What is "White".

[Typo Lad]

So in another thread, I took offense at being called "White". Which prompted the ever delightful west3man to ask...

Morts, how do you define "white" - ethnically speaking, of course.

Damn good question and one I'm still trying to word - but how do you define it?

[Tadhg]

White is a skin color, not a race. If you have white skin, you're white.

[west3man]

I use the "duck theory." Highly scientific.

Basically, if you're white-colored, you're "white," as far as I'm concerned. Latinos put a hypertime whammy on that theory, but a white-colored Latino person is gonna be put in the "white" category until I hear an accent or something that clues me in... and maybe even then they'll remain "white," in my mind. Depends on the individual, but that's my highly advanced methodology.

[west3man]

White is a skin color, not a race. If you have white skin, you're white.
So, very, very light-skinned bi-racial (Black/white) people are white, as long as they're about your shade o' white?

[JeffreyWKramer]

I use the "duck theory." Highly scientific.
And quite apt. Howard the Duck is white, after all. So are Donald, Daisy, Scrooge, Huey, Dewey and Louie.

[Typo Lad]

So, very, very light-skinned bi-racial (Black/white) people are white, as long as they're about your shade o' white?

I heart you. I heart you muchly.

[ragnarok_2012]

I've always wanted to ask this of a white supremacist:

If whites should be in charge, then should there be a hierarchy based on how white you are? If this is the case, would the whitest of the white rule over the less white members?

'Cause it'd be weird seeing an albino oligarchy.

Though once I asked that, I have images of being beaten by guys who drive away in pickup trucks.

[Davideaux]

This is the question that vexed Herman Melville.

[SteelTownr]

I use the "duck theory." Highly scientific.

Basically, if you're white-colored, you're "white," as far as I'm concerned. Latinos put a hypertime whammy on that theory, but a white-colored Latino person is gonna be put in the "white" category until I hear an accent or something that clues me in... and maybe even then they'll remain "white," in my mind. Depends on the individual, but that's my highly advanced methodology.

What about Latinos that look Black?

Mark B.

[Tadhg]

So, very, very light-skinned bi-racial (Black/white) people are white, as long as they're about your shade o' white?


There's no bi-racial people my shade of white.

Edit: Seriously though how is:

f you have white skin, you're white.

Any different from your thoughts:

Basically, if you're white-colored, you're "white," as far as I'm concerned.

[jessecuster]

One of my favorite jokes goes like this:

When I born, I black.
When I grow up, I black.
When I go in sun, I black.
When I cold, I black.
When I scared, I black.
When I sick, I black.
And when I die, I still black.
You white folks...... When you born, you pink.
When you grow up, you white.
When you go in sun, you red.
When you cold, you blue.
When you scared, you yellow.
When you sick, you green.
When you bruised you purple.
And when you die, you gray........
So who you callin' colored.

[SteelTownr]

And quite apt. Howard the Duck is white, after all. So are Donald, Daisy, Scrooge, Huey, Dewey and Louie.

But Daffy remains one of our finest black actors.

Mark B.

[Dennis K]

And quite apt. Howard the Duck is white, after all. So are Donald, Daisy, Scrooge, Huey, Dewey and Louie.


So Daffy is the token duck?

[JeffreyWKramer]

But Daffy remains one of our finest black actors.

Mark B.

He complicates matters. He's the result of Daisy's affair with Goofy. Disney was ashamed, so they shuffled him off to Warner Bros.

[Dennis K]

But Daffy remains one of our finest black actors.

Mark B.


One of us should be bothered that we seem to think alike.

[west3man]

What about Latinos that look Black?

Mark B.
My highly scientific theory says...

http://images.amazon.com/images/P/B00001ZWV7.01.PT01.LZZZZZZZ.gif




...whatever the heck THAT means.

But yeah, I just consider'em Black until I pick up on a clue... Basically, whatever you can "pass" as, is what column I put you in... so features count, too. Language and accents count, but only so much.

[Tom]

I use White the same way I use Black, as shorthand for a racial designation. To me, White equals caucasion the same way Black equals Negroid.

[SteelTownr]

One of us should be bothered that we seem to think alike.

To be fair, I stole that line from a Comedian.

The FBI will have to investigate him, not me!

:)

Mark B.

[JeffreyWKramer]

Seriously, I wish people would just focus on the fact that we're all human, and that in the case of most "racial" groups (i.e., pretty much all of them except for the Australian aborigines and a few very reclusive tribal societies), the amount of genetic variation within groups is the same as the amount between groups.

[west3man]

There's no bi-racial people my shade of white.

Edit: Seriously though how is:



Any different from your thoughts:
The rest of those posts tell the tale.

For one thing, I think ethnicity is a factor. You apparently don't.

[SteelTownr]

He complicates matters. He's the result of Daisy's affair with Goofy. Disney was ashamed, so they shuffled him off to Warner Bros.

Was this on an E! True Hollywood Story?

I'd love to watch that one!

Mark B.

[west3man]

But Daffy remains one of our finest black actors.

Mark B.
...and one of our blackest fine actors. Hell, he IS the blackest... although Charlie Murphy's lips might give him a run for his money.

[SteelTownr]

My highly scientific theory says...

http://images.amazon.com/images/P/B00001ZWV7.01.PT01.LZZZZZZZ.gif




...whatever the heck THAT means.

But yeah, I just consider'em Black until I pick up on a clue... Basically, whatever you can "pass" as, is what column I put you in... so features count, too. Language and accents count, but only so much.

I think that we should just have a racial draft every year, like on the Chappelle Show to solve the issue.

Mark B.

[Typo Lad]

What is White?

Good question.

First off, I think there’s a difference between White and “white”. Skin can be “white” (even though it is really peachish, but whatever) without the person being “white”, as West points out with his Bi-Racial and Latina examples.

I hate the term White, mainly because it’s so vague. It doesn’t refer to anything “real”, you know? It’s subjective.

I, myself, refer to myself as an Askenazick Jew. That means I’m of Eastern-European descent (specifically, German, Polish and Russian. I’m always at war with myself).

Unlike some Jews, I don’t know if I can trace my lineage back further than Eastern Europe. Our friends the Goldstiens are Kohanim, and as such are Ashkenazick Jews descended from Aharon. Kohanim don’t marry converts, so it’s basically a straight line. It’s actually one of the ways that they were able to link Beta Israel, the African Jews, to the Jewish people. There are also certain diseases, like Tay-Sachs, that primarily affect Ashkenazim.

Some “whites” are Alngo-Saxons, some are Galic, some are… what’s the right word for German?

In a perfect world, we wouldn’t feel a need to label everyone. However, if you’re going to make a label, have it make sense.

White makes no sense.

---

One interesting thing my father once pointed out is that Jews “Look White and vote Black.” Before you shoot him or me, it was a quote. Another person pointed out that once upon a time, Jews were doubly screwed because the Black population counted them as part of the White majority and the White population saw them as minorities. In the last few decades this has flipped, with the exceptions of Crown Heights a few years back.

[west3man]

I use White the same way I use Black, as shorthand for a racial designation. To me, White equals caucasion the same way Black equals Negroid.
I've used the terms, but had the feeling that I didn't have their true definitions down. For others like me...

I give you caucasian (http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=caucasian) and negroid. (http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=negroid) Note the overlap.

[Fabian]

Latinos put a hypertime whammy on that theory, but a white-colored Latino person is gonna be put in the "white" category until I hear an accent or something that clues me in... and maybe even then they'll remain "white," in my mind.
What about Latinos that look Black?
We are such a wildcard. We're the Joker in the deck of genetics.


White is white. If you don't have some sort of tan without the aid of the sun, congratulations you're white and won't face discrimination. Now here's a fine plethora of other cultures you can steal style from.



This post was tongue in cheek

[Typo Lad]

He complicates matters. He's the result of Daisy's affair with Goofy. Disney was ashamed, so they shuffled him off to Warner Bros.

It should be noted that Goofy was not only Black, but Jewish as well. That's why he wore the hat - to cover his scullcap.

[JeffreyWKramer]

Really, it makes more sense to think of ethnicity as a cultural thing than a racial thing. Lighter-skinned black folk and darker-skinned black folk might both identify themselves as black, and be accepted as members of that culture.

Morts, the points you were making in that other thread are part of what I don't really understand about Jewish folk... and, honestly, I think they relate to why some Jewish folk exhibit an appalling degree of racial prejudice, particularly given how much prejudice Jews have themselves experienced. Judaism isn't a genetic phenomenon, not in any meaningful manner.

I'll take that back, of course, if you can demonstrate some meaningful genetic heritage linking yourself, Sigmund Freud, Arial Sharon and Sammy Davis, Jr.

[SteelTownr]

I'm really impressed that this took two pages before feathers got ruffled.

The over/under was half a page.

Mark B.

[Tom]

I've used the terms, but had the feeling that I didn't have their true definitions down. For others like me...

I give you caucasian (http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=caucasian) and negroid. (http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=negroid) Note the overlap.
Alright, to be both more practical and more accurate, I use White to refer to people of European descent and Black to denote people of sub-saharan African descent.

[west3man]

Alright, to be both more practical and more accurate, I use White to refer to people of European descent and Black to denote people of sub-saharan African descent.
I mentioned the overlap as a point of interest, not as a rebuttal, btw. I wasn't suggesting/implying that YOU didn't know what either term meant.

[Kid Omega]

Seriously, I wish people would just focus on the fact that we're all human, and that in the case of most "racial" groups (i.e., pretty much all of them except for the Australian aborigines and a few very reclusive tribal societies), the amount of genetic variation within groups is the same as the amount between groups.

That's a good point.

I think this whole discussion comes down to what words are okay to describe individuals.

White, black, Asian.... these are not specific groups, but vague ways to describe someone.

Mort seems to not like being described as "white".

It seems like a nit to pick... if I had to decribe him to someone that was looking for him in a crowd, I would say, "A white kid in a ballcap, shorter than me, brown hair."

I dunno. I guess if you put racial weight in these terms, they mean something more.


-a

[Tom]

I'll take that back, of course, if you can demonstrate some meaningful genetic heritage linking yourself, Sigmund Freud, Arial Sharon and Sammy Davis, Jr.
Or better yet, demonstrate some meaningful genetic difference between say himself and the average Eastern European.

[Typo Lad]

Really, it makes more sense to think of ethnicity as a cultural thing than a racial thing. Lighter-skinned black folk and darker-skinned black folk might both identify themselves as black, and be accepted as members of that culture.

Now this... this I buy.

Morts, the points you were making in that other thread are part of what I don't really understand about Jewish folk... and, honestly, I think they relate to why some Jewish folk exhibit an appalling degree of racial prejudice, particularly given how much prejudice Jews have themselves experienced. Judaism isn't a genetic phenomenon, not in any meaningful manner.

I'll take that back, of course, if you can demonstrate some meaningful genetic heritage linking yourself, Sigmund Freud, Arial Sharon and Sammy Davis, Jr.

Myself? No.

But I can link David Goldstien to a member of the Lemba tribe. Does that count?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kohan#Recent_genetic_findings:_The_Kohen_gene

[Typo Lad]

Or better yet, demonstrate some meaningful genetic difference between say himself and the average Eastern European.

The closest I can get to is this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tay_sachs but my data is out of date. Thanks to blood screening (which many Rabbis will now not officiate without), Tay-Sachs is becomind less and less of a "Jewish" problem.

[Fabian]

Well all you non-Jaxicans look alike anyway.


That's what it comes down too, you can tell the subtle differences with people with your genetics, but damned if you can see which tribe of Eskimos is from which part of the globe. I know I can't.

Kind of like how I can see Guapo Mendez and tell he's Latino even though he's fair skinned

[Lone Ranger]

This looks like a good time to point out that on the 'Elevator News' in my building today - the word of the day was Albescent, which means 'becoming white'.

[JeffreyWKramer]

Myself? No.

But I can link David Goldstien to a member of the Lemba tribe. Does that count?

Not really, because there are Jews who are not really "genetically Jewish." Beyond that, there are a lot of "genetic Jews" who aren't culturally Jewish.

Really, while I know you are not a race-discriminating guy, I think this sort of mindset - this "purity of Jewish blood" thing - is part of why you see stupid things like the discrimination Jews of Yemeni heritage face in Israel.

Emotionally and intellectually, it strikes me as ironically close to "master race" thinking, and factually, it makes only marginally more sense than did the skewed Nazi racial philosophies, with their skewed concept of "Aryan" and such.

[Lone Ranger]

Alright, to be both more practical and more accurate, I use White to refer to people of European descent and Black to denote people of sub-saharan African descent.

That's basically the camp I fall into as well. It just for basic categoization - if someone really wants to hold themselves out as Black Irish or White Russian - that's fine, but you're still white to me in a basic sense.

[Fabian]

This looks like a good time to point out that on the 'Elevator News' in my building today - the word of the day was Albescent, which means 'becoming white'.
Did you albescentize today? You know, woke up to your Classic Rock station, turned on your morning Wayne Brady show, ate your mayo sandwiches, put on khaki pants and blue shirt, and walk with a broken rhythm?

[Kid Omega]

It's a weird thing... no one wants to be discriminated against, but people always seem to be segregating themselves.

-a

[Shellhead]

We are such a wildcard. We're the Joker in the deck of genetics.


That's one way of looking at it. But yeah, hispanics can be black, white, indian, or asian. As for skin color, my ex-girlfriend Amy was half-Irish and half-Kenyan, but she basically looked like a white woman with a great sun tan. She even had freckles. She usually used a hair iron thing to straighten her hair, so the only way that I could tell she was mixed was the shape of her nose.

I'm still looking forward to a time when people are mixed together enough that nobody cares about skin color anymore. Then we can focus on the non-genetic reasons for hating each other, like religion and nationality.

[west3man]

Did you albescentize today? I take a little bass out of my voice, every day. Usually between meals.

[Typo Lad]

Not really, because there are Jews who are not really "genetically Jewish." Beyond that, there are a lot of "genetic Jews" who aren't culturally Jewish.

Well, that's because as well as being a racial identity, Judiasm is a culture as well. You can "choose" to be, or not to be Jewish - but that doesn't mean there aren't genetic "tells" that still set you apart.

Which is both bad and good.

Really, while I know you are not a race-discriminating guy, I think this sort of mindset - this "purity of Jewish blood" thing - is part of why you see stupid things like the discrimination Jews of Yemeni heritage face in Israel.

See, now this I can agree with. I think some people take the idea of "Judiasm as a Race" too far.

Emotionally and intellectually, it strikes me as ironically close to "master race" thinking, and factually, it makes only marginally more sense than did the skewed Nazi racial philosophies, with their skewed concept of "Aryan" and such.

You should see how Beta Israel are treated in the State of Israel. Here are people who want nothing more to emprace their newly rediscovered Jewish culture, and they're basically forced to cloister together by an unnaceepting core group of Ashkenazim and Sephardim.

I can't imagine what it's going to be like for B'Nai Menashe, the newly rediscovered Lost Tribe in India.

How about I just say I don't like the term "white" period. I don't like any label other than one I choose for myself.

That would be "jew", "Husband" and "father", btw.

[Fabian]

That's one way of looking at it. But yeah, hispanics can be black, white, indian, or asian. As for skin color, my ex-girlfriend Amy was half-Irish and half-Kenyan, but she basically looked like a white woman with a great sun tan. She even had freckles. She usually used a hair iron thing to straighten her hair, so the only way that I could tell she was mixed was the shape of her nose.
You should had seen when me and the other girl I dated who was half-irish and half-mexican would go out, people thought she was greek or from another mediterranean descent

[Typo Lad]

It's a weird thing... no one wants to be discriminated against, but people always seem to be segregating themselves.

-a

There's segregation and there's racial idenity. Two different thing. As Jeffrey rightly points out, it can be taken to extreme by anyone. However, I freely admit that I'm more likely to give my patronage to a Jewish business rather than a non-Jewish one. Part of this has to do with the fact that if they're Sabbath observant, my going to another store takes away a vital sale that would allow them to observe as I do. Who am I to ruin someone elses Sabbath?

That's as far as it goes though. Beyond "Shomer Shabbos" I will go to anyone - Ashkenazik or Sephardic, Litvish or Chasidic, Etheopian or Indian.

[JeffreyWKramer]

It's a weird thing... no one wants to be discriminated against, but people always seem to be segregating themselves.


There is a lot of question as to the degree to which we may or may not be wired to favor folk based on closeness of genetic kinship (that's definitely very much open to question), but there is no question that we are neurologically wired to categorize. Much of the earliest stuff babies learn is to categorize things in terms of "this or that" - "mom" vs. "not mom", "food" vs. "not food", etc. Thus, we are also wired to define groups - "us" and "them."

Thankfully, since we are humans, most of our cognitive functioning isn't hard-wired, and we can learn complex patterns of thought contrary to the basic wiring tendencies. I think it would be great if we did a lot more of that in regard to race/ethnicity. That's not to say I think there is necessarily anything wrong with a person identifying him- or herself in terms of being Jewish or Catholic or African-American or Latina or American or German or whatever, or in taking some pride in those things. But, I do think it would be a good thing for people to give an awful lot more attention and thought to the commonalities between all human beings than to the differences, and a lot more consideration of our common membership in the human race.

[Lone Ranger]

Did you albescentize today? You know, woke up to your Classic Rock station, turned on your morning Wayne Brady show, ate your mayo sandwiches, put on khaki pants and blue shirt, and walk with a broken rhythm?

As we move into November, my skin is definitely albescent.

[JeffreyWKramer]

Well, that's because as well as being a racial identity, Judiasm is a culture as well. You can "choose" to be, or not to be Jewish - but that doesn't mean there aren't genetic "tells" that still set you apart.

Sure. And Tiger Woods has some different genetic "tells." But those apparently don't matter to him, nor should they matter to anyone else on any practical level.

[Lone Ranger]

As for skin color, my ex-girlfriend Amy was half-Irish and half-Kenyan, but she basically looked like a white woman with a great sun tan. She even had freckles. She usually used a hair iron thing to straighten her hair, so the only way that I could tell she was mixed was the shape of her nose.

I truly believe that in 500 years - after enough mixed race procreation, the human race will be much better looking than it is today.

[Davideaux]

I truly believe that in 500 years - after enough mixed race procreation, the human race will be much better looking than it is today.

better looking but fatter

[Typo Lad]

better looking but fatter

Some people need it.

[cactusmaac]

Not really, because there are Jews who are not really "genetically Jewish." Beyond that, there are a lot of "genetic Jews" who aren't culturally Jewish.

Really, while I know you are not a race-discriminating guy, I think this sort of mindset - this "purity of Jewish blood" thing - is part of why you see stupid things like the discrimination Jews of Yemeni heritage face in Israel.

Emotionally and intellectually, it strikes me as ironically close to "master race" thinking, and factually, it makes only marginally more sense than did the skewed Nazi racial philosophies, with their skewed concept of "Aryan" and such.

I'd have thought that would be due to them looking Arabic as opposed to master-race concepts.

[Fabian]

As we move into November, my skin is definitely albescent.
I feel like this a class project now


Anyhow, sociology wise, all these mingling of the races is a somewhat new thing with the advances of modern global transportation being made publically accesible for a little less than half a century. We're sexing each other up faster than we can categorize.

[Fabian]

I truly believe that in 500 years - after enough mixed race procreation, the human race will be much better looking than it is today.
Those that make us who are already mixed 500 years ahead of you ugly crackers?

[JeffreyWKramer]

I'd have thought that would be due to them looking Arabic as opposed to master-race concepts.

All Jews once looked more or less Arabic. The historical Jesus probably looked more like Yassar Arafat than he did the artistic portrayals of Jesus you see in most European and American churches.

Morts maybe can tell you a lot more than I can about how the Yemeni Jews are often treated as "not Jewish enough" in modern Israel, though. The "blood" thing is definitely a component, though.

[SteelTownr]

better looking but fatter

All Pro Sports will be played on "Hover-Rounds"

Mark B.

[SteelTownr]

All Jews once looked more or less Arabic. The historical Jesus probably looked more like Yassar Arafat than he did the artistic portrayals of Jesus you see in most European and American churches.

Do you mean that Jesus had a Pizza Hut table cloth on his head?

Mark B.

[Kid Omega]

There's segregation and there's racial idenity. Two different thing.

Agreed, but when you actively say "I'm not white, and I am offended being called that" you're saying you don't want to be indentified with a large group of people. You're saying you wnat to be considered as something "other". Which is fine when it just means a pride in your culture, but too often people use that to demand special treatment, blah blah blah

I'm having a hard time making my point here, but I think you know what I mean.

I mean, I could describe myself as raised Southern, Scotch by heritage, British by descended culture and religion, and so on. I could even get tribal and territorial about living in Brooklyn. Some people do.

But when it comes down to it, I'm just an average dude, and I have white skin. And the same could be said of you. The more you seperate yourself with ethnicity, the more you, well, seperate yourself with ethnicity.

-a

[Lone Ranger]

I feel like this a class project now

Anyhow, sociology wise, all these mingling of the races is a somewhat new thing with the advances of modern global transportation being made publically accesible for a little less than half a century. We're sexing each other up faster than we can categorize.

My best friend is of Jamaican descent.

His parents met and married in Jamaica and moved to Toronto.

My friend's mother is of African descent with some Scottish blood mixed in. She essentially looks Ella Fitzgerald. His father is 100% Punjabi.

They have four kids - they all have medium brown skin and straight black hair. They are a very handsome family.

Each child has married someone of a different background.

Child #1: Married a woman of Italian descent.
Child #2: Married an African American man.
Child #3: Married a woman of Philipino descent
Child #4 (my friend): Married a Spanish woman from Ibiza.

I cannot tell you how gorgeous the grandchildren are.

They all have different features, different skin tones - but they are the best looking kids I have even seen.

I always see this family as an indicator of where the world is heading. It will be impossble to categorize, except to say that it's a good thing.

[Typo Lad]

All Jews once looked more or less Arabic.

Yep. Let's hear it for Converts!

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v399/typolad/my-bebe.jpg

They give us much needed genetic material. If not for converts, we'd probably be in the same boat as the Samaratins... 650 of us and can't get married without HEAVY genetic testing.

The historical Jesus probably looked more like Yassar Arafat than he did the artistic portrayals of Jesus you see in most European and American churches.

That's always good for a chuckle.

Morts maybe can tell you a lot more than I can about how the Yemeni Jews are often treated as "not Jewish enough" in modern Israel, though. The "blood" thing is definitely a component, though.


I'm trying to find a good web resource.

One of my favorite bits was the forcing of Yeminite kids into adoption, ala the Native Australians. Although in this case, I'm not sure this passed "conspiracy theory" level recognition.

[BlairH]

"White" is merely the "colour" of the skin Morts so I can't see where the offence was taken. Of course, had you been called "anglo-saxon" or whatever then that would be cause for concern.

All in my admittedly narrow minded opinion of course.

[west3man]

I could understand the feelings of offense more if one's appearance is clearly not green, let's say, but one gets called "green," anyway. It doesn't necessarily have anything to do with a problem with green people. It's mostly related to the desire to be, not only correctly identified, but respected enough for others to care about getting the details right.


Kinda like when someone callously Tim and your name is freakin' Tom.

Honest mistake? No biggie.
Don't care enough to even try to get it right, this time or the next time? Uncool.

[Typo Lad]

Agreed, but when you actively say "I'm not white, and I am offended being called that" you're saying you don't want to be indentified with a large group of people. You're saying you wnat to be considered as something "other". Which is fine when it just means a pride in your culture, but too often people use that to demand special treatment, blah blah blah

Well, okay. I see your point.

In my case, it's more a point of wanting to be identified by my religion and the culture of my people, not the shade my skin might be".

That cool?

[Fabian]

My best friend is of Jamaican descent.

His parents met and married in Jamaica and moved to Toronto.

My friend's mother is of African descent with some Scottish blood mixed in. She essentially looks Ella Fitzgerald. His father is 100% Punjabi.

They have four kids - they all have medium brown skin and straight black hair. They are a very handsome family.

Each child has married someone of a different background.

Child #1: Married a woman of Italian descent.
Child #2: Married an African American man.
Child #3: Married a woman of Philipino descent
Child #4 (my friend): Married a Spanish woman from Ibiza.

I cannot tell you how gorgeous the grandchildren are.

They all have different features, different skin tones - but they are the best looking kids I have even seen.

I always see this family as an indicator of where the world is heading. It will be impossble to categorize, except to say that it's a good thing.
And these families are very new, you'd be hard pressed to find something like this 50 years ago. Imagine how sexy we'd be when we finally get our jetpacks to travel?

[Typo Lad]

"White" is merely the "colour" of the skin Morts so I can't see where the offence was taken. Of course, had you been called "anglo-saxon" or whatever then that would be cause for concern.

All in my admittedly narrow minded opinion of course.

Darling, I'm not calling you narrow minded... you are.

[Dr. Hfuhruhurr]

Here, I'll answer this one for you. This is white:

http://www.nndb.com/people/012/000024937/anson1-sized.jpg

[Dreadstar]

Converts and blending aside, the original ethnic designation of Jews would have signified a group of Caucasoids, correct?

[BlairH]

Darling, I'm not calling you narrow minded... you are.
Indeed
10 characters

[Typo Lad]

Converts and blending aside, the original ethnic designation of Jews would have signified a group of Caucasoids, correct?

Good point!

[Kid Omega]

Well, okay. I see your point.

In my case, it's more a point of wanting to be identified by my religion and the culture of my people, not the shade my skin might be".

That cool?

Of course.

But you see the difference between what you say above and vehemenently cliaiming not to be white?

And thus the struggle began....

I think the end of the discussion is that one can be Jewish, but also white.... maybe?


-a

[Lone Ranger]

Imagine how sexy we'd be when we finally get our jetpacks to travel?

I thought I told you, there's been a recall.

Something about 3rd degree burns to the buttocks.

[Typo Lad]

But you see the difference between what you say above and vehemenently cliaiming not to be white?

I think the end of the discussion is that one can be Jewish, but also white.... maybe?


How about "one can be Jewish, but also Caucasian?"

Because again, my real beef is with the term.

[west3man]

How about "one can be Jewish, but also Caucasian?"

Because again, my real beef is with the term.
Got any Black beef?

[Fabian]

Got any Black beef?
Probably just the Kosher kind

[JeffreyWKramer]

Got any Black beef?

Now I'm getting images of some interracial porn involving one of the black actors and the old woman who used to do the Wendy's "Where's the beef?" commercials.

That is *so* wrong...

[Typo Lad]

Got any Black beef?

That sounds tasty!

I don't like that term much, no. Still, it's better than "African-American". I'm not saying the term can be missused, but on CBR's own frontpage, they have an article about The Black Panther where he's called "The first African-American Superhero".

Um, he's not American. He's African. No hyphenation, please.

And that was in a release from Marvel.

[Fabian]

I don't like that term much, no. Still, it's better than "African-American". I'm not saying the term can be missused, but on CBR's own frontpage, they have an article about The Black Panther where he's called "The first African-American Superhero".

Um, he's not American. He's African. No hyphenation, please.

And that was in a release from Marvel.
Maybe Marvel will Americanize him a la Storm so the white readers can identify with him

[JeffreyWKramer]

Maybe Marvel will Americanize him a la Storm so the white readers can identify with him


I dread the day we see T'Challa given dialogue like "Sweet Christman! Wha'up, bro?"

[Typo Lad]

Maybe Marvel will Americanize him a la Storm so the white readers can identify with him

You want me to cry, don't you?

[Fabian]

I dread the day we see T'Challa given dialogue like "Sweet Christman! Wha'up, bro?"
I half expected that when they were promoting his new book as "hip hop"

I may not know hip hop but I damn well know that Marvel isn't the place to give me the illest rhymes

[west3man]

Probably just the Kosher kind
My brain needs a maid. It's filthy.

Even after having read your completely UNpervilicious joke, I still ended up converting that to really corny, Jewish porn-imagery and dialogue.

[Converge]

I'm guilty of being white. But not caucasian.

I dislike the term "caucasian" much more than I do the term "white."

"Caucasian" refers to the Caucasus region of far eastern Europe. I have no evidence that my answers ever came from that region of the world. But I do know they had white skin. Therefore I can identify with the term "white" much more than "caucasian."

But either way, I would much rather be called Anglo-European or something than something as meaningless as "Caucasian."

[Fabian]

You want me to cry, don't you?
Well we already saw what they did to poor poor Nightcrawler and his lineage.

[west3man]

Now I'm getting images of some interracial porn involving one of the black actors and the old woman who used to do the Wendy's "Where's the beef?" commercials.

That is *so* wrong...Oh geez. My apologies.

[west3man]

That sounds tasty!

I don't like that term much, no. Still, it's better than "African-American". Howso (when it's accurate, I mean)?

I'm not saying the term can be missused, but on CBR's own frontpage, they have an article about The Black Panther where he's called "The first African-American Superhero".

Um, he's not American. He's African. No hyphenation, please.

And that was in a release from Marvel. Yeah. Somebody needs to catch that.

Let's just hope it doesn't end up in one of the comics... at least without a correction from T'Challa.

[Fabian]

My brain needs a maid. It's filthy.

Even after having read your completely UNpervilicious joke, I still ended up converting that to really corny, Jewish porn-imagery and dialogue.
You're seriously more perverted than I originally thought if you have Jewish porn with corn nibblets. I wouldn't touch that with a 20 ft tentacle monster

[Guapo Méndez]

Well all you non-Jaxicans look alike anyway.


That's what it comes down too, you can tell the subtle differences with people with your genetics, but damned if you can see which tribe of Eskimos is from which part of the globe. I know I can't.

Kind of like how I can see Guapo Mendez and tell he's Latino even though he's fair skinned


Heh. At San Diego I was thinking about giving "How to be Mexican" lessons, kinda like Cheech Marin in "Born in East L.A."

"Viva México!"

"...vee-bah Mech-see-cow..."

"Nononono...put more "JJJJJJ" on the "x"....and chug those Coronas!"

I could have passed you all for mexicans in a weekend.


And yeah, basically white to me is fair skinned. From milky white to pink/ peach.

I am white because I hate getting a tan. Everyone but my brother and I, in my immediate family, have a more darker shade of skin color, on account of tans.

My wife and her family are more bronze-skinned, thought. More the typical latino shade.

[Typo Lad]

Even after having read your completely UNpervilicious joke, I still ended up converting that to really corny, Jewish porn-imagery and dialogue.

Jewish Porn?

"Yes... yes... twirl my payis baby! You know how I like it!"

[Typo Lad]

Howso (when it's accurate, I mean)?

Oh, when it's accurate I don't mind! But to use it as a catch-all for anyone with dark skin?

My dad, for example, once made a major slip-up by calling someone African-American when they were African. We also have a friend who is Panamanian and everyone calls her African-American. Drives her nuts.

[Solaris]

"White" is a mostly-incorrect term used to describe a portion of the population (U.S.) who's ancestors came from various European or European-settled countries... another word for "Caucasian" (which is also rather erroneous).

In reality, few white people are literally *white*---most are varying shades of pink, tan, olive, etc. Just as most "black" people are varying shades of tan or brown, though on rare occasion someone may have that beautiful blue-black shade to their skin.

Really, none of our "racial designation" terms are very accurate---most simply work with an agreed-upon shorthand to describe where someone's ancestors came from, within a span of time in the past. (I say the latter, because antropologists say mankind originated in Africa, which would technically make us all Africans, if you go back far enough).

The technical isses the terms attempt to address are twofold:

1. amount of melanin, kerotin, etc. in the skin

2. predominant specific physical characteristics that developed within regions, over time, because of environment (i.e. strong sun or lack thereof), regional mostly-enclosed breeding population, etc. (This includes salient features that are often ascribed to one race or another, but are not limited to said races. For instance, most Far Asians have an epicanthic fold over their eyes---but you can find it some in English populations as well. In fact, I have epicanthic upper eyelids, and have no Asians in my near ancestry to account for it---and it comes from the British side of my family.)

The second factor is the predominate one used by most people, whatever the amount of melanin etc. in your skin. The only *real* significance, IMO, to needing this kind of "racial" info on someone is medical: certain diseases like sickle cell, tay sachs, etc. were much more common within a certain regional population, and still carry down to descendants, whether they live there anymore or not.

Otherwise, I just don't give a shit about race, per say.

Culture, on the other hand, has often accompanied race, and is fascinating indeed. :)

[Solaris]

Oh, when it's accurate I don't mind! But to use it as a catch-all for anyone with dark skin?

My dad, for example, once made a major slip-up by calling someone African-American when they were African. We also have a friend who is Panamanian and everyone calls her African-American. Drives her nuts.


Just call 'em "people" and be done with it.

;) :D Hee.

[Fabian]

Heh. At San Diego I was thinking about giving "How to be Mexican" lessons, kinda like Cheech Marin in "Born in East L.A."

"Viva México!"

"...vee-bah Mech-see-cow..."

"Nononono...put more "JJJJJJ" on the "x"....and chug those Coronas!"

I could have passed you all for mexicans in a weekend.


And yeah, basically white to me is fair skinned. From milky white to pink/ peach.

I am white because I hate getting a tan. Everyone but my brother and I, in my immediate family, have a more darker shade of skin color, on account of tans.

My wife and her family are more bronze-skinned, thought. More the typical latino shade.
We missed a lot of golden cultural opportunities last year but there's always the next one

Are you originally from the Mexico City region? There's more fair skinned Mexicans there than up in the North no? Like I hail from Chihuahua, the desert state, and most of my family have their natural brownish shade.

[JeffreyWKramer]

Jewish Porn?

Now, at Doc Moishe's Adult Emporium... just in time for the holidays...the Vibro-Driedel!

[Solaris]

Seriously, as our world transportation grows, and populations shift around, the old terminology is becoming less and less useful. I think that eventually we'll mostly drop racial descriptions, at least for current use (as opposed to describing ancestors, ie. for medical purposes), because it's just gonna be too damn hard to simply look at a good amount of the people and say "you're white/black/asian/hispanic/nativeamerican/etc., aren't you?"

We see some of that now. Tish has mentioned more than once that she's black by heritage, but because she *looks* white, a lot of blacks don't believe it. There's lots of folks out there in Tish's shoes, and the numbers continue to grow. BCAugust is half (IIRC) native american---and she's got very fair skin and mid-brown hair. MY skin and hair are darker/more olive than hers! :)

[west3man]

I dig the idea that we're all just people and that focusing on our similarities has value. No argument there.

Still, similarities are exactly what make labels necessary and appropriate, at times.

As an exercise, though, I think I'll see how often I can catch myself referring to "the Black guy over there" when I could just say "the guy in the really ugly green shirt," instead. I'm curious about whether that change will be a practical or difficult one.

My lil no-smiley experiment was interesting. I'd expect this one to be more interesting... unless I never catch myself.

[Typo Lad]

Now, at Doc Moishe's Adult Emporium... just in time for the holidays...the Vibro-Driedel!


That scares me, becasue i bet it exists.

[Guapo Méndez]

We missed a lot of golden cultural opportunities last year but there's always the next one

Are you originally from the Mexico City region? There's more fair skinned Mexicans there than up in the North no? Like I hail from Chihuahua, the desert state, and most of my family have their natural brownish shade.

Yeah, Mexico City region. On my Mom's side, my great-grandpa came from Spain to make his fortune. On my Dad's side, they were the Hacendados that lost big on the Revolutionary war (the Colonia Polanco was my family's hacienda). Rumor has it (what one of my great uncle's tales when he's got about 2 litres of tequila in him) is that one of my family ancestors was the vicerroy Don Antonio de Mendoza). So that side of the family is light skinned, but they love their tans.

My wife's father comes from Colima, and I believe they are ranch owners. He's used to waking up at 5:00 am and calling it a night at 8:00 pm. He's really dark skinned, the typical ranchero. My wife's maternal family are 100% local, and they are a bit more bronzed, but not nearly as much as her dad's family.

[JeffreyWKramer]

I dig the idea that we're all just people and that focusing on our similarities has value. No argument there.

Still, similarities are exactly what make labels necessary and appropriate, at times.

As an exercise, though, I think I'll see how often I can catch myself referring to "the Black guy over there" when I could just say "the guy in the really ugly green shirt," instead. I'm curious about whether that change will be a practical one - or one that'd difficult to make.

My lil no-smiley experiment was interesting. I'd expect this one to be more interesting... unless I never catch myself.

It'll be interesting to see how that goes. It might well take some effort, but it can be done.

This reminds me of one swing couple I know. Given the relative rarity of ethnic diversity in the local swing community, at most gatherings, she could easily be "the Greek-looking gal" and he "the black guy", but I recall when someone at an event who didn't know them asked if she was there solo or with her husband, she referred to her husband as "the tall, bald man over there" as opposed to "the black man over there." Equally descriptive, equally valid, and less racially/ethnically divisive.

Also sort of an interesting - and healthy, IMHO - approach on their parts, given that a lot of swing folk focus on diversity as something of a novelty, and ethinically diverse folk often find themseles treated more as a token conquest - "I want to do it with a black guy/Asian chick" - than as Mariah or Daryl or whatever.

[Dreadstar]

How about "one can be Jewish, but also Caucasian?"

Because again, my real beef is with the term.

It sounds more like you're looking for a definition of "race."

As Tom's earlier post alluded to, there are distinct taxonomic racial classifications. Caucasoid, Negroid, Mongoloid, Australoid and.... Capoid? Now, these designations are, in today's brutal scientific world, being fought over. The reason being they sub-classify a sub-classification, and in many respects (like blending) it doesn't even work. Ask an anthropolgist whether "race" should be considered a sub-classification of homo sapiens and you're just as likely to get a "yes" as a "no."

The REAL problem arises when folk want to FURTHER sub-clasify the (real or imagined) sub-sub-classification into "ethnic" races. So, "Jewish" might be considered a sub-classification of Caucasoid which is a sub-classification of Sapiens. And THEN you have Ashkenazi which is a sub-classification of Jewish...

Me, I don't much care for the use of "racial" when it come to ephemeral classification. I mean, is Tiger Woods (to use an already given example in this thread) a Negroid, a Mongoloid or a Caucasoid? Why? He has ancestry and genetic ties to all three. Why just one?

But it is much easier for the observer to classify him as "black" whether or not it's actually correct to do so.

Give me a picture of you Morts, without knowing your background of course, and if pressed to give give a designation of some sort, I'm gonna say "white." I mean, no offense, but that's my honset observation. And without other clues (like west's earlier assertion of the hispanic's dialect) I wouldn't even VENTURE a guess to your ethnicity.

[Dreadstar]

Just call 'em "people" and be done with it.


Works for me.

Can we sub-classify into designations of "ugly", "good-looking", and "hot?"

'Cause that's what I do...

[west3man]

It'll be interesting to see how that goes. It might well take some effort, but it can be done.

This reminds me of one swing couple I know. Given the relative rarity of ethnic diversity in the local swing community, at most gatherings, she could easily be "the Greek-looking gal" and he "the black guy", but I recall when someone at an event who didn't know them asked if she was there solo or with her husband, she referred to her husband as "the tall, bald man over there" as opposed to "the black man over there." Equally descriptive, equally valid, and less racially/ethnically divisive.

Also sort of an interesting - and healthy, IMHO - approach on their parts, given that a lot of swing folk focus on diversity as something of a novely, and ethinically diverse folk often find themseles treated more as a token conquest - "I want to do it with a black guy/Asian chick" - than as Mariah or Daryl or whatever. This reminds me of that penny/dollar thing. Basically, I believe that the little things count, in the long run - and not just with uncomfortable issues like race.

Anyway, we'll see how it goes.

[Fabian]

Yeah, Mexico City region. On my Mom's side, my great-grandpa came from Spain to make his fortune. On my Dad's side, they were the Hacendados that lost big on the Revolutionary war (the Colonia Polanco was my family's hacienda). Rumor has it (what one of my great uncle's tales when he's got about 2 litres of tequila in him) is that one of my family ancestors was the vicerroy Don Antonio de Mendoza). So that side of the family is light skinned, but they love their tans.

My wife's father comes from Colima, and I believe they are ranch owners. He's used to waking up at 5:00 am and calling it a night at 8:00 pm. He's really dark skinned, the typical ranchero. My wife's maternal family are 100% local, and they are a bit more bronzed, but not nearly as much as her dad's family.
I was going to ask if you descended from relatives who owned Haciendas as they tended to be fairer skinned.

My family history isn't as colorful but I know more from my grandfather's side since he hasn't caught the Alzheimer's. He comes from the native Taramuaras of Chihuahua and they were used in the gold mines there. Anyhow, my grandfather and great uncles and even some uncles all worked in the mines. Same with my Grandmother's side but her side is more screwy since that's where the Japanese ancestry comes in and her father was whie but I can't go on anything more since all their stories mix up. However, my grandfather looks like a typical native mexican-american indian and my grandmother is fair skinned and has the asian nose (but she swears she's white). The family is divided down the middle with the fair skinned women and the darker shaded males. Although I have one fair skinned cousin but he turned out gay so our genetic theory stands

[Guapo Méndez]

I was going to ask if you descended from relatives who owned Haciendas as they tended to be fairer skinned.



There is an old family joke with the name Polanco.
In Mexico City, the Polanco's are part of the Jet-Set, y'know, the movers and the shakers. So Polanco is an "important" name in Mexico City.

In Merida, Polanco is a very common name. When we moved to Merida and I saw so many Polancos in the White Pages, I asked my dad about it and if they were part of the family.

He told me that my great-great grandfather was a man of two passions: travel and sex. And when he did one, he always insisted on doing the other.

"So, yes..." he said. "...they might be part of the family".

[Spackling Compound]

I've always wanted to ask this of a white supremacist:
I'm not a white supremacist, but I play one on teevee. Let me try to answer these..

If whites should be in charge, then should there be a hierarchy based on how white you are? If this is the case, would the whitest of the white rule over the less white members?
Yes and yes. See "Aryan Race" for further details.

-'Cause it'd be weird seeing an albino oligarchy.
Yes, that'd be weird but albinism is seen as a defect of pigment. In a total, ethnic cleansing scenario, they'd be gassed with the lepers and the blind folks.

Though once I asked that, I have images of being beaten by guys who drive away in pickup trucks.
Or Cadillacs...

[Dreadstar]

Or Cadillacs...

And they don't really "drive away" from you so much as "in front of the rope you're tied to."

[Shellhead]

Seriously, as our world transportation grows, and populations shift around, the old terminology is becoming less and less useful. I think that eventually we'll mostly drop racial descriptions, at least for current use (as opposed to describing ancestors, ie. for medical purposes), because it's just gonna be too damn hard to simply look at a good amount of the people and say "you're white/black/asian/hispanic/nativeamerican/etc., aren't you?"


I agree. One hundred years ago, there was discrimination in the United States against immigrants from places like Ireland and Italy. These days, I know few people who are 100% Irish-American or 100% Italian-American. It's usually one quarter-this or one half-that. As a kid, people still told a lot of ethnic jokes, like "Did you hear the one about the..." Now, nobody I know tells these kind of jokes... I haven't even heard the word "polock" (derogotary word for Polish people) in about 20 years.

And now the races are blending. I have cousins who are half-Vietnamese (one-quarter Italian, one-quarter Irish), and they look sort of asian. But each of them has hooked up with a white partner, and so the babies are going to look less asian. I used to date a woman who was half-Vietnamese (one-quarter Swedish, one-quarter Dutch) who looked like a very light-skinned black woman. Each of her kids had a (different) black father, and they look very distinctive. Mano is going to be huge, but his facial features are very similar to Tiger Woods. His sister Kayla looks like a very young Rae Dawn Chong. I wish I was going to be around 100 years from now, when race will be less of an issue.

[Fabian]

There is an old family joke with the name Polanco.
In Mexico City, the Polanco's are part of the Jet-Set, y'know, the movers and the shakers. So Polanco is an "important" name in Mexico City.

In Merida, Polanco is a very common name. When we moved to Merida and I saw so many Polancos in the White Pages, I asked my dad about it and if they were part of the family.

He told me that my great-great grandfather was a man of two passions: travel and sex. And when he did one, he always insisted on doing the other.

"So, yes..." he said. "...they might be part of the family".
Clearly you stem from a long line of latin lovers. Of course my family name is Lopez and you know how many Lopez's there are

[Sir Tim Drake]

If anyone saw the previous post, I humbly apologize for it. I seriously thought I was posting it in a private forum. It was only my stupidity that led me to post it here instead. I deleted it as soon as I realized my mistake. The post in question does not represent my "official" opinion as a mod, or the views of anyone else.

I apologize again, and now let's get back to the discussion.

[Sir Tim Drake]

I don't really think of myself as white/Caucasian, despite having white skin. Somehow I think of Caucasian as referring to western or northern European ancestry. But my ancestors (http://www.kitces.com/Tree/FAPSCllioJFi.htm) were Ashkenazi Jews from Eastern Europe, and that's what I think my ethnicity is.

I certainly think the Ashkenazi Jewish ethnicity is distinct from the Jewish religion-- I haven't been inside a synagogue in quite a while.

[Solaris]

Works for me.

Can we sub-classify into designations of "ugly", "good-looking", and "hot?"

'Cause that's what I do...


Absofrickinlutely! :D Hee.

For me, race is definitely a fall-back descriptor. Like, I might say "the older lady who works in accounting," and they don't get it, so I say "the one who wears pink all the time," and they STILL don't know who I'm talking about, and then I say "The older lady in pink who wears enough makeup to scrape off with a palette knife" and they go *Ohhh, THAT lady!" Sometimes using race as a descriptor can help, if you're trying to identify one person out of a group to someone else---but it's not the first descriptor I usually go for.... mainly because I don't say "that white woman in accounting" so why should I say "that black woman in accounting"? :D

[Solaris]

I dig the idea that we're all just people and that focusing on our similarities has value. No argument there.

Still, similarities are exactly what make labels necessary and appropriate, at times.

As an exercise, though, I think I'll see how often I can catch myself referring to "the Black guy over there" when I could just say "the guy in the really ugly green shirt," instead. I'm curious about whether that change will be a practical or difficult one.

My lil no-smiley experiment was interesting. I'd expect this one to be more interesting... unless I never catch myself.

I tried it, and found it to be a happier thing for me, because it's much more in line with my beliefs. I *will* use racial appearance as a descriptor when it's absolutely necessary, but it's no longer the first thing out of my mouth, and hasn't been for some time. In general, especially if the person I'm referring to is in visual range, other descriptors work just fine in conveying whom I'm talking about. Even then, when I *do* use a racial descriptor I will often say "that black-looking/asian-looking etc. man", because there's a lot of folks out there, as Morts mentioned earlier, who don't feel they belong to a certain racial group, for whatever reason. But it's pretty rare that I even *have* to use a racial descriptor anymore, because usually I can convey whom I'm speaking about without ever referring to race. :) Which really makes me feel good, because it means I'm focusing on the *person*, not their race. (And yes, I also occasionally have to refer to someone as "that white girl" too, so it's not just minorities.)

[bfrank]

There's no bi-racial people my shade of white.

well, now you just have to show us your shade of white....there are Black folks in my family, with blond hair and blue eyes....

Edit: Seriously though how is:



Any different from your thoughts:

I'm sure you addressed this by now west, I am late in the game, but i'm interested in this as well....

[Hoss]

What about Latinos that look Black?

Mark B.


Blacktinos.

[Converge]

well, now you just have to show us your shade of white....there are Black folks in my family, with blond hair and blue eyes....

I find it hard to believe that black person would have blonde hair and blue eyes.

Unless they have a weave and blue contacts.

[Solaris]

I find it hard to believe that black person would have blonde hair and blue eyes.

Unless they have a weave and blue contacts.

Genetics can do strange things, and recessives pop out when you least expect it.

I have dark hair and brown eyes and olive skin. Hubby has golden skin, hazel eyes (green/brown), and mid-brown hair.

Our son is fair-skinned, with blond curls and blue eyes. Everyone wants to know where he got his coloring. Answer is: the grandparents. My dad had blond hair as a kid, and has green eyes, and his mom has blonde and blue, and both of them had fair skin. My mom and his dad both have darker skin and hair, and brown eyes.

If the recessives are there, there *is* a chance in a black family of a blond, blue-eyed kid. *Usually* the recessives *got* there by at least one "white" ancestor on both sides... but if the majority of the family is negroid derivation, then they usually consider themselves as "black," whatever skin and eye tones come out through the genes.

***

Oh, and I noticed someone using the term "Mongoloid" as one of the scientific racial names... is that still in use? I was wondering, because for a while it was used to describe people with Down's Syndrome, which makes the word a little confusing now.

[bfrank]

I take a little bass out of my voice, every day. Usually between meals.
THREAD DRIFT:

I have stopped this process all together...no more "work" voice for me...It's making more than a few people around here uncomfortable...quite funny...

[west3man]

well, now you just have to show us your shade of white....there are Black folks in my family, with blond hair and blue eyes....


I'm sure you addressed this by now west, I am late in the game, but i'm interested in this as well....Below is a link to my response. If you also see some appparent contradictions in my statements, please feel free to point them out to me, in-thread, if you like, and I'll address them.

west: http://forums.comicbookresources.com/showpost.php?p=2100033&postcount=20

[Dreadstar]

Oh, and I noticed someone using the term "Mongoloid" as one of the scientific racial names... is that still in use? I was wondering, because for a while it was used to describe people with Down's Syndrome, which makes the word a little confusing now.

That's part of what I was saying about the scientific communtiy fighting over the "race" classifications of taxonomy. Some just want to throw the whole thing out, as it's too intangible to pin down anymore.

But no, they still use it now and probably will until it's discarded (if it's discarded). The indiactor wou.d be the capital "M" versus the lower case "m".

[Converge]

I don't think any of the "-oids" are used anymore.

from Wikipedia:

The -oid racial terms are now controversial in both technical and nontechnical contexts and are likely to give offense no matter how they are used. [1] Mongoloid is considered "an archaic term" by a modern anthropological textbook The Human Species copyrighted in 2003, on page 126.

[bfrank]

I find it hard to believe that black person would have blonde hair and blue eyes.

Unless they have a weave and blue contacts.
Well, I'd send you down to New Orleans to check out my folks, the creole's but alas...


try to find a picture of Luci Collins, the first black american woman, to make an olympic gymnastic team (my cousin, to bad it was the '80) and tell m if she looks black or white...were you to meet my uncle, her father, he'd blow you mind, while he no longer has any hair, those eyes are still blue...

we can look like the whitest white person or the darkest black.....

[Dreadstar]

I don't think any of the "-oids" are used anymore.

Nah, they're still being used, they're just out of favor, and heading even further, because they're not strict identifiers.

I figure that many many more books will head in the direction of the text you're referencing, though, as the terms find more and more disfavor.

[i_mmmchocolate]

Basically, if you're white-colored, you're "white," as far as I'm concerned. Latinos put a hypertime whammy on that theory, but a white-colored Latino person is gonna be put in the "white" category until I hear an accent or something that clues me in... and maybe even then they'll remain "white," in my mind. Depends on the individual, but that's my highly advanced methodology.

So I'm white.

[Converge]

Well, I'd send you down to New Orleans to check out my folks, the creole's but alas...


try to find a picture of Luci Collins, the first black american woman, to make an olympic gymnastic team (my cousin, to bad it was the '80) and tell m if she looks black or white...were you to meet my uncle, her father, he'd blow you mind, while he no longer has any hair, those eyes are still blue...

we can look like the whitest white person or the darkest black.....

So if your family has blonde hair, blue eyes, and white skin then how are they considered "black folks?"

[west3man]

So I'm white.
I don't know why this "until I hear an accent or something that clues me in" doesn't mean to many of you what it meant to me. Why doesn't the rest of that post count? Better question: What does the rest of that post mean to you? Obviously, it means something different to you and some others than it does to me.

If you'd rather not respond, thanks anyway. Just trying to figure out how else one should interpret the follow-up sentences.

When I said "basically," I'm talking about the general "rule," without much concern for the exceptions... in that sentence. The rest of the post addresses some of the exceptions. "until I hear an accent or something that clues me in" is one of the exceptions.

[Joe Rice]

So I'm white.

Congratulations!

heeheehee

[Dreadstar]

So I'm white.

That's OK.

Joe's clear.

[i_mmmchocolate]

Congratulations!

heeheehee

Yay, but I can't say no to pernil con arroz y habichuelas. That would be wrong.

[Joe Rice]

Yay, but I can't say no to pernil con arroz y habichuelas. That would be wrong.

Mira, mami, I had some today. Muy bueno.

[i_mmmchocolate]

I don't know why this "until I hear an accent or something that clues me in" doesn't mean to many of you what it meant to me. Why doesn't the rest of that post count? Better question: What does the rest of that post mean to you? Obviously, it means something different to you and some others than it does to me.

If you'd rather not respond, thanks anyway. Just trying to figure out how else one should interpret the follow-up sentences.

When I said "basically," I'm talking about the general "rule," without much concern for the exceptions... in that sentence. The rest of the post addresses some of the exceptions. "until I hear an accent or something that clues me in" is one of the exceptions.

What if the person has a thick Italian accent? Or a thick Greek accent? Does that matter? Or do you only use this categorization only for Latinos? And if so, why? And if not, why?

[JerrBear81]

Seriously, I wish people would just focus on the fact that we're all human, and that in the case of most "racial" groups (i.e., pretty much all of them except for the Australian aborigines and a few very reclusive tribal societies), the amount of genetic variation within groups is the same as the amount between groups.

I agree :) :)

[i_mmmchocolate]

Mira, mami, I had some today. Muy bueno.

I haven't had any in a while. I'm jealous. Aye dios.

[bfrank]

So if your family has blonde hair, blue eyes, and white skin then how are they considered "black folks?"
cuz they are black? they came from two black parents? duh?

[Joe Rice]

I haven't had any in a while. I'm jealous. Aye dios.

If you do, in fact, no "do Brooklyn," you should come to Bushwick some time. Flora will fix you up.

[west3man]

What if the person has a thick Italian accent? Or a thick Greek accent? Does that matter? Or do you only use this categorization for Latinos? And if so, why? And if not, why?
Italian? Typically white.
Greek? Typically white.

Why? I think it's because the descriptors (white, black, yellow, etc.) are related to the skin tone of the individual, and the Italian and Greek people I usually identify as such are generally lighter in skin tone than "obvious" Latinos. Right or wrong, that skin tone is within the range I've always considered to be "white."

'Zat clear or clearER?

[i_mmmchocolate]

I think it's because the descriptors (white, black, yellow, etc.) are related to the skin tone of the individual, and the Italian and Greek people I usually identify as such are generally lighter in skin tone than "obvious" Latinos.

I've met some very dark Sicilians and Greeks.

What are your thoughts on black latinos? Are they black or latino? Most would rather keep their accent than be mistaken for African-American.

[bfrank]

I've met some very dark Sicilians and Greeks.

What are your thoughts on black latinos? Are they black or latino? Most would rather keep their accent than be mistaken for African-American.
I'd imagine it have to be the same as his thoughts on white latinos?

controversy: the only difference between some afro-latino's and black anmericans is that they (the black latino's) have an accent....

[i_mmmchocolate]

I'd imagine it have to be the same as his thoughts on white latinos?

He didn't specify. Maybe?

controversy: the only difference between some afro-latino's and black anmericans is that they (the black latino's) have an accent....

Yeah, I know.

[west3man]

I've met some very dark Sicilians and Greeks.

What are your thoughts on black latinos? Are they black or latino? Yes! :)

Same "rules" apply, more or less, I think. When I see a person who looks "Black," I'm even MORE surprised if they bust out with the native tongue-Spanish. I don't consider the terms to necessarily be mutually exclusive, though.

Most would rather keep their accent than be mistaken for African-American. That's news to me. I haven't heard much about this one way or the other, that I recall.

But we claim pretty much anyone who looks Black. I'm sure there are historical markers all over that tendency, but they're highly internalized. I don't think "If the revolution were to go down, right now, YO ASS would be hung just as high as I would!" when I "draft" someone. ;) But I have little doubt that this tendency is strongly tied to this nation's history with regard to ethnic identification.

[Spackling Compound]

White is basically Anglo-Saxon, Protestant, American with money and deep roots in this country.
Anything that deviates from the above slowly but surely lessens your whiteness.

I'm white when I'm standing next to a black guy.

I'm not as white when I'm standing next to an Anglican investment-banker who has a town in Maine named after his mother's family.

[i_mmmchocolate]

But I have little doubt that this tendency is strongly tied to this nation's history with regard to ethnic identification.

This is true and I can go on and on about this but I won't!

[TinMan]

I just think its funny that people find it necassary to label people by what color skin they have. I don't care if you're pink w/ purple pok-a-dots and have an arm growing out of your ass, you're still a human being, everything else is irrelavent.

[west3man]

This is true and I can go on and on about this but I won't!
I'd certainly be interested in reading it. I doubt I'm alone in that.

Your call.

[Dreadstar]

White is basically Anglo-Saxon, Protestant, American with money and deep roots in this country.

Yay! 4 out of 5. But why-o-why coiuldn't it have been the "roots" I was lacking instead of the money?


I'm not as white when I'm standing next to an Anglican investment-banker who has a town in Maine named after his mother's family.
Who is?

[bfrank]

I'd certainly be interested in reading it. I doubt I'm alone in that.

Your call.
I believe her, I could probably go on and on with similar stories....I thought it was a california thing....

[west3man]

I just think its funny that people find it necassary to label people by what color skin they have. I don't care if you're pink w/ purple pok-a-dots and have an arm growing out of your ass, you're still a human being, everything else is irrelavent.
On certain basic levels, I'd agree with you, but practical concerns move us further away from that truth and closer to another - that being that there are highly relevant real world elements, tangible and intangible, that link or distinguish us. I'm not sure that we can or should reject those elements in pursuit of the ideal.

[Typo Lad]

Who is?


Oo! oo! Suzannah's aunt!

Lives in a city in Arkansas that shares her own name, as with the other example and had relatives on the Mayflower.

The good news is that the slaves quarters were finally torn down.

[Slam_Bradley]

I just think its funny that people find it necassary to label people by what color skin they have. I don't care if you're pink w/ purple pok-a-dots and have an arm growing out of your ass, you're still a human being, everything else is irrelavent.


If the individual in question is pink with purple pok-a-dots and has an arm growning out of its ass I want independent genetic confirmation of its humanity.

[Spackling Compound]

If the individual in question is pink with purple pok-a-dots and has an arm growning out of its ass I want independent genetic confirmation of its humanity.
And, would you let said "ass arm"-ed person date your daughter?

[west3man]

I believe her,You're talking about whether Black Latinos would rather not be identified as "Black?" If so, no argument from me. It's not something I remember ever observing a discussion on.

If you're talking about going on and on about the link between race identifical in the U.S.A. and the way many people still classify people... Again, no argument from me. I'd like to see either or both of your opinions on the matter.

I could probably go on and on with similar stories....I thought it was a california thing.... Give.

[Slam_Bradley]

And, would you let said "ass arm"-ed person date your daughter?


Not having a daughter, that's hard to answer. If he was of the appropriate age and had good prospects, probably.

[Slam_Bradley]

The good news is that the slaves quarters were finally torn down.


Were the slaves quarters built on an Indian burial ground? Cause that would be cool.

[west3man]

And, would you let said "ass arm"-ed person date your daughter?
My FIRST THOUGHT was about the fear of ass-armed babies.

"He's cute, but I don't want my kids to have <<insert whatever fragged-up trait this dude has>>."

Me? I'm gonna hold onto my girlfriend TIGHT cuz the next woman might MIND the possibility that her child will have a big brown egg on the back of his head!

[Typo Lad]

If the individual in question is pink with purple pok-a-dots and has an arm growning out of its ass I want independent genetic confirmation of its humanity.

Why do you hate the X-Men?

[Slam_Bradley]

Why do you hate the X-Men?


Do you want the myriad reasons alphabetically or in order of importance?

[bfrank]

You're talking about whether Black Latinos would rather not be identified as "Black?" If so, no argument from me. It's not something I remember ever observing a discussion on.

If you're talking about going on and on about the link between race identifical in the U.S.A. and the way many people still classify people... Again, no argument from me. I'd like to see either or both of your opinions on the matter.

Give.

Man, that would be alot to type out....Remember I live in california, things a bit more intense here sometimes (you should have been around for the hispanic vs latino debates going on at UCLA around the time of prop 187, and then again around 209)...

regardless, I have several latino homies (most from Puerto Rico), that look "blacker" than I do, and as I said above, the only reason why one would think that they weren't black is due to their accents...We used to get into arguments all the time, cuz I would say that the ships just dropped their great great grand parents off before mine...The problem, as I found out later wasn't so much that they had a problem being "black", but being labeled as such ignored their "PRness", so to speak...I'm pretty sure you get that...

[Typo Lad]

Were the slaves quarters built on an Indian burial ground? Cause that would be cool.

I cna check.

The College I used to work for had a campus built on a Native American graveyard. That always fascinated me.

[Typo Lad]

Do you want the myriad reasons alphabetically or in order of importance?

How about reverse alpahabetical so you can start with "Xaviar is a segregationist hypocrite" and then move on to "Wolverine is lame."?

[TinMan]

On certain basic levels, I'd agree with you, but practical concerns move us further away from that truth and closer to another - that being that there are highly relevant real world elements, tangible and intangible, that link or distinguish us. I'm not sure that we can or should reject those elements in pursuit of the ideal.

Well, rascism and segregation of races is a huge issue in the world. If everyone would give up on stupid labels and just learn to deal with the individual as a person and not some "spooky bastard with a hidden agenda" things would go much better. I mean, to some extents I can understand why its there, cause every asshole from their respective race gets looked at as the sterotype moreso than the good ones. But its more of an outlook thing that the INDIVIDUAL must take.

[west3man]

Man, that would be alot to type out....Remember I live in california, things a bit more intense here sometimes (you should have been around for the hispanic vs latino debates going on at UCLA around the time of prop 187, and then again around 209)...

regardless, I have several latino homies (most from Puerto Rico), that look "blacker" than I do, and as I said above, the only reason why one would think that they weren't black is due to their accents...We used to get into arguments all the time, cuz I would say that the ships just dropped their great great grand parents off before mine...The problem, as I found out later wasn't so much that they had a problem being "black", but being labeled as such ignored their "PRness", so to speak...I'm pretty sure you get that...
I feel you. Kinda reminds me of Typo Lad's feelings which prompted this thread.

[Tom]

I don't really understand the distinction (or lack of one) being made about black people from latin america. They're Black. Their ancestry is African-descended. That they speak spanish or live in a spanish-speaking culture doesn't really make a difference.

[west3man]

Well, rascism and segregation of races is a huge issue in the world. If everyone would give up on stupid labels and just learn to deal with the individual as a person and not some "spooky bastard with a hidden agenda" things would go much better. I mean, to some extents I can understand why its there, cause every asshole from their respective race gets looked at as the sterotype moreso than the good ones. But its more of an outlook thing that the INDIVIDUAL must take.
I think we both see the catch-22 in there. That being the case, I agree with you that individuals have to step up and be willing to try new approaches, have new conversations, consider new ideas... at least if they want to truthfully say that they're doing all they can to build the better world so many of us claim that we want.

I guess the willingness to take such steps (and the size of those steps) is largely dependent upon... damn. I forgot what I was going to say that it's dependent upon. Obviously, there needs to be a motivating factor to cause the action - one strong enough to overcome the perceived/anticipated negative repercussions associated with that action. I don't think that's where I was going, though.


At any rate, segregation isn't the only consideration. Looking at similiarities is the answer, but it's also the problem (though it doesn't always yield negative results). It's similarities that cause there to be "Black" movies, malls, tv shows, humor, etc.

Unfortunately, there are some people who see such things, the very acknowledgement of (not necessarily the deification of) similarities or interests of a particular group, as a negative thing. That's a big stumbling block... one that leads to others.

[bfrank]

I don't really understand the distinction (or lack of one) being made about black people from latin america. They're Black. Their ancestry is African-descended. That they speak spanish or live in a spanish-speaking culture doesn't really make a difference.
they are saying that they are about as african american as black person living in canada is....

[PatrickG]

How do you say "Caucasoid"?

Is it like "Cock-a-zoid"? It sounds like an 80s teen movie insult.

Also, I have some Italian ancestry. Does that make me Latino?

If my great step-grandmother hadn't sent my grandfather to a lousy Catholic orphanage, I imagine there's a pretty fair chance I'd be Catholic.

I'm also a little Irish on both sides of my family.

I also suspect some of my ancestors were Jewish and converted/lied to avoid persecution. No hard evidence but I've met a lot of Jewish people who look like family members.

[Michael P]

How do you say "Caucasoid"?

Is it like "Cock-a-zoid"? It sounds like an 80s teen movie insult.

Hell, now the Freakazoid theme song is running through my head in an extremely wrong version...

[howyadoin]

I dread the day we see T'Challa given dialogue like "Sweet Christman! Wha'up, bro?"Wouldn't surprise me at all, given the god-awful writing in the book these days.

[howyadoin]

I may not know hip hop but I damn well know that Marvel isn't the place to give me the illest rhymesEspecially when Mark Waid's writing.

[PatrickG]

Oh. C'Mon.

Joe Kelly's down wit' da Def Dope, dogg.

Word. Represent.

[howyadoin]

White is basically Anglo-Saxon, Protestant, American with money and deep roots in this country.
Anything that deviates from the above slowly but surely lessens your whiteness.Poor Irish Catholics are black, I guess.

[Dreadstar]

Poor Irish Catholics are black, I guess.

"The Irish are the blacks of Europe. Dubliners are the blacks of Ireland. The Northside Dubliners are the blacks of Dublin."

[Guapo Méndez]

Also, I have some Italian ancestry. Does that make me Latino?



Actually, no. Italian ancestry would make you kinda european.

Latinos are from Latin America, which is everything south of the United States.
Iberoamerican, however, would be if you were descendant of spaniard/portuguese living in America.

[howyadoin]

"The Irish are the blacks of Europe. Dubliners are the blacks of Ireland. The Northside Dubliners are the blacks of Dublin."Yeah, I saw The Commitments. I just find it funny that people who are about as physically white as you can get are black by Spackling's criteria.

[Dreadstar]

Yeah, I saw The Commitments. I just find it funny that people who are about as physically white as you can get are black by Spackling's criteria.

You know I couldn't pass up the chance to quote it.

[i_mmmchocolate]

I don't really understand the distinction (or lack of one) being made about black people from latin america. They're Black. Their ancestry is African-descended. That they speak spanish or live in a spanish-speaking culture doesn't really make a difference.

Technically true. And I agree. It's weird how race relations play out in the Caribbean and Latin America.

[Charles RB]

" Dubliners are the blacks of Ireland."

Which is odd, with Dublin being the capital city and all.

[Bakema NL]

White is a skin color, not a race. If you have white skin, you're white.

My skin is not white, it's some sort of pink-like.

White is the color of the box I'm typing this in.........stupid black white purple whatever bullshit all the time.

[Shellhead]

"The Irish are the blacks of Europe. Dubliners are the blacks of Ireland. The Northside Dubliners are the blacks of Dublin."

I quoted that to my Irish grandmother while she was still alive. She laughed really hard. After she stopped laughing (but was still grinning), she said, "That was pretty funny, but no irishman would ever say that." Then she whispered, "The irish are very racist people."

[i_mmmchocolate]

That was part of a class discussion recently. At one point the Irish were a separate race, according to the English- 16th, 17th- 18th centuries?

Those Crazy Wild Irish!!!

[comic_lover]

So in another thread, I took offense at being called "White". Which prompted the ever delightful west3man to ask...



Damn good question and one I'm still trying to word - but how do you define it? Exceptional honkeyness.Just ask Richard Pryor.He knows. :D So does Eddie Griffen.His " White Man's " impersonation is freaking hilarious ! :D If you want another answer; see Ozzie and Harriet :cool:

[heretic]

To be 'White' in the United States is to be accepted by the general populace as a non-alien/undesireable.

In the 1810s Scots were still a very distinct group/class from the English decended gentry of the east coast, as were the remaining 'Dutchmen' along the Hudson. By the 1840s Irish and Germans were raising cries of alien influence. 1900 saw an active and growing infestation of Italians, various Slavs, and (as you may know) Azkhenazic Jews.

That finally freaked the powers that be into shutting the atlantic door just as the Armenians were slipping in (the Southwest was another story, although Mexicans have been quietly assimilating almost since the U.S. conquest depending on the social class), but then the aftermath of the Shoah guilted the door open by the 1960s.

Now the East Asian families that have come over have assimilated/intermarried to a shocking degree (at least the Chinese/Japanese/Koreans of the middle class), and now the newcomers from South and Southwest Asia are freshly branded as Horrid Aliens Bringing Strange Ideas/Customs/Ways/Politics... by the grandchildren of immigrants.

There are of course the Big Three Exceptions: Native Americans, being here in the first place, are to a degree as much a matter of self-idendification in many areas due to interbreeding and adoption. Still, those who remain part of thier nation and/or avoid activly concealing thier heritage have an uneven situation depending on thier location (in many cases one simply _must_ get away from the 'Res' in order to make a life for one's self)
The Mexicans and other 'Latin Americans' coming in overland from the South are not so much failing to assimilate even faster than other groups (or leave with thier savings to set up a decent shop back home) as being replaced by new folk looking for work and accepting worse wages/treatment than 'Real Americans'
And of course there is the matter of Us Darkies(tm). A few of the Plantation Mongrels with a higher/more-visible portion of Massa's blood have slipped across the Color Lines for good, but in there was many for whom the presense of a people visibly distinct and unabsorbable into the white population was a great comfort. Yes, the ease with which a lot of migrants sided with the Whites against those who were lower on the social strata than they is a great embarassment to those who trumpet the wonderous egalitarianism of America, although it still must be said than the bulk of us were still in Dixie until the early 1900s and were arguably substitute migrants during the middle of this century when our prediccessors were seeking to actively engratiate themselves with 'White' Society.

Still, the identification of Black as 'Other' has been a considerable complication in our joining the Great American Melting Pot of yore... or even the more current Salad Bowl. There is in fact a considerable regional (Urban North vs Dixie/'Old Country') and class (Ghetto vs Everywhere Else) divide in Black America that few are willing to even acknowledge.

The assimilation into 'White' society is not always a given in and of itself, as many migrants find themselves absorbed into the subcultures noted above. Many are the African and Black Caribbian shopkeepers who beamoan their children's identification with the 'Hood, while many of the Hmong people of Indochina that took American's salt and fled with our forces are now intermarrying with the latino migrant workers of California.

HTG

[heretic]

I'll take that back, of course, if you can demonstrate some meaningful genetic heritage linking yourself, Sigmund Freud, Arial Sharon and Sammy Davis, Jr. Or better yet, demonstrate some meaningful genetic difference between say himself and the average Eastern European.
Insofar as the latter, odds are he can.

As for Jeff's question? Sammy Davis is a convert but I would given better than even odds on a degree of genetic linkage between Sharon and Freud.

Now here is a big question: Let's check for genetic links between your average Israeli Jew and Palestinian Arab. :evilsmile

HTG

[heretic]

So if your family has blonde hair, blue eyes, and white skin then how are they considered "black folks?"
Self Identification. Given the degree of covert and/or nonconcentual 'misigination' that went on in the 'Good Old Days' that is sufficent on the margins.

That and the internalisation of that whole 'One Drop Rule' of course.

HTG (Who notes that some scholars estimate 10% of 'White' Americans (rather more among families of pre Civil War southern origin) in fact possess some African decent)

[west3man]

I dunno that this interests anyone enough for an update, but we'll see...

Thursday I was leaving a local comic shop when a guy annoyed the crap out of me, as he often does. He's a nice guy, though, and I think there's a bit more depth to him than one might gather from first impressions. I didn't wanna hurt his feelings or anything, so I stepped abruptly but without telling him about himself.

The next day I returned and talked to someone who'd been there the day before about what'd happened... but I was at a loss as to how to refer to that guy, whose name I didn't know. I caught myself multiple times as I was about to refer to things about him that were uniquely Black. Hell, when I was telling my girlfriend what I was about to type into this post, I had to catch myself. I tried describing his clothing (which many guys wouldn't remember and I barely did) then followed-up with a description of the event. It worked. My "audience" knew who I was talking about.

That was pretty illustrative of how quickly (legitimately or otherwise) I might refer to someone's race, as opposed to other things about him or her. I don't think it's necessarily a bad thing - especially in this case, as there were multiple people in the shop and the event wasn't necessarily as memorable to others as it was to me.


I don't know that this exercise will result in anything profound, but it's interesting to me and something I'd recommend to others with similar interests.

[Tom]

The next day I returned and talked to someone who'd been there the day before about what'd happened... but I was at a loss as to how to refer to that guy, whose name I didn't know. I caught myself multiple times as I was about to refer to things about him that were uniquely Black. Hell, when I was telling my girlfriend what I was about to type into this post, I had to catch myself.
I don't understand. Why can't you refer to "things about him that were uniquely Black?" If I had to describe my friend who has platinum blond hair and blue eyes, I'd say "he's the guy with platinum blond hair and blue eyes."

[west3man]

I don't understand. Why can't you refer to "things about him that were uniquely Black?" If I had to describe my friend who has platinum blond hair and blue eyes, I'd say "he's the guy with platinum blond hair and blue eyes."
I can. I just decided to participate in this exercise (http://forums.comicbookresources.com/showpost.php?p=2100514&postcount=98) just to see what the results are - to take a closer look at a point -of-view that diverges from my own with regard to the frequency with which one chooses to refer to someone's ethnicity.

What's the value of the exercise? I'm curious to see what my tendencies are, what other people's tendencies are, and how much effort it takes to alter those tendencies... and then to consider what this means.

[Tom]

I can. I just decided to participate in this exercise (http://forums.comicbookresources.com/showpost.php?p=2100514&postcount=98) just to see what the results are - to take a closer look at a point -of-view that diverges from my own with regard to the frequency with which one chooses to refer to someone's ethnicity.

What's the value of the exercise? I'm curious to see what my tendencies are, what other people's tendencies are, and how much effort it takes to alter those tendencies... and then to consider what this means.
Oh.


______

[Converge]

I would have just said, "the black guy."

[Gilda Dent]

I'm listening to "Everyone's a Little Bit Racist" as I write this.

I've thought a lot about the issue of whether we are what we feel ourselves to be, or what society percieves us to be, and have never really come to a concrete answer, though my thinking has usually been concerning issues surrounding sexuality rather than race. I think it applies there also, though.

The question that keeps coming to mind for me is whether our race is our perception of ourselves or how others see us. I can remember visiting my father's family in Japan a couple of times as a teen. He's considered Japanese, because he speaks the language and connects to the culture, while I was considered primarily American because neither of those factors apply to me.

Yet here in the United States, growing up I was thought of first as the Asian/Japanese/Oriental kid, even though I lived in and grew up in the same town as all the white kids who went to my school, spoke the same language with the same accent, ate the same foods, watched the same