View Full Version : T'Challa - African AMERICAN?
Typo Lad
10-28-2005, 05:37 AM
Anyone see the press release on the first page? They call T'Challah "the first "African American" superhero.
Um, since when was he American?
Anyone?
Taskmaster
10-28-2005, 06:15 AM
Anyone see the press release on the first page? They call T'Challah "the first "African American" superhero.
Um, since when was he American?
Anyone?
Just sounds like more of Huddlin's hype, knowing the past storylines he probably has already written a story where T'Challah was originally born in the US and smuggled out to Wakanda later :rolleyes: , but don't try to argue with it or your a racist. :rolleyes:
Typo Lad
10-28-2005, 06:19 AM
Yes yes Hudlin sucks, blah blah blah.
Can I get an answer from someone who... I dunno... reads the book?
mattbib
10-28-2005, 06:28 AM
Hudlin's written nothing to imply that T'Challa is African-American.
This has to simply be a mistake in the press release.
spoon_jenkins
10-28-2005, 06:29 AM
Possible explanations?
1) As I hate the phrase "PC run amok", it could be that some nut didn't want to use the word black.
2) An example of folks at Marvel who are ignorant of their own history. Remember the new Spider-Girl was hyped as the first Latina super-hero. :rolleyes:
the heckler
10-28-2005, 09:29 AM
are you sure he dosent have a citizenship..was he an illegal alien the whole time he was an avenger? of course stark could hook him up with a green card pretty quick i bet
Oh for God's sake. I'm sure everyone knows what was meant by that term.
Black. First black superhero.
Alpha to Omega
10-28-2005, 09:38 AM
are you sure he dosent have a citizenship..was he an illegal alien the whole time he was an avenger? of course stark could hook him up with a green card pretty quick i bet
He has Diplomatic Immunity so he really doesn't need a green card.
Typo Lad
10-28-2005, 09:39 AM
Oh for God's sake. I'm sure everyone knows what was meant by that term.
Black. First black superhero.
Right. But try calling an African citizen African-American, Many consider it condscending.
Now try it on African royalty!
Actually my next door nieghbor is African and he rolls his eyes when he hears anybody say "African American." He finds the race politics in America phony and assinine, as do I.
He's a really cool guy with a great accent.
Ken Ashcroft
10-28-2005, 04:41 PM
Actually my next door nieghbor is African and he rolls his eyes when he hears anybody say "African American." He finds the race politics in America phony and assinine, as do I.
If Black Americans are called African-American, why aren't white Americans called European-Americans?
:confused:
Because white people would become as annoying as people who feel like ghettoizing themselves. The black people I know like the term "black." In second place is the term "American."
Man I really hate that my all-time favorite character, the Black Panther, is getting drug through the phony American race-dumbing-down sewer.
I remember a time when T'Challa fought the Fantastic Four to a standstill. A time when Reed Richards looked at T'challa's underground mechanical jungle with shock and awe. I remember a time when the Black Panther was chosen by Captain American to take his place in the Avengers.
Who is this imposter everyone's talking about unfavorably?
RonnieThunderbolts
10-28-2005, 06:27 PM
If Black Americans are called African-American, why aren't white Americans called European-Americans?
:confused:
Because they are the majority. It doesn't make it right (to me, it is wrong) but it isn't a mystery. The term African American is obviously a response from years ago to many taking offense at the word Black used as a racial category, although I have seen that change in my personal experiences in recent years. More and more I have met Black individuals who prefer to refer to themselves as Black rather than African American.
I think this mystery has been solved. T'Challa is an African. He is NOT an African American, and as it has been stated before, putting an "American" on the end of their continent's name isn't being MORE sensitive to anyone if it is inaccurate.
No, I could care LESS if there is any retcon, or lame excuse, to call T'Challa African American is wrong, and it is most likely, in my assessment, a foul up from some copy writer who was trying to do the right thing.
the heckler
10-28-2005, 06:35 PM
they should of said the first "African Super Hero" and theyd be on the money
as far as him being the first black hero ..i did not know that.. i assumed powerman or black lightning of DC was
from wikipedia:\Non-Caucasian characters
In the late 1960s, superheroes of other racial groups began to appear in Marvel Comics. In 1966, the company introduced the Black Panther, the first serious black superhero. In 1972, Luke Cage, an African-American "hero-for-hire," became the first black superhero to star in his own series.
RonnieThunderbolts
10-28-2005, 06:48 PM
they should of said the first "African Super Hero" and theyd be on the money
as far as him being the first black hero ..i did not know that.. i assumed powerman or black lightning of DC was
from wikipedia:
Yeah, that can be confusing. The wikipedia quote is wrong, plain and simple, by some time. One problem with wikipedia, anyone addind or editing means tons of errors from time to time.
spoon_jenkins
10-28-2005, 08:34 PM
If Black Americans are called African-American, why aren't white Americans called European-Americans?
:confused:
White Americans are called European-Americans - just not often, I guess people haven't really been applying it to themselves. I think European-American is better than the psuedo-scientific Caucasian.
Michael P
10-29-2005, 06:20 AM
And it's at times like this that I point out my extremely white RA in college, who was born in Cape Town, was an African-American.
All humans migrated out of Africa so I suppose we are all African Americans if you go back far enough.
Loren
10-29-2005, 12:41 PM
And it's at times like this that I point out my extremely white RA in college, who was born in Cape Town, was an African-American.
The same is true of Charlize Theron, arguably the second African-American woman to win the Academy Award for Best Actress.
StoneGold
10-29-2005, 12:57 PM
The same is true of Charlize Theron, arguably the second African-American woman to win the Academy Award for Best Actress.
Which does lead to the question, does every African American woman gotta show her boobies to win a statue?
Titan Slade
10-29-2005, 01:33 PM
Which does lead to the question, does every African American woman gotta show her boobies to win a statue?
If giving women statues would get them to show me their boobs, I would be the world's most prolific sculpter :D .
RabidWolfe
10-29-2005, 01:58 PM
It's the press - someone didn't want to say "black" and for some reason can't say "African" or "of African descent."
I still see American paper saying things like "first African-American to win a gold medal for an Australian team" even though the athelete was born and rasied in Australia and is an Australian citizen.
Also - in the original ToD comics, Blade was from London - born and raised. Yet people call him "African-American" all the time.
Phoney Bone
10-29-2005, 06:49 PM
Because it would be silly to call him and African-African?
The Shadow
10-29-2005, 07:57 PM
Because it would be silly to call him and African-African?
:D :D :D
Neolucifer
10-29-2005, 08:03 PM
wow i guess i and my friends can revendicate american citizenship!!!We black-french folks are in fact afro-americans !! YeeeHaaa! !!!
Claymaw
10-30-2005, 12:42 PM
Anyway, the answer to the original question is: African-American has become synonymous with black, especially amongst the kind of thoughtless people who crank out these press-releases at fast-food restaurant rates. So pretty much any black person mentioned by them will be called African American even if they are aliens who never even see or hear of earth, and just happen to look like black humans via some incredibly improbable coincidence.
Scubbily
10-30-2005, 01:18 PM
Because they are the majority. It doesn't make it right (to me, it is wrong) but it isn't a mystery. The term African American is obviously a response from years ago to many taking offense at the word Black used as a racial category, although I have seen that change in my personal experiences in recent years. More and more I have met Black individuals who prefer to refer to themselves as Black rather than African American.
I think this mystery has been solved. T'Challa is an African. He is NOT an African American, and as it has been stated before, putting an "American" on the end of their continent's name isn't being MORE sensitive to anyone if it is inaccurate.
Whites may be the majority in the US, but what gets me is when in South Africa, they classify whites as the "majority" and actual AFRICANS as the minority. It's a disgrace. I'm a so-called "minority" and it DISGUSTS me to be called one. I would rather be named by my heritage instead of by my ethnicity's numbers compared to the so-called "majority" of America. PC may be the way to go, but the best thing to do is to celebrate a person's heritage, instead of degrade them by giving them a lesser title.
Neolucifer
10-30-2005, 02:27 PM
Well i'd go to the extreme and say that PC is way more insulting , and not the way to go . I'm black , and not at all African (of course no offense being one .. and having to even post that show how wrong things are nowadays with that pc stuff :D ) , at least i havent been till 6 generations ago .. and the only minority are those few whites guys among the population of our island .
Loren
10-30-2005, 06:40 PM
Anyone see the press release on the first page? They call T'Challah "the first "African American" superhero.
Um, since when was he American?
But what makes this situation exceptional in terms of Marvel PR is that they can't simply drop 'American' from the sentence. The press release, which remains unchanged (http://marvel.com/company/showarticle.htm?id=148) on Marvel's website, says:
"T'Challa (a.k.a. The Black Panther), the world's first African American Super Hero."
Calling him "the world's first African Super Hero" wouldn't do at all; that makes it sound like he's merely the first superhero from that continent, and Marvel's trying to plug the character's racial identity, not his geographical origin.
Thus, Marvel needs some way to say that T'Challa is the first black superhero without calling him the "first black superhero." And there simply are no acceptable synonyms for "black" when you're talking about someone from Africa.
On the other hand, since Marvel is comfortable with the word in the context of "Black History Month," it's interesting that they're hesitant to use it where it's actually needed.
well maybe Marvel finds all of this trivial and doesn't really care.
Okay trivia fans--who is Marvel's second black superhero?
I know the answer--ha ha!
LordAllMighty
10-31-2005, 11:03 AM
Well i'd go to the extreme and say that PC is way more insulting , and not the way to go . I'm black , and not at all African (of course no offense being one .. and having to even post that show how wrong things are nowadays with that pc stuff :D ) , at least i havent been till 6 generations ago .. and the only minority are those few whites guys among the population of our island .
Okay, I'll bit how are you black but not African? :confused:
Do you just have really dark skin?
BlackKnight
10-31-2005, 11:07 AM
Okay, I'll bit how are you black but not African? :confused:
Do you just have really dark skin?
I have to laugh... The term African American is a pc term. We don't call people orginally from England.. English American or Irish American or Italian American and so on... They are just American, I really don't understand why if you where born in this country you would be anything other then American.
Yes be interested in your ancestor but come on...
On another note what if a black man and his family have been living in say England for 100 years and then move to America are they still African American or are they English American or perhaps are the American... *sigh.
Michael P
10-31-2005, 11:10 AM
Okay, I'll bit how are you black but not African? :confused:
He's not from Africa?
ChildOfTheDarkholde
10-31-2005, 11:52 AM
Which does lead to the question, does every African American woman gotta show her boobies to win a statue?
Whoopie Goldberg and Hattie MacDaniel didn't show their boobs in the films that won them Oscars... :D
LordAllMighty
10-31-2005, 12:01 PM
He's not from Africa?
IIRC, to be black you would have to have originated from Africa, no matter where your family might live now.
BlackKnight
10-31-2005, 12:02 PM
IIRC, to be black you would have to have originated from Africa, no matter where your family might live now.
Once again, that would mean we should call all people who's family orginated in england, english Americans, Ireland, Irish Americans, France, French Americans.
He is American and done like anyone else that is born here.
Neolucifer
10-31-2005, 12:06 PM
Okay, I'll bit how are you black but not African?
i thought i was clear . If my memory is good , the most recent ancestor from Africa i got , was from around 1700 ... the next ones are either black carribean people , mulatos or white colons .
I think i qualify as a non-african . Not that i feel offended , i mean really , but if because i'm black i gotta go around being called an african .. why aint european white people called vikings , celtics , or simply for every white person : caucasian ( and i mean used outside of as cientific context) ?
My friend Scherrie's mother is white and her father is black--so what color or race is she?
LordAllMighty
10-31-2005, 01:14 PM
Once again, that would mean we should call all people who's family orginated in england, english Americans, Ireland, Irish Americans, France, French Americans.
He is American and done like anyone else that is born here.
This has nothing to do with what I asked him/her. :confused:
I asked him/her if they consider themselves black then how can they not be African.
BlackKnight
10-31-2005, 01:18 PM
This has nothing to do with what I asked him/her. :confused:
I asked him/her if they consider themselves black then how can they not be African.
So do you believe if someone is chinesse they shoudl consider themselves chinese American. Or perhaps if someone is Russian they are Russion American.
He is black and he considers himself American not African, and not African American.. I don't get your problem.
LordAllMighty
10-31-2005, 01:31 PM
i thought i was clear . If my memory is good , the most recent ancestor from Africa i got , was from around 1700 ... the next ones are either black carribean people , mulatos or white colons .
If you look black then you are African, you might be mixed with something but like millions of other African American, you’re still of African descendant.
BlackKnight
10-31-2005, 01:37 PM
If you look black then you are African, you might be mixed with something but like millions of other African American, you’re still of African descendant.
Go tell that to someone who has lived in England for all there lives and there parents and there parents before them.. They will tell you they are English not African.
People that are born here are American not African, Irish, French or anything else.
I am droping this pointless arguement.
LordAllMighty
10-31-2005, 02:10 PM
Go tell that to someone who has lived in England for all there lives and there parents and there parents before them.. They will tell you they are English not African.
People that are born here are American not African, Irish, French or anything else.
I am droping this pointless arguement.
Your right it is pointless, because your not understanding what I'm saying. I don't care if he was born in America, England or even Ireland. If he/she consider themselves black then they are descendant from Africa.
That's the whole point I'm trying to make :mad:
Neolucifer
10-31-2005, 02:11 PM
If you look black then you are African, you might be mixed with something but like millions of other African American, you’re still of African descendant.
Technically yes i concur , but just like possibly every white people got the same kind of blood and descendance , and yet arent constantly labelled as such ..
So race is based on how you look.
Kether
10-31-2005, 02:21 PM
Pay attention to the news sometime. I love it when they talk about Haiti and Jamaica and call the people who live there African Americans.
There is a significant portion of the book, Bias by Bernard Goldberg that talks about the reluctance of the media (including this press release) to say anything but African American.
BlackKnight
10-31-2005, 02:24 PM
So race is based on how you look.
Appartently it is, as we have been told by a guy who calles himself "lordallmighty".
What he is missing though is that not all black people are from Africa, which is what he is trying to say, and what he is totally mistaken on.
Neolucifer
10-31-2005, 02:32 PM
sorry if i seem jumpy in my answers ,but its imo because of such weird standards . I dont remember my race being african but rather black , but fine if we should be referred to as a race by our place of origine , then why arent white people referred to as caucasian , or wherever is their true birthplace , and asian people as mongolian (or wherever is their place of origin , i just made that up) ?
It feels as odd to me , than it would be to a Spanish to be told he's a caucasian , when he dont have any direct tie to Caucasus , even from a cultural stand point .
PS : i dont know well your position about this , but i'm not sure i'd be having this kind of discussion (i already have in the past) if i came out white (my mother is white) and was saying i'm not african .
Neolucifer
10-31-2005, 02:38 PM
What he is missing though is that not all black people are from Africa, which is what he is trying to say, and what he is totally mistaken on.
indeed indian people are chinese ! :D .
ps : i also forgot to bring up in my "pedigree" the strong possiblities of chinese and indian blood , as at many occurances , and still nowadays , indian and chinese people emigrates to our islands .
Actually Jamaicans and Haitians were, at one point , slaves from Africa who rebelled gainst the French. But because Jamaica and Haiti don't have the phony American race hustlers, Jamaicans and Haitians are just that: Jamaicans and Haitians. Only in America do we have this idiocy going on with labels and career crybabies.
Far more slaves went to South America than the US, and yet to hear people here talk about it, you'd think they all came here. Actually most went to other parts of Africa and what we now call the Middle East.
LordAllMighty
10-31-2005, 02:56 PM
What he is missing though is that not all black people are from Africa, which is what he is trying to say, and what he is totally mistaken on.
Do you have any understanding of what you just said. :confused:
You do know that all black people are descendant from Africa.
AAMOF, didn't you say you where no longer having this conversation.
QUESTION: How many races are there?
Actually Jamaicans and Haitians were, at one point , slaves from Africa who rebelled gainst the French. But because Jamaica and Haiti don't have the phony American race hustlers, Jamaicans and Haitians are just that: Jamaicans and Haitians. Only in America do we have this idiocy going on with labels and career crybabies.
Far more slaves went to South America than the US, and yet to hear people here talk about it, you'd think they all came here. Actually most went to other parts of Africa and what we now call the Middle East.
God, somebody with logic. THANK YOU :D
My whole point that I'm trying to make is even though Neolucifer doesn't feel that he/she is of African descendant, he/she is still African.
LordAllMighty
10-31-2005, 03:00 PM
Double post :o.
Neolucifer
10-31-2005, 03:08 PM
i've already conceded to you that on a technical level yeah i'm of african origin ...
The only thing i question , is the need of describing us at all cost as african , when such need to "pinpoint the place of origin" doesnt exist when it comes to other races . Whites people are just refered as white people , not caucasian , and asians are just refered as Asians , Not koala Lumpurians (i made that up dont worry) or watever place of asia they may come from . It has nothing to do with a supposed shame of originate from Africa , just a certain curiosity regarding the existant of such standards and labels .
ps : edited to looks less aggressive
Bloopinator
10-31-2005, 03:12 PM
QUESTION: How many races are there
Billions maybe more. But if you're just talking about Earth thousands if you are talking about homosapiens I just said it. One we are one race I don't see why color matters so much. All it is is that our ancestors skin got tanned or whatever as we discovered places and got darker or lighter depending on the temperature. I don't even really notice color anymore I just don't care we shouldn't be refering are colors as a race. We should be refering to our species as a race. God this race crap is annoying.
RabidWolfe
10-31-2005, 03:16 PM
Anyone see the episode of Andy Richter Controls the Universe, where a new employee gets hired because he's "african-american" but then files a discrimination complaint because someone said nasty things about the Irish and he considers himself Irish?
It was great. "We do not tolerate racism here! What did you say about blacks that was so offensive?" "Nothing. It was about the Irish." "Oh - then what's the problem?"
"I'm proud of my Irish heritage."
LordAllMighty
10-31-2005, 03:25 PM
i've already conceded to you that on a technical level yeah i'm of african origin ...
The only thing i question , is the need of describing us at all cost as african , when such need to "pinpoint the place of origin" doesnt exist when it comes to other races . Whites people are just refered as white people , not caucasian , and asians are just refered as Asians , Not koala Lumpurians (i made that up dont worry) or watever place of asia they may come from . It has nothing to do with a supposed shame of originate from Africa , just a certain curiosity regarding the existant of such standards and labels .
ps : edited to looks less aggressive
Sorry Neolucifer, my reply is to another poster, you just happen to be in the subject matter. ;)
Neolucifer
10-31-2005, 03:39 PM
Anyone see the episode of Andy Richter Controls the Universe, where a new employee gets hired because he's "african-american" but then files a discrimination complaint because someone said nasty things about the Irish and he considers himself Irish?
Well i remember a recent ep of the barbershop TV serie wich i aint a fan of , but still was a rather good ep .
In that ep people from the ghetto made an huge noise about a beloved franchise , "Niggaz" ( apparently created by black people) opening a shop in the neighborhood .
A recurrent old geezer of the serie raise the point that the niaggaz name is an insult , but his sayings are dismissed as stupid babbling , because niggaz was created and still owned by black people , so not an insult in such case (wich is beyond stupidity)
In the end it turns out that the shop was owned by an asian guy ,wich simply seeked a popular franchise to open his store . Immediatly manisfestation and formation of a mob happens , denouncing the huge insult of a non-black opening a shop called "Niggaz" :D
Not so much on topic , but it was a funny example of how black can harm themselves , along with the lame predominance to PC from other people .
LordAllMighty
10-31-2005, 03:53 PM
I've always found it odd that black people (myself included) call each other N!GG__, when the word was original used as a insult. How times have changed. :(
That last part was kind of funny though. :evilsmile
Have you all seen that National Geographic program where they trace the DNA from a multi-racial group of people back to their respective geographic gene pools? It's fascinating stuff. The Mexican-looking guy had DNA from Europe, South America and Africa, the black guy was just as mixed, ect. Humans have been interbreeding for thousands of years. For some reason when whites and blacks interbreed, black traits tend to rise to the surface so even though a black kid might appear "black" he can have a mostly European lineage. So all this stuff about blacks being African is true in a way, but it's misleading. We're all mutts, which is confounding to racists of all colors. Finding any "racially pure" person is a pipe dream.
Loren
10-31-2005, 05:59 PM
Finding any "racially pure" person is a pipe dream.
I dunno. I think a certain number of Aborigines might have a pretty good claim.
Gnarl
10-31-2005, 06:22 PM
Do you have any understanding of what you just said. :confused:
You do know that all black people are descendant from Africa.
AAMOF, didn't you say you where no longer having this conversation.
QUESTION: How many races are there?
God, somebody with logic. THANK YOU :D
My whole point that I'm trying to make is even though Neolucifer doesn't feel that he/she is of African descendant, he/she is still African.
Jesus wept, how incredibly eduacationally deprived is it possible to get?
I thought even third world nations provided basic education to people who end up speaking english.
There are no human races. That is quite absolute. The notion that there are human races is a central point of discredited idologies like nazism. Apprpriately enough all lumped together under the headin "racism"
And the fact that someone is black does not mean that they have any african ancestry whatsoever. Far less that they are actually african. An incredibly insulting notion. People skin color should actually trumph their nation and location of birth?
They could have ancestors that lived for forty thousand years in Australia? Or be among the Indonesian relatives of said people? Or be Andaman? Or just atavisms?
I've heard some incredibly incapable reasonings in my life, but this is by far the worst.
xandertheill
10-31-2005, 10:00 PM
um yeah people on comic boards should never discuss race.... ever... hahaha j/k but people just really show me a lot during them.
I am Black, I am Afro-American I am African-american.. and it is unfortunately the best way to proclaim your citizenship & your heritage at the same time. works for some people doesn't work for others... personally i could care less (and lets be real the fact that that there are several terms for us is really just an indicator of the weakness of the current black leadership) if you call some people black they will correct you real quick, i know some mexicans that will correct you if you don't call them mexican-american. its a personal choice that the pc "offend no one" movement decided to roll with. so now people who make that personal choice are all PC to us.
besides my partner on cross investigations & his buddies are all Italian-americans, & know some people who are German-American.... don't act like we aren't the only ones who "hyphenate" ourselves... yet and still caucasian people are caucasian to me unless it visually obvious they are.... italian or something identifyable.... but not every hispanic or latino person i meet is mexican feel me?
on the person saying anyone who is black must be african in decent.... what about indigenous people in austrailia? they are the natives there correct?
second i'm not as nice as the guy with the deadpool pic. don't condescend to us like we don't know our family histories.
yup i call my homies my ni**az, just like I know women who call each other Bit*hes, mexicans who call each other "be*ners" (but then i've never lived more than an hour from mexico), gay people who call each other "Fa*s... these are all context words like F*ck & the meaning can be taken from context when the old white guy on the bus last year called me a ni**er i knew what he meant, When my lifelong friend calls me it i know what he means also. every culture has words once used to demean them that they have latched on to and made them their own it amazes me that this still bothers people much less white people who constantly ask me why they can't say it.... lemme call one of my homegirls a bi*ch one day... when 5 of her friends rush me i guarantee u won't wonder why i shouldn't have said it
& back on to the topic. that was an bad move by marvel or a subconscious cut & paste job to all mediums. How is the King of an African nation African American.
xandertheill
10-31-2005, 10:04 PM
And the fact that someone is black does not mean that they have any african ancestry whatsoever. Far less that they are actually african. An incredibly insulting notion. People skin color should actually trumph their nation and location of birth?
They could have ancestors that lived for forty thousand years in Australia? Or be among the Indonesian relatives of said people? Or be Andaman? Or just atavisms?
I've heard some incredibly incapable reasonings in my life, but this is by far the worst.
Thank you for that...
xandertheill
10-31-2005, 10:11 PM
I've always found it odd that black people (myself included) call each other N!GG__, when the word was original used as a insult. How times have changed. :(
That last part was kind of funny though. :evilsmile
sorry i posted before i quoted anything..
words have the power that you give them. its partially what allows them to changed cause even some black people can't call me Ni**a without catching a bad one. context.... I was really proud of not murdering the guy on the bus. wow i was heated :mad:
but its funny now people on the bus were like :eek: he's gonna kill this guy. bus driver was praying... pleasegetoff pleasegetoff
RonnieThunderbolts
10-31-2005, 10:52 PM
sorry i posted before i quoted anything..
words have the power that you give them. its partially what allows them to changed cause even some black people can't call me Ni**a without catching a bad one. context.... I was really proud of not murdering the guy on the bus. wow i was heated :mad:
but its funny now people on the bus were like :eek: he's gonna kill this guy. bus driver was praying... pleasegetoff pleasegetoff
Yeah. That is real strength man, not hitting that guy. The only times I've ever lowered myself to violence in anger were due to racism, and I am somewhat ashamed. I can't find it in my heart to tolerate bigotry, and it is very hard for me to see bigots as human beings, though I know they are just as valid as anyone else, I just write them off and lose all potential respect for them. There was a recent occassion, where I overheard some teenage morons screaming out "f*ggot" to an effeminate man. If I hadn't been with my mother at the time, who stopped me in my tracks, I'd likely have an arrest that would have cut short my teaching career. Showing that kind of self restraint is difficult, and I appreciate and admire your character for it.
I really think the misguided individual that put "American" on the end of the phrase in that ad copy is just kind of sad, that people are on such automatic pilot that the writer of the copy, who works for Marvel,and the editor of that guy, and everyone else that had to see that didn't notice or correct the mistake. How many mindless drones (not an insult, just an exaggeration of office/work auto-pilot mode) did that have to slip by? Baffles me. I only have two other Kindergarten teachers who I work with, and between the three of us we catch nearly all the typos in our weekly newsletters to the parents. And copy writers and editors have writing and editing as their jobs! I mean, I have to know how to teach them, but they aren't the NAME of my profession. Geez, what does it say about their investment in their own rich history, or their dedication to the product itself.
Marvel... you need a continuity editor... I nominate me (or failing that, Dermie) ;)
xandertheill
10-31-2005, 11:21 PM
Yeah. That is real strength man, not hitting that guy. The only times I've ever lowered myself to violence in anger were due to racism, and I am somewhat ashamed. I can't find it in my heart to tolerate bigotry, and it is very hard for me to see bigots as human beings, though I know they are just as valid as anyone else, I just write them off and lose all potential respect for them. There was a recent occassion, where I overheard some teenage morons screaming out "f*ggot" to an effeminate man. If I hadn't been with my mother at the time, who stopped me in my tracks, I'd likely have an arrest that would have cut short my teaching career. Showing that kind of self restraint is difficult, and I appreciate and admire your character for it.
I really think the misguided individual that put "American" on the end of the phrase in that ad copy is just kind of sad, that people are on such automatic pilot that the writer of the copy, who works for Marvel,and the editor of that guy, and everyone else that had to see that didn't notice or correct the mistake. How many mindless drones (not an insult, just an exaggeration of office/work auto-pilot mode) did that have to slip by? Baffles me. I only have two other Kindergarten teachers who I work with, and between the three of us we catch nearly all the typos in our weekly newsletters to the parents. And copy writers and editors have writing and editing as their jobs! I mean, I have to know how to teach them, but they aren't the NAME of my profession. Geez, what does it say about their investment in their own rich history, or their dedication to the product itself.
Marvel... you need a continuity editor... I nominate me (or failing that, Dermie) ;)
i swear to you if my mom never told me how dissapointed she would be if i responded violently to someone saying something like that to me & he wasn't like 70 i would have killed that dude on the spot. that's how i new i needed to just get off the bus cause hitting him wasn't on the agenda if you feel me, cause he was so persistant about it when i ignored him the 1st 5 times he said it like 5 more and got closer to me to. & no one said anything to him :evilangry
I vote ronnie continuity editor HERE HERE. they need one bad
BlackKnight
11-01-2005, 06:28 AM
Do you have any understanding of what you just said. :confused:
You do know that all black people are descendant from Africa.
AAMOF, didn't you say you where no longer having this conversation.
QUESTION: How many races are there?
God, somebody with logic. THANK YOU :D
My whole point that I'm trying to make is even though Neolucifer doesn't feel that he/she is of African descendant, he/she is still African.
So I suppose black people who origanated in Austraila are also from Africa... *sigh* whatever... :rolleyes:
Michael P
11-01-2005, 08:21 AM
Hey, the prevalent anthropological theory states that all human life can be traced back to the Olduvai region, so we're all Africans.
With that in mind, I'd like to give a shout-out to all my homies out in Southampton. Long Island Represent!
LordAllMighty
11-01-2005, 09:32 AM
Please, if you’re going to debate anything I post here, please come with actual fact and not personal opinion ;). I have no problem with having a logical discussion with a fellow poster but I will not response to you if you mindless post a uneducated reply.
If I am wrong then I will admit to my error but as far as I know, I'm not.:D
Now I will admit that I don’t know everything so if you guys have information supporting either side please posts it. I’m always up for a good discussion.:)
JUst for the record the above comment was not direct at anybody, so please do not take it that way.
As for my race question
Anthropologists generally classify people into a small number of main racial groups, such as the Caucasoid (European or "white"), the Mongoloid (which includes the Chinese, Inuit or Eskimo, and Native Americans), the Negroid (black Africans), and the Australoid (the Australian Aborigines). Within each classification, there may be many different sub-groups.
I dunno. I think a certain number of Aborigines might have a pretty good claim.
Aborigines are somewhat of a weird race, I’ve seen reposts that aborigines people are descendant from Africa (like all humans) but things get kind of fuzzy when you try to classify their actual race.
Around 75000 BC, archaeologists have decided, anatomically modern humans first began sweeping southward into Indochina from China and India. From there, it took awhile for them to figure out such things as "boats," but evidence seems to indicate that the first humans made the move across Indonesia, and thence to Australia and Tasmania, sometime around 40000 BC. (Boats, by the way, may not have been necessary for all of this journey; sea levels are thought to have been lower then and the aborigines may have used a now-submerged land bridge known as the Sahul Shelf.)
Genetically, aborigines are classified as "Australoid;" they're essentially a mixing of Caucasoid, Mongoloid, and Negroid, and it's hard to say who their closest "relatives" would be.
So I suppose black people who origanated in Austraila are also from Africa... *sigh* whatever... :rolleyes:
Read above reply and I never said anything about Aborigines, so back at you.
Bloopinator
11-01-2005, 02:21 PM
Someone should read my post.
Lordallmighty, if you seriously study this topic, you'll see that those racial categories change every few decades. In the 60's there were only four racial groups, but if you go back to the turn of the Century, EVERYBODY was a racial group, for instance Jews and Germans were considered races. So these terms are ever changing social concepts over which there is much debate.
Even now these scientically defined categories raise hackles with the overly-sensitive. It's become almost impossible to discuss racial differences. Right now Jimmy the Greek is in "hot water" because he dared to say black athletes run fast. Jesse Jackson moved immediately in for a photo op, pretending to be offended.
LordAllMighty
11-01-2005, 03:26 PM
Someone should read my post.
I did and it didn't change my opinion :p.
Lordallmighty, if you seriously study this topic, you'll see that those racial categories change every few decades. In the 60's there were only four racial groups, but if you go back to the turn of the Century, EVERYBODY was a racial group, for instance Jews and Germans were considered races. So these terms are ever changing social concepts over which there is much debate.
From what I remember this hasn't changed in a looooong time, so it still stands as the general idea on how we classify race. Unless, there been another race to pop up out of the blue.
Even now these scientically defined categories raise hackles with the overly-sensitive. It's become almost impossible to discuss racial differences.
Believe me I understand that. :rolleyes:
Right now Jimmy the Greek is in "hot water" because he dared to say black athletes run fast. Jesse Jackson moved immediately in for a photo op, pretending to be offended.
I don't even want to get into that issue again on a message board. :(
I personally love differences in people. I want friends of different types--always have. I've always found that if you have a large group of any one type of person, it brings out their worst qualities. Women get cattier, frat boys get more obnoxious, children get brattier--I'm not sure why this is but having a mixed bag seems to civilize behaviour.
Bloopinator
11-01-2005, 03:35 PM
I did and it didn't change my opinion :p.
How and why?
I didn't word my post right, Lord. I meant to say the four racial groups have been recognized since the 60's, but prior to that the definitions were all over the place. This whole topic has been fascinating to me since my college days. I also find it fascinating how American pop culture is so blissfully ignorant on the topic of race.
You know, as I said earlier I have a friend named Scherrie whose mother is white and her father is black. Scherrie looks "bllack" even though she has light skin and hair. So what race is she? If she applied for college, what box would she chose? Is she less black than someone with two black parents?
Race, in legal terms, is a gigantic mindfield waiting to go off. How do we have quotas or set-asides based on race, when nobody can define exactly what race is? DNA is re-writing the books. If a "white person" has 60% African DNA, but appears white, can he or she get that minority set-aside? If not, why not? Or is it just based on how black you look? What about Latinos? What defines that racial category? And since most Latinos are mixed with Spanish Europeans, how much European DNA makes you white?
I don't want to get into any tedious debate on minority set-asides here, I'm talking pure legal definition. We have all these laws based on a very, very shakey concept.
the heckler
11-01-2005, 04:03 PM
heh i've felt that saying "Indian" in regards of native americans was always a little offensive so i see the term Native american serving a purpose ... but most other similar terms are redundant i feel.. like Mexican-American and Canadian-American? Those countries are America. Are people dirived from South America.. South America-American? yeah.. ive always had a problem with that .. it almost seems to be more PC to not try so hard to be PC
Yeah the whole thing is retarded
Gnarl
11-01-2005, 05:46 PM
BobC, interesting thoughts on the lack of a legal definition of "race" And LordAllMighty, than you for responding civilly to a post I made while drunk.
Now, the actual anthropological view of "Race" is summed up by the American Anthropological Association:
In the United States both scholars and the general public have been conditioned to viewing human races as natural and separate divisions within the human species based on visible physical differences. With the vast expansion of scientific knowledge in this century, however, it has become clear that human populations are not unambiguous, clearly demarcated, biologically distinct groups. Evidence from the analysis of genetics (e.g., DNA) indicates that most physical variation, about 94%, lies within so-called racial groups. Conventional geographic "racial" groupings differ from one another only in about 6% of their genes. This means that there is greater variation within "racial" groups than between them. In neighboring populations there is much overlapping of genes and their phenotypic (physical) expressions. Throughout history whenever different groups have come into contact, they have interbred. The continued sharing of genetic materials has maintained all of humankind as a single species.
Physical variations in any given trait tend to occur gradually rather than abruptly over geographic areas. And because physical traits are inherited independently of one another, knowing the range of one trait does not predict the presence of others. For example, skin color varies largely from light in the temperate areas in the north to dark in the tropical areas in the south; its intensity is not related to nose shape or hair texture. Dark skin may be associated with frizzy or kinky hair or curly or wavy or straight hair, all of which are found among different indigenous peoples in tropical regions. These facts render any attempt to establish lines of division among biological populations both arbitrary and subjective.
Historical research has shown that the idea of "race" has always carried more meanings than mere physical differences; indeed, physical variations in the human species have no meaning except the social ones that humans put on them. Today scholars in many fields argue that "race" as it is understood in the United States of America was a social mechanism invented during the 18th century to refer to those populations brought together in colonial America: the English and other European settlers, the conquered Indian peoples, and those peoples of Africa brought in to provide slave labor.
From its inception, this modern concept of "race" was modeled after an ancient theorem of the Great Chain of Being, which posited natural categories on a hierarchy established by God or nature. Thus "race" was a mode of classification linked specifically to peoples in the colonial situation. It subsumed a growing ideology of inequality devised to rationalize European attitudes and treatment of the conquered and enslaved peoples. Proponents of slavery in particular during the 19th century used "race" to justify the retention of slavery. The ideology magnified the differences among Europeans, Africans, and Indians, established a rigid hierarchy of socially exclusive categories underscored and bolstered unequal rank and status differences, and provided the rationalization that the inequality was natural or God-given. The different physical traits of African-Americans and Indians became markers or symbols of their status differences.
As they were constructing US society, leaders among European-Americans fabricated the cultural/behavioral characteristics associated with each "race," linking superior traits with Europeans and negative and inferior ones to blacks and Indians. Numerous arbitrary and fictitious beliefs about the different peoples were institutionalized and deeply embedded in American thought.
Early in the 19th century the growing fields of science began to reflect the public consciousness about human differences. Differences among the "racial" categories were projected to their greatest extreme when the argument was posed that Africans, Indians, and Europeans were separate species, with Africans the least human and closer taxonomically to apes.
Ultimately "race" as an ideology about human differences was subsequently spread to other areas of the world. It became a strategy for dividing, ranking, and controlling colonized people used by colonial powers everywhere. But it was not limited to the colonial situation. In the latter part of the 19th century it was employed by Europeans to rank one another and to justify social, economic, and political inequalities among their peoples. During World War II, the Nazis under Adolf Hitler enjoined the expanded ideology of "race" and "racial" differences and took them to a logical end: the extermination of 11 million people of "inferior races" (e.g., Jews, Gypsies, Africans, homosexuals, and so forth) and other unspeakable brutalities of the Holocaust.
"Race" thus evolved as a worldview, a body of prejudgments that distorts our ideas about human differences and group behavior. Racial beliefs constitute myths about the diversity in the human species and about the abilities and behavior of people homogenized into "racial" categories. The myths fused behavior and physical features together in the public mind, impeding our comprehension of both biological variations and cultural behavior, implying that both are genetically determined. Racial myths bear no relationship to the reality of human capabilities or behavior. Scientists today find that reliance on such folk beliefs about human differences in research has led to countless errors.
At the end of the 20th century, we now understand that human cultural behavior is learned, conditioned into infants beginning at birth, and always subject to modification. No human is born with a built-in culture or language. Our temperaments, dispositions, and personalities, regardless of genetic propensities, are developed within sets of meanings and values that we call "culture." Studies of infant and early childhood learning and behavior attest to the reality of our cultures in forming who we are.
It is a basic tenet of anthropological knowledge that all normal human beings have the capacity to learn any cultural behavior. The American experience with immigrants from hundreds of different language and cultural backgrounds who have acquired some version of American culture traits and behavior is the clearest evidence of this fact. Moreover, people of all physical variations have learned different cultural behaviors and continue to do so as modern transportation moves millions of immigrants around the world.
How people have been accepted and treated within the context of a given society or culture has a direct impact on how they perform in that society. The "racial" worldview was invented to assign some groups to perpetual low status, while others were permitted access to privilege, power, and wealth. The tragedy in the United States has been that the policies and practices stemming from this worldview succeeded all too well in constructing unequal populations among Europeans, Native Americans, and peoples of African descent. Given what we know about the capacity of normal humans to achieve and function within any culture, we conclude that present-day inequalities between so-called "racial" groups are not consequences of their biological inheritance but products of historical and contemporary social, economic, educational, and political circumstances. ]
Statement accurate as of May 17 1998.
This is the actual real-world anthropological opinion on "race"
Also, the notion that dark skin qualifies someone as African runs into a problem with the fact that historically, a rather large fraction of the population of Africa have always been what is called caucasian.
'Always' here understood as meaning "for longer than recorded history."
Democritvs
11-03-2005, 12:26 AM
Could you guys please take the "There's no Race, Let's all f*ck our cousins" discussion to the Jerry Springer forum, please?
There's actual civilized people here, and they're starting to vomit on their on mouth a bit.
Thanks :cool:
west3man
11-03-2005, 03:29 AM
Possible explanations?
1) As I hate the phrase "PC run amok", it could be that some nut didn't want to use the word black.
2) An example of folks at Marvel who are ignorant of their own history. Remember the new Spider-Girl was hyped as the first Latina super-hero. :rolleyes:She's not?
Joe Q. brought her up in a panel discussion, in response to a question I'd asked, and he clearly ... Ooohh. The FIRST?! Yeah. Screw up.
Shellhead
11-03-2005, 06:39 AM
We all belong to the human race. Artificial distinctions based on minor variations in skin color are absurd and petty, and within a century or so, we may all become civilized enough to understand that. By then, maybe we will just be down to discriminating on the basis of personal choice of unproven supreme being. Silly bastards that we are, there will always be some idiotic and false mental shortcuts to determine who is good and who is bad.
west3man
11-03-2005, 07:26 AM
Artificial distinctions based on minor variations in skin color are absurd and petty,
Nice in theory, but inadequate in application.
...unless we disagree about what qualifies as "artificial."
BoosterBronze
11-03-2005, 08:04 AM
Not quite on topic, but kind of funny.
I used to have a couple co-workers, one a naturalized American citizen from Egypt (Arab), the other a Jamaican citizen working in the US (black guy).
Several guys were sitting around the coffee machine, shooting the shit, and another guy said something to the effect of, "We only have one African American on staff."
The Jamaican guy said, "Who? I'm not African or American."
The Egyptian guy shot back with, "Me. I'm both."
I don't know if that was just a vaguely amusing anecdote, or if it professes some profound truth.
howyadoin
11-03-2005, 09:49 AM
they should of said the first "African Super Hero" and theyd be on the moneyBingo.
.
Samurai
11-03-2005, 09:52 AM
This just in! The Black Panther series will be cancelled and relaunched as The African-American Panther!
Shellhead
11-03-2005, 11:57 AM
Nice in theory, but inadequate in application.
...unless we disagree about what qualifies as "artificial."
Until somebody proves that there is a direct relationship between skin pigmentation and brain cells, I believe that all assumptions about people based on their skin color are stupid.
If Black Americans are called African-American, why aren't white Americans called European-Americans?
:confused:
Because most white Americans have a country of origin unlike most black Americans and tend to refer to themselves as such: Irish-American, Italian-American, etc.
west3man
11-03-2005, 12:33 PM
Until somebody proves that there is a direct relationship between skin pigmentation and brain cells, I believe that all assumptions about people based on their skin color are stupid.
I just think your net's too big.
monkeysweat
11-03-2005, 01:36 PM
Because most white Americans have a country of origin unlike most black Americans and tend to refer to themselves as such: Irish-American, Italian-American, etc.
I'm saying. I don't know why people pretend that they don't call themselves Irish or Greek or Polish or whatever. But somehow there's a problem with someone wishing to be identified with Africa.
Shellhead
11-03-2005, 01:45 PM
I'm saying. I don't know why people pretend that they don't call themselves Irish or Greek or Polish or whatever. But somehow there's a problem with someone wishing to be identified with Africa.
That's an increasingly retro viewpoint that you're expressing. While I might like to brag about my heritage, it gets very tedious to say that I am an Irish/Italian/Swedish/Slavic-American. My last girlfriend was Irish and Kenyan... would our kids be expected to tell everyone that they are Kenyan/Irish/Italian/Swedish/Slavic-American? And will sensible people whip out a painter's color wheel to try to identify if those kids are sufficiently white or sufficiently black for whatever stupid reasons that anybody still cares about those labels?
That's an increasingly retro viewpoint that you're expressing. Honestly? No it's not. Maybe things are different in your neck of the woods or among your social circle, but everywhere I look, Americans are defining themselves by their ethnicity.
Shellhead
11-04-2005, 06:37 AM
Honestly? No it's not. Maybe things are different in your neck of the woods or among your social circle, but everywhere I look, Americans are defining themselves by their ethnicity.
Feels like the melting pot around here. The guy who brags about being irish or italian or whatever is pretty rare and sort of weird around here, because everybody seems to be half-this and a quarter-that. Especially with the younger ones, where there seems to be more blending and blurring or racial or ethnic identity. My best friend is 100% german, and while he is secretly proud of that, he keeps it pretty quiet because most people don't care.
west3man
11-04-2005, 06:40 AM
Feels like the melting pot around here. The guy who brags about being irish or italian or whatever is pretty rare and sort of weird around here,[snip]
Defining oneself by or acknowledging one's ethnicity isn't the same thing as bragging about it.
Thinking about it in terms of "bragging," is one of the stumbling blocks on the path to greater understanding, imo.
Defining oneself by or acknowledging one's ethnicity isn't the same thing as bragging about it.
I have to agree.
I think the point can be made that Americans are too hung up on their ethnicity and that this is damaging to the social fabric of the country, but I think it's counterproductive to single out one group (Blacks) for something that everybody does.
west3man
11-04-2005, 06:59 AM
I have to agree.
I think the point can be made that Americans are too hung up on their ethnicity and that this is damaging to the social fabric of the country, but I think it's counterproductive to single out one group (Blacks) for something that everybody does.
I was just about to walk away, but this kinda made me think of this in a new way.
Hey Shellhead, (real question here) do you think that "gay pride" events or moments are about "bragging?"
Shellhead
11-04-2005, 07:13 AM
I was just about to walk away, but this kinda made me think of this in a new way.
Hey Shellhead, (real question here) do you think that "gay pride" events or moments are about "bragging?"
Interesting question. No, because I think that gender orientation is an important aspect of a person's identity, one that affects their lifestyle in many ways. Unlike skin color or hair color or eye color, being gay is about *who* a person is, and not just some superficial characteristics.
Separate from the dna that we are born with, each of us is raised within a context, and that context can have a positive or negative impact. Call it culture, and then we have something meaningful to talk about, with respect to identity and maybe even pride.
Ed Cunard
11-04-2005, 07:14 AM
Interesting question. No, because I think that gender orientation is an important aspect of a person's identity, one that affects their lifestyle in many ways. Unlike skin color or hair color or eye color, being gay is about *who* a person is, and not just some superficial characteristics.
Separate from the dna that we are born with, each of us is raised within a context, and that context can have a positive or negative impact. Call it culture, and then we have something meaningful to talk about, with respect to identity and maybe even pride.
Ethnicity plays into culture, though. Or, at least, it can.
Shellhead
11-04-2005, 07:32 AM
Ethnicity plays into culture, though. Or, at least, it can.
Sure, but only so long as somebody confines themself to that culture. The Amish will probably retain a strong identity for at least another one years, for example. Native americans still have some incentive to stay on their reservations, at least the ones with successful casinos. But the rest of us are living in a melting pot, a social experiment unparallelled in the history of mankind. Maybe some people are attracted to partners that look like siblings, but more people are looking for somebody different. In my extended family of aunts, uncles, and cousins, we've got nearly two dozen ethnic groups included. It's not hard to imagine that my family will continue to diversify and lose any convenient labels in time.
Draconomicon
11-04-2005, 07:33 AM
Race is irrelevant.
To a Tiger, we are all just food.
west3man
11-04-2005, 08:10 AM
Originally Posted by Ed Cunard
Ethnicity plays into culture, though. Or, at least, it can.Sure, but only so long as somebody confines themself to that culture.
I disagree.
I don't necessarily lose my individual identity when exposed to other individuals, so I wouldn't necessarily lose my cultural identity when exposed to other cultures.
Sure, but only so long as somebody confines themself to that culture. Shell, no offense, but I get the impression you don't know what you're talking about. That you don't have an ethnic identity doesn't mean the vast majority of Americans don't. I live in one of the largest, most ethnically diverse sities in the U.S. I get exposed to all different kinds of cultures every day. That does not change the fact that my typical Irish Catholic upbringing has shaped my past and my outlook.
Shellhead
11-04-2005, 08:16 AM
Originally Posted by Ed Cunard
Ethnicity plays into culture, though. Or, at least, it can.
I disagree.
I don't necessarily lose my individual identity when exposed to other individuals, so I wouldn't necessarily lose my cultural identity when exposed to other cultures.
I didn't explain myself clearly. When you start a family with someone of a different culture, your kids will probably have a cultural identity that is somewhat different than your own. Now, repeat the process for a few generations and see what you get.
west3man
11-04-2005, 08:24 AM
I didn't explain myself clearly. When you start a family with someone of a different culture, your kids will probably have a cultural identity that is somewhat different than your own. Now, repeat the process for a few generations and see what you get.
You get change. That doesn't mean cultural identity isn't real and it doesn't necessarily mean that one's descendents will be devoid of one.
You seem to agree that culture is defined by more than just one's genes, so clearly upbringing and other experiences are a factor. With the "right" upbringing and experiences, one might have a strong, well-defined identity.
Keep in-mind that what we define as a single, unique cultural identity, these days probably is the result of multiple cultures mixing (physically and otherwise), yet they still exist in one form or another.
And the vast majority of Americans marry within their own race or ethnic groups. I hope what you're saying happens someday, Shell but it hasn't happened yet and it's going to take more than "a few" generations.
Shellhead
11-04-2005, 08:31 AM
Shell, no offense, but I get the impression you don't know what you're talking about. That you don't have an ethnic identity doesn't mean the vast majority of Americans don't. I live in one of the largest, most ethnically diverse sities in the U.S. I get exposed to all different kinds of cultures every day. That does not change the fact that my typical Irish Catholic upbringing has shaped my past and my outlook.
I minored in sociology, so I don't believe that I'm completely clueless about this topic. First-generation immigrants have a very strong ethnic identity. It doesn't matter why they moved away, they are still going to identify with the culture they came from. Their kids tend to rebel fiercely as teenagers, and gang activity is pretty common with second-generation immigrants. REmember the italian and irish gangs of the 20's? It's hard for parents to maintain control when they barely speak a language that their kids have become fluent in, especially when that language is the dominant one in their new homeland. By the third generation, there is more assimilation into mainstream culture.
All of the above is complicated by mankind's ongoing obsession with skin color, which may be why asians and latinos are assimilating more quickly in america than blacks have been. It's only been roughly 40 years since the big breakthroughs of the civil rights movement, which gives me hope that blacks will share equally in the prosperity, hopefully in my lifetime.
But before we are too quick to blame skin color for everything, what about the plight of south asians in America? By south asian, I mean people from Pakistan, India, and nearby countries. Well, they don't have a plight. They have the highest average income in the U.S., higher even than white people. I assume that it's because they tend to take jobs in either healthcare or the tech sector. Anyway, this is a case where skin color is inconsequential compared to a culture that is focused on education and achievement.
west3man
11-04-2005, 08:35 AM
I minored in sociology, so I don't believe that I'm completely clueless about this topic. First-generation immigrants have a very strong ethnic identity. It doesn't matter why they moved away, they are still going to identify with the culture they came from. Their kids tend to rebel fiercely as teenagers, and gang activity is pretty common with second-generation immigrants. REmember the italian and irish gangs of the 20's? It's hard for parents to maintain control when they barely speak a language that their kids have become fluent in, especially when that language is the dominant one in their new homeland. By the third generation, there is more assimilation into mainstream culture. More cultural assimilation is not always the same thing as cultural obliteration.
As far as the rest of your points, I think you're arguing about something else entirely.
I minored in sociology, so I don't believe that I'm completely clueless about this topic. First-generation immigrants have a very strong ethnic identity. It doesn't matter why they moved away, they are still going to identify with the culture they came from. Their kids tend to rebel fiercely as teenagers, and gang activity is pretty common with second-generation immigrants. REmember the italian and irish gangs of the 20's? It's hard for parents to maintain control when they barely speak a language that their kids have become fluent in, especially when that language is the dominant one in their new homeland. By the third generation, there is more assimilation into mainstream culture.No one's arguing otherwise. It's just that you seem to be claiming that post-assimilation, all ethnic identifiers cease and that's just not true.
Dreadstar
11-04-2005, 08:50 AM
Loren pointed up the crux of this topic to me:
Thus, Marvel needs some way to say that T'Challa is the first black superhero without calling him the "first black superhero." And there simply are no acceptable synonyms for "black" when you're talking about someone from Africa.
So... basically they were afraid of offending someone by using the designation "black," is that about right?
[ Yakov Smirnoff ] I love this country! [ /Yakov Smirnoff ]
Johnny_Storm
11-04-2005, 08:56 AM
I think writers should be able to ignore the PC "African American" or "Asian American" label unless the people in the article have a preference for it. If you need to make a point about skin color, just say the color "black" "yellow" "red" "marroon" whatever.
west3man
11-04-2005, 09:03 AM
I think writers should be able to ignore the PC "African American" or "Asian American" label unless the people in the article have a preference for it. If you need to make a point about skin color, just say the color "black" "yellow" "red" "marroon" whatever.
Damned if I didn't agree with you... until I saw your transition from "black" to "yellow," etc.
I mean, I wouldn't have had a problem with them using "Black," but I think this moment is the first time I've connected so much with certain people's objection to the term. Weird.
Usually it's, "My skin's not Black, so don't call me that." But maybe it runs a little deeper than that. No one would call an Asian character the first "yellow" super-hero or a Native American character the first "red" super-hero. Well, SOMEone would, but I doubt it'd be very well-received. I wonder why it is when we're talking about "Black" and "white" people... and increasingly with "brown" people.
Hm.
Shellhead
11-04-2005, 09:07 AM
No one's arguing otherwise. It's just that you seem to be claiming that post-assimilation, all ethnic identifiers cease and that's just not true.
You're correct, I admit it.
Just this last weekend, I was at a Halloween party with a lot of people from my larp group. Every time this group has one of their big parties, there is a small group that holds "the mead ceremony." This one guy brings a bottle of mead, and around midnight, he yells out, "hey, is anybody irish here? Part irish?" The irish and part-irish (including me) gather in a circle and sing a folksy U2 ballad "Van Diemen's Land", changing the chorus from "hold me now" to "hold mead now." After singing together, we pass the bottle around the circle until everybody's had at least a couple of swigs, then finish it.
And I admit, I do feel a stronger sense of pride and identity, especially when singing lines like "when an honest man sees an honest wage." But I distrust the feeling too, it just seems to easy to cross over from pride to a sense of superiority that leads to discrimination.
LegacyInfTy
11-11-2005, 02:15 PM
i'm a ni**a for life. that is me and that is what i will be. My kids will be ni**as and i'm proud of that.
Black panther to me, is my ni**a. he's a strong black man, and the ONLY strong black man black men such as myself and my black male children have had to look up to.
Luke Cage has been a mockery of a character and so has damn near every other black character. But BP? he's been like our greatest shining hope. my ni**a.
so to me? it's blatant disprespect to call him an african american. It's saying to me we don't give a f*ck about your history, about your beloved characters. It's not that important for us to give a damn about. ha ha.
it was a slap in the face. Now..............do i really look to deep into it? Nah i don't i expect this. It's the same way as when white people call Tupac TuPACK. or when they intentionally mispronounce any other black persons name. it's disrespect.
But i expect this stuff. the only way to fight it is through educating our children on what they are.
These people around here who walk around and say, "i'm not black" eat a d*ck. u ignorant piece of worthless. YOU ARE. face. this is what it is. You can holler all that sh*t u want when u're hangin from a noose somewhere from a tree. Or when you have children with your little white prize and your child still comes out darker than Amiri Baraka, and something happens to her.
you'll be a ni**er. and you'll have a lil ni**er kids. and your white prize will be a ni**er lover. that's how it is. and you feed into it by not being prideful in your origins. Upholding yourself in your heart and mind is what will make you stronger as a person and for your people.
and yes you do have a responsibility to your people. the very idea that you don't believe you don't says alot about you. Tells me who's side you're going to be on.
anyone who doesn't want to be called black, i mean it's their perogative. I don't want to be called by my name but that's what my mother calls me. She made me she named me. so that's what it is.
call yourself what you want but don't expect other people to know what to call you.
i personally don't like the whole idea of having a 100 different names. I'm african and american by nationality. that's how i'm viewed. KRS1 put it best for me. "if a cat has kittens in an oven do you call'em bisquits?"
LegacyInfTy
11-11-2005, 02:16 PM
You're correct, I admit it.
Just this last weekend, I was at a Halloween party with a lot of people from my larp group. Every time this group has one of their big parties, there is a small group that holds "the mead ceremony." This one guy brings a bottle of mead, and around midnight, he yells out, "hey, is anybody irish here? Part irish?" The irish and part-irish (including me) gather in a circle and sing a folksy U2 ballad "Van Diemen's Land", changing the chorus from "hold me now" to "hold mead now." After singing together, we pass the bottle around the circle until everybody's had at least a couple of swigs, then finish it.
And I admit, I do feel a stronger sense of pride and identity, especially when singing lines like "when an honest man sees an honest wage." But I distrust the feeling too, it just seems to easy to cross over from pride to a sense of superiority that leads to discrimination.
i can't imagine why being proud u're irish would be a source of shame. don't believe that you're more than you are and then it's all good. be happy you're irish, sing your irish folks songs. embrace your differences, the things that make u different and at the same time gives you kinship with your irish bredren.
it'd be criminal to deny i think.
Charles RB
11-11-2005, 03:30 PM
If you're so willing to say "nigger" and "nigga", why do you keep 'bleeping out' the G's? It looks daft.
west3man
11-11-2005, 04:47 PM
If you're so willing to say "nigger" and "nigga", why do you keep 'bleeping out' the G's? It looks daft.
Probably the same reason some people type "f*ck" instead of "fuck."
I go back and forth between the two. On the surface, it seems kinda pointless, but when you'd be surprised how these little things make a difference to some people. I could tell you stories.
LegacyInfTy
11-11-2005, 05:25 PM
If you're so willing to say "nigger" and "nigga", why do you keep 'bleeping out' the G's? It looks daft.
wasn't sure of what is and what is not allowed on this mb. some mb's don't care some do. I've only posted here a few times don't have the feel of the place yet. havent' read enough threads to know what can be said or what can't. I've seen them blotted out before. So i figured that was a board mandate or some shit
Typo Lad
11-12-2005, 02:59 PM
Legacy,
I love you. In a totally hetero way, but it's love.
Shellhead
11-12-2005, 05:51 PM
wasn't sure of what is and what is not allowed on this mb. some mb's don't care some do. I've only posted here a few times don't have the feel of the place yet. havent' read enough threads to know what can be said or what can't. I've seen them blotted out before. So i figured that was a board mandate or some shit
I think that profanity was frowned upon here in the past, and really offensive profanity could get you banned, but it seems like standards have relaxed here in the last year.
vBulletin® v3.6.4, Copyright ©2000-2008, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.