So who are the Watchmen originaly based on? [Archive]

lukewarmwater

11-12-2005, 11:06 PM

I heard they were based other superheroes when it was first pitched. Who were the superheroes they were based on?

kossori

11-12-2005, 11:08 PM

The Charlton heroes which had been recently acquired from, well, Charlton comics.

* The Comedian (Edward Blake), adapted from the Peacemaker.
* Doctor Manhattan (Jon Osterman), adapted from Captain Atom.
* Nite Owl I (Hollis Mason), adapted from Blue Beetle (Dan Garrett).
* Nite Owl II (Dan Dreiberg), adapted from Blue Beetle (Ted Kord).
* Ozymandias (Adrian Veidt), adapted from Thunderbolt.
* Rorschach (Walter Kovacs), adapted from The Question.
* Silk Spectre I and II (Sally Juspeczyk, and later Laurie Juspeczyk), adapted from Nightshade

The Shadow

11-12-2005, 11:40 PM

IIRC DC didn't want Moore "corrupting" the new aqusitions so he altered them slightly.

Paradox

11-13-2005, 12:22 AM

No, Alan would have been just as happy using the Charlton characters (although it would have been a different story). But DC had plans for them, so they had him come up with his "own" characters.

EDIT: AAAAAND, that's exactly what you said. For some reason I dyslexized it into Moore not wanting DC to corrupt them. And I don't even HAVE dyslexia! :o

lukewarmwater

11-13-2005, 01:17 AM

So, is this right?
http://www.internationalhero.co.uk/t/thunbosm.jpghttp://www.comixfan.com/xfan/images/columns/top70dccharacters/27.jpg

http://www.internationalhero.co.uk/q/questism.jpghttp://www.comixfan.com/xfan/images/columns/top70dccharacters/22.jpg

lukewarmwater

11-13-2005, 01:20 AM

http://www.internationalhero.co.uk/c/capatosm.jpghttp://www.a-arca.com/v2/images/gibi_artigo_watchmen_caos_ordem_05_pq.gif

http://www.internationalhero.co.uk/b/blubeesm.jpghttp://www.burburinho.com/img/nn030914b.jpg

lukewarmwater

11-13-2005, 01:22 AM

http://www.internationalhero.co.uk/p/peacesm.jpghttp://continuum.altervista.org/comedian.gif

http://www.internationalhero.co.uk/n/nitshasm.jpghttp://www.yeray-muaddib.com/watchmen/vineta6.jpg

Paradox

11-13-2005, 04:41 AM

Pretty much, yeah. There were other little bits drawn from elsewhere, of course. For example, the relationship between the two Silk Spectre's is more than reminiscent of the Black Canary stuff (post-Crisis). The second Nite-Owl's relationship with the Twilight Lady echoes a Batman/Catwoman thing. The original Nite-Owl was a creation of Gibbon's, I believe, from when he was a child.

But, yeah, predominantly they're the Charlton crew.

BTW, the Ozymandius and Rorschach pics must be hosted on a site that doesn't allow direct links, 'cause they're not showing up.

PatrickG

11-13-2005, 05:16 AM

Hellpop

11-13-2005, 01:10 PM

Funny thing is that DC found out it didn't own Thunderbolt.

If they HAD let Moore go ahead with this story using the Charlton heroes, DC wouldn't be able to reprint it the way they have without paying royalties on Thunderbolt.

Really? Did they find that out after they published his series? And do they now have to pay PAM (his creator) for royalties on Crisis, for his brief appearance?

hangmanjury

11-13-2005, 02:27 PM

Moore keeps saying that the idea for Watchmen originated with the MLJ/Archie heroes, the Mighty Crusaders, in mind, and had even thought up a version that used the THUNDER Agents. That having been said, they ARE predominantly Charlton, and Moore and Gibbons' first proposal used the Charlton characters, with pages upon pages of psychological profiling for each character - except for Nightshade, who Moore admitted he knew little to nothing about.

As far as alterations went, Nite Owl was the most like his basis - the Blue Beetle - while Silk Spectre resembled, if anyone, the Black Canary more than she did Nightshade. Of course, the others were altered as well.

Brian Cronin

11-13-2005, 02:36 PM

Here (http://goodcomics.blogspot.com/2005/10/comic-book-urban-legends-revealed-20.html)'s a write-up on the Archie/MLJ involvement.

Essentially, though, he used the Archie/MLJ characters in his mind when he envisioned the project, but really, he just wanted to use an out of business group of heroes. When DC purchased Charlton, Moore had an actual opportunity, so that's why it is the Charlton heroes who he actually solidly based them on, as they were the first time he had a real chance to turn the project from an idea into a reality.

-Brian

roguespirit

11-13-2005, 03:05 PM

Dc did a truly aweful miniseries called LAW, which was an attempt to make a team out of their old Charlton acquisitions. The covers went together to form the image below.

http://heroes.chez-alice.fr/g-spotl/images/law.jpg

Blue Beetle; The Question; Peacemaker; Nightshade; Judo Master; Captain Atom are all there.

LordEd1976

11-13-2005, 03:52 PM

Brian Cronin

11-13-2005, 04:00 PM

In 1999, I believe.

I was really looking forward to it, too.

Why did it stink so much?!?! WHY?!?!?!

-Brian

Tadhg

11-13-2005, 04:06 PM

In 1999, I believe.

I was really looking forward to it, too.

Why did it stink so much?!?! WHY?!?!?!

-Brian

Because Blue Beetle is not a living assault weapon no matter how you look at it.

The Shadow

11-13-2005, 04:33 PM

EDIT: AAAAAND, that's exactly what you said. For some reason I dyslexized it into Moore not wanting DC to corrupt them. And I don't even HAVE dyslexia! :o
LMAO

:D :D :D

I do that too sometimes

Zero Hunter

11-13-2005, 05:07 PM

I hated L.A.W. !! that was when they first started messing with Captain Atoms costume and jesus just look at poor Nightshade.

Gingold

11-13-2005, 05:09 PM

Has the LAW been acknowledged as being in-continuity in any other title? God, it might have been the worst comic I've ever read. And I've read Fantastic Force.

hangmanjury

11-13-2005, 05:35 PM

Has the LAW been acknowledged as being in-continuity in any other title? God, it might have been the worst comic I've ever read. And I've read Fantastic Force.
Oh dear. If it's that bad, I might snag a copy from the quarter bins. They ought to provide good material for a brownie night.

Brian Cronin

11-13-2005, 05:37 PM

I don't think LAW has ever been brough up.

Heck, I think Bob Layton doesn't even mention it on his website.

It has been erased from our minds!

-Brian

Paul Newell

11-13-2005, 05:40 PM

I vaguely remember that by about the 3rd issue it was decided that the mini wasn't in continuity. Not in the actual comic, but because sales and reviews were so bad. The last two issues barely made it to the stands.

JeffreyWKramer

11-13-2005, 05:57 PM

Oh dear. If it's that bad, I might snag a copy from the quarter bins. They ought to provide good material for a brownie night.

Don't bother. It isn't the funny sort of awful - like, say, SHOWGIRLS, or a Rob Liefeld comic. It's more along the lines of being trapped into watching somebody who really isn't funny doing a stand-up routine, or having sex with somebody with really awful hygiene.

L.A.W. is a truly awful book, and given the talent behind it, I'm still perplexed as to just how it ended up so awful. I'd rate it with the wretched Thomas/Mandrake SHAZAM! THE NEW BEGINNING in terms of comics which just did everything wrong.

Paradox

11-13-2005, 05:58 PM

roguespirit utters blasphemy:

Dc did a truly aweful miniseries called LAW, which was an attempt to make a team out of their old Charlton acquisitions.

We do not speak of such abominations. :eek:

Paradox

11-13-2005, 06:01 PM

JeffreyWKramer hasn't heard this story?:

L.A.W. is a truly awful book, and given the talent behind it, I'm still perplexed as to just how it ended up so awful.

The word I've gotten is that there was HEAVY editorial interference and the title didn't even come close to what Bob and Dick had in mind. If that's true, I can understand how such talent turned out such dreck.

hangmanjury

11-13-2005, 06:04 PM

Don't bother. It isn't the funny sort of awful - like, say, SHOWGIRLS, or a Rob Liefeld comic. It's more along the lines of being trapped into watching somebody who really isn't funny doing a stand-up routine, or having sex with somebody with really awful hygiene.

L.A.W. is a truly awful book, and given the talent behind it, I'm still perplexed as to just how it ended up so awful. I'd rate it with the wretched Thomas/Mandrake SHAZAM! THE NEW BEGINNING in terms of comics which just did everything wrong.
I do actually have a copy of that Shazam series.

Lord, that was bad.

JeffreyWKramer

11-13-2005, 06:07 PM

I do actually have a copy of that Shazam series.

Lord, that was bad.
LAW is just as bad, perhaps worse.

K'Nort

11-14-2005, 11:33 AM

I love how there is a handful of us here who were subjected to LAW and the scarring comes up in pretty much every conversation involving Charlton characters or The Question. Just can't help it. GAH!!!!

Shellhead

11-14-2005, 12:05 PM

One of the first ads for the Watchmen, during the Crisis, depicted the actual Charlaton characters, not the ones that Moore created for the series. I wonder if I can find a scan of that picture somewhere on the internet.

Tadhg

11-14-2005, 12:06 PM

K'Nort

11-14-2005, 02:16 PM

Would I be disowned if I said that LAW didn't bother me?

Well duh.

.....

mgs

09-22-2007, 11:59 PM

* Rorschach (Walter Kovacs), adapted from The Question.

Ah, close, but wrong.
You need to see the recent BBC show (sorry, forget which segment, but it's in there! ;) ) on Ditko to see whom Rorchach was based on, by Alan Moore himself! :)

http://pwbeat.publishersweekly.com/blog/2007/09/22/in-search-of-steve-ditko

Froggy

09-23-2007, 04:05 AM

amazing stuff. knew dr manhattan=CA

hangmanjury

09-23-2007, 04:38 AM

Ah, close, but wrong.
You need to see the recent BBC show (sorry, forget which segment, but it's in there! ;) ) on Ditko to see whom Rorchach was based on, by Alan Moore himself! :)

http://pwbeat.publishersweekly.com/blog/2007/09/22/in-search-of-steve-ditko
The Question was the "original" inspiration, but when asked to change the characters, Moore drew more and more on Mr. A because the extremeness was more interesting.

king mob

09-23-2007, 05:21 AM

The Question was the "original" inspiration, but when asked to change the characters, Moore drew more and more on Mr. A because the extremeness was more interesting.

Indeed, the Jonny Ross programme (In Search Of Steve Ditko)did mention Moore drew a lot from Mr. A, but it was The Question that was the starting point.

Nessor Sille

09-23-2007, 07:34 AM

IIRC, Layton said during an interview that brought up the awfulness of LAW that the original proposal for the mini would have involved showing each character as they were at the moment Charlton went defunct, then showed how they evolved into the somewhat different versions seen later in DC Comics.

The interviewer didn't quite get what he meant, attempts to clarify lead to a very convoluted explanation that seemed sort of like they were trying to do what Alan Moore did during his Supreme revamp, but that got stopped. So they had to start over from scratch, ended up throwing something together with the JLA being kidnapped by a cosmic villain. Whee.