A Feast for Crows (SPOILERS)

[Inkthinker]

DO NOT PROCEED INTO THIS THREAD IF YOU HAVE NOT READ THE BOOK AND GIVE A DAMN AT ALL ABOUT THE SERIES. SPOILERS ABOUND!!

So, the book is released today in the US if I'm not mistaken, and if you live in Europe it's likely that you've had it for a couple weeks already. I was lucky enough to snag a reader copy from a bookstore, and I know a couple others have been able to do the same.

Now that you've finished one-half of the third book (so to speak, given that A Feast For Crows and A Dance of Dragons are essentially, together, "Book 3"), what's your thoughts on it?

Couple things:

I'll eat my hat if the giant monk on the island that Brienne, Pod and Hyle stopped at wasn't Sandor Clegane. That abbot is covering for him so that he can attempt to repent for his sins. I'm also quite certain that Davos Seaworth still retains his head, despite whatever ravens Cersei's recieved.

I was psyched as heck to get some Arya chapters, since I thought she'd be part of A Dance of Dragons. I was right on about her becoming an assassin in Braavos... but I was surprised that she slit Dareon's throat (not that it wasn't just, I suppose, espescially given that Ned used to execute Black Brothers for abandoning their vows). The little Cat of the Canals is growing up vicious.

I'm liking Jaime a lot more now, espescially at the end of this book. It's a mark of Martin's skill that I could despise him so much in the first two books, and feel completely different about him now.

I'm sorry Brienne got scarred worse than she is. Just the same, I don't think her story ends on that rope. We're not nearly done with her or "Lady Stoneheart".

I think it's pretty obvious that the princess of Cersei's nightmares is Dany, not Margaery. And given that, I look forward to Tyrion getting his vengeance as prophesied.

I got more, but that's a start. The next book can't come soon enough for me... :D

[cactusmaac]

I think Sandor's dead since I would only have expected him to keep going if he had unfinished business with Gregor which obviously won't happen since the latter died of his injuries.

Also if Sandor is alive, why would the monks have risked gelding Stranger when they alrwady had the guy who knew how to handle him?

I was very surprised to have Davos apparently be killed but I suppose we'll have to wait for Dance to confirm.

It was wonderful and so unexpected for Cersei to get her comeuppance as she did. Although pretty ironic for Margaery to get backstabbed because Cersei felt threatened by her loss of position and not because she found out the Tyrells killed Joffrey.

The stuff about Cersei\Rhaegar (and the prophecy) felt somewhat tacked on but it does make sense considering how Cersei wasn't her usual bitch self when it came to dealing with Sansa.

Plus I think the prophecy referred to her being screwed over by a younger brother. Since I think Jaime was younger than her, it could mean he was fulfilling the prophecy and not Tyrion.

Jaime is really damn cool. Wonder what the reference to Kingmaker implied for the future. More than him though, my estimation of Sansa has really grown. The part about her feelings for Jon was nice.

I am kind of irritated by how much of a pussy Sam still is. He's ben through enough shit to have changed by now.

[Inkthinker]

I think Sandor's dead since I would only have expected him to keep going if he had unfinished business with Gregor which obviously won't happen since the latter died of his injuries.

Also if Sandor is alive, why would the monks have risked gelding Stranger when they alrwady had the guy who knew how to handle him?



Cause he's "dead", he's abandoned the identity of Sandor Clegane completely... and of course, it's possible that the story of attempting to geld Stranger was also a coverup for something else that caused that monk to be wounded.

I could be wrong, but I thought it was odd that Martin essentially wrote a whole scene to tell us a little something about what happened to the Hound, and he made specific note of that very large monk digging the graves.

I could be wrong, but I just got a feelin'... we ain't seen the last of the Hound.

[Pendaran]

These are depressingly undetailed spoilers for the impatient who won't be able to get the book for a long while *sulk*

[Expletive Deleted]

I liked it, but . . . well, two things. First, Davos's alleged death threw me. It was one of too many important events that happened offscreen. I suppose that's what you get when you structure a book like this, but it bugged me.

Second, Cersei's chapters didn't work. I don't necessarily have to like the POV character, but there has to be something at least a little sympathetic there. And with Cersei, there wasn't. She was stupid, arrogant, stupid . . . can I just say "stupid" a few dozen more times? Which, y'know, was perfectly true to her character, but it didn't make for compelling reading. Plus, the lesbian routine was a bit much.

In the middle, Brienne and Sam's chapters didn't do much for me. I didn't dislike them, but they seemed more about killing time and setting the stage for later storylines than they about actually doing something.

On the upside, Arya's chapters were as good as I was expecting, as were the ones for the Arryn, Martell, and Greyjoy contingents. The Kingsmoot was entertaining, and that final revelation about Doran Martell's intentions was a great moment.

Like Inkthinker, I'm becoming very fond of Jaime. And, yeah, the big, limping monk is almost guaranteed to be Sandor.

One little thing. I liked the way Martin started mucking with the chapter titles. Instead of names, we're getting titles, aliases, and descriptions. Much more fun.

All in all . . . good, but incomplete. At some point, I almost think I'd like an omnibus edition with all the pieces in the "right" order.

[Inkthinker]

One little thing. I liked the way Martin started mucking with the chapter titles. Instead of names, we're getting titles, aliases, and descriptions. Much more fun.


Yeah, I liked that too. Espescially when the chapter title is more indicative of the character's "identity" than their name would be, such as "The Drowned Priest", "The Captain of the Guards", and "Cat of the Canals".

I agree that Brienne and Sam's chapters seemed more like setup than plot, but significant things DID occur... Sam's nights with Gilly, the death of Aemon Targaryen, the hints concerning Clegane, the fates of some of the Mummers, Brienne finally becoming a killer, her becoming scarred further, and the continued slow dissemination of information to characters who exist in a world without reliable communications channels that we often take for granted. There's little or no way for the Westerosi to discover what's happening on the other side of the world, short of rumours, until more reliable sources return from their travels (such as Sam, and he's told that most won't believe him). By the time the Westerosi realize that dragons DO live once again, they may be landing on their shores. And that's assuming they're not consumed by holy war, the Others or their own backstabbing politics.

[Surt]

Overall I liked the book although it suffers a bit from only containing half the story. However, in 100 years or so, when the series is finally complete and I'm going to reread it, I think it will hold up quite well.


I'll eat my hat if the giant monk on the island that Brienne, Pod and Hyle stopped at wasn't Sandor Clegane. That abbot is covering for him so that he can attempt to repent for his sins. I'm also quite certain that Davos Seaworth still retains his head, despite whatever ravens Cersei's recieved.


I agree on both counts. Actually I'm 99% sure of Clegane. The horse is there because he's the only one who can control it. Since the mountain is probably also alive -albeit in a monstrous form - Sandor still has some unfinished business. Also, it would be far too much of a letdown to have both the Cleganes dying off-screen, when so much effort has gone into setting up their final battle. Davos has a pov in DwD. He might die there, but I don't think so. Or hope so, as he's one of the very few decent men in the books.


I'm liking Jaime a lot more now, espescially at the end of this book. It's a mark of Martin's skill that I could despise him so much in the first two books, and feel completely different about him now.


Jaime is becoming one of my favorite characters. In SoS he thinks about the fight between Dayne and the Smiling Knight. He became a knight to be like Dayne, and he wonders how he became like the Smiling Knight instead (the mountain of our day - half the size but twice as evil). However, it seems as if he's trying to redeem himself more and more.


I'm sorry Brienne got scarred worse than she is. Just the same, I don't think her story ends on that rope. We're not nearly done with her or "Lady Stoneheart".


I agree and I don't hope so, as it would render her endless wandering throughout the book useless. However, I hope that she's not swearing to kill Jaime.

Some more rambling.

Sam is still useless, but hopefully he will a)stop whining and do something useful or b) get killed in a most unpleasant way.

The Dorne chapters RULED. Hotah was born to kick @$$ and Martell's revelation in the last Dorne chapter promises great things to come. The Sand Snakes are pretty lousy though.

Sansa isn't as despicable as before and she's starting to actually do something instead of just observing. And Littlefinger is so damn cool.

The story on the Iron Isles was nice but suffered from a very predictable ending. However, the alternating pov's was a nice touch and I want to see my new hero Victarion split open some skulls. I think that the Ironmen may very well be Dany's biggest obstacle when retaking the seven kingdoms.

Well, my biggest letdown was that after 5 years waiting I finished the book in 3 days and now I have to wait again. ARGH!!!

[cactusmaac]

To be honest, I think resurrecting Catelyn was a bit pointless if they weren't going to use her a lot more than they did here.

[adamthered]

Finally finished this yesterday. After five years, I was more than thrilled to be back in Westeros.

I enjoyed it, GRRM's books always suck me in and it takes me longer to read these than other books because I don't want to skip over a single word for fear of missing something important.

I especially liked how this book was more from the POV of the female characters. Even though none of the characters other than Jaime that I like to read about were in this book (oh Arya was, her too) I really enjoyed getting into the heads of Cersei, Brienne, Asha Greyjoy. Meeting the rest of the Greyjoy brood was all interesting.

Very light on the action and fighting sequences and normally this would cause me some boredom in a book. However, GRRM is such a master at his craft I'm interested in what drives and motivates the characters.

Can't wait for Dance of Dragons so I can have the other half of the book. Where's Tyrion? What's going on at The Wall? If Davos really dead? Will Dani make it to Westeros with her dragons? Will Hodor have a POV chapter ;) ? So many questions to be answered.

[Valmore]

So... how much anyone wanna bet there's a Kettleblack in Cersei's oven?

[Inkthinker]

oooooh... brutal. Might be, might be... He did get his payment, after all.

[Valmore]

I'm just wondering, because it sure seems like Martin decided to highlight Cersei's gowns not fitting correct a couple times over, which makes me wonder... and really, which Kettleblack's would it be?!? She's doing at least two of them.

[adamthered]

I'm just wondering, because it sure seems like Martin decided to highlight Cersei's gowns not fitting correct a couple times over, which makes me wonder... and really, which Kettleblack's would it be?!? She's doing at least two of them.

Funny. I never thought of it like that. I was looking at it as more of her not wanting to admit she is starting to age and that was why she started her relationship with the younger Tyrell woman.

However the Kettleblack pregnancy theory shouldn't be ignored. Then again, it could be Moon Boy's for all we know... :D

[Valmore]

Funny. I never thought of it like that. I was looking at it as more of her not wanting to admit she is starting to age and that was why she started her relationship with the younger Tyrell woman.

However the Kettleblack pregnancy theory shouldn't be ignored. Then again, it could be Moon Boy's for all we know... :D

Of course, if the prophecy is to be believed, she has had all of her children - the ugly crone predicted 16 for King Baratheon and three for her. But who says prophecies are always right?

Of course, she could just be getting fat like King Robert did...

[Valmore]

Aynhow, now that I've finished and digested the book, I'll post some other spoilers for our disappointed friend...

Interesting that we come back to Viserys and that Prince Doran was planning on wedding Adrianne to him and bring back the Dragons into the picture. Of course, had it actually happened, methinks the woman would have cut off his cock the first time he tried to abuse her like he did Dany in the first book.

Getting inside Cersei's head was a delightfully unpleasant experience, and now we all know that the Lannisters all have certain things they crave that they'll never have. Tyrion wants respect. Jamie wants honor. Cersei wants a penis. Literally. Especially since she keeps imagining how it would feel to do Tanea, as well as that she'd truly be king and respected. However, I believe this comeuppance will be short-lived, since everything Martin writes is coming back to Dany, which means SHE'S the queen from the prophecy that will unseat Cersei, not Margaery Tyrell.

And that seems to be the point of this book, and probably the other book to come - to work bringing Dany back to Westeros. The King of the Iron Isles is sending his brother for her to wed. Prince Doran is looking to bring her. The propechy of Cersei's youth seems to indicate her. The Maester of the Wall thinks Melisandre has the wrong person, and Dany is the one, not Stannis. Hopefully this means Dany becomes more interesting, because to me, she's been an extremely boring character.

I'm wondering Littlefinger's angle here. Peter Baelish never does anything out of the goodness of his heart. While his plan seems to have merit, where does he end up fitting in it? Does he mean for Sansa to make him a lord or something after it all works out?

It appears Arya will have an even tougher time dropping herself from House Stark in Braavosi. I wonder if this condition is a test or permanent.

And Catelyn Stark continues to be a waste. She acted stupid in the other books and in death she acts just as stupid. Beric Dondarrion acting to serve dead King Robert's kingdom was much more interesting that Catelyn hanging everyone. What Brienne said at the end will be interesting to find out in book 6, however.

And Jamie Lannister really steals this book. The man that nobody will deign to recognize honor from has been acting almost as honorable as Eddard Stark. Managing to take Riverrun without breaking his oath to take up arms against Stark or Tully was sheer genius. He might not be as brilliant as Tyrion, but he's not nearly as stupid as Cersei is, surrounding herself with ineffectual dolts, which he recognizes. I hope he at least manages to become a passable swordfighter with his left hand. His final denial to Cersei at the end of the book really makes me like this character. He's up there with Jon Snow and Tyrion and Arya on my list.

In all, I'm drooling for the second half of the book next year with "A Dance With Dragons." But I get the feeling we won't get much from Snow's perspective like we did - it seems we never get perspectives of the leaders, aside from Cersei. I get this feeling we'll be seeing it from Dolorous Edd.

Good enough spoilers for ya, Pendaran?

[cactusmaac]

So... how much anyone wanna bet there's a Kettleblack in Cersei's oven?

Naah. Cersei probably keeps moon tea on tap.

[Inkthinker]

I expect Jaime to become more than a passable swordsman with his left, in time... I believe that it's been mentioned more than once that Payne is no slouch in the swords department, and Jaime is picking it up slowly but surely...

I'm enjoying more characterisation of Eddard's executioner, for that matter... This seems to be one of Martin's better "gimmicks", for lack of a better term... he'll introduce a character and you'll despise them for the acts they perform, then he'll pull you into the character's head and leave you sympathising, even empathising with that character.

[Inkthinker]

Naah. Cersei probably keeps moon tea on tap.

Are you sure about that? It's been pretty well established that she doesn't trust the Maesters (or anyone, for all that), so where would she be getting it? For the Queen Regent to be taking birth control medicine would be possibly nearly as damning as Margaery.

[cactusmaac]

She's been shagging Jaime for years.

She has to have some kind of birth control measures.

Besides which wouldn't Cersei have known she was pregnant (missed periods etc) significantly before she started putting on weight?

I think the thing about the dresses is simply to illustrate how she's not getting younger.

[Valmore]

Naah. Cersei probably keeps moon tea on tap.

Yeah, but lately she's also been keeping the wine on tap next to it, too. ;)

[Mike Smash!]

She's been shagging Jaime for years.

She has to have some kind of birth control measures.

Besides which wouldn't Cersei have known she was pregnant (missed periods etc) significantly before she started putting on weight?

I think the thing about the dresses is simply to illustrate how she's not getting younger.That's how I took it too.

With the exception of Tyrion, the Lannisters are very conscious of their appearance, as it's part of their presense. That's why Tywin shaved his head when his hair started to recede. It was a physical sign of age and weakness.

But Cersei lives in a fantasy world where she's the second coming of Tywin and all of her actions and brilliant and she's immortal. She is not introspective in any way, she thinks only in the short term where her father (and Tyrion) was always three steps ahead of the game. She acts out of anger, paranoia or fear more than anything, she acts on whims and the only weapons in her arsenal are either sex or blatant threats about "dying screaming". She throws away good competant people and replaces them with stupid yes men who aren't smart enough to overthrow her and she even hires on monsters like Qyburn (God only knows what he does to people).

It's amazing how much longer the rule of Tyrion lasted and how much more he was able to do than Cersei, taking into account that people hated him and looked down on him.

[Valmore]

But Cersei lives in a fantasy world where she's the second coming of Tywin and all of her actions and brilliant and she's immortal. She is not introspective in any way, she thinks only in the short term where her father (and Tyrion) was always three steps ahead of the game. She acts out of anger, paranoia or fear more than anything, she acts on whims and the only weapons in her arsenal are either sex or blatant threats about "dying screaming". She throws away good competant people and replaces them with stupid yes men who aren't smart enough to overthrow her and she even hires on monsters like Qyburn (God only knows what he does to people).

Of course, the problem being that since they aren't smart enough to overthrow her, thay also aren't smart enough to be effectual in any way, hence, no one fears them, so why fear Cersei? Guess the new High Septon doesn't fear her, especially since she was stupid enough to allow the faith to re-arm themselves again. Oops.

It's amazing how much longer the rule of Tyrion lasted and how much more he was able to do than Cersei, taking into account that people hated him and looked down on him.

Tyrion already knows everyone hates him, so there was no risk in doing the smarter plays. He has Tywin's gift for planning and foresight, but not the ruthlessness... and has a thing for whores. Tyrion would be a great lord or king, if not for his ugliness and that people associate him being some evil monster because he's a dwarf.