Byrne X-Men Cover...this is just bizarre

[TCJohnson]

I really don't know what to make of it.




http://www.comicartfans.com/Images/Category_8734/subcat_16862/byrne%20xmen%20116c.jpg

[Converge]

it's a red X!

[TCJohnson]

Looks fine to me but you can also see it here:

http://www.comicartfans.com/GalleryPiece.asp?Order=Date&Piece=113192&GSub=16862&GCat=0&UCat=0

[the4thpip]

Yikes.

That's just...
Yikes.

[Spackling Compound]

Looks fine to me but you can also see it here:

http://www.comicartfans.com/GalleryPiece.asp?Order=Date&Piece=113192&GSub=16862&GCat=0&UCat=0

The little "pickaninny" in the corner? Maybe during that time, it was still acceptable for such a depiction.
Doesn't make it right but there's a lot of art that now is pretty pathetic.

[TCJohnson]

The little "pickaninny" in the corner? Maybe during that time, it was still acceptable for such a depiction.
Doesn't make it right but there's a lot of art that now is pretty pathetic.

If it was the 40s or 50s or the early 60s, I could probably agree with you. But in 1978? It was considered very offensive even then.

[Spackling Compound]

If it was the 40s or 50s or the early 60s, I could probably agree with you. But in 1978? It was considered very offensive even then.
http://www.vividvision.com/crumb/mcSpadepuppet.jpg
This is from a recent French production of Robert Crumb's artwork. Crumb has consistently, even to this day, depicted "jungle" or "pickaninny" versions of Black people.
I again, am not saying it is great or even good but that the cover you found isn't up for production nor was it published by Marvel. The "pickaninny" character may have been done in innocence as much as a picture of a cowpoke or pirate.

[Gail Simone]

That is very, very weird.

Gail

[SoulOnIce]

http://www.vividvision.com/crumb/mcSpadepuppet.jpg
This is from a recent French production of Robert Crumb's artwork. Crumb has consistently, even to this day, depicted "jungle" or "pickaninny" versions of Black people.
I again, am not saying it is great or even good but that the cover you found isn't up for production nor was it published by Marvel. The "pickaninny" character may have been done in innocence as much as a picture of a cowpoke or pirate.

Drawing that kind of caricature is never done in innocence. It isn't at all like drawing a pirate or a cowpoke.

[kcarroll]

the UPC symbol of course will cover that, so I would not be surprised if this ended up being a running gag internally at marvel. Byrne might have always put something intentionally off color in that space. Terry Austin's signature already appears, so this might be a gag between the two of them.

while I don't think it's a great practice, we don't really know what was going on there, so 'weird' is a fair explanation. attributing motives to byrne is unfair.

[Adam Crocker]

http://www.vividvision.com/crumb/mcSpadepuppet.jpg
This is from a recent French production of Robert Crumb's artwork. Crumb has consistently, even to this day, depicted "jungle" or "pickaninny" versions of Black people.

Leaving aside what Soul on Ice said, Crumb has reputation for drawing both misogynist and racist material that make even his most ardent fans uneasy. And that's leaving aside the fact that often his work was aimed to outrage and provoke, so it's unlikely to very innocent at all.

[Spackling Compound]

Drawing that kind of caricature is never done in innocence. It isn't at all like drawing a pirate or a cowpoke.

Yes it is so there.

Now, to be the adult...
In the past, cartoonist satirized many races by highlighting features and so forth. Crumb pays regular homage to the Disney cartoon style of the 30's and I am sure in his racial depictions is having fun with some of the old stereotypes shown in old MGM cartoon shorts or on advertising labels.

Byrne was probably just pulling out the old style and passing it around the office. I cannot attribute anything other than innocent fun in the picture. Shockingly sad now but for 1978, still not as politically charged.

In the hippie dippy days of tolerance and free love, here's another example of Crumb's work with "black mammy" depicted...

http://www.bluesup.com/bluesupPicturesExtra/CheapThrillsCrumbCover.jpg

[Adam Crocker]

Terry Austin's signature already appears, so this might be a gag between the two of them.

while I don't think it's a great practice, we don't really know what was going on there, so 'weird' is a fair explanation. attributing motives to byrne is unfair.

Perhaps. Artists can have incredibly warped senses of humour. Besides, given all the ill considered, offensive statements he probably just doesn't have any tact left.

[Spackling Compound]

That is very, very weird.

Gail
Byrne or Crumb?

[Lester C.]

This makes twice in as many days I’m defending a man I can’t stand. I’m going to have to shower after this post I swear. Lppl nothing I’ve ever read indicates that John is a racist. Ass**** yes racist no. This was twenty seven years ago when a young John was instructed to draw something and no control over the creative process.

Yes, I realize that John mouth has gotten him in trouble and a labeled a racist like his recent Jessica Alba blond hair Hispanic quote I won’t go into out of consideration for those reading this, but there no one instance where you can say that this man hates people of color as he is an equal opportunity offender.

[Spackling Compound]

No one has said "racist" yet.

I actually was the first person to call attention to the UPC "blank". TC could have posted the cover because he thought Colossus looked funny or the flames weren't high enough.

However, if he did post this for the UPC symbol box, there has been no complaint that Byrne is racist.

TC....what is it that you are saying?

[TCJohnson]

THe picture is racist and offensive and whomever put it there...well, it says a lot about them. I don't know if it was John Byrne or Terry Austin who put that there.

I tend to think it was Byrnes based on his past comments. If it was just this, I would still say it was a bizzarre, twisted and totally tasteless thing to put in. This combined with other comments from Byrne, however, has me believing that it is a form of racism.

[NickThompson]

The only thing I'd point out is that we don't know who actually drew that.

[Lester C.]

The only thing I'd point out is that we don't know who actually drew that.

It was John as proven by Kyuubi in another thread. Follow the link if you have any doubts.

Is this the one?


http://www.comicartfans.com/GalleryPiece.asp?Piece=113192&GSub=16862

[Kyuubi]

It was John as proven by Kyuubi in another thread. Follow the link if you have any doubts.


I think what Nick means is that it could have been the inker that drew the picture, not Byrne.

[NickThompson]

I think what Nick means is that it could have been the inker that drew the picture, not Byrne.
Yeah. I mean, how many people have had that piece in their hands since Byrne released it?




I'm not taking sides, just pointing it out :)

[Just_A_Rat]

Drawing that kind of caricature is never done in innocence. It isn't at all like drawing a pirate or a cowpoke.

Actually, it could be. Let's just say that he did a different stereotype there every issue - the british butler, the white trash type, etc. and one of those stereotypes happened to be the pickaninny illustration on this one. I think I would look on that very differently than if this was the only charicature, or if they were all malicious depictions of minorities.

[DocZulu]

If it was the 40s or 50s or the early 60s, I could probably agree with you. But in 1978? It was considered very offensive even then.

It was always considered offensive by the African American and African Diasporic community.

For Whites, however, it may have been debatable. :rolleyes:

[Spackling Compound]

Yeah. I mean, how many people have had that piece in their hands since Byrne released it?




I'm not taking sides, just pointing it out :)
Oh...well...I am assuming that it is a Byrne drawing. I'm not thinking Austin did it. I'm not thinking somebody in Marvel drew it in. No fan boy doing a little funny for the internet.
It's Byrne.
And even with that being true (for me), then I still don't hold him as a racist nor do I think the intent was mean-spirited. Stupid maybe.

[Selina Quinzel]

Has Byrne ever said anything about it or been asked about it?

I know Will Eisner did the kind of "black face" in The Spirit, but that was the 40's and he's since apologized a lot for it and said while he can look back and be proud of his work- he's not proud of that kind of depiction.

I'm sure it is just a throwaway 'inside joke' (hopefully!) but that doesn't make it right either. What a weird little thing to do anyway...

[EdContradictory]

Has Byrne ever said anything about it or been asked about it?
Well, the only place to ask him is his forum. And if you did, you'd be banned.

[Spackling Compound]

The character is quoting an old standard "Hot Time in the Old Town" using, what is considered by some to be "Negro Dialect" and is obviously characterized as a "pickininny" from the Ol' South. The figure was probably used to break up the dramatic tension of "SUN GOD" roasting a group of Xmen. see attached for the image

I still think that at this time, the character was just as "iconic" as pirates or cowboys.
He probably drew it in to make someone laugh and then there we are...

[TCJohnson]

It was always considered offensive by the African American and African Diasporic community.

For Whites, however, it may have been debatable. :rolleyes:


But back then a lot of white people hadn't even met a black person since the populations were so segregated. Back in the 40s or 50s whit people could find it funny without knowing it was insulting. Back then it could have been considered ignorance as opposed to real bigotry.

[matterconsumer]

If Byrne is anything he's a bigot and not a racist.

[Spackling Compound]

Bad images but popularized in "art"...

http://www.sillyjokes.co.uk/images/dress-up/beards/chinaman.jpg Cooli hat? (http://www.sillyjokes.co.uk/dress-up/acc/beards/chinaman-moustache.html)
http://www.sillyjokes.co.uk/images/dress-up/beards/mexican-bandit.jpg
http://www.gasolinealleyantiques.com/images/Premiums/mask-shiek.JPG Arab mask
Andy Capp...http://www.bdoubliees.com/charliemensuel/sfig1/andycapp/andy.jpg

[EdContradictory]

I still think that at this time, the character was just as "iconic" as pirates or cowboys.
No. It wasn't. At all.

[TCJohnson]

How do any of those pictures make that drawing ok?

[Spackling Compound]

No. It wasn't. At all.
Yes. It was. and Is. A lot.

From the bottle of Aunt Jemima syrup to playbills this is the iconic presentation of black people. Deny it all you want. It still persists and is highly collectible.

[Spackling Compound]

How do any of those pictures make that drawing ok?
They don't.

[EdContradictory]

Yes. It was. and Is. A lot.

From the bottle of Aunt Jemima syrup to playbills this is the iconic presentation of black people. Deny it all you want. It still persists and is highly collectible.

I'm not sure what you're arguing here. Are you arguing that sambos (which is what Byrne drew here), pickaninnies, and mammies were and are accepted "iconic presentations" of African-Americans by the late 70s and on until today?

[Just_A_Rat]

Yes. It was. and Is. A lot.

From the bottle of Aunt Jemima syrup to playbills this is the iconic presentation of black people. Deny it all you want. It still persists and is highly collectible.

I have to agree, it is an (perhaps "the") iconic presentation of blacks, and at the time, it was even more likely have been "the." Does that make it good, or right? No, of course not. But to deny that it is an iconic presentation of blacks, even today is kidding yourself.

[EdContradictory]

I have to agree, it is an (perhaps "the") iconic presentation of blacks, and at the time, it was even more likely have been "the." Does that make it good, or right? No, of course not. But to deny that it is an iconic presentation of blacks, even today is kidding yourself.
The "sambo" was not the "stereo-type of choice" for discriminating discriminators in the late 1970s.

Again, I'm not sure what's being argued here.

If you're arguing that in the late 70s the sambo was a mainstream accepted image used to portray African-Americans, you're wrong.

If you're arguing that in the late 70s the sambo was the "go to" stereotype used by racists against African-Americans, you're also wrong.

If you're arguing that it was an image that still "existed" in the public consciousness based on its heavy usage in the late 1800s and early 1900s, that makes more sense, but is that what's being argued?

[Just_A_Rat]

The "sambo" was not the "stereo-type of choice" for discriminating discriminators in the late 1970s.

Again, I'm not sure what's being argued here.

If you're arguing that in the late 70s the sambo was a mainstream accepted image used to portray African-Americans, you're wrong.

If you're arguing that in the late 70s the sambo was the "go to" stereotype used by racists against African-Americans, you're also wrong.

If you're arguing that it was an image that still "existed" in the public consciousness based on its heavy usage in the late 1800s and early 1900s, that makes more sense, but is that what's being argued?

At least for me, that is what I was supporting - that this was (and still is) an image that exists in the public concsiousness, and I think by it's very outdated nature, it was not an attempt by John Byrne at anything other than low-brow (and intentionally so) humor, as this stereotype was now largely seen as ridiculous, almost as if by being revealed as such, it had lost its power and now Byrne felt that it was okay to use it in a humorous way. I, of course, cannot speak for sure about how Byrne felt about any of this, but that is certainly how I would think that he thought of it (if that makes any sense).

[Cam63]

I hope the artist has improved his opinion of negroes since then.

[Cam63]

Here's my contribution.

http://www.stumbles.id.au/photos/smoko/images/aussie-smoko-001.jpg

Actually, it's a photo of our Prime Minister mixing it with the Leader of the Opposition during a break in Parliament last week.

[Spackling Compound]

At least for me, that is what I was supporting - that this was (and still is) an image that exists in the public concsiousness, and I think by it's very outdated nature, it was not an attempt by John Byrne at anything other than low-brow (and intentionally so) humor, as this stereotype was now largely seen as ridiculous, almost as if by being revealed as such, it had lost its power and now Byrne felt that it was okay to use it in a humorous way. I, of course, cannot speak for sure about how Byrne felt about any of this, but that is certainly how I would think that he thought of it (if that makes any sense).
I am in agreement with the above. Sorry, Ed, but what it is is what it is. The depiction of the big lipped, dark skinned, rural black is still very much readilly identified as "iconic". Not good...not standard...not acceptable but iconic.

[Spackling Compound]

I hope the artist has improved his opinion of negroes since then.
Don't really think the word is "negroes" these days.

[Lester C.]

Don't really think the word is "negroes" these days.

Ease up. Cam from a country other than the USA which means he uses different terminology than what we are accustomed to. Especially in Australia which is known for having it own unique lingo.

[Spackling Compound]

Ease up. Cam from a country other than the USA which means that we use different words to mean the same thing. Especially in Australia which is known for having it own unique lingo.

Oh, was I being "too hard"? Didn't realize I needed "ease".
Sort of a strange turnabout then that this thread seemingly began in earnest to show the horror of Byrne's choice to make a "pickaninny" sit in a box and it has now turned to me being sensitive to someone's poor choice of vernacular in referring to Black people.

Oz has it's own lingo but it also has tv and radio. He would be aware of the stigma of saying "negro"...unless you are Black and then, that's a horse of another color.

[Cam63]

Ease up. Cam from a country other than the USA which means he uses different terminology than what we are accustomed to. Especially in Australia which is known for having it own unique lingo.

Thanks, Lester.

" Negro " is not an offensive word here, Spackling.

" Nigger " and " coon " will cause the user pain, though.

[Cam63]

Oh and pull your head out, mate.

[Lester C.]

Here's my contribution.

http://www.stumbles.id.au/photos/smoko/images/aussie-smoko-001.jpg

Actually, it's a photo of our Prime Minister mixing it with the Leader of the Opposition during a break in Parliament last week.

If that your president then I need to get out of America. If your leader has that much fun, with the opposite party leader no less, then I can’t imagine how much fun the citizens have.

[Cam63]

Many of our politicians have a drink together at the end of the day even if they were tearing strips off each other an hour before.

[Lester C.]

Many of our politicians have a drink together at the end of the day even if they were tearing strips off each other an hour before.

The only time our politicians will buy someone a drink is if there is large quantities of cyanide in it.

[Cam63]

That's what's wrong with Yank politicians.

They have to be willing to have a drink and a chat at the end of the day, even if it's with the enemy.

[Phoney Bone]

Don't really think the word is "negroes" these days.


United Negro College Fund.

[PatrickG]

US politicians still go off and get drunk together after accusing eachother of being evil.

Just because you hate somebody doesn't mean you can't be drinking buddies, it would seem.

[Ian Boothby]

United Negro College Fund.

But try using the word in new North American organization. The time for it has passed.

As for the drawing, it's such an out of date over the top sterotype that it's not all that offensive to me. It loops around, does a 360 and becomes kitch.

[Spackling Compound]

Oh and pull your head out, mate.
Oil roit than, mate.
Did someone mention kitsch?

[Lester C.]

It's not what you call a black person that is offensive its how you say it. A white person can call a black person the n word it and will come across as a term of endearment if you say it right. While Cam's term may have been a bit antiquated there was zero malice it so I was bothered when someone called attention to it.

[Just_A_Rat]

But try using the word in new North American organization. The time for it has passed.

As for the drawing, it's such an out of date over the top sterotype that it's not all that offensive to me. It loops around, does a 360 and becomes kitch.

I think I felt pretty much the same way about it. That being said, I can see why some people would be offended.

I also think some people go out of their way to be offended, which strikes me as rediculous. There is plenty of good material to be offended about out there today, so why look for anything extra.

[Archyduke]

Christopher Priest wrote an article awhile ago about the perhaps inadvertently racist attitudes he ran into when he first started working at Marvel. If I can find it, I think it would shed some light on the situation; mainly, that this kind of casual stereotyping was not exactly unusual at the company in the late 70's, early 80's.

The second section of this article (http://phonogram.us/comics/adventures/chips2.htm) is what I was looking for, I think.

[Gumbo Maximillian]

Yeah thats racist; even if "innocently" intended that doesn't get it out of that characterization.

[Tad Sivana]

As for the iconography of racism....it's deep in the U.S. culture, from Aunt Jemima already cited to many other examples including the 'at's one spicy meatball' italian, or 'Dago Red' to Little Black Sambo. I can remember a restaurant chain in Minnesota from my youth called (yes!) 'Sambo's.
It was a pancake house and was designed for the kiddies and featured the whole children's story with illustrations (not unlike Crumb's) of our hero and his fight with the tigers. This was maybe 1967 or 1968. It caused some outrage even in a farming community and the whole design was changed the next year to make Sambo an Indian! True story.

[Spackling Compound]

As for the iconography of racism....it's deep in the U.S. culture, from Aunt Jemima already cited to many other examples including the 'at's one spicy meatball' italian, or 'Dago Red' to Little Black Sambo. I can remember a restaurant chain in Minnesota from my youth called (yes!) 'Sambo's.
It was a pancake house and was designed for the kiddies and featured the whole children's story with illustrations (not unlike Crumb's) of our hero and his fight with the tigers. This was maybe 1967 or 1968. It caused some outrage even in a farming community and the whole design was changed the next year to make Sambo an Indian! True story.
Sambo's was in existence in my Mississippi hometown for a few years in the late 70s and early 80's. There was no "character" associated with the name..not even the Indian. It was just the name in fancy script.
The items I posted earlier are evidence of the "icons" still in existence...the gap toothed Mexican, the smiling buck tooth Chinaman, the droonken Irishman, and so on. The Mexican and Chinaman are actually from the UK.
I know some of the people here want to say that these are not iconic but they are. Just as much as a fanboy would want to cry about the phonebooth being part of Superman's iconography but it is.
Sad, maybe. But that's the way it is.

[spoon_jenkins]

Sambo's was in existence in my Mississippi hometown for a few years in the late 70s and early 80's. There was no "character" associated with the name..not even the Indian. It was just the name in fancy script.
The items I posted earlier are evidence of the "icons" still in existence...the gap toothed Mexican, the smiling buck tooth Chinaman, the droonken Irishman, and so on. The Mexican and Chinaman are actually from the UK.
I know some of the people here want to say that these are not iconic but they are. Just as much as a fanboy would want to cry about the phonebooth being part of Superman's iconography but it is.
Sad, maybe. But that's the way it is.
I don't understand your repeated reference to the pickaninny being iconic. Being deeply ingrained in a culture doesn't make racism acceptable. It's like excusing the Holocaust because anti-semitism had existed in Europe for centuries. And if the "iconic" comments aren't intended as a defense, then it's just a weird thing to be repeating ad infinitum. It's like someone repeating in several posts that the art was done in ink. I think we don't need 140 repetitions to get that.

On a side note, Andy Capp's not an Irishman; he's English (and created by an Englishman).

[Cam63]

It's not what you call a black person that is offensive its how you say it. A white person can call a black person the n word it and will come across as a term of endearment if you say it right. While Cam's term may have been a bit antiquated there was zero malice it so I was bothered when someone called attention to it.

That's what irritated me about his comment.

Stop looking for a fight over nothing, Spackling.

[Spackling Compound]

That's what irritated me about his comment.

Stop looking for a fight over nothing, Spackling.
You said "Negro" in innocence in the year 2005, the age of communication and with some idea of idioms of the United States.

Byrne drew a caricature in the '70's that was not only done by underground comic artists but emulated by Disney and Warner Bros.

I'm just saying the same token extended you due to your culture allowing the term "negro" as acceptable should be passed on to the Byrne of the '70's.

If you see this as picking a fight, then so be it.

[PatrickG]

If he did this today, I'd be worried.

As it stands, it's weird but it's hard to know what the in-joke (if there was one) was and this piece is twenty years old.

Oh. And given the private nature of the "gag", I'd say it LOOKS bigoted (possibly -- hard to say) but NOT racist (ie. no attempt to keep anyone down but rather a POSSIBLE expression of prejudice that probably wasn't even intended as such) and certainly not drawn with the intent of being seen by the public at least.

And it's twenty years old. No telling if Byrne would even do the same drawing now or if there's some kind of context we're missing.

Byrne can be quite conservative but for all we know, Byrne had a reputation for having lots of afro-American friends at the time and was taking a jab at a racist editor with the cartoon. Or making a reference to a movie. Or any number of things.

[PatrickG]

This just in:

Byrne has denied that the drawing is his work.

He says that Terry Austin does appear to have inked it although it is not Austin's artstyle.

My guess is some editor thought they were being clever.

[Cam63]

Spackling, I'm done talking with you for a while.

[Lester C.]

You said "Negro" in innocence in the year 2005, the age of communication and with some idea of idioms of the United States.

Byrne drew a caricature in the '70's that was not only done by underground comic artists but emulated by Disney and Warner Bros.

I'm just saying the same token extended you due to your culture allowing the term "negro" as acceptable should be passed on to the Byrne of the '70's.

If you see this as picking a fight, then so be it.

Spackling Cam would never pick a fight with you as he prefers to take the high road so I’ll step in. Let me ask you a question. Are you black? I am and I wasn’t offended by Cam in the slightest. You keep putting your foot in your mouth when you attack him for a slight that never took place. As someone that has put his foot his mouth on a regular basis here some advice. Apologize, drop the subject and it will go away.

Again I said this before on this thread and I will say it again. A white person can call a black person the N word and it will come across as a term of endearment if the white person says it right. Also given a lot of black people around the world don’t qualify as African American, being that they were born in say Jamaica, and the fact that “black” people come in all shades from very light skinned brothers such as myself to coal black skinned people from Africa negro may be the most accurate term out there.

[Cam63]

Thanks again, Lester.

[Spackling Compound]

Spackling Cam would never pick a fight with you as he prefers to take the high road so I’ll step in. Let me ask you a question. Are you black? I am and I wasn’t offended by Cam in the slightest. You keep putting your foot in your mouth when you attack him for a slight that never took place. As someone that has put his foot his mouth on a regular basis here some advice. Apologize, drop the subject and it will go away.

Again I said this before on this thread and I will say it again. A white person can call a black person the N word and it will come across as a term of endearment if the white person says it right. Also given a lot of black people around the world don’t qualify as African American, being that they were born in say Jamaica, and the fact that “black” people come in all shades from very light skinned brothers such as myself to coal black skinned people from Africa negro may be the most accurate term out there.
I'm white.
I also disagree heartilly with your assesment that a white person can use that vulgarity. I respect your opinion but my opinion is that it is not appropriate nor accepted among more blacks than a minor few.

[Lester C.]

I'm white.
I also disagree heartilly with your assesment that a white person can use that vulgarity. I respect your opinion but my opinion is that it is not appropriate nor accepted among more blacks than a minor few.

I was angry when I’ve posted and I see now that I should have phrased what I said less combatively. I stand behind what I said just not how I said it. The thing about racism is you develop a radar blip sensor for who is and isn’t a racist. You learn to be able to tell the difference between the cop that pulled you over because he is doing his job and the cop that pulled you over for a DWB. (driving while black.) Nothing Cam has said, or for that matter anyone else here, gives off a vibe that says I hate people because of the color of their skin. For me being a racist is one of the worst things you can be so I tend to get a little bent out of shape when someone is falsely accused like Cam was.

[Cam63]

Ta again, Lester !

[Spackling Compound]

I was angry when I’ve posted and I see now that I should have phrased what I said less combatively. I stand behind what I said just not how I said it. The thing about racism is you develop a radar blip sensor for who is and isn’t a racist. You learn to be able to tell the difference between the cop that pulled you over because he is doing his job and the cop that pulled you over for a DWB. (driving while black.) Nothing Cam has said, or for that matter anyone else here, gives off a vibe that says I hate people because of the color of their skin. For me being a racist is one of the worst things you can be so I tend to get a little bent out of shape when someone is falsely accused like Cam was.
Never said he was racist. Ever.
Said the term "negro" is not used here.

[Cam63]

What's that ?

Tool...

[Iangould]

I still think that at this time, the character was just as "iconic" as pirates or cowboys.


If I'd seen this in 1978 I would have considered it offensive.

[west3man]

For what it's worth, I don't think Spackling "attacked" anyone. He simply provided information about what he believes is an inappropriate word to use to describe certain people. Say his information was inaccurate, if you like, but please don't say he attacked anyone in that post.

Also, I think it's possible for the imagery to be both "iconic," (if I'm using the word correctly) AND inappropriate. The latter does not excuse the former, in this instance - particularly since it was "hidden." That doesn't speak to "innocence," in my opinion. No pass.

Finally, I must add that "sambo" imagery was prevalent enough, in the 1970's there was a restaurant by that name. *My* memories of it, at the time, were pleasant, but as I got older, those memories left a bad taste in my mouth because of the "pickaninny" association. However, I've also got to add that my Google research doesn't confirm my suspicions that "Sambo's" used a black-face or Black child illustration as it's symbol. In fact, there's a revival of the franchise in the works, apparently: http://www.santabarbara.com/dining/a_stones_throw/sambos/default.asp

I dunno if this is just due to my poor research skills or what, but I wanted to present it all. Make of that what you will.



EDITED: ...b/c I frigged up and said "appropriate" when I meant the opposite.

[Spackling Compound]

For what it's worth, I don't think Spackling "attacked" anyone. He simply provided information about what he believes is an appropriate word to use to describe certain people. Say his information was inaccurate, if you like, but please don't say he attacked anyone in that post.
Thanks, west. I actually don't think "negro" is appropriate. I think you meant to say I thought it was "inappropriate".

Also, I think it's possible for the imagery to be both "iconic," (if I'm using the word correctly) AND inappropriate. The latter does not excuse the former, in this instance - particularly since it was "hidden." That doesn't speak to "innocence," in my opinion. No pass.
I agree on all accounts.

Finally, I must add that "sambo" imagery was prevalent enough, in the 1970's there was a restaurant by that name. *My* memories of it, at the time, were pleasant, but as I got older, those memories left a bad taste in my mouth because of the "pickaninny" association. However, I've also got to add that my Google research doesn't confirm my suspicions that "Sambo's" used a black-face or Black child illustration as it's symbol. In fact, there's a revival of the franchise in the works, apparently: http://www.santabarbara.com/dining/a_stones_throw/sambos/default.asp

I dunno if this is just due to my poor research skills or what, but I wanted to present it all. Make of that what you will.
I had the book "Little Black Sambo" as a child. It didn't portray the cartoonish Sambo but a well illustrated black child and the setting was in Africa. I first came to see the "buffoon, black face" Sambo later as an adult and if I'm not mistaken, it was a cartoon by MGM or Warner Bros.
EDIT: I also posted that the Sambo's that we had in my town never had a "black face" character associated with it.
And, to add, the only person I know who goes by the name of "Sambo" is an old Greek guy in my hometown. For the racially curious, he's Greek pure through-and-through with no "African-American" heritage.

[west3man]

Thanks, west. I actually don't think "negro" is appropriate. I think you meant to say I thought it was "inappropriate". Argh. You're right. Sorry about that.

*edits*


I agree on all accounts.


I had the book "Little Black Sambo" as a child. It didn't portray the cartoonish Sambo but a well illustrated black child and the setting was in Africa. I first came to see the "buffoon, black face" Sambo later as an adult and if I'm not mistaken, it was a cartoon by MGM or Warner Bros.
I looked at so many doggone sites, now my memories all jammed-up.

I've gotta say, though, that if this "Sambo's" thing turns out to be as innocent as it appears to be, this is gonna take a helluva lotta wind out of Righteous Indignation sails.

Oh well. The truth is preferable.

[MacQuarrie]

This just in:

Byrne has denied that the drawing is his work.

He says that Terry Austin does appear to have inked it although it is not Austin's artstyle.

My guess is some editor thought they were being clever.
I looked on his forum, and he doesn't absolutely deny it. Since Byrne doesn't like people linking to items on his forum, I will paraphrase what I read; the diligent student is encouraged to go look it up and see for him/herself what was said.

He said it doesn't look like his cartoony stuff from that time, doesn't think he drew it, doesn't remember drawing it, but that it could possibly have been him. The bigger point he made was that it was not at all unusual at the time for such attempts at humor to be found at Marvel back then, and that his history of portraying people of color in positive roles in his comics far outweighs any alleged racism in a not-for-print cartoon that he most likely had not drawn.

Deliberately offensive art was something of a tradition around Marvel at the time. Byrne cites several examples of things he saw posted on doors and walls around the offices that shocked and offended him; for example, Black Goliath was routinely referred to as "The Big Jig" by many editors and writers. One writer often mentioned his desire to write a Black Goliath story titled "The Jig is Up", precisely because it was offensive. It was part of the "rebellious" mindset among artists of the time to try to be deliberately offensive just to see what they could get away with.

He also makes the point that racism is a system of denying rights to some people on the basis of ethnicity, while bigotry is holding an unfairly negative opinion of people for irrelevant reasons such as race. One is a political agenda, the other is merely obnoxious. This piece falls squarely in the second category, since nobody is being oppressed or restricted by the existence of a little cartoon that was never intended to see print and that nobody knew about for almost 30 years.

I think he's right. It is easy to judge the past by today's standards and condemn it for falling short, but it's also a cheap ploy.

Everybody who has never told or laughed at an ethnic joke, raise your hand. Blonde jokes count. And as long as we're on the sensitivity wagon, let's throw in fat jokes, bald jokes, gay jokes, jokes about the disabled or elderly, and just for the heck of it, religious jokes. I would submit that this cartoon is less offensive than the Mr. Magoo cartoons. Fortunately, the blind will never see Mr. Magoo, so we can get away with it. HAH! I told a blind joke! Heck, for that matter, I hope nobody ever unearths the horribly offensive cartoons I drew about my friends back in high school. Since my friends were a diverse bunch, several of the drawings have racial themes. Does that make me a racist? Or is it mitigated by the fact that I had friends of color?

Long and short of it, it's an offensive and vulgar little cartoon, but it's also trivial. The only reason it's even being discussed now is that it's an easy way to dogpile on Byrne once again.

[MacQuarrie]

Here's a question: Do you think that in 30 years, "Hooters" will be considered as offensive as "Sambo's"?

[Spackling Compound]

Here's a question: Do you think that in 30 years, "Hooters" will be considered as offensive as "Sambo's"?
Good point...and I don't think it would be considered offensive at all.
Women are big fans of "boobs". It's the gift du jour for high school girls. If you make 2 A's, you get 34c's.

And to your earlier point about the Byrne dogpile, I noticed Gail mentioned this was wrong in the early part of the thread. Wonder if that was Byrne was wrong or something else?

[TCJohnson]

Long and short of it, it's an offensive and vulgar little cartoon, but it's also trivial. The only reason it's even being discussed now is that it's an easy way to dogpile on Byrne once again.

I don't dogpile on Byrnes. I think the only time I even critisized Byrnes was about the blonde, latino hooker joke. I like is art and for the rest of it, not really worth the time.

And to be honest I have no idea who put it in. It could have been Terry Austin.

I posted this not to dog pile on Byrnes but...it is really too bizarre a thing not to point out.

[west3man]

Long and short of it, it's an offensive and vulgar little cartoon, but it's also trivial. The only reason it's even being discussed now is that it's an easy way to dogpile on Byrne once again.
False.

For all the substance in some of your points, this statement speaks much more loudly - to me, anyway. Okay, really loudly. Well, "as loud." I dunno. I heard it.

[west3man]

Good point...and I don't think it would be considered offensive at all.
Women are big fans of "boobs". It's the gift du jour for high school girls. If you make 2 A's, you get 34c's.

Big difference between celebrating what is real and denigrating with the unreal.

There's also the question of how much the affected group objects to the representation. Hooter's certainly has its critics, but I'd wager a greater percentage of Blacks had a problem with "sambo" imagery.

[MacQuarrie]

Big difference between celebrating what is real and denigrating with the unreal.

There's also the question of how much the affected group objects to the representation. Hooter's certainly has its critics, but I'd wager a greater percentage of Blacks had a problem with "sambo" imagery.
My point was, perceptions change over time, and what's considered harmless in one generation may be considered anything but at some later time.

If, 30 years from now, sexism is taken as seriously as racism is today, is the current genration going to spend a lot of time apologizing for their unenlightened and offensive attitudes all those years ago?

It's good that we as a society have matured to the point that we don't find cartoons like this funny. Hopefully we will someday mature to the point that we recognize them as juvenile nonsense rather than treating them as if they were recruitment ads for the Klan.

[the4thpip]

Big difference between celebrating what is real and denigrating with the unreal.

There's also the question of how much the affected group objects to the representation. Hooter's certainly has its critics, but I'd wager a greater percentage of Blacks had a problem with "sambo" imagery.
As Kathy Griffin once said, there'd never be a restaurant for women called "Balls!" with all the waiters in tight little posing strings.

[TCJohnson]

I could except that arguement in the 40s, 50s and early 60s. Around that time it was ignorance instead of out right bigotry. The problem is that this was almost the 80s. 1978 to be exact. This had been considered insulting for decades at this point and people knew it...especially in a multi-cultural city like New York.

[west3man]

My point was, perceptions change over time, and what's considered harmless in one generation may be considered anything but at some later time.

If, 30 years from now, sexism is taken as seriously as racism is today, is the current genration going to spend a lot of time apologizing for their unenlightened and offensive attitudes all those years ago? Those who laughed in the faces of the people who tried to express those same sentiments, at the time? Absolutely. Well, I think they should.

That's the missing element in this comparison, in my opinion. There were people, even then, who voiced their objections to such things and they were ignored. The choice to ignore, to laugh at, curse out, make fun of, or otherwise disrespect different opinions, just because they aren't convenient to our own agendas - that's worth apologizing for. That's a bigger issue, to me, than whether the general opinion on acceptable behavior changes. It'll always change. What should matter and what always has mattered, in my opinion, is how we choose to respond to each other - how we treat each other.

[west3man]

As Kathy Griffin once said, there'd never be a restaurant for women called "Balls!" with all the waiters in tight little posing strings.Hehehe. I wouldn't put money on that one. ;)

However, even if that were true, I doubt that'd be due to a substantial number of men complaining about how they feel it demeans them. To me, that makes quite a difference.

I think there *are* some things that are just plain ol' wrong. I also agree that how "right" and "wrong" are defined changes is dependent upon one's position in space and time. When all else fails, I think we ought to default to doing what helps the most and hurts the least.

[Spackling Compound]

Hehehe. I wouldn't put money on that one. ;)

However, even if that were true, I doubt that'd be due to a substantial number of men complaining about how they feel it demeans them. To me, that makes quite a difference.

I think there *are* some things that are just plain ol' wrong. I also agree that how "right" and "wrong" are defined changes is dependent upon one's position in space and time. When all else fails, I think we ought to default to doing what helps the most and hurts the least.
The HOOTERS thing can be either an issue of sexism or an issue of breasts.
If the issue is sexism, then we'll see if things change or not.
If it's an issue of breasts, then that's an issue that women disagree on. Some think "big boobs" is a throwback to sexual identities given to them by patriarchy. Others just like having big boobs.

And to pip's suggestion...
http://www.bratlink.com/siteconf.nsf/Lkp/simg-about-l3-press-3h1.jpg/$File/simg-about-l3-press-3h1.jpg
Come on...you know they KNEW what they were doing.

[Lester C.]

And to pip's suggestion...
http://www.bratlink.com/siteconf.nsf/Lkp/simg-about-l3-press-3h1.jpg/$File/simg-about-l3-press-3h1.jpg


Oh god now you’ve done it. Pip is going to feel compelled to post a pic that going to make yours look prudish in compassion. No one on this forum can match the Supreme Pontiff when it comes to pictorial depravity. May god have mercy on us all.

[the4thpip]

Why would I do that.

http://www.ahundredmonkeys.com/images/spotted_dick.gif

[west3man]

The HOOTERS thing can be either an issue of sexism or an issue of breasts.
If the issue is sexism, then we'll see if things change or not.
If it's an issue of breasts, then that's an issue that women disagree on. Some think "big boobs" is a throwback to sexual identities given to them by patriarchy. Others just like having big boobs.

And to pip's suggestion...
http://www.bratlink.com/siteconf.nsf/Lkp/simg-about-l3-press-3h1.jpg/$File/simg-about-l3-press-3h1.jpg
Come on...you know they KNEW what they were doing.
I think the two are darn-near the same issue - objectifying.

[Spackling Compound]

I think the two are darn-near the same issue - objectifying.

The nuance is a man objectifies a woman when he sees her as less than human and more of something to be used (in whatever way).

A boob can be objectified by a woman but is a part of her body.

[west3man]

There's another thread about this topic here. (http://forums.comicbookresources.com/showthread.php?t=92368)

I think that first post (largely from the latest Lying in the Gutters column) strongly supports the notion that this is the result of a broader mindset and isn't necessarily just a meaningless, isolated incident.