similarly depowered Dani has gone?


But DID Dani actually leave? I know she was fired, but at the end of The Day After mini, I remember seeing her head at the bottom of the page when the sentinels showed up. Was she there for the fight with the Sentinels?

[punisher_ryu]

I didn't see Dani leave (what issue was this?) but I'm guessing it was of her own accord.

The lack of challenge to the use of her powers is questionable, but put yourself in their shoes, Lorna's their friend, they figure if something was wrong she would have told them, which obviously she hasn't.

Bobby probably assumed it was her because he couldn't see Logan on its shoulders and the power signatures shown in comics are there for OUR benefit so we know when mutants are using their powers. I mean when you hold two magnets together do you see green energy? nope, not really.

Bobby more than likely stayed to help with the students (which was shown in "The Day After" one-shot) and the fact that he has been there for years, its his home. He was turned into solid ice awhile back, but I fail to see what that has to do with him being at the school.

I'd put my money on the fact that Cyclops was telling them to wait because the Sentinel said, "X-Men, stand down, we're not here to fight". I mean, that seems like a decent reason to hear em out to me.

Honestly, this is probably my least favorite X-book, I like it to a certain extent, and Milligan does a good job of following the path that he has laid out, I just think the paths he lays kinda suck.

hey,new here,anyway.i really wish(kinda unrelated to this issue,but concerns bobby)bobby had some impressive physical(fighting)skills,im not sayin he can take down a sentinel by kicking it(unless he was fully iced up).i just wish,since he is my favorite character and has more experience than atleast 95% of the x-men,that he could kick @$$ like(without his powers)logan,kitty,psylocke,daredevil,etc.

[TinMan]

hey,new here,anyway.i really wish(kinda unrelated to this issue,but concerns bobby)bobby had some impressive physical(fighting)skills,im not sayin he can take down a sentinel by kicking it(unless he was fully iced up).i just wish,since he is my favorite character and has more experience than atleast 95% of the x-men,that he could kick @$$ like(without his powers)logan,kitty,psylocke,daredevil,etc.

I think it sucks that he lost his powers at all frankly, but I really don't see him holding his own very well without them. All the characters you named had formal hand to hand combat training sometime through the course of their lives, while as far as I know, Bobbo really hasn't. Sure he has mad combat experience but most of that was use of his gifts, not throwing punches.

[punisher_ryu]

I think it sucks that he lost his powers at all frankly, but I really don't see him holding his own very well without them. All the characters you named had formal hand to hand combat training sometime through the course of their lives, while as far as I know, Bobbo really hasn't. Sure he has mad combat experience but most of that was use of his gifts, not throwing punches.

that suks.i dont want bobby to be a show off,id just like him to be able to hold his own against say wolverine in hand to hand combat(not necesarilly be better than logan).im sure he could learn,and now that his powers are gone,he's gonna have to find someway to make himself usefull on the field.hand-to-hand training should be standard for x-men or new mutants and recruits to learn.maybe it was and bobby did learn some in his younger xmen years(off-panel),but never felt the need to use them with his powers available.or maybe im just hopeful.

[Cowlander]

that suks.i dont want bobby to be a show off,id just like him to be able to hold his own against say wolverine in hand to hand combat(not necesarilly be better than logan).im sure he could learn,and now that his powers are gone,he's gonna have to find someway to make himself usefull on the field.hand-to-hand training should be standard for x-men or new mutants and recruits to learn.maybe it was and bobby did learn some in his younger xmen years(off-panel),but never felt the need to use them with his powers available.or maybe im just hopeful.
Something to ponder...

Considering what happened to Blob and Chamber after HoM. Why isnt Bobby dead?

[xmanson]

What the hell happneed to larroca? His art gets worse by the issue... man. The coloring was not that good either.

[Titan Slade]

that suks.i dont want bobby to be a show off,id just like him to be able to hold his own against say wolverine in hand to hand combat(not necesarilly be better than logan).im sure he could learn,and now that his powers are gone,he's gonna have to find someway to make himself usefull on the field.hand-to-hand training should be standard for x-men or new mutants and recruits to learn.maybe it was and bobby did learn some in his younger xmen years(off-panel),but never felt the need to use them with his powers available.or maybe im just hopeful.

This is funny, but at the same time has some goofy relevence. Early on when Claremont was writing Uncanny, he had Cyclops whip Wolverine in power free hand-to-hand combat, even though Cyclops has never had any professional hand-to-hand combat training by a military organization, in boxing, in the martial arts, or in wrestling :rolleyes: . Even though Claremont at the time had not revealed Wolverine to be a master Samurai warrior, it was revealed that Wolverine had years of Canadian military training as well as covert ops training which would mean he would have had formal hand-to-hand combat training. Wolverine is "by far" the best hand-to-hand combat fighter in the X-Men, followed by Kitty(Wolverine trained her), and no other X-Men member would logically be able to come close to beating him in a no powers fight except for possibly his student Kitty. So Bobby would have to have a few hundred years of hand-to-hand combat training to reach a level even close to Wolverine in this catagory.

[punisher_ryu]

Something to ponder...

Considering what happened to Blob and Chamber after HoM. Why isnt Bobby dead?

HE GOT MAD SKILLS!!!!!!!!!!

seriously,marvel probably has plans for him.

[punisher_ryu]

This is funny, but at the same time has some goofy relevence. Early on when Claremont was writing Uncanny, he had Cyclops whip Wolverine in power free hand-to-hand combat, even though Cyclops has never had any professional hand-to-hand combat training by a military organization, in boxing, in the martial arts, or in wrestling :rolleyes: . Even though Claremont at the time had not revealed Wolverine to be a master Samurai warrior, it was revealed that Wolverine had years of Canadian military training as well as covert ops training which would mean he would have had formal hand-to-hand combat training. Wolverine is "by far" the best hand-to-hand combat fighter in the X-Men, followed by Kitty(Wolverine trained her), and no other X-Men member would logically be able to come close to beating him in a no powers fight except for possibly his student Kitty. So Bobby would have to have a few hundred years of hand-to-hand combat training to reach a level even close to Wolverine in this catagory.

especially now that logan remembers his past and can recall all that combat experience he gained,but again,id just like bobby to hold his own in hand to hand.

[Neolucifer]

Why would he die ?? Blob lost the fat that was part of his power , yet kept the whole skin that wasnt a part of his mutation it seems .
Chamber got his chest and face blown by an accident involving his mutant power , not as a part of the mutation itself , so he cant be "healed" back by depowering .
But why should iceman die ?? He was only suck in his icy form , so depowered he is your normal human without scars.

[Titan Slade]

especially now that logan remembers his past and can recall all that combat experience he gained,but again,id just like bobby to hold his own in hand to hand.

He should be able to hold his own just fine, but Wolverine is the last X-Man Bobby should try to test his novice skills against. He should be asking Wolverine to train him in hand-to-hand combat.

[punisher_ryu]

He should be able to hold his own just fine, but Wolverine is the last X-Man Bobby should try to test his novice skills against. He should be asking Wolverine to train him in hand-to-hand combat.

hey they could make that into an actual story.bobby probably would go for it.i get the feelin he hates feelin useless.

[Neolucifer]

frankly we have yet to see a xman efficient against their usual threats with purely fighting skills and martial arts , especially with the strength of a trained normal human .
The one that use mostly those might be wolverine , and without his powers , we all know he'd be countless time dead already .

Sure he'll probably be kept around by the xmen (or might leave on his own for a while) but lets not be in denial , it would be mostly for sentimental value , unless of course he got some help from a decent equipement .

[Mart]

I didn't see Dani leave (what issue was this?) but I'm guessing it was of her own accord.


It was in the latest New X-Men (no longer Academy X) and not of her own accord. Emma told her to leave for her own safety, cos she had no more powers.


Bobby probably assumed it was her because he couldn't see Logan on its shoulders and the power signatures shown in comics are there for OUR benefit so we know when mutants are using their powers. I mean when you hold two magnets together do you see green energy? nope, not really.


Hey, don't go wrecking my illusions! I'm sure we've had comics refer to people's visible energy signatures.


Bobby more than likely stayed to help with the students (which was shown in "The Day After" one-shot) and the fact that he has been there for years, its his home. He was turned into solid ice awhile back, but I fail to see what that has to do with him being at the school.

Not what I was meaning - what I wonder is why he turned to flesh and blood again rather than a pool of water. And of course, the answer is the ongoing cop-out 'cos that's what Wanda wanted/remembered)




I'd put my money on the fact that Cyclops was telling them to wait because the Sentinel said, "X-Men, stand down, we're not here to fight". I mean, that seems like a decent reason to hear em out to me.

Thanks - I rather missed that. I still think Cyke should've had Rachel erect a teke shield or something though, they seemed awfully exposed.

[xakko]

This is funny, but at the same time has some goofy relevence. Early on when Claremont was writing Uncanny, he had Cyclops whip Wolverine in power free hand-to-hand combat, even though Cyclops has never had any professional hand-to-hand combat training by a military organization, in boxing, in the martial arts, or in wrestling :rolleyes: .
Cyclops and the rest of the X-men received intense fighting training. And I am guessing Cyclops is at least a black belt in judo. He did train Colossus, even if the big guy never uses it. He also has been shown to use pressure points to render Shadowcat (then Sprite) unconscious.

And if you are referring to the Proteus encounter, Wolverine was severely traumatized at the time, and that had overridden his training.

[Will.S]

He should be able to hold his own just fine, but Wolverine is the last X-Man Bobby should try to test his novice skills against. He should be asking Wolverine to train him in hand-to-hand combat.
I find this a bit ironic and maybe even a bit sad how Wolverine can train these people like Kitty, Storm and the New X-Men students to fight so well yet his first instinct is to pop his claws and thrash all about completely ignoring all of his training when fighting really well trained fighters.

It's almost as if his animal insticts completely take over almost all the time. I'm not sure if writers do that just because when he goes all out he's a bigger threat than when he's calm and reserved or because they want to just totally disregard any fighting experience he's learned over the years.

[Cowlander]

I find this a bit ironic and maybe even a bit sad how Wolverine can train these people like Kitty, Storm and the New X-Men students to fight so well yet his first instinct is to pop his claws and thrash all about completely ignoring all of his training when fighting really well trained fighters.

It's almost as if his animal insticts completely take over almost all the time. I'm not sure if writers do that just because when he goes all out he's a bigger threat than when he's calm and reserved or because they want to just totally disregard any fighting experience he's learned over the years.
"Bezerker" mode Wolvie is kinda a staple of x - canon tho. These were sentinels when have sentinels ever come around just to talk. Last time I remember them actively popping up was wiping out the hellions and genosha. I dont think they have that good a record for the whole peaceful dissertations and whatnot...

When I go to the store I'll pick up a check it out.

[Titan Slade]

they want to just totally disregard any fighting experience he's learned over the years.

This is the most logical reason, because the writers are not fighters themselves, so they do not understand anything about the mind of an expertly trained hand-to-hand combatant. When pacifists try to write about characters fighting, we get things like 90 pound women beating up on 300 pound men :rolleyes: . Go figure :confused: .

[Will.S]

"Bezerker" mode Wolvie is kinda a staple of x - canon tho. These were sentinels when have sentinels ever come around just to talk. Last time I remember them actively popping up was wiping out the hellions and genosha. I dont think they have that good a record for the whole peaceful dissertations and whatnot...

When I go to the store I'll pick up a check it out.
Eh, I didn't have much problems with Wolverine acting restless and rash when it came to the Sentinels since (like you said) they've brought nothing but bad news, I'm just stating how much I dislike when writers write him as a hand-to-hand combat retard.

[DDM]

But why should iceman die ?? He was only suck in his icy form , so depowered he is your normal human without scars.

At the time Bobby lost his powers, he was a being made of pure ice. Bobby's ice-form should have collapsed & he would have melted. Bobby should be dead.

[Cayman]

If Bobby's body could turn into pure ice, unlikely as that was, why couldn't it turn back to skin again? It's no more unbelievable that what happened the first time.

Cay

[DDM]

If Bobby's body could turn into pure ice, unlikely as that was, why couldn't it turn back to skin again? It's no more unbelievable that what happened the first time.

Cay

Bobby was stuck in his pure ice form. That's why.

[Cayman]

Bobby was stuck in his pure ice form. That's why.

He got unstuck.

Cay

[DDM]

He got unstuck.

Cay

deus ex machina

[Cayman]

deus ex machina

Nah, if he could turn into pure ice from flesh, he could turn back to flesh from pure ice. Why do you want Bobby to die so much? I like Bobby.

Cay

[DDM]

Nah, if he could turn into pure ice from flesh, he could turn back to flesh from pure ice. Why do you want Bobby to die so much? I like Bobby.

Cay

I don't. However, given Bobby was a being of pure ice, without his powers, he would perish.

[Cayman]

I don't. However, given Bobby was a being of pure ice, without his powers, he would perish.

Without his powers, he became no longer a being of pure ice. So he lived.

Cay

[Beast]

Without his powers, he became no longer a being of pure ice. So he lived.

Cay
Exactly. His body reverted from organic ice, to flesh and blood without his powers.

[Cowlander]

Why would he die ?? Blob lost the fat that was part of his power , yet kept the whole skin that wasnt a part of his mutation it seems .
Chamber got his chest and face blown by an accident involving his mutant power , not as a part of the mutation itself , so he cant be "healed" back by depowering .
But why should iceman die ?? He was only suck in his icy form , so depowered he is your normal human without scars.

No bobby was made completely of ice so following the exampless of Blob and Chamb he should be dead. The reason is obvious its a editorial decision to keep plans for future stories intact. The problem comes when you have to big examples of the opposite in Blob & Chamber.

Bobby is how Blob and Chamber should have played out. Wanda's woogie was said to make "as if they werent mutants anymore". So blob should have returned to a normal weight sans skin(like the last time he was powerless), or he should simply be a fat guy. If the fat is a part of his mutation how is his skin not also? Ch should be intact walking around normal the mutation never happening so no blow up or anything.

We suspend belief that these people are all still together. Technically the no mutants should have created a drastically different world. Not having mutation in common alot of these chars would never have crossed paths ever. But its cool that it didnt, cant change things to the point of being unrecognizable. But I'll just say that the results of being depowered should be consistant throughout.

Some simply had their powers turned off(Blob/Chamber), which makes it obvious it can be turned on later. Somes its pretty clearly removed like they never were mutants(Bobby). Two different results that'll confuse things later.

Not to mention the rediculousness of "mutant energy", but if DG is as good as peeps are saying I can definitely let it slide.

[Cowlander]

If Bobby's body could turn into pure ice, unlikely as that was, why couldn't it turn back to skin again? It's no more unbelievable that what happened the first time.

Cay
Apologies for double posting, but I'm trying to keep the replies seperate....

Thing is bobby's sec mutation(I know how alot hate it) was that he was no longer a flesh and blood being, For years I always thought he "turned" into ice. Only to find out alot of the time he was simply covering himself in ice. The secondary mutation was that his natural default state was as a being of ice. Remember how it started he was injured, instead of it healing normally it was healing ice. Cells organs everything made of ice. He was bald simply because artists are used to drawing im like that in ice form. Notice the way Lorrocca drew him as see thru.

He should be dead, if you go by the earlier examples of what Wanda's depowering does. I think the way hes portrayed is how it should be portrayed, youre simply human now. I think the other extreme example are simply to show how serious a thing this is. Its been said for years that Chamber doesnt have a heart or lungs or anything in that area. Hes dead for all intents and purposes his power was what kept him alive.

Post to long more later.

[Beast]

No bobby was made completely of ice so following the exampless of Blob and Chamb he should be dead. The reason is obvious its a editorial decision to keep plans for future stories intact. The problem comes when you have to big examples of the opposite in Blob & Chamber.

Bobby is how Blob and Chamber should have played out. Wanda's woogie was said to make "as if they werent mutants anymore". So blob should have returned to a normal weight sans skin(like the last time he was powerless), or he should simply be a fat guy. If the fat is a part of his mutation how is his skin not also? Ch should be intact walking around normal the mutation never happening so no blow up or anything.

We suspend belief that these people are all still together. Technically the no mutants should have created a drastically different world. Not having mutation in common alot of these chars would never have crossed paths ever. But its cool that it didnt, cant change things to the point of being unrecognizable. But I'll just say that the results of being depowered should be consistant throughout.

Some simply had their powers turned off(Blob/Chamber), which makes it obvious it can be turned on later. Somes its pretty clearly removed like they never were mutants(Bobby). Two different results that'll confuse things later.

Not to mention the rediculousness of "mutant energy", but if DG is as good as peeps are saying I can definitely let it slide.
That's incorrect. The last time that the High Evolutionary removed powers, that left Blob looking the same way. Blob lost his mutant weight and his skin's invulnerabilty. But due to the fact his skin was stretched due to his mutation, when it got removed he was left with the skin. Chamber's was physical damage to his body as a bi-product of his powers. It blew his jaw and chest off. Remove the power, and he still has the damage from the event. And yes, the mutant gene was totally removed, not just turned off.

Now as for Bobby, he was just stuck in his organic Ice Form. By removing his mutation, he reverted to human and flesh and blood. There was no physical damage to deal with from his mutation. It would be no different than removing Colossus' powers, and having him revert from organic Steel to flesh and blood because of it. So Bobby reverting to human makes total sense and is consistant to what happened with Chamber and Blob.

[Cowlander]

That's incorrect. The last time that the High Evolutionary removed powers, that left Blob looking the same way. Blob lost his mutant weight and his skin's invulnerabilty. But due to the fact his skin was stretched due to his mutation, when it got removed he was left with the skin. Chamber's was physical damage to his body as a bi-product of his powers. It blew his jaw and chest off. Remove the power, and he still has the damage from the event. And yes, the mutant gene was totally removed, not just turned off.



Then I'm remebering something different then. I distinctly remember Blob loosing his powers and loosing the weight + the skin. Like I said why would the fat itself be part of his mutation but not the skin. I know its a comic but thats so wierd a decision to make storywise it just sticks out.

For Bobby, like I said I think he was done right. Its just that when you look at how he was handled compared to Chamb and Blob to me it doesnt make sense. Maybe it does to you but to me its two totally different ways of resolving the depowering. Seperately they work fine, but together they contradict each other and I dont see why they should. I quess its just Wanda at work again.

[Cayman]

Bobby's body isn't really damaged by his powers the way Blob's or Chamber's are. It is just transformed.

Cay

[Neolucifer]

For Bobby, like I said I think he was done right. Its just that when you look at how he was handled compared to Chamb and Blob to me it doesnt make sense. Maybe it does to you but to me its two totally different ways of resolving the depowering. Seperately they work fine, but together they contradict each other and I dont see why they should. I quess its just Wanda at work again.

I disagree as well with you , bobby wasnt born as naturally made of ice , it was a part of mutation , or rather sec mutation . Depowered he revert to exactly how his body was before the mutation , or was supposed to be .. depowered he doesnt become a lifeless block of ice . Look at Beak as well , by your logic , his nose should be missing , as it was completely made as a Bird's beak , or said in another way was simply a bone . And this isnt how it worked . The way bobby was , the only scar he would get from M-day , would have been if something , like loosing a leg in an accident involving his mutation had happened .

[Cowlander]

I disagree as well with you , bobby wasnt born as naturally made of ice , it was a part of mutation , or rather sec mutation . Depowered he revert to exactly how his body was before the mutation , or was supposed to be .. depowered he doesnt become a lifeless block of ice . Look at Beak as well , by your logic , his nose should be missing , as it was completely made as a Bird's beak , or said in another way was simply a bone . And this isnt how it worked . The way bobby was , the only scar he would get from M-day , would have been if something , like loosing a leg in an accident involving his mutation had happened .
Uhmm youre actually agreeing with me....

[geewaiho]

in regards to xmen with great fighting skills do not discount psylocke with her mad ninja/martial art skills. Also storm should be taken into consideration, though her skill is obviously no where near as great as wolvies but she had shown throughout the years she aint not slouch either.

[Neolucifer]

Uhmm youre actually agreeing with me....
Well you were saying that bobby should die , being made of ice , and also that the various depowering shown so far are contradicting themselves and dont make sense . The way i see it they still follow the same rules so far .

[The Fury]

Right so....this was good. Nice follow to the HoM Day after...I guess. although the point of the Sentinels is explained in every other book. :rolleyes:

Art still sucks.

[Cayman]

Right so....this was good. Nice follow to the HoM Day after...I guess. although the point of the Sentinels is explained in every other book. :rolleyes:

Art still sucks.

I don't think that the Sentinels have actually been explicitly explained before this issue though. We had hints, but they never came out and said it.

Cay

[The Fury]

I don't think that the Sentinels have actually been explicitly explained before this issue though. We had hints, but they never came out and said it.

Cay
No, but if you are like me adn read the comics I got his week (all comic fromlast 2 weeks) not in the order of continuity, it kind of messes up....although the story in this is not yet finished and even then it's explained in the other comics.