Have you read the Most Important book today?

[DanH]

Have you read the most important book out today?....It has the power to change people from within..Is used in the courts....and there are more copies printed and sold worldwide then any other book but have you read it?

I am of course refering to THE BIBLE

[Dennis K]

I thought that Jeff Jarrett had written a book.

[Gilda Dent]

Have you read the most important book out today?....It has the power to change people from within..Is used in the courts....and there are more copies printed and sold worldwide then any other book but have you read it?

I am of course refering to THE BIBLE

Are you sure about that? When I saw the OP, my first thought was that you'd be talking about Everybody Poops by by Taro Gomi, Amanda Mayer Stinchecum (translator).

Still, the Bible makes a good choice, too. It's a matter of taste, I think.

Gilda

[Slam_Bradley]

Nahhh...I'm waiting for the movie.

[Deathstroke]

No, there's far better fiction out there.

[Mike Pothier]

Have you read the most important book out today?....It has the power to change people from within..Is used in the courts....and there are more copies printed and sold worldwide then any other book but have you read it?

I am of course refering to THE BIBLE

Is it on Oprah's list?

[Sanagi]

I'm sorry, if it doesn't have ninjas and techno music I just can't be bothered.

[Solaris]

Actually, it's a collection of many books, the total number of them depending on which version you read.

Now, if you wish to talk about the Bible's literary contributions, I'm fine with that. It is indeed a collection of books that has had great effect on literature and many cultures through various ages. I don't mind if you also wish to discuss various aspects of it, though some such discussions might well fit better on the community forum than this one.

However, if your mission is to proseltyze a particular religion, then this is definitely not the appropriate place for it. CBR is worldwide, and multicultural in it's forum posters, and the beliefs of various posters are respected here. If you wish to discuss religion, it's usually done on the Community Forum, and occasionally on other forums like YABS (You'll All Be Sorry). We have many devout people here of various faiths, including many Christians, and again, while discussion of religion is okay, proseltyzing is not.

Dan, I am not certain of your intent, based on your original post, so I thought I'd simply step in and give you some of the finer details, since you're new here, and hope that you take them in the helpful spirit they are intended. :)

(FYI, I'm one of this forum's two moderators.)

[Tages]

Have you read the most important book out today?....It has the power to change people from within..Is used in the courts....and there are more copies printed and sold worldwide then any other book but have you read it?

I am of course refering to THE BIBLE
Just to let you know, you're opening yourself up to some snide, pseudo-clever commentary with this.

[Tages]

No, there's far better fiction out there.
I spoke too soon.

[Solaris]

Just to let you know, you're opening yourself up to some snide, pseudo-clever commentary with this.

Perhaps, if people take it as proseltyzing, which it could easily be, since it reads like something from a ministry's billboard or flyer. However, I'm giving him the benefit of the doubt on that; we'll see where he goes with it.

In the meantime, let's all try to keep this discussion respectful and civil, okay? (And that's not aimed specifically at you, Tages, it's for everyone, whether they've responded in this thread or not.)

[K'Nort]

A couple years ago, I decided to try reading it for the first time. I picked up two laid-back study guides (one of the Dummies books and something similar) and went through chapter-by-chapter.

Halfway through Leviticus, I started grad school so that was the end of that.


My high school English teacher (I don't remember whether it was junior or senior year or both because I had her both years) had us read Genesis and Exodus and maybe a gospel and do dialectic journals, which meant just writing down random responses to what we read. Didn't matter how snarky or useless; it was just to prove we were reading it. She was an atheist herself, but the point -- and it was her idea, not mandated by the Board -- was that the thing had a HUGE influence on literature so it was helpful to know the stuff. Like when we read Grapes of Wrath. Being able to recognize the symbolism. Plus a lot of literature quotes the stuff left and right. And in that community, the majority of the class was reading it all for the first time, so it was pretty helpful. We didn't discuss it at all; that would have really been risky and didn't really fit the purpose anyway.

[Zeta]

I thought you were talking about "Dianetics" . . .



Actually, I've read a really interesting adaptation of the Bible because it improves on many of the book's flaws and makes the stories and characters more interesting. It's called "The Chronicles of Narnia" and I suggest everyone skip over the bible and just read those instead.

Or you could just read Anne Rice's new book. I hear the part where Jesus fights off an army of gay vampires is really exhilerating.

[Solaris]

I thought you were talking about "Dianetics" . . .



Actually, I've read a really interesting adaptation of the Bible because it improves on many of the book's flaws and makes the stories and characters more interesting. It's called "The Chronicles of Narnia" and I suggest everyone skip over the bible and just read those instead.

Or you could just read Anne Rice's new book. I hear the part where Jesus fights off an army of gay vampires is really exhilerating.


Not to thread drift, but I read in Entertainment Weekly that Ms. Rice has had a conversion back to her Catholic roots, which had a lot to do with her latest book. There were also several religious scholars who have praised her book, in terms of the in depth research she did for it.

One wonders what her die-hard vampire fans will make of it.

[JeffreyWKramer]

Have you read the most important book out today?....It has the power to change people from within..Is used in the courts....and there are more copies printed and sold worldwide then any other book but have you read it?

I am of course refering to THE BIBLE

I've read it multiple times. As a piece of literature/mythology, it's pretty good. For historical and cultural understanding, it's essential. As an overall guide for how one might live his or her life, it isn't awful, but it sure leaves a lot to be desired. It isn't infallible. It doesn't contain all the answers, and some parts of it are morally backward. It was created by fallible human beings.

This is my opinion. If yours differs, fine.

[Puma]

like Jeffrey I've read it many times, primarily for its historical role in the shaping of western culture, if you're inquiring if I've read it for a spiritual purpose then no. Nor do I believe its the most important, greatest, *insert your adjective here* book ever created, I don't believe anyone can point to one book and say "this is the ...." it depends upon one's personal tastes/beliefs, culture, and region.

[ghostrider666]

Have you read the most important book out today?....It has the power to change people from within..Is used in the courts....and there are more copies printed and sold worldwide then any other book but have you read it?

I am of course refering to THE BIBLE

Yeah, didnt like the punchlines.

[dougputhoff]

I thought the most important book was How to Pick Up Girls.

[darkkeeperjr]

Yeah i read it. Loved the ending, I like the way that you becomes one of the charters in the book towards the end, and the author seems to speak directly at you.

If you read between the lines I think you get more out of it. Can't wait till the next book is read aloud by the main charter in the story.I heard he will read from his new book whick is called "THE BOOK OF LIFE" :)

[Roquefort Raider]

Like Jeffrey, I really appreciate the Bible because of its historical and sociological importance. I read it many times cover to cover (back when I was a good catholic, lo, many decades ago).

Not to bash religion, here, but I should add that reading and re-reading the bible was an important factor in my ceasing to believe in any supreme being. That's not to say I view the Bible as unimportant, though, because it did have quite an impact on the development of western civilization.

I would heartily recommend "Isaac Asimov's guide to the Bible" to anyone interested in the historical background of many of the Bible's books, especially in the Old Testament.

[Takashi_Kurita]

Have you read the most important book out today?....It has the power to change people from within..Is used in the courts....and there are more copies printed and sold worldwide then any other book but have you read it?

I am of course refering to THE BIBLE

Yes.

It was some nice reading.

[Takashi_Kurita]

Not to bash religion, here, but I should add that reading and re-reading the bible was an important factor in my ceasing to believe in any supreme being.

Wierd. It had the opposite effect on me.

[Dennis K]

I wonder how the comments in this thread regarding religion would be different if instead of the Bible he would have said the Koran.

[Roquefort Raider]

I wonder how the comments in this thread regarding religion would be different if instead of the Bible he would have said the Koran.


Or the Bhagavad Gita, for that matter.

Or the Book of Mormon.

Or The Joy of Cooking.

I guess everyone has a "most important book of all". Mine certainly isn't the Bible.

[JeffreyWKramer]

I wonder how the comments in this thread regarding religion would be different if instead of the Bible he would have said the Koran.


I haven't read it as many times as I have the Bible, it hasn't had quite the impact on literature, and there are a few additional elements in the Koran to which I object, but the overall comments would be the same for me. Reading a wide variety of religious texts is one factor in how I arrived at the ideas I have about religion.

[CaptMagellan]

I found it a bit, expurgated. I think the editor (Jim Shooter maybe?) should have left in the rest of the story.

Luckily, some of the 'cutting room floor' bits have been saved and republished in "The Other Bible" compiled by Willis Barnstone. If the fanboys/girls put out enough of an outcry maybe Donald Grant publishers will do a special hardcover re-edition with the cut material. Maybe it'll have illustrations by Michael Whelan. :p

[Takashi_Kurita]

I wonder how the comments in this thread regarding religion would be different if instead of the Bible he would have said the Koran.

Well, regarding the immediete political situation, the Quran is probably more immedietly relevant than the Bible.

Long-term historically, the Bible is the most influential book of all time. In the last few decades, though, the Koran has influenced world events (especially in the Middle East, Southeast Asia, and Africa) more powerfully.

Whatever influence the Bible had on the western governments had been fading for a long time in the 20th century, and it's almost gone now in the 21st, W. Bush notwithstanding.

[The Mirrorball Man]

I don't think that Jesus really expects us to spend our time reading the Bible so that we can "change from within". I think he'd rather we help each other and try to become decent human beings.

[Dennis K]

Or the Bhagavad Gita, for that matter.

Or the Book of Mormon.

Or The Joy of Cooking.

I guess everyone has a "most important book of all". Mine certainly isn't the Bible.


My interest is based on what I perceive to be a lot of snarky comments that seem to always be made following a religious/Christian post. I was wondering if these people would respond the same, or if they wouldn't have the cajones to take the same kind of jabs. I may be wrong, but I doubt they would.

[CaptMagellan]

My interest is based on what I perceive to be a lot of snarky comments that seem to always be made following a religious/Christian post. I was wondering if these people would respond the same, or if they wouldn't have the cajones to take the same kind of jabs. I may be wrong, but I doubt they would.

I don't think I've ever seen a post prostelytizing any religion except Christianity.

I've never seen anyone preach the glory of Islam, Hinduism, etc.

The only posts I've ever seen have been people trying to convert others to Christianity.

The only other areas of similar argument have been the Vegetarian/Meat eater threads or the political threads.

And everyone attacks everyone on those.

If someone came here preaching how the Koran was the best book in the world I would have posted a similar post to the one I posted here.

Same with any religious 'sales pitch' that is outside of a thread discussing the specifics of people's religions.

[Shellhead]

I don't think I've ever seen a post prostelytizing any religion except Christianity.

I've never seen anyone preach the glory of Islam, Hinduism, etc.

The only posts I've ever seen have been people trying to convert others to Christianity.

The only other areas of similar argument have been the Vegetarian/Meat eater threads or the political threads.

And everyone attacks everyone on those.

If someone came here preaching how the Koran was the best book in the world I would have posted a similar post to the one I posted here.

Same with any religious 'sales pitch' that is outside of a thread discussing the specifics of people's religions.

There was a guy who posted in the community forum here about Islam, claiming that they treated women better and their countries had more women in charge. He gave up after a couple of pages of people refuting his points and explaining why americans in particular would be disinterested in a religion about "submission."

[Mike Pothier]

I don't think I've ever seen a post prostelytizing any religion except Christianity.

I've never seen anyone preach the glory of Islam, Hinduism, etc.

The only posts I've ever seen have been people trying to convert others to Christianity.

Well, prostelytizing is one of the core components of the Christian faith. There are direct commandments on preaching the faith and converting others. How exactly one goes about doing that is a completely different story, and is up to interpretation.

[JeffreyWKramer]

Well, prostelytizing is one of the core components of the Christian faith. There are direct commandments on preaching the faith and converting others.

Doesn't keep it from being annoying, though.

[Puma]

I don't think I've ever seen a post prostelytizing any religion except Christianity.

I've never seen anyone preach the glory of Islam, Hinduism, etc.

The only posts I've ever seen have been people trying to convert others to Christianity.

The only other areas of similar argument have been the Vegetarian/Meat eater threads or the political threads.

And everyone attacks everyone on those.

If someone came here preaching how the Koran was the best book in the world I would have posted a similar post to the one I posted here.

Same with any religious 'sales pitch' that is outside of a thread discussing the specifics of people's religions.
what he said

[Mike Pothier]

Doesn't keep it from being annoying, though.

If the person talking to you can't take a hint, I agree completely. One of the things I always stress to others is that Jehovah's Witnesses only out to give the message. Its up to each person if they want to listen or not.

[Sanagi]

My interest is based on what I perceive to be a lot of snarky comments that seem to always be made following a religious/Christian post. I was wondering if these people would respond the same, or if they wouldn't have the cajones to take the same kind of jabs. I may be wrong, but I doubt they would.
At one point I wondered if I should feel guilty for making a kneejerk cynical remark. But then I reread the first post. It's a parroted marketing phrase. Spam.

[Dennis K]

At one point I wondered if I should feel guilty for making a kneejerk cynical remark. But then I reread the first post. It's a parroted marketing phrase. Spam.

I know what you mean, and I'm afraid I wasn't clear enough in my posts. I'm not interested in trying to "defend" DanH, my supposition was based on some of the comments made in response to his original post and not a defense of his post or an attack on the responses. I guess I'm guilty of deliberate thread drift, but I thought it was a legitimate question and one that could stimulate interesting conversation in an otherwise lifeless thread.

[shawnh]

I thought this was going to be about Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy.

[Takashi_Kurita]

I don't think that Jesus really expects us to spend our time reading the Bible so that we can "change from within". I think he'd rather we help each other and try to become decent human beings.

Well, according to the only actual, recorded words of his we have, it's niether.

Instead, he wants us to go forth and make disciples of all the nations, do good works that they might glorify thier father in heaven, go forth and preach the gospel, love one another as he loved us, go forth and tell everyone what he has done, help the poor/sick/widows, go forth and baptize and teach all to obey his commandments... etc, etc.

Did I mention going forth and "proseletyzing", as it were? He seemed to have a bee in his helmet about that whole thing. Maybe, possibly, that's way so many Christians have a mad-on about "proseletyzing". Because, by and large, his most forceful and most direct commands to his followers were to go forth and do that very thing. I also seem to recall something about a person's faith being false and them being destined for eternal hellfire if they *dont* go forth and "proseletyze".

Perhaps bear this is mind next time you meet an annoying Christian. Food for thought.

[K'Nort]

I know what you mean, and I'm afraid I wasn't clear enough in my posts. I'm not interested in trying to "defend" DanH, my supposition was based on some of the comments made in response to his original post and not a defense of his post or an attack on the responses. I guess I'm guilty of deliberate thread drift, but I thought it was a legitimate question and one that could stimulate interesting conversation in an otherwise lifeless thread.

People with a generally Christian background, even if it's just the dominant surrounding culture, are not going to be as comfortable attacking some other belief system. They feel totally entitled to attack their own; it's theirs. Somebody's else's -- that's risking assorted kinds of tacky, rude, ignorant, etc.

[Roquefort Raider]

I guess I'm guilty of deliberate thread drift, but I thought it was a legitimate question and one that could stimulate interesting conversation in an otherwise lifeless thread.

I think that could be defined as "legitimate thread drift". Your question was certainly valid.

We had a thread of a similar nature not that long ago... with a scientologist! (Not that I consider scientology to be a religion in the same sense as christianity, islam or hinduism; but to the poster in question it certainly was "real").

I think it's safe to say that the majority of posters here have a similar response to most posts that seem to actively promote one religion over the others. Of course, just because we live in a society with a dominant judeo-christian culture, most religious-sounding posts (and the responses thereto) are about christianity. It's just statistics, not because of a true bias against christianity in particular.

[The Mirrorball Man]

Did I mention going forth and "proseletyzing", as it were?
I guess you did. And yeah, he did put some emphasis on proselityzing. As a Christian, I'm bound to take that into account. But in my opinion, you can't make anybody change their mind by lecturing them. You certainly can't convert anyone that way. If, on the other hand, you behave like a decent human being, you help others when they're in need and you seem to be happy about it, maybe, just maybe other people will notice and ask you why you're like that. I mean, if Christianity doesn't work, if it doesn't make you a better person, and if it doesn't make the world a better place, there's no point in following it, right? As a Christian, if I can't teach by example, I think I'd better shut my mouth.

[JeffreyWKramer]

Well, according to the only actual, recorded words of his we have, it's niether.

Instead, he wants us to go forth and make disciples of all the nations, do good works that they might glorify thier father in heaven, go forth and preach the gospel, love one another as he loved us, go forth and tell everyone what he has done, help the poor/sick/widows, go forth and baptize and teach all to obey his commandments... etc, etc.

Did I mention going forth and "proseletyzing", as it were? He seemed to have a bee in his helmet about that whole thing. Maybe, possibly, that's way so many Christians have a mad-on about "proseletyzing". Because, by and large, his most forceful and most direct commands to his followers were to go forth and do that very thing. I also seem to recall something about a person's faith being false and them being destined for eternal hellfire if they *dont* go forth and "proseletyze".

Perhaps bear this is mind next time you meet an annoying Christian. Food for thought.

Sorry, but that rationale doesn't earn the Christian any sort of pass from me. Their believing they have a mission doesn't mean I have to happily smile as annoying prats try to spread the word to me unbidden.

I wonder how many Christians would be pleased if Wiccans or Buddhists of Moslems or athiests started leaving literature inside their front doors, or coming to their homes to spread the word. My guess is that a great many of them would take great umbrage at this. I know when I used to take that tactic toward the Mormon and Jehovah' Witness missionaries that would interrupt my time, they were not happy and often rudely refused to give me equal time to spread the word of evolution and comparative religion as they requested me pay their propaganda.

[Nate C.]

You know it's funny.

I've never felt the need to go into a thread about masterbation or drinking or polytheism and commenced to announce my indignation.

find a thread calling the bible the most important book and some (not all) feel the need to take issue.

hmmm.

[The Mirrorball Man]

You know it's funny.

I've never felt the need to go into a thread about masterbation or drinking or polytheism and commenced to announce my indignation.

find a thread calling the bible the most important book and some (not all) feel the need to take issue.

hmmm.
"hmmm" my ass. If you started a thread calling masturbation "the most important human activity", people would be up in arms. This has nothing to do with religion. People on message boards don't like to see personal opinions stated as facts, especially in thread titles. I mean, if you've started your thread by saying that the Bible is the most important book, what's left to say except for "I don't agree"?

[JeffreyWKramer]

I mean, if you've started your thread by saying that the Bible is the most important book, what's left to say except for "I don't agree"?


I think one can make a good argument that the Bible is the "most important book" in terms of cultural/historical influence. That shouldn't offend anyone in any manner, and could well lead to some excellent discussion.

The intent of the initial post in this thread was obviously something quite different from that, though.

[The Mirrorball Man]

I think one can make a good argument that the Bible is the "most important book" in terms of cultural/historical influence. That shouldn't offend anyone in any manner, and could well lead to some excellent discussion.

The intent of the initial post in this thread was obviously something quite different from that, though.
Exactly. Nobody likes a rigged game. Your idea is much more interesting.

[Nate C.]

"hmmm" my ass. If you started a thread calling masturbation "the most important human activity", people would be up in arms. This has nothing to do with religion. People on message boards don't like to see personal opinions stated as facts, especially in thread titles. I mean, if you've started your thread by saying that the Bible is the most important book, what's left to say except for "I don't agree"?

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA HA.

I think one can make a good argument that the Bible is the "most important book" in terms of cultural/historical influence. That shouldn't offend anyone in any manner, and could well lead to some excellent discussion.

The intent of the initial post in this thread was obviously something quite different from that, though.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA HA.

[JeffreyWKramer]

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA HA.



HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA HA.


So, Nate, what about my statement would anyone find offensive? It doesn't say the Bible is only important in cultural/historical terms - which might offend those who view it as more tha that - and it also doesn't get into the preachiness and perceived superiority which many find offensive about the proselytizing Christians - so it shouldn't offend the non-Christians either.

[Ed Cunard]

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA HA.

I'm confused--who would be offended by that last bit by Kramer? The King James is tits--tits, I say. I love it, it's important. I don't believe in it, but I dig the reading. I can't imagine anyone would say it wasn't influential in a cultural/historical/literary way, or be offended by the implication that it is.

Earlier:

I've never felt the need to go into a thread about masterbation or drinking or polytheism and commenced to announce my indignation.

I know you wouldn't go into a thread and do that, but others would. That's the nature of message boards--people see something they disagree with, and say it.

(Hey, I posted something the other day I'm curious as to your take on--it's the "Christmas under siege?" thread at the Comm--you were one of the people whose reactions I was hoping to get).

[The Mirrorball Man]

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH
Yeah, I'm a regular Bob Hope.

[Nate C.]

So, Nate, what about my statement would anyone find offensive? It doesn't say the Bible is only important in cultural/historical terms - which might offend those who view it as more tha that - and it also doesn't get into the preachiness and perceived superiority which many find offensive about the proselytizing Christians - so it shouldn't offend the non-Christians either.

the effort not to offend is it's own offense. Of course what you wrote isn't offensive, but you would stop him from saying more?

Seriously, Jeffrey, I'm not looking for a fight. (thanks for the vote by the way) but the air on this thread is simply ludicrous.

The guy wants to praise the book that means the most to him in his life and wants to share it with the world? Let him.

"The gospel, to those who are perishing, is foolishness, but to those of us who are being saved, it is the power of God." 1 Corinthians something, something.

"I am the way, the truth, and the life; no man comes to the Father except by me." John 14:6.

"In the beginning was the word and the word was with God, and the word was God." John 1:1.

"The light shone in the darkness, and the darkness comprehended it not." John 1:4.

Those verses are an offense to many.

You know how many things I read on CBR that offend me? Move along. This is a non-issue. You acknowledge the guy as a proselytzer. Good for him. Good for you.


Live and let live.

[Slam_Bradley]

Did I mention going forth and "proseletyzing", as it were?


Christianity...the Fuller Brush Company of religions.

[Nate C.]

(Hey, I posted something the other day I'm curious as to your take on--it's the "Christmas under siege?" thread at the Comm--you were one of the people whose reactions I was hoping to get).

1. Read my response to Kramer.

2. I promise to PM you about our earlier discussion.

3. I'm going right now to read what you wrote.

[Ed Cunard]

2. I promise to PM you about our earlier discussion.


I don't even remember our earlier discussion, so it'll be like opening presents Christmas morning.

[Dennis K]

Christianity...the Fuller Brush Company of religions.


This is the kind of snarky comment I was talking about.


Isn't it one of the tenets of Islam to "spread the word" as well?

[JeffreyWKramer]

the effort not to offend is it's own offense. Of course what you wrote isn't offensive, but you would stop him from saying more?


I wouldn't stop him from saying more, any more than I seek to stop anyone from expressing their own POV (excepting those rare few who overtly lie, of course - those I would stop, if I could), but by the same note, I think someone who wants to proselytize, or state the superiority or innate truth of his POV, such a person can expect to get a variety of responses to that - and that it's okay for those people to express themselves, too.

Seriously, Jeffrey, I'm not looking for a fight. (thanks for the vote by the way) but the air on this thread is simply ludicrous.

I don't see it as ludicrous. I see it as he expresses his POV, others do the same. As to the vote, you're welcome, but I assure you, it was well-earned.

The guy wants to praise the book that means the most to him in his life and wants to share it with the world? Let him.

Seems to me, Ben and Solaris are letting him, and nobody else is stopping him, either. But, this is a discussion board, and people are gonna express diverse views.

"The gospel, to those who are perishing, is foolishness, but to those of us who are being saved, it is the power of God." 1 Corinthians something, something.

"I am the way, the truth, and the life; no man comes to the Father except by me." John 14:6.

"In the beginning was the word and the word was with God, and the word was God." John 1:1.

"The light shone in the darkness, and the darkness comprehended it not." John 1:4.

Those verses are an offense to many.

Yup, they are. Those following them have the right to do so, and those disagreeing with them have a right to express the disagreement, and to object to the manner in which some choose to spread their messages.

[JeffreyWKramer]

This is the kind of comment I was talking about.


Isn't it one of the tenets of Islam to "spread the word" as well?
Yep. And if a Moslem started a thread about the Koran in the same manner as this fellow did re: the Bible, I would expect him or her to get a similar response.

Heck, Nate and I both did a fair bit of criticizing of some of the tenets of the Koran in a thread on Comm awhile back. Many others - including, very notably, Paul McEnery - took part as well, from a variety of POVs.

[Slam_Bradley]

This is the kind of comment I was talking about.


Isn't it one of the tenets of Islam to "spread the word" as well?


They haven't been beating on my door. If you're going door to door selling anything you're an annoyance. The fact that it is religion doesn't make it less annoying than magazine subscriptions or brush salesmen.

Don't knock on my door and I won't feel the need to be abrasive.

[Nate C.]

Heck, Nate and I both did a fair bit of criticizing of some of the tenets of the Koran in a thread on Comm awhile back. Many others - including, very notably, Paul McEnery - took part as well, from a variety of POVs.

Let me edit that:

What Jeffrey means is:

Paul and his Liberal Strike Force (he was flanked by at least four supporters at any given point not counting the fly-over strikes) defended the text,

I opposed it (alone)

and Jeffrey read it. :p

[JeffreyWKramer]

They haven't been beating on my door. If you're going door to door selling anything you're an annoyance. The fact that it is religion doesn't make it less annoying than magazine subscriptions or brush salesmen.

Don't knock on my door and I won't feel the need to be abrasive.

*Ding ding*!!

Same here. If I want to seek out the Good News, I'll read the Bible on my own, or turn on one of the evangelical TV stations, or go to church, or whatever. I'm not asking anyone to come to my door preaching, so they don't have any business coming to my house for that purpose. Should they choose to make it their business, I don't owe them any particular courtesy.

[Dennis K]

Yep. And if a Moslem started a thread about the Koran in the same manner as this fellow did re: the Bible, I would expect him or her to get a similar response.


Fair enough, but would you say that it's possible that Chrisitanity/Christians are more likely to be singled out for criticism and or "abuse" (for lack of a better word) on this board, almost to the point of "piling on"? I really do know what point I'm trying to get across here, I'm just doing an awful job of trying to state it clearly and accurately. I am, however, enjoying the discussion that has occured.

[JeffreyWKramer]

Let me edit that:

What Jeffrey means is:

Paul and his Liberal Strike Force (he was flanked by at least four supporters at any given point not counting the fly-over strikes) defended the text,

I opposed it (alone)

and Jeffrey read it. :p


I couldn't recall who else was taking Paul's side, and as I recall, I did join in some in the critique. I didn't take the front-line role - I'd say you did an admirable job at that, even if my issues with the Koran often generally come from a different perspective than your own.

[Dennis K]

They haven't been beating on my door. If you're going door to door selling anything you're an annoyance.

Are you speaking literally or figuratively here? As a semi-attentive Methodist, I can tell you that I've never heard the Minister tell the congregation to start going door to door to spread the word, it's more of a "let your life be your example" kind of thing.

[Slam_Bradley]

You know how many things I read on CBR that offend me? Move along. This is a non-issue. You acknowledge the guy as a proselytzer. Good for him. Good for you.



Nate, I love you Buddy. But I have to disagree with you here. If you're going to proselytize (and I think you can agree that that is what he's doing) you need to be prepared for people who don't agree with you to challenge you. If you're not prepared for that, you're either incredibly naive or you're simply unprepared for what you're supposed to be doing. Through adversity comes learning and strength. I have long felt it is my duty to give door-to-door proselytizers their trial by fire. If they're going to come to my door they need to have the tools to deal with me.

Now, CBR is my home away from home. I tend to avoid religious threads. But this isn't really a religious thread...it's a drive-by spamming. And honestly, to me there is no difference between a proselytizer and a magazine subscription salesman. They are both attempting to sell me something. One is simply selling religion. I don't have a lot of interest in buying religion or magazines. Yes, it's easier to avoid the threads on CBR than the Peckerwood knocking on my door. And usually I do. But I'm human...and sometimes I need to crack wise.

[Slam_Bradley]

Are you speaking literally or figuratively here? As a semi-attentive Methodist, I can tell you that I've never heard the Minister tell the congregation to start going door to door to spread the word, it's more of a "let your life be your example" kind of thing.


I'm talking literally. Mormon missionaries and JW's have a habit of knocking on doors. It's called tracting. It's very annoying.

I'm very live and let live about all religions...until you invade my personal space.

[JeffreyWKramer]

Fair enough, but would you say that it's possible that Chrisitanity/Christians are more likely to be singled out for criticism and or "abuse" (for lack of a better word) on this board, almost to the point of "piling on"? I really do know what point I'm trying to get across here, I'm just doing an awful job of trying to state it clearly and accurately. I am, however, enjoying the discussion that has occured.


I suppose it is possible, but I haven't seen it. The two faiths I've seen discussed the most often are Christianity and Islam, and I'd say there is as much defense in general as there is criticism. Some specific brands of Christianity - Catholicism and evangelical protestant Christianity - are somewhat more criticized, but this is usually (with the exception of a couple posters on the YABS "Shameful Gay Marriage Ban) in regard to specific policies and individuals within those faiths, or conduct in regard to specific issues (the Catholic sex abuse stuff, or gay rights/gay marriage, for example). Lots of people think the new Pope is a dick, and have presented reasons for this, but I've seen relatively few serious assertions of "Catholics are evil." Similarly, myself and some others have attacked the practice of supposed "Christian therapy" to "cure" gays, but I haven't seen for any calls for airstrikes against the Southern Baptist Congress.

Me, I'm very critical of the totalitarian and theocratic goals of folk like Falwell, Robertson, Wildmon, etc. I consider them dangerous to the core ideas of this nation. If there were Islamic folk taking the same stances and demonstrating the same goals, I'd be opposing them too.

In the "other religions" front, there is one poster in particular who goes out of his way to find and post threads about the evils of Islam. He gains some support, but generally a fair bit of criticism for his general bias. There's another guy who demonstrates a fairly subtle anti-Semitic bias behind his undying support of radical Palestinian causes, to mixed reviews and a fair bit of deserved criticism.

[Slam_Bradley]

Fair enough, but would you say that it's possible that Chrisitanity/Christians are more likely to be singled out for criticism and or "abuse" (for lack of a better word) on this board, almost to the point of "piling on"? I really do know what point I'm trying to get across here, I'm just doing an awful job of trying to state it clearly and accurately. I am, however, enjoying the discussion that has occured.


I think that you're absolutely correct. But it is also pretty darn understandable. Overall, Americans haven't been faced with Muslims, Hindus, Buddhists, etc. selling their religion. I'm not even sure if they do. Also, in today's PC world Christians are one of the few people you can make fun of without a great deal of grief. White males appear to be the other.

Personally, I think anyone is fair game for abuse.

[Nate C.]

They haven't been beating on my door. If you're going door to door selling anything you're an annoyance. The fact that it is religion doesn't make it less annoying than magazine subscriptions or brush salesmen.

Don't knock on my door and I won't feel the need to be abrasive.

Well, if you're talking actual doors to actual homes, then kudos, but if we're extending that analogy to threads on CBR, I don't think it applies.

In fact, if we retain the door analogy, what is happening is this-

some people came in this thread/door of his "home" and made snarky remarks.

Where I'm from, that's just rude. (which is why when I see a thread that I can ignore on general principle by it's very nature, I just move along.)

[JeffreyWKramer]

Are you speaking literally or figuratively here? As a semi-attentive Methodist, I can tell you that I've never heard the Minister tell the congregation to start going door to door to spread the word, it's more of a "let your life be your example" kind of thing.

I've not noticed a lot of Methodist missionaries, but there are faiths - the Jehovah's Witnesses and Mormons, to name two - who do a lot of door-ringing in order to spread the word.

[Dennis K]

I've not noticed a lot of Methodist missionaries


And I don't think you will either. We like to go in, sing a couple songs, listen to the minister for about 20 mintues and be out of there by noon, tops.

[Nate C.]

[QUOTE=Slam_Bradley]Nate, I love you Buddy. But I have to disagree with you here. If you're going to proselytize (and I think you can agree that that is what he's doing) you need to be prepared for people who don't agree with you to challenge you. If you're not prepared for that, you're either incredibly naive or you're simply unprepared for what you're supposed to be doing. Through adversity comes learning and strength. I have long felt it is my duty to give door-to-door proselytizers their trial by fire. If they're going to come to my door they need to have the tools to deal with me.

Slam, I actually posted on your ealier post before I saw this one, so what I wrote applies here, too.

(love you too.) In actual life, rock hard. I bring my game to the front door too. If a missionary comes to my door, I'm showing him my five bookcases full of religious texts before I so a Southpark on his faith.

Now, CBR is my home away from home.

This may be the sticking point for this discussion. We may disagree here, but I think a man's thread is his castle, not a man's board. If this guy wants to start a thread like he did, he should get a little more free reign and respect is my point. If I went around snarking on every thread I thought was out of line, I'd have no time to do anything else.


I tend to avoid religious threads. But this isn't really a religious thread...it's a drive-by spamming. And honestly, to me there is no difference between a proselytizer and a magazine subscription salesman. They are both attempting to sell me something. One is simply selling religion. I don't have a lot of interest in buying religion or magazines. Yes, it's easier to avoid the threads on CBR than the Peckerwood knocking on my door. And usually I do. But I'm human...and sometimes I need to crack wise.

and see, I don't see this as spamming or prosletyzing. I see it as earnest belief.

Two sides of the same coin. (and stop being human, would you?)

[Nate C.]

my typing skills suck today.

[Ed Cunard]

I'm talking literally. Mormon missionaries and JW's have a habit of knocking on doors. It's called tracting. It's very annoying.

I'm very live and let live about all religions...until you invade my personal space.

Get a territorial dog. They don't bother us anymore.

The one group that was nice about everything, though (I spoke with them on the porch), asked what Petey's problem was. I said, "he thinks he's a lion. We're looking into dog psychologists." They laughed, so they were cool with me and we chatted. I don't remember who they were with, though.

[Ed Cunard]

This may be the sticking point for this discussion. We may disagree here, but I think a man's thread is his castle, not a man's board. If this guy wants to start a thread like he did, he should get a little more free reign and respect is my point. If I went around snarking on every thread I thought was out of line, I'd have no time to do anything else.


I'm stuck, too. I'm of the "if it's for public consumption, it's for public discussion" idea. If I really cared about, say, DC's current direction or whatever like Jeffrey is, I'd probably be just as adamant regarding his stance to certain policies on certain boards and whatnot. At the same time, though, I think the house rules are defaults, and that's more of what's to be respected. Question the authority of the forum, but don't flout it--using civil disobedience on a comics forum is like using napalm on a home insect infestation. They're both overkill.

[CaptMagellan]

And I don't think you will either. We like to go in, sing a couple songs, listen to the minister for about 20 mintues and be out of there by noon, tops.

I have a personal anecdote that I recognize is NOT indicative of all Methodist churches but was pretty creepy.

A summer camp was announced a few years ago that my daughter wanted to go to because a bunch of her friends were going. It was sponsered by the local Methodist Church but was assured to be a secular gathering, not a 'bible' camp and that there would be no bible classes etc.

The camp turned out having mandatory bible classes each day and the only songs they sang were Christian songs.

My daughter felt intimidated into participating by both the counselors and the Christian kids.

Needless to say, we were pissed off and complained (we weren't the only parents who felt lied to).

Since then, the camp has been billed as a Christian 'revival' and people know what they are getting.

But I still think it was a sneaky way to prostelytize.

[Dennis K]

I have a personal anecdote that I recognize is NOT indicative of all Methodist churches but was pretty creepy.

A summer camp was announced a few years ago that my daughter wanted to go to because a bunch of her friends were going. It was sponsered by the local Methodist Church but was assured to be a secular gathering, not a 'bible' camp and that there would be no bible classes etc.

The camp turned out having mandatory bible classes each day and the only songs they sang were Christian songs.

My daughter felt intimidated into participating by both the counselors and the Christian kids.

Needless to say, we were pissed off and complained (we weren't the only parents who felt lied to).

Since then, the camp has been billed as a Christian 'revival' and people know what they are getting.

But I still think it was a sneaky way to prostelytize.


Maybe I'm too much of a cynic, but I'm not suprised. I mean if a church is sponsoring it, I don't care what they say, they're going to be looking to make it as much of a "church event" as they can. To me it's like a college fraternity announcing a huge kegger party by the pool but saying that nobody's going to get thrown in. I don't care what they say, somebody's going home wet.

[darkkeeperjr]

I don't think this guy is proselytizeing. I belive by starting this thread he was calling out to people who are bible reading folks like himself.

A lot of people said no to his question and the reasons why they don't read or belive the bible. Which is cool since almost everything gets dicuss here.

What seems wrong to me is when people run in to the thread tell some lame joke and run out again. when you know the subject matter is dear and close to him.

It's almost like someone starting a thread on how they like batman and Robin then in the second post someone says batman is gay. Well it's not really like that but it is the closest thing i can think of at the moment.

I don't want to say the subject matter shouldn't be joked about cause that don't sound right either.

I guess i was upset about the jokes, but know it's nothing to get upset about.


If I had a point I think I lost it.

Oh Well :p :p :p

[JeffreyWKramer]

Maybe I'm too much of a cynic, but I'm not suprised. I mean if a church is sponsoring it, I don't care what they say, they're going to be looking to make it as much of a "church event" as they can.

It doesn't surprise cynical me either, but I think a lot of people would expect a church to be more honest about their real motives than they would a fraternity.

[Takashi_Kurita]

I wonder how many Christians would be pleased if Wiccans or Buddhists of Moslems or athiests started leaving literature inside their front doors, or coming to their homes to spread the word. My guess is that a great many of them would take great umbrage at this.

Most of the ones I knew would welcome it, seeing it as an oppurtunity to share the gospel, in turn, with those same people.

Of course, I think the Christians I hang around with are slightly unusual, being a little more serious about thier mission than most.

[Takashi_Kurita]

"hmmm" my ass. If you started a thread calling masturbation "the most important human activity", people would be up in arms.


Well, I don't know about important, but it's certainly one of the most common, and frequent, human activities. :p

[Takashi_Kurita]

Isn't it one of the tenets of Islam to "spread the word" as well?

Yes. And the "word" of Islam is being spread, you know. Just not on this message board. But it is the fastest growing religion in the world, in terms of converts, currently.

[Takashi_Kurita]

They haven't been beating on my door. If you're going door to door selling anything you're an annoyance. The fact that it is religion doesn't make it less annoying than magazine subscriptions or brush salesmen.

Don't knock on my door and I won't feel the need to be abrasive.

The vast majority of conversions (both Islam and Christian) happen through word-of-mouth from friends, not by beating on the doors of strangers.

People are far more apt to listen to those close to them, that they trust, than to abrasive strangers.

[JeffreyWKramer]

Yes. And the "word" of Islam is being spread, you know. Just not on this message board. But it is the fastest growing religion in the world, in terms of converts, currently.


Last I heard, the fastest growing faith in the world was the Mormons. The CHRISTIAN SCIENCE MONITOR and one of the major news magazines independently reported that a couple years back.

[JeffreyWKramer]

The vast majority of conversions (both Islam and Christian) happen through word-of-mouth from friends, not by beating on the doors of strangers.

People are far more apt to listen to those close to them, that they trust, than to abrasive strangers.

Please, tell that to the JWs and the Mormons and the televangelists.

[atoningunifex]

When I was a kid I had a children's bible. It had some pretty cool (well, to my six and seven year old eyes at least) pictures. I read it all over the course of a year or so. I actually don't remember much of it. Religion has never been all that important to me personally. Or, rather, the practice of religion has never been all that personally important to me.

The problem I have with the Bible is the same I have with all the other religious texts and the works of William Shakespeare: people believe in them to such an extent that they refuse to accept any critcism- real or imagined. You can have very interesting discussions about religious texts (and I suppose Billy Shakes) but you cannot have those conversations with someone who fanatically believes in them.

Now lest you all think I don't know shit from shinola (which I don't, really. What the hell is shinola?) I will give my bonafides.

Religious prcatice is not in any way, shape or form important to me. But religion as a concept fascinates me. I've read on the subject. I've had deeply religious friends who were able to discuss things with me respectfully. I've had deeply religious friends who have told me I don't deserve life because I don't worship Jesus Christ. I even live with someone who performs in productions of Shakespeare.

I also spent about five years chatting ona daily basis in Yahoo's religion chat rooms. And you see it ALL there. I've seen amazing debates on the history and authenticity of the Bible. I've seen people talk about their faith. I've seen people attack people for different faiths. I've seen Christian fundies, Islamic fundies and once even a Buddhist fundie. I've been talked to, talked down to, lectured, illuminated and listened to. I've been sent articles on a Christian defense of the Holocaust. I've read websites about the gnostic gospels. I've talked to someone who makes miniture replicas of the Shroud of Turin as a hobby.

And with all that I have to say....in my experience....from my personal point of view....

This thread was started as fundie fodder. Notice that he does nothing but state that the Bible is the most important book and then ask if we've read it. He offers no personal insight, no invitation ot actual discussion and he hasn't posted again. He was not interested in engaging in discussion of the Bible. He wasn't interested in our expereinces with it. He just wanted us to know that it is the most important book and that we should read it.

Discussion has grown out of it. But the discussion is in spite of the start of the thread, not because of it.

I read the Bible when I was 6 or 7. I liked some of the stories. I wodnered at some of the motivations. In the subsequent 29 years I've read more and learned about its impact and all that jazz. It's nice that people believe in something. It's nice that a tradition grew out of it that led to the cutlure we have now. I personally, just me, think we've pretty much got the basics and our need to constantly refer back to the Bible and twist and turn it to fit our own particular worldviews is hurting us as a culture. The Bible was a book that grew and changed over centuries. But it is treated now as a complete thing that is the be all and end all. And that's sad. because that limits the evolution of the religions that follow it.

Those are just my opinions. Now if you'll excuse me I'm off to google shinola.

Edit: Shinola was a shoe polish. Go figure. Learn something new every day.

[Mike Pothier]

The vast majority of conversions (both Islam and Christian) happen through word-of-mouth from friends, not by beating on the doors of strangers.

People are far more apt to listen to those close to them, that they trust, than to abrasive strangers.

Actually, it DOES work. On average, around 5000 people a week get baptized in our faith. Not all of them through strangers, but a very large portion of them were. And all 5000 of those share something common. When somebody approached them with our message, they all genuinely WANTED to learn more. There was no coercion or pushing of any kind. THOSE are the people we are looking for.

[Takashi_Kurita]

Last I heard, the fastest growing faith in the world was the Mormons. The CHRISTIAN SCIENCE MONITOR and one of the major news magazines independently reported that a couple years back.

Are you sure they didn't mean the US?

I've been told that Mormonism is the fastest growing religion in the US, but Islam is growing the fastest overall, worldwide. Of course, such figures are always difficult to confirm.. since many of the countries where both religions are growing are third world countries where actually taking a religious census would be difficult, if not impossible, due to the lack of any societal infrastructure in place to do so.

Well, they're both growing very rapidly, regardless.

[Takashi_Kurita]

Actually, it DOES work. On average, around 5000 people a week get baptized in our faith. Not all of them through strangers, but a very large portion of them were. And all 5000 of those share something common. When somebody approached them with our message, they all genuinely WANTED to learn more. There was no coercion or pushing of any kind. THOSE are the people we are looking for.

Well, it does work. It's just not as effective as evangelism directed to close friends or people otherwise in your close circle of influence.

From polls I've seen listed among evangelical christians, something like 90% listed "friends" as the method used to reach them that led to thier conversion.

Other things, like giant conferences, door-knocking, TV-evangelists, tracts, etc... all recieved single-digit percentages.

[bert]

Have you read the most important book out today?....It has the power to change people from within..Is used in the courts....and there are more copies printed and sold worldwide then any other book but have you read it?

I am of course refering to THE BIBLE


Hmmm. . .

I don't know about "most important". .

but I do recall reading somewheres that the Bible is among the "most stolen" books in the world (from Hotel Rooms, Book Stores, and Churches).

[JeffreyWKramer]

Are you sure they didn't mean the US?

Nah, both sources also noted very active missionary work the Mormons are doing across the world.

[Rabid Trekkie]

It doesn't surprise cynical me either, but I think a lot of people would expect a church to be more honest about their real motives than they would a fraternity.

Yeah, that's a problem I think a lot of churches have. Heck one complaint some people have about my denomination (and I actually agree) is that when we do these big seminars over the satelitte and invite people to them, we don't say we're SDA because some people think we're a cult. So instead you go through almost a week of meetings before the name of our church even comes up.

Happy to say that it is slowly starting to change but it's still a problem.

[JeffreyWKramer]

Yeah, that's a problem I think a lot of churches have. Heck one complaint some people have about my denomination (and I actually agree) is that when we do these big seminars over the satelitte and invite people to them, we don't say we're SDA because some people think we're a cult. So instead you go through almost a week of meetings before the name of our church even comes up.

Happy to say that it is slowly starting to change but it's still a problem.


It *should* change, pronto. Call me silly, but it seems if some group is claiming to be propagating the truth, they shouldn't start out by engaging in evasion and deception.

[Rabid Trekkie]

It *should* change, pronto. Call me silly, but it seems if some group is claiming to be propagating the truth, they shouldn't start out by engaging in evasion and deception.

Completely agree. I'm just glad to see some change at all, these huge seminars while being held here in the U.S. reach around the world and as such are ordered by the president and the people who run the global body of my church. It's hard getting a world wide organization to change, but with some of the good press we've been getting (the national geographic article, the government asking all Adventists to do another health survey, getting some pastor or someone a religious spot on the U.N. for questions of religious liberty, etc) it seems the church as a whole feels a little bit more comfortable saying who we are at the beginning.

[Roquefort Raider]

Nah, both sources also noted very active missionary work the Mormons are doing across the world.

I think the confusion lies in singling mormonism from the rest of christianity. The polls I've seen and which mark islam as the fastest-growing religion in the world probably included mormonism in christianity. Since other christian denominations are losing ground, the net total has islam as the lead horse.

[JeffreyWKramer]

I think the confusion lies in singling mormonism from the rest of christianity. The polls I've seen and which mark islam as the fastest-growing religion in the world probably included mormonism in christianity. Since other christian denominations are losing ground, the net total has islam as the lead horse.

That could well be.

[Nate C.]

That could well be.

Islam is the fastest growing religion in the world.

Mormonism is the fastest growing in the U.S.

and the one thing you can get Seventh Day Adventists, Catholics, and all the rest of Christian sects and denominations in between to agree on is that Mormonism is a cult.

[CaptMagellan]

Depending on which polls, what data is being analyzed, and by what criteria, you get different results for what is the 'fastest growing' religion. Here's a page from religioustolerance.org on the phenomena of determining the 'fastest growing'.

http://www.religioustolerance.org/chr_prac2.htm

From the viewpoint of just percentages, according to RT.org, Wicca is the fastest growing.

"The fastest growing religion (in terms of percentage) is Wicca -- a Neopagan religion that is sometimes referred to as Witchcraft. Numbers of adherents went from 8,000 in 1990 to 134,000 in 2001. Their numbers of adherents are doubling about every 30 months."

Some of the islamic sites claiming Islam as the fastest growing are basing it on number of Mosques built as compared to non-Islamic temples/churches/synogogues/etc.

Like any polls, it's always important to know what's being measured, what methodology is being used, and who is sponsoring the poll.

Any statisticians out there with any insights?

[Nate C.]

Depending on which polls, what data is being analyzed, and by what criteria, you get different results for what is the 'fastest growing' religion. Here's a page from religioustolerance.org on the phenomena of determining the 'fastest growing'.

http://www.religioustolerance.org/chr_prac2.htm

From the viewpoint of just percentages, according to RT.org, Wicca is the fastest growing.

"The fastest growing religion (in terms of percentage) is Wicca -- a Neopagan religion that is sometimes referred to as Witchcraft. Numbers of adherents went from 8,000 in 1990 to 134,000 in 2001. Their numbers of adherents are doubling about every 30 months."

Some of the islamic sites claiming Islam as the fastest growing are basing it on number of Mosques built as compared to non-Islamic temples/churches/synogogues/etc.

Like any polls, it's always important to know what's being measured, what methodology is being used, and who is sponsoring the poll.

Any statisticians out there with any insights?

I'm talking sheer numbers of converts, not percentages.

[CaptMagellan]

I'm talking sheer numbers of converts, not percentages.

Do you (or anyone else) have any sources for those numbers, who's collecting/collating them?

I see a lot of articles and claims about this (referenced in news stories, Islamic websites, etc.) but I haven't seen anything on how they came by those numbers or why their claims are more valid than some Christian sites that argue that Islam doesn't have the raw numbers and that Christianity (as a whole) does - or,certain, Mormon claims that THEY are the fastest growing.

Does anyone have reference to any hard data on the subject?

[Nate C.]

Do you (or anyone else) have any sources for those numbers, who's collecting/collating them?

I see a lot of articles and claims about this (referenced in news stories, Islamic websites, etc.) but I haven't seen anything on how they came by those numbers or why their claims are more valid than some Christian sites that argue that Islam doesn't have the raw numbers and that Christianity (as a whole) does - or,certain, Mormon claims that THEY are the fastest growing.

Does anyone have reference to any hard data on the subject?

I don't have numbers in front of me.

I'm speaking out of my background and numbers that were thrown around in my degree/field. (Master of Divinity:Christian Education.)

as for Mormonism, Newsweek made the claim recently.

[Takashi_Kurita]

and the one thing you can get Seventh Day Adventists, Catholics, and all the rest of Christian sects and denominations in between to agree on is that Mormonism is a cult.

It's always seemed absurd to me that people label Mormonism a "cult". Just what the hell is cult-like about it?

It's another religion. I'm willing to go ahead and classify it as a religion seperate from Christianity, or as an offshoot, since it's core doctrine is so different. But "cult", why? It's just a seperate religion.

[Takashi_Kurita]

Depending on which polls, what data is being analyzed, and by what criteria, you get different results for what is the 'fastest growing' religion. Here's a page from religioustolerance.org on the phenomena of determining the 'fastest growing'.

http://www.religioustolerance.org/chr_prac2.htm

From the viewpoint of just percentages, according to RT.org, Wicca is the fastest growing.

"The fastest growing religion (in terms of percentage) is Wicca -- a Neopagan religion that is sometimes referred to as Witchcraft. Numbers of adherents went from 8,000 in 1990 to 134,000 in 2001. Their numbers of adherents are doubling about every 30 months."

This is probably the least meaningful data so far, however. "Wicca" is just a very broad umbrella term that covers a multitude of beliefs that have no central doctrine, no leadership, no formalized structure, and often are invented individually by each practitioner

IMO, even calling Wicca a religion is a misuse of the term religion. It's a filler-word. It's like saying that "Indigenous Religions" is a religion, when it's just a bag we through everything into that doesn't fit one of the 5 or 6 major ones.

[Nate C.]

It's always seemed absurd to me that people label Mormonism a "cult". Just what the hell is cult-like about it?

It's another religion. I'm willing to go ahead and classify it as a religion seperate from Christianity, or as an offshoot, since it's core doctrine is so different. But "cult", why? It's just a seperate religion.

It's considered a cult because it's self described as a Christian denomination (actually, self claims as the ONLY TRUE deonomination) yet doesn't pass the prerequisites for the core doctrine of the faith. (i.e. divinity of Christ, Trinitarian thought, I could go on and on.)

If Mormons want to call themselves a different religion than Christianity, they'll find a lot of happy Christians to agree, but as long as they call themselves a Christian sect/denomination, they'll get called a cult.

[Mike Pothier]

Technically, to be considered Christian, one only needs to follow the teachings of the Christ.

[Nate C.]

Technically, to be considered Christian, one only needs to follow the teachings of the Christ.

And those teachings are very specific.

And later codified.

And Mormonism doesn't come close to following those teachings. Seriously, this isn't even a debate. Mormonism simply doesn't follow the basic creedos of Christianity.

[Solaris]

This is probably the least meaningful data so far, however. "Wicca" is just a very broad umbrella term that covers a multitude of beliefs that have no central doctrine, no leadership, no formalized structure, and often are invented individually by each practitioner

IMO, even calling Wicca a religion is a misuse of the term religion. It's a filler-word. It's like saying that "Indigenous Religions" is a religion, when it's just a bag we through everything into that doesn't fit one of the 5 or 6 major ones.


I think you may be confusing "Wicca" with "Paganism." Paganism does indeed cover a very broad range of beliefs.

Wicca, however, does have a central doctrine that tends to carry over throughout its various branches, which includes the Wiccan Rede and the Law of Three. In fact, some denominations of Wicca are *quite* organized, structured, and even codified... and many of these have thousands of members across the country and around the world.

In fact, there's some dissention within Wicca itself, as to whether solitary practitioners qualify as Wiccan. IMO, they can very well be Wiccan; but you'll get varying opinions from different denominations of Wicca itself. Some denominations, like some Christian, Muslim, and other faiths, want to declare that only *their* brand is true Wicca. Some insist that the formula they follow (i.e. how they observe Holy Days, for instance) is the only correct one. Some even argue over whether they should be worshiping the Goddess alone, or with the God, or many other variations thereof.

What's funny is that, often, Wicca itself attracted some of its members because they were in search of freedom of thought and faith... yet some of them, once they get in, insist that only *their* structure and belief is the "right" one. This tends to amuse me, because it just goes to show that Wiccan or Christian, some people are never happy to let others decide for themselves, and instead insist that everyone within their faith has to do every little thing exactly the same way.

At any rate, Wicca is indeed a religion, with a basic belief system and doctrine that carries over from one denomination of it to another.

Paganism, however, includes some very different religions, along with Wicca. For instance, Druidism, religions based on Norse beliefs, Native American beliefs and other forms of shamanism, etc.

[The Mirrorball Man]

Well, I don't know about important, but it's certainly one of the most common, and frequent, human activities. :p
Sure, just like the Bible is the most printed book in the world. Claiming anything more is automatically controversial.

[seaflower]

IT BURNS , IT BURNS

My fingers are tingling....

[Takashi_Kurita]

Technically, to be considered Christian, one only needs to follow the teachings of the Christ.

Well... that's a very vague way of putting it. Many people call themselves Christians and claim to "follow his teachings", but in truth believe almost nothing that he said or did.

Christ himself set fairly specific requirements for what is or is not a follower of him, which are alot more stringent than the very general sort of requirements most people think of.

[Mike Pothier]

Well... that's a very vague way of putting it. Many people call themselves Christians and claim to "follow his teachings", but in truth believe almost nothing that he said or did.

Christ himself set fairly specific requirements for what is or is not a follower of him, which are alot more stringent than the very general sort of requirements most people think of.

Well, of course its vague. I was going by the technical definition. There are differing opinions on what exactly he set as requirements as his followers, hence the many different denominations that Christians side with.

[darkslavechaos]

I'm agonistic and yet I believe that the teachings of Christ are good life principals. So in essence, I do follow the teachings of Christ but I object to being called a Christian as, well, I don't believe that Jesus Christ was the son of God.

[Ghost]

Have you read the most important book out today?....It has the power to change people from within..Is used in the courts....and there are more copies printed and sold worldwide then any other book but have you read it?

I am of course refering to THE BIBLE

And it's avaliable in LEGO (http://www.thebricktestament.com/)! :D

Seriously, though, I've never actually read it all. Some parts are pretty neat, however, and I appriciate all the influences it's had on popular culture. Plus, it's a great reference when you can't think of a good name. :)