Mort Weisinger on Continuity

[Kid Omega]

What's pathetic is either one of you thought you could "win" a thread about comicbooks.

I'd settle for a "I disagree, but I see your point."

Pathetic, I know.

-a

[Ed Cunard]

I think you missed the entire point about TVs. There is something like 2.5 TVs in your average home. The Average American family now spends nine hours a day watching TV. Higher than ever before. You would think that would translate into higher ratings, but it doesn't. The highest rated shows are beneath the cancellation point of the 70's or 50's.

Movies have suffered a declining audience since the 1930's.

Magazine sales have diminished to almost nothing compared to previous decades.

If every comic to be produced were The Watchmen or Maus, comics would still have a much smaller audience than in the 30's, 40's, or 50's. That is just the nature of our society. It has nothing to do with continuity.

While I have no strong opinions one way or the other regarding continuity in superhero comics, I think I have to point out that the television analogy isn't the best one that can be made.

If you're looking strictly within one medium, the declining numbers don't apply as much--when television had huge ratings, there were typically only five or six stations available in most regions, and often, less. Now, television viewers have, on average, about forty to fifty cable stations with standard cable packages (not taking into account the additional channels provided by digital cable, or alternate delivery systems like satellite television). Today, cable penetration accounts for about 92% of households. As much as broadcasters will say that cable doesn't impact ratings of broadcast television (I've heard that quoted in the office before), it's simply not true.

I don't have numbers for comics publishing on hand, but if I'm remembering correctly, there were less comics publishers in the Golden and Silver ages than there are today (and I'm including the really small publishers today as part of those numbers--the guys that release one or two comics only), but they were on more equal footing in terms of titles released and sales. Today, there are more publishers, and it would seem like the smaller press would somewhat parallel the way cable draws viewers from broadcast, but unlike the increased amount of hours viewers are watching television or the increased amount of televisions per household, comics have shrunk in terms of delivery. Even manga, which has more support in bookstores than superhero comics or alternative comics, isn't distributed as widely as comics were from the '30s to the '70s.

I guess my pet peeve is that there is no one reason that the comics medium isn't as strong as it used to be--there are many factors that play into it. Can continuity make things seem inaccessible for casual readers/viewers? Sure. Can it also make everything seem better and interconnected and all that for others? Sure. I don't see why it has to be mutally exclusive. Before things got to the either/or thing, I think Rice made a stellar point--continuity is a tool that can help a good writer come up with something great, but it also can be a crutch that makes a less talented scribe hobble through to a finish line where no one is cheering--they've gathered, but that's just what they do at the end of a race.

[Tom]

I'd settle for a "I disagree, but I see your point."

Pathetic, I know.

-a
No, just silly. Conversation shouldn't be goal-oriented.

[Gaz]

I'd settle for a "I disagree, but I see your point."

Pathetic, I know.

-a
Hey, I obviously disagree, but I think you're being too simplistic/monochromatic in your point. Now complaining about the length of Peter Parker's hair in his various appearances? Stupid. Wanting a character who was killed off to either be dead in future stories or to have why they're alive explained? Reasonable. Marriages, family, setting tweaks? If they're well-received or even not objected to, fine. If the iconography is the only important thing, then this shouldn't be a problem, and if not, then it's simply a development in a story that does things like that.
And it's not like you're being a beacon of understanding to my views.

[Ray R.]

Answer this though, could I watch Scrubs, or The West Wing, only knowing the gist of the set-up and still more or less make sense of what was happening, and even enjoy it? Both have tons of back-story at play, explicit and implicit, and yet they get consistent ratings and are renewed every year.


Well, not to quibble, but I just started watching Scrubs this year, and needed only one episode to get the characters down: John McGinley is the gruff veteran, Zach Braff is goofy but sensitive, the Janitor is laconic but sometimes mischievous, etc., etc. No backstory necessary, which I think is the first rule of sitcom writing.

The characters express themselves in individual voices, consistent from episode to episode but divergent enough to create the friction that makes most comedy work.

"Arrested Development", I think, does play off continuity (very well), if only to make it that more hilarious, but the characters' mannerisms are different enough and consistent enough from episode to episode, that you can walk in cold, and still get a kick out of the show. I'm thinking last week's show with the destruction of "Tiny Town" as a prime example....

The Sopranos? That's a tougher call, but I think the continuity is more season by season-related than overall. David Chase and his writers deliberately pick an underlying theme (everyone remember the bear this year) and build the season on that theme. You can watch a season of the Sopranos without having needed to have seen the other 4 or 5 seasons -- it helps, but it's not absolutely necessary.

And that leads to another point. Continuity (in this case synonymous with consistency) for the sake of story arcs is a necessity. Once the story arc is over, then you fall back on canon, and start over....like I said before -- orchestrating a static universe is a constrictive exercise, and often limits creative freedom rather than helps it.

Case in point: Identity Crisis, which both embraced longstanding continuity and then pissed all over it by having the characters ruthlessly and criminally exploited in order to shake up that same continuity. It didn't work, because it severely disrespected and abused the underlying canon in order to tell an "adult story" which at the same time affected continuity across the board. All the while, the first thing in seeing Blue Beetle's brains graphically splattered across the panel was not "how does this affect continuity.....," it was you're taking a kid's character in a $1 book and scattering his grey matter (while curiously at the same time Giffen and Maguire were making Maxwell Lord Abbott to Guy Gardner's Costello over in the secret files of the Justice League.....).

As to the numbers of comics sold, I posted on this earlier (mucho credits to the Nostalgia Zine and Mark Carlson for deriving the figures and commentary):

1942
Captain Marvel 1,000,000 plus
Superman 1,000,000 plus
Walt Disney Comics and Stories 1,000,000
Batman 913,000
Captain America (peak sales, circa 1942) 900,000
All-Star Comics 440,800
Shadow (1941) 400,000
Ace Comics 279,163
King Comics 256,653
Blue Bolt Comics 200,490

In 1942, Walt Disney’s Comics and Stories is the first humor title to earn a million plus smile. Even minor titles regularly sell over 200,000 copies a month. With America’s entry in World War II, paper restrictions keep the size of the average comic book down, and restrict the total number of titles that can be published. But as a wartime escape, the comic book itself cannot be repressed.

Immediate post-war sales really boom. Walt Disney Comics and Stories becomes the best selling comic book in the industry circa 1945, a distinction it won’t relinquish until approximately 1960. Archie joins Batman as the latest characters to enter million-plus sales territory. And while comic book critics fretted over the popularity of Crimes Does Not Pay, its popularity never exceeded that of the most popular crime-fighters. Crime pays, it turns out. Just not as well. Even so-so titles now regularly sell half a million copies per issue.

1946
Walt Disney Comics and Stories circa 1,800,000
Superman 1,672,169
Batman 1,451,053
Archie Comics (1947) 1,135,324
Captain Marvel 873,820
Crime Does Not Pay 811,087
Whiz Comics 674,106
Topix 600,000
Suzie 586,780
True Comics 572,753

After 1947, sales for super-hero comic books drop precipitously, while the antics of Donald Duck, Bugs Bunny and the like take off. Far more than crime and horror comic books, romance titles such as Sweethearts, published by Fawcett, and Young Romance by Prize show remarkable strength. Educational and religious comic books like Classics Illustrated, Topix and Treasure Chest also produce surprisingly robust circulation figures. EC’s adaptations of the Bible have sold over a million copies by the mid-fifties.

1952
Walt Disney Comics and Stories 2,850,000
Sweethearts (Fawcett) circa 1,000,000
Young Romance circa 800,000
Classics Illustrated 670,000
Romantic Adventures (ACG) circa 650,000
Adventures into the Unknown (ACG-1953) circa 550,000
Tales From the Crypt (EC-1953) 400,000
Treasure Chest 329.903
Mad (EC-1953) 325,000
Two-Fisted Tales (EC-1953) 225,000

Forget EC. Dell Comics rule the decade. By 1954, while Dell’s total number of comic book titles is only 15% of those published, it controls nearly a third of the total market. Dell has more million plus sellers than any other company before or since, including Bugs Bunny, Woody Woodpecker, Looney Tunes, Donald Duck, Uncle Scrooge, Mickey Mouse, Porky Pig, Tom and Jerry and Little Lulu. A one-shot film adaptation like Peter Pan prompts over three million and a half purchases alone. Sales in more “suspect” genres such as crime, romance and horror, drop markedly with the establishment of the stifling Comic’s Code Authority in 1955. There is only one subversive survivor from the EC line of comic books. No longer, a color comic book, Mad is repackaged as Mad Magazine, a black-and-white magazine. It also expands its satiric scope to make fun of domestic life and a wide range of movies and television shows. Mad Magazine, as much as Playboy, is one of the most notable publishing successes of the fifties.

1960
Mad Magazine 1,048,550
Uncle Scrooge 1,040,543
Walt Disney Comics and Stories 1,004,901
Donald Duck 930,613
Superman 810,000
Dennis the Menace 800,000
Bugs Bunny 615,552
Mickey Mouse 568,803
Woody Woodpecker 537,773
Batman 502,000
Lone Ranger 408,711
Casper the Friendly Ghost 399,985
Blackhawk 316,000
Adventures Into the Unknown (ACG) 192,500

I don't have exact figures for Archie Comics in 1960, but it was probably just over a half a million per issue.

I noticed earlier the lack of superhero books for most of the time period after the late forties.....compare that to today's top 50 books:


AUGUST 2005 Comic Book orders from Diamond Comic Distributors
Comic-book Title Issue Price Publisher Est. sales
1 Justice 1 $2.99 DC 190,400
2 New Avengers 8 $2.50 Marvel 156,000
3 New Avengers 9 $2.50 Marvel 145,700
4 House of M 5 $2.99 Marvel 140,700
5 Astonishing X-Men 12 $2.99 Marvel 125,800
6 Supergirl 1 $2.99 DC 123,400
7 Green Lantern 3 $2.99 DC 108,500
8 Green Lantern 4 $2.99 DC 96,900
9 OMAC Project 5 $2.50 DC 94,000
10 JLA 117 $2.50 DC 88,000
11 Uncanny X-Men 463 $2.50 Marvel 87,600
12 Villains United 4 $2.50 DC 84,700
13 Ultimate s Annual 1 $3.99 Marvel 82,700
14 Ultimate Iron Man 3 $2.99 Marvel 77,400
15 X-Men 174 $2.50 Marvel 76,300
16 Ultimate X-Men 62 $2.50 Marvel 76,200
17 Wolverine 31 $2.50 Marvel 75,600
18 Ultimate Spider-Man 81 $2.50 Marvel 75,600
19 Rann Thanagar War 4 $2.50 DC 75,100
20 Teen Titans 27 $2.50 DC 74,800
21 Amazing Spider-Man 523 $2.50 Marvel 72,000
22 Day of Vengeance 5 $2.50 DC 71,900
23 Ultimate Fantastic Four 22 $2.50 Marvel 71,800
24 Ultimate Spider-Man Annual 1 $3.99 Marvel 70,800
25 Ultimate X-Men Annual 1 $3.99 Marvel 67,900
26 Young Avengers 6 $2.99 Marvel 67,500
27 Spider-Man House of M 3 $2.99 Marvel 67,200
28 Batman 643 $2.50 DC 66,400
29 Batman 644 $2.50 DC 65,100
30 Fantastic Four House of M 2 $2.99 Marvel 61,500
31 Superman 220 $2.50 DC 61,300
32 Dc Special The Return of Donna Troy 3 $2.99 DC 58,300
33 Iron Man House of M 2 $2.99 Marvel 57,800
34 Incredible Hulk 85 $2.99 Marvel 53,200
35 JSA 76 $2.50 DC 51,900
36 Captain America 8 $2.99 Marvel 51,800
37 Fantastic Four 530 $2.99 Marvel 51,800
38 Supreme Power 18 $2.99 Marvel 50,600
39 Flash 225 $2.50 DC 50,200
40 X-Men The End Heroes & Martyrs 6 $2.99 Marvel 49,600
41 Detective Comics 809 $2.99 DC 49,100
42 Marvel Knights Spider-Man 17 $2.99 Marvel 48,600
43 Action Comics 830 $2.50 DC 48,500
44 Iron Man 4 $2.99 Marvel 48,400
45 Detective Comics 810 $2.99 DC 48,300
46 Marvel 1602 New World 1 $3.50 Marvel 48,200
47 Serenity 2 $2.99 Dark Horse 47,100
48 Adventures of Superman 643 $2.50 DC 46,500
49 Daredevil 76 $2.99 Marvel 46,400
50 JSA Classified 2 $2.50 DC 46,000


Not bad, but compared to the age of "limited or no continuity", absolute orders of magnitude smaller..... of course, there are many other factors, but the fact remains that the market is almost completely relegated to continuity-heavy superhero books, period. A niche market at best.

[Kid Omega]

That's why my next question was about the decision/power of these creators.

At any rate, he brought back characters he loved but didn't get rid of the others. Why doesn't that increase the potential of comic-dom? Why is that seen as running off continuity-neutral fans?


They didn't just bring back characters, they created an increasingly involved, intertwined universe that gradually became confusingly inter-related.

As for running off continuity nuetral fans, see the second part of my previous post, visa vis selling X-Men to casual fans. I don't think continuity-heavy stories "ran off" anyone, but over the course of a few years, casual readers lose interest in trying to decipher a complicated shared universe, or long storylines rife with important (and unimportant) details.

[Tommy]

While I have no strong opinions one way or the other regarding continuity in superhero comics, I think I have to point out that the television analogy isn't the best one that can be made.

If you're looking strictly within one medium, the declining numbers don't apply as much--when television had huge ratings, there were typically only five or six stations available in most regions, and often, less. Now, television viewers have, on average, about forty to fifty cable stations with standard cable packages (not taking into account the additional channels provided by digital cable, or alternate delivery systems like satellite television). Today, cable penetration accounts for about 92% of households. As much as broadcasters will say that cable doesn't impact ratings of broadcast television (I've heard that quoted in the office before), it's simply not true.

I don't have numbers for comics publishing on hand, but if I'm remembering correctly, there were less comics publishers in the Golden and Silver ages than there are today (and I'm including the really small publishers today as part of those numbers--the guys that release one or two comics only), but they were on more equal footing in terms of titles released and sales. Today, there are more publishers, and it would seem like the smaller press would somewhat parallel the way cable draws viewers from broadcast, but unlike the increased amount of hours viewers are watching television or the increased amount of televisions per household, comics have shrunk in terms of delivery. Even manga, which has more support in bookstores than superhero comics or alternative comics, isn't distributed as widely as comics were from the '30s to the '70s.

I guess my pet peeve is that there is no one reason that the comics medium isn't as strong as it used to be--there are many factors that play into it. Can continuity make things seem inaccessible for casual readers/viewers? Sure. Can it also make everything seem better and interconnected and all that for others? Sure. I don't see why it has to be mutally exclusive. Before things got to the either/or thing, I think Rice made a stellar point--continuity is a tool that can help a good writer come up with something great, but it also can be a crutch that makes a less talented scribe hobble through to a finish line where no one is cheering--they've gathered, but that's just what they do at the end of a race.

It isn't JUST television that is on the decline. Book sales, Magazine sales, movie attendance have all declined.

Theater attendance has been declining since the 1600's.

Looking at comics and claiming that a sales drop between now and the 1930's is proof of anything is woefully ignorant of the simple fact that sales of any media are declining.

[Ed Cunard]

It isn't JUST television that is on the decline. Book sales, Magazine sales, movie attendance have all declined.

Theater attendance has been declining since the 1600's.

Looking at comics and claiming that a sales drop between now and the 1930's is proof of anything is woefully ignorant of the simple fact that sales of any media are declining.

Television, though, isn't declining. There are more people watching television--they just aren't watching the same things at the same time, or in the same way they used to watch. Movie attendance has declined, but the cinema's heyday was before home viewing was an affordable option.

And I wasn't saying it was proof of anything or, more specifically, any one thing. You can't lay the blame on continuity without taking into account competition for entertainment dollars, fewer points of sale, the shrinking percentage of people who read for leisure, the perception of value vs. cost, etc. The argument can be made, though, for anything being a factor, provided it's supported by something.

[Kid Omega]

Hey, I obviously disagree, but I think you're being too simplistic/monochromatic in your point. Now complaining about the length of Peter Parker's hair in his various appearances? Stupid. Wanting a character who was killed off to either be dead in future stories or to have why they're alive explained? Reasonable. Marriages, family, setting tweaks? If they're well-received or even not objected to, fine. If the iconography is the only important thing, then this shouldn't be a problem, and if not, then it's simply a development in a story that does things like that.
And it's not like you're being a beacon of understanding to my views.

This is where I get frustrated.

Nothing you say above I disagree with. I've made essentially some of the same points in several posts. It makes me wonder if you've even read whay I've been writing, or if your just looking for things to get defensive about.

The only thing I disagree with in the above is that just because Superman getting married (one example) is not objected to, it's fine. It takes away something key to his iconography, and turns the story of Superman (a simple one, that doesn't change, like Robin Hood or King Arthur) into a soap opera, and those detail added to a character with a basic, simple appeal might very well dilute his popularity.

I understand that you like books with continuity, and developing characters. So do I. Runaways and Ex Machina are two of my favorite book.... well, ever, and they both are dependent on story continuity.

I just think that if you have to have multiple CRISISes to explain things about Superman and Batman, something has gone wrong somewhere.

-a

[Gaz]

This is where I get frustrated.

Nothing you say above I disagree with. I've made essentially some of the same points in several posts. It makes me wonder if you've even read whay I've been writing, or if your just looking for things to get defensive about.

The only thing I disagree with in the above is that just because Superman getting married (one example) is not objected to, it's fine. It takes away something key to his iconography, and turns the story of Superman (a simple one, that doesn't change, like Robin Hood or King Arthur) into a soap opera, and those detail added to a character with a basic, simple appeal might very well dilute his popularity.

I understand that you like books with continuity, and developing characters. So do I. Runaways and Ex Machina are two of my favorite book.... well, ever, and they both are dependent on story continuity.

I just think that if you have to have multiple CRISISes to explain things about Superman and Batman, something has gone wrong somewhere.

-a

And Lois and Clark have been together for as long as I've been a fan. (And I thought it had been pretty well-received, but seeing as how a lot of people don't like Peter and Mary-Jane being a couple...) That's part of the icon to me, changing that is like taking Robin back to the crusades, or putting the sword back in the stone. Sure it's what the story began like, but it's not like it became over complicated without it.
I think it's the implication that the interconnection idea, and the adding of secondary/tertiary elements to "non-continuity" characters is bad, when I don't see it that way.

[Kid Omega]

I'd like to know what qualified them as obsessive.



Check out some copies of Alter Ego from the early sixties.


So, 1) NO other changes to comic-dom occurred around that time which might've also affected those numbers and 2) those numbers failed to drop at any poin during the forties, fifties, and sixties?


Well, there was a dip in the fifties, when horror books took a hit, but Superman pretty well held steady. I'm talking about major drops (hundreds of thousands). And of course, there were other elements. I'm not blaming the decline of Comic popularity on Roy Thomas. I'm just saying that continuity attached to certain characters may have contributed to their decline in sales.


It sounds like comic book elements (like continuity) aren't the problem. The problem seems to be the inability or unwillingness to note the difference between preference and obsession - and then to act accordingly (as comic creators or fans).

What? Okay. We've been saying that all along, in one way or another.

-a

[Ray R.]

They didn't just bring back characters, they created an increasingly involved, intertwined universe that gradually became confusingly inter-related.

As for running off continuity nuetral fans, see the second part of my previous post, visa vis selling X-Men to casual fans. I don't think continuity-heavy stories "ran off" anyone, but over the course of a few years, casual readers lose interest in trying to decipher a complicated shared universe, or long storylines rife with important (and unimportant) details.

I was just thinking about the X-men. Seriously, you CANNOT tell the players without a scorecard. I took five years off from all comic buys, then come back and I couldn't recognize half the characters in an average X-men comic book. Okay, now Emma Frost is good, Juggernaut is good, Nightcrawler has a daughter, Wolverine has a daughter, Madeline Pryor was a creation of Sinister, Rachel is from some other parallel universe where she was a telepath who hunted other mutants, Psylocke is now an Asian ninja with a power sword, there are like three mutant schools, a group including Sabretooth as another good guy going from parallel dimension to parallel dimension. Deadpool, Cable, more Weapon X projects, Colossus died at some point, no he didn't. Bishop, he's from the future, right, but which one? Oh, and Jean Grey, whose death in Uncanny X-men #137, was one of the formulative comic book experiences of my entire life, is no longer dead, or is she?

Yeah, continuity rules......but don't forget your copy of X-men Cliff Notes. You've been warned.

[Spackling Compound]

I was just thinking about the X-men. Seriously, you CANNOT tell the players without a scorecard. I took five years off from all comic buys, then come back and I couldn't recognize half the characters in an average X-men comic book. Okay, now Emma Frost is good, Juggernaut is good, Nightcrawler has a daughter, Wolverine has a daughter, Madeline Pryor was a creation of Sinister, Rachel is from some other parallel universe where she was a telepath who hunted other mutants, Psylocke is now an Asian ninja with a power sword, there are like three mutant schools, a group including Sabretooth as another good guy going from parallel dimension to parallel dimension. Deadpool, Cable, more Weapon X projects, Colossus died at some point, no he didn't. Bishop, he's from the future, right, but which one? Oh, and Jean Grey, whose death in Uncanny X-men #137, was one of the formulative comic book experiences of my entire life, is no longer dead, or is she?

Yeah, continuity rules......but don't forget your copy of X-men Cliff Notes. You've been warned.
Applause...
http://www.joeacevedo.com/images/customzone/customcon/audienceclapping.gif

[Gaz]

I was just thinking about the X-men. Seriously, you CANNOT tell the players without a scorecard. I took five years off from all comic buys, then come back and I couldn't recognize half the characters in an average X-men comic book. Okay, now Emma Frost is good, Juggernaut is good, Nightcrawler has a daughter, Wolverine has a daughter, Madeline Pryor was a creation of Sinister, Rachel is from some other parallel universe where she was a telepath who hunted other mutants, Psylocke is now an Asian ninja with a power sword, there are like three mutant schools, a group including Sabretooth as another good guy going from parallel dimension to parallel dimension. Deadpool, Cable, more Weapon X projects, Colossus died at some point, no he didn't. Bishop, he's from the future, right, but which one? Oh, and Jean Grey, whose death in Uncanny X-men #137, was one of the formulative comic book experiences of my entire life, is no longer dead, or is she?

Yeah, continuity rules......but don't forget your copy of X-men Cliff Notes. You've been warned.

If you think that you need all that to enjoy Deadpool or Exiles, then you're more "obsessed" than you'd have us believe.
Emma- bitchy antihero
Psylocke-psychic ninja chick
Juggernaut-bad guy trying to be good
Bishop- future-cop-guy
Deadpool - wacky mercenary with healing power.
Rachel-... OK, that one you got me on...
But most of them are easily explained in 6 words or less. Anything else is characterisation and backstory which is "use as needed".

(And yes, I do know that most X-men fans are far more specific and anal about it, but I'm a casual reader of those series, and I can follow on without much prompting)

[Kid Omega]

And Lois and Clark have been together for as long as I've been a fan. (And I thought it had been pretty well-received, but seeing as how a lot of people don't like Peter and Mary-Jane being a couple...) That's part of the icon to me, changing that is like taking Robin back to the crusades, or putting the sword back in the stone. Sure it's what the story began like, but it's not like it became over complicated without it.


Okay- here is the crux of the problem. YOU see Superman being married as important. Take a straw poll of a million people. How many do you think would say that Clark loves Lois but she loves Superman? I'm guessing that 85% or more would either not know or not care about the marriage. Your experience or preference as a fan does not reflect the broader appeal of theis character- that is not a dig, it's just the way it is. I love the days when Batman lived in a penthouse in the middle of Gotham with an elevator down to a garage.
But Batman has a batcave. That's a part of the character, and my love for the penthouse doesn't matter.


I think it's the implication that the interconnection idea, and the adding of secondary/tertiary elements to "non-continuity" characters is bad, when I don't see it that way.

Okay. I understand. I just think that no matter what happens in continuity now, with certain characters, does not matter in the long run. And in fact makes the books confusing to casual readers and harder to sell. But there are books for both of us, so we can disagree and it's no big deal.

-a

[Tommy]

I was just thinking about the X-men. Seriously, you CANNOT tell the players without a scorecard. I took five years off from all comic buys, then come back and I couldn't recognize half the characters in an average X-men comic book. Okay, now Emma Frost is good, Juggernaut is good, Nightcrawler has a daughter, Wolverine has a daughter, Madeline Pryor was a creation of Sinister, Rachel is from some other parallel universe where she was a telepath who hunted other mutants, Psylocke is now an Asian ninja with a power sword, there are like three mutant schools, a group including Sabretooth as another good guy going from parallel dimension to parallel dimension. Deadpool, Cable, more Weapon X projects, Colossus died at some point, no he didn't. Bishop, he's from the future, right, but which one? Oh, and Jean Grey, whose death in Uncanny X-men #137, was one of the formulative comic book experiences of my entire life, is no longer dead, or is she?

Yeah, continuity rules......but don't forget your copy of X-men Cliff Notes. You've been warned.

The funny thing about the X-books is that between the Mutant Massacur and the last five or so years you only about three important things happened. The resurection of Jean Grey, Emma becoming an X-man, and Psylocke becoming Asian are all I can think of right now. Everything else is more or less covered by Essentials or TPBs.

[Typo Lad]

Well, one's option is to do what I do...

Earlier someone cracked wise about how all the Brave and the Bold stories that didn't "fit" Earth 1 (like any of the Wildcat or Plastic Man appearances) happened on Earth H, for Haney.

I do something similar.

When reading, for example, Cary Bates on Flash, I don't think about how anyone else wrote The Flash - this is Earth Cary Bates Flash, so it's all good.

I apply the same logic to everything. Xorn isn't REALLY Magneto? Well, that's Earth Austin. I liked Earth Morrison better.

If I don't like a story element, I can just shrug it off.

It's fun.

[Kid Omega]

?f you think that you need all that to enjoy Deadpool or Exiles, then you're more "obsessed" than you'd have us believe.
Emma- bitchy antihero
Psylocke-psychic ninja chick
Juggernaut-bad guy trying to be good
Bishop- future-cop-guy
Deadpool - wacky mercenary with healing power.
Rachel-... OK, that one you got me on...
But most of them are easily explained in 6 words or less. Anything else is characterisation and backstory which is "use as needed".

(And yes, I do know that most X-men fans are far more specific and anal about it, but I'm a casual reader of those series, and I can follow on without much prompting)[/QUOTE]

You are an exception to the rule if you can make sense of the X books.

I'm with Ray on this one.

Seriously, try selling an X-book to someone who stopped reading ten, or even five years ago. Watch their eyes glaze over.

[Michael P]

Well, one's option is to do what I do...

Earlier someone cracked wise about how all the Brave and the Bold stories that didn't "fit" Earth 1 (like any of the Wildcat or Plastic Man appearances) happened on Earth H, for Haney.

I do something similar.

When reading, for example, Cary Bates on Flash, I don't think about how anyone else wrote The Flash - this is Earth Cary Bates Flash, so it's all good.

I apply the same logic to everything. Xorn isn't REALLY Magneto? Well, that's Earth Austin. I liked Earth Morrison better.

If I don't like a story element, I can just shrug it off.

It's fun.BUt... But... That means every story *doesn't* fit together in a seamless timeline! There's no way to chart it all and understand every facet of this imaginary person's existence in a linear fashion! OH NOES!!!!!!

[Kid Omega]

Well, one's option is to do what I do...

Earlier someone cracked wise about how all the Brave and the Bold stories that didn't "fit" Earth 1 (like any of the Wildcat or Plastic Man appearances) happened on Earth H, for Haney.

I do something similar.

When reading, for example, Cary Bates on Flash, I don't think about how anyone else wrote The Flash - this is Earth Cary Bates Flash, so it's all good.

I apply the same logic to everything. Xorn isn't REALLY Magneto? Well, that's Earth Austin. I liked Earth Morrison better.

If I don't like a story element, I can just shrug it off.

It's fun.


As much as I hate to say it...

YOU ARE COMPLETELY CORRECT.

-a
that stung

[Dizzy D]

1942
Captain Marvel 1,000,000 plus
Superman 1,000,000 plus
Walt Disney Comics and Stories 1,000,000
Batman 913,000
Captain America (peak sales, circa 1942) 900,000
All-Star Comics 440,800
Shadow (1941) 400,000
Ace Comics 279,163
King Comics 256,653
Blue Bolt Comics 200,490

In 1942, Walt Disney’s Comics and Stories is the first humor title to earn a million plus smile. Even minor titles regularly sell over 200,000 copies a month. With America’s entry in World War II, paper restrictions keep the size of the average comic book down, and restrict the total number of titles that can be published. But as a wartime escape, the comic book itself cannot be repressed.

Immediate post-war sales really boom. Walt Disney Comics and Stories becomes the best selling comic book in the industry circa 1945, a distinction it won’t relinquish until approximately 1960. Archie joins Batman as the latest characters to enter million-plus sales territory. And while comic book critics fretted over the popularity of Crimes Does Not Pay, its popularity never exceeded that of the most popular crime-fighters. Crime pays, it turns out. Just not as well. Even so-so titles now regularly sell half a million copies per issue.

1946
Walt Disney Comics and Stories circa 1,800,000
Superman 1,672,169
Batman 1,451,053
Archie Comics (1947) 1,135,324
Captain Marvel 873,820
Crime Does Not Pay 811,087
Whiz Comics 674,106
Topix 600,000
Suzie 586,780
True Comics 572,753

After 1947, sales for super-hero comic books drop precipitously, while the antics of Donald Duck, Bugs Bunny and the like take off. Far more than crime and horror comic books, romance titles such as Sweethearts, published by Fawcett, and Young Romance by Prize show remarkable strength. Educational and religious comic books like Classics Illustrated, Topix and Treasure Chest also produce surprisingly robust circulation figures. EC’s adaptations of the Bible have sold over a million copies by the mid-fifties.

1952
Walt Disney Comics and Stories 2,850,000
Sweethearts (Fawcett) circa 1,000,000
Young Romance circa 800,000
Classics Illustrated 670,000
Romantic Adventures (ACG) circa 650,000
Adventures into the Unknown (ACG-1953) circa 550,000
Tales From the Crypt (EC-1953) 400,000
Treasure Chest 329.903
Mad (EC-1953) 325,000
Two-Fisted Tales (EC-1953) 225,000

Forget EC. Dell Comics rule the decade. By 1954, while Dell’s total number of comic book titles is only 15% of those published, it controls nearly a third of the total market. Dell has more million plus sellers than any other company before or since, including Bugs Bunny, Woody Woodpecker, Looney Tunes, Donald Duck, Uncle Scrooge, Mickey Mouse, Porky Pig, Tom and Jerry and Little Lulu. A one-shot film adaptation like Peter Pan prompts over three million and a half purchases alone. Sales in more “suspect” genres such as crime, romance and horror, drop markedly with the establishment of the stifling Comic’s Code Authority in 1955. There is only one subversive survivor from the EC line of comic books. No longer, a color comic book, Mad is repackaged as Mad Magazine, a black-and-white magazine. It also expands its satiric scope to make fun of domestic life and a wide range of movies and television shows. Mad Magazine, as much as Playboy, is one of the most notable publishing successes of the fifties.

1960
Mad Magazine 1,048,550
Uncle Scrooge 1,040,543
Walt Disney Comics and Stories 1,004,901
Donald Duck 930,613
Superman 810,000
Dennis the Menace 800,000
Bugs Bunny 615,552
Mickey Mouse 568,803
Woody Woodpecker 537,773
Batman 502,000
Lone Ranger 408,711
Casper the Friendly Ghost 399,985
Blackhawk 316,000
Adventures Into the Unknown (ACG) 192,500

I don't have exact figures for Archie Comics in 1960, but it was probably just over a half a million per issue.

But there are already big drops in the amount of comics sold between 40s and the early 60s (Superman goes from 1,700,000 to 800,000, about half the sales he had before.) So there are other factors at work apart from the "continuity heavy writers of the late 60s and onwards".

[Gaz]

Okay- here is the crux of the problem. YOU see Superman being married as important. Take a straw poll of a million people. How many do you think would say that Clark loves Lois but she loves Superman? I'm guessing that 85% or more would either not know or not care about the marriage. Your experience or preference as a fan does not reflect the broader appeal of theis character- that is not a dig, it's just the way it is. I love the days when Batman lived in a penthouse in the middle of Gotham with an elevator down to a garage.
But Batman has a batcave. That's a part of the character, and my love for the penthouse doesn't matter.

Where did that idea actually come from anyway? I read the Showcase volume and there's no instance (unlike in Green Lantern, where it's all he talks about) where Clark's "poor me, I love her, but she loves SuperMe". In fact, i can't even be sure if he likes her, at all. (yes, they were aimed at kids, I know, but so was Snow White & the 7 Dwarves, and Lady and the Tramp, but I got that aspect in those.
This is an absolutely serious question from a less knowledgable fan, btw.


Okay. I understand. I just think that no matter what happens in continuity now, with certain characters, does not matter in the long run. And in fact makes the books confusing to casual readers and harder to sell. But there are books for both of us, so we can disagree and it's no big deal.

-a
This is the confusing part. How can it not matter, and really matter at the same time? If it doesn't change the basic set-up, how does that make it hard for people to grasp it when the details aren't important anyway? Why would him being editor of the Daily Star after getting fired make a difference if the gist is the same?
Also a real question.

[Tommy]

You are an exception to the rule if you can make sense of the X books.

I'm with Ray on this one.

Seriously, try selling an X-book to someone who stopped reading ten, or even five years ago. Watch their eyes glaze over.
Why don't you just hand them the Astonishing TPB, say "Emma joined the X-men awhile ago." and then encurage them to pick up Grant Morrison's run?

[Kid Omega]

But there are already big drops in the amount of comics sold between 40s and the early 60s (Superman goes from 1,700,000 to 800,000, about half the sales he had before.) So there are other factors at work apart from the "continuity heavy writers of the late 60s and onwards".

Yes, of course. No one said it was the only factor.

-a

[Ray R.]

If you think that you need all that to enjoy Deadpool or Exiles, then you're more "obsessed" than you'd have us believe.
Emma- bitchy antihero
Psylocke-psychic ninja chick
Juggernaut-bad guy trying to be good
Bishop- future-cop-guy
Deadpool - wacky mercenary with healing power.
Rachel-... OK, that one you got me on...
But most of them are easily explained in 6 words or less. Anything else is characterisation and backstory which is "use as needed".

(And yes, I do know that most X-men fans are far more specific and anal about it, but I'm a casual reader of those series, and I can follow on without much prompting)

I'm pretty much a casual reader as well, and far from obsessive (seriously, ask anybody, I primarily collect comic books from the 1930s and 1940s). I like Deadpool and Exiles, but they DO fit into the X-men continuity.

Gaz, I grew up a huge comic fan, but you really must admit that X-men continuity is pretty convoluted and complex right now. And picking up a X-book at random doesn't give me even your 6-word characterizations. When did Psylocke change from English girl with purple hair to Asian ninja and why? When did Wolverine have a kid? With whom? What's the deal with Nightcrawler's daughter? Is she parallel universe or what? Mystique is Rogue's mom, Sinister is Gambit's dad? When and why did Emma Frost, Juggernaut and Sabretooth become good guys?

If you're going to tell me that if I'm a first-time reader of the X-men or have only seen the movies or cartoon, that it's going to be a snap to pick up and read without any knowledge of the circuitous continuity? Seriously, I just have to call bullshit on that.

[Kid Omega]

Where did that idea actually come from anyway? I read the Showcase volume and there's no instance (unlike in Green Lantern, where it's all he talks about) where Clark's "poor me, I love her, but she loves SuperMe". In fact, i can't even be sure if he likes her, at all. (yes, they were aimed at kids, I know, but so was Snow White & the 7 Dwarves, and Lady and the Tramp, but I got that aspect in those.
This is an absolutely serious question from a less knowledgable fan, btw.


The dynamic is different than GL- Superman has more of a flirtatious, antagonistic thing with Lois. She's in love with Superman, and he seems to love her, but for whatever reason they have this unrequited thing going on. Not sure why it works, but it's what people remember. It's part of the Superman (ugh) MYTHOS.

Cei-U or Lone Ranger may have better answers...



This is the confusing part. How can it not matter, and really matter at the same time? If it doesn't change the basic set-up, how does that make it hard for people to grasp it when the details aren't important anyway? Why would him being editor of the Daily Star after getting fired make a difference if the gist is the same?
Also a real question.

I'm not sure I understand the question...

-a

[Typo Lad]

BUt... But... That means every story *doesn't* fit together in a seamless timeline! There's no way to chart it all and understand every facet of this imaginary person's existence in a linear fashion! OH NOES!!!!!!
Exactly.

I'm up the 1982 issues of The Flash. At this point, there are Giffen penciled back up stories with Doctor Fate. Pretty art, but if I were to try to "apply" past appearences, it would not work.

So instead, I enjoy (or don't) the individual story and don't worry about the "tapestry".

If more people did that from the writer end of things, that'd be best I think. Chuck Austin thinks Lois is a shrew? Okay, so don't do stories with Lois. Send her on location or something. Don't want to write Franklin and Valeria Richards? Don't.

[Spackling Compound]

If you're going to tell me that if I'm a first-time reader of the X-men or have only seen the movies or cartoon, that it's going to be a snap to pick up and read without any knowledge of the circuitous continuity? Seriously, I just have to call bullshit on that.
I gave up Xtitles in the mid-80's. In the late 90's, I began to pick them up again. Like you, I found the entire universe hard to understand. I then went to comic shops buying up back issues to fill me in on what happened to who and just what the hell was a Hound and an Askani and so on...and once a small fortune was spent, I still wasn't clear on the concept of time-space-generational jumping with clones and alternate personas not to mention Age Of Apocolypse characters...
and then Morrison came, cleaned it up a bit. Made all my research and money spent in vain. However, I like the Morrison stuff. Read it a while. Then just gave up when I heard rumbles he was leaving and the costumes and old characters were coming back.

[Kid Omega]

Why don't you just hand them the Astonishing TPB, say "Emma joined the X-men awhile ago." and then encurage them to pick up Grant Morrison's run?

Thassa what i do!

The Grant Morrison trades outsell the others by about ten to one. he used elements from continuity, but weaved them in pretty seamlessly. Those handful of books are incredible, and an easy sell.

The current crop of monthlies, not so much.

-a

[Spackling Compound]

I got some of the Kyle Baker Plastic Man comics from a year ago. Now, in the series, Plas is able to "duplicate himself", travel via phone line and is an agent of the CIA (FBI? Police?).
Great stuff. But is this the in-continuity Plas? Most likely NOT! And that's why he's fun.
But if he was, then there'd be some big 'splaining to do. And that would make my eyes hurt in my mind.

[Dizzy D]

Yes, of course. No one said it was the only factor.

-a

It has been strongly implied as being the main reason.

In the thirties, forties, fifties, and sixties, books that were stand alone stories with only bare bones continuity sold in numbers that maded Sinatra look like a hobo.

A small segment of fans who were obsessed with continuity became writers and editors in the late sixties. (Start of drop)

The became editors-in-chief by the seventies (drop continues)

The drop already started long before those late 60s. Pointing the finger to overcomplicated continuity can be done as one of the factors in the mix, but I remain unconvinced that it really was that important. Oversaturation of the market, other forms of entertainment became available, niche-forming by focusing mainly on superhero comics all seem to be just as important factors.

[Kid Omega]

I got some of the Kyle Baker Plastic Man comics from a year ago. Now, in the series, Plas is able to "duplicate himself", travel via phone line and is an agent of the CIA (FBI? Police?).
Great stuff. But is this the in-continuity Plas? Most likely NOT! And that's why he's fun.
But if he was, then there'd be some big 'splaining to do. And that would make my eyes hurt in my mind.

That Trade is a big seller and won a bunch of awards.... COINCIDENCE!?

(cue music)


-a

[Gaz]

Exactly.

I'm up the 1982 issues of The Flash. At this point, there are Giffen penciled back up stories with Doctor Fate. Pretty art, but if I were to try to "apply" past appearences, it would not work.

So instead, I enjoy (or don't) the individual story and don't worry about the "tapestry".

If more people did that from the writer end of things, that'd be best I think. Chuck Austin thinks Lois is a shrew? Okay, so don't do stories with Lois. Send her on location or something. Don't want to write Franklin and Valeria Richards? Don't.
How do recurring elements from previous runs/stories fit into this method?[/nosy nellie]

[Kid Omega]

[QUOTE=Dizzy D]It has been strongly implied as being the main reason.
/QUOTE]

I personally said that it COULD be ONE reason. And have repeatedly admitted that there are hundreds of other factors.

It keeps getting said because this is a thread about continuity, not the decline of comics. If this was a thread about the rise in TV popularity, that might be strongly implied as the main reason...

-a

[Ray R.]

But there are already big drops in the amount of comics sold between 40s and the early 60s (Superman goes from 1,700,000 to 800,000, about half the sales he had before.) So there are other factors at work apart from the "continuity heavy writers of the late 60s and onwards".

Well, let's put it this way, besides Rosa's very recent "Life and Times of Uncle Scrooge" series, when has there ever been a drop of continuity in a Donald Duck, Uncle Scrooge or Walt Disney's Comics & Stories. Or for that matter, 99% of the titles on that list. They're all anthology or one-shots.

Nearly 3 MILLION copies per month for ONE title in '52. When Showcase #4 rolls around, they're still selling nearly 3 million copies for 3 books. All canon, no continuity. Just great storytelling from Carl Barks, one one-shot at a time.

I think K.O. would be able to get that house in the Hamptons if he could sell ten or twenty comics with million issue print runs....continuity or no continuity.

[Gaz]

The dynamic is different than GL- Superman has more of a flirtatious, antagonistic thing with Lois. She's in love with Superman, and he seems to love her, but for whatever reason they have this unrequited thing going on. Not sure why it works, but it's what people remember. It's part of the Superman (ugh) MYTHOS.

Cei-U or Lone Ranger may have better answers...




I'm not sure I understand the question...

-a
Basically, you said that adding elements like the marriage has no bearing on what makes him popular, that stays the same. Then say that those additions put people off. How can they be put off when what they like is still there? :confused:

[Typo Lad]

They don't. Live in the "now". This storyline is the only storyline that exists while you read it.

Take The Flash Volume 1 # 312, which I'm in the midst of. On one page Barry Allen dodges Mick rory because even though Heatwave doesn't know Barry Allen, he's seen The Flash's face.

One thought baloon explains this. Then ON WITH THE STORY! Is the story more/less enjoyable for this? Meh. If they'd just passed each other, I'd simply say "okay, so that was an alternate Earth".

Unclench. It makes comics more fun.

[Dizzy D]

I'm pretty much a casual reader as well, and far from obsessive (seriously, ask anybody, I primarily collect comic books from the 1930s and 1940s). I like Deadpool and Exiles, but they DO fit into the X-men continuity.

Gaz, I grew up a huge comic fan, but you really must admit that X-men continuity is pretty convoluted and complex right now. And picking up a X-book at random doesn't give me even your 6-word characterizations. When did Psylocke change from English girl with purple hair to Asian ninja and why? When did Wolverine have a kid? With whom? What's the deal with Nightcrawler's daughter? Is she parallel universe or what? Mystique is Rogue's mom, Sinister is Gambit's dad? When and why did Emma Frost, Juggernaut and Sabretooth become good guys?

If you're going to tell me that if I'm a first-time reader of the X-men or have only seen the movies or cartoon, that it's going to be a snap to pick up and read without any knowledge of the circuitous continuity? Seriously, I just have to call bullshit on that.

I think a large part of your examples really wouldn't matter to a first-time reader though. I do agree that X-continuity is complicated, but a first-time reader really doesn't care when Emma Frost became a good guy as long as it is clear that she is one now. Same for Asian Psylocke, Wolverine and Nightcrawler's children etc. A first time reader picking up Exiles goes "Sliders with superheroes. Got it." (Gross oversimplification, I know, but I really think your problem in this case isn't so much the fact that there is a difficult continuity, but the fact that you know a previous difficult continuity rather intimately and wonder how that one connects to this.)

[Dizzy D]

Well, let's put it this way, besides Rosa's very recent "Life and Times of Uncle Scrooge" series, when has there ever been a drop of continuity in a Donald Duck, Uncle Scrooge or Walt Disney's Comics & Stories. Or for that matter, 99% of the titles on that list. They're all anthology or one-shots.

Nearly 3 MILLION copies per month for ONE title in '52. When Showcase #4 rolls around, they're still selling nearly 3 million copies for 3 books. All canon, no continuity. Just great storytelling from Carl Barks, one one-shot at a time.

I think K.O. would be able to get that house in the Hamptons if he could sell ten or twenty comics with million issue print runs....continuity or no continuity.

OK, I'm trying to see your point here as it relates to mine. Walt Disney did well in 1952. Do they still sell those 3 million copies for 3 books a month these days? Do any of your 99% sell as well these days? Did they all get those continuity heavy writers and editors to explain why they don't sell those numbers these days?

[Kid Omega]

Basically, you said that adding elements like the marriage has no bearing on what makes him popular, that stays the same. Then say that those additions put people off. How can they be put off when what they like is still there? :confused:

Again, I'm not sure what you're asking....

My point-

There is a SUPERMAN that everyone knows. He flies, he is from Krypton, he is a reporter and has a girlfriend named Lois.

That is the version that EVERYONE knows. That is the version that will be around long after they ret-con the marriage, re-marry him, divorce him, re-boot him, and marry him again.

The monthlies have all sorts of continuity that people get stuck in- he's married, his origin is all over the place, Krypton may or may not have been five different things.... it's such a mess that they need a whole CRISIS (again) to fix it.

So you take a character that everyone knows, put him in a continuity so that he develops, and eventually his stories are no longer about the Superman everyone knows. And sales suffer.

Example: A reader who picks up a book casually for the first time ever..."Oh, I like Superman- that movie is great. Oh wait- he's married? Superboy is another person? Lex is President?..... nevermind."

-a

[Tommy]

That Trade is a big seller and won a bunch of awards.... COINCIDENCE!?
Fables has won plenty of awards and yet there is probibly more continuity per page of that book than any other series out right now.

[Kid Omega]

OK, I'm trying to see your point here as it relates to mine. Walt Disney did well in 1952. Do they still sell those 3 million copies for 3 books a month these days? Do any of your 99% sell as well these days? Did they all get those continuity heavy writers and editors to explain why they don't sell those numbers these days?

Can you tell us a little about the release of the most recent Asterix book over in Europe?

(A comic book with little or no continuity....)

-a

[Gaz]

They don't. Live in the "now". This storyline is the only storyline that exists while you read it.

Take The Flash Volume 1 # 312, which I'm in the midst of. On one page Barry Allen dodges Mick rory because even though Heatwave doesn't know Barry Allen, he's seen The Flash's face.

One thought baloon explains this. Then ON WITH THE STORY! Is the story more/less enjoyable for this? Meh. If they'd just passed each other, I'd simply say "okay, so that was an alternate Earth".

Unclench. It makes comics more fun.
I'm thinking more the death/wedding/major plot by villain angle. How do you get round subplots/strands carried from one to the other? :confused:
(This is a pretty different way of reading to me, so trying to understand it, even if I probably won't be able to. I do try to ignore the Star Wars prequels when reading the EU books though... but they have continuity, I just ignore the thing that screws it up, because they came first and I like them better anyhow)

[Typo Lad]

Point of order Mister Omega, but it should be noted that if someone knows Superman from say, ABC's Lois and Clark, they'd be just as likely to be confused by his NOT being married.

In the end, the only answer is... some people are going to be displeased, no matter how you handle it, so just focus on writing the best dang story you can.

[Cei-U!]

The dynamic is different than GL- Superman has more of a flirtatious, antagonistic thing with Lois. She's in love with Superman, and he seems to love her, but for whatever reason they have this unrequited thing going on. Not sure why it works, but it's what people remember. It's part of the Superman (ugh) MYTHOS.

Cei-U or Lone Ranger may have better answers...

Here's how Jim Steranko described it in his History of Comics:

The Kent/Lois Lane/Superman romantic triangle ... prevailed as a story device, springboarding the characters into amusing situations like a running gag also serving as a focal point for the strip's only characterization. Lois was too school-girlishly romantic to see beyond Kent's blue suit, red tie ... and spectacles. She looked at him with adamant disdain, while we looked smugly at her. Superman's reaction was about equal to ours. Ince he doffed his street clothes, he was unapproachable; what woman was good enough? Somewhere there was a lesson to be learned.

Put another way, Lois is the princess who will never win her heart's desire as long as she refuses to kiss the talking frog. It was a classic fairy tale set-up in 20th Century drag (that also reflected the reality of adolescents like Siegel and Shuster, who regularly experienced girls scorning them while pursuing some brawny jock or rich preppy). As such, it contributed far more to the mythic resonance of the concept than the tepid domestic drama currently at work in the Superman titles ever will.

Cei-U!
I summon the reference library!

[Dizzy D]

Can you tell us a little about the release of the most recent Asterix book over in Europe?

(A comic book with little or no continuity....)

-a

Does well, sells well. Has always sold well. Quality rather meh though. But then again we also have Metabarons which sells rather well and has heavy continuity. Donjon is an epic story with sidestories and does well. There are books with continuity here as well and in manga probably even worse (pick up volume 5 of ... say Gundam and try to understand the story if you didn't start with volume 1 especially with those stories being a single long contuinging story.)

[Cei-U!]

Good God, I can't type fast enough to keep up with this thread. I've created a monster!

Cei-U!
I summon the Frankenstein riff!

[Kid Omega]

Fables has won plenty of awards and yet there is probibly more continuity per page of that book than any other series out right now.

Can you please go back to page one, and start counting the times I said that continuity works incredibly well in some books?

I don't mean to be catty, but I find I'm repeating myself... alot.

-a

[Gaz]

Can you please go back to page one, and start counting the times I said that continuity works incredibly well in some books?

I don't mean to be catty, but I find I'm repeating myself... alot.

-a
I think it's more that we disagree on the where it works, rather than the if.

[Dizzy D]

Can you please go back to page one, and start counting the times I said that continuity works incredibly well in some books?

I don't mean to be catty, but I find I'm repeating myself... alot.

-a

I think at the moment most of the conversation is already splitting hairs.
From what I see everybody agrees
Too much continuity=bad
Continuity=can be good if used well.

The only thing that remains is the small argument how much continuity factors in in the current comic market being so small compared to the 40s and 50s.

[Typo Lad]

Fables has won plenty of awards and yet there is probibly more continuity per page of that book than any other series out right now.

Well, theres a bit of a difference between say, Fables and Batman, no?

1) The characters in Fables appear only Fables. Batman is in at least five books a month.

2) Fables is written by one man. Batman is written by committee.

3) Fables gives the promise of an ending. Batman, by his nature, can never have a final resolution.

4) Fables has less than a decade of backstory to deal with. Batman has well over six.

5) Fables can kill off characters or have them do what they wish without worrying about how it will affect the sales of Bigby Wolf Undies.

[Gaz]

Point of order Mister Omega, but it should be noted that if someone knows Superman from say, ABC's Lois and Clark, they'd be just as likely to be confused by his NOT being married.

In the end, the only answer is... some people are going to be displeased, no matter how you handle it, so just focus on writing the best dang story you can.
B-I-N-G-O.
They were together in every incarnation that formed my understanding of the character, so it's more of a change to have them not be.
(I didn't see the movie until much later)

[Ray R.]

I think a large part of your examples really wouldn't matter to a first-time reader though. I do agree that X-continuity is complicated, but a first-time reader really doesn't care when Emma Frost became a good guy as long as it is clear that she is one now. Same for Asian Psylocke, Wolverine and Nightcrawler's children etc. A first time reader picking up Exiles goes "Sliders with superheroes. Got it." (Gross oversimplification, I know, but I really think your problem in this case isn't so much the fact that there is a difficult continuity, but the fact that you know a previous difficult continuity rather intimately and wonder how that one connects to this.)

That's a pretty fair point. I have my prior history with the X-men which included some exposure to the old Silver Age stuff, but mostly was driven by Wein/Cockrum and Claremont/Byrne through the Paul Smith stuff. And that's the X-men that shows up on the big screen.

Bu that's also leads to my point. Someone whose only exposure to the X-men is the movies or cartoons, basically has a frame of reference limited to the early "new X-men" and the current continuity has little or no relation to that whatsoever. That's where I think you can't walk in "cold." It's just too disjointed and confusing.

[Typo Lad]

I think it's more that we disagree on the where it works, rather than the if.


Which is fine. That boils down to taste.

I can enjoy Brad Meltzer's Green Arrow Arc without wondering why the Arrowcar was still in one piece, despite Ollie saying that he lost it with his fortune when he crashes the Arrowplane in a Flash backup story. I can enjoy a story about Metamorpho without wondering where his kid is. I can even read a story about Mary Marvel and innapropriate touching without having a conniption fit because it doesn't "fit" (although note that I hesitate to use the word "enjoy" this time).

Others can't.

Which is fine.

I like chocolate, you like vanilla. Now let's stop arguing about the benifits of a waffle cone vs a sugar cone.

[Typo Lad]

B-I-N-G-O.
They were together in every incarnation that formed my understanding of the character, so it's more of a change to have them not be.
(I didn't see the movie until much later)

But here comes my point of order to you, Monsiour!

You're just one fan. You can (and should) enjoy the Kent/Lane wedding. That's cool. But when someone says they do not enjoy it, or even that it is antithetical to the premis, you have to realize that that too, is just one fan's opinion.

All that matters is Earth Gaz.

[Joe Rice]

Let me try this again:

No one here, not Alex, not me, not Ray, not ANYONE thinks that ALL CONTINUITY SHOULD BE HEREBY FOREVER ABOLISHED.

We all agree that it works sometimes. Some writers do it well, some concepts are well-suited for it.

I think what we that are less enamored of mandatory continuity want is an option. If a writer wants to play in the sandbox he can. If not, he can tell his Superman story without worrying about the soap opera elements other writers have added on in their own attempt at making the book interesting.

We don't look down on people who like continuity. We like continuity SOMETIMES. But we don't like it to be forced on every single writer every single story.

It's about choice. Choice is freedom and creative freedom leads to better stories under better writers.

[Kid Omega]

Does well, sells well. Has always sold well. Quality rather meh though. But then again we also have Metabarons which sells rather well and has heavy continuity. Donjon is an epic story with sidestories and does well. There are books with continuity here as well and in manga probably even worse (pick up volume 5 of ... say Gundam and try to understand the story if you didn't start with volume 1 especially with those stories being a single long contuinging story.)

Could you go into a little more detail about how well the new Asterix book is doing? The fanfare around it's release, etc...


-a

[Fabian]

Now let's stop arguing about the benifits of a waffle cone vs a sugar cone.
Well do you remember what you liked when you first had a cross-over with an ice cream shop and want to stay in character with yourself or not?


And I like continuity as a tool that cane be beneficial or misused. Like a buzzsaw

[Dizzy D]

That's a pretty fair point. I have my prior history with the X-men which included some exposure to the old Silver Age stuff, but mostly was driven by Wein/Cockrum and Claremont/Byrne through the Paul Smith stuff. And that's the X-men that shows up on the big screen.

Bu that's also leads to my point. Someone whose only exposure to the X-men is the movies or cartoons, basically has a frame of reference limited to the early "new X-men" and the current continuity has little or no relation to that whatsoever. That's where I think you can't walk in "cold." It's just too disjointed and confusing.

And I agreed that it would be hard to for anybody to step in cold in the X-comics (it can be done as I know from various X-cres posters who until recently didn't read X-comics). It also depends on the writer in question of course: Claremont loves using the old stories and characters he created, while Milligan pretty much goes with new stuff so far.

Then again there are X-titles that are accessible to new readers (Academy X (new characters that go to a school for mutants. Simple enough) was IMHO and Exiles was as well (new world, new storyline start again))

Then again the accessible titles really aren't the ones that are selling the best right now, which was a point somewhere, but I can't remember how. OK, just ignore it.

Off-topic: I should note that I refused to buy the multicrossovers House of M and Decimation precisely because they are too obsessed with "fixing things" instead of just telling a good story IMHO. Should I hope that that gives a bit more insight where I am coming from. I really don't think that continuity will keep readers from a story as much as a bad story will keep readers away.

[Typo Lad]

I'm thinking more the death/wedding/major plot by villain angle. How do you get round subplots/strands carried from one to the other? :confused:

Why do I need to "get around" it?

Example - one of my first comics, I forget the issue, was a Spider-Man where Mary Jane says "yes". The bad guy was a Spider-Slayer and he was a cloth version of the black outfit, but at the end of the day, it was a story about Spider-Man fighting a giant robot and then this redheaded girl saying that she loved him.

Did I need to know that the redhead had been a cast member for decades? Or that she had an aunt who wast best friends with Peter? Or that the Spider-Slayers were built by a man who's father first appeared in the same issue that introduced Norman Osborn? Or that Peter's black outfit was a varation of one that he got on The Beyonder's World in a massive crossover called Secret Wars, and then it tried to eat his brain?

Of course not.

Years later, learning all those tidbits was fun, but none of them added or detracted to the original reading.

(This is a pretty different way of reading to me, so trying to understand it, even if I probably won't be able to. I do try to ignore the Star Wars prequels when reading the EU books though... but they have continuity, I just ignore the thing that screws it up, because they came first and I like them better anyhow)

Well, there you go.

I thought Vonda MacEntire's Crystal Star was perhaps one of the worst media fiction novels ever. Yet when later books refered to events that happened in it, I just acted like they happened "off camera" rather than saying "Oh but that novel BLEW!"

Gene Roddenberry allegedly got up after screening Star Trek V, turned to everyone and said "That never happened". It's that easy.

[Kid Omega]

B-I-N-G-O.
They were together in every incarnation that formed my understanding of the character, so it's more of a change to have them not be.
(I didn't see the movie until much later)

Again, that is YOU. The majority of people in the world that know Superman know Christopher Reeve, not Dean cain.

Also, that show got cancelled. Hard.

(Maybe Tom Welling, and that show has a continuity, but it's not really Superman in quotes... it's another animal...)

-a

[Gaz]

Which is fine. That boils down to taste.

I can enjoy Brad Meltzer's Green Arrow Arc without wondering why the Arrowcar was still in one piece, despite Ollie saying that he lost it with his fortune when he crashes the Arrowplane in a Flash backup story. I can enjoy a story about Metamorpho without wondering where his kid is. I can even read a story about Mary Marvel and innapropriate touching without having a conniption fit because it doesn't "fit" (although note that I hesitate to use the word "enjoy" this time).

Others can't.

Which is fine.

I like chocolate, you like vanilla. Now let's stop arguing about the benifits of a waffle cone vs a sugar cone.

OK, but can we keep our ice creams in seperate tubs? :p

[Typo Lad]

Well do you remember what you liked when you first had a cross-over with an ice cream shop and want to stay in character with yourself or not?

Well, there was the time I went to Earth-Coldstone. It was like Bizarro Ben and Jerries, but in the end we all learned a valuable lesson about freidnship.

And I like continuity as a tool that cane be beneficial or misused. Like a buzzsaw

Note to self: Stay away from Fabian during pruning season.

[Typo Lad]

OK, but can we keep our ice creams in seperate tubs? :p

You're one of those people who buys neopolitan and only eats one flavour, aren't you?

[Ray R.]

OK, I'm trying to see your point here as it relates to mine. Walt Disney did well in 1952. Do they still sell those 3 million copies for 3 books a month these days? Do any of your 99% sell as well these days? Did they all get those continuity heavy writers and editors to explain why they don't sell those numbers these days?

My point being is that you could pick up ANY book off the rack, and not have to know jack-shit about any other book in the title that preceded it or followed it. Again, any book. You could be a casual fan or a serious fan, or just a devourer of escapist entertainment. We've covered in other threads the wealth of genres as well that existed as far up as the seventies, which I think promoted cross-buying or graduated-buying (i.e., going from Uncle Scrooge to Spiderman, or Casper to Batman, or Archie to Mad). I went from Richie Rich, Uncle Scrooge, Spidey and the Electric Company, and Super-Goof to Spiderman, the Justice League of America and the Uncanny X-men.

By going to continuity-based story-telling, if you miss issues, or storylines, or miniseries, you're screwed. And no offense to all present, but part of the draw of the continuity-based story-telling is the implicit conceit present in the fact that the knowledge of all the intricate details somehow makes you a better fan (i.e., we're all in on the inside story). It's why it's really hard to get back in, once you get out of comics. You can't share in the conceit unless, like myself or Spackling, you search out the whole backstory, inasmuch as it helps explain the present continuity.

Again, like Kid Omega, I'm not against continuity per se, but in lieu of my point above I think it makes an insular hobby even more insular, and constricts artistic expression and good story-telling because certain details and previous events beyond basic character archetypes and canon HAVE to be taken under serious consideration as part of the story-building process. That's limiting, and for many casual fans both confusing and intimidating.

[Dizzy D]

Could you go into a little more detail about how well the new Asterix book is doing? The fanfare around it's release, etc...


-a

OK, you are probably trying to take the piss here somehow, but I'm too stupid to understand so I'll answer seriously.

THe major newspapers payed attention to it with small articles (mostly reviews that noted the strong decline in quality), in Belgium it was more of a fanfare with full-page articles and even special stunts (I'm trying so hard to remember now what they did.. but I come up blank, sorry).

[Typo Lad]

Again, that is YOU. The majority of people in the world that know Superman know Christopher Reeve, not Dean cain.

Except for the millions of people who watched it, read the articles in TV Guide, downloaded the Terri Hatcher Screensavers....

Heck, when she was cast for DH, rather than being references as the Radio Shack ad girl or a Love Boat regular, articles kept calling her "Terri Hatcher, of Lois and Clark fame..."

Also, that show got cancelled. Hard.

After four years, the first two of which had very good ratings.

(Maybe Tom Welling, and that show has a continuity, but it's not really Superman in quotes... it's another animal...)-a

Only, to the people who watch it, it is.

Subjective reality, man.

[Kid Omega]

And I agreed that it would be hard to for anybody to step in cold in the X-comics (it can be done as I know from various X-cres posters who until recently didn't read X-comics). It also depends on the writer in question of course: Claremont loves using the old stories and characters he created, while Milligan pretty much goes with new stuff so far.

Then again there are X-titles that are accessible to new readers (Academy X (new characters that go to a school for mutants. Simple enough) was IMHO and Exiles was as well (new world, new storyline start again))

Then again the accessible titles really aren't the ones that are selling the best right now, which was a point somewhere, but I can't remember how. OK, just ignore it.

Off-topic: I should note that I refused to buy the multicrossovers House of M and Decimation precisely because they are too obsessed with "fixing things" instead of just telling a good story IMHO. Should I hope that that gives a bit more insight where I am coming from. I really don't think that continuity will keep readers from a story as much as a bad story will keep readers away.

I pretty much agree with you.

I probably made the point that the "the accessible titles really are the ones that are selling the best right now", and that is pretty wuch the case in my experience. All Star Batman sells HUGE, and I expect All Star Superman to blow it up as well. Other books do well, but fro the most part, books about Iconic charactres that are mired in continuity do not do well. At all.

The difference in sales between ASBAR and any other given Batman monthly is tremendous. And it's more than big names. People who haven't read comics in ages are asking for issue three like crazy....

-a

[Joe Rice]

I may or may not be in continuity at the Rocketship soiree tonight. My iconic base is "hairy Kentuckian who drinks a lot." Now, sometimes I work well in continuity and the soap opera elements that have gathered around me work. Oh, no, it's that guy I can't stand! Hooray, I got engaged! But other times, it's best to strip away all that gathered continuity and just tell a Joe Rice story.

[Dizzy D]

My point being is that you could pick up ANY book off the rack, and not have to know jack-shit about any other book in the title that preceded it or followed it. Again, any book. You could be a casual fan or a serious fan, or just a devourer of escapist entertainment. We've covered in other threads the wealth of genres as well that existed as far up as the seventies, which I think promoted cross-buying or graduated-buying (i.e., going from Uncle Scrooge to Spiderman, or Casper to Batman, or Archie to Mad). I went from Richie Rich, Uncle Scrooge, Spidey and the Electric Company, and Super-Goof to Spiderman, the Justice League of America and the Uncanny X-men.

By going to continuity-based story-telling, if you miss issues, or storylines, or miniseries, you're screwed. And no offense to all present, but part of the draw of the continuity-based story-telling is the implicit conceit present in the fact that the knowledge of all the intricate details somehow makes you a better fan (i.e., we're all in on the inside story). It's why it's really hard to get back in, once you get out of comics. You can't share in the conceit unless, like myself or Spackling, you search out the whole backstory, inasmuch as it helps explain the present continuity.

True and I agree completely. My point was more that not all those titles went to continuity-based story-telling and I doubted the effect it had on the whole industry. In my opinion for every writer that decides to take a turn left, another writer decides to take a turn right.

Again, like Kid Omega, I'm not against continuity per se, but in lieu of my point above I think it makes an insular hobby even more insular, and constricts artistic expression and good story-telling because certain details and previous events beyond basic character archetypes and canon HAVE to be taken under serious consideration as part of the story-building process. That's limiting, and for many casual fans both confusing and intimidating.

And you'll find that none of us disagree. We also don't want to force continuity on each and every writer. I fully admit that I enjoy continuity-rich universes (though keep in mind for me it's more the exception than the rule. Asterix and Lucky Luke both only have one spin-off or two and none of them important. Suske&Wiske keeps his continuity in mind, but it doesn't require you to know all 200+ issues.) but I enjoy a good story far more.

[i_mmmchocolate]

[off topic]This is the thread that never ends, yes it goes on and on my friends.[/off topic]

[Gaz]

You're one of those people who buys neopolitan and only eats one flavour, aren't you?
Nope, I very rarely want more than one flavour, it futzes up my taste buds and makes it yucky.

[Ed Cunard]

But other times, it's best to strip away all that gathered continuity and just tell a Joe Rice story.

Funny, all the Joe Rice stories I write involve stripping...

SHIT. So much for keeping that NaNoWriMo thing secret.

[Kid Omega]

OK, you are probably trying to take the piss here somehow, but I'm too stupid to understand so I'll answer seriously.

THe major newspapers payed attention to it with small articles (mostly reviews that noted the strong decline in quality), in Belgium it was more of a fanfare with full-page articles and even special stunts (I'm trying so hard to remember now what they did.. but I come up blank, sorry).

I'm honestly not trying to be obnoxious- I thought you might have more info about this. As far as I've seen, it was a huge phenomenon, and that will be the best-selling comic album this year. By far.

I just wonder (rhetorically) why Superman doesn't have the same impact...

-a

[Typo Lad]

KNow what's a good example of Contiunity Heavy writing?

This week's Teen Titans.

It relys on the reader knowing:

1) Who The Red Hood is.
2) Who Jason Todd was.
3) That Jason Todd was a Titan (for two whole missions).
4) Who Donna Troy is.
5) Who Brother Blood was/is.
6) Who Lilith is.
7) What's going on in Hawkman.
8) What's going on in Doom Patrol, of all places.
9) What happened in "A Lonely Place of Dying", a comic that came out over a decade ago!
10) What happened in Identity Crisis.


And that's just the top ten.

Now, I happen to think that FOR "in continuity" writing, it did very well. It "reveals" what's going on in other issues without being too "go buy this book" and recounts "A Lonely Place for Dying" quite nicely. However, I question if a first-time reader would find this an appealing book.

[Joe Rice]

Funny, all the Joe Rice stories I write involve stripping...

SHIT. So much for keeping that NaNoWriMo thing secret.

That is definitely in keeping with the iconic concept of Joe Rice.

[Dizzy D]

I pretty much agree with you.

I probably made the point that the "the accessible titles really are the ones that are selling the best right now", and that is pretty wuch the case in my experience. All Star Batman sells HUGE, and I expect All Star Superman to blow it up as well. Other books do well, but fro the most part, books about Iconic charactres that are mired in continuity do not do well. At all.

The difference in sales between ASBAR and any other given Batman monthly is tremendous. And it's more than big names. People who haven't read comics in ages are asking for issue three like crazy....

-a

I think your comicshop may be the exception though, because the Infinite Crises and House of M's seem to be high on the sales list. And I would say that 1) A-list characters (c'mon Batman and Superman it doesn't get bigger than those two) and 2) A-list creators on both titles play a very large part in their success and I personally think that matters more than whether they are in continuity or not.

[Typo Lad]

Nope, I very rarely want more than one flavour, it futzes up my taste buds and makes it yucky.

This.

Explains.

Everything.

Fortunatly, with therapy you can soon be a functioning member of society again.

[Dizzy D]

I'm honestly not trying to be obnoxious- I thought you might have more info about this. As far as I've seen, it was a huge phenomenon, and that will be the best-selling comic album this year. By far.

And sadly not because of quality. Completionists (is that a word) are not solely an American phenomenon.

I just wonder (rhetorically) why Superman doesn't have the same impact...

-a

Different culture is my only guess. If you ever come to Europe, I'll pay you tickets for the Comic Museum in Groningen or Brussel. Especially the Belgian attitude towards comics is so different from the American. I've seen the Comics Code blamed often, but I doubt its the reason. If we could pinpoint what the reason was, the comic world would be a better one though.

[Gaz]

This.

Explains.

Everything.

Fortunatly, with therapy you can soon be a functioning member of society again.
BTW, that wasn't an analogy.
(The tub thing was, kind of "can we have seperate comics for each approach?")

[Typo Lad]

I'm suddenly reminded of a conversation with my brother a few months ago.

Him: "Batman/Superman sux!"

"It does, why?"

"It doesn't fit into established continuity!"

"Is it internally consistant?"

"What? THat's not the point!"

"Sure it is."

"But this is like, the Fourth Supergirl since the Crisis, counting Powergirl, why doesn't anyone comment?"

"Would that further the story?"

"But how did Hawkman get the Claw of Hourus? Why are all these heroes listening to Luthor? Why does everyone think Captain Atom is dead when they've all seen him 'jump' before? Why..."

"Shhhhh. It's just a story. Enjoy it for what it is."

"But it doesn't work! It falls apart under scrutiny!"

"That's because you're not scrutinizing it. You're vivisecting it. Try the same thing with an old issue of World's Finest or Brave and the Bold and the same thing will happen."

"...I hate you."

"I know."

[Typo Lad]

BTW, that wasn't an analogy.

I know. Neither was my response.

MIX THINGS UP! Don't hermatically seal your flavours! LET THE PEES TOUCH THE MASHED POTATOES!

Only then will you truely live.

(The tub thing was, kind of "can we have seperate comics for each approach?")

But... but... we do. The problem is when people who don't like approach X buy a book that uses approach X even though they know they don't like said approach.

Like, I don't like the way Judd Winnick writes, well, anyone - so i don't buy The Outsiders. I like Robin, even though I didn't like the writer on the other Batman title he did.

[Spackling Compound]

.

MIX THINGS UP! Don't hermatically seal your flavours! LET THE PEES TOUCH THE MASHED POTATOES!


Hrmm..never had urine on my potatoes. Better than stuffing?

[Ed Cunard]

Hrmm..never had urine on my potatoes. Better than stuffing?

Well, if you're on a low-carb diet.

[Ray R.]

Hrmm..never had urine on my potatoes. Better than stuffing?

"StoveTop Urine? I'm staying!"

[Typo Lad]

sobs quietly

[Gaz]

sobs quietly
*smiles smugly*


*then stares at feet and shuffles uncomfortably*




*skulks away*

[west3man]

They didn't just bring back characters, they created an increasingly involved, intertwined universe that gradually became confusingly inter-related.

As for running off continuity nuetral fans, see the second part of my previous post, visa vis selling X-Men to casual fans. I don't think continuity-heavy stories "ran off" anyone, but over the course of a few years, casual readers lose interest in trying to decipher a complicated shared universe, or long storylines rife with important (and unimportant) details.
I was that casual fan. I walked into the world of X when there were multiple X-titles, references to the future, references to the past, and a whole lot of people with a whole lot of history I didn't know.

Like so many movies, books, and tv shows, that added to the richness of the tale, for me. There's a lot of continuity, but I think we disagree about how much of it one needs to know to enjoy the book.


Thanks for the conversation (everyone), but I'm gonna step away. Too many pages of follow-ups to read, right now. Maybe I'll see you after I get a recharge. :)

[Kid Omega]

I was that casual fan. I walked into the world of X when there were multiple X-titles, references to the future, references to the past, and a whole lot of people with a whole lot of history I didn't know.

Like so many movies, books, and tv shows, that added to the richness of the tale, for me. There's a lot of continuity, but I think we disagree about how much of it one needs to know to enjoy the book.



Okay- it worked for YOU.

I can tell you from years of experience, it will turn most people off.

I have been told that I would like BUFFY, and I've seen a few episodes that I enjoyed. But theought of having to sift through all those seasons of interwoven continuity and spin-offs is too much for me. I lost interest.

And that one's an easy fix! I only have to watch the DVDs in order! I just don't wanna.


These things happen.
-a

[Slam_Bradley]

It has been strongly implied as being the main reason.



The drop already started long before those late 60s. Pointing the finger to overcomplicated continuity can be done as one of the factors in the mix, but I remain unconvinced that it really was that important. Oversaturation of the market, other forms of entertainment became available, niche-forming by focusing mainly on superhero comics all seem to be just as important factors.


You really can't look at the drop for Superman in isolation and say that comic sales numbers were dropping all along. In the 40's Super-heroes ruled. By the end of the war, the day of the super-hero had ended and the numbers OF THOSE BOOKS began to drop. However, the numbers of total comics sold increased until around 1955. The difference was that it was other genres that were selling. A number of crime books were selling in the 1 to 1.5 million range.

Around 1955 the numbers of comics sold did begin to drop. There were a number of reasons. Two definitely stand out. Televisions became wide-spread, and that had an effect, though I think it is probably somewhat overblown. The major effect was the initiation of the comics code which pushed more adult oriented comics off the stands and the nearly simultaneous rise of the publication of the paperback original.

While we constantly hear the canard that comics were aimed at 10 year olds, that wasn't necessarily the case. It was true prior to World War II and it was definitely the case after 1955, but it wasn't necessarily the case between 1945 and 1955. Tons of GI's read comics while they were fighting the war. This also corresponded with a general down-turn in publication of pulp magazines which had been aimed at a more adult audience. When the GI's came back, they kept buying comics, just not super-heroes. Some publishers recognized this and a lot of comics were aimed at that demographic. EC, Lev Gleason and others aimed directly at the people who previously would have been buying pulp magazines. However, with the advent of the Code and the almost simultaneous availability of cheap, lurid paperback originals that market went away and you were left with the 8-12 year old crowd.

So, a decrease in the sales of Superman is meaningless. The true bell-mark was the overall sales.

[Joe Rice]

It's interesting that this might be a question of priorities.

As a reader, my priority is artistic freedom and quality.

As a retailer, Alex's priority is selling comics to the widest audience possible.

As a comic fan, some folks' priorities are to continue the storied tapestry that drew them to comics.

[Gaz]

It's interesting that this might be a question of priorities.

As a reader, my priority is artistic freedom and quality.

As a retailer, Alex's priority is selling comics to the widest audience possible.

As a comic fan, some folks' priorities are to continue the storied tapestry that drew them to comics.
The strange thing is that none of these things seem to inherently contain anything that prevents the other two from being possible.

(I do hope that you don't think that I don't want to read quality stories, that I'd put up with crap just because it "counts"...)

[Joe Rice]

The strange thing is that none of these things seem to inherently contain anything that prevents the other two from being possible.

(I do hope that you don't think that I don't want to read quality stories, that I'd put up with crap just because it "counts"...)

I don't think that, so don't be defensive. None of us has EVER EVER EVER suggested there's not a place for continuity. I think the reason Alex got frustrated is that he said that again and again, and he always got back, "But I like continuity, I don't want it to leave!"

No one wants it to leave. We want it there for the folks that want it and not there for the folks that do.

[Tommy]

Well clearly we live in a world where Batman: The Dark Knight Returns (No continuity) and The Dark Pheonix Saga (tons of continuity) can both be considered great examples of the genera.

But perhaps the most wonderful thing about silver age Marvel was that the charectors hopped around in different books. Villians could switch heros. Everything seemed inter connected.

[Joe Rice]

Well clearly we live in a world where Batman: The Dark Knight Returns (No continuity) and The Dark Pheonix Saga (tons of continuity) can both be considered great examples of the genera.

But perhaps the most wonderful thing about silver age Marvel was that the charectors hopped around in different books. Villians could switch heros. Everything seemed inter connected.

Ah, so you agree, and there can be a good use of continuity. Great.

[Gaz]

I don't think that, so don't be defensive. None of us has EVER EVER EVER suggested there's not a place for continuity. I think the reason Alex got frustrated is that he said that again and again, and he always got back, "But I like continuity, I don't want it to leave!"

No one wants it to leave. We want it there for the folks that want it and not there for the folks that do.
And we always got back "There's a place for it, but that place you think is the place for it, isn't"

[Joe Rice]

And we always got back "There's a place for it, but that place you think is the place for it, isn't"

No, we didn't.

Maybe that's how you read it. That's not what I've ever said.

There's a place for continuity. There are people that enjoy it all over.

We just want an equal opporunity for there to ALSO be a place where you don't have to have continuity.

[Tommy]

We just want an equal opporunity for there to ALSO be a place where you don't have to have continuity.
If there was no place for stuff out of continuity then we would never have had Batman The Dark Knight Returns, She-Hulk's 2nd series, The Ultimate and All Star lines, The 2099 titles, What ifs, Elseworlds, The End books...

There are plenty of outlits at both companys that are out of continuity.

For example I didn't mind that just how the hell Mystique makes clothes changed from psyonicly altering fabrics to just generating them out of her skin. Neither makes much sense so who cares.

However I do mind that the Radioactive Man is a Russian villian in Black Panther and a Chinese hero in Thunderbolts. Had he just cluttered up BP I would not have minded but when BP crosses over into X-men which I read I do. Or when the X-men are fighting an insane Danger Room in Astonishing and being attacked by Mojo in the Danger Room in Uncanny. And that the Danger Room was giving off telepathic signals that only Xavier picked up even though Jean Grey, Rachel Grey, Emma Frost, and the Stepford Cuckoos were all living in the mansion. And that it is some how Xavier's fault that the Danger room was ignored even though the Danger room was distroyed by Magneto and allmost immdiatly after that Xaiver was off in Genosha.

[Gaz]

No, we didn't.

Maybe that's how you read it. That's not what I've ever said.

There's a place for continuity. There are people that enjoy it all over.

We just want an equal opporunity for there to ALSO be a place where you don't have to have continuity.
Which ties up with something that I've said elsewhere. Broaden the industry's focus. More individual series, more different genres, aim at more portions of the audience that aren't as present right now.
Manga, collections of strips and SiP manage to grab other groups, and use other genres and tones, so try and grab that. Add it to the menu. But don't take the audience you have, and toss out a chunk of what they like and tell them to like it.
(I know that's not what you meant, but you take my point I hope?)

(And OK, I'll admit, maybe I got a bit reactionary, but could you explain precisely what you mean by the optional concept, other than random acknowledgement, ignorance, homage and contradiction in an area which has been presented as serialised, to the point where both the fans who hate continuity and those who don't are utterly confused?)

[west3man]

And we always got back "There's a place for it, but that place you think is the place for it, isn't"
Minus the "always," I agree.

[Charles RB]

However I do mind that the Radioactive Man is a Russian villian in Black Panther and a Chinese hero in Thunderbolts. Had he just cluttered up BP I would not have minded but when BP crosses over into X-men which I read I do.

Just do what I do and pretend the new Black Panther series never happened.

[Tommy]

Just do what I do and pretend the new Black Panther series never happened.
I would if I could, but this image has been seered into my brain...

http://img266.imageshack.us/img266/5118/img0025no.jpg

THE HORROR! THE HORROR!

[Gaz]

I would if I could, but this image has been seered into my brain...

http://img266.imageshack.us/img266/5118/img0025no.jpg

THE HORROR! THE HORROR!
Ah, but it's hours of fun trying to guess what Black Bolt said! :D

[Tommy]

Ah, but it's hours of fun trying to guess what Black Bolt said! :D
My guess is that he was wondering what he was doing in such a sucky comic.

[Kid Omega]

Minus the "always," I agree.

You agree that that's what he thought I was saying?

[Gaz]

My guess is that he was wondering what he was doing in such a sucky comic.
"WTF?!"



That sum it up?

[Slam_Bradley]

Just do what I do and pretend the new Black Panther series never happened.


See...I don't see why this is so hard. I agree with you Charles. I've ignored entire decades worth of comics.

[MacQuarrie]

And here lies the crux of our defensiveness. The notion that if all us bad ol' people who like it went away then comics would instantly be better and everyone in the world would start buying them.
You don't have to go away. you just have to stop demanding that ALL comics from a given company HAVE to be interrelated and part of a gigantic cross-title mythology. Why can't DC publish Sugar & Spike, Captain Carrot, Angel & the Ape, or Inferior Five without some tedious explanation for how they fit with Batman?
A)Do you honestly believe it's the only or main reason why sales have dropped?No. Sales dropped for a lot of reasons, but the obsessive fanboy anal-retentive continuity fixation is the one and only reason why sales haven't come back up.
B)Do you seriously want us to stop reading, to stop getting enjoyment out of this medium?
No, I seriously want you to allow people with different tastes to also read and enjoy this medium.
If so, and if you said no to the above, why? (Or at least, as much enjoyment. I love Y-The Last Man, and Sandman, and Blue Monday, and Strangers in Paradise, and Invincible, because, although Larsen's approach bugs me, it's established that they exist more or less in a vacuum)
I don't think it's an either/or question.

It is, however, a two-way street. You want the freedom to read the kind of comics you like, but you are putting up a roadblock for the casual or impulse reader or the person who doesn't give a crap about continuity or cross-title interrelation.

Marvel's multiple lines could be a nice attempt at having it both ways, except the anal-retentive fanboys have already drawn out the lines and laid down the rules and burdened each of those universes with their own tedious continuity.

There's room for all kinds of comics, but only if onw group doesn't force their view onto the entire medium. Your side is doing that. My side is doing exactly the opposite. You want your comics to all relate and interconnect? Rock on. Just please give me a whole story that I can enjoy without having memorized 60 years of backstory. And I really don't give a crap if it contradicts something somebody else wrote about the character back when I was nine, and if it bothers you, please don't write a six-part miniseries to explain it unless you can be entertaining while you're at it.

I don't think that's too much to ask.

[Joe Rice]

If there was no place for stuff out of continuity then we would never have had Batman The Dark Knight Returns, She-Hulk's 2nd series, The Ultimate and All Star lines, The 2099 titles, What ifs, Elseworlds, The End books...

There are plenty of outlits at both companys that are out of continuity.

I wouldn't call 10 percent or less "plenty." I want every writer to have the option.

However I do mind that the Radioactive Man is a Russian villian in Black Panther and a Chinese hero in Thunderbolts. Had he just cluttered up BP I would not have minded but when BP crosses over into X-men which I read I do. Or when the X-men are fighting an insane Danger Room in Astonishing and being attacked by Mojo in the Danger Room in Uncanny. And that the Danger Room was giving off telepathic signals that only Xavier picked up even though Jean Grey, Rachel Grey, Emma Frost, and the Stepford Cuckoos were all living in the mansion. And that it is some how Xavier's fault that the Danger room was ignored even though the Danger room was distroyed by Magneto and allmost immdiatly after that Xaiver was off in Genosha.

If one of those stories bothers you, don't read it. Or think of it as another story. I don't like what Marvel did after Morrison, so I don't read any of it and I'm fine.

[Tommy]

You don't have to go away. you just have to stop demanding that ALL comics from a given company HAVE to be interrelated and part of a gigantic cross-title mythology. Why can't DC publish Sugar & Spike, Captain Carrot, Angel & the Ape, or Inferior Five without some tedious explanation for how they fit with Batman?

Sales are the reason for a shared Universe. Back when Marvel first started Stan Lee learned with in two or three years that the reading public likes to have their characters interact.

The whole idea for the Avengers and JSA were based off the fact that people would buy cross over titles.

No. Sales dropped for a lot of reasons, but the obsessive fanboy anal-retentive continuity fixation is the one and only reason why sales haven't come back up.

No sales dropped for the same reasons book, magazine, movie, theater, and TV shows dropped.

Sales have not picked up for the same reasons book, magazine, movie, theater and TV shows have not picked up.

No, I seriously want you to allow people with different tastes to also read and enjoy this medium.

I don't think it's an either/or question.

It is, however, a two-way street. You want the freedom to read the kind of comics you like, but you are putting up a roadblock for the casual or impulse reader or the person who doesn't give a crap about continuity or cross-title interrelation.

There are plenty of TPBs, graphic novels, and manga compilations that cater to this.

Marvel's multiple lines could be a nice attempt at having it both ways, except the anal-retentive fanboys have already drawn out the lines and laid down the rules and burdened each of those universes with their own tedious continuity.

The titles in say the Ultimate line adhere to their own internal continuity. Continuity that is easily picked up on since all of it is available in TPB format.

And the Ultimate line has its own share of flaws. The Fantastic Four are mentioned in the Ultimates, appeared in Ultimate Team-Up, and then were formed a year or so later in Ultimate Fantastic Four.

[Slam_Bradley]

And the Ultimate line has its own share of flaws. The Fantastic Four are mentioned in the Ultimates, appeared in Ultimate Team-Up, and then were formed a year or so later in Ultimate Fantastic Four.


That's only a flaw if you perceive it as such. As long as the story is good, who cares?

[MacQuarrie]

Answer this though, could I watch Scrubs, or The West Wing, only knowing the gist of the set-up and still more or less make sense of what was happening, and even enjoy it? Both have tons of back-story at play, explicit and implicit, and yet they get consistent ratings and are renewed every year.
But when you sit down to watch Scrubs, you don't have to know what happened on St. Elsewhere back in February of 1987. And Scrubs has not yet seen fit to do an episode explaining why Dr. Kildare is still young, or going back in time to introduce Ben Casey to Marcus Welby and help them both fight off an attack of the killer ants from Outer Limits.

Scrubs also doen't go back and rewrite the pilot episode, inserting changes that affect every subsequent episode, such as, say, removing a main character and replacing her with somebody who was introduced last week, then demanding that the audience remember the change and honor the substitution in all subsesquent discussion of the series.

And if Scrubs were to do a crossover with ER, it would be a one-time in-joke, not an attempt to establish cross-show continuity. If ER then decided to do an episode where the cast is watchng Scrubs in the break room, nobody would feel the need to write an episode explaining how it could be possible.

It's not the continuity that's the problem; it's the dependence on continuity, coupled with constant revision of said continuity.