Gaping hole in Bendis-logic

[Erkoban]

The world was peaceful and somewhat serene in Hous of M, right? But the heroes went and shattered that world because it wasn't the real world, because it was a construct wanda made in order to fullfill the needs of her deranged mind, influenced by her brother and their shared past with their father's demented idealism and activism.

Wanda had to die, Pietro had to die, Magneto had to die, that's what the heroes went out to do. Kill them. Murder them. Have them undo the horrible world they had created, even if it wasn't all that bad a place.

So why aren't they doing the exact same thing now?

because like it or not... this new world, without the mutants, is not the actual world. It's still a wanda-construct.

So where are the cries of the Avengers and the X-men to have this new reality undone?

[Christopher O]

because like it or not... this new world, without the mutants, is not the actual world. It's still a wanda-construct.

So where are the cries of the Avengers and the X-men to have this new reality undone?

Um, this world isn't a construct. She didn't rewrite the entire reality again. She took away the mutant gene.

[Gaveedra 6]

It's true, that the current reality is a result of her woogie, albiet a lesser one than the House of M business. But it seems like no one knows where the S Witch or Pietro are at the moment. And I figure all the heroes are still reeling from their experience and aren't about to go charging off hunting Maximoffs.

[Cayman]

It's true, that the current reality is a result of her woogie, albiet a lesser one than the House of M business. But it seems like no one knows where the S Witch or Pietro are at the moment. And I figure all the heroes are still reeling from their experience and aren't about to go charging off hunting Maximoffs.

Hawkeye might.

Cay

[Gaveedra 6]

Hawkeye might.

Cay
hehe. that would be cool. Maybe finally when the Avengers come face to face with Wanda, they'll just be getting some answers from her... and an arrow will shoot out of nowhere! Take that, Scarlet Biotch! Err.. I guessthat already happened in HoM #7... o well..

[Brian M.]

I think becuase they can't find Wanda. Also she might also not have her powers anymore. Here's the question I'm curious about now...if Wanda could change things like she did, why didn't she in the first place just take away her mutant gene. Of all the solutions Xavier and Strange tried, did anyone think of asking her to just turn off her gene?

[Erkoban]

Um, this world isn't a construct. She didn't rewrite the entire reality again. She took away the mutant gene.

oh hey, you know, perfect world and all, we don't want it, we don't want to be happy, let's storm Genosha and kill the maximoffs... and if we get a totally screwed up world in return, then hey who cares, because you know, thousands of people having their lives forever altered, and a whole segment of the population if in a worse position than humans were in the HOM reality, that's just not enough for us to get worked up over.

The Avengers are acting little total dickheads by not giving this any of their attention.

Hey we're human, and we're on top of the foodchain again, screw those muties, screw this new altered reality. I'm not a mutie so I don't care.

[Beast]

People keep calling the HoM version of reality a construct, but it really was real. Just as real as when Kulan Gath turned New York into a Hyborian Era city or any of the other countless times someone's altered reality. As for having Wanda woogie away her mutant gene, I'm doubt Magneto would have taken it well. And she wasn't exactly the most lucid at the time. But they were going to Genosha to talk to her, so maybe the suggestion would have been raised then. Unfortunatly Pietro jumped to conclusions and screwed everything up. :)

[bat2supe]

Interresting argument.

That's clear that when House of M began they immediatly go to the House of Magnus in order to find the Magnus family & more specificly Wanda in order to obtain changes.

I don't think they are gonna do this 'cause Marvel obtained what House of M was made for: a lame explain in order to reduce mutant number.
But certainly it would be argued that she loost her power to so the decimation is unalterable. ;) :confused: :p

[Beast]

Erkoban, I think you're being a bit harsh on the Avengers situation. Considering the fact that they're dealing with their own fallout from HoM. They certainly weren't being heartless about the situation, but got distracted by the activity at the old mansion. The Avengers do have mutant allies and friends, so I hardly think they're going to just ignore the situation. And we'll likely see more of their personal feelings on the fallout of HoM when New Avengers gets to that point post HoM.

[Cayman]

Wanda shouldn't be too hard to find. She put herself in familiar surroundings. Logan could probably find her.

Cay

[Christopher O]

oh hey, you know, perfect world and all, we don't want it, we don't want to be happy, let's storm Genosha and kill the maximoffs... and if we get a totally screwed up world in return, then hey who cares, because you know, thousands of people having their lives forever altered, and a whole segment of the population if in a worse position than humans were in the HOM reality, that's just not enough for us to get worked up over.

The Avengers are acting little total dickheads by not giving this any of their attention.

Hey we're human, and we're on top of the foodchain again, screw those muties, screw this new altered reality. I'm not a mutie so I don't care.
So what does this have to do with what I posted? I was just correcting you.

[Erkoban]

Interresting argument.

That's clear that when House of M began they immediatly go to the House of Magnus in order to find the Magnus family & more specificly Wanda in order to obtain changes.

I don't think they are gonna do this 'cause Marvel obtained what House of M was made for: a lame explain in order to reduce mutant number.
But certainly it would be argued that she loost her power to so the decimation is unalterable. ;) :confused: :p

Unfortunately logic didn't bother the heroes in the first place.

They realized that reality had been altered and rushed to Genosha immediately willing to kill magneto and his entire family. They didn't care about the details or how and what caused reality to have been altered, they didn't bother with any other solution other than kill them, kill all of them.

Marvel wants mutants to be a minority again to make them a more appropriate analogue?

then get this analogue...

House of Black.

The heroes awaken in a world where roles have been reversed, black people are in control, they have all the political power. The heroes rush off to undo this reality, because it's not the reality that should be in place.
They succeed, or rather reality gets fixed, except that the majority of black people find themselves white all of a sudden.

In this new reality, which still isn't identical to the actual reality the heroes wanted to restore it to, the heroes just seem to shrug and go, hey we're not black so why bother?

replace black with gay or jewish and you still get a situation that isn't exactly all that respectable is it now?

When the world was changed initially they didn't care about details. Wanda was a human in that reality, at least that's what they knew, all the information they had on this reality and wanda was that she was human and unable to alter it back. Didn't mean they didn't go to Genosha to seek her out?

So why not go on a search for Wanda right now?

[Erkoban]

So what does this have to do with what I posted? I was just correcting you.

she still altered reality, you didn't correct me, you made up an excuse. She altered reality by taking away the mutant gene in certain characters, or just their powers.

She altered reality, just like she did the first time.

but the first time the heroes could be bothered enough to get off their asses to go and fight her and her entire family, the second time, they just sat idly by not really caring about the new situation, and just accepting it as it is.

[Christopher O]

she still altered reality, you didn't correct me, you made up an excuse. She altered reality by taking away the mutant gene in certain characters, or just their powers.

She altered reality, just like she did the first time.
It wasn't like the first time. The first time she wrote right over the past and the present. This time, she just extracted something from reality. I'd hardly call it the same thing.

[Erkoban]

It wasn't like the first time. The first time she wrote right over the past and the present. This time, she just extracted something from reality. I'd hardly call it the same thing.

Wuite frankly what you think doesn't matter, because your opinion is subjective and you're simply ignoring facts.

Fact: Wanda altered reality twice, the first time the heroes acted on it, the second time they didn't.

if wanda playing god the first time was reason enough to take action, then it should also be the same when she plays god a second time.

she altered reality. period. fact. you can't deny it by making up excuses.

[Christopher O]

Wuite frankly what you think doesn't matter, because your opinion is subjective and you're simply ignoring facts.

Fact: Wanda altered reality twice, the first time the heroes acted on it, the second time they didn't.

if wanda playing god the first time was reason enough to take action, then it should also be the same when she plays god a second time.

she altered reality. period. fact. you can't deny it by making up excuses.
I'm not making up excuses. You claimed the current world isn't the actual one, and that's simply not true. Wanda didn't overwrite reality again. She simply took something out of it. Is that altering reality? Yes, of course it is. I never said it wasn't.

[Hi-Fi]

Except she doens't has her powers anymore so she can't turn things back. Accept it.

[Erkoban]

I'm not making up excuses. You claimed the current world isn't the actual one, and that's simply not true. Wanda didn't overwrite reality again. She simply took something out of it. Is that altering reality? Yes, of course it is. I never said it wasn't.

She "simply" took something out of it. She altered reality. You admit it, yet you're still in denial of the most obvious fact, as if you're desperately affraid to believe it, because it might mean you have to question the abilities of Bendis as a writer.

She altered reality, she took something out of it... ergo it's not longer the same world as it was pre-house of M.

The heroes set out to restore reality and you admit that they FAILED.

Thus, reality is still altered, and the problem the heroes set out to solve at the beginning is still at large.

[Erkoban]

Except she doens't has her powers anymore so she can't turn things back. Accept it.

during the house of M period she was also a "mere" sapien.

accept it, the heroes should have bells ringing loudly and still seek her out. She is still the culprit.

[Christopher O]

She "simply" took something out of it. She altered reality. You admit it, yet you're still in denial of the most obvious fact, as if you're desperately affraid to believe it, because it might mean you have to question the abilities of Bendis as a writer.

You need to tone down the personal insults. You're making assumptions about my opinions, and I'm asking you to stop. Borderline trolling is still trolling.

[Hi-Fi]

during the house of M period she was also a "mere" sapien.

accept it, the heroes should have bells ringing loudly and still seek her out. She is still the culprit.

No, she wasn't. She was a mutant.


wasn't she? :confused:

[Jake V]

during the house of M period she was also a "mere" sapien.

accept it, the heroes should have bells ringing loudly and still seek her out. She is still the culprit.
Maybe give it another month, huh? The issue only came out last week.

Who knows what will happen in the future?

[Hi-Fi]

You need to tone down the personal insults. You're making assumptions about my opinions, and I'm asking you to stop. Borderline trolling is still trolling.

I think Wanda did something to him as well...

[Jake V]

No, she wasn't. She was a mutant.


wasn't she? :confused:
She WAS a mutant, but according to the world at the time, she was human.

[Christopher O]

She WAS a mutant, but according to the world at the time, she was human.
As far as anyone knew, she was human, but that was shown quite clearly to be untrue in Hom #7--which might have been what you were saying. I wasn't clear on that. ;)

[Jake V]

As far as anyone knew, she was human, but that was shown quite clearly to be untrue in Hom #7.
Isn't that like, exactly what I said?

[Christopher O]

Isn't that like, exactly what I said?
Which is why I immediately ammended my post. I just wasn't sure.

[Beast]

No, she wasn't. She was a mutant.


wasn't she? :confused:
Yes, the construct of her was the one that was human version.

[Jake V]

Which is why I immediately ammended my post. I just wasn't sure.
Ah, I see it now. Nevermind.

[Hi-Fi]

See?? i said it : )

[Beast]

The fact is, noone knows where Wanda is at the moment. We the readers know she's in some sort of gypsy village, but noone else knows that. They can't find her with Cerebra, and it's not like she left a forwarding address. Even Magnus doesn't know where she went. Add on top of that the fact that both the X-Men and Avengers have to deal with the outcome of House of M, they arn't going to shift their focus to finding her. At least not until they clean up the huge mess left behind in the wake. Forgive them for trying to get their house in order first. At least they know she can't do it again, now that she's powerless.

[Hi-Fi]

The fact is, noone knows where Wanda is at the moment. We the readers know she's in some sort of gypsy village, but noone else knows that. They can't find her with Cerebra, and it's not like she left a forwarding address. Add on top of that the fact that both the X-Men and Avengers have to deal with the outcome of House of M, they arn't going to shift their focus to finding her. At least not until they clean up the huge mess left behind in the wake. Forgive them for trying to get their house in order first. At least they know she can't do it again, now that she's powerless.

Plus they already tried asking about her to Magneto.

[Beast]

Plus they already tried asking about her to Magneto.
Exactly. Frankly I think Erkoban is just looking to argue with people.

[Jake V]

I'm not sure if anyone has commented on the other question, as to why the heroes rushed to undo the changes that Wanda made to the world.

I see 2, maybe 3 reasons. First is the metatexual reason: Superheroes exist to preserve the status quo. It's the way it's always been.
Second, is the fact that an out of control insane reality warping mutant that just killed a bunch of Avengers has just now changed the entire world and installed the worlds most dangerous mutant terrorist as the leader of it all. Yeah. The superheroes of the world would be REEEAL happy with that.
Third, and it's kind of tied in with the second reason, is that after their minds were woken up by Layla Miller, they all had to deal with the fact that the lifetime of memories they had of the perfect existence were all lies. Kinda like that "for the man who has everything" Superman story. After realizing that the dream world he was living in was actually a dream, Superman was PISSED at the guy who made him go through it. Their reason for wanting to take down Magneto was simple, emotion-fueled revenge.

[moebius]

I see 2, maybe 3 reasons...(snip).

It's still very lazy writing to enact an editorially-mandated change.

They "heroes" throughout the piece looked like bullies and buffoons. They wake up in a new reality, and instead of asking questions or evaluating its worth they immediately try and tear it down, reaching the wrong conclusion. None of them take the "rational" course and defend the new status quo. The "logical" House of M would have played like the Infinity Crusade: some heroes for the new reality, some against. Again, that would have made for a more powerful story, especially when Peter Parker wakes up to find that not only has he lost Gwen Stacy and Uncle Ben again...he was willing to betray his old reality to keep them.

Then it's over, and the X-Men basically go to Genosha to terrorize Magneto, whose obviously lost his powers. They show no compasion, make no offer to bring him back to the mansion and help him, despite his obvious innocence in everything that's happened.

And there still is a very important reason to go after Wanda. If they can get her powered up again, she can undo what they did and return the "real" status quo.

[Alpha to Omega]

The HoM was not a perfect world. Humans weren't just being discriminated against but being put into concentration camps in Australia and enslaved in North Africa.

[The Fury]

We the readers know she's in some sort of gypsy village
Gypsy village?

Looked like a village in Slovakia to me. not very gypsy unless she is traveling arround.

[DDM]

The world was peaceful and somewhat serene in Hous of M, right? But the heroes went and shattered that world because it wasn't the real world, because it was a construct wanda made in order to fullfill the needs of her deranged mind, influenced by her brother and their shared past with their father's demented idealism and activism.

Wanda had to die, Pietro had to die, Magneto had to die, that's what the heroes went out to do. Kill them. Murder them. Have them undo the horrible world they had created, even if it wasn't all that bad a place.

So why aren't they doing the exact same thing now?

because like it or not... this new world, without the mutants, is not the actual world. It's still a wanda-construct.

So where are the cries of the Avengers and the X-men to have this new reality undone?


The illogicial premise is largely due to House of M's own underdeveloped story. Why did not the editors demand a new draft for the outline? House of M is nothing more than a published zero draft.

[Beast]

The illogicial premise is largely due to House of M's own underdeveloped story. Why did not the editors demand a new draft for the outline? House of M is nothing more than a published zero draft.
*Hands DDM the stick* The dead horse is over there. :D

Obviously not everyone feels the same as you do. Was it a perfect story, no. But it was good, and did what it was set out to do. Offer a compelling story, show an altered reality, reveal the mastermind behind it, and dial back the mutant population when the world was set back to normal.

[DDM]

*Hands DDM the stick* The dead horse is over there. :D

Obviously not everyone feels the same as you do. Was it a perfect story, no. But it was good, and did what it was set out to do. Offer a compelling story, show an altered reality, reveal the mastermind behind it, and dial back the mutant population when the world was set back to normal.

Except there was no middle or end just a couple of deus ex machinas, the Scarlet Witch & Layla Miller. That's not a complete story.

House of M is a brainstorming session on paper.

[Cayman]

No, she wasn't. She was a mutant.


wasn't she? :confused:

Yeah, she had a construct to appear for her at public affairs.

Cay

[crystalline green]

I think the biggest hole in logic is that nothing was really done with Wanda during HOM. Just as in Disassembled, she was just a plot device. We got zero character development (and no real peek inside her head or heart) despite the fact she should arguably have been the central character. She spent the entire mini-series off on the sidelines and basically just got wheeled in when it was time to cast another woogie.

[Babylon23]

I think the biggest hole in logic is that nothing was really done with Wanda during HOM. Just as in Disassembled, she was just a plot device. We got zero character development (and no real peek inside her head or heart) despite the fact she should arguably have been the central character. She spent the entire mini-series off on the sidelines and basically just got wheeled in when it was time to cast another woogie.

I have to agree here. There really was no examination of her motivations. A big reality altering machine would have had the same impact.

[jawbreaker]

reading the title of this thread, in light of the recent Generation M #1 preview...heeehee

sorry, Im in the need of some good laughs these days, what with putting up with hurricane Wilma( 2 weeks- no power= no fun), Marvel turning my fave character into a vegatable...all that.

o__o

[TinMan]

I have to agree here. There really was no examination of her motivations. A big reality altering machine would have had the same impact.

I must disagree here for two reasons:

1) Wanda was freaking wacko if you didn't notice, personal motovation is unnecassary, she was easily manipulated by Pietro because of this. I mean seriously, think about it, there are people in nut houses that just crap their pants for no reason. What motovation do they have for crappin their pants? None, they don't need any, they're nuts! Besides, in HoM #7 they included the whole scene between Pietro and Wanda talking, that gave more of an explanation and literally explained what I just said: Wanda's nuts and was easily manipulated because of it. Seems very plausible to me.

2) The status quo of HoM was that Wanda was human, but it was left to be revealed at the end of the mini that the "Wanda" the world knew about was a construct, the real one with the ability to alter reality was locked away in a tower (because she wanted to be) with her two fake children. That is what Wanda really wanted, her children. So she alters reality to appease Pietro so she won't be killed, gives everyone that could possibly stop her their deepest desire, and in a form brings peace to the world. Now the question is, what kind of character development are you gonna give without revealing that she was still a mutant and just hiding away? Theres not much you can do, you either keep it a surprise or you reveal it early on, and obviously Bendis and the editorial staff thought it best to reveal at the end of the mini.

[Cowlander]

I must disagree here for two reasons:

snippage......

Totally agree TinMan 4 teh win.

IN the end Wanda is a plot device, because the story isnt as much about her as it is about everyone reacting to her. Were shown everyone dealing with what shes done. Shes too crazy for any development of her char. How do you give a crazy person char development? That doesnt make sense.

[Babylon23]

I must disagree here for two reasons:

1) Wanda was freaking wacko if you didn't notice, personal motovation is unnecassary, she was easily manipulated by Pietro because of this. I mean seriously, think about it, there are people in nut houses that just crap their pants for no reason. What motovation do they have for crappin their pants? None, they don't need any, they're nuts! Besides, in HoM #7 they included the whole scene between Pietro and Wanda talking, that gave more of an explanation and literally explained what I just said: Wanda's nuts and was easily manipulated because of it. Seems very plausible to me.

While I understand your argument, I think the basic problem here is not necessarily HoM, but the idea presented in Disassembled that Wanda was crazy to begin with. Given that Wanda went from stable backbone of the team to suddenly crazy mass murderer, I was hoping that House of M might delve into that a little, and explain in a satisfying manner this change in personality. The "suddenly remembers her children" argument didn't work for me, so I was looking for more in HoM.

2) The status quo of HoM was that Wanda was human, but it was left to be revealed at the end of the mini that the "Wanda" the world knew about was a construct, the real one with the ability to alter reality was locked away in a tower (because she wanted to be) with her two fake children. That is what Wanda really wanted, her children. So she alters reality to appease Pietro so she won't be killed, gives everyone that could possibly stop her their deepest desire, and in a form brings peace to the world. Now the question is, what kind of character development are you gonna give without revealing that she was still a mutant and just hiding away? Theres not much you can do, you either keep it a surprise or you reveal it early on, and obviously Bendis and the editorial staff thought it best to reveal at the end of the mini.

Once again, I understand that, for the purposes of the story, they needed to keep Wanda hidden early on. However, they could have used the Wanda construct to provide some insight and hints, with further detail provided once the big reveal occurred.

It may just be that I'm biaised because I'm a big Scarlet Witch fan, but this story left me as unsatisfied as Avengers Disassembled did.

[crystalline green]

I second that. Even if we accepted Disassembled's flimsy premise (that Wanda went nutso because she "remembered" her children -- when it is established canon that she remembered and dealt with the issue of her children a long time ago. Something Bendis either chose to retcon or was completely ignorant of.) it's just a little too lazy to just say "Wanda is bananas" so ergo that its own motivation. By comparison, "Crazy Lorna" had a more plausible cause for her delicate mental state and even Austen was able to show us some progression and character development. No. Wanda's "craziness" is a plot device pure and simple just as her powers were used as a plot device to shoe-horn in the changes that Marvel/Bendis wanted to make. She was a perfectly solid character before this travesty. And now she's relegated to living depowered in some gypsy village limbo. :mad:

[Babylon23]

Wanda is living in a "gypsy" village? Gypsys are nomadic people who don't live in villages. The gypsys I saw in Europe were living mainly in caravans.

[crystalline green]

Sorry, I was being facetious about the whole 'gypsy' thing. Isn't she currently believed to be in Romania somewhere?

[Babylon23]

That's cool. I was just wondering if Marvel had called it a Gypsy village.

[Erik Lehnsherr]

There are a couple of holes...Pietro and Wanda blaming their father for their childhood when he wasn't there for it and the heroes wanting to KILL, not caputre, but KILL Magneto's family. It was crazy. EVERYONE in that group knows Wanda is not herself and is mentally ill at the highest degree but Spider Man and Emma want her dead as soon as they get to Genosha. Those two issues stand out. Not to mention that Magneto was more innnocent in this entire mess than all of them combined and he threatened and harassed at the end by not only his children but the X-Men as well. It was almost like the heroes became the villians in the story.