Silly wasted arcs that make no sense, anyone? [Archive]

PhoenixBoyX

11-11-2005, 08:44 AM

Okay, so I'm reading the entire original Excalibur (as purchasing all the issues to all the sideseries ever is a project of mine. Finished New Mutants, X-Force, X-Statix, X-Factor, etc. This wasn't some kind of cram for New Excal-I'd read the two CapBrit tpbs and was blown away months ago) and everything through the "Cross Time Caper" was awesome! The two nonClaremont filler issues were okay, and then the stuff after it was okay, and the Nightcrawler issue was alright-as a one time thing. In issue jokes where the character seems to know they are playing to an audience only work for a short time. "Girls School from Heck" was a little messy, but it turned out fun as anything and thank GOD Claremont came back. But okay..."The Promethium Exchange" and "The Trial of Lockheed" suck. SO BADLY. Do they ever reexplain what they did to Limbo...oh wait-I'm sorry-THAT THING THAT HAS BEEN LIMBO FOR YEARS WHICH TIME DOESN'T AFFECT ISN'T LIMBO BECAUSE TIME PASSES IN IT! Can anyone else think of any arcs that made no sense and you just cannot for the life of you figure out who okayed them? Or if anyone just wants to explain to me the fall-out of "The Promethium Exchange" that'd be great!
-Nick

DDM

11-11-2005, 08:50 AM

X-Men: True Friends #1-3 occur after "The School Girls From Heck" storyline.

Jack Flash

11-11-2005, 08:53 AM

PhoenixBoyX

11-11-2005, 09:59 AM

PBX!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I should go back and re-read my old Excalibur issues.

but as to arcs that don't make a lick of sense, the Austen one with Nightcrawlers origins fit the bill "The Draco" indeed.

Yeah-I've read this one. Could they please just have it be that Mystique was messing with Nightcrawler, and none of this ever happened? Or that is was Chaos magic? I wanna blame Chaos magic for EVERYTHING now.
-Nick, who equally celebrates Jack Flash

jeangreydp

11-11-2005, 10:23 AM

Lots of story arcs don't make sense, but.......

WE MISS YOU!!!!!

fishtaco

11-11-2005, 07:45 PM

The Draco, by Chuck Austen, in Uncanny X-Men 428-434.

Dangerous, by Joss Whedon, in Astonishing X-Men (3rd Series) 7-12.

Doom Hammer

11-11-2005, 07:50 PM

Dangerous, by Joss Whedon, in Astonishing X-Men (3rd Series) 7-12.

Please. That arc made enough sense.

And I thought you stopped reading the freakin' book. Usually when one does that, one stops whining about said book.

xakko

11-11-2005, 08:06 PM

Doom Hammer

11-11-2005, 08:08 PM

For the record, I actually OWN the Draco.

I feel like I'm at an AA meeting for saying that, "Hi, I'm Xakko, and I spent good, hard-earned money to buy the worst storyline in X-men history".

Completists Anonymous, I suppose.

Oh yeah? Well it was the FIRST COMIC I EVER BOUGHT! (Excluding when I was, like, eight years old).

Beat that.

Initial reaction: "Huh. Comics really suck."

xakko

11-11-2005, 08:21 PM

Oh yeah? Well it was the FIRST COMIC I EVER BOUGHT! (Excluding when I was, like, eight years old).

Beat that.

Initial reaction: "Huh. Comics really suck."
Beat that? I *LOVE* Nightcrawler. He's at least top 5 X-men for me, possibly as high as 3 (fighting with Rachel and 'Yana after my big two). At least you didn't have the same emotional attachment to him to have to watch him get ruined like that, debased, destroyed. His character drained painfully and his backstory subjected to the worst revision imaginable. It's just too much!

And what's worse, I knew all of these before I bought the trade, but couldn't help myself because I had this horrible need to have all the little numbers in a row. Yes I also bought "Holy War" and "She Lies With Angels".

Come to think of it, is there an Austen arc that wouldn't apply to this thread? Children of the Atom did... something, I suppose, and there were those good scenes with Cain and Sammy.

Doom Hammer

11-11-2005, 08:25 PM

Beat that? I *LOVE* Nightcrawler. He's at least top 5 X-men for me, possibly as high as 3 (fighting with Rachel and 'Yana after my big two). At least you didn't have the same emotional attachment to him to have to watch him get ruined like that, debased, destroyed. His character drained painfully and his backstory subjected to the worst revision imaginable. It's just too much!

And what's worse, I knew all of these before I bought the trade, but couldn't help myself because I had this horrible need to have all the little numbers in a row. Yes I also bought "Holy War" and "She Lies With Angels".

Come to think of it, is there an Austen arc that wouldn't apply to this thread? Children of the Atom did... something, I suppose, and there were those good scenes with Cain and Sammy.

Sorry. Your story is much worse than mine, but mine packs more punch. Who wins? Does it matter? We both lose, really. :D

xakko

11-11-2005, 09:04 PM

Sorry. Your story is much worse than mine, but mine packs more punch. Who wins? Does it matter? We both lose, really. :D
Yes. Quite. *sigh* Maybe we should hijack this thread and turn it into commiseration for time and money wasted on wasted or silly arcs

Hi-Fi

11-11-2005, 09:28 PM

All the Neo storyline, during Revolution. What was that for?? We lost a year reading those storys and now it's like it never happened.

silly plot, silly characters, silly arc.

Faded

11-12-2005, 01:07 AM

The Neo Storyline, Mojo Rising, Season of the Witch, Bizzare Love Triangle, The Draco, the majority of Dangerous, and Haunted (though the subplots interested me; the primary idea lacked IMO). I also felt the Timebreakers arc, while important, was handled poorly and ended up being a waste of potential.

Erkoban

11-12-2005, 02:53 AM

Excalibur had a couple of incredibly weird inconsistent arcs. Overall the stuff by Davis and the stuff by Claremont was good solid fun, but the whole thing with the phoenix and the anti-phoenix was lost on me. It had some great moments, but it was set up on a small scale so I kept wondering.... is this a good story or just a so-so story, I just can't decide: should I like this or hate it.

Draco was just bad. Same with the Lobdell issues of Excalibur and the numerous fill ins on that title. Excalibur only ever was worth a thing when Claremont wrote it, or Davis, or Warren Ellis, and I lean more towards Davis because of the artwork back then (which I find was so much better then than it is now).

The Neo, could have been fun, but ended up as one big disastrous undertaking.

Prisoner of Fire... really underwhelmed. We all knew the mystery telepath was supposed to be psylocke, and somehow it was Claremont on auto-pilot. Just filler.

Tommy

11-12-2005, 07:57 AM

I do think Astonishing's 2nd arch made no sense. There were MAJOR plot holes in it.

But the series that made the least ammount of sense was not a Marvel series at all. Crisis on the Infanit Earths makes no sense whatsoever.

PhoenixBoyX

11-12-2005, 09:18 AM

See, I feel Dangerous had point. There was a beginning that made sense, and an end that made sense and fit more or less with continuity with an interesting (even if not as good as "Gifted") plot.

I mean more the stuff that is all Idk...like the team is hanging out making bad jokes when suddenly Dr Doom appears, Phoenix mindscans him, says he's a good guy, then they go into Limbo (Dr Doom and Kitty with the rest of Excalibur just behind them) and Dr Doom takes the Soulsword, uses it to reshape the dimension, claims Limbo isn't Limbo, and the Avengers West Coast show up cause Dr Doom is gonna suck WhatWasOnceLimbo through five dimensional holes that suddenly appeared, and the two teams fight a bunch of demons who look like Marvel superheroes, only demoned out. Then the savior of the piece turns out to be some character from years and years ago that Dr Doom did experiements on in FF, and saves the day. After all this, people realize Lockheed is hurt, and they take him to a hospital where he has an out of body experience told through rhyming semioldenglish couplets about how he has betrayed his species by befriending the X-Men and leaving them and must be sentenced to death. THAT'S the kind of stuff I mean.

Thought of a new one, though! Silly pointless wasted arc! BirdBrain in New Mutants. See I'm gonna harp on this one cause it was my favorite book til Claremont left and BirdBrain came around. WHAT?! WAS HE SUPPOSED TO BE THE NEW WARLOCK!? SHUT UP. The only thing that happened cause of him was Doug died which could have been done better. Like fighting an actual villian. Not someone who crossed animal DNA who lived in a cave.
-Nick

fishtaco

11-12-2005, 09:35 AM

delete post.

Hi-Fi

11-12-2005, 09:47 AM

The Fury

11-12-2005, 09:49 AM

. And I really did not like the advanced AI which featured in it, it didn't make sense with commonly known AI theories.

Whedon is a tallented writer, and can write great character interaction, but needs to learn how to explain things.

But yeah, The Draco was bad.

Twigglet

11-12-2005, 09:51 AM

The Dosadi Experiment

11-12-2005, 10:01 AM

Fishtaco, stop bashing Whedon just because he's not CC. You know very well that the story isn't over yet, and that Whedon will explain this Hellfire Club in Genosha. I find so funny because when people complain about something in a Claremont arc that is not explained, you always say something like "CC works with subplots that take a while to get resolved. Wait and it will all make sense". So at least try to do that with Antonishing.

Plus, Danger wanted to kill Xavier first, before anyone else. The Antonishing team was killed first because they were there, as they provided her escape.

funny thing... that Whedon fellow...

you see when he was taken on board he came on board for 12 issues. Halfway in his tenure was extended with another twelve.

What if his run wasn't extended? Then twelve issues are his title, in which he resolved absolutely nothing. Now it's a 24 issue title under the name Whedon.

Uncanny is an ongoing title, with or without Claremont it will continue. Astonishing isn't anything like that, Astonishing was created for Whedon, it starts and ends with Whedon.

And so far we've been given zero resolution as for his initial stories. Had his tenure ended after 12 issues, we would have been left with a disposable title, with no conclusion.

Also his stories weren't original. Mutant Cure, it's been done more than once, and with the same dillema for one main character. In this case it was beast, couple of years ago it was Rogue.

Then we get Dangerroom freaking out, Dangerroom freaks out regularly, it gaining sentience was just a retread of Cerebro becoming an autonomous creature. It had logical holes the size of Texas in it.

As for you accusing Fishtaco of Bashing, I think I can count the positive remarks you've made about Claremont on one hand, as for Twigglet, he's to Claremont what Fishtaco is to Whedon, but I've never heard you bitch about Twigglet.

People in glass houses shouldn't throw bricks, and if you're going to point a finger, then point that same finger at people doing the exact same thing.

Doom Hammer

11-12-2005, 10:07 AM

Dangerous made no sense because of the massive amounts of continuity errors, and the Danger bot's objectives. Her objectives were A) Kill those who I tried to kill once before (in other words, those who have used the danger room), and B) Kill Xavier. Alright, Danger killed about 5 of them (and did a horrible job at it at that), and rushed to Genosha to kill Xavier, apparently forgetting to kill the hundreds of other mutants who have used the danger room. This clearly shows how Whedon is so self absorbed in his own stories that he doesn't stop to think about how he is not the only person writing an X-Men book, or the first person to ever write an X-men book.

Yeah, I see your logic. Instead of rushing off to fulfill her main objective, she should've directly challenged a school filled with hundreds of super-powered mutants in it, and then spent a couple months searching for a bunch of lame-ass third-tier X-Men that haven't been seen for years but may have used the Danger Room in the past.

Wait...that would be incredibly dumb...

And Danger also said that she never tried to kill Xavier before, which is a false fact because Xavier has trained in the Danger Room many times, most of those times was when he gained the ability to walk again in Uncanny X-Men 180.

Really now? Granted, I dont own the issue, but UXM makes no mention of his training in the Danger Room.

And the last bit with the Hellfire Club doesn't make sense either. It's still possible to explain, but two Hellfire Clubs (with Sebastion Shaw in the genosha one) makes no sense.

It makes perfect sense if you want to look for it. Sebastian Shaw got screwed over by Sage and his old Hellfire affiliates, and is looking to rebuild his former power. It's simple. What about his presence on Genosha makes no sense?

Negasonic Teenage Warhead joining up with Cassandra Nova is negasonically out of character,

HAHAHAHAHA! You're judging the character of the girl who was alive for three panels, and explaining what is in and out of character for her?! HA! Well, I can see how THAT statement makes sense. With her well-developed background and firmly-planted character, who could argue with you?

and it's also out of character for Emma and Sebastion to join up with her as well.

Fishtaco, just because you can't piece the mystery together doesn't mean it doesn't make sense. It means we haven't been given all the information yet. It's like you're walking out of a movie before it's over because it "doesn't make sense". Of course it doesn't make sense to you, you don't have the whole story.

(Also, if you had dropped the book like you said you did and proudly posted in your sig, we wouldn't be having this discussion at all.)

Stopped picking at this book. Claremont's book hasn't made complete sense since his return, but we all know he has a resolution coming up, and so we hold out. Why can't you do the same for Whedon, even in a much smaller scope? Claremont is writing a 30-issue story right now, and we're obviously not getting all the answers. It's okay for him to do that, but it's bad for Whedon to have a multi-arc story? Where's your logic?

Hi-Fi

11-12-2005, 10:14 AM

funny thing... that Whedon fellow...

you see when he was taken on board he came on board for 12 issues. Halfway in his tenure was extended with another twelve.

What if his run wasn't extended? Then twelve issues are his title, in which he resolved absolutely nothing. Now it's a 24 issue title under the name Whedon.

Uncanny is an ongoing title, with or without Claremont it will continue. Astonishing isn't anything like that, Astonishing was created for Whedon, it starts and ends with Whedon.

And so far we've been given zero resolution as for his initial stories. Had his tenure ended after 12 issues, we would have been left with a disposable title, with no conclusion.

Also his stories weren't original. Mutant Cure, it's been done more than once, and with the same dillema for one main character. In this case it was beast, couple of years ago it was Rogue.

Then we get Dangerroom freaking out, Dangerroom freaks out regularly, it gaining sentience was just a retread of Cerebro becoming an autonomous creature. It had logical holes the size of Texas in it.

As for you accusing Fishtaco of Bashing, I think I can count the positive remarks you've made about Claremont on one hand, as for Twigglet, he's to Claremont what Fishtaco is to Whedon, but I've never heard you bitch about Twigglet.

People in glass houses shouldn't throw bricks, and if you're going to point a finger, then point that same finger at people doing the exact same thing.

First, you really think that Whedon would finish his run like that if he didn't knew he would another 12 issues? To think otherwise is rather...naive. :rolleyes:

Second, i didn't know that you work for Marvel. So you know for sure that Antonishing will end after Whedon leaves? I didn't read it anywhere.

Third, i never said i liked the Dangerous arc, i thought it was an ok arc, with great moments and dialogue. What i said was that Fishtaco's reasons to bash the arc didn't make sense, because the bigger story is not over yet.

Fourth, count again, because i usually like CC's stuff. So stop puting words in my mouth. I don't like it at all. Are you following my posts to know that i NEVER bitched about Twigglet? (which i never done, because he doens't post in EVER thread how much he hates determined writer as other people do)

I don't see you either bitching about people bashing Whedon (nope. you just do it when people say something about Claremont), so don't point your finger at me, okay, dude? :rolleyes:

SleepWalker

11-12-2005, 10:27 AM

. And I really did not like the advanced AI which featured in it, it didn't make sense with commonly known AI theories.

Yeah man, I don't like how Wolverine's metal is bonded to his bones, it just doesn't make sense with commonly known surgical procedures.

The Fury

11-12-2005, 10:43 AM

Yeah man, I don't like how Wolverine's metal is bonded to his bones, it just doesn't make sense with commonly known surgical procedures.
Yeah, alright, alright.

I'll still moan about it until I understand it though (meaning whne it is explained or at least what he means by 'All Shi'Ar technology is sentient'). I get the AI involved in Vision and Ultron and the AI partly in Machine man, this still makes no sense. To me anyway.

SleepWalker

11-12-2005, 10:52 AM

Yeah, alright, alright.

I'll still moan about it until I understand it though (meaning whne it is explained or at least what he means by 'All Shi'Ar technology is sentient'). I get the AI involved in Vision and Ultron and the AI partly in Machine man, this still makes no sense. To me anyway.

haha man, it's all good. there are some pretty funny things that annoy me too.

Beast

11-12-2005, 10:56 AM

I agree with the folks above that the 'Danger' arc from Astonishing was pretty pointless and suffered from a lot of plot holes and just basic continuity errors. And worse yet, it made the first arc seem even less interesting. I recently went back and re-read all 12 issues, and other than the Colossus reveal, there is a lot sorely lacking in Whedon's run so far. Sure the visual of Piotr's return is great, but the story surrounding it is pretty flat. To quote Jay: "It's a good plate with nothin' on it." I'm hoping his second 13 issues are much better. :)

The Dosadi Experiment

11-12-2005, 11:09 AM

First, you really think that Whedon would finish his run like that if he didn't knew he would another 12 issues? To think otherwise is rather...naive. :rolleyes:

While it's obvious the second storyarc is pointless filler with no real direction and even less character development, you seem to ignore it, so why shouldn't I?

Second, i didn't know that you work for Marvel. So you know for sure that Antonishing will end after Whedon leaves? I didn't read it anywhere.

And you on the other hand do work for Marvel, and know all that needs to be known right... and you call me naive. :rolleyes:

Third, i never said i liked the Dangerous arc, i thought it was an ok arc, with great moments and dialogue. What i said was that Fishtaco's reasons to bash the arc didn't make sense, because the bigger story is not over yet.

and you never judged anything based on one or two arcs.... right :rolleyes:

We'll keep that in mind next time you open your mouth about say... Uncanny X-men or X-men or New Excalibur.

Fourth, count again, because i usually like CC's stuff. So stop puting words in my mouth. I don't like it at all. Are you following my posts to know that i NEVER bitched about Twigglet? (which i never done, because he doens't post in EVER thread how much he hates determined writer as other people do)

can you show me three posts from three different Uncanny threads in which Twigglet didn't say "golly gosh, Uncanny is like crap, Claremont should retire, get another writer on board" ? Not surprising is that in this thread his first post... guess what "I hate the Neo" and guess what that was penned by... that's right... Claremont... gasp shock horror. At least Fishtaco makes something of his posts instead of a hit and run, and then do some licking in "I completely agree with this poster"

I don't see you either bitching about people bashing Whedon (nope. you just do it when people say something about Claremont), so don't point your finger at me, okay, dude? :rolleyes:

You started to point the finger here, not I. I'm just holding up a mirror.

Hi-Fi

11-12-2005, 11:15 AM

Okay, The Dosadi Experiment. You won. Congrats.

I thought i was replying to Fishtaco and not you, since i don't even know you, but that's ok if you felt like you need to bash my post.

Take care.

Erkoban

11-12-2005, 12:14 PM

well that was mature...

so here's another idea for silly wasted storyarcs:

The Ages of Apocalypse.

the Twelve had come to pass, and all the heroes sort of survived, and we get this weird alternate it's all in your head type of story that really didn't work at all.

Erkoban

11-12-2005, 12:17 PM

and while on the subject of Astonishing X-men... can anyone explain the point of Astonishing X-men Volume 2? Wolverine was Death, and there were mannites, and I think I've repressed the rest of the thing. A mini-series that had guest pencillers, that's usually a sign that there's something gone wrong.

Twigglet

11-12-2005, 12:28 PM

While it's obvious the second storyarc is pointless filler with no real direction and even less character development, you seem to ignore it, so why shouldn't I?

And you on the other hand do work for Marvel, and know all that needs to be known right... and you call me naive. :rolleyes:

and you never judged anything based on one or two arcs.... right :rolleyes:

We'll keep that in mind next time you open your mouth about say... Uncanny X-men or X-men or New Excalibur.

can you show me three posts from three different Uncanny threads in which Twigglet didn't say "golly gosh, Uncanny is like crap, Claremont should retire, get another writer on board" ? Not surprising is that in this thread his first post... guess what "I hate the Neo" and guess what that was penned by... that's right... Claremont... gasp shock horror. At least Fishtaco makes something of his posts instead of a hit and run, and then do some licking in "I completely agree with this poster"

You started to point the finger here, not I. I'm just holding up a mirror.

Pointless filler? So it didn't create a new villain for the X-men, show us a secret from Xaviers past, which was mentioned in HOM and will probably be built up some more. And it definitly didn't start Emma's own arc which will reveal where her true priorities lie. I also think a lot of character development occured in issue 7.

Surprisingly Hi-fi doesn't work for Marvel so he doesn't know if the title will end or not, but then again he wasn't the one who was saying it would now was he?

I also never posted in this thread saying I hate the Neo. Please don't make up quotes for me....

Jake V

11-12-2005, 12:29 PM

Can anyone else think of any arcs that made no sense and you just cannot for the life of you figure out who okayed them?
Given the criteria for an arc to be mentioned in this thread, Astonishing's "Dangerous" arc doesn't really fit. It made sense, and it was okayed by Marvel editorial because it was written by Joss Whedon. Printing a Whedon comic is the same printing money as far as Marvel is concerned.

Radical_dreamer

11-12-2005, 12:30 PM

Beast

11-12-2005, 12:32 PM

Twigglet

11-12-2005, 12:33 PM

its till sinfully delicious to see fishtaco'S rants....

He can spend pagtes bashing any little (and I do mean little) continuity glitch in astonishing X-men but will explain and rave about all of CC's mediocre stories calling them genius. Im not saying saying that all of CC's stories are mediocre....he had some good ones a few decades or so ago but....I mean come on.

I enjoy some CC's work now, Excalibur #14 was one of my favorite X-issues of last year. Yet it is obvious to me and some other posters here, that some writers will love Claremont no matter what and their bias goes against anything which is slightly different that what CC does or more popular than CC's books.

The Fury

11-12-2005, 12:34 PM

So it didn't create a new villain for the X-men, show us a secret from Xaviers past, which was mentioned in HOM and will probably be built up some more. And it definitly didn't start Emma's own arc which will reveal where her true priorities lie. I also think a lot of character development occured in issue 7.

You are right, developements have been made, and that is obvious, Whedon is a good writer when he puts his mind to it, I'm sure. But his second arc really did lack a good plot. Added with the mistakes and not explaining anything means it wasn't good. (in many peoples minds)

What many might think is that they were expecting great things off the creator of Buffy, but what they got was nothing near great and they feel disappointed, so they have a go at it. I was one of them.

Twigglet

11-12-2005, 12:36 PM

You are right, developements have been made, and that is obvious, Whedon is a good writer when he puts his mind to it, I'm sure. But his second arc really did lack a good plot. Added with the mistakes and not explaining anything means it wasn't good. (in many peoples minds)

What many might think is that they were expecting great things off the creator of Buffy, but what they got was nothing near great and they feel disappointed, so they have a go at it. I was one of them.

In all honesty, I didn't like AXM 2nd arc as much as the first, yet I still thought it was a great story, a solid 8 out of 10, with some parts being really great. But I can't see many LARGE continuity errors which can't be dismised with a simple thought.

I don't really like Buffy all that much, yet Angel is superb

Beast

11-12-2005, 12:40 PM

In all honesty, I didn't like AXM 2nd arc as much as the first, yet I still thought it was a great story, a solid 8 out of 10, with some parts being really great. But I can't see many LARGE continuity errors which can't be dismised with a simple thought.

I don't really like Buffy all that much, yet Angel is superb
I don't know. The continuity issues related to Xavier's whereabouts, funtional power on Genosha, Danger's comments, and the incorrect Sentinel are pretty hard to dismiss with just a simple thought.

Twigglet

11-12-2005, 12:45 PM

I don't know. The continuity issues related to Xavier's whereabouts, funtional power on Genosha, Danger's comments, and the incorrect Sentinel are pretty hard to dismiss with just a simple thought.

Wasn't there 3 sentinels which were launched to Genosha? Couldn't this be another one of the 3 not the one which was turned into a Magneto statue.

Power could of been supplied by Magneto? Or something liek that?

What was wrong with Xaviers whereabouts or Dangers comments?

Faded

11-12-2005, 12:46 PM

Gosh I love this forum. At least there's both sides here than say other places.

Fishtaco, stop bashing Whedon just because he's not CC. You know very well that the story isn't over yet, and that Whedon will explain this Hellfire Club in Genosha. I find so funny because when people complain about something in a Claremont arc that is not explained, you always say something like "CC works with subplots that take a while to get resolved. Wait and it will all make sense". So at least try to do that with Antonishing.

But I really do agree with this statement. Its an excuse for Claremont, but not for others. The same could easily be said for most ongoing writers, such as Nunzio and Christina (who I felt I slowly but surely began to like previously mediocre characters more and more as issues went on) or Whedon or anybody. But of course, ALL writers should also be judged on whats here and now, since it is printed in a monthly formats.

Radical_dreamer

11-12-2005, 12:51 PM

Beast

11-12-2005, 12:52 PM

Wasn't there 3 sentinels which were launched to Genosha? Couldn't this be another one of the 3 not the one which was turned into a Magneto statue.

Power could of been supplied by Magneto? Or something liek that?

What was wrong with Xaviers whereabouts or Dangers comments?
There were four, but only two actually showed up in Genosha. There is some suggestions that they combined together, or two of them went after a secondary target that is mentioned. The two that landed on Genosha were the upright tri-headed one, and the beetle one with 'smokestacks' on it's back. The upright tri-head was turned into the Magneto/Xavier statue, and the beetle one went missing. But the one that rose from underneath the ground was somewhat beetleish but was upright, and also featured a tri-head. As for the power issue, that is possible. But Xavier also comments that he knocked out everything else powered. But the island actually drains energy from things and stops electronic devices from functioning after a time there.

Scott apologizes to Emma about not telling her or the other X-Men where Xavier went. The fact is that most of the X-Teams knew where Xavier went to rebuild his dream. And Emma certainly knows, cause she's standing right there in 'Bright New Mourning' when Beast tells Cyclops that Xavier's left and gone to Genosha. So it's balderdash that she doesn't know where he is. As for Danger, she comments when she's astrally in Xavier's mind that even in his mind can't get beyond the flaws of the flesh. And that's wrong, Xavier has often shown himself to be standing and walking in astral form. The only time psychologically he couldn't adjust to having his leg function restored, was when he got his Shiar clone body.

Twigglet

11-12-2005, 12:55 PM

There were four, but only two actually showed up in Genosha. There is some suggestions that they combined together, or two of them went after a secondary target that is mentioned. The two that landed on Genosha were the upright tri-headed one, and the beetle one with 'smokestacks' on it's back. The upright tri-head was turned into the Magneto/Xavier statue, and the beetle one went missing. But the one that rose from underneath the ground was somewhat beetleish but was upright, and also featured a tri-head. As for the power issue, that is possible. But Xavier also comments that he knocked out everything else powered. But the island actually drains energy from things and stops electronic devices from functioning after a time there.

Couldn't it been one of the other two setinals which never showed up?

I honestly can't remember where Xavier said he knocked out the power.

Erkoban

11-12-2005, 12:55 PM

Pointless filler? So it didn't create a new villain for the X-men,

A rather forgetable villain unfortunately, danger is a non-entity, pull the plug, and she's gone so to speak. No long term plans, no ideology, she's just brute force, like most characters that are drummed up to perform in filler arcs. A new villain doesn't mean that it isn't a filler villain. Welcome to a hell of a lot of anuals.

show us a secret from Xaviers past,

It's not exactly a damning secret, and the secret was tied to a logical flaw. It really doesn't add or detract much from Xaviers character, only the sensation of there being yet another dirty little secret in Xavier's closet full of dirty little secrets.

The revelation didn't really have an impact on the character, as it wasn't really that big of a deal, it was simply yet another one added to a long list.

which was mentioned in HOM and will probably be built up some more.

explain.

And it definitly didn't start Emma's own arc which will reveal where her true priorities lie.

hurray, retconning 10+ years of character development through the re-creation of the Hellfire club, which was re-assembled in a bit more of an organised manner months before in Uncanny with a different set up. Sure you can now go and explain, as a fan, that there are theories that allow both to exist simultaneously, but still, it's only fan-theory, you want to make it fit, when it clearly doesn't fit.

I also think a lot of character development occured in issue 7.

such as? Kitty going back to Piotr... yeah, moving forward that is.

Emma going evil with the hellfire club? Yeah that's original.... and if she's only trying to fool the Hellfire club, then still... how original, even Austen did something similar with Juggernaut.

Beast

11-12-2005, 12:57 PM

Rachel Summers.

kettle, meet pot.
If you're going to offer an argument, do so. Cause I don't see any statement about continuity there.

mattbib

11-12-2005, 01:53 PM

All the Neo storyline, during Revolution. What was that for?? We lost a year reading those storys and now it's like it never happened.I take issue with suggesting that the Neo storyline was a waste of time; or at least making it seem as though it's the writer's fault. Obviously there was going to be a point to the storyline, but CC was never allowed to make that point. There were tons of potential plot points raised by Chris during his Revolution era. But once he was removed from the titles to make way for Casey and Morrison, by the time he got back into the fold with X-Treme he was dealing with a whole new playing field.

EDIT: There's no Whedon or Morrison bashing in THIS post! :)

Beast

11-12-2005, 02:13 PM

Not to mention the Neo and all the other stuff he did when he came back, was demanded by editorial. Readers were complaining they wanted 'New Stuff' and not the same old stories and villains. And then when CC tried to deliver, people disliked it and didn't give it time. So they shifted him off onto X-Treme, where he had to deal with his storyline mangled by four seperate editors and Morrison snatching his star character.

Radical_dreamer

11-12-2005, 02:58 PM

Doom Hammer

11-12-2005, 03:04 PM

It's not exactly a damning secret, and the secret was tied to a logical flaw. It really doesn't add or detract much from Xaviers character, only the sensation of there being yet another dirty little secret in Xavier's closet full of dirty little secrets.

The revelation didn't really have an impact on the character, as it wasn't really that big of a deal, it was simply yet another one added to a long list.

He enslaved a sentient being. Slavery is not a big deal? Well, it has been since Lincoln freed them. And it also coincides with the experiences of one of Xavier's former students. It is most definitely a big deal to the X-Men, regardless of your own opinion.

We already see that the revelation has caused a division between the X-Men and their founder, which was referenced in House of M, and will continue to grow.

As for the villain being bland, that's really more of an opinion. I think freed super-powered sentient robotic slaves with a grudge against one of the most repected characters in the universe is kinda neato. But see, that's my opinion.

hurray, retconning 10+ years of character development through the re-creation of the Hellfire club, which was re-assembled in a bit more of an organised manner months before in Uncanny with a different set up. Sure you can now go and explain, as a fan, that there are theories that allow both to exist simultaneously, but still, it's only fan-theory, you want to make it fit, when it clearly doesn't fit.

Emma going evil with the hellfire club? Yeah that's original.... and if she's only trying to fool the Hellfire club, then still... how original, even Austen did something similar with Juggernaut.

Ironically, what pisses you off is your own fan-theory. Sure, it looks like a new HFC might be forming, but it's not official. It could be any numer of things going on there, even an extension of the already-established HFC. I would suggest that you should stop creating ideas that upset you, because Whedon certainly hasn't (yet).

Beast

11-12-2005, 03:19 PM

Do you even listen to yourself?! Do you treat any other writer like that!! Imagine the causes for their shortcomings?
Yes, I listen to myself. And yes, I would.... if the information was actual fact. Which this is. As Claremont has talked about it for years since coming back to Marvel.

fishtaco

11-12-2005, 05:49 PM

Fishtaco, stop bashing Whedon just because he's not CC. Right, like I also bash the other X-Men writers that I love as well, because they are also not Chris Claremont (i.e. Louise Simonson, Ann Nocenti, Tom DeFalco, Fabian Nicieza, Larry Hama, Tony Bedard, Warren Ellis, Alan Davis, John Francis Moore, Brian K. Vaughn, Walter Simonson, Nunzio DePhillips, Christina Weir, Frank Tieri, Peter David, Terry Kavanagh). Yeah, I see your logic. Instead of rushing off to fulfill her main objective, she should've directly challenged a school filled with hundreds of super-powered mutants in it, and then spent a couple months searching for a bunch of lame-ass third-tier X-Men that haven't been seen for years but may have used the Danger Room in the past.

Wait...that would be incredibly dumb...yes, you're absolutely right. It would be very dumb. But if it's either writing a dumb story, or writing a story that makes no sense, or writing a different story instead, I'll take the third choice. HAHAHAHAHA! You're judging the character of the girl who was alive for three panels, and explaining what is in and out of character for her?! HA! Well, I can see how THAT statement makes sense. With her well-developed background and firmly-planted character, who could argue with you?Well, Cassie did technically murder her, after all, but I guess I'll still give it a chance. I thought i was replying to Fishtaco and not you, since i don't even know you, but that's ok if you felt like you need to bash my post.And you know me, correct?He can spend pagtes bashing any little (and I do mean little) continuity glitch in astonishing X-men What Beast said. While there were a few minor ones sure, there were still a lot of big ones that contradicted continuity established prior to the story arc. Im not saying saying that all of CC's stories are mediocre....he had some good ones a few decades or so ago but....I mean come on.Claremont didn't write any good X-Men stories a decade ago. He didn't write any bad X-Men stories either. He wasn't even at Marvel 10 years ago. :) I enjoy some CC's work now, Excalibur #14 was one of my favorite X-issues of last year. Yet it is obvious to me and some other posters here, that some writers will love Claremont no matter what and their bias goes against anything which is slightly different that what CC does or more popular than CC's books.Well, at least we agree on Excalibur 14. Keep in mind, and I'm not saying this just to you, that I made a post on this thread, stating how I thought that Dangerous did not make sense. So why is everybody pulling Chris Claremont, and even Joss Whedon into it? In my opinion, I think that Whedon is a good writer, but not a good X-Men writer. i didn't mean to bash Whedon when I said that Dangerous did not make sense. I try to be as un-biased as possible, as well. On occasion, I have even criticized Claremont. New Mutants (1st Series) Annual 3 did not make any sense, because the Impossible Man lost his competition with Warlock because he was not able to change colors, even though he already did so earlier in the issue to be in the beauty competition on the beach. There. Claremont has written a story that didn't make sense, and so has Whedon. Please stop comparing creators, everyone. While I still enjoy just about all of his stories, there are a few things that can bother me occasionaly about his writing. I don't want to get into specifically what, because that is not what this thread is all about, but I really try not to be biased. Power could of been supplied by Magneto? Or something liek that?Not really. Magneto can probably form the electricity, but they didn't have the resources needed to contain it. Xavier's motorized wheelchair died, and since, he has had to travel on Callisto's back. There was nothing Magneto could have done. They may have eventually gotten electricity up and working, but the powerlines that we saw in AXM contradicted an element of the antagonism in Xavier and his associates' rebulding of Genosha. Emma going evil with the hellfire club? Yeah that's original.... and if she's only trying to fool the Hellfire club, then still... how original, even Austen did something similar with Juggernaut.It's a step in the right direction for her, imo. As an X-Man, I hate her guts. At the same time, she is one of my favorite villains. I loved how in Uncanny X-Men Annual 8 Illyana Rasputin (Magik) depicted Emma Frost as the scum of the Earth.

We also wouldn't be having this debate if the editors got up off their butts and got this book out on time. They are currently 7 of 8 issues behind. The delays are what is making this book a joke.

xgeek52

11-13-2005, 08:21 AM

*sigh*...you guys could argue to hell and gone and still agree to disagree..

i've been reading the xmen off and on for forty years...there's going to be arcs that make no damn sense...part of them are the writer's fault part of them you can blame on the editors (and trust me marvel editors are famous for this)...

okay...whedon is a good writer;so is claremont and just about everyone else fistaco named...but sometimes the writing just doesn't jell with the history...when that happens you get lousy story arcs...i thought the onsault story arc was well written, just a lousy arc...the death and rebirth of jean grey (the first one guys -- one leading to the first xfactor) was useless...

and don't get me started on the madelyne pryor arc...

y'see it doesn't matter who writes the stories...they're all are going to misfire at one time or another...i wasn't really all that happy with whedon's run but then again there have been some claremont (who i consider the definitive xman writer) which i've absoultly loathe...

i like to see you guys bat it back and forth...i warms the cockles of my heart...but remembers writers are going to suck from time to time...

'nuff said... :cool:

Tommy

11-13-2005, 08:45 AM

The problems with Dangerous are the following:

Danger gives off telepathic signals. Emma a super powerful telepath who spends large ammounts of time in the Danger room never notices these signals. Emma never even tries to telepathicly communicate with it.

Then there is the fact that Danger is just a bland Nimrod knock off. And a bland retread of Cerebro going nutso.

That is just inside the story.

Outside you have a complete disregard for the Genosha set up. You have it apparently being Xaiver's fault the Danger was "traped" (it wasn't nor was it enslaved) even though the Danger room had been just been distroyed by "Magneto." Immediatly after that Xaiver leaped onto a plane and flew off to Genosha. Danger basicly could only have been sentient for the run of Astonishing X-men which only took place over a few days. Then you have Mojo attacking in the danger room some time between Gifted and Dangerous which muddles the entire timeline beyond human recognition.

However Claremont laid the stinker that was Viper, Murder World, and London. That allmost made me drop the book.

The Fury

11-13-2005, 09:47 AM

Oh another complaint about it. In issue #11 (I think) Xavier drives a truck. I repeat Xavier Drives a truck. How did he do that? Doesn't he need to use his feet to work the peddles?

Black Hole

11-13-2005, 11:29 AM

Oh another complaint about it. In issue #11 (I think) Xavier drives a truck. I repeat Xavier Drives a truck. How did he do that? Doesn't he need to use his feet to work the peddles?

I guess we'll all have to acknowledge the possiblility that the truck had hand controls for a handicapped driver.

Hey, to borrow a note from the Scarlet Witch:

"It's not impossible, just very, very improbable! :)

Tommy

11-13-2005, 11:45 AM

I loved how in Uncanny X-Men Annual 8 Illyana Rasputin (Magik) depicted Emma Frost as the scum of the Earth.
That annual was Claremont's attempt at stuffing bestiality into an X-men comic. I would not really reference it as anything good. It was quite possibly one of the most disturbing things I have ever read.

fishtaco

11-13-2005, 01:54 PM

Oh another complaint about it. In issue #11 (I think) Xavier drives a truck. I repeat Xavier Drives a truck. How did he do that? Doesn't he need to use his feet to work the peddles?More importantly, where did he get a truck from in the first place? :D That annual was Claremont's attempt at stuffing bestiality into an X-men comic. I would not really reference it as anything good. It was quite possibly one of the most disturbing things I have ever read.What?! Whatever.

Tommy

11-13-2005, 02:12 PM

What?! Whatever.
The entire story ends with Kitty having sex with Lockheed. Then the real Kitty Pryde walks off with Lockheed in a very sexual way.

It was so disturbing.

Beast

11-13-2005, 02:17 PM

The entire story ends with Kitty having sex with Lockheed. Then the real Kitty Pryde walks off with Lockheed in a very sexual way.

It was so disturbing.
I think you're reading way into things, my dear. :)

Tommy

11-13-2005, 02:24 PM

I think you're reading way into things, my dear. :)
Lockheed chooses Kitty over an entire planet of female dragons. To quote Illyana "He could have stayed-- to enjoy a life of unending pleasure-- but no way was he going to desert his other self, his truest love." There is no way to not read sex into that.

The issue ends with Kitty thinking of Lockheed as an attractive man and Lockheed thinking of Kitty as a (presumably) attractive female dragon and they walk off.

Really Really Really Really creepy.

Beast

11-13-2005, 02:29 PM

Tommy

11-13-2005, 02:46 PM

That doesn't mean they're having sex. Sheesh! You have a dirty mind. :p
I really find it hard to believe that they start banding about lines like "truest love" and walk off fantasizing about each other and there is no sexual sub-text.

This is Claremont we are talking about. Almost everything he writes has a sexual sub-text.

Beast

11-13-2005, 02:51 PM

I really find it hard to believe that they start banding about lines like "truest love" and walk off fantasizing about each other and there is no sexual sub-text.

This is Claremont we are talking about. Almost everything he writes has a sexual sub-text.
So, true love and actually having sex is a different thing entirely. You're jumping to conclusions on it, without considering the fact that both know it wouldn't work out. Hence the thoughts of Lockheed as human, and Kitty as a dragon. They know they come from different worlds, so it's not possible they can be together. In short, sometimes a cigar is just a cigar. :p

Tommy

11-13-2005, 03:01 PM

So, true love and actually having sex is a different thing entirely.
True. You can have sex without True Love. However how many times have people been in true love with out sex, and referred to it as "True Love"? I can think of less than I could count on one hand. And all of those instances were of people who would have been having sex except for mitigating circumstances.
You're jumping to conclusions on it, without considering the fact that both know it wouldn't work out. Hence the thoughts of Lockheed as human, and Kitty as a dragon. They know they come from different worlds, so it's not possible they can be together. In short, sometimes a cigar is just a cigar. :p
Lilandra and Xavier were from different worlds, they managed just fine (and she is a bird).

And we all know in the real world such things happen with disturbing regularity.

And we all know Claremont loves to write sex into everything.

Sometimes a cigar is a Monica Lewinsky.

fishtaco

11-13-2005, 03:53 PM

Lockheed chooses Kitty over an entire planet of female dragons. To quote Illyana "He could have stayed-- to enjoy a life of unending pleasure-- but no way was he going to desert his other self, his truest love." There is no way to not read sex into that.

The issue ends with Kitty thinking of Lockheed as an attractive man and Lockheed thinking of Kitty as a (presumably) attractive female dragon and they walk off.

Really Really Really Really creepy.I don't think Lockheed intended to have sex with Kitty. The whole theme of the issue was friendship, cases in point Kitty and Illyana, and Kitty and Lockheed. The message was that Lockheed would rather be with all his friends aboard the Chicago (that was the name of their ship, right?) than just have sex with hundreds of female dragons for the rest of his life. Like Beast said, you are reading a bit too much into this.

Also, the recent AOA mini defied logic in every aspect, as did the Kwannon/Revanche story in the early 90's.

Faded

11-13-2005, 04:30 PM

as did the Kwannon/Revanche story in the early 90's.

It made more sense to me than what Claremont had intended.

PhoenixBoyX

11-13-2005, 04:38 PM

Gotta love fight threads. Swear to god. Why post sometimes?

Anyway-good responses all of you who actually read the criteria and responded with an actually valid response. Dislike does not make for lack of sense.
-Nick

fishtaco

11-14-2005, 06:39 AM

It made more sense to me than what Claremont had intended.But it contradicted what Claremont already established. It was a flat out ratsh*t continuity error. That's why it didn't make sense. And what exactly didn't make sense about what Claremont established/intended? Spiral manifested the Body Shoppe within Psylocke's psyche and changed her into an Asian warrior with the Boddy Shoppe. Then the Hand brainwashed her. It was all in Uncanny X-Men 256. What didn't make sense? :confused:

Hellfan

11-14-2005, 06:58 AM

Oh another complaint about it. In issue #11 (I think) Xavier drives a truck. I repeat Xavier Drives a truck. How did he do that? Doesn't he need to use his feet to work the peddles?

I think Xavier does low-level telekinesis (he does in the Ultimate universe)?

Claremont is my true love - I mean he made the X-men what they are today for god's sake!

Beast

11-14-2005, 08:02 AM

I think Xavier does low-level telekinesis (he does in the Ultimate universe)?

Claremont is my true love - I mean he made the X-men what they are today for god's sake!
Nyet. Other than a couple errors over the years, 616 Xavier doesn't have any telekinetic abilities. He could hower have physically pushed his leg down on the gas, so that can at least be Marvel No-Prized. :)

Faded

11-14-2005, 11:36 AM

But it contradicted what Claremont already established. It was a flat out ratsh*t continuity error. That's why it didn't make sense. And what exactly didn't make sense about what Claremont established/intended? Spiral manifested the Body Shoppe within Psylocke's psyche and changed her into an Asian warrior with the Boddy Shoppe. Then the Hand brainwashed her. It was all in Uncanny X-Men 256. What didn't make sense? :confused:

The fact that Psylocke needed to be turned a different ethnicity to become a warrior for Spiral. That just feels random for me personally. But I'm probably falling under the category of "dislike", as PhoenixBoyX said, than really confused.

I liked what Nicieza did. It happened. He admitted it was an honest mistake because he was missing an issue. But the fact that Claremont *appears* to be trying to erase her from history isn't too sportsmanlike. Continuity is further damaged when writers pick and choose what they wish to acknowledge as part of history.

jarrod

11-14-2005, 11:46 AM

Excalibur had a couple of incredibly weird inconsistent arcs.
Excalibur was weirdly inconsistant overall I think. It went from being the best X-Book around (under Claremont/Davis/Ellis) to the worst X-Book around (under everyone else) like clockwork. :/

DDM

11-14-2005, 01:54 PM

The fact that Psylocke needed to be turned a different ethnicity to become a warrior for Spiral. That just feels random for me personally. But I'm probably falling under the category of "dislike", as PhoenixBoyX said, than really confused.

I liked what Nicieza did. It happened. He admitted it was an honest mistake because he was missing an issue. But the fact that Claremont *appears* to be trying to erase her from history isn't too sportsmanlike. Continuity is further damaged when writers pick and choose what they wish to acknowledge as part of history.

Claremont is just establishing his original story as true. Kwannon was basically a deus ex machina since she conveniently died of the Legacy Virus not long after Psylocke's origin was revealed in X-Men #31-32. Also, the more Fabien Nicieza tried to explain Betsy--the more confused he became; Nicieza's origin made Psylocke's origin more convoluted than what was shown in Uncanny X-Men #256.

Using Fabien Nicieza's logic, Spiral needed an adamantium car before she transformed Lady Deathstrike into a cyborg in Uncanny X-Men #205. Really, when you think about it, Nincieza's origin just made more people more confused--even the writer.

Spiral is a powerful enough sorceress to warp reality to do whatever she needs. Her Body Shoppe does it moreso than Spiral without the boutique.

dazzler_slave

11-14-2005, 02:55 PM

The fact that Psylocke needed to be turned a different ethnicity to become a warrior for Spiral. That just feels random for me personally. But I'm probably falling under the category of "dislike", as PhoenixBoyX said, than really confused.

The reason I got out of it for why Betsy was turned asian was because the Hand wanted to brainwash her. Remember, when she washed up on the shores of Japan, she was british. THEN there was the story turning her Japanese and convincing her that she was an assassin for the Hand. I just figured Spiral was doing a job for the Hand. That she had been hired to do it. The change of ethnicity actually made sense to me.

DDM

11-14-2005, 03:06 PM

The reason I got out of it for why Betsy was turned asian was because the Hand wanted to brainwash her. Remember, when she washed up on the shores of Japan, she was british. THEN there was the story turning her Japanese and convincing her that she was an assassin for the Hand. I just figured Spiral was doing a job for the Hand. That she had been hired to do it. The change of ethnicity actually made sense to me.

Mojo says Uncanny X-Men #256 about the Hand can't have a Westerner running the Hong Kong underground; therefore, Betsy's body was transformed from Anglo-Saxon to Asian. Betsy's fragmented mind just to conform her body to its new reality. Part of Betsy's transformation was magick & part science as expressed within Psylocke's mind as Spiral's Body Shoppe.

LoneWolf21

11-14-2005, 03:24 PM

Hmm, going by the thread creator's original intent, I'd say the majority of Mutant X would be a strong candidate for this. ESPIACLLY the final arc, that had (all this is to the best of my recollection) included Dracula biting Havok, presumably turning him into a vampire as a last page cliffhanger....that was never addressed again, an insane, super-powered Captain America blowing up the moon with an energy blast, but couldn't destroy something else that was a few feet away, The Beyoner showing up, only to be revealed as a rsurected version of that world's Maddie Pryor, who wasn't actually evil but posessed by something called the Goblyn Force (I think), Havok, revealed as the nexus point of all realities (I'm calling it NPOAR for now), manages to make her not insane, and gets her to be the NPOAR instead, with I believe some help from "their" (in that I mean Maddie and the Havok of the Mutant X verse) kid, and it all ends with him floating in a black void and thinking "I remember living" or something like that.

Really, if you need a few laughs, try and find Paul O'Brian's reviews of the final issues for the series in the X-Axis archive. It's hilarious stuff.