Superman vs. Parallax (spoilers)

[PatrickG]

Okay.

The Parallax comparisons are brew all over the internet between Earth-2 Superman and Parallax. I figure it deserves its own thread.

I think a part of the shock is the big reveal on the last two pages and, quite frankly, characters always sound more meldodramatic towards the end of the issue.

So the differences between Superman and Parallax that I want to note right now are:

1) Superman has yet to kill anyone to acheive his objective and stated that he is apalled by killing.

Parallax killed people to acheive his objective.

2) Superman wants to restore something that once existed. (And fragments of it still do.)

Parallax wanted to restore a city that once existed. (And go further to create things that never did exist.)

3) Superman is trying to restore a world that was destroyed by (and technically created by) time travel.

Parallax wanted to restore a city that was destroyed by means other than time travel.

4) Superman wants to CHANGE a world into another world. (No destruction, necessarily.)

Parallax wanted to destroy a universe to save a city.

5) Superman's allies are super-heroes who he has offered to help.

Parallax's ally was a time travelling psyhcotic tyrant who he promised a world to rule.

6) Superman believes the world headed towards disaster if he does not act. (Crucial point. He believes that the current earth cannot be saved.)

Parallax tried to destroy a universe without any clear indicators that it was doomed without the drastic measures he promised.

7) Superman has yet to use violence against any hero.

Parallax started off by attacking Cosmic Boy from the Legion and KOed the current Superman when his presence was known.

8) Superman has access to unlimited information about events on earth.

Parallax had access to such information but showed no signs of using it.

9) There are lives depending on Superman's action. If he fails in taking drastic action, his Lois dies and the DCU earth is doomed to die too.

There were no lives depending on Parallax's success.

10) Superman has a plan for how to change the current earth; he may be playing God but he has an objective which involves no loss of life and he has an idea of how to fix things that's rooted from a point of observing the DCU (and awareness of the pre-Crisis DCU). The history of Earth-2 is a known quantity for him and he knows for a fact that events would play out better.

Parallax made up his plan as he went along; he was playing God and committing genocide for the sake of a plan that he created on a whim. He showed no indicator of how he knew the outcome of his actions would lead to a better world (unless you had blind faith in him). The history of the universe(s) that Parallax set out to create were unknown quantities that might be better or worse; it's impossible to say which -- although Parallax's promise to Extant would seem to indicate that he was not adverse to creating a world worse than the one he started with.

I think these ten points are CRUCIAL, CRUCIAL differences.

I sympathized somewhat with Parallax and as of right now, I think the Earth-2 Superman is on the right track. How this story continues to play out will make or break whether or not I think his plan is the right one.

[Buried Alien]

Interestingly, Kal-L has apparently been observing the DCU ever since he's been in Alex Luthor's paradise dimension. That means he's probably witnessed the destruction of Coast City, Hal Jordan's transformation into Parallax, and Zero Hour. Kal-L, a wiser man than most, would certainly have learned from what he saw of Parallax and not repeat Hal's mistakes.

And as far as we know, no "Yellow Fear Monster" is manipulating Kal-L. :)

Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

[Sean Whitmore]

A lot of good points there, but it's way too early for an accurate comparison. A lot of those "yet"s you mentioned may very well happen before IC is over with. :)

And we still have no idea exactly how Kal thinks he's going to be able to A) bring every dead/erased person of Earth-2 back to life, much less B) repopulate Earth-1 with them without any loss of life. I doubt even HE knows...which means Luthor's motivations may have to be brought into play here.


SEAN

[PatrickG]

...?

I'm confused by what you're saying.

My assumption was either:

A) That he would go back and save Earth-2.

B) That he would find a way to harmonically bring Earth-2 to the forefront of the existing earth.

Repopulating the planet and whatnot don't sound like Superman and he practically expressed how he found killing to be unacceptable in the same breath that he said he was bringing Earth-2 back.

[Sean Whitmore]

Either of those could be correct, I'm just saying we have no real idea yet.

My guess is that Luthor made a bunch of promises along the lines of "everything will be fine, nobody will be hurt", etc. And Superman, desperate to save Lois, just ate it all up.

Then when it comes down to it, Luthor will reveal that things aren't as simple as all that, and sacrifices will have to be made. Which is when Kal-L will no doubt turn against him.

But that's just where I think things are heading. I could be WAAAAAY off. :)


SEAN

[krammocon]

...?

I'm confused by what you're saying.

My assumption was either:

A) That he would go back and save Earth-2.

B) That he would find a way to harmonically bring Earth-2 to the forefront of the existing earth.

Repopulating the planet and whatnot don't sound like Superman and he practically expressed how he found killing to be unacceptable in the same breath that he said he was bringing Earth-2 back.

Hmmm... I haven't thought of that. I guess that's a more acceptable and easiest way, should they decide to reboot. Therefore changing some events that happened in the past, and for the betterment of the present and future.

[Guts/Batman]

And as far as we know, no "Yellow Fear Monster" is manipulating Kal-L. :)

Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)


No Yellow Fear Monster yet!!! ;)

I swear, DC made it's own running joke out of Parallax. I wonder if they did that intentionally.

Just like with the numerous Clayfaces and Deathstroke impersonation powers.

[Vic Perfecto!]

And as far as we know, no "Yellow Fear Monster" is manipulating Kal-L. :)

Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

Oh yeah? What color do you call Alex Luthor's armor, hrm? ;)

-Vic

[Sk8maven]

Woah! In the words of Marty McFly, "History is gonna change!"

Maven

[superlurker]

8) Superman has access to unlimited information about events on earth.

Parallax had access to such information but showed no signs of using it.

Actually, this point would appear to be inaccurate. If he and the others in that paradise-thingy had access to unlimited information, why would Alex Luthor need to set himself up in IC #2 to gather information and find out what the villains are up to?

We don't really know how much information they have or have been fed. But based on the above, it would appear to be incomplete at the very least.

[Just_A_Rat]

Actually, this point would appear to be inaccurate. If he and the others in that paradise-thingy had access to unlimited information, why would Alex Luthor need to set himself up in IC #2 to gather information and find out what the villains are up to?

We don't really know how much information they have or have been fed. But based on the above, it would appear to be incomplete at the very least.

I was thinking the same thing - it's a possiblity that they could only see what was going on with Super Heroes.

[Just_A_Rat]

Just a few different ways of looking at the same thoughts:



1) Superman has yet to kill anyone to acheive his objective and stated that he is apalled by killing.

Parallax killed people to acheive his objective.

Agreed.


2) Superman wants to restore something that once existed. (And fragments of it still do.)

Parallax wanted to restore a city that once existed. (And go further to create things that never did exist.)

Well, the world Supermna is trying to restore, if it supplants the existing world as the "dominant" world will create something that never did exist - there has never been an Earth-2 dominant single universe.



3) Superman is trying to restore a world that was destroyed by (and technically created by) time travel.

Parallax wanted to restore a city that was destroyed by means other than time travel.

I'm not sure the means of destruction are significant in any way. As with just about any action, if you go to a micro enough level, you will find differences, but I think the parallel is clearly there - they are both acting to restore something that was destroyed and that they see as "writing a wrong."



4) Superman wants to CHANGE a world into another world. (No destruction, necessarily.)

Parallax wanted to destroy a universe to save a city.

Well, what are the implications for people who don't have Earth-2 counterparts? for those who were born since the Crisis? For those from an Earth-1 dominant future (Booster and Kid Flash) where things (almost need to) evolve very differently? We don't know, and neitehr does Kal-L. What happens to Bruce and Clark and Diana? Are they replaced with "better" versions of themselves? How is that not destroying them, as they currently exist?



5) Superman's allies are super-heroes who he has offered to help.

Parallax's ally was a time travelling psyhcotic tyrant who he promised a world to rule.

Pure speculation - Kal-L's only allies so far are those who were in the Paradise dimension with him (who have not place on the current earth) and Power Girl, who obviously has a vested interest in Earth-2 coming back. He is trying to help the other heroes, but Parallax also started out trying to do something he thought was good - he just fell away from that pretty quickly.



6) Superman believes the world headed towards disaster if he does not act. (Crucial point. He believes that the current earth cannot be saved.)

Parallax tried to destroy a universe without any clear indicators that it was doomed without the drastic measures he promised.

Parallax was trying to save a city that alerady had been destroyed - it had been proven that it couldn't be saved without his intervetion - it wasn't.



7) Superman has yet to use violence against any hero.

Parallax started off by attacking Cosmic Boy from the Legion and KOed the current Superman when his presence was known.

Well, but to be fair, the first two issues of IC were just build-up. From what I have seen from future issues (nothing not available on the net, mind you), you can't necessarily rely on this trend continuing. (See the DC February Solicitations)



8) Superman has access to unlimited information about events on earth.

Parallax had access to such information but showed no signs of using it.

This has already been adressed in previous posts - whether he has unlimited access or not is debatable, but her certianly has only been looking at certain people and only a few at a time - there is a limit to how much information he can process, after all.



9) There are lives depending on Superman's action. If he fails in taking drastic action, his Lois dies and the DCU earth is doomed to die too.

There were no lives depending on Parallax's success.

Parallax would disagree - he would claim that all those lives already lost in Coast City were dependant on his actions - after all, he was originally trying to gather enough power to bring them back. And Superman believes the DCU is doomed to die. That doesn't make it so.



10) Superman has a plan for how to change the current earth; he may be playing God but he has an objective which involves no loss of life and he has an idea of how to fix things that's rooted from a point of observing the DCU (and awareness of the pre-Crisis DCU). The history of Earth-2 is a known quantity for him and he knows for a fact that events would play out better.

Parallax made up his plan as he went along; he was playing God and committing genocide for the sake of a plan that he created on a whim. He showed no indicator of how he knew the outcome of his actions would lead to a better world (unless you had blind faith in him). The history of the universe(s) that Parallax set out to create were unknown quantities that might be better or worse; it's impossible to say which -- although Parallax's promise to Extant would seem to indicate that he was not adverse to creating a world worse than the one he started with.

Again, he doesn't know that for a fact. He believes that, but let's not forget there were heroes who killed in Earth-2 (including most of the JSA in early apperances) and heroes who were killed (Mr. Terrific murdered by a Batman possesed by the Spirit King) we don't know how the time since Crisis would play out on Earth-2, particularly with significant influences from the other earths. What if it is a bit of one of the other earths folded into the current one, and not Earth-1's dominance that is causing the darkenss. Then that kernel would still be present in a unified earth which is Earth-2 dominant.

Superman is making cosmic decisions, based on unproven, and unprovable, assumptions. Before the Crisis, in the Silver Age of comics, was Earth-1 all dark? Nope. But it turned that way after the Crisis. Why would Kal-L believe it would be any different for any of the other earths? Purely becuase he wants to. There is no evidence to back up his claims.

Now, I really hope that they do not take Kal-L down the "misguided hero" path. I love that character, and all the Golder Agers. If I had my way, he would be the Superman.



I think these ten points are CRUCIAL, CRUCIAL differences.

I sympathized somewhat with Parallax and as of right now, I think the Earth-2 Superman is on the right track. How this story continues to play out will make or break whether or not I think his plan is the right one.

I don't think some of these differences are as crusial as you do, obviously. I think both characters are starting down a dangerous road with the best of intentions. Of course, I think there are few characters with his strength of character, and I hope he will make the right choices.

[PatrickG]

You're assuming that he doesn't have reasoning and I'm assuming that he DOES have reasoning that he hasn't gone into yet.

There's over a hundred pages of exposition coming on Kal-L's motivations in the next four months.

So my take is that his plan has a great deal more detail, reasoning and information gathering behind it than what we've seen and that Johns just made sure that Kal-L said the most controversial thing possible on the last page of #2 to get the readers talking... and that everything will get ironed out.

Earth-2 Superman will be the star of anywhere between twelve (bare minimum) and a hundred to two hundred or so comics in the next year and a half. It's almost a given that he will appear on more pages in the next year than he did in the 60s, 70s and 80s put together.

I doubt we've even seen the full tip of the iceburg on his plan, his motivations, reasoning, approach, methods, etc. yet.

[Just_A_Rat]

I agree that there is a lot more to come, I just enjoy playing devil's advocate, so felt that I should point out the assumptions your points were based on, so those who come in here to read the thread will have an overview of the points on both sides of the arguement. As I said at the end of my post, I think Kal-L has enough chracter to not fall into the traps that Hal did. And I think that Johns has enough respect for the character to write him that way.

[IamtheRock3]

well dont think Supes plan that much

Sense when he punch through the wall..the other heroes were kind of surprise. They seem to think they just would keep watching.

Also let not forget what happening to lois has a LITTLE to do with his motivation

then again the other issues may prove me wrong..but sense this called CRISIS..dont think thing will go smoothly..and dont see how merging universe size omlet..wont result in breaking a few eggs.

[superlurker]

You're assuming that he doesn't have reasoning and I'm assuming that he DOES have reasoning that he hasn't gone into yet.

There's over a hundred pages of exposition coming on Kal-L's motivations in the next four months.

So my take is that his plan has a great deal more detail, reasoning and information gathering behind it than what we've seen and that Johns just made sure that Kal-L said the most controversial thing possible on the last page of #2 to get the readers talking... and that everything will get ironed out.

Earth-2 Superman will be the star of anywhere between twelve (bare minimum) and a hundred to two hundred or so comics in the next year and a half. It's almost a given that he will appear on more pages in the next year than he did in the 60s, 70s and 80s put together.

I doubt we've even seen the full tip of the iceburg on his plan, his motivations, reasoning, approach, methods, etc. yet.

That may be. I would agree that what we've been served is a probably typical final page shocker, and there might be more going on with Kal-L than he's let on so far.

However, on the other hand, I doubt he's really being all that complex about his planning of this. He's always been a man of action; him bursting out was all about taking action when things have gotten out of hand. That's contrasted by the perceived _lack_ of action of the modern Superman, who, it would seem, has sat around whining about just being a man while the world has gone to heck -- because he hasn't been a proper super-man. I'm not necessarily saying that's how it is, but I don't think Kal-L has made some vast sweeping plan based on plotting out a lot of complex variables and whatnot.

In fact, judging on Infinite Crisis #2, the opposite would seem to be the case. Notice how Superman interrupts Alex Luthor when Alex was theorizing about how Power Girl was able to live on in the new universe. Superman basically dismisses it as Power Girl being really great, while this universe sucks. It would seem that Alex Luthor might have been getting to something important to the overall story, though. Probably something the reader isn't supposed to know yet. But that scene doesn't really give the impression that Kal-L's plan is very, shall we say, scientific. He seems more dismissive of learning more than anything else -- he's already got an answer that's good enough for him anyway. And that's what he's going to act upon.

What's more, regarding Alex, it seems that more than being manipulative, the vibe he's giving off in IC #2 is one of doubt -- that something's wrong, and he doesn't quite know what. When he notes how "it was nothing less than a miracle" how they escaped the place they were in -- it might almost seem he was questioning it in some way. And then there's him trying to figure out what the villains are doing and the anomalies in this universe. It would seem that he's suspecting that something more is going on than what Kal-L suspects.

As the reader, we're furthermore given still more reason to doubt the reasonability of Kal-L's plan. What triggers him into action isn't any form of observation that the way to save the universe is to change it. It's his emotional attachment to Lois; she's dying, he wants to save her. Changing the entire universe to do that is the means, not the end. Of course, he hasn't revealed what exactly his plan is yet, and I strongly doubt it's omnicidal. The cover with the image of the two Earths seems to be revealing enough. But his plan, for many different reasons, doesn't seem to be born out of reason.

He's a man of action. His beloved is dying. He's acting to save her. And he'll move Heaven, Earth and Hell alike to do that.

[Anthony]

1) Superman has yet to kill anyone to acheive his objective and stated that he is apalled by killing.

Parallax killed people to acheive his objective.

So far agreed, this is the one difference I think will probably remain as long as DC has any integrity.

2) Superman wants to restore something that once existed. (And fragments of it still do.)

Parallax wanted to restore a city that once existed. (And go further to create things that never did exist.)

There's no difference as Parallax only started with wanting to fix the city and ended up wanting to fix a lot more "wrongs" as well. Thus they both are trying to restore something that once existed.

3) Superman is trying to restore a world that was destroyed by (and technically created by) time travel.

Parallax wanted to restore a city that was destroyed by means other than time travel.

Seems like you're trying to argue scale. Problem is Parallax, while he started on the scale of fixing the city quickly expanded to wanting to fix the whole universe. And I never realize style of destruction was important when we're talking about destroying a universe. Does it matter how the universe was destroyed, outside of possible preventative measures.? Big anti-Matter bomb versus Big Bang still causes the same destruction.

4) Superman wants to CHANGE a world into another world. (No destruction, necessarily.)

Parallax wanted to destroy a universe to save a city.

And how does that not destroy the world? Is it the same world? No.

And Parallax wanted to destroy a universe to save the universe. Coast City was the catalyst.

5) Superman's allies are super-heroes who he has offered to help.

Parallax's ally was a time travelling psyhcotic tyrant who he promised a world to rule.

So far one hero.
A hero, who has been revealed to have a plethora of psychological dependancy and worthiness issues. She was a much better character when she was independant by choice as opposed to because she felt as if she didn't belong.

Don't forget Extant was also once a hero as well.

6) Superman believes the world headed towards disaster if he does not act. (Crucial point. He believes that the current earth cannot be saved.)

Parallax tried to destroy a universe without any clear indicators that it was doomed without the drastic measures he promised.

His belief system doesn't make it right. And who is he to judge that the current Earth can not be saved? How does that not sound like Dr. Doom?

7) Superman has yet to use violence against any hero.

Parallax started off by attacking Cosmic Boy from the Legion and KOed the current Superman when his presence was known.

Superman just broke out of his pocket universe. He'll be coming to blows soon enough.

Parallax actually started by traveling through time getting acclimated to his newfound abilities.

8) Superman has access to unlimited information about events on earth.

Parallax had access to such information but showed no signs of using it.

Superman reached the same conclusion that Parallax did. How is it not the same thing?

9) There are lives depending on Superman's action. If he fails in taking drastic action, his Lois dies and the DCU earth is doomed to die too.

There were no lives depending on Parallax's success.

The 8+million poor souls of Coast City = no lives? You sure about that?
But if you're talking about named characters, let's just add Jason Todd to that list.

10) Superman has a plan for how to change the current earth; he may be playing God but he has an objective which involves no loss of life and he has an idea of how to fix things that's rooted from a point of observing the DCU (and awareness of the pre-Crisis DCU). The history of Earth-2 is a known quantity for him and he knows for a fact that events would play out better.

Parallax made up his plan as he went along; he was playing God and committing genocide for the sake of a plan that he created on a whim. He showed no indicator of how he knew the outcome of his actions would lead to a better world (unless you had blind faith in him). The history of the universe(s) that Parallax set out to create were unknown quantities that might be better or worse; it's impossible to say which -- although Parallax's promise to Extant would seem to indicate that he was not adverse to creating a world worse than the one he started with.

Wait, how does his speculation that his earth was better equate to fact. He has no idea if things will play out the way he thinks they will. All he know, is that he thinks that his world would be better. Honestly I wouldn't be surprised if Anti-Monitor is pulling Kal-L's strings.

And didn't Parallax show on panel what he would be creating to all the heroes? If so, you're revising Parallax into the Yellow Fear Monster and that is not what happened during Zero Hour. I'm the first to admit that Zero Hour was a mess, but not for any of the reasons you're using here.

I'm not quite sure. I don't have the issue with me but didn't Hal betray Extant anyway? So his offer to give him a place in the universe was a bluff.

I think these ten points are CRUCIAL, CRUCIAL differences.
I really have to disagree with you on whether these points were crucial or not, but eye of the beholder and all that.

I sympathized somewhat with Parallax and as of right now, I think the Earth-2 Superman is on the right track. How this story continues to play out will make or break whether or not I think his plan is the right one.
I don't have nearly as much faith in him as you do. I trust him as much as I'd trust Adam Warlock with the Infinity Guantlet. Well intentioned yeah, but ultimately fallible.

[Choppa]

4) Superman wants to CHANGE a world into another world. (No destruction, necessarily.)

Parallax wanted to destroy a universe to save a city.

Huh? Last time I read Zero Hour Hal wanted to recreate the entire universe without all of its tragedies, not just Coast City.

[Bored at 3:00AM]

Just because Superman seems to be a major antagonist within Infinite Crisis, that doesn't mean he's the villain of the piece.

Hell, thus far, Kal-L has come off as the hero of the story.

[Guts/Batman]

Just because Superman seems to be a major antagonist within Infinite Crisis, that doesn't mean he's the villain of the piece.

Hell, thus far, Kal-L has come off as the hero of the story.

Exactly.

I think the word, "villain" is being tossed around far too much.

[Sean Whitmore]

Most people are calling him "the villain", not literally the villain. As in, he's the guy that the (post-crisis) heroes will have to fight at the end of the series. Not that he's actually villainous.


SEAN

[Choppa]

So you guys agree that Parallex (Hal, not the yellow bug) wasn't a villian right? I mean if you were in his place wouldn't you want to do the same thing?

[Guts/Batman]

I consider Parallax a villain. Just like I consider Magneto a villain. Just like I consder Black Adam a villain.

There is a line that a villain crosses that a hero won't. And that is...take a life. In other words, villains take the easy way out generally. And that is to kill your opponent.

Just because you can sympathize with him doesn't make him a hero by any stretch of the imagination. If I were to have done what Parallax did, I would be a villain, I just woudn't think I was.

But that doesn't make me a hero. "Hero" and "villain" is all POV.

[Bored at 3:00AM]

Parallax murdered people and conspired with murderers to forward his own ends...that's a villain. At least in the superhero world. In the real world, we call that the government.

[Chris Thomas]

isn't the yellow fear monster sort of 'goldish color'? THERE IT IS! clearly they are the same being

also, same number of letters in their names

[IamtheRock3]

Parallax murdered people and conspired with murderers to forward his own ends...that's a villain. At least in the superhero world. In the real world, we call that the government.


Well if his plan worked it would all be undone

and everyone would have happy lives. In his mind at least.

[Choppa]

But that doesn't make me a hero. "Hero" and "villain" is all POV.

Exactly, that's the key statement and it contradicts what you said before it. The terms hero and villian are by POV and defenition. So by saying that Parallex is a villian for whatever reasons, you are setting your own terms for what you feel constitutes villiany.

To me Magneto and Hal aren't villians, and not just because I can sympathize with them, but because their intentions are noble, just like the x-man and the heroes they fight. In the Marvel Universe, it's just one POV that mutants and humans should co-exist, but it doesn't detract from the notion that mutants aren't superior. What if they really are the next evolutionary phase? Then if in the future they replace humans like humans replaced apes, then the whole debate is pointless.

With Hal, the problem seems to be not that he can undo all of the injustices that happened in history, but that one man shouldn't have the ability to do it. But then why do superheroes even exist in the first place? If Hal can't intervene and save all the people who needed saving, then what's the difference between that and say Superman catching someone who falls out of a building? Where do you draw the line between helping humanity and being a crutch for them? Doesn't it seem pointless to keep trying to save humanity knowing that evil will always exist? Yes it's easier to go with Hal's plan, but in the end, isn't it more efficient?

You mention the idea of killing. So if Hal had the same plan, but didn't kill anyone to achieve it, would that make him any less of a "villian?" Would that in fact make him a hero? After all, he is trying to help people and undo injustice. As long as he isn't killing people, then he is no different from any other hero.

[Guts/Batman]

But as the reader...We are able to see all the POVs of the characters, so it doesn't really matter what I, the reader, think.

While I read from the perspective of the characters in the story, I also can't avoid reading the story from the perspective of the all-knowing reader. So from the perspective of the reader, Parallax is a villain. Magneto is a villain (or at the very least an anti-hero).

That's why I view him as a villain.

There are only two times I can remember where the villain says he is the villain: 1) Shishio Makato and 2) "Evil" Lex in Smallville.

When Parallax remade the universe in Zero Hour, did he not have to destroy one universe to create the one?

Noble intentions are one thing but it how you go about setting those noble intentions into reality is what separates the two classes of characters.

Misguided principles don't make a character a villain. It's how he translates those misguided ideals and principles into reality that make him the villain. A villain's methods is what makes him a villain or an anti-hero.

The ends don't justify the means.

I mean, right now, I am having a hard time justifying calling Wonder Woman a hero or an anti-hero right now.

So if E2 Superman should go about making his principles into reality through means that makes him a villain, he becomes a reader from the perspective of the reader.

[superlurker]

To me Magneto and Hal aren't villians, and not just because I can sympathize with them, but because their intentions are noble, just like the x-man and the heroes they fight.

Villainy isn't defined by good intentions. Villainy is defined by what you do to achieve your goal. Otherwise, you might as well start lauding Hitler as a hero, since he thought he was making the world better by doing what he did. Good intentions. Pretty much everyone has them, from some point of view.

Magneto is a villain, not because of his goals, but because of how he seeks to achieve those goals.

There's that old saying about the road to Hell being paved with good intentions. Even the noblest ends do not justify foul means.

[Bored at 3:00AM]

Well if his plan worked it would all be undone

and everyone would have happy lives. In his mind at least.

And that's why Parallax was an insanely powerful nutjob, which Superman is clearly not at this point. Supes seems to have a legit point about how screwed up the universe they created for them has become.

[IamtheRock3]

And that's why Parallax was an insanely powerful nutjob, which Superman is clearly not at this point. Supes seems to have a legit point about how screwed up the universe they created for them has become.


Things werent a bed of roses when Hal tried to remake the universe

Also while Earth now isnt the HAPPY sunshine that DC pre criis was I wouldnt exactly call it hopless

Also Pre cris had it Dark "Lets punch a Jap" Gun totint Batman moments.

[superlurker]

Things werent a bed of roses when Hal tried to remake the universe

Also while Earth now isnt the HAPPY sunshine that DC pre criis was I wouldnt exactly call it hopless

Also Pre cris had it Dark "Lets punch a Jap" Gun totint Batman moments.

I wouldn't equate slapping Japs with being dark. The message back then was clear: You could happily slap a Jap. And happy isn't dark.

[Choppa]

Villainy isn't defined by good intentions. Villainy is defined by what you do to achieve your goal. Otherwise, you might as well start lauding Hitler as a hero, since he thought he was making the world better by doing what he did. Good intentions. Pretty much everyone has them, from some point of view.

Magneto is a villain, not because of his goals, but because of how he seeks to achieve those goals.

There's that old saying about the road to Hell being paved with good intentions. Even the noblest ends do not justify foul means.


Which is why I said this:

You mention the idea of killing. So if Hal had the same plan, but didn't kill anyone to achieve it, would that make him any less of a "villian?" Would that in fact make him a hero? After all, he is trying to help people and undo injustice. As long as he isn't killing people, then he is no different from any other hero.

[superlurker]

With regards to Hal and Magneto, that point is moot. They've killed to achieve their goals. Hal was retconned with the big yellow fear monster, of course.

With regards to Kal-L speculating on that would be jumping the gun; we haven't seen how he intends to accomplish his goals yet. Odds are, he's not going to do anything we'd really consider villainous.