Is Black Panther Good?

[Dancer]

Thinking of reading it, is it good?

[The Wayner]

I like it. But, not sure of its current CBR Forum status, when the book first debuted it was under massive negative fire.

[Crimson]

I dislike it.

The HoM crossover issue was good and the X-Men crossover hasn't been too bad but Milligan plotted it. I'm dropping it after one more issue.

[Beast]

I dislike it.

The HoM crossover issue was good and the X-Men crossover hasn't been too bad but Milligan plotted it. I'm dropping it after one more issue.
Totally agree. The first six issues mangled Black Panther canon and continuity to Wakanda and back. Plus the writer's excuse that anyone who uses canon or continuity as an excuse for disliking the book is just racist have put me off the book. That said, the HoM issue was fairly good, mostly cause there was no oppertunity to really mangle continuity. And like Crimson said, the X-Men Crossover was plotted by Milligan, so it saved it from being dreadful. But I'm done with the book now. :)

[Doom Hammer]

Thinking of reading it, is it good?

Short answer:

No.

Long answer:

It went from being laughably atrocious, to dislikable, to just bad. I don't know why Marvel seemed to push this crappy, crappy books so heavily, and I don't know why the company also feels as though Hudlin is a worthwhile comic writer. He is not. He writes bad comics.

[Core]

I think that Hudlin has written some worthwhile comics, but despite my high hopes for the book, I don't personally feel that his BLACK PANTHER has been one of them. I desperately want to support a book staring Black Panther, but I couldn't justify putting my money down for the current manifestation of the character, a manifestation that shows little regard for established continuity.

[Young Avenger]

It was good during Prist's run. Hudlin run on Black Panther has been crap. Wait until Marvel puts a better writer on the book.

[Loren]

Plus the writer's excuse that anyone who uses canon or continuity as an excuse for disliking the book is just racist have put me off the book.

And don't bother sharing your complaints with him, either. One repeated critic tried spelling out his problems with Hudlin's BP (after Hudlin said "There's really no need to debate them, because their comments expose themselves"), and got this response (http://www.hudlinentertainment.com/smf/index.php?topic=1126.msg11835#msg11835):

"I don't know how to make it more clear to you that I a) don't care who you are, and b) don't care what you think about the book.

"THE BLACK PANTHER is a hit. The latest issue sold out. My first six issues are in hardback. Way too much time and energy has been spent on this board debating with trolls like yourself. Your arguments on continuity, the tone of the character and book are just silly. And references fanboys on other sites who probably never bought any incarnaton of the book means less than nothing to me.

"To state the obvious, I write SPIDER MAN, BLACK PANTHER and run a television network. I don't have a minute to care about you."

[Babylon23]

I'm a huge Black Panther fan, but this title lost me very quickly. John Romita Jr. kept me on the book for the first 6 issues, but the huge continuity errors and poor writing in general pushed me away.

Of course, the simple solution to the continuity problem would have been to make this Ultimate Black Panther. I'm not sure why Marvel didn't take this route.

Also, Hudlin's attitude is just baffling. I never thought I was racist, but apparently my love of comic book continuity on my favourite characters means that I am. :rolleyes:

[thik_3rd]

another reason to hate hudlin -- after he took over as programming director of bet, the station blacklisted a few hundred musicians so that their videos will never be shown again.

[Doom Hammer]

And don't bother sharing your complaints with him, either. One repeated critic tried spelling out his problems with Hudlin's BP (after Hudlin said "There's really no need to debate them, because their comments expose themselves"), and got this response (http://www.hudlinentertainment.com/smf/index.php?topic=1126.msg11835#msg11835):

"I don't know how to make it more clear to you that I a) don't care who you are, and b) don't care what you think about the book.

"THE BLACK PANTHER is a hit. The latest issue sold out. My first six issues are in hardback. Way too much time and energy has been spent on this board debating with trolls like yourself. Your arguments on continuity, the tone of the character and book are just silly. And references fanboys on other sites who probably never bought any incarnaton of the book means less than nothing to me.

"To state the obvious, I write SPIDER MAN, BLACK PANTHER and run a television network. I don't have a minute to care about you."

Wow. I don't think anything has to be said about this, really. Alienating the fans (or non-fans, doesn't matter) and blowing off all the people who buy your book is remarkably stupid. Yeah, stupid.

I'm going to go to sleep tonight counting all the writers who are more talented than Hudlin, like sheep. It'll be easy. Then I'm gonna count all the writers who are friendlier than Hudlin. That'll be even easier.

It's times like these I appreciate places like Bendis' board, and all the creators who come on to CBR and don't make idiots of themselves.

If the man wrote good comics, I would tolerate his idiocy. If some of the writers like Bendis or Morrison who write mind-blowingly awesome books came to my house, insulted my mother, and hit be with a bat, I would still admit to their awesomeness. But Hudlin hasn't written anything worthwhile.

Do NOT buy Black Panther.

I'm going to see if there's any way I can cancel my subscription, and then I'm done with all of Hudlin's ridiculous books. Screw The Other, I'll wait 'til some talent comes back to the books in two months.

[Tennoarashi]

After reading that quote from Mr. Hudlin, I'm never picking up a book with his name on it again.

[The Shadow]

It's times like these I appreciate places like Bendis' board, and all the creators who come on to CBR and don't make idiots of themselves.
No kidding.

I dropped it with #5 (but did get the House of M issue) and hated everything about it... even the JRJR art.

I won't buy a Reggie comic again. Hit Marvel where it hurts... the wallet.

[Young Avenger]

Someone tell Mr. Hudlin that one only reason why the lastest issue of Black Panther sold out was because it was part of a crossover. It had nothing to do with his writing. After reading his quote I'm not supporting him. Of course this means I'm screwed when it comes to act two of "The Other"

[Taskmaster]

Somebody needs to tell him that having your first six issues in hardback doesn't mean a damn thing if nobody buys it. What an incredible ass :mad:

[Will.S]

The whole Black Panther relaunch and retelling would have been perfect as an Ultimate story since I did like alot of elements of the first story but they just changed too much of Panther's story especially making his Avengers membership come into question.

The second "Wild Kingdom" arc is pretty fun though.

[hbkabdul]

And don't bother sharing your complaints with him, either. One repeated critic tried spelling out his problems with Hudlin's BP (after Hudlin said "There's really no need to debate them, because their comments expose themselves"), and got this response (http://www.hudlinentertainment.com/smf/index.php?topic=1126.msg11835#msg11835):

"I don't know how to make it more clear to you that I a) don't care who you are, and b) don't care what you think about the book.

"THE BLACK PANTHER is a hit. The latest issue sold out. My first six issues are in hardback. Way too much time and energy has been spent on this board debating with trolls like yourself. Your arguments on continuity, the tone of the character and book are just silly. And references fanboys on other sites who probably never bought any incarnaton of the book means less than nothing to me.

"To state the obvious, I write SPIDER MAN, BLACK PANTHER and run a television network. I don't have a minute to care about you."


HA! Hudlin is the man with those comments. Oh and i like the book.

[Sharcque]

It just kills me how every time someone criticized the book directly to Reggie, he would come back and say that he knows that they've never bought any incarnation of Black Panther. I remember once he even said that none of us ever supported any book with a black lead in it.

What a tool.

[Crash-Man]

The book stinks. Where's that thread I started on it a few months ago?

That said, I actually enjoyed Hudlin's work on Spider-Man more than most Spider-stuff I've read in a few years.

[bosshog7169]

Dang... Hudlin really makes it hard to like him. I mean I'm really tryin to put some faith in him but everything he does lately smells like crap to me. I liked black panther number one but honestly its been all jibberish to me since then. I'm not an anal and obsessive fanboy, and I do own a copy of Kirby's Panther #1, just to show that I'm not just getting acquainted with the character. I like the guy from the interviews I've read, but at this point I'm kind of angry he suckered me into buying his sloppy stories filled with crap and more crap. I would take the time to explain why his books are a waste of my money, but that would just make me hate him more. Hudlin is a disappointment and he should show a little respect to the fans. I mean I'm all for big adventure, but even Stan Lee wouldn't have put aunt may in an iron man suit. This Hudlin dude is crazy. I'm going to sleep and never buying his comics again. Good luck with BET, and stop writing spiderman hudlin...gnight

[protege]

It was good during Prist's run. Hudlin run on Black Panther has been crap. Wait until Marvel puts a better writer on the book.
Or relaunches it and THEN puts a better writer on the book.

[El Santo]

My two cents: If you go into the book with no expectations from the previous Black Panther series, the current Black Panther is rather good. The "Who Is Black Panther?" arc, drawn by John Romita Jr. is very nice. Wild Kingdom, IMO, blew chunks, but that was more the fault of the X-Men writer (Milligan?) than Hudlin.

That's not to say Hudlin is a perfect writer. He's a screenwriter, and his early comic work has a few issues related to him adjusting to a different medium. His grasp on Marvel characters has been tightening as of late, and I think his run on MK Spiderman has done wonders for his pacing. I recommend checking out a few pages of the Hardcover trade at your comic book store, and making up your own mind based on that.

[Alan2099]

It's garbage. Nothing Hudlin writes is worth the paper it's printed on.

[abyss]

My two cents: If you go into the book with no expectations from the previous Black Panther series, the current Black Panther is rather good. The "Who Is Black Panther?" arc, drawn by John Romita Jr. is very nice. Wild Kingdom, IMO, blew chunks, but that was more the fault of the X-Men writer (Milligan?) than Hudlin.
Ok that answer my question...I've broswed through BP issues in the store and they seem good. I've never read Black Panther soo unlike everyone else I have no expectations going in im jsut waitng for it to come out in paper back form so I can pick it up.

[Sharcque]

"You got me staight up trippin', boo."

Need I say more?

[DDM]

Ok that answer my question...I've broswed through BP issues in the store and they seem good. I've never read Black Panther soo unlike everyone else I have no expectations going in im jsut waitng for it to come out in paper back form so I can pick it up.

Skip Hudlin's Black Panther. Read the Black Panther's first appearance in Essential Fantastic Four.

[abyss]

Skip Hudlin's Black Panther. Read the Black Panther's first appearance in Essential Fantastic Four.
perhaps I will im kidna trying to track down Priests BP run so far I've only located two trades? is that all that was collected from his run?

[Sleeper]

perhaps I will im kidna trying to track down Priests BP run so far I've only located two trades? is that all that was collected from his run?
Sadly, yes. And there's not a great chance of Marvel bringing it out because that would just make for too great a reading experience. Of those that enjoy the layered and conniving sort of stories present in the Priest run of BP.

[rogueorigen]

it's a shame that reg is such an [DELETED] cause there are alot of black readers such as myself who really want innovative strong storytelling and characters. the new series is alright but i can't wait till a new writer comes. someone who genuinely loves the character or is even willing to risk approval from corp execs in writing thought provoking storylines. i'd rather read the 70's versions and the priest run. readers are right. hit marvel where it hurts :the pocket. if i do read them it'll be at barnes and noble where i don't have to pay.

[Will.S]

Sadly, yes. And there's not a great chance of Marvel bringing it out because that would just make for too great a reading experience. Of those that enjoy the layered and conniving sort of stories present in the Priest run of BP.
Too true.

Also once Sal Velluto come aboard as artist the title REALLY jumped off.

[The Shadow]

After reading that quote from Mr. Hudlin, I'm never picking up a book with his name on it again.
Same here.

Save your money or buy Priest's run instead.

[Taskmaster]

Same here.

Save your money or buy Priest's run instead.


I've been trying, his run is a pain to find half of it, I have most of the end of his run, but i'm missing most of the rest :(

[Will.S]

I've been trying, his run is a pain to find half of it, I have most of the end of his run, but i'm missing most of the rest :(
Yeah it sucks, I guess you're best bet is to check Milehighcomics or some other online store that sells old back issues. Either that or beg Marvel to get off their asses and give the rest of Priest's run in TPB form.

[Taskmaster]

Yeah it sucks, I guess you're best bet is to check Milehighcomics or some other online store that sells old back issues. Either that or beg Marvel to get off their asses and give the rest of Priest's run in TPB form.

Ha ha ha, like Marvel gives a damn what the fans want ;)

[The Shadow]

you can always try eBay... and you should be able to get it nice and cheap in lots from there

[BlackKnight]

Don't read Hudlin's stuff, on top of his poor writing the man has no respect for other writers, changing the histories of Charactors that are actually in use right now, like Radioactive man. Thank god that Fabian just ignored the ignorant russian version.

[Babylon23]

I'd like recommend Don McGregor's run on BP from Jungle Action in the 70's. They're not easy to find, but these are excellent stories.

[JeffreyWKramer]

Thinking of reading it, is it good?


No. No, it isn't.

[DOOM2099]

Yeah. I have always liked BP, I have always liked the underpowered characters best anyway and I think most people agree. But this is crap. Only my love and obsession with all things Romita kept me on this book. I had NO IDEA that all this other stuff was taking place, with the comment about racism etc.

[Tony Starkz]

Wow,alot of you guys really hate this Hudlin dude.#10 was my first BP issue and I must say I really enjoyed it.Cage's appearance wasn't pointless and was a good way of showing the readers the reputation that BP has.Looking forward to this arc.

[EyesWideOpen]

Wow,alot of you guys really hate this Hudlin dude.#10 was my first BP issue and I must say I really enjoyed it.Cage's appearance wasn't pointless and was a good way of showing the readers the reputation that BP has.Looking forward to this arc.

i feel the same way. i own all of the new Black Panther run and it has been hit or miss but the latest issue was easily my favorite. i haven't read too much from previous runs so i don't have the continuity thing as an issue with me.

[Tony Starkz]

i feel the same way. i own all of the new Black Panther run and it has been hit or miss but the latest issue was easily my favorite. i haven't read too much from previous runs so i don't have the continuity thing as an issue with me.

I've been looking on one of the BP forums on Hudlin's website,and everyone is pretty much praising this current issue as well.House of M,X-Men,and the Origin are all out of the way so now it's time to move forward.

[Dennis K]

Some issues have been better than others, but it's still on my pull-list and I'm still enjoying it, so yeah, Black Panther is good.

[Doom Hammer]

I've been looking on one of the BP forums on Hudlin's website,and everyone is pretty much praising this current issue as well.House of M,X-Men,and the Origin are all out of the way so now it's time to move forward.

Everyone praises the book on Hudlin's board because if they voice dissent they are accused of racism and flamed right off the site...by Reggie Himself, no less.

I don't know, maybe I'm too inherently white and so very used to oppressing all minorities under my booted heel, but it seems to me that Reggie should get some new material. The themes of black persecution and white ineptitude are very apparent, and pretty much all the comic has to offer.

If that works for you, if you like to see uneven portrayals of characters if all ethnicities save one, then you'll like this book. But isn't that sort of thing I look for in any media.

Plus, it's a crappy comic. Laughable continuity flaws (not just established continuity, but even REGGIE'S OWN continuity), puns, lame plots, the works. Regardless of Reggie's racial themes, it's just not a good comic book.

I laughed my ass of when Reggie mentioned something like "deep metaphor" on the letters page. Black Panther is packing so much subtext and so many deeper meanings, it's hard to keep count: the French are screeching surrender-prone weaklings; Russians are alcoholics; Americans are brash, stupid, and insensetive; the English are charmingly-befuddled Hugh Grant clones. So much under the surface of the story! :rolleyes:

And that crap Reggie pulls on the pages is perfectly acceptable, but disliking the comic is racist and insensetive? Ooh, let me go get my torch and pitchfork so I can join the witch hunt!

I've never read a comic that's so offensive and stupid on so many levels.

[Tony Starkz]

Everyone praises the book on Hudlin's board because if they voice dissent they are accused of racism and flamed right off the site...by Reggie Himself, no less.

I don't know, maybe I'm too inherently white and so very used to oppressing all minorities under my booted heel, but it seems to me that Reggie should get some new material. The themes of black persecution and white ineptitude are very apparent, and pretty much all the comic has to offer.

If that works for you, if you like to see uneven portrayals of characters if all ethnicities save one, then you'll like this book. But isn't that sort of thing I look for in any media.

Plus, it's a crappy comic. Laughable continuity flaws (not just established continuity, but even REGGIE'S OWN continuity), puns, lame plots, the works. Regardless of Reggie's racial themes, it's just not a good comic book.

I laughed my ass of when Reggie mentioned something like "deep metaphor" on the letters page. Black Panther is packing so much subtext and so many deeper meanings, it's hard to keep count: the French are screeching surrender-prone weaklings; Russians are alcoholics; Americans are brash, stupid, and insensetive; the English are charmingly-befuddled Hugh Grant clones. So much under the surface of the story! :rolleyes:

And that crap Reggie pulls on the pages is perfectly acceptable, but disliking the comic is racist and insensetive? Ooh, let me go get my torch and pitchfork so I can join the witch hunt!

I've never read a comic that's so offensive and stupid on so many levels.

Keep in mind,#10 was my first issue of BP.I have never had a full understanding of BP's origin plus the earlier issues in this current series.But just from reading this issue alone,I totally got BP's character,what he's all about,and why he is respected in the MU.In my eyes this was a GOOD comic.Calling it a bad or crappy comic seems a bit far out.Writer's mess up continuity all the time in other titles,sure it contradicts what writer's in the past have done or have not done,but I still don't take it as a reason to trash a comic.As for the racism you speak of in the books,you may be looking into things a bit too much.The Ultimates is a perfect example.Caps line "you think this letter on my head stands for France?".Now,does this mean that all French are weak and do nothing but surrender?Does this mean that America is the greatest nation in the world and never steps down in the face of an enemy? Of course not,some people may see this as offensive,but it's a comic book.I take thing's at face value and appreciate them for what they are worth and how they appear.This was clearly a well written issue,far from being bad.Cage's narrative and admiration of BP were genuine.The contrast between BP and the P Diddy look alike really hit the point home of what a man of discipline and respect BP is.Hey I'm not pro-Hudlin or anything,but I love a good comic when I read one.This won't be everyone's cup of tea,but I think that's what Marvel is going for with this title.And just because it isn't your cup of tea,I see no reason to call it crappy.Heck I don't read a single DC comics book but I would never call their books crappy or sucky simply because they aren't of my personal preference.Judging from this current issue,this arc should prove to be a good read,especially for new BP fans like myself.

[cass195]

Black Panther #10 was by far the best issue so far (I actually decided against dropping the series I liked it so much). I think it's because Hudlin's voice/style seems to fit Luke Cage very well. How about a Cage mini from Hudlin?

Or perhaps he's just getting better. His final issue of the Other seemed better than the first two.

[Doom Hammer]

Keep in mind,#10 was my first issue of BP.I have never had a full understanding of BP's origin plus the earlier issues in this current series.But just from reading this issue alone,I totally got BP's character,what he's all about,and why he is respected in the MU.In my eyes this was a GOOD comic.Calling it a bad or crappy comic seems a bit far out.Writer's mess up continuity all the time in other titles,sure it contradicts what writer's in the past have done or have not done,but I still don't take it as a reason to trash a comic.As for the racism you speak of in the books,you may be looking into things a bit too much.The Ultimates is a perfect example.Caps line "you think this letter on my head stands for France?".Now,does this mean that all French are weak and do nothing but surrender?Does this mean that America is the greatest nation in the world and never steps down in the face of an enemy? Of course not,some people may see this as offensive,but it's a comic book.I take thing's at face value and appreciate them for what they are worth and how they appear.This was clearly a well written issue,far from being bad.Cage's narrative and admiration of BP were genuine.The contrast between BP and the P Diddy look alike really hit the point home of what a man of discipline and respect BP is.Hey I'm not pro-Hudlin or anything,but I love a good comic when I read one.This won't be everyone's cup of tea,but I think that's what Marvel is going for with this title.And just because it isn't your cup of tea,I see no reason to call it crappy.Heck I don't read a single DC comics book but I would never call their books crappy or sucky simply because they aren't of my personal preference.Judging from this current issue,this arc should prove to be a good read,especially for new BP fans like myself.

It's not that Black Panther is "not my cup of tea", it's just that I honestly believe than this is probably the worst comic available on the market, and is a perfect example of why comics are not a widely-accepted medium.

I'm all for messages and cultural commentary in comics. Most "good" literature is full of engaging metaphor and social commentary. But Black Panther knows no subtlety and knows no class. The "messages" are blatant, repetetive, and often downright offensive to anyone who isn't black.

And I'm not one to get offended, really. But when reading Reggie's comics in conjunction with his posts, it's obvious that the guy is a hypocrite. He scolds and flames dissenters for racial insenstivity, while writing a comic that portrays nearly all of its non-black characters as one-sided stereotypes.

So what does this book stand for? Certainly not equality; it's characters aren't portrayed as equals! Way to strike a blow for your cause, Mr. Hudlin, by alienating anyone who is not from your built-in demographic.

Is this supposed to be bold? It's not bold, it's ignorant. Anyone can write a one-dimensional stereotype, and that's the extent of Hudlin's apparent ability. Anyone who opposes the Panther is The Man, trying to crush all "jungle bunnies" (Hudlin's words, not mine) under their booted heels. No depth, no real story.

Barring the ineptly-handled social commentary, it is just NOT a good comic. He butchered (not altered, but re-established) the Panther's continuity for no reason. He invented new characters who conveniently have the same names as established characters, who we are supposed to know are, in fact, entirely new characters. His books are full of moronic puns and idiotic gags. (Flying horse crap, real classy). Plus, he messes up what he established. The first arc was a "Black Panther: Year One" story, and yet his current stories, set in current continuity, take place merely days later. A lot of people don't care about contuinuity, but it's necessary to maintaining a shared universe. There will always be little screw-ups, but complete overhaul? Not common and not necessary.

As fars as his claims of making the Panther "stronger", I fail to see this. When confronted by Apocalypse, he relied on the help of various foreign influneces to aid him, and then had Black Bolt ravage the countryside to destroy him. What kind of leader is he? He relied completely on otherwise-ignored foreign influences to bail his ass out, not so much as getting his hands dirty? (And yes, he does ignore foreign influence, allowing millions to die painfully by not sharing the cure for cancer). That's not strength at all.

And we are to beleive that Luke Cage, an Avenger and a father, moonlights as an enforcer for a pimp-slapping would-be assassin of a friggin' world leader? I'm sorry, I just don't see that.

This book has nothing to offer to me, and I don't see what it has to offer to others. When my subscription runs out, I'm done with it. In fact, I expect a significant sales drop after the first twelve issues. (It was originally offered as a package: 12 issues of BP and 12 issues of Wolverine for $20.)

And yeah, I'm uncool here because I'm white and I "don't get it", and I'm hating on a comic when I should just relax. But this book is terrible, and it's not the type of thing that's promoting comics as a medium. It's the only comic I have ever disliked so severly, and Reggie's frequent comments that the dislike of this book stems from racial bias is absolute witch-hunting crap. It's a bad comic with poorly-written racial themes. If it was anything actually profound, I would support it. But it is not.

[Sharcque]

On his own board, Reggie openly accused "all of you so-called continuity buffs" of not really caring about continuity, but rather we are just masking our hatred of a strong black lead by saying we have problems with continuity.

Overlooking that the book sucked, I was going to support it b/c of my love for the BP character. But once I read that, I was done with him & BP.

[Loren]

Plus, he messes up what he established. The first arc was a "Black Panther: Year One" story, and yet his current stories, set in current continuity, take place merely days later.

The latest issue has brought with it further questions about the book's own internal consistency. Hudlin said that the first arc was a Year One, and that T'Challa was not yet an Avenger during its events. Now, as you say, the succeeding stories have made it clear that they take place very soon after the first arc, and not several years later.

So let's forget for a moment that Hudlin said the book wasn't a reboot, and pretend that it is. T'Challa's history in the MU has been wiped clean, and the Black Panther just appeared on the scene mere months ago in the MU. (And we know the book's set in the regular Marvel Universe because we had three crossover issues in a row, and the promise that BP is going to take a big role in the MU in '06.)

That explains some of the first arc, as well as the X-Men's seeming ignorance of BP. But then it makes absolutely no sense that Spider-Man (over in Hudlin's issue of FNSM) refers to BP as a fellow Avenger. It also makes the opening scene of BP #10 impossible, since it has Luke Cage admiring BP way back when he was in prison, before he got powers.

You don't even have to mention anyone else's issues to see the inconsistency here. In some Hudlin issues, T'Challa just recently became BP, and has never been an Avenger. In other Hudlin issues, he's been the Black Panther, and an Avenger, for years. It doesn't add up.

[Tony Starkz]

The latest issue has brought with it further questions about the book's own internal consistency. Hudlin said that the first arc was a Year One, and that T'Challa was not yet an Avenger during its events. Now, as you say, the succeeding stories have made it clear that they take place very soon after the first arc, and not several years later.

So let's forget for a moment that Hudlin said the book wasn't a reboot, and pretend that it is. T'Challa's history in the MU has been wiped clean, and the Black Panther just appeared on the scene mere months ago in the MU. (And we know the book's set in the regular Marvel Universe because we had three crossover issues in a row, and the promise that BP is going to take a big role in the MU in '06.)

That explains some of the first arc, as well as the X-Men's seeming ignorance of BP. But then it makes absolutely no sense that Spider-Man (over in Hudlin's issue of FNSM) refers to BP as a fellow Avenger. It also makes the opening scene of BP #10 impossible, since it has Luke Cage admiring BP way back when he was in prison, before he got powers.

You don't even have to mention anyone else's issues to see the inconsistency here. In some Hudlin issues, T'Challa just recently became BP, and has never been an Avenger. In other Hudlin issues, he's been the Black Panther, and an Avenger, for years. It doesn't add up.

Mmmm,okay I'm beginning to understand the deal with this whole continuity thing now.

I just picked up this book now and it worked fine for me.For alot of you have a better understanding of the character,I can see why you guys would be pissed.

I am not black and was not by any means offended by anything in the book.The art was great and the story seems like it's going places.

I can understand the issues you guys have with Hudlin,however calling it the worst comic on the market right now seems like a really big stretch in my eyes.Because I for a fact have read worse.

[Dennis K]

calling it the worst comic on the market right now seems like a really big stretch in my eyes. Because I for a fact have read worse.


I'd agree with that.

[The Shadow]

HA! Hudlin is the man with those comments.
Oh... how special... you're a racist too!

Nothing like agreeing with someone that has hatred issues! You are a real class art hblabdul!

[The Shadow]

Or perhaps he's just getting better. His final issue of the Other seemed better than the first two.
His final issue of the Other was nothing but a rehash of Spidey and Morlun's first fight. Hudlin did nothing new (except the eye thing which was an editorial decision not Hudlin's) to warrant any special regard or praise. He simply copied what JMS had already done.

[cass195]

His final issue of the Other was nothing but a rehash of Spidey and Morlun's first fight. Hudlin did nothing new (except the eye thing which was an editorial decision not Hudlin's) to warrant any special regard or praise. He simply copied what JMS had already done.

Well then, maybe THAT'S why it seemed better than his other two issues. Copied JMS is better than new Hudlin.

[The Shadow]

Copied JMS is better than new Hudlin.
Truer words were never spoken.

[CireNagoh]

I like the book and i encourage anyone who's interested in FINALLY seeing a Black Male character get his own BOOK and show black people in a postive image for ONCE in comics. And not as sidekick and NOT chasing after a white woman.

to buy the book.

I'm not a stickler for continuity i'm more of a stickler for..........did i want to see where this story goes. And i have every issue of Black Panther ever. I've been a BP fan since i was a wee tott. I've been Chistopher Priest fan since the same. And Reggie is doin a really good job so far.

Hell on his board i've told him i didn't like those Xmen crossover issues but as a human being i can understand hell not everything is going to be a shot out of the park. Hell i grew up on Claremont and now i can't stand him. It's just how it is.

The book is only seen as racist to those who aren't used to having the finger pointed back at them. If you read the book with an openmind and not expecting CP to write the book then you WILL indeed like the book. I think that's really Reggie's failing. He doesn't understand how nerdy comic book fans are. i think he got himself way in deeper than he thought he would. But hell he's a man and he can say and think and believe what he wants just like anyone else.

read the book unbiased by ignorance and i dont think you can find TOO much wrong with it.

[Sharcque]

read the book unbiased by ignorance and i dont think you can find TOO much wrong with it.
Aaaaaaand we're off.

I really don't have time to list everything wrong with it....seriously, starting with issue 1 and working my way thru the series, it would take over an hour to list it all.

Loren, do you still have that huge list of everything that was wrong with it that you posted about 6 or 7 months ago?

[Xero]

It's a good book. Ignore the naysayers and just pick up the latest issue with Luke Cage, you'll definately like it.

[Sharcque]

It's a good book. Ignore the naysayers and just pick up the latest issue with Luke Cage, you'll definately like it.
ok, care to explain how Cage looked up to BP when he was in jail way back when?

[Neolucifer]

ok, care to explain how Cage looked up to BP when he was in jail way back when?
Sure it cant work . But i'm beyond caring anymore and just glad he is able to write a finally good issue , and imo the one continuity he should ignore is from now on , his own.


Wow,alot of you guys really hate this Hudlin dude.#10 was my first BP issue and I must say I really enjoyed it.Cage's appearance wasn't pointless and was a good way of showing the readers the reputation that BP has.Looking forward to this arc.
I think anyone wich escaped the book till issue 10 can only think that way . Hell the excellent Cable deadpool itself was god awful in its first 6 issue arc then no longer the same .
Well imo it started quite well despite the total ignorance of continuity , then it got boring and still sloppy continuity wise , then it became awful byt the time i wasnt even caring anymore about continuity , then again it it became god-awful in the HoM , where Huddlin couldnt even respect the continuity of HoM , it became enjoyable once again the xmen crossover (its other half by Milligan being awful btw) ... ad now !!
Now wow i am quite impressed , i didnt feel like it was the same writer . Truth is i've kept wondering about that already with his issues of the spiderman:the other crossover , wich are quite good . In those he went from his usual self to a kind of faux JMS mixed with a bit of Peter David's writing , wich was decent enough .
And now he just wrote in BP #10 his best story so far . I've seen some question raised about BP's worshipping by Cage .. however its still does work if you ignore Huddlin 's past crappy run , and consider BP as the most strongest black figure he is suposed to represent in the MU .
i'm also liking the way the future "quest for Storm the ultimate bride" is being hinted at , and agree that indeed only her could be a suitable wife .
Anyway imo Huddlin could and should continue this way , and should definitely ignore one continuity , his own . For the sake of his future issues i hope he'll forget the first arcs , with the exception of this new one , and the xen crossover
In the end here is my decision so far , i'll salvage watever issues i found good , and simply ignore the rest .

[Xero]

ok, care to explain how Cage looked up to BP when he was in jail way back when?

I think you've confused me with someone who gives a damn.

[Doom Hammer]

I like the book and i encourage anyone who's interested in FINALLY seeing a Black Male character get his own BOOK and show black people in a postive image for ONCE in comics. And not as sidekick and NOT chasing after a white woman.

I'm all for seeing characters of any ethnic background getting a prominent role in comics. But I think it speaks better for the character if he or she is in a book that is of a higher quality than Black Panther reaches.

(And let me just point out that black male characters, including the Panther himself, have had books in the past. "Finally" is a bit much).

The book is only seen as racist to those who aren't used to having the finger pointed back at them. If you read the book with an openmind and not expecting CP to write the book then you WILL indeed like the book. I think that's really Reggie's failing. He doesn't understand how nerdy comic book fans are. i think he got himself way in deeper than he thought he would. But hell he's a man and he can say and think and believe what he wants just like anyone else.

It's fine if you want to make these types of comments, but what are you trying to prove? Comics book fans are nerds, whatever. You're a comic book fan too, my friend. So don't exclude yourself from that stereotype.

And it doesn't surprise me, that since you enjoy labeling people and stereotyping them as groups, that you would enjoy a book supporting this type of inequality. If this book is truly trying to send a message, then how can Reggie even justify it? How do you fight racism with racism? It's ignorant, and nothing will convinve me otherwise.

Furthermore, I haven't actually heard any substantial reason why someone would like this book. I mean, in comparison to the bad, the good is just lost. I don't like puns, I don't support stereotyping, and I'm kind of a fan of stories that make sense on any sort of timeline. Could you explain? Outside of the enjoyment of reading about one-dimensional stereotypes, why do you like the book?

read the book unbiased by ignorance and i dont think you can find TOO much wrong with it.

No, not so much ignorance as a different taste. I do think it's ignorant to completely disregard all arguments against a book and make inflammatory statements about the people who read them as the basis of an argument for the book. You're changing the subject, without addressing the actual comic.

[Sharcque]

I think you've confused me with someone who gives a damn.
If I read a book, and come out with question after question about "how is this possible?", then it's really just not enjoyable. It's one thing if it's dealing with another writer's continuity, but when you have continuity issues within your own writing, then there's big problems.

If Robin shows up in the next Batman movie, and he and Bruce begin having conversations as if Robin was there for Batman Begins, talking about Robin's role in the movie, I guess that would be ok with you too?

Curious, how long have you been reading comics?

[The Shadow]

If this book is truly trying to send a message, then how can Reggie even justify it? How do you fight racism with racism? It's ignorant, and nothing will convinve me otherwise.
NICE POST!
Well said.

[Hombre]

Furthermore, I haven't actually heard any substantial reason why someone would like this book.



One thing that should be clear to everyone is how Marvel operates as a publishing company. It's going to publish a succesful book and terminate one that is not. As long as Hudlin's book will be a good seller in Marvel's own terms, its existence will be justified in the eyes of the editors and publishers.

The reason I'm saying this is, we all agree on the quality of Priest's book. Yet that book struggled all the way and never achieved enough sales to remain safe from cancellation. Same story with the Crew. Which is fine. It was a great, finite novel.

And speaking of novels, 30 years ago the Panther inspired another comic book of stunning beauty and lyricism, McGregor and Graham's Jungle Action, which was cut short after a couple of arcs, lasting about 20 issues. Who knows what the story was there, but I think it's fair to assume it had to do with insufficient sales and popularity.

Bottom line is, authors, editors and publishers are people like us fans, and would like to get behind artistically challenging products, I think without those types of products we wouldn't be here talking, but it's the marketplace that determines the survival of even the best books and it's nobody's fault but our own as readers if Hudlin's vision for the Panther is the one that today stands a chance of affirming itself.

[The Cool Thatguy]

read the book unbiased by ignorance and i dont think you can find TOO much wrong with it.

I sorta have to agree with that. You have to be incredably ignorant to ignore the fact that in the first arc, the political symbolism is at least 30 years out of date. Open your history books, and tell me the last time you saw a crusading Englishmen leading an invasion to convert the pagans. I'd be shocked if you found something within the last 100 years, at least. Out of date politics can still make for an interesting story yes, but not when set in the modern date and presented as in the here and now.

At best, Hudlin's Black Panther is proproganda that beats us over the head with his ideas and keeps away intelligent thought. I'm an old Priest fan yes, and that's what makes the lack of quality so hard for so many of us. Priest challenged us as readers with thought provoking plots. Hudlin simply tells us what to think. Which would you prefer?

(Note: Just because I say the symbolism is out of date does not, I repeat not, mean that I think things are going great in Africa. It just means the current (bad) situation is different than what Hudlin depicted (crushing international debt, blood diamonds, etc).)

[Tony Starkz]

ok, care to explain how Cage looked up to BP when he was in jail way back when?

You guys are vicious.

What's wrong with him looking up to BP?It worked and felt genuine.Cage's admiration only shows how much BP is respected among his peers.

I'm a new reader of this book and loved it.No matter how much you guys trash it,that's not going to change.

Vicious fanboys,ughhh.

[The Cool Thatguy]

You guys are vicious.

What's wrong with him looking up to BP?It worked and felt genuine.Cage's admiration only shows how much BP is respected among his peers.

I'm a new reader of this book and loved it.No matter how much you guys trash it,that's not going to change.

Vicious fanboys,ughhh.

The problem is that, according to the internal story logic, T'Challa just became the Black Panther little less than a few months ago (at most). Cage has been a hero for years and years.

Call it continuity, call it internal story logic, call it common freakin' sense, Hudlin just doesn't have it. According to the stories he himself has written, his continuity on Black Panther makes no sense. Hence the complaints.

[Sharcque]

You guys are vicious.

What's wrong with him looking up to BP?It worked and felt genuine.Cage's admiration only shows how much BP is respected among his peers.

I'm a new reader of this book and loved it.No matter how much you guys trash it,that's not going to change.

Vicious fanboys,ughhh.
The point of my question wasn't that BP wasn't someone that Cage should look up to, it was that storywise, it just didn't make sense. The Cool Thatguy pretty much summed it up for me. Thanks.

[cyclops2500]

This comic was exceedingly lame. I didn't even get to issue #3, the art was fine, but the dialogue was poor. I was excited, because the Avengers issues with BP showed him to be an awesome character. It was hugely disappointing to see what a mess it became, even after 2 issues. And again, the dialogue made me throw up my hands in agony. Add that to his comments, and the truth fleshes itself out, the guy's a Hollywood jerk who not reads and believes, but enjoys his own press. Is it me or has almost all of Marvel taken this turn recently?

[Loren]

Loren, do you still have that huge list of everything that was wrong with it that you posted about 6 or 7 months ago?

Ah, yes. The Black Panther Retcon File (http://forums.comicbookresources.com/showthread.php?t=62794), and the neverending thread it spawned. That was six months ago yesterday, in fact.

One additional thought regarding that list. My introduction to it was fairly brief, so I feel like mentioning part of what inspired it. You may recall that Hudlin originally called the series a 'reboot,' then apologized and said he misunderstood the word, and that it was really a 'Year One.' One of the things he said was "It's not about 'negating' all that has gone on before, as some panicked posts have speculated. It's about creating a coherent story that a first time reader of the Black Panther - or even better, a first time reader of a comic book - can pick up and follow."

Whatever the series is (personally, I'm still holding Hudlin to his word that it's not a reboot), I thought the list went a long way towards rebutting Hudlin's claim about not negating previous stories. Because at the very least, Hudlin pulled a 'Man of Steel' here and negated an awful lot. So much, in fact, that we're ten issues in and the readership *still* isn't clear as to exactly what's been done with T'Challa. That's a serious lack of clarity on an author's part, especially for an author who could, at any moment, offer up some straightforward answers on his own message board.

[CireNagoh]

Well for those who like it i'm glad. Because ilike it too. he's not fighting racism, he's showing racism. Showing the face of racism. nothing is racist about him or the lead characters in the book so far as i can tell. As for the comic nerd thing? i think there's a vast difference in dying and crying about continuity other than just reading the story. I guess this is why i like more movies than most people because i can sit there and enjoy what it is in that moment.

Nah i'm a fan of the writers and artists but call me what you like. I personally like the book. I didn't like some issues. Some issues were better than others. And i was reading the book today it kind of hit me. Reggie doesn't write this book for "comicbook white people" or people who've lived their lives in a largely nonblack enviornment.

I say this to all my black brothers and some sista's out there who're reading this. Reggie writes this book for 'US'. We finally have a hero and a book for 'US'. No more fake ass pretend to be black people running around. No more black people being in decidedly ethnic situations being written by ignorant middle aged white men who will try to downplay 'US'. And downplay our situations. I finally have a book that has black people in a postive light and man.

I'm glad as hell for it.

As for Luke Cage being a fan of BP? well the way i see it. he was a fan of Tchaka. or the other black panthers who came before Tchalla. As a black kid in america i wasn't very aware of my african counterparts. As i'm sure MOST innercity kids aren't today.

I took it to mean that look looked up tot eh SYMBOL of the Black Panther more so than.........."TCHALLA, TCHAKA" I took it that way.

lol i just read something that made me chuckle and it really fits. Someone said. "it's a black thang, u wouldn't understand" Unless you WANT to.

I think that fits this book PERFECTLY

[Sharcque]

I say this to all my black brothers and some sista's out there who're reading this. Reggie writes this book for 'US'. We finally have a hero and a book for 'US'. No more fake ass pretend to be black people running around. No more black people being in decidedly ethnic situations being written by ignorant middle aged white men who will try to downplay 'US'. And downplay our situations.
Yep, that totally describes Priest's run, doesn't it? :rolleyes:
I could care less about the politics of the book, I just want it to make sense. That's all.

And I guess the line, "You got me straight up trippin', boo" was ok with you since it was Hudlin that wrote it, right? No matter what universe/reality/whatever, Black Panther would never say that.

[Loren]

I say this to all my black brothers and some sista's out there who're reading this. Reggie writes this book for 'US'. We finally have a hero and a book for 'US'. No more fake ass pretend to be black people running around. No more black people being in decidedly ethnic situations being written by ignorant middle aged white men who will try to downplay 'US'. And downplay our situations. I finally have a book that has black people in a postive light and man.

I'm glad as hell for it.

As for Luke Cage being a fan of BP? well the way i see it. he was a fan of Tchaka. or the other black panthers who came before Tchalla. As a black kid in america i wasn't very aware of my african counterparts. As i'm sure MOST innercity kids aren't today.

I took it to mean that look looked up tot eh SYMBOL of the Black Panther more so than.........."TCHALLA, TCHAKA" I took it that way.

The notion of Carl Lucas looking up to the Black Panther is, I agree, a really good idea on Hudlin's part. It adds a little something to Cage's backstory, and it reemphasizes the common world that the Marvel characters share.

And it would have been a perfect little addition under the old continuity, where T'Challa had been king for a while and had even been an Avenger for a time before Luke Cage got his powers.

But it's Hudlin's own changes to BP's backstory that make this addition of his so awkward. It was Hudlin who set T'Challa's world debut (remember: the White House had never heard of him) mere months before his team-up with Cage (who's been a hero for years in the MU).

Now there's still a chance that Hudlin has some way to explain away all his timeline issues. Maybe T'Challa still donned the Panther vestments and garnered the media's attention prior to Luke Cage becoming a hero. If so, then there's nothing wrong and this is a nice addition. But as it looks now, with the changes Hudlin seems to have made, it doesn't fit. It's like JMS revealing that Peter Parker was partly inspired to become Spider-Man by seeing Jessica Drew as Spider-Woman.

[Young Avenger]

Well for those who like it i'm glad. Because ilike it too. he's not fighting racism, he's showing racism. Showing the face of racism. nothing is racist about him or the lead characters in the book so far as i can tell. As for the comic nerd thing? i think there's a vast difference in dying and crying about continuity other than just reading the story. I guess this is why i like more movies than most people because i can sit there and enjoy what it is in that moment.

Nah i'm a fan of the writers and artists but call me what you like. I personally like the book. I didn't like some issues. Some issues were better than others. And i was reading the book today it kind of hit me. Reggie doesn't write this book for "comicbook white people" or people who've lived their lives in a largely nonblack enviornment.

I say this to all my black brothers and some sista's out there who're reading this. Reggie writes this book for 'US'. We finally have a hero and a book for 'US'. No more fake ass pretend to be black people running around. No more black people being in decidedly ethnic situations being written by ignorant middle aged white men who will try to downplay 'US'. And downplay our situations. I finally have a book that has black people in a postive light and man.

I'm glad as hell for it.

As for Luke Cage being a fan of BP? well the way i see it. he was a fan of Tchaka. or the other black panthers who came before Tchalla. As a black kid in america i wasn't very aware of my african counterparts. As i'm sure MOST innercity kids aren't today.

I took it to mean that look looked up tot eh SYMBOL of the Black Panther more so than.........."TCHALLA, TCHAKA" I took it that way.

lol i just read something that made me chuckle and it really fits. Someone said. "it's a black thang, u wouldn't understand" Unless you WANT to.

I think that fits this book PERFECTLY

I'm sorry but I just laughed when I read this. You can't be serious? That thing of thing would work in Hollywood but not with comics. A comic should be enjoy by anyone who is willing to read it not to just one demographic. As for the comment about black people finally being portrayed in a postive light, have you ever heard of Storm? You know, co-leader of the X-Men who's character has been greatly defined by a British white man? What about Luke Cage? Whatever since Bendis put him in New Avengers the character receive new found popularity. Then there is Patriot from Young Avengers who is an inner city youth who lead a superhero team. BTW, that book is written by the writer of the O.C. Let's not forget about the other great black characters Marvel has like The Falcon, Bishop, Ultimate Nick Fury, Jim Rhodes and many more. Christopher Priest is a black man and his run on Black Panther was greatly recieved by the "white comicbook" people as you call them.

What Hudlin is doing on Black Panther is crap and he has disrespect the character's history and the work of other writers who established his character. I just thought of something. Nightmare has manipulated the Hulk for years and manofactured some of the events in Hulk's history. I think Black Panther could really use Nightmare right now to erase Hudlin awful run of continity.

[Sharcque]

I just thought of something. Nightmare has manipulated the Hulk for years and manofactured some of the events in Hulk's history. I think Black Panther could really use Nightmare right now to erase Hudlin awful run of continity.
Sounds like money to me!!! :D

[NMoline]

The problem is that, according to the internal story logic, T'Challa just became the Black Panther little less than a few months ago (at most). Cage has been a hero for years and years.

Call it continuity, call it internal story logic, call it common freakin' sense, Hudlin just doesn't have it. According to the stories he himself has written, his continuity on Black Panther makes no sense. Hence the complaints.

Your Logic is all wrong, look at the poster it says absolutely nothing about which Panther it is. T'Challa did just become the Panther but if you read the first few issues you will notice there was a Panther before him and before him. It is as simple as Cage admired the Black Panther the figure not necessarily the man inside the costume.

[Sharcque]

Your Logic is all wrong, look at the poster it says absolutely nothing about which Panther it is. T'Challa did just become the Panther but if you read the first few issues you will notice there was a Panther before him and before him. It is as simple as Cage admired the Black Panther the figure not necessarily the man inside the costume.
Ok, let's say I accept that, that Luke was referring to the BP figure. In your own words, T'Challa did just become the Panther. Weren't issues 1 thru 6 supposed to be a "year 1" story? Those were Hudlin's own words.

[CireNagoh]

A comic should be enjoy by anyone who is willing to read it not to just one demographic.

Hmmmm in a perfect world...yes. In THIS world? that's not how it is. Not all comics appeal to all people. And i don't even think they're SUPPOSED to be. And i don't really see anything wrong with it. All the powerful iconic heroes are..........what complexion?

As for the comment about black people finally being portrayed in a postive light, have you ever heard of Storm? You know, co-leader of the X-Men who's character has been greatly defined by a British white man? What about Luke Cage? Whatever since Bendis put him in New Avengers the character receive new found popularity. Then there is Patriot from Young Avengers who is an inner city youth who lead a superhero team. BTW, that book is written by the writer of the O.C. Let's not forget about the other great black characters Marvel has like The Falcon, Bishop, Ultimate Nick Fury, Jim Rhodes and many more. Christopher Priest is a black man and his run on Black Panther was greatly recieved by the "white comicbook" people as you call them.

And every single one of them were just blackfaced caucasian written characters. Chistopher Priest is one of my favorite writersa nd his BP was HILARIOUS. It was magnificent. But even he directed it away from being afro centric in any way. And i don't KNOCK him for it. It's just how he wanted tow rite it. But me personally? I've waited my whole life for a book like this new BP. Something to where i could look at and say, "i can really GET that." I can chuckle and remember a situation where i was similarly IN. Seeing characters i could identify with.

This is the first time i've ever seen Luke Cage as NOT some kind of caricature. Someone said something to me that made alot of sense. Luke isn't a THUG he's street. He's got a keen intellect. he's got what we call GOOD DAMN SENSE. And that's how i am. And that's how i've NEVER seen any other character in comics BE.

And i'm glad for this book. I also saw someone say that this book is not really geared for the long times. It's geared to the newbs who've never picked up a comic book before. I've got over 20 people who've never picked up a comic before. Who dont' knwo DIDDLY about comics to read this book, and htey all love it.

He's gotta be doing SOMETHING right.

[Sharcque]

He's gotta be doing SOMETHING right.
Sales numbers say otherwise. Aside from the initial issues that everyone wanted to check out, and crossover/tie-in/cool guest star issues, the books numbers aren't that good.

[The Cool Thatguy]

Your Logic is all wrong, look at the poster it says absolutely nothing about which Panther it is. T'Challa did just become the Panther but if you read the first few issues you will notice there was a Panther before him and before him. It is as simple as Cage admired the Black Panther the figure not necessarily the man inside the costume.

Not really. According to the first arc, the outside world knew almost nothing about Black Panther until recently. He was a complete mystery. So why would a convict in prison know more about an international figure than the United States government?

Truth to tell, even going by your logic, it really takes something out of the story to think that Cage's ideal isn't T'Challa so much as it's just the suit of the Black Panther and nothing else. Once again, Hudlin has succeeded in making Panthrer a little less unique

[El Santo]

Not really. According to the first arc, the outside world knew almost nothing about Black Panther until recently. He was a complete mystery. So why would a convict in prison know more about an international figure than the United States government?

Truth to tell, even going by your logic, it really takes something out of the story to think that Cage's ideal isn't T'Challa so much as it's just the suit of the Black Panther and nothing else. Once again, Hudlin has succeeded in making Panthrer a little less unique

Actually, the Black Panther has never had a secret identity; the name of the Black Panther is open information to anyone who wants to know. Even in the current book, Wakanda is still a member of the U.N., and the Black Panther seems to appear without his costume at important diplomatic functions.

Not to mention the time inconsistency with the Spiderman issue that Hudlin also wrote, wherein Black Panther refers to Spiderman as a "fellow Avenger". Wait...if the first arc was a "year one" story, and the first arc happened just a few months ago...when was T'Challa an Avenger?

[Sharcque]

Actually, the Black Panther has never had a secret identity; the name of the Black Panther is open information to anyone who wants to know. Even in the current book, Wakanda is still a member of the U.N., and the Black Panther seems to appear without his costume at important diplomatic functions.

Not to mention the time inconsistency with the Spiderman issue that Hudlin also wrote, wherein Black Panther refers to Spiderman as a "fellow Avenger". Wait...if the first arc was a "year one" story, and the first arc happened just a few months ago...when was T'Challa an Avenger?
My sentiments exactly!

[El Santo]

We definitely agree on the timeline issue. But I do think that, continuity issues aside, BP #10 was a very good issue, probably the best since Romita Jr. left the title. Black Panther has been sort of lost in crossover hell as of late, getting drawn into other storylines that don't really advance the character or his story at all (The HOM issue was decent filler, and I actively despised Wild Kingdom).

Basically, the book hasn't been all that I had hoped for, but it's been good enough to stay on my pull list so far. If you were a fan of the Priest series though, I can understand your feelings. It is a shame to have lost all of that to retconning. I blame Joe Quesada more than I do Reginald Hudlin, though.

[heretic]

It's a good book. Ignore the naysayers and just pick up the latest issue with Luke Cage, you'll definately like it.
I shall say this about Hudlin, he should really stick to writing original characters outside of any preestablished continuity.

One _may_ find it an interesting read if you have never read any books featuring Wakanda or the Black Panther (or set in the MU at all); but the flagrant continuity snafus are comparable to sub-par fanfiction, the efforts at 'Authenticity' are painful, and the casual racism is the icing on the cake.

HTG (Black, Male, and Irritated)

[heretic]

Well for those who like it i'm glad. Because ilike it too. he's not fighting racism, he's showing racism. Showing the face of racism. nothing is racist about him or the lead characters in the book so far as i can tell. As for the comic nerd thing? i think there's a vast difference in dying and crying about continuity other than just reading the story. I guess this is why i like more movies than most people because i can sit there and enjoy what it is in that moment.

Nah i'm a fan of the writers and artists but call me what you like. I personally like the book. I didn't like some issues. Some issues were better than others. And i was reading the book today it kind of hit me. Reggie doesn't write this book for "comicbook white people" or people who've lived their lives in a largely nonblack enviornment.

I say this to all my black brothers and some sista's out there who're reading this. Reggie writes this book for 'US'. We finally have a hero and a book for 'US'. No more fake ass pretend to be black people running around. No more black people being in decidedly ethnic situations being written by ignorant middle aged white men who will try to downplay 'US'. And downplay our situations. I finally have a book that has black people in a postive light and man.

I'm glad as hell for it.

As for Luke Cage being a fan of BP? well the way i see it. he was a fan of Tchaka. or the other black panthers who came before Tchalla. As a black kid in america i wasn't very aware of my african counterparts. As i'm sure MOST innercity kids aren't today.

I took it to mean that look looked up tot eh SYMBOL of the Black Panther more so than.........."TCHALLA, TCHAKA" I took it that way.

lol i just read something that made me chuckle and it really fits. Someone said. "it's a black thang, u wouldn't understand" Unless you WANT to.

I think that fits this book PERFECTLY
....

Who is this "US" you speak of?

Are "US" to be impressed by the combination of pathological isolationism on the 'hero's' part, gibbering incompitence/malice on the villians (read: pretty much every white face), and childish attempts at keeping it real by attempting to mirror the 'Hood in Darkest Africa(tm)?

I could have plotted a far better (not to mention less embarassing) Year One/Origin Story myself and I am no professional by a long shot. If you want a comic book by and for "US" that does not shame "US", hunt up Priest's BP books (they are worth the effort) and/or the Milestone titles... because this does not even come close.

HTG

[CireNagoh]

Who is this "US" you speak of?

Are "US" to be impressed by the combination of pathological isolationism on the 'hero's' part, gibbering incompitence/malice on the villians (read: pretty much every white face), and childish attempts at keeping it real by attempting to mirror the 'Hood in Darkest Africa(tm)?

I could have plotted a far better (not to mention less embarassing) Year One/Origin Story myself and I am no professional by a long shot. If you want a comic book by and for "US" that does not shame "US", hunt up Priest's BP books (they are worth the effort) and/or the Milestone titles... because this does not even come close.

Then stick with THEM and fall in line like a good boy s'posed to. You continue to believe in the universalised ideal that THEY want to do and write. That's on you. Or you can step into reality and appreciate it when another black man finally decides to give the rest of "US" a nod.

Now if you don't want to be a part of it, fine. that's on you. don't like it. I'm glad it's there and i'm glad it's being written for "US" you stick with them and be happy. don't come against a brotha who's doin something for someone else for a change.

difference of view. it's still a good read.

and i'm going to THANK Reginald here also for NOT making Luke Cage a caricature for the FIRST time in his existence.

[Young Avenger]

and i'm going to THANK Reginald here also for NOT making Luke Cage a caricature for the FIRST time in his existence.

I take it you never read The Pulse, Alias or New Avengers. Luke Cage isn't written as a caricature in those books

[The Cool Thatguy]

Or you can step into reality

If you're reading Black Panther for it's politic 'reality', I think when you realize the truth you'll be deeply disappointed. As I've said before, modern Africa is beseiged with problems external and internal, but they in no way resemble Hudlin's depiction. If anything, his writing lessens any message he might try to communicate.

[El Santo]

Then stick with THEM and fall in line like a good boy s'posed to. You continue to believe in the universalised ideal that THEY want to do and write. That's on you. Or you can step into reality and appreciate it when another black man finally decides to give the rest of "US" a nod.

Now if you don't want to be a part of it, fine. that's on you. don't like it. I'm glad it's there and i'm glad it's being written for "US" you stick with them and be happy. don't come against a brotha who's doin something for someone else for a change.

difference of view. it's still a good read.

and i'm going to THANK Reginald here also for NOT making Luke Cage a caricature for the FIRST time in his existence.
That's just unnecessary. Buying into a product simply because it's "For Us, By Us" is about as ignorant as you can get. As for this "ideal that THEY want to do and write"...the previous Black Panther run that everybody is talking about was written by *another* black man, the FIRST black editor in the big two, and possibly among the first to be assigned as an ongoing writer on a book. Taking nothing away from Reginald Hudlin, who is a very accomplished man regardless of how you look at him, Priest (aka Jim Owsley) was a pioneer in comics, and is a brilliant writer no matter how you slice it. The man deserves a lot more credit than he gets, as far as I concerned.

Also, this 'if you're not with US, you're with THEM' crap needs to stop. There isn't just one way to be black, white, or anything else. A person who doesn't read Hudlin's Black Panther doesn't magically become less black for having done so. And the fact that Hudlin's motives for writing the book the way he does are of the noblest intent does not excuse him from the same criticism that any writer would get in his position. He ret-conned the Black Panther, and did so with (apparently) very little thought as to how his new history would meld with the Marvel Universe. This wouldn't even be much of a problem, were it not for the fact that he insists on crossing over with the Marvel Universe in almost every issue.

The book has FLAWS. The book as MERITS. For me, the merits make it worth buying and reading, at least for now. For this other guy, that isn't the case. That doesn't make him a sellout, it makes him a comic book fan, just like you and me.

[Gnarl]

Seems to me being black american comes with a membership badge in a certain culture (compulsory).

Being black african is very, very differnet to that culture I expect.

[El Santo]

Seems to me being black american comes with a membership badge in a certain culture (compulsory).

Being black african is very, very differnet to that culture I expect.

Nothing is compulsory. Nobody can *make* you listen to 50 Cent, nobody can make you avoid surfing, skateboarding, and other "un-black" activities. The only thing being "black" in America does is associate you with a stereotype in the minds of ignorant people. That doesn't mean you have to live up to the stereotype.

[Charles RB]

I like the book and i encourage anyone who's interested in FINALLY seeing a Black Male character get his own BOOK

Which has happened before, quite a few times, since the 1970s.

and show black people in a postive image for ONCE in comics.

Which has also been done before, since at least the 1960s when Lee, Kirby and Ditko deliberately created characters like the Black Panther, Robbie Robertson, Gabe Jones et al. Possibly earlier than that.

And not as sidekick and NOT chasing after a white woman.

Also been done before.

If you read the book with an openmind and not expecting CP to write the book then you WILL indeed like the book.

I went in with an open mind thinking "alright! Black Panther! Hardcore nation of badarses who whomp everyone!" and found it sucked like a black hole.

He doesn't understand how nerdy comic book fans are.

Yeah, damn us nerds for thinking the Black Knight is a really stupid villain with his whole "blah blah civilise the savages" thinking which seem really out of place in modern-day Britain & Europe. And thinking that if the Wakandan air force can't handle a guy with a bucket-helmet & sword riding a flying horse, they must be the shitest airforce ever.

read the book unbiased by ignorance and i dont think you can find TOO much wrong with it.

The politics are shoddy and outdated. The main character is very boring. The villains are mainly wussy second-stringers that don't even get a boost in power & bastardry to make them into serious villains (BATROC THE LEAPER?!). The continuity has been arsed up for no reason. The Americanisations make no sense for a country that is a never-conquered African nation. The Wakandan army can't handle the Rhino or notice the country next door preparing to invade or stop cyborg-zombies from reaching the palace. The taking down of House-Of-M Apocalypse in one issue, with such great ease, SUCKED. Storm saying how Magneto's Earth was racist against mutants that didn't look human made little sense, since there were _loads_ of freakish mutants in House of M.

That's quite a lot!

I say this to all my black brothers and some sista's out there who're reading this. Reggie writes this book for 'US'.

I say this to all CireNagoh's black brothers and sistas out there- sod the Black Panther, go read John Gray's Time Trouble (http://chipandwalter.adiversions.com/). He writes it for 'YOU', or at least the 'YOU' that likes reading comics that have good plots and characterisation (not to mention French-accented pigs with massive meat cleavers).

I finally have a book that has black people in a postive light

You clearly haven't been looking very hard.

Chistopher Priest is one of my favorite writersa nd his BP was HILARIOUS. It was magnificent. But even he directed it away from being afro centric in any way.

Wow, Christopher Priest wrote about the superhero monarch of an unconquered African nation that had superpower status, and didn't make it "Afro-centric"? I'm shocked.

Wait. No I'm not. Why should a comic about an African monarch be "Afro-centric"? (I'm assuming Afro is shorthand for African-American. Note the emphasis on American? That's why BP shouldn't be "Afro-centric")

Or you can step into reality and appreciate it when another black man finally decides to give the rest of "US" a nod.

The Milestone comics never happened then? Pretty sure they did. For Grud' sake, The Crew had two black characters and one Mulatto and had them as interesting, capable characters kicking major arse, and that was only two years ago!

[heretic]

Seems to me being black american comes with a membership badge in a certain culture (compulsory).

Being black african is very, very differnet to that culture I expect.
I am very glad to see someone else point this out.

Nothing is compulsory. Nobody can *make* you listen to 50 Cent, nobody can make you avoid surfing, skateboarding, and other "un-black" activities. The only thing being "black" in America does is associate you with a stereotype in the minds of ignorant people. That doesn't mean you have to live up to the stereotype.
Agreed.

Having grown up accused of race-treason on a regular basis for failure to speak improperly and listen to the right music, young CireNagoh's attitude trods a well-exposed nerve on me as well.

By the way lad, I am waiting to hear who this "US" you speak of is. Last I checked Melanin content is no indicator of a Hive Mind.

HTG

[CireNagoh]

To me it does make you sell outs. This is how it is. This is how it will be. I still say the book is one written for people like me. I've been reading comics since i was 5. And iv'e never seen a book written to where i can see and get my own chuckle with it like there's an inside Joke there. Something that gets into MY culture.

If you guys don't want to see it that way well hell that's up to you. Every other book i've ever seen has been written not like this. There have been a few instances. But so far bookwide? None like this. The milestone books were a great start. They were good reading alla round. But i don't think they touched to ME. And the other folks i know like ME.

You other black people who ally yourselves with them and believe that there's a rainbow coalition out there well you go ahead and dislike it. But from what i've seen in this thread alone there are plenty peopel who do like it. The thread starter asked a question and i'm answering him in my posts.

Enjoy the book fella. Get your friends to reading it too. i buy the books and i give them to kids.

You guys think tht this is something against you because i speak FOR this book and this book says something for ideas and people out there that you're unfamiliar with and that you're not comfortable with.

You think that these charicatures of blackmen is just fine and dandy. Well i don't. And from the guys who agree with me they don't think so either.

not liking the book doesnt make you a SELL OUT. I think it does. But i know it really doesn't. we can all like and dislike what we want. But going against the book because it offends your westernized sensibilities.........that's something NO blackman should feel reticent about. That's my view. Some may not share it, that's fine. difference is what makes the cogs of the world turn and crunch.

I still like the book alot and i still want more poeple to continue reading.

[Sharcque]

To me it does make you sell outs. This is how it is. This is how it will be. I still say the book is one written for people like me. I've been reading comics since i was 5. And iv'e never seen a book written to where i can see and get my own chuckle with it like there's an inside Joke there.
Please, do point out some examples. I'm interested in seeing what you're talking about.

[El Santo]

To me it does make you sell outs. This is how it is. This is how it will be. I still say the book is one written for people like me. I've been reading comics since i was 5. And iv'e never seen a book written to where i can see and get my own chuckle with it like there's an inside Joke there. Something that gets into MY culture.

You need to realize that your's is not the only "black" culture. I'm as dark as anyone, but my people are from Central America. I like skateboarding and punk rock. And if that makes me a sellout in your eyes, then you can suck it. YOU are the sellout, in that case. You've sold out the right of your own "people" to exist as individuals.


You other black people who ally yourselves with them and believe that there's a rainbow coalition out there well you go ahead and dislike it. But from what i've seen in this thread alone there are plenty peopel who do like it. The thread starter asked a question and i'm answering him in my posts.

There is no Rainbow Coalition, nor is there a tangible "them" at which you can rail against. While you're getting your back up against all the white folk, it'll be a "brother" that creeps up behind you and stabs you in the back. That's my take on your philosophy. As far as the book itself goes...hey, I'm buying it, right? So I guess we've got something in common there. Btw, did you check out Birth of a Nation? It's Hudlin, Aaron McGruder, and Kyle Baker all together on one book. A very funny book.

You guys think tht this is something against you because i speak FOR this book and this book says something for ideas and people out there that you're unfamiliar with and that you're not comfortable with.

You think that these charicatures of blackmen is just fine and dandy. Well i don't. And from the guys who agree with me they don't think so either.

Are there problems in how minority characters, particularly black men, are portrayed in comics? Oh hell yes. Is this book the cure? Not really. Making T'Challa more stereotypically African American to make him more accessible isn't exactly what I'd call blazing new trails in black representation in comics. Yes, it's better than the alternative ("Sweet Christmas!"), but if we're talking about ideals here, why settle? I want some black characters who have something to them besides being black. Nobody reads Spider-Man and thinks "hey look, a white guy". Granted, that's because white superheroes are the default. But likewise, if you pick up a copy of, say...Batgirl, is the first thought you have when you see her "oh, a book about an asian chick"? Or are you thinking more about who she is as a character? That's what I want out of a black superhero. I want it to be seamless.

not liking the book doesnt make you a SELL OUT. I think it does. But i know it really doesn't. we can all like and dislike what we want. But going against the book because it offends your westernized sensibilities.........that's something NO blackman should feel reticent about. That's my view. Some may not share it, that's fine. difference is what makes the cogs of the world turn and crunch.

I don't think the issue here is westernized sensibilities, at least for me. Personally, I'd like to see T'Challa being portrayed as more African, rather than African American. I want to see more in the portrayal of Africa than just dusty villages full of superstitious angry mobs who think raping children will cure their AIDS. I want a Black Panther who has badass fights, not three panel spankings. If Hudlin wants to "represent" as a black man with the book, fine. But I'm more concerned with him "representing" as a comic book writer first. Give me the kind of quality beatdowns I get in Bendis/Maleev Daredevil. Your comic is set in Africa. Give me the kind of detailed political drama I get out of Queen & Country. Your protagonist is a freaking genius; give me a science hero. I want to see him make Reed Richards cry. Don't just give me a Mary Sue that breezes through the Evil White Man and hangs out with Luke Cage, and leave it at that.

BP#10 is headed in an interesting direction. Lets hope it stays on track. I'm sad to see the Priest continuity go, but Joe Quesada made that decision, not Reginald Hudlin. If this is the Black Panther we're left with, I want to see him succeed, not turn into The Boondocks in tights.

[Charles RB]

To me it does make you sell outs.

Then congratulations! You're exposing the same attitude as the sodding British National Party! Good for you.

I still say the book is one written for people like me.

People like you want crap comics? People like you want a comic set in Africa and have nobody act like they're from Africa? People like you want outdated political rants?

Why?

I've been reading comics since i was 5. And iv'e never seen a book written to where i can see and get my own chuckle with it like there's an inside Joke there. Something that gets into MY culture.

And that just proves Hudlin's Black Panther sucks. Your culture comes from America. It is an America-based culture that formed in America based on the situations & experiences of black Americans. The Black Panther is the king of an African based nation that was never colonised. There is no logical reason for why it should resemble, in language, culture or attitude, any ethnic culture from America.

It's like someone from Iceland complaining about Spider-Man because it's a comic featuring a white guy but isn't getting into his native culture.

The milestone books were a great start. They were good reading alla round. But i don't think they touched to ME. And the other folks i know like ME.

So, comics created by black guys and starring black guys, intended to be diverse and complex and not be stuck in one stereotype of African-Americans didn't touch you, but a badly-written comic that features African characters actling stereotypically African-American for no reason does touch you? Why is this?

this book says something for ideas and people out there that you're unfamiliar with and that you're not comfortable with.

Oh, I'm familiar and comfortable with the idea of colonialism and the Western world fucking Africa over. The first arc sucked anyway. It sucked because it was attacking attitudes and behaviour that don't exist anymore as the political mainstream. Religious British guy thinking Africa needs to be invaded to civilise it? We stopped thinking like that decades ago. It's just dumb. It's like having the Red Skull there exposing Nazism and presenting this as how modern Germany thinks.

It's especially dumb as there are many modern-day evils that gets dumped on Africa, so why aren't they being represented in supervillain form? Structural Adjustment Programs and their successors, arms dealing, ethnic tensions and genocide, being locked into economic subserviance to the West, Western companies exploiting a lack of African labour laws... That's stuff Africa actually faces these days. It hasn't faced open invasion by Europe to "civilise" it in generations. Why is Hudlin acting like it has?

And I'm still pissed off that last time I saw Klaw, he was a powerful and dangerous creature made of pure sound that used that power in creative & brutal ways that the Panther defeats through violence & cunning- and then Hudlin decided to have him be a human with a cyborg arm that shoots lasers and is easily killed in a few pages.

You think that these charicatures of blackmen is just fine and dandy.

The Milestone characters and the Panther under Priest were charictures of black men? The characters written and drawn and created by black men? Jaysis. That's a very... interesting attitude to take on them, especially when Hudlin's Black Panther: House Of M has the Panther as a playa who says "you got me straight trippin, bo" and you can't get more of a charicture than that.

But going against the book because it offends your westernized sensibilities.........that's something NO blackman should feel reticent about.

You want the Black Panther to get into your culture. Your culture is Western. It comes from America. I'm not sure how people have Westernised sensibilities if they want Wakanda to act like it's an African nation.

Though hey, if Westernized sensibilities means liking good plot, characterisation and attention to continuity...

[BobC]

I never thought I'd see the day the Black Panther would be so cheapened. I get so tired of phony black American "identity" politics. Rap sucks.

[Young Avenger]

I never thought I'd see the day the Black Panther would be so cheapened. I get so tired of phony black American "identity" politics. Rap sucks.

Just think of this Black Panther as "What If...Black Panther Was On BET?" That's how this crappy book feels like.

[El Santo]

I have several friends from Africa. One of my best friends from college, actually. Another is a guy I knew in New York who was kind of a mentor to me. I think your view of Africans is skewed if you think that T'Challa accurately represents an African king. I already said my piece on this issue though.

But one thing you might need to know is that Luke Cage *does* have a white girlfriend (she's not blonde...), and is currently expecting a child with her. Also, he has been portrayed as a "real" person for years now...I guess you didn't get the memo about him appearing in Alias, Daredevil, and The Pulse, huh?

[Jake V]

I have several friends from Africa. One of my best friends from college, actually. Another is a guy I knew in New York who was kind of a mentor to me. I think your view of Africans is skewed if you think that T'Challa accurately represents an African king. I already said my piece on this issue though.

But one thing you might need to know is that Luke Cage *does* have a white girlfriend (she's not blonde...), and is currently expecting a child with her. Also, he has been portrayed as a "real" person for years now...I guess you didn't get the memo about him appearing in Alias, Daredevil, and The Pulse, huh?
Cage is also a New Avenger, one of the central characters in Marvel's top selling, most mainstream book.

[El Santo]

New Avengers isn't the best example of Cage being well-used as a character though, to be fair. He's kind of a background guy in that book.

[Jake V]

New Avengers isn't the best example of Cage being well-used as a character though, to be fair. He's kind of a background guy in that book.
But do you really expect him to remain as one? I mean, now that the Sentry and Ronin arcs are done, and they're integrated into the team, is Bendis really going to let a character he has such an obvious affection for fade into the background?

[El Santo]

Hard to say. But at the same time, Luke has been all over The Pulse, so I'm not really faulting Bendis for how he writes him in NA. I think the next arc focuses on Spider-Woman more than Cage, but I'm sure he'll have his turn. And in the meantime, he's one of the protagonists in The Pulse.

[CireNagoh]

The way i see it you have character Archetypes. I'm not going to go down the list and give u all the character types that everyone has fit into except this current one i've been reading here. just not interested enough in doing so. if you don't want to figure them out then it's up to you. i've got a headache.

but yes, all of the previous characterizations before? have fit neatly into a character archtype.

yes i know Luke is witha white woman currently but that was someone else's story. That's when they were fitting him into archetypes. i am willing to bet my life's blood if Hudlin was writing that or if they hadn't already done it. Hudlin wouldn't have Luke with a white woman. Contrary to popular belief, and what everyone would have you believe in america, the majority of us don't want white women.

But that's another topic. what i'm saying is before NOW. Luke has been just thrown around and written as this guy who just smacked of not being real to me. His thoughts and dialogue in this book here?

they struck a cord in me. and alot of other people. So if you don't like it then hey i can't do anything about that. I liked Priests run as much as anyone else. Priest brought BP from the grave. I think Priest could have gotten a lil more humor into BP. Humor shows another depth of character i think.

ii guess some of you dont' think so. Well i do. the africans i know? When i spent my time in africa? have GREAT senses of humor. They're practical jokers and just funny ass people to be around. They can speak just as colloquial as anyone else.

There's a difference in black people. even people from the motherland. And no i don't expect you guys to know what it is but the few black guys who're on this board i do expect them to know what i'm talking about. they know what the differences are.

But i still like the book and i thank Reginald for brightening up my day with characters i can identify with FINALLY. And i suggest anyone who is reading this to pick up the BP and give it a try.

[Young Avenger]

yes i know Luke is witha white woman currently but that was someone else's story. That's when they were fitting him into archetypes. i am willing to bet my life's blood if Hudlin was writing that or if they hadn't already done it. Hudlin wouldn't have Luke with a white woman. Contrary to popular belief, and what everyone would have you believe in america, the majority of us don't want white women.

What's wrong with Luke Cage being with Jessica? Unless your a racist I see nothing wrong with it.

[LordAllMighty]

I think those archtypes that Ciren was talking about before is the BlackMan/WhiteWoman. Trying to combine the races like that is a common thing. Off the tip top of my head it seems to me that more black characters in marvel are with a white mate than not. They even did it to BP with Priest's run.

Not liking to see misogyny doesn't make you a racist. It is rather prevalent in comics though. A question i have, how many african monarchs do you guys know?

[LordAllMighty]

And another thing, i understand what you mean Ciren about this BP being for US. Don't lose heart there's alot of US out there. Reggie knows how much we like th ebook as well.

[Alan2099]

Oh for crying out loud, you're giving us the "you're not black so you wouldn't get it," bit? I didn't think anybody around here would sink that low for an arguement.

[El Santo]

I think those archtypes that Ciren was talking about before is the BlackMan/WhiteWoman. Trying to combine the races like that is a common thing. Off the tip top of my head it seems to me that more black characters in marvel are with a white mate than not. They even did it to BP with Priest's run.

Not liking to see misogyny doesn't make you a racist. It is rather prevalent in comics though. A question i have, how many african monarchs do you guys know?

Do you even know what misogyny is? How does Luke Cage's relationship with Jessica Jones qualify as misogyny?

Priest's Black Panther had a *lot* of ex-girlfriends...law of averages had one of them being white. Big deal. He spent most of the book chasing Monica Lynne, or nobody at all, if I recall correctly.

What other black Marvel characters are dating white women?

[El Santo]

The way i see it you have character Archetypes. I'm not going to go down the list and give u all the character types that everyone has fit into except this current one i've been reading here. just not interested enough in doing so. if you don't want to figure them out then it's up to you. i've got a headache.

but yes, all of the previous characterizations before? have fit neatly into a character archtype.

yes i know Luke is witha white woman currently but that was someone else's story. That's when they were fitting him into archetypes. i am willing to bet my life's blood if Hudlin was writing that or if they hadn't already done it. Hudlin wouldn't have Luke with a white woman. Contrary to popular belief, and what everyone would have you believe in america, the majority of us don't want white women.

Okay, this right here? This is misogyny. Reducing Jessica Jones, a three-dimensional character whose romance with Luke Cage has been a long, drawn-out, well-defined affair, to merely "a white woman" stereotype, simply because she's white, and female, and going out with a black male...that's misogyny. And racism.

But that's another topic. what i'm saying is before NOW. Luke has been just thrown around and written as this guy who just smacked of not being real to me. His thoughts and dialogue in this book here?

they struck a cord in me. and alot of other people. So if you don't like it then hey i can't do anything about that. I liked Priests run as much as anyone else. Priest brought BP from the grave. I think Priest could have gotten a lil more humor into BP. Humor shows another depth of character i think.

Priest's book was more funny than Hudlin's. I like Hudlin's book too, but Priest was funnier by a longshot.

ii guess some of you dont' think so. Well i do. the africans i know? When i spent my time in africa? have GREAT senses of humor. They're practical jokers and just funny ass people to be around. They can speak just as colloquial as anyone else.

I suppose so. But while humor is universal, Black American slang is not. And would you really expect a tribe of never-colonized Africans to behave like African-Americans?

There's a difference in black people. even people from the motherland. And no i don't expect you guys to know what it is but the few black guys who're on this board i do expect them to know what i'm talking about. they know what the differences are.

But i still like the book and i thank Reginald for brightening up my day with characters i can identify with FINALLY. And i suggest anyone who is reading this to pick up the BP and give it a try.

I agree that Hudlin's book is worth a try. But it does have it's flaws, chief among them that he doesn't know how, or doesn't care to, write about a group of people with a culture different from his own. Wakanda in his book is basically what would happen if you dropped Brooklyn in the middle of Africa, and gave them a bunch of hi-tech weapons.

[Expletive Deleted]

He means miscegenation.

You guys have been staying relatively civil on this one, and I like that. Keep it up.

[abyss]

yes i know Luke is witha white woman currently but that was someone else's story. That's when they were fitting him into archetypes. i am willing to bet my life's blood if Hudlin was writing that or if they hadn't already done it. Hudlin wouldn't have Luke with a white woman. Contrary to popular belief, and what everyone would have you believe in america, the majority of us don't want white women.
Whats soo wrong with Luke with a white woman?....you talk about BP is a book for "you"...well what about others. Both now have a child a bi-racial child I might add. Now marvel doenst have many mixed characters...sooo I kinda glad there together because as a bi-racial male I don't have anyone represtnivng my backgroud in the Marvel universie cept for Kasper Kole. So if there union brings bout anoter mixed character i dont see anything wrong with it.

[El Santo]

He means miscegenation.

You guys have been staying relatively civil on this one, and I like that. Keep it up.

If he really meant miscegenation, and is railing against THAT in a comic book, well...I don't think I have anything civil to say in response to that. Suffice it to say that I don't cotton to that kind of racism very well.

[Charles RB]

but yes, all of the previous characterizations before? have fit neatly into a character archtype.

Eh? You're saying every other writer on Luke Cage has neatly made him into an ideal example of a character that other characters are based on? Not getting how that's bad. Are you sure you meant archetype?

yes i know Luke is witha white woman currently but that was someone else's story. That's when they were fitting him into archetypes.

Not quite sure I get how that fits into an archetype.

i am willing to bet my life's blood if Hudlin was writing that or if they hadn't already done it. Hudlin wouldn't have Luke with a white woman.

So? He wasn't writing Alias or The Pulse.

Contrary to popular belief, and what everyone would have you believe in america, the majority of us don't want white women.

The majority of "you" aren't Luke Cage.

what i'm saying is before NOW. Luke has been just thrown around and written as this guy who just smacked of not being real to me.

His thoughts and dialogue in this book here?

they struck a cord in me.

How? The only thing you've brought up that struck a cord with you is that Cage stays in areas where he's most needed- and that's not something Hudlin came up with, that's something that's been done with Cage since forever. It's part of the point of Cage.

the africans i know? When i spent my time in africa? have GREAT senses of humor. They're practical jokers and just funny ass people to be around. They can speak just as colloquial as anyone else.

Are any of them warrior-monarchs continuously focused on politics & strategy, who were forced into the role early as a child when their father was killed, and have continuously faced personal losses & brutal challenges since then? I doubt they are.

And it's not humour that's the problem. It's that the humour sucks and seems to be specifically based around black American stereotypes (though we are dealing with the guy in charge of BET, so what should I expect?), and the humour that isn't is either based on other stereotypes or is just plain naff. The humour on Priest's Panther run, on the other hand? Bloody funny.

the few black guys who're on this board i do expect them to know what i'm talking about.

These would be the same guys I'm seeing saying "gah! Hudlin's Panther sucks!"?

Also, I don't believe you just gave me the "you're not black! You wouldn't understand! Grrr!" argument. Leave it out.

But i still like the book and i thank Reginald for brightening up my day with characters i can identify with FINALLY.

If you're heavily identifying with a warrior, monarch and strategic powerhouse, that suggests Hudlin has totally screwed up on characterisation. Like the character, sure, but this is a guy who is nothing like you in anyway. Where's the point of identification?


Not liking to see misogyny doesn't make you a racist.

No, it makes you a feminist, since misogyny is the hatred of women.

If you mean miscegenation, then I fail to see how not liking it doesn't make you a racist. Being against people of different races getting together, that's one of the big hallmarks of being racist.

as a bi-racial male I don't have anyone represtnivng my backgroud in the Marvel universie cept for Kasper Kole.

Ouch. :(

[LordAllMighty]

my bad it is misegenation. I've never been to Africa myself. So i don't know exactly how Tchalla is SUPPOSED to act. But i really have no problem with how he's been portrayed so far. I like the book. I like the shock value. I think it's an injection in a character who'd gotten stale.

When black characters get so "above it all" You lose a large black audience. And i think that's what Cire is trying to say most of all. Most black characters are ABOVE such things as race relations. They're ABOVE such things as prejudice and racism. And i think it's the writers and alot of readers way of pretending that those things don't exist. I myself work in the corporate world. And i experience "on the side" racism all the time.

So i can relate to those situations. I can give a chuckle when i see these things in a comicbook.

[Sharcque]

I'm just having a hard time understanding what "inside jokes" you guys are getting out of Black Panther. I don't think racism, even in comics, is funny, if that's what you're talking about.

[Charles RB]

So i don't know exactly how Tchalla is SUPPOSED to act.

Like the head of state for a superpower nation of never-colonised warriors who haven't had much contact with how Westerners speak.

I like the shock value.

What shock value? The biggest shock was discovering how Wakanda was being invaded so easily by a bunch of wussy villains. Klaw was actually weaker than he'd been in decades, which doesn't make T'Challa killing him very impressive.

I think it's an injection in a character who'd gotten stale.

When did he get stale again? Because the last time he was stale was before Priest came along and took him back to his high-tech warrior-king roots, turning him into a calm, collected strategist and combatant who could bring you down before you even realised he'd done anything. An A-List figure who dealt with time warps, CIA-backed attempted coups, a growing threat that he may end up turning into a villain, ethnic & tribal conflicts, and the threat of war between all the superpower nations of the Marvel Universe.

That's not the sign of a stale character.

When black characters get so "above it all" You lose a large black audience.

Well, where the arsing hell was this large black audience when The Crew was running? The black (and Mulatto) characters there certainly weren't "above it all", and they were more interesting than Hudlin's Panther. Plus it had those funky covers.

I liked The Crew, damn it. I wanted more.

Most black characters are ABOVE such things as race relations. They're ABOVE such things as prejudice and racism.

No, it's just some of the writer's just didn't want to write about race relations, prejudice and racism for whatever reasons. The characters were never "above" dealing with it.

Except for Black Panther, who should be above it because he's on a completely different playing field to other black heroes. He's monarch of a foreign nation. The main race relations, prejudice and racism that he has to deal with most of the time is race relations, prejudice and racism amonst differing tribes & groups within Wakanda.

You want a character that deals with race relations as they exist in America, fine, but T'Challa's completely the wrong character for that. He's not American, for a start.

And i think it's the writers and alot of readers way of pretending that those things don't exist.

Some of them, maybe. Others just aren't interested in writing about it. Besides, hands up how many people want race relations et al to be dealt with in every comic a black character is ever in? It would get stupid.

So i can relate to those situations. I can give a chuckle when i see these things in a comicbook.

Point is, Black Panther's the wrong comic for them to be in. It's a comic about a head of state. I like Optimus Prime, but I can't relate to his situations because I'm not a robot Messiah-figure general in an eternal war.

[El Santo]

my bad it is misegenation. I've never been to Africa myself. So i don't know exactly how Tchalla is SUPPOSED to act. But i really have no problem with how he's been portrayed so far. I like the book. I like the shock value. I think it's an injection in a character who'd gotten stale.

When black characters get so "above it all" You lose a large black audience. And i think that's what Cire is trying to say most of all. Most black characters are ABOVE such things as race relations. They're ABOVE such things as prejudice and racism. And i think it's the writers and alot of readers way of pretending that those things don't exist. I myself work in the corporate world. And i experience "on the side" racism all the time.

So i can relate to those situation