The Jedi are the evil ones right?

[kkraven]

Is it just me or are the Jedi portrayed in the movies complete dicks who exhibit traits much like their Sith cousins? They just let Shaakti get run without even flinching. I know it was a deleted scene but still.....a-holes.

[SuperSaiyaMan12]

Is it just me or are the Jedi portrayed in the movies complete dicks who exhibit traits much like their Sith cousins? They just let Shaakti get run without even flinching. I know it was a deleted scene but still.....a-holes.
Even though the Jedi weren't paragons of Light, Truth, and Justice in the movies, they were still looking out for the Republic. They don't do mass genocides. They protect the weak. They don't create abominations. They are not the like the Sith.

[Jagatai_Khan]

Is it just me or are the Jedi portrayed in the movies complete dicks who exhibit traits much like their Sith cousins? They just let Shaakti get run without even flinching. I know it was a deleted scene but still.....a-holes.

They were, indeed, pretty morally ambigous in the movies.

I personally felt like the tack that Lucas took in the new movies was friggin retarded. Emotions = Dark. No-emotion = Good?

Right. So with no emotions, you get uncaring, cold and detached Jedi who really aren't doing anyone much good. I remember the Jedi in the old trilogy, and they weren't like that. They were warm and compassionate, and they cared about people, and had senses of humor. They weren't dull brainwashed pawns.

[Ant Crown]

Is it just me or are the Jedi portrayed in the movies complete dicks who exhibit traits much like their Sith cousins? They just let Shaakti get run without even flinching. I know it was a deleted scene but still.....a-holes.
The rules in that galaxy are harsh compared to the ones in Star Trek. So...

[Len Ikari145]

They were, indeed, pretty morally ambigous in the movies.

I personally felt like the tack that Lucas took in the new movies was friggin retarded. Emotions = Dark. No-emotion = Good?

Right. So with no emotions, you get uncaring, cold and detached Jedi who really aren't doing anyone much good. I remember the Jedi in the old trilogy, and they weren't like that. They were warm and compassionate, and they cared about people, and had senses of humor. They weren't dull brainwashed pawns.

There's also the whole 'no relationships' deal.

Thank god Luke fixed up the Order in the EU books

[Peter]

They were, indeed, pretty morally ambigous in the movies.

I personally felt like the tack that Lucas took in the new movies was friggin retarded. Emotions = Dark. No-emotion = Good?

I never understood the dilemma the Emperor was 'forcing' Luke into in that final scene in the third movie.

"Wait, so, lemme see if I've got this right. If I sit here and do nothing while you murder countless millions of people, that's okay. But if I react to the death of pretty much everybody I know in any way whatsoever, including trying to stop you from killing them, that's bad?"

"A-yup."

"...who the f*ck made these rules? Screw you asshole." *zorch*

At least, that's what I would've done.

[SuperSaiyaMan12]

There's also the whole 'no relationships' deal.

Thank god Luke fixed up the Order in the EU books
Well, in the EU, Jedi were allowed to marry and have relationships(waaay back in the past), I mean, there were Jedi who married who weren't threatened with Order Explusion(Jolee Bindo for example).

[GrampaGen]

I never understood the dilemma the Emperor was 'forcing' Luke into in that final scene in the third movie.

"Wait, so, lemme see if I've got this right. If I sit here and do nothing while you murder countless millions of people, that's okay. But if I react to the death of pretty much everybody I know in any way whatsoever, including trying to stop you from killing them, that's bad?"

"A-yup."

"...who the f*ck made these rules? Screw you asshole." *zorch*

At least, that's what I would've done.
well that is pretty much what he did, but I like your version better :cool:

[kkraven]

Even though the Jedi weren't paragons of Light, Truth, and Justice in the movies, they were still looking out for the Republic. They don't do mass genocides. They protect the weak. They don't create abominations. They are not the like the Sith.

I'm not really insisting that they are actually like the Sith but they can be less than honorable and forthright. Letting Shaakti die without moving was just ridiculous.

[SuperSaiyaMan12]

I never understood the dilemma the Emperor was 'forcing' Luke into in that final scene in the third movie.

"Wait, so, lemme see if I've got this right. If I sit here and do nothing while you murder countless millions of people, that's okay. But if I react to the death of pretty much everybody I know in any way whatsoever, including trying to stop you from killing them, that's bad?"

"A-yup."

"...who the f*ck made these rules? Screw you asshole." *zorch*

At least, that's what I would've done.
That is what Revan and Malak basically did.

[SuperSaiyaMan12]

I'm not really insisting that they are actually like the Sith but they can be less than honorable and forthright. Letting Shaakti die without moving was just ridiculous.
Wasn't Shaakti ambushed by Vader though? While deep in meditation, she was stabbed threw the heart?

[Super Samurai]

I sorta see Jedi as politicians, though not the really bad ones.

[Peter]

That is what Revan and Malak basically did.

I'm not a fan, I don't actually know who those people are...

:(

;)

[Jagatai_Khan]

There's also the whole 'no relationships' deal.

With the Sith, the no-relationships thing makes sense. Each Sith is supposed to stand alone and be totally self-sufficient. Relationships are a weakness that could be taken advantage of by an enemy. So pretty much that limits your sexual options as a Sith to one-night-stands, or rape. (or some combination of both)

Of course, it's still stupid that there aren't any Force-users that, rather than following either of these two *very* extreme philosophies, didn't simply strike out on thier own and use the Force for thier own interests, or even just form some kind of third school of thought that viewed the Force as simply a tool, like electricity.

[Super Samurai]

I'm not a fan, I don't actually know who those people are...

:(

;)
They are from KOTOR the videogame.

[SuperSaiyaMan12]

I'm not a fan, I don't actually know who those people are...

:(

;)
Revan and Malak(who became Darth Revan and Darth Malak) were two Jedi Knights who couldn't ignore the Mandalorians slaughtering people on the Outer Rim. So, they took a contingent of Jedi Knights, a few Masters, and a lot of Padawans, and aided the Republic. The bad thing is, both Revan and Malak fell to the Dark Side.

[Chou Blaster]

The way I see it.

The Jedi and Sith are reflections of each other.

Jedi: Due to being confined by rules, and well trying to devleop a great sens eof morality.. Have the "HOlier than art." dickery. ANd in general had dickery rules.


Sith; They pretty much cut loose in their emotions. But in doing so powe rmad, and basicly do what they like (Though toward badder things.)


So when I saw the Jedi/Sith in the Prequel tirology.

I saw it as a match of two evils. In one way or another.

[Jagatai_Khan]

Revan and Malak(who became Darth Revan and Darth Malak) were two Jedi Knights who couldn't ignore the Mandalorians slaughtering people on the Outer Rim. So, they took a contingent of Jedi Knights, a few Masters, and a lot of Padawans, and aided the Republic. The bad thing is, both Revan and Malak fell to the Dark Side.

They fell to the Dark Side because they found the Star Forge. not because they fought the Mandalorians.

[Peter]

The bad thing is, both Revan and Malak fell to the Dark Side.

I hope there's a lot more to their story than simply, "Reacting to something bad -- and not standing around doing nothing -- turns you evil."

Because that kind of message is decidedly unheroic.

[SuperSaiyaMan12]

They fell to the Dark Side because they found the Star Forge. not because they fought the Mandalorians.
Wrong. They fell to the Dark Side on Malachor V. Revan was either kidnapped by Sith Assassins and brought to the Trayus Academy, or he found it on his own. The bottom line was he fell to the Dark Side there, in the heart of the Trayus Core.

[GrampaGen]

Obi Wan: Anakin, Chancellor Palpatine is evil!
Anakin: from my point of view the JEDI are evil!
Obi Wan: Then you are LOST!

Obi Wan fails at debate and Anakin fails at opinions :p

[SuperSaiyaMan12]

I hope there's a lot more to their story than simply, "Reacting to something bad -- and not standing around doing nothing -- turns you evil."

Because that kind of message is decidedly unheroic.
On Malachor, they faced the Power of the Sith, the Dark Side, and Revan's only conclusion to fight the powerful Sith was to fall to the Dark Side himself, and fight the Old Sith Empire with a New One.

[Peter]

well that is pretty much what he did, but I like your version better :cool:

Thank you. I just never really got the climactic-sense of that scene. The emperor is hitting him with some kind of moral dilemma, except it isn't a dilemma and the black-and-white of it is pretty darn obvious.

"You wanted to goad me into acting violently by threatening the people I love? Guess what, sunshine? Your plan worked!" *smack*

[GrampaGen]

Damn does every star wars thread with the mention of "evil" or "sith" always have to turn into KOTOR discussion?

[nervmeister]

The Jedi aren't evil. They're just hypocrites.

[Chevan]

Wrong. They fell to the Dark Side on Malachor V. Revan was either kidnapped by Sith Assassins and brought to the Trayus Academy, or he found it on his own. The bottom line was he fell to the Dark Side there, in the heart of the Trayus Core.

From the looks of it, Jagatai_Khan is operating from one of two positions: 1. He hasn't played TSL, or 2. He's ignoring TSL's storyline entirely (I wouldn't blame him, actually).

The Jedi aren't evil. They're just hypocrites.

A-men to that.

[SuperSaiyaMan12]

Obi Wan: Anakin, Chancellor Palpatine is evil!
Anakin: from my point of view the JEDI are evil!
Obi Wan: Then you are LOST!

Obi Wan fails at debate and Anakin fails at opinions :p
How Obi-wan should have countered Anakin:

Obi-wan: Anakin, the Sith are evil!
Anakin: From my point of view, the Jedi are evil!
Obi-Wan: How many people have the Sith saved?
Anakin: What?
Obi-wan: Have the Jedi every slaughtered innocent people?
Anakin: Well...um...no...
Obi-wan: Have the Jedi ever created abominations of the Force?
Anakin: ...no...
Obi-wan: Then who is evil, Anakin?
Anakin: Palpatine...and the Sith...

[Peter]

On Malachor, they faced the Power of the Sith, the Dark Side, and Revan's only conclusion to fight the powerful Sith was to fall to the Dark Side himself, and fight the Old Sith Empire with a New One.

So instead of "reacting to something bad is evil", we have "evil is more powerful and your only hope is to join up, rather than beat it on your own terms".

Can't say that's any better.

[SuperSaiyaMan12]

From the looks of it, Jagatai_Khan is operating from one of two positions: 1. He hasn't played TSL, or 2. He's ignoring TSL's storyline entirely (I wouldn't blame him, actually).
The Sith Lords had a better storyline than KOTOR I, but the ending sucked due to the fact that LucasArts rushed Obisidian Entertainment.

[Ant Crown]

How Obi-wan should have countered Anakin:

Obi-wan: Anakin, the Sith are evil!
Anakin: From my point of view, the Jedi are evil!
Obi-Wan: How many people have the Sith saved?
Anakin: What?
Obi-wan: Have the Jedi every slaughtered innocent people?
Anakin: Well...um...no...
Obi-wan: Have the Jedi ever created abominations of the Force?
Anakin: ...no...
Obi-wan: Then who is evil, Anakin?
Anakin: Palpatine...and the Sith...
Anakin you just got pwned.

[Chou Blaster]

The Jedi aren't evil. They're just hypocrites.


Yeah your' right. My bad.

As in 3. The Jeid wer epretty much consdiering taking over the Republic their damn selves. (Sur ethe Chancellor wa sa dick, but over runnnig the People your' protecting/ Including the Senate? Madness.)

[SuperSaiyaMan12]

So instead of "reacting to something bad is evil", we have "evil is more powerful and your only hope is to join up, rather than beat it on your own terms".

Can't say that's any better.
Kreia said Revan didn't fall though. If Revan did truly fall, he'd have became a monster like Sion and Malak. Revan did show mercy during the first few years of the Jedi Civil War(before Malak betrayed him).

[Peter]

How Obi-wan should have countered Anakin:

Obi-wan: Anakin, the Sith are evil!
Anakin: From my point of view, the Jedi are evil!
Obi-Wan: How many people have the Sith saved?
Anakin: What?
Obi-wan: Have the Jedi every slaughtered innocent people?
Anakin: Well...um...no...
Obi-wan: Have the Jedi ever created abominations of the Force?
Anakin: ...no...
Obi-wan: Then who is evil, Anakin?
Anakin: Palpatine...and the Sith...

Or Obi-wan could've simply pointed out who it was who was actively trying to kill Anakin's girlfriend for the first two movies, but that would've taken longer, I suppose.

[Bruce Wayne Jr.]

The EU and the newer movie stuff has given me the impression that Star Wars is a big fat analogy for life. The Jedi and Sith drive home the notion that "absolute power corrupts absolutely", in that these are two factions who can wield incredible power, but in the end really don't know what to do with it. The greatest Jedi masters (Qui-Gon, in particular) transcend the doctrine in order to be fully compassionate and more well rounded.

You could say that none of them are truly evil, simply misguided. It's all philosophy.

[Donald Stone]

One of the really good things about the the ROTS novel was it covered some stuff the movie skipped, among them being Yoda's revelation about the Jedi.

During his fight with Palpatine, Yoda brings everything he has, all his power and training, and realizes thats its not enough. Its there that he sees his mistake. He's been training Jedi these last 800 years in the same way that he was trained, so that they could fight as the Sith like the Jedi of old did. but what he failed to see was that the galaxy changed. The Sith changed. But the Jedi didn't change, because Yoda didn't let them. they became more focused on rules and traditions and not about following the will of the Force. Thats why the Council was always so down on Qui Gonn, they didn't see that he was doing what a Jedi should do, listen to the Force, not worry about some old traditions. Thats why Qui gonn was the Jedi who figured out how to become one with the Force, and thats why he was able to come back and teach Yoda and Obi Wo.

[Peter]

You could say that none of them are truly evil, simply misguided.

Like the time Vader nuked a planet, he was just misguided?

You *could* say that, but I wouldn't.

[Ant Crown]

The EU and the newer movie stuff has given me the impression that Star Wars is a big fat analogy for life. The Jedi and Sith drive home the notion that "absolute power corrupts absolutely", in that these are two factions who can wield incredible power, but in the end really don't know what to do with it. The greatest Jedi masters (Qui-Gon, in particular) transcend the doctrine in order to be fully compassionate and more well rounded.

You could say that none of them are truly evil, simply misguided. It's all philosophy.
I'm know not to say this but we are all thinking it...EVANGELION in the SWU has happened.

RUN

[Radical]

I remember the Jedi in the old trilogy, and they weren't like that. They were warm and compassionate, and they cared about people, and had senses of humor. They weren't dull brainwashed pawns.

If you'll recall, the Jedi as an order were pretty much decimated. Obi-Wan/"Ben" and Yoda were pretty much the only ones left until Luke came along.

And when you take into account that the new trilogy are prequels, I'd say they learned from their mistakes.

[Oxymoron]

Anakin: If you're not with me, you're my enemy!
Obi-Wan: Only a Sith deals with absolutes! Only a Sith! Jedi never deal with absolutes! Every single Sith deals with absolutes 100% of the time, no exceptions! You must be a Sith, since you used an absolute statement! I would never use an absolute statement!
Anakin: Really? Uh... the sky is blue!
Obi-Wan: Another absolute! You are truly lost! I will do what I must!

No comment.

[Chevan]

The Sith Lords had a better storyline than KOTOR I, but the ending sucked due to the fact that LucasArts rushed Obisidian Entertainment.

That still doesn't excuse the fact that the end product was full of plotholes, missing content, and unused dialogue locked on the disc.

[nervmeister]

"The Jedi are compassionite and merciful."

Yeah I guess that's why Obiwan decided to hack off Anakin's arms and legs and let him roll down a hill like a ragdoll to die a slow, painful death. That's the light side of the force for ya.

[Jagatai_Khan]

Wrong. They fell to the Dark Side on Malachor V. Revan was either kidnapped by Sith Assassins and brought to the Trayus Academy, or he found it on his own. The bottom line was he fell to the Dark Side there, in the heart of the Trayus Core.

You're right. I'd forgotten that tidbit during KOTOR 2.

Still, though, the point is that it wasn't simply fighting a war that turned them to the Dark Side. It was something else that actively was trying to convert them.

What we're getting at here is that reacting to evil, and even fighting it, is not an inherently Dark Side thing to do.

[kkraven]

Yeah I guess that's why Obiwan decided to hack off Anakin's arms and legs and let him roll down a hill like a ragdoll to die a slow, painful death. That's the light side of the force for ya.

It was self defense, but he is still a dick.

[Jagatai_Khan]

From the looks of it, Jagatai_Khan is operating from one of two positions: 1. He hasn't played TSL, or 2. He's ignoring TSL's storyline entirely (I wouldn't blame him, actually).
.

I have played The Sith Lords, all the way through. I admit that I didn't like it, or it's story, as much as KOTOR 1, nor did I pay attention as closely when all the pseudo-philosophy was being discussed during the ultra-long conversation/cutscenes.

Honestly, I skipped alot of Traya's dialouge entirely at points durign that game, because I got so sick and disgusted at the sight of her after a while, and kept wishing there was an option for the Exile to just friggin *kill her* already, since anybody with half a brain could tell that she's a Sith from the moment she shows up and starts talking.

[nervmeister]

It was self defense, but he is still a dick.Despite it being self-defense, you would think that a noble compassionate Jedi would offer a quicker, less painful demise!

[MKTerra]

Like the time Vader nuked a planet, he was just misguided?

You *could* say that, but I wouldn't.Hmm, which planet was that? All I remember at the moment is Alderaan, but Tarkin ordered that one...

[Radical]

Anakin: If you're not with me, you're my enemy!
Obi-Wan: Only a Sith deals with absolutes! Only a Sith! Jedi never deal with absolutes! Every single Sith deals with absolutes 100% of the time, no exceptions! You must be a Sith, since you used an absolute statement! I would never use an absolute statement!
Anakin: Really? Uh... the sky is blue!
Obi-Wan: Another absolute! You are truly lost! I will do what I must!

No comment.

Why would that make a really funny Flash movie?

[Peter]

It was self defense, but he is still a dick.

"This high ground adds a +4 to my defence!"

(nods to Blair for that one)

[Jagatai_Khan]

You could say that none of them are truly evil, simply misguided. It's all philosophy.

Gah, sophistry. Spare us the drivel.

Evil is self-evident when observed. You can call it "misguided" all day long. However, when a person displays wanton disregard for human life, takes pleasure in seeing innocents die, is willing to wreck the lives of others for thier goals, and in general is a sadistic murdering bastard... they're evil.

And, yes, I know this definition results in a great many of modern-day politicians being labeled as Evil.

[Jagatai_Khan]

"The Jedi are compassionite and merciful."

Who are you quoting? Nobody here uttered any such words.

I mentioned that the Jedi in the *old movies* were compassionate. Not the new movies.

Straw Man. Put it away.

[Chevan]

I have played The Sith Lords, all the way through. I admit that I didn't like it, or it's story, as much as KOTOR 1, nor did I pay attention as closely when all the pseudo-philosophy was being discussed during the ultra-long conversation/cutscenes.

Honestly, I skipped alot of Traya's dialouge entirely at points durign that game, because I got so sick and disgusted at the sight of her after a while, and kept wishing there was an option for the Exile to just friggin *kill her* already, since anybody with half a brain could tell that she's a Sith from the moment she shows up and starts talking.

Sorry, then, shouldn't have assumed.

And I can definitely sympathize with the anti-Kreia sentiment.

[nervmeister]

Who are you quoting? Nobody here uttered any such words.

I mentioned that the Jedi in the *old movies* were compassionate. Not the new movies.

Straw Man. Put it away.Well that's the general idea I get everytime the Jedi start spouting off their goddam lectures about "their Jedi ways".

[lonewolf23k]

Webcomic Author Ralph Hayes (of Goblin Hollow, Nip and Tuck and Tales of the Questor) is convinced the Jedi are evil bastards as well..

See here (http://utlt.keenspace.com/d/20050610.html):

"What is it with you people and Darth Vader anyway? Darth was the Villain! Don't you know the Jedi were the Good Guys?"
"Oh, you mean those good guys who nabbed children from all over the galaxy to raise in their religious cult, exploited an entire race of lobotomized clones as cannon fodder, plotted an assassination attempt and whose greates hero stood and watched while his Padawan burned alive like a toasted Marshmallow?
"...As you were."
"Thank you. Now if you'll excuse me, I have some Rebel Scum to crush."

And be sure to start with the Young'ens, kiddo. Frankly, I find all of those arguments to be a pile of lob-sided BS.. The author also thinks the Jedi were scum for trying to overthrow their government, for denying Anakin his "natural urges" and not giving him any options, for using brainwashing techniques, etc..

...of course, he completly neglects the fact that the Sith were at the cause root of many of the above problems which forced the Jedi to make difficult choices...

[The MunchKING]

I never understood the dilemma the Emperor was 'forcing' Luke into in that final scene in the third movie.

"Wait, so, lemme see if I've got this right. If I sit here and do nothing while you murder countless millions of people, that's okay. But if I react to the death of pretty much everybody I know in any way whatsoever, including trying to stop you from killing them, that's bad?"

"A-yup."

"...who the f*ck made these rules? Screw you asshole." *zorch*

At least, that's what I would've done.

Well it wasn't the "stopping him" so much as the "hate and anger" that would have done it. And the point was the Emporer had tried to set it up to where he couldn't do it and NOT Hate the Emporer's guts, and Possibly Vader's.


THAT's why the acting upon it was supposed to be bad, not the acting in and of itself...

[Bruce Wayne Jr.]

Gah, sophistry. Spare us the drivel.

Evil is self-evident when observed. You can call it "misguided" all day long. However, when a person displays wanton disregard for human life, takes pleasure in seeing innocents die, is willing to wreck the lives of others for thier goals, and in general is a sadistic murdering bastard... they're evil.

And, yes, I know this definition results in a great many of modern-day politicians being labeled as Evil.

I'm not gonna argue philosophy with you, but I am convinced the point I made is one of the underlying themes of the franchise, whether you agree with it or not.

[nervmeister]

At least the Sith were keepin it real.

[T-1000]

They were, indeed, pretty morally ambigous in the movies.

I personally felt like the tack that Lucas took in the new movies was friggin retarded. Emotions = Dark. No-emotion = Good?

Right. So with no emotions, you get uncaring, cold and detached Jedi who really aren't doing anyone much good. I remember the Jedi in the old trilogy, and they weren't like that. They were warm and compassionate, and they cared about people, and had senses of humor. They weren't dull brainwashed pawns.

I get the feeling that was part of the balance that the Anakin was supposed to be restoring to the force. The Jedi order had become arrogant, more than a little corrupt... they just had to go before they really did try to seize control of the government.

[Peter]

...of course, he completly neglects the fact that the Sith were at the cause root of many of the above problems which forced the Jedi to make difficult choices...

He's got a point, though. Like everybody else is saying, the Jedi don't actually come across as the good guys.



THAT's why the acting upon it was supposed to be bad, not the acting in and of itself...

Yeah, but who cares about your motivation if you're saving, what, how many millions of sentient life-forms were living on that moon?

Still don't get it.

[Ant Crown]

I'm not gonna argue philosophy with you, but I am convinced the point I made is one of the underlying themes of the franchise, whether you agree with it or not.
I happen to be out of town and still running...Nothing worse than having Evangelion in the same residence as you are without driven out of your mind.

[lonewolf23k]

He's got a point, though. Like everybody else is saying, the Jedi don't actually come across as the good guys.

They did to me. It's just that they got backed into such a corner, they ended up having to compromise their honor just to keep up with the Sith, which led them to their downfall.

Still, most of those negative actions were actually a result of the Sith's conspiracy. Using an army of brainwashed Clones to fight off Seperatists? Hey, turns out Head Sith Baddy is the one who talked the seperatists into starting the civil war, and tricked you into getting that brainwashed clone army to fight them...

No fair blaming them for it when it's all the Sith's fault..

[nervmeister]

They did to me. It's just that they got backed into such a corner, they ended up having to compromise their honor just to keep up with the Sith, which led them to their downfall.

Still, most of those negative actions were actually a result of the Sith's conspiracy. Using an army of brainwashed Clones to fight off Seperatists? Hey, turns out Head Sith Baddy is the one who talked the seperatists into starting the civil war, and tricked you into getting that brainwashed clone army to fight them...

No fair blaming them for it when it's all the Sith's fault..Yes, the Sith made the Jedi do it. (sarcastic)

[Radical]

Yes, the Sith made the Jedi do it. (sarcastic)

Exactly. :mad:

[lonewolf23k]

Yes, the Sith made the Jedi do it. (sarcastic)

Isn't it true, though? The whole darn civil war was a Sith conspiracy, engineered by Darth Sidious as a smokescreen to cover his grasping of power in the Republic Senate and to wittle down the Jedi until they couldn't stop his military takeover and his converting of one of the Jedi's most powerful young members.

Please, tell me what can't be eventually traced back to a part of Sidious' plotting..

[nervmeister]

So are you saying that the Jedi are 100% not responsible for their own actions? :evilangry

[MKTerra]

"This high ground adds a +4 to my defence!"

(nods to Blair for that one)Hehe :p

Incidentally, it has been pointed out that Maul had the high ground against Obi-Wan in Phantom Menace, right? Wonder how that works out thematically...

[Nate Grey]

Anakin: If you're not with me, you're my enemy!
Obi-Wan: Only a Sith deals with absolutes! Only a Sith! Jedi never deal with absolutes! Every single Sith deals with absolutes 100% of the time, no exceptions! You must be a Sith, since you used an absolute statement! I would never use an absolute statement!
Anakin: Really? Uh... the sky is blue!
Obi-Wan: Another absolute! You are truly lost! I will do what I must!

No comment.

From Twisted Toyfare Theater, when Spidey and Hulk went to go see Episode III:

Obi-Wan: I loved you like a brother, Anakin!
Anakin: Then please kill me Obi-Wan! This pain is unbearable!
Obi-Wan: *turning to leave* Only a Sith thinks in absolutes.

[lonewolf23k]

So are you saying that the Jedi are 100% not responsible for their own actions? :evilangry

I'm saying the Jedi were tricked into doing some questionable things by the Real villain of the movie.

[Zeta]

Incidentally, it has been pointed out that Maul had the high ground against Obi-Wan in Phantom Menace, right? Wonder how that works out thematically...

Obi-Wan rolls natural 20s.

[Bruce Wayne Jr.]

I love this quote from the upcoming Darth Vader novel.

"They hadn't realised that Palpatine had manipulated the war; that a Sith occupied the throne; that like everyone else, the Jedi had failed to grasp a truth that should have been evident years earlier: the Republic had never been worth fighting for.
The ideals of democracy hadn't been stamped out by Palpatine. The Jedi had carried out missions of dubious merit for any number of Supreme Chancellors, but always in the name of safeguarding peace and justice. What they failed to undrstand was that the Senate, the Coruscanti, the citizens of countless world and star systems, grown weary of the old system, had allowed democracy to die. And in a galaxy where the goal was single-minded control from the top, and wherein the end justified the means, the Jedi had no place.
That had been the final revenge of the Sith." - Obi-Wan Kenobi, post ROTS

And I agree with you lonewolf23k in that a lot of the Jedi's stumbles were in response to Sith actions. Although, for the record, it was Jedi Sifo-Diyas who comissioned the clone army, behind the back of the council. Palpatine and Dooku capitalized on it, and used it against them.

[Peter]

They did to me. It's just that they got backed into such a corner, they ended up having to compromise their honor just to keep up with the Sith, which led them to their downfall.

Still, most of those negative actions were actually a result of the Sith's conspiracy. Using an army of brainwashed Clones to fight off Seperatists? Hey, turns out Head Sith Baddy is the one who talked the seperatists into starting the civil war, and tricked you into getting that brainwashed clone army to fight them...

No fair blaming them for it when it's all the Sith's fault..

Valid points, but that only holds true up to a point.

What about the 'no emotion' thing, or the rigid set of rules in terms of raising somebody to be a Jedi?

Both of these things have nothing whatsoever to do with the Sith.

[Captain Sarcasm]

Right. So with no emotions, you get uncaring, cold and detached Jedi who really aren't doing anyone much good. I remember the Jedi in the old trilogy, and they weren't like that. They were warm and compassionate, and they cared about people, and had senses of humor. They weren't dull brainwashed pawns.

Yeah, that was what we call the "Point." That the Jedi had become arrogant and corrupted and pretty much deserved their downfall.

[Captain Sarcasm]

Thank you. I just never really got the climactic-sense of that scene. The emperor is hitting him with some kind of moral dilemma, except it isn't a dilemma and the black-and-white of it is pretty darn obvious.

"You wanted to goad me into acting violently by threatening the people I love? Guess what, sunshine? Your plan worked!" *smack*

That would turn you to the Dark Side because you attacked in anger. The proper Jedi thing to do would be to try and convert him to the light, like Luke did to Vader or to wait until he attacks you and then retalliate in self-defense, like Vader did to the emperor. If Luke had succeeded in killing him, he'd have just become another emperor.

[Captain Sarcasm]

So instead of "reacting to something bad is evil", we have "evil is more powerful and your only hope is to join up, rather than beat it on your own terms".

Can't say that's any better.

Actually, you can't say that any worse.

Revan's plan was to save the galaxy by conquering it. He used a mythical weapons-production plant to give himself an almost infinite numerical advantage over the Republic, avoided attacking centers of industry or population, converted Jedi to his side and tactically won his battles in the most efficient way possible. If he had won, the New Sith Empire would be strong enough to defeat the Old, and if he had lost, the Republic would be strong enough. If he hadn't done so, they'd both be crushed.

He reacted to a bad situation in the best way possible.

[Captain Sarcasm]

That still doesn't excuse the fact that the end product was full of plotholes, missing content, and unused dialogue locked on the disc.

Yeah. Yeah it does. The creative people were forced to release an incomplete product by the corporate people. It's not their fault.

[cactusmaac]

Valid points, but that only holds true up to a point.

What about the 'no emotion' thing, or the rigid set of rules in terms of raising somebody to be a Jedi?

Both of these things have nothing whatsoever to do with the Sith.

I don't sympathise with this POV at all.

The Jedi eschew emotion and have lots of rules in place and therefore they're EVIL!

Given how powerful Force-users are, how easily power corrupts and how much damage the Sith and their ilk had done to the Republic in the past, wouldn't it make sense to ensure that Jedi are given huge amounts of training from a very early age and are subject to a lot of constraints to make sure they don't fall to the Dark Side?

Wouldn't it make sense for them to emphasise that a Jedi should aim for the highest possible level of serenity and calmness and avoid situations which would lead to jealousy, pain, envy and hate?

After all, how many people here have done stupid things they've regretted when angry and pissed off?

Judging from how few Dark Jedi were running around in the prequel times, it does seem that the Jedi's methods were actually quite effective in minimising corruption in their ranks.

After all the objections of those who didn't want Anakin joining the Jedi were borne out. His prior relationship with his mother put him on the first step to the Dark Side and his fear for Padme's safety led him to betray the Jedi.

As for Luke and the Emperor, I thought what happened was pretty obvious. The Emperor was goading him into using fear and anger to strike down Darth Vader. Sidious knew Luke was not nearly powerful enough to be a danger to him and was trying to turn him to the Dark Side.

[Peter]

That would turn you to the Dark Side because you attacked in anger.

Which means we're back to reacting = bad. Which is silly, and certainly unheroic.

The proper Jedi thing to do would be to... wait until he attacks you and then retalliate in self-defense, like Vader did to the emperor.

And if that first attack succeeded, you'd be dead, and the moon full of millions of sentients would be floating dust particles.

Plan A still sounds better. As you just said, if *that's* the proper Jedi way, then no wonder they were all killed like rabbits.

If Luke had succeeded in killing him, he'd have just become another emperor.

And this sounds wholly ridiculous.

So it's predestined that if even the *slightest* amount of negative-emotion enters into a Jedi's thinking, he/she automatically becomes a megalomaniac with a penchant for slaughtering babies?

I'm sorry but no way. That's forcing people to reach -- and continue to stay at, for 110% of the time -- a completely fantastic level of righteousness/zen/good karma/whatever.

[Captain Sarcasm]

Yeah, but who cares about your motivation if you're saving, what, how many millions of sentient life-forms were living on that moon?

Still don't get it.

Okay... Let's say that every Force-User has two batteries for Force - A Light battery and a Dark battery. Their total force is divided between them.

Now, the emotions a Jedi feels charge up those batteries, but they don't actually transfer the Force until a Jedi acts on them. If you're slightly bitter at someone, that would only charge the Dark Side by a miniscule amount, and if you act on that, by making a sarcastic comment or something, that would fill that miniscule amount of charge with Force.

When you're face-to-face with the dark overlord that's been giving you so much crap for the past three movies AND has a giant gun pointed at pretty much every living person you've ever cared about AND was personally responsible for turning your Father over to the Dark Side... you are fucking pissed. Also, as you get stronger in the Light Side, all your Dark Side actions do more karmic damage. Acting on that much anger would have probably shifted him completly to the Dark, and he and Vader *would* have Ruled The Galaxy As Father And Son.

Providing that they left each other alive.

[Peter]

I don't sympathise with this POV at all.

The Jedi eschew emotion and have lots of rules in place and therefore they're EVIL!

I read my post three times but I'm pretty sure I didn't say that.

As I said responding to Captain Sarcasm, it looks like the Jedi have a recruitment policy which forces their members to reach something that is simpluy unobtainable -- how many people in this thread, on this *planet*, would never react to anything with any kind of negative emotion at all? -- by enforcing its members to be cold and aloof.

It might not be evil, but it was still wrong.

And hell, aren't those the reasons we *got* Anakin throwing a galactic-sized tantrum anyway? Maybe without those things, the kid would've been a lot more adjusted and wouldn't have ended up killing pretty much everybody.

Given how powerful Force-users are, how easily power corrupts and how much damage the Sith and their ilk had done to the Republic in the past, wouldn't it make sense to ensure that Jedi are given huge amounts of training from a very early age and are subject to a lot of constraints to make sure they don't fall to the Dark Side?

When falling to the Dark Side requires a tiny split second of negative emotion to enter your thinking, you are *guaranteeing* that a heck of a lot of people aren't gonna make a pass grade, right from the get-go.

[Peter]

Okay... Let's say that every Force-User has two batteries for Force - A Light battery and a Dark battery. Their total force is divided between them.

Now, the emotions a Jedi feels charge up those batteries, but they don't actually transfer the Force until a Jedi acts on them. If you're slightly bitter at someone, that would only charge the Dark Side by a miniscule amount, and if you act on that, by making a sarcastic comment or something, that would fill that miniscule amount of charge with Force.

When you're face-to-face with the dark overlord that's been giving you so much crap for the past three movies AND has a giant gun pointed at pretty much every living person you've ever cared about AND was personally responsible for turning your Father over to the Dark Side... you are fucking pissed.

And refusing to act when a gun is pointed at "pretty much every living person you've ever cared about", because you might be doing it for the wrong reasons?

I can't be the only person who sees the silliness inherent in that, right?

[Captain Sarcasm]

Valid points, but that only holds true up to a point.

What about the 'no emotion' thing, or the rigid set of rules in terms of raising somebody to be a Jedi?

Both of these things have nothing whatsoever to do with the Sith.

Okay, Peter... say that there's someone you love. Someone you love more than life itself and would do anything in the universe for.

Now say that Darth Blahdeblah kidnaps that person and slowly murders him with force lightning, video tapes it, and then mails you the tape. You would be pretty fucking pissed, wouldn't you?

And that's exactly the kind of shit that the Sith would not hesitate for an instant to pull.

I'm not saying it's the best system, just that it could be a lot worse.

[Captain Sarcasm]

Which means we're back to reacting = bad. Which is silly, and certainly unheroic.

No, reatcing = good. Acting out of anger = bad. If Palpy had drawn a lightsaber, Luke could have reacted in direct self-defense, but, as it stood, there was no way out of that without murdering a helpless old man.

And if that first attack succeeded, you'd be dead, and the moon full of millions of sentients would be floating dust particles.

Plan A still sounds better. As you just said, if *that's* the proper Jedi way, then no wonder they were all killed like rabbits.

But if you attack him and fail, the result is no different than if he had attacked you and succeeded. Plan A is no better or worse.

And this sounds wholly ridiculous.

So it's predestined that if even the *slightest* amount of negative-emotion enters into a Jedi's thinking, he/she automatically becomes a megalomaniac with a penchant for slaughtering babies?

No, just when they act on that anger. There's another post a bit further down about that.

I'm sorry but no way. That's forcing people to reach -- and continue to stay at, for 110% of the time -- a completely fantastic level of righteousness/zen/good karma/whatever.

These guys are people that spend their entire lives synching their auras up with the permeating wavelength of the universe. Once you're on the light side, it becomes easier to stay there, however if you shift to the dark side, you shift *hard*.

[Captain Sarcasm]

And refusing to act when a gun is pointed at "pretty much every living person you've ever cared about", because you might be doing it for the wrong reasons?

I can't be the only person who sees the silliness inherent in that, right?

If you attack a man with his finger on the trigger, he's gonna pull it. The best thing to do in a situation like that is to try and convice him to drop the gun.

[cactusmaac]

It might not be evil, but it was still wrong.

It still worked.


And hell, aren't those the reasons we *got* Anakin throwing a galactic-sized tantrum anyway? Maybe without those things, the kid would've been a lot more adjusted and wouldn't have ended up killing pretty much everybody.

Or he might have fallen a lot earlier.

The Dark Side and Light Side have something of a different nature to regular human emotion.

It's a corrupting influence that makes you more and more susceptible to evil the longer you use it, like a crack addict.

Also it's not anger in itself that leads to the Dark Side since if you see Obi Wan duelling with Maul, it is pretty evident that he's pretty pissed off at the death of Qui-Gon. It's allowing your mental state to knowingly give youself over to the Dark Side.

Witness Anakin as he first reacts in horror to what he did to Mace and grudgingly becomes a Sith out of fear and desperation. Then see him talk to Obi Wan on Mustafar where he's fully bought into the whole Dark Side program and is acting as a mouthpiece for Sidious' views.

If Luke had knowingly given in to the Dark Side when on the Death Star, he'd have been on that path o evil.

edit: He had no reason to kill Vader out of self-defence since at that stage, he was easily dominating their battle. He could have killed him if he wanted but he would only have killed him if he'd turned to the Dark Side. Which is what the Emperor and Vader were trying to do, the Emperor offering him power and glory by offering him Vader's job, goading him by gloating over how the Rebels were dying and DV by threatening to convert Leia.

[lonewolf23k]

And I agree with you lonewolf23k in that a lot of the Jedi's stumbles were in response to Sith actions. Although, for the record, it was Jedi Sifo-Diyas who comissioned the clone army, behind the back of the council. Palpatine and Dooku capitalized on it, and used it against them.

I wouldn't be so sure.. ...Just because the Kaminoans say they were hired by a Jedi doesn't mean they couldn't have been fooled by a Sith, or that if it had been a Jedi, that he wasn't being manipulated or corrupted by Sidious in the first place.

...After all, Jango Fett was working for the Sith...

[Captain Sarcasm]

As I said responding to Captain Sarcasm, it looks like the Jedi have a recruitment policy which forces their members to reach something that is simpluy unobtainable -- how many people in this thread, on this *planet*, would never react to anything with any kind of negative emotion at all? -- by enforcing its members to be cold and aloof.

Most people on this planet aren't lifetime members of a monastic order that have been trained to align themselves with the happiness mojo of the universe.

When falling to the Dark Side requires a tiny split second of negative emotion to enter your thinking, you are *guaranteeing* that a heck of a lot of people aren't gonna make a pass grade, right from the get-go.

It takes more than that. First, it takes a lot of negative emotion, and second, you have to *act* on that negative emotion. If you have negative emotions and get over them, you become *stronger* in the Light side.

[Valmore]

I think you'll find your answer to this in Jolee Bindo from KOTOR - the Grey Jedi.

Basically, neither side has it correctly. The Jedi believe themselves to be selfless, and even if they usually are, it does tend to lead them to a stuffy arrogance in that their way is correct, and all other ways are wrong and lead to the dark side. That you can't act on emotions ever, and in that they basically have a flawed sense of logic.

The Sith are generally those prone to tending to only their own needs, and not caring about the needs of others in certain degrees. That helping others makes them weak. Might makes right, and all others should either step aside or get trampled on. Not exactly the best mindset, either.

Jolee Bindo, ex-Jedi but non-Sith, has a balance of both sides - he's not completely selfish like a Sith, but he doesn't adhere to the idea that acting on your emotions in certain degrees is a bad thing. That sometimes, it's okay to look out for No. 1, but other times, it makes more sense to act selflessly.

Kind of like... Ryu-Ken-Akuma. :p

[cactusmaac]

Were the Jedi in the prequels particularly arrogant?

I didn't get the sense that they were, except for Dooku and Anakin.

[Valmore]

Hehe :p

Incidentally, it has been pointed out that Maul had the high ground against Obi-Wan in Phantom Menace, right? Wonder how that works out thematically...

Obi-Wan has "pwned" status. In fact, he never really lost to Darth Vader in Episode 4 - he simply decided that it was time to "Become One With the Force" just before Vader hit him with his lightsaber. Because he's that much of a bastard, he even denied Anakin the chance to kill him at the exact moment he was going to do it. In the next edition of "Return of the Jedi" - you'll see him pointing and laughing at Anakin when he shows up next to him and Yoda in Luke's vision. He'll also shout out "PWNED!" and give Yoda a low-five.

[Captain Sarcasm]

Obi-Wan has "pwned" status. In fact, he never really lost to Darth Vader in Episode 4 - he simply decided that it was time to "Become One With the Force" just before Vader hit him with his lightsaber. Because he's that much of a bastard, he even denied Anakin the chance to kill him at the exact moment he was going to do it. In the next edition of "Return of the Jedi" - you'll see him pointing and laughing at Anakin when he shows up next to him and Yoda in Luke's vision. He'll also shout out "PWNED!" and give Yoda a low-five.

That, and Obi-Wan flipped over Maul, landing on the same level ground as he. Maul just wasn't able to cut all his appendages off.

[Valmore]

That, and Obi-Wan flipped over Maul, landing on the same level ground as he. Maul just wasn't able to cut all his appendages off.

For a guy named Captain Sarcasm, you take all the fun out of being sarcastic. :p

[Ghost]

Anakin: If you're not with me, you're my enemy!
Obi-Wan: Only a Sith deals with absolutes! Only a Sith! Jedi never deal with absolutes! Every single Sith deals with absolutes 100% of the time, no exceptions! You must be a Sith, since you used an absolute statement! I would never use an absolute statement!
Anakin: Really? Uh... the sky is blue!
Obi-Wan: Another absolute! You are truly lost! I will do what I must!

No comment.

This thread reminds me of the MTV Movie Awards.

Padmé: Obi-Wan... He said you have turned to the Dark Side!
Anakin: It's called a tan. Why do you think I wanted property on a lava-planet? Sheesh.
Padmé: He said you killed younglings!
Anakin: At Younglings. I killed at Younglings. You know, the club? You should see my stand-up routine, I totally blew them away.
Padmé: I can't believe what I'm hearing!
Anakin: I'm just kidding! I never do stand-up.

Anakin: What is Obi-Wan doing here? And why is he wearing my bathrobe? And I can see you've spilt barbeque sauce on it!
Obi-Wan: You have done that yourself!
Anakin: You seem to forget that I'm a vegetarian, so I don't eat barbeque. I absolutely don't eat barbeque!
Obi-Wan: Only a Sith deals in absolutes!
Anakin: A what?
Obi-Wan: A Sith!
Anakin: You really need to do something about that lisp of yours.
Obi-Wan: I shall do what I must!

:D

[IamtheRock3]

The movies of people falling to the darkside proves

if you take away people ability to knock the boots..then people go craaaazy.

Anakin may of not turn..if didnt have to tap that sweet sweeeet booty on the downlow.


Luke fix that he was like

"ahhhh Hell no..I am going to get some booty"

[boolean]

And I agree with you lonewolf23k in that a lot of the Jedi's stumbles were in response to Sith actions. Although, for the record, it was Jedi Sifo-Diyas who comissioned the clone army, behind the back of the council. Palpatine and Dooku capitalized on it, and used it against them.

I haven't read any of the novels etc., but is it ever explained who Sifo-Diyas was?

I heard a rumour that it was supposed to be Palpatine (Sifo-Diyas = Sidious), which fits with the whole "Execute Order 66" deal. Maybe he commissioned the clones, and included a hidden command in the design specs.

[cactusmaac]

The movies of people falling to the darkside proves

if you take away people ability to knock the boots..then people go craaaazy.

Anakin may of not turn..if didnt have to tap that sweet sweeeet booty on the downlow.


Luke fix that he was like

"ahhhh Hell no..I am going to get some booty"

I think the Jedi could get booty.

They just couldn't get too attached to it.

[Lord Darkwolf]

How Obi-wan should have countered Anakin:

Obi-wan: Anakin, the Sith are evil!
Anakin: From my point of view, the Jedi are evil!
Obi-Wan: How many people have the Sith saved?
Anakin: What?
Obi-wan: Have the Jedi ever slaughtered innocent people?
...


Mandoloreans : Ya know even though we weren't exactly innocent being soldiers we weren't evil either . Yet the Jedi slaughtered us down to the last man in a situation where WE were the good guys. And then left our leader to be tortured by a evil man leaving him with a great hatred of all things Jedi .

[SuperSaiyaMan12]

Mandoloreans : Ya know even though we weren't exactly innocent being soldiers we weren't evil either . Yet the Jedi slaughtered us down to the last man in a situation where WE were the good guys. And then left our leader to be tortured by a evil man leaving him with a great hatred of all things Jedi .
The Jedi's were trying to be peaceful and everything on that occassion, and the Mandalorians did almost conquer the Republic 4000 years ago, remember/

[Jared]

Thank you. I just never really got the climactic-sense of that scene. The emperor is hitting him with some kind of moral dilemma, except it isn't a dilemma and the black-and-white of it is pretty darn obvious.

"You wanted to goad me into acting violently by threatening the people I love? Guess what, sunshine? Your plan worked!" *smack*

Except that Luke was no match for the Emperor at that point.
I've always figured there's more going on in that scene than just Palpatine's words, that it's like Luke can feel the lure of the Dark Side tugging at his soul. Kinda like on LOTR, where you can never see what makes the One-Ring's presence so incredibly tempting, you just know that it is.

Re: Shaak Ti getting killed by Grievous, it's a deleted scene that's not even meant to be part of the movie anymore. Shaak Ti shows up later in the movie during a Jedi Council meeting (via hologram, IIRC). Her canonocial death is from Anakin killing her in the temple.

[Captain Sarcasm]

For a guy named Captain Sarcasm, you take all the fun out of being sarcastic. :p

*All* the fun? Only a Sith deals in absolutes.

[Captain Sarcasm]

I haven't read any of the novels etc., but is it ever explained who Sifo-Diyas was?

I heard a rumour that it was supposed to be Palpatine (Sifo-Diyas = Sidious), which fits with the whole "Execute Order 66" deal. Maybe he commissioned the clones, and included a hidden command in the design specs.

Pretty much. He put special mojo in their DNA that let him control them. Or something. Midichlorians.

[Buried Alien]

One of the underlying themes of STAR WARS was how the Jedi had become arrogant and blind to their own flaws, and how these flaws brought about their downfall. Years later, when Luke Skywalker reformed the Jedi Order, he did his best to use what he had learned to correct these flaws.


Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

[Jared]

Webcomic Author Ralph Hayes (of Goblin Hollow, Nip and Tuck and Tales of the Questor) is convinced the Jedi are evil bastards as well..

See here (http://utlt.keenspace.com/d/20050610.html):

"What is it with you people and Darth Vader anyway? Darth was the Villain! Don't you know the Jedi were the Good Guys?"
"Oh, you mean those good guys who nabbed children from all over the galaxy to raise in their religious cult, exploited an entire race of lobotomized clones as cannon fodder, plotted an assassination attempt and whose greates hero stood and watched while his Padawan burned alive like a toasted Marshmallow?
"...As you were."
"Thank you. Now if you'll excuse me, I have some Rebel Scum to crush."

And be sure to start with the Young'ens, kiddo. Frankly, I find all of those arguments to be a pile of lob-sided BS.. The author also thinks the Jedi were scum for trying to overthrow their government, for denying Anakin his "natural urges" and not giving him any options, for using brainwashing techniques, etc..

...of course, he completly neglects the fact that the Sith were at the cause root of many of the above problems which forced the Jedi to make difficult choices...

He also neglects the fact that the Jedi don't kidnap children. Qui-Gonn asked Shmi to let him take Anakin, no mind-trickery involved. And he tried to free Shmi too. The books also make it clear that Jedi recruits are orphans or children voluntarily given up by their families.

Though what does need to be explained is why the hell Shmi's freedom wasn't bought by the Republic, the Jedi, or the Naboo right after Episode I. Maybe it was suppossed to, but Palpatine fudged the paperwork on the money transfer?

[Jared]

Valid points, but that only holds true up to a point.

What about the 'no emotion' thing, or the rigid set of rules in terms of raising somebody to be a Jedi?
.

It really isn't "no emotion" in robotic or Vulcan sense. We see Jedi clearly show friendly affection for one another and for non-Jedi.
They're not suppossed to have attachment relationships, ie: families. But then, neither are many religious orders on Earth. Indeed, many are more strict about such things.

[Jared]

I haven't read any of the novels etc., but is it ever explained who Sifo-Diyas was?

I heard a rumour that it was supposed to be Palpatine (Sifo-Diyas = Sidious), which fits with the whole "Execute Order 66" deal. Maybe he commissioned the clones, and included a hidden command in the design specs.

In early versions of the Episode II script, the Jedi who commissioned the clones was named "Sido-Dias", and it would have been revealed during Obi Wan's conversation with the council that there was no Jedi by that name. The implication being that it was an alias being used by Darth Sidious.
For whatever reason this was changed for the movie, and later expanded upon in the book Labarynthe of Evil. Sifo-Diyas was Dooku's best friend in the order, and another maverick. He apparently sensed a growing threat to the Republic and commissioned the clone army in secret. Dooku's test to be annointed a Sith was to murder his friend.
I'm not clear on whether Diyas thought to raise an army entirely on his own, or had perhaps been influenced by Dooku or Palpatine.

[Jagatai_Khan]

Okay... Let's say that every Force-User has two batteries for Force - A Light battery and a Dark battery. Their total force is divided between them..

Which, if course, isn't at all how it works.

There's the Force. What's Light or Dark is the people using it. The Force is just the Force.

[Jagatai_Khan]

It's a corrupting influence that makes you more and more susceptible to evil the longer you use it, like a crack addict.

Except that abuse of *mundane* power works the same way.

There's no difference between a "Dark Side" user and a totally mundane person who's just very corrupt. Save for the fact that one has supernatural power and the other doesn't. But, intrinsically, the source of thier corruption is nothing other than themselves.

[Captain Sarcasm]

Which, if course, isn't at all how it works.

No, of course not. That's why it's a metaphor.

[Jared]

Except that abuse of *mundane* power works the same way.

There's no difference between a "Dark Side" user and a totally mundane person who's just very corrupt. Save for the fact that one has supernatural power and the other doesn't. But, intrinsically, the source of thier corruption is nothing other than themselves.

At best, that's open to interpretation. Depending on how one interprets some comments that the Flanned One has made.

[Bruce Wayne Jr.]

I wouldn't be so sure.. ...Just because the Kaminoans say they were hired by a Jedi doesn't mean they couldn't have been fooled by a Sith, or that if it had been a Jedi, that he wasn't being manipulated or corrupted by Sidious in the first place.

...After all, Jango Fett was working for the Sith...

It's canon.

As much sense as it would make to have it actually be a Sith behind the clone startup, they've explicitly pointed out several times that it was indeed a Jedi Master. They even went as far as to show him in the Star Wars: Visionaries compilation (Now, this might start the argument of what's canon and what isn't, but I really don't wanna do that! As far as I know, Lucas has signed off on the work in this book. Personally, I try to make every bit of EU continuity fit. As long as it don't hurt the good stuff, why not?). I believe they also mentioned it outright in the Essential Chronology guide.

Yeah, I was a lil disappointed too. But then again, you can still tie it back to Palpatine in that the events of TPM gave rise to this particular Jedi's paranoia, which drove him to do what he did. I'd like to think he maybe caught a glimpse of the future through the Force; another twist of irony for the Jedi. :confused:

[Bruce Wayne Jr.]

I think you'll find your answer to this in Jolee Bindo from KOTOR - the Grey Jedi.

Basically, neither side has it correctly. The Jedi believe themselves to be selfless, and even if they usually are, it does tend to lead them to a stuffy arrogance in that their way is correct, and all other ways are wrong and lead to the dark side. That you can't act on emotions ever, and in that they basically have a flawed sense of logic.

The Sith are generally those prone to tending to only their own needs, and not caring about the needs of others in certain degrees. That helping others makes them weak. Might makes right, and all others should either step aside or get trampled on. Not exactly the best mindset, either.

Jolee Bindo, ex-Jedi but non-Sith, has a balance of both sides - he's not completely selfish like a Sith, but he doesn't adhere to the idea that acting on your emotions in certain degrees is a bad thing. That sometimes, it's okay to look out for No. 1, but other times, it makes more sense to act selflessly.

Kind of like... Ryu-Ken-Akuma. :p

Perfect. If I had a No-Prize, I'd give it to ya.

[Captain Sarcasm]

Except that abuse of *mundane* power works the same way.

There's no difference between a "Dark Side" user and a totally mundane person who's just very corrupt. Save for the fact that one has supernatural power and the other doesn't. But, intrinsically, the source of thier corruption is nothing other than themselves.

Except that this is a supernatural power that has been shown to affect the morality of the wielder and people around him. The corruption starts from the Dark Side user, but the Force amplifies it.

[Enterprise E]

Except that this is a supernatural power that has been shown to affect the morality of the wielder and people around him. The corruption starts from the Dark Side user, but the Force amplifies it.

Is it? I have always believed that it is the person him/herself that makes actions light or dark. The Force and its effect is kind of similar to political power, only its effects are much more visible. People who are in it only for themselves will become corrupted by the power that they have. Yet a good person will not be corrupted. In terms of the Force, someone could use "Dark Side" techniques like Force Lightning or any of the other more destructive powers, and yet not turn into a Sith. It depends on why he or she uses the power.

Anakin, in my mind, always wanted to be something more. He even said it. He wanted power, and he believed that the "Dark Side" was the way to get this power. It wasn't the power that was corrupting him; he hadn't even gained the power yet, it was his own lust for power to the exclusion of everyone else, even himself and who he used to be, that drew him in. He may say that he did everything for Padme and to save her, but in truth, he did it only for himself. He wouldn't even listen to Padme when she tried to talk sense into him.

Luke, on the other hand, was different. He was faced with the situation of watching his friends die. But he did not go evil because he was a better person than his father. He had no real wish to gain power no matter the cost, not even in "Dark Empire" when he acted like he was serving Palpatine. Even then, he actively killed Imperials and helped the Rebel Alliance destroy the World Devastators. In the end Leia was able to talk sense into him when he thought that he had lost and that he could not escape Palpatine's grasp. He listened to Leia, his closest friend and twin sister and fought back against Palpatine, defeating him. This situation sounds very similar to one that his father faced. Odd that two different things happened as a result. I think that it all boiled down to that Anakin was a whiny, selfish brat, and Luke wasn't.

[cactusmaac]

I disagree.

Luke didn't turn because he knew what happened to his father.

Even Yoda knew that temperementally he was very similar to Anakin, and given the same set of circumstances he probably would have acted the same.

[Peter]

No, reatcing = good. Acting out of anger = bad. If Palpy had drawn a lightsaber, Luke could have reacted in direct self-defense, but, as it stood, there was no way out of that without murdering a helpless old man.

Given that's *not* what Luke ended up doing, obviously this is wrong and there was a way around it.


But if you attack him and fail...

At least he's too busy fighting you to worry about comitting genocide.

the result is no different than if he had attacked you and succeeded. Plan A is no better or worse.

So sitting back and letting him do it is "no better or worse" than attacking him and trying to stop him?

You are trying to convince me that the Jedi *weren't* the badguys, remember?

These guys are people that spend their entire lives synching their auras up with the permeating wavelength of the universe. Once you're on the light side, it becomes easier to stay there, however if you shift to the dark side, you shift *hard*.

And motivation is more important than the action itself. I don't buy it and I'm never going to, and I still wonder why these guys are looked upon as the goodguys.

[SuperSaiyaMan12]

So sitting back and letting him do it is "no better or worse" than attacking him and trying to stop him?

You are trying to convince me that the Jedi *weren't* the badguys, remember?
People, ordinary people hated Jedi in KOTOR II due to the fine line of Jedi/Sith. To an ordinary person, they are just two little words.

[Jared]

And motivation is more important than the action itself. I don't buy it and I'm never going to, and I still wonder why these guys are looked upon as the goodguys.

Despite some institutional/doctrinal flaws, the Jedi Knights are still a group of people who use their gifts to protect innocent people. The Sith are an order dedictated to acheiving power to dominate others, through utterly ruthless means. You've got to strain your sight through one hell of a prism to see the Jedi as the bad guys in comparison.

[SuperSaiyaMan12]

Despite some institutional/doctrinal flaws, the Jedi Knights are still a group of people who use their gifts to protect innocent people. The Sith are an order dedictated to acheiving power to dominate others, through utterly ruthless means. You've got to strain your sight through one hell of a prism to see the Jedi as the bad guys in comparison.
Like I said, to most people, Jedi and Sith are just words. Those who had fought both couldn't tell the difference, and hated them.

[Jared]

Is it? I have always believed that it is the person him/herself that makes actions light or dark. The Force and its effect is kind of similar to political power, only its effects are much more visible. People who are in it only for themselves will become corrupted by the power that they have. Yet a good person will not be corrupted. In terms of the Force, someone could use "Dark Side" techniques like Force Lightning or any of the other more destructive powers, and yet not turn into a Sith. It depends on why he or she uses the power.


While I don't think using Force Lightning in and of itself would turn most Jedi dark, it *is* a Dark Side technique, in that it apparently acts as a manfiestation of hate.
I believe your depiction of the Force is very similar to that which has been espoused by some charcters in the EU, most notably Jacen Solo. But fans are taking bets on whether he's going to become a villain in the next storyline or not.
I think that basic philopophy of the Force is called the Potentium Heresey by the Jedi Order.

[Jared]

Like I said, to most people, Jedi and Sith are just words. Those who had fought both couldn't tell the difference, and hated them.

Like who, besides the Mandalorians? They aren't exactly paragons of human decency themselves.

Jedi don't test their members by requiring them to be hunted by assassin droids, murder their best friends, or hackup a bunch of younglings.

[SuperSaiyaMan12]

Like who, besides the Mandalorians? They aren't exactly paragons of human decency themselves.

Jedi don't test their members by requiring them to be hunted by assassin droids, murder their best friends, or hackup a bunch of younglings.
Throughout KOTOR II, you encounter people who hate Jedi as much as the SIth, simply because they cannot tell the difference between the two. Hell, when you meet a war vet on Nar Shaada, he said that the Jedi destroyed the Republic planets, when it was really the Sith who did it. He retorts "Jedi...Sith...all the same to most people."

Oh, and the Mandalorians didn't hate the Jedi. Far from it, they respected them.

[Captain Sarcasm]

Given that's *not* what Luke ended up doing, obviously this is wrong and there was a way around it.

No, Luke slipped, and nearly fell to the Dark Side. If Vader hadn't stopped his lighsaber, he would have become another Emperor.

He nearly fell later, when Vader told him that he knew about his sister, but he spared Vader's life, and then Vader saved Luke and redeemed himself. The lesson is that taking life, in any situation, should be avoided, and that sparing life allows it to redeem itself.

EDIT: And at the end, that *is* what he wound up doing. He threw away his lightsaber and refused to fight. If he had known that they could shoot lightning from their fingers, he might have won that.

At least he's too busy fighting you to worry about comitting genocide.

No, because, as you said, failing when attacking someone means "You'd be dead," and then he commits that genocide anyway.


So sitting back and letting him do it is "no better or worse" than attacking him and trying to stop him?

You are trying to convince me that the Jedi *weren't* the badguys, remember?

And you're saying it's better to kill someone when you can solve a problem without violence AND save a person from damnation?

And motivation is more important than the action itself. I don't buy it and I'm never going to, and I still wonder why these guys are looked upon as the goodguys.

Legally and morally, you're wrong. Killing in self-defense is different than killing because someone pissed you off. One's self-defense, or at worse, justifiable manslaughter, the other is first degree murder.

As far as the Force is concerned, the fact that the Emperor had been taunting him and angering him would mean that, if he had killed him, he'd most likely have taken pleasure in it, which is what the Jedi are forbidden to do.

You cannot tell me that there's no moral difference between killing someone to protect your friends and killing someone to protect your friends and *liking it.*

And *that* is why the Jedi are the good guys. They're the ones that don't like to kill.

[Captain Sarcasm]

People, ordinary people hated Jedi in KOTOR II due to the fine line of Jedi/Sith. To an ordinary person, they are just two little words.

True, but to an ordinary person, pop rocks and cola cause your stomach to explode. That doesn't make it correct.

[IamtheRock3]

I think the Jedi could get booty.

They just couldn't get too attached to it.


So Yoda basicly said just dont love them hoez?