Kal-L's criticism of the modern DCU heroes echoes...

[Buried Alien]

Did anyone else feel that Kal-L's criticism of the modern DCU's heroes echoed the Modern Age Superman's criticism of the Avengers and Marvel Universe heroes during JLA/AVENGERS?


Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

[Guts/Batman]

Very much so.

It's almost as if they lifted it right out of that story.

[Sean Whitmore]

That is an excellent point, and one that I think should be taken into account by anyone who believes Kal-L might be right in wanting to replace the Earth.

Marvel is usually a darker place than DC. Post-Crisis DC is usually a darker place than Pre-Crisis DC. There are real life reasons for this, but I don't think its fair for characters to get all metafictional and think up in-story reasons.

If Archie could somehow peer into Earth 2, he might think it was a dark and depressing world because Larry Lance, Mister Terrific, and Skyman were killed. :)


SEAN

[Absalom]

Originally posted by Sean Whitmore

That is an excellent point, and one that I think should be taken into account by anyone who believes Kal-L might be right in wanting to replace the Earth.
Yeah, but it should also be taken into account when Aquaman said that the Avengers seemed more heroic exactly because their earth was darker and rougher. Which, btw, was one of the best lines in that story, IMHO.

[Buried Alien]

Yeah, but it should also be taken into account when Aquaman said that the Avengers seemed more heroic exactly because their earth was darker and rougher. Which, btw, was one of the best lines in that story, IMHO.

Yeah, but who ever listens to Aquaman? :)

Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

[Sean Whitmore]

Yeah, but who ever listens to Aquaman? :)


Tuna?


SEAN

[ForEverAncien]

Which breed, there are different ones, ya know ;)

Tuna?


SEAN

[Lurker]

Did anyone else feel that Kal-L's criticism of the modern DCU's heroes echoed the Modern Age Superman's criticism of the Avengers and Marvel Universe heroes during JLA/AVENGERS?


Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

Actually, it villified him in my mind. What exactly do you call scraping a whole universe? Uni-cide?

[RedneckJedi]

Actually, it villified him in my mind. What exactly do you call scraping a whole universe? Uni-cide?
I concur. Depending on the tone that was meant to be used, GA Superman almost sounded like Hal Jordan did as Parallax... wanted to replace Coast City... rewrite history... etc. I really don't like the path it appears he wants to take with this.

[Charles RB]

What exactly do you call scraping a whole universe?

Omnicide, I think.

[DDM]

Omnicide, I think.

"Omnicide is a term used to describe the destruction of species through nuclear war. It may also be used as a general term for industrial pollution. The prefix omni also means all, or basically, in this case, omnicide is the death of all things."

Crisis On Infinite Earths erased billions of pre-Crisis characters from existence. However, it did not involve omnicide since nuclear war or industrial pollution was not used.

[Charles RB]

Crisis On Infinite Earths erased billions of pre-Crisis characters from existence. However, it did not involve omnicide since nuclear war or industrial pollution was not used.

Well, let's steal the term because the term is appropriate and it sounds damn cool. ;)

[PatrickG]

There's a key thing or two that could change this view.

1) If Kal-L's actions don't take a single life but simply transform the universe. Parallax killed. Marty McFly didn't. It depends on Kal-L's approach. He did state his opposition to killing in the same breath so I don't think he'll kill anybody to make this happen.

2) If this universe is literally irrepairable at this point. It seems to be dying right now and Kal-L might well have knowledge to suggest (or at least enough for him to believe) that the current universe cannot be saved because it is flawed and tearing itself apart in a way that no heroes can stop. It certainly LOOKS like the universe is trying to destroy itself. That may be the case or Kal-L may believe it to be the case.

[Gingold]

How about "cosmicide"?

[Patience]

How about "cosmicide"?

I Like Cosmicide.

[LordEd1976]

I Like Cosmicide.


Ditto. I say that settles it and we just say Cosmicide from now on. If any DC writer wants to make official then everyone on this post has to drawn into a massive sequence in which we all get vaporized as the universe crumbles around us. Since Gingold created the word, he can be drawn clutching some expendable hero and screaming "OH DEAR GOD SAVE US!" as the hero stares at the anti-matter wave or whatever and just says omninously "I don't how."

[Tetrachromatic]

I concur. Depending on the tone that was meant to be used, GA Superman almost sounded like Hal Jordan did as Parallax... wanted to replace Coast City... rewrite history... etc. I really don't like the path it appears he wants to take with this.

Hero and villain don't work here - both Supermen are, without question, heroes. What we have here is a universe that was arbitrarily thrown together after a drastic cosmic event and, according to E2 Supes, the result was a disaster. He didn't fight and lose loved ones just to see the DCU fall apart. By the same token, our Superman has no idea what really happened with the original Crisis - he's just doing the best he can with what he's got. Why are they coming into conflict? The universe is falling apart at the seems and no one really knows what to do - but, E2 Supes is acting perfectly in character by wanting to make everything right with the world.

The Parallax and Extant comparisons don't really work - those were megalomaniacal, selfish pursuits of power and control. What E2 Supes wants to do here is put right what he fought so hard for in the original Crisis - he sees (as do I) the blood, sweat and tears of those who fought and died during the Crisis squandered.

So, yeah, the hero and villain labels don't work - they simplify the story far too much and are really inadequate. Right now, they're being setup as protagonist and antagonist, and the roles aren't quite clear and defined. If I were a betting man, I'd say that after these Supermen come into conflict, they'll both serve as protagonists against a far greater enemy and the ultimate antagonist/possible villain of the current Crisis.

He doesn't want to destroy the current universe. The original Crisis was the fight to stop a universe-destroying villain and (ultimately) to have the current universe reformed. The news here is that Earth-1 was the template, and that has caused a huge problem - the current Crisis. E2 Supes wants to fix that problem. He wouldn't be "destroying" the current universe any more than the heroes "destroyed" the multiverse/mainline DCU in the original Crisis.

I kind of hate the tendency of some to oversimplify the events in this book. Johns is trying to tell a huge story, and we're jumping to maddening conclusions by the end of the second issue. This is the guy that brought back Hawkman and redeemed Hal Jordan and defined Wally West as the Flash - this is a guy who obviously respects heroes. Shame on some of you for assuming otherwise.

[Anthony]

Hero and villain don't work here - both Supermen are, without question, heroes. What we have here is a universe that was arbitrarily thrown together after a drastic cosmic event and, according to E2 Supes, the result was a disaster. He didn't fight and lose loved ones just to see the DCU fall apart. By the same token, our Superman has no idea what really happened with the original Crisis - he's just doing the best he can with what he's got. Why are they coming into conflict? The universe is falling apart at the seems and no one really knows what to do - but, E2 Supes is acting perfectly in character by wanting to make everything right with the world.

The Parallax and Extant comparisons don't really work - those were megalomaniacal, selfish pursuits of power and control. What E2 Supes wants to do here is put right what he fought so hard for in the original Crisis - he sees (as do I) the blood, sweat and tears of those who fought and died during the Crisis squandered.


Parallax's sole purpose was exactly the same as the stated purpose of Superman. "To right the wrongs". If Parallax actually went through and fixed everything as was his plan no one would have died. Superman is acting on selfish pursuits, he feels that the world isn't right by his standards, so he wants to fix it. That's so ham handed and egotistical that it matches perfectly with what Hal tried to do as Parallax. Yellow fear monster retcon aside, it was exactly the same thing. The only thing is as of right now Superman hasn't killed anybody.


So, yeah, the hero and villain labels don't work - they simplify the story far too much and are really inadequate. Right now, they're being setup as protagonist and antagonist, and the roles aren't quite clear and defined. If I were a betting man, I'd say that after these Supermen come into conflict, they'll both serve as protagonists against a far greater enemy and the ultimate antagonist/possible villain of the current Crisis.

That's a far enough bet, I seriously doubt, despite the issues DC has been going through, that they would make Superman a final stage villain.

He doesn't want to destroy the current universe. The original Crisis was the fight to stop a universe-destroying villain and (ultimately) to have the current universe reformed. The news here is that Earth-1 was the template, and that has caused a huge problem - the current Crisis. E2 Supes wants to fix that problem. He wouldn't be "destroying" the current universe any more than the heroes "destroyed" the multiverse/mainline DCU in the original Crisis.

Yes he would want to destroy it, since there is only one mainline DCU at the moment. He wants his universe to be the main one, replacing the one he doesn't like.

I kind of hate the tendency of some to oversimplify the events in this book. Johns is trying to tell a huge story, and we're jumping to maddening conclusions by the end of the second issue. This is the guy that brought back Hawkman and redeemed Hal Jordan and defined Wally West as the Flash - this is a guy who obviously respects heroes. Shame on some of you for assuming otherwise.
Second issue? Come on, they've been setting this up for 2 years. Just because "Infinite Crisis" is only on issue 2 doesn't mean that the story started there. People are complaining because the payoff of getting to the end of this story is pyrrhic at best.

Mark Waid defined Wally West, Johns added some flavor.

As for the other stuff, let's just agree to disagree. I think he only respects heroes he likes, the others be damned. This is great when he likes the characters you do, but when he doesn't, it looks very bad.

[Buried Alien]

Second issue? Come on, they've been setting this up for 2 years. Just because "Infinite Crisis" is only on issue 2 doesn't mean that the story started there.

Yes, but those of us on the outside of DC's offices are only *guessing* at what's going to happen based on a few covers and bits of limited information here and there. There are probably still many surprises in store...nothing is necessarily as it seems right now.



Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

[Guts/Batman]

...nothing is necessarily as it seems right now.

Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

Of course nothing is as it seems right now, that's bad storytelling.

And while I'm not exactly a Johns fan and not exactly a lot of faith in DC right now, I will have to trust Johns to get it done with Infinite Crisis. I have no choice in the matter but to do so.

[Anthony]

Yes, but those of us on the outside of DC's offices are only *guessing* at what's going to happen based on a few covers and bits of limited information here and there. There are probably still many surprises in store...nothing is necessarily as it seems right now.



Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)
Yeah, but there comes a point where even the best payoff imaginable, from a story telling perspective, isn't worth the amount of garbage you had to read through to get to it. I'm not saying that the end game won't be great, since I don't know that. But the percentages, as of today, lean heavily towards "not worth it" to me. As always I'll withhold final judgment, but looking at the case...it's not looking good.