View Full Version : New Thunderbolts #14 (Spoilers)
Alpha to Omega
10-26-2005, 04:43 PM
Well the new issue arrived. It's basically the Thunderbolts kicking the New Avengers' asses intercut with Hank Pym, Warbird and Gyrich talking and Spider-Woman kicking Joystick's ass. At the end they reveal that there working with Zemo. Pym also reveals he's planted nano-spy's in the Baxter Building, Stark Tower and that when Dallas visited the Thunderbolts she planted them there. IMO this issue blew. The New Avengers come off more amateurish then even Bendis writes them and the Thunderbolts come off as Mary Sue's. Also Pym and Warbird were OOC trusting Zemo a Nazi they've fought for years over freaking Captain America.
riotgear
10-26-2005, 04:55 PM
Also Pym and Warbird were OOC trusting Zemo a Nazi they've fought for years over freaking Captain America.
Just a minor note. Helmut Zemo is an elitist terrorist; his father Heinrich was the Nazi. Minor differences, but just wanted to point out that he was never a Nazi.
mattbib
10-26-2005, 04:58 PM
Pym also reveals he's planted nano-spy's in the Baxter Building, Stark Tower and that when Dallas visited the Thunderbolts she planted them there. IMO this issue blew.Pym didn't plant nano-spies in the Stark Tower, that's what Joystick was doing.
Anyway, I absolutely loved this issue.
First, the art was excellent, with nice bolt coloring. Grummet was a little sparse on some backgrounds, but usually in panels in which the action was the highlight. Bery old-school which I love.
Storywise, it was great. Songbird is the next great leader of the Marvel Universe. She's a gifted tactician and clearly able to inspire, if not control, her teammates. Plus she has a conscious.
The Avengers were in character, yet I was very happy when the TBolts whooped them. It's the Avengers fault for underestimating them and overestimating their own powers...clearly the Avengers haven't had too many team training sessions at this point.
The closing pages left my mouth gaping! Joystick's "win" against Spider-Woman was classic. I'm very intrigued as to what the great threat is that would drive Gyrich, Pym, Warbird and Dallas to work with Zemo. And does Jan know about Hank's involvement in this? What will that mean for their relationship? And ultimately with this group's relationships with the FF, the New Avengers, and the TBolts? I can hear the strain now.
Tien Long
10-26-2005, 05:01 PM
I enjoyed the issue, though it was a bitter pill to swallow, seeing the Avengers beaten by the Thunderbolts. Still, I think a good excuse is that the New Avengers team is basically that, new. Unlike the Thunderbolts, they're still not used to being or acting as a team and clearly they underestimated their old foes. These aren't the same third-tier losers any of them fought before.
TheSentryLives
10-26-2005, 06:03 PM
Funny,Sentry was the only one with photon who was going toe to toe but photon went out of his way to avoid going blow for blow...instead he would just transport the energy elsewhere,or transport him somewhere else before he was "not gonna hold back" anymore.
Phoney Bone
10-26-2005, 06:20 PM
HA! Thunderbolts punk the New Axengers.
BEAUTIFUL!
CyberCoyote
10-26-2005, 07:29 PM
I loved it. Now in a straight up fight neither team ready would it go that way? No. Can the T-Bolts kick their butts anytime anywhere like 'Bird claimed? No.
But it all made sense the way Fabian wrote it, the T-Bolts used guerilla (sp?) tactics and took out the NA nicely. As far as Sentry, Photon just had to keep him out of it, and that's what he did. Would I want to be Genis if Sentry comes looking for him? Heck no (not that Mar-Genis-Photon-vel Jr hasn't faced some seriously powerful foes before) Would I be demoralized as heck if I were Spidey right now? Yup. :)
Whatever the H-E- double toothpicks is going on with Zemo I've no idea, but I've faith this'll turn out to be good. Being an FF fan I can't imagine Reed would ever allow mini-spy cameras to be so easily placed in the Baxter Building, but maybe we'll get an explanation for that one too soon.
Storywise, it was great. Songbird is the next great leader of the Marvel Universe. She's a gifted tactician and clearly able to inspire, if not control, her teammates. Plus she has a conscious.
I disagree about the conscience thing.
The fact is under Songbird, she's converted the T-Bolts into mindless government thugs. The T-Bolts attacked innocent people for no other reason than because the government threatened them. It's both immoral and cowardly.
pesmerga316
10-26-2005, 09:42 PM
The way Sentry was handled made somewhat of sense, although when he got pissed off Genis was quick to get him the hell out of there so he didn't kick the living crap out of the whole lot of them lol and Im pretty sure Genis knew thats exactly what would happen (which ties into that huge thread about Sentry vs Photon and photon actually being able to beat him, alls he did was stall and distract)
Bruce Wayne Jr.
10-26-2005, 10:46 PM
HA! Thunderbolts punk the New Axengers.
BEAUTIFUL!
I was thinking the very same thing! ;)
mattbib
10-26-2005, 11:07 PM
I disagree about the conscience thing.
The fact is under Songbird, she's converted the T-Bolts into mindless government thugs. The T-Bolts attacked innocent people for no other reason than because the government threatened them. It's both immoral and cowardly.She exhibited regret for attacking the Avengers in this issue. That's a clear sign of a conscience. I don't think the attack was either moral or immoral. Cowardly? Sure. But definitely not the deciding factor on whether or not Melissa has a conscience.
Dermie
10-26-2005, 11:17 PM
I disagree about the conscience thing.
The fact is under Songbird, she's converted the T-Bolts into mindless government thugs. The T-Bolts attacked innocent people for no other reason than because the government threatened them. It's both immoral and cowardly.
First off, Songbird didn't covert the T-Bolts into anything...aside from a co-ordinated and effective combat unit, which they were not under Abe's leadership.
But Songbird did not go looking for the government involved--they came to her and imposed it on her. It was not her decision, so blaming her for it is unfair. As for them being "mindless thugs", well, the amount of thinking that went into their strategy proves pretty clearly that they certainly aren't mindless! ;)
The New Avengers being "innocent people" is highly debatable, considering Wolverine recently went on a murdering spree, Spider-Woman has ties to a corrupt SHIELD organization, Sentry is mentally unstable and dangerous, etc.
And as for the T-Bolts giving in to government threat--they had good reason. Half the T-Bolts are either wanted criminals or are on-parole! The only reason the T-Bolts have been allowed to operate without interference thus far is because they have the CSA's approval. Without that, R-Man could be deported, Speed Demon and Joystick could be arrested, and Blizzard and Abe could have their parole's violated. No more T-Bolts. So, given those conditions, Songbird agreeing to their conditions makes sense--unless she wants her team to become outlaws on the run again.
Is Songbird *happy* about it? No--she says so several times throughout the story. But she did what she had to do to protect her team.
She exhibited regret for attacking the Avengers in this issue. That's a clear sign of a conscience. I don't think the attack was either moral or immoral. Cowardly? Sure. But definitely not the deciding factor on whether or not Melissa has a conscience.
I don't see how attacking innocent people to protect your own butt can possibly NOT be considered immoral. The Avengers didn't do anything to deserve that. And it was motivated by purely selfish reasons. I think hurting people for selfish reasons is pretty much acting immorally by default.
But I guess she did show some signs of conscience. SHe knew it was wrong. The knowledge that it was wrong obviously didn't stop her, so I'll only give her some credit.
Spiderchick1974
10-26-2005, 11:21 PM
Could someone spoil me?
In the first post I read that Spider-Woman kicked Joystick's ass, but then another poster mentioned that Joystick's "win" against Spider-Woman was classic.
What exactly happened?
If you want to PM instead, that's cool too.
I am getting this and NA # 12 next week, but i am dying to know all that happens in those two books ,regarding Jessica.
PLEASE?
Thanks! :)
EmmettHULK
10-26-2005, 11:28 PM
Who would've thought that a one-time third-rate villainess (IMO) like Screaming Mimi, would one day become one of Marvel's most vital, complex and interesting female characters?
For all those who are quick to call certain characters "lame", this proves that it's all about the writing.
If a writer takes the time and interest in a particular character, it don't matter how "lame" she/he is, he could blossom into a kickass property.
Songbird is just the coolest.
Dermie
10-26-2005, 11:31 PM
Could someone spoil me?
In the first post I read that Spider-Woman kicked Joystick's ass, but then another poster mentioned that Joystick's "win" against Spider-Woman was classic.
What exactly happened?
If you want to PM instead, that's cool too.
I am getting this and NA # 12 next week, but i am dying to know all that happens in those two books ,regarding Jessica.
PLEASE?
Thanks! :)
Jessica does kick Joystick's butt--but Joystick still wins, because even though she was beaten to a bloody pulp, she still accomplished her mission, with Spider-Woman none the wiser about what actually happened.
First off, Songbird didn't covert the T-Bolts into anything...aside from a co-ordinated and effective combat unit, which they were not under Abe's leadership.
But Songbird did not go looking for the government involved--they came to her and imposed it on her. It was not her decision, so blaming her for it is unfair. As for them being "mindless thugs", well, the amount of thinking that went into their strategy proves pretty clearly that they certainly aren't mindless! ;)
The New Avengers being "innocent people" is highly debatable, considering Wolverine recently went on a murdering spree, Spider-Woman has ties to a corrupt SHIELD organization, Sentry is mentally unstable and dangerous, etc.
And as for the T-Bolts giving in to government threat--they had good reason. Half the T-Bolts are either wanted criminals or are on-parole! The only reason the T-Bolts have been allowed to operate without interference thus far is because they have the CSA's approval. Without that, R-Man could be deported, Speed Demon and Joystick could be arrested, and Blizzard and Abe could have their parole's violated. No more T-Bolts. So, given those conditions, Songbird agreeing to their conditions makes sense--unless she wants her team to become outlaws on the run again.
Is Songbird *happy* about it? No--she says so several times throughout the story. But she did what she had to do to protect her team.
It ultimately was Songsbirds decision because she agreed to attack the Avengers.
As for the T-Bolts sucumbing to the CSA's threat... it makes sense, it's just not right. It's straight up wrong to go around attackig people that don't deserve it. She did do what she needed to do to protect her own team... in other words the T-Bolts were acting selfishly.
If Cap was in the exact same position, does anyone think he would have agreed to this? Me neither.
As for the Avengers, some of them have done questionable things. But no, they don't deserve to be randomly attacked without provocation. Certainly not Cap, Iron Man, Cage, or Spidey.
This simply isn't what heroes do. They don't attack other people to protect their own butts... they put themselves on the line for the sake of others. Like I said, it's both cowardly and immoral.
Dermie
10-26-2005, 11:50 PM
It ultimately was Songsbirds decision because she agreed to attack the Avengers.
It was the CSA's decision to do it in the first place. They *forced* Songbird into agreeing. Is a decision made under duress really a fair choice?
Also, the T-Bolts all went along with it--none of them refused to participate. Trying to lay the blame for this all on Songbird is totally inaccurate.
As for the T-Bolts sucumbing to the CSA's threat... it makes sense, it's just not right.
No one said it was "right"...or "wrong". It is a matter of perspective. The CSA have their reasons for doing what they're doing. Are they right? Depends on how you look at it. Obviously, your perspective is that it is flat-out, no questions asked, no grey area wrong. Fair enough. But I think there are more shades of grey to the situation.
It's straight up wrong to go around attackig people that don't deserve it.
There is still the question of whether or not it is "deserved", depending on whose judgement you're talking about.
If Cap was in the exact same position, does anyone think he would have agreed to this? Me neither.
On the contrary, in the Avengers/Thunderbolts miniseries Cap attacked the Thunderbolts, and planted a spy in their midst--and the only thing they had done to "provoke" that was to save lives and try to help people. So it seems to me that Cap is entirely capable of launching unprovoked attacks against people, if he has the right motivation.
And Cap and the Avengers HAVE given in to government pressure before, when threatened to have their priority clearances revoked. So I don't think it is entirely impossible that Cap might have gone along with this is the positions had been reversed (of course, the positions CAN'T ever be completely reversed, since Cap doesn't have the criminal records to be used against him--so to try and compare the two sides equally doesn't work)
As for the Avengers, some of them have done questionable things. But no, they don't deserve to be randomly attacked without provocation.
Again, it depends on what you call provocation. The CSA would argue that they have already provoked it, by assembling a new team without government approval or sanctions, interfering in a SHIELD operation, etc.
This simply isn't what heroes do. They don't attack other people to protect their own butts... they put themselves on the line for the sake of others.
You seem to forget that the Thunderbolts *aren't* "heroes" in the traditional sense. They are former villains--which means they don't think the same way "heroes" do, and they play by a different set of rules.
Like I said, it's both cowardly and immoral.
That's one way of looking at it. On the other hand, from another point of view they followed orders from their government and completed a dangerous mission--which makes them patriotic and heroic. Its a matter of perspective. ;)
Spiderchick1974
10-26-2005, 11:52 PM
One last question: The Spider-Woman/Joystick fight was separate from the big NA/T-Bolts rumble?
Was Jessica present when the male Avengers fought the T-Bolts?
Thanks a lot ! ( I won't bother u with any more qestions...promise!!! :D
Dermie
10-26-2005, 11:54 PM
One last question: The Spider-Woman/Joystick fight was separate from the big NA/T-Bolts rumble?
Was Jessica present when the male Avengers fought the T-Bolts?
Thanks a lot ! ( I won't bother u with any more qestions...promise!!! :D
Yes, the fights were separate. No, Jessica was not present for the other fight--they took place at the same time.
Spiderchick1974
10-27-2005, 12:08 AM
Yes, the fights were separate. No, Jessica was not present for the other fight--they took place at the same time.
Thanks! :)
It was the CSA's decision to do it in the first place. They *forced* Songbird into agreeing. Is a decision made under duress really a fair choice?
Also, the T-Bolts all went along with it--none of them refused to participate. Trying to lay the blame for this all on Songbird is totally inaccurate.
No one said it was "right"...or "wrong". It is a matter of perspective. The CSA have their reasons for doing what they're doing. Are they right? Depends on how you look at it. Obviously, your perspective is that it is flat-out, no questions asked, no grey area wrong. Fair enough. But I think there are more shades of grey to the situation.
There is still the question of whether or not it is "deserved", depending on whose judgement you're talking about.
On the contrary, in the Avengers/Thunderbolts miniseries Cap attacked the Thunderbolts, and planted a spy in their midst--and the only thing they had done to "provoke" that was to save lives and try to help people. So it seems to me that Cap is entirely capable of launching unprovoked attacks against people, if he has the right motivation.
And Cap and the Avengers HAVE given in to government pressure before, when threatened to have their priority clearances revoked. So I don't think it is entirely impossible that Cap might have gone along with this is the positions had been reversed (of course, the positions CAN'T ever be completely reversed, since Cap doesn't have the criminal records to be used against him--so to try and compare the two sides equally doesn't work)
Again, it depends on what you call provocation. The CSA would argue that they have already provoked it, by assembling a new team without government approval or sanctions, interfering in a SHIELD operation, etc.
You seem to forget that the Thunderbolts *aren't* "heroes" in the traditional sense. They are former villains--which means they don't think the same way "heroes" do, and they play by a different set of rules.
That's one way of looking at it. On the other hand, from another point of view they followed orders from their government and completed a dangerous mission--which makes them patriotic and heroic. Its a matter of perspective. ;)
The CSA asked the T-Bolts to do this, and the T-Bolts accepted. I'll agree they all get the blame rather than just Melisa, though Melisa gets the most responsibility since she's the leader.
As for motives... the CSA's motives aren't black and white. But the T-Bolts are. They are being threatened, and are doing this to save their own butts. That's pretty black and white to me. Show me ONCE where Songbird or the T-Bolts though they were serving some greater good by attacking the Avengers?
As for the Avengers unprovoked actions in the mini-series... to say the T-Bolts have done nothing to provoke Cap sending a spy is to completely ignore Baron Zemo and the Thunderbolts ENTIRE history. And frankly considering what Zemo did he really shouldn't have been trused so I doubt cap is losing too much sleep over that. It's not like the Avengers just decided to attack the T-Bolts while they were flying around doing NOTHING one day.
If you think Cap would attack an innocent person because the government threatened legal ramifications against him, then obviously we have a very different view of Captain America. He's had criminals on his team before. Would he attack other superheroes if the government threatened to deport Wanda and Pietro or put Hawkeye in prison? I would argue no we wouldn't. If you think Cap is that guy, then we can agree to disagree.
And when exactly did Cap need the governments approval or sactionts to make a new Avengers team to begin with. FIrstly, he's got champions status which means he can make a team any time he wants. Secondly, when do teams need the governments permission at all? Every other team seems to be able to do that without the governments permission or sanctions, so I don't see why the CSA would consider the Avengers a threat because they're operating that way.
As for your arguement about it being a matter of perspective... that's true. And that's why I'm not going as hard on the CSA as I am the T-Bolts. I genuinely think the CSA thinks that they are doing the righ thing. Coversely, I think the T-Bolts KNOW what they are doing is wrong, whick is why I place them in the cowardly immoral category. They're NOT doing this to serve their country, they're doing it to save their own butts.
Dark Soul # 7
10-27-2005, 12:14 AM
How exactly did the Avengers get their asses handed to them?
Ok, I´m mostly intrested in how Spider-man was defeated.
CyberCoyote
10-27-2005, 06:13 AM
Iron Man: Initial whuppin' (and he got up and they were VERY surprised) was squaring off with R-Man whom he was basically explaining to that he ALWAYS beats him when Atlas curbstomped the unwary IM :)
Spidey tried climbing around on Atlas, Atlas shrunk down throwing off his game, SpeedDemon had him occupied and the RMan bled off Spidey's irradiated powers (done before)
Poor Cap was pulled into the microverse with Photon and Sentry (Genis was basically keeping Sentry out of the fight), but the Genis/Sentry battle there was causing a LOT of damage to the terrain and cap almost got squished. Genis 'saved' him by porting him back to the fight..right into IM's repulsor blasts (cosmic awareness, don't go home without it!) Naturally they isolated Cap because they knew that no matter how well they planned the ambush Cap could counter it if given enough time.
Sentry had had enough and was going to do something very bad when Genis ported him to a port-a-potty somewhere just to escape retribution while adding insult to insult :)
Cage managed to return at the end of the battle and was perfectly willing to knock heads with the whole team solo but they didn't give him the chance. Damn he's a tough SOB.
Cage being one of the coolest Mo-Fo's in the Marvel Universe..I sure wish they'd relaunch PowerMan and IronFist and save him from NA where he can't have the center spotlight as much.
Spiderwoman beat the living snot out of Joystick.
I very much enjoyed the way Sentry was handled. I mean, the guy is kinda ambiguous and disgustingly over-powered but we got to see him using some control here..leaving his true levels as mysterious as the editorial reasons for ressurecting him :)
Dark Soul # 7
10-27-2005, 08:25 AM
Iron Man: Initial whuppin' (and he got up and they were VERY surprised) was squaring off with R-Man whom he was basically explaining to that he ALWAYS beats him when Atlas curbstomped the unwary IM :)
Spidey tried climbing around on Atlas, Atlas shrunk down throwing off his game, SpeedDemon had him occupied and the RMan bled off Spidey's irradiated powers (done before)
Poor Cap was pulled into the microverse with Photon and Sentry (Genis was basically keeping Sentry out of the fight), but the Genis/Sentry battle there was causing a LOT of damage to the terrain and cap almost got squished. Genis 'saved' him by porting him back to the fight..right into IM's repulsor blasts (cosmic awareness, don't go home without it!) Naturally they isolated Cap because they knew that no matter how well they planned the ambush Cap could counter it if given enough time.
Sentry had had enough and was going to do something very bad when Genis ported him to a port-a-potty somewhere just to escape retribution while adding insult to insult :)
Cage managed to return at the end of the battle and was perfectly willing to knock heads with the whole team solo but they didn't give him the chance. Damn he's a tough SOB.
Cage being one of the coolest Mo-Fo's in the Marvel Universe..I sure wish they'd relaunch PowerMan and IronFist and save him from NA where he can't have the center spotlight as much.
Spiderwoman beat the living snot out of Joystick.
I very much enjoyed the way Sentry was handled. I mean, the guy is kinda ambiguous and disgustingly over-powered but we got to see him using some control here..leaving his true levels as mysterious as the editorial reasons for ressurecting him :)Dammit. I wanted a slugfest that ended in a stalemate or something. Meh, you can´t get everything you want. At least the better team won.
tjarvis
10-27-2005, 09:13 AM
Yeah, but I wish the New Avengers would have at least gotten some good shots here. I don't even necessarily have a problem with the T-Bolts winning, but it kind of feels like Fabes just straight out jobbed the Avengers in this fight. It's not exactly the most powerful lineup in the world, but they should have been better represented than what they got.
Anthony
10-27-2005, 09:48 AM
Yeah, but I wish the New Avengers would have at least gotten some good shots here. I don't even necessarily have a problem with the T-Bolts winning, but it kind of feels like Fabes just straight out jobbed the Avengers in this fight. It's not exactly the most powerful lineup in the world, but they should have been better represented than what they got.
Yeah that's basically how I feel. The Thunderbolts did everything right, while the Avengers did nothing right. The Thunderbolts had counters for everything and the Avengers played directly into these counters. That and Speed Demon is apparently a whole lot faster now; fusing sand into glass as he runs. I mean the Thunderbolts were already a more powerful team than the Avengers, powering them up seemed like overkill to me.
Calybos
10-27-2005, 09:56 AM
Well, hearing that the new T-bolts (whom I like) trounced the New Avengers (shrug, don't read 'em) doesn't bother me a bit. Cap made a good showing and was dealt with as the major tactical threat--that's all that matters to me on that side of the field. The others can twist in the wind.
But I do agree that the T-bolts have once again been compromised by a bad decision. Of course! That's a central element of their tone! They face tough choices, and often choose wrong and have to face the consequences. (And anyone who reads comics should know, cooperating with the government is ALWAYS a bad decision.) They made the best of it--especially Songbird, who I like a lot--but ultimately they'll regret their action.
Hey, at least they didn't get sent against truly innocent people or a team deserving of greater respect. Remember: it's just the New Avengers, not the real Avengers. I'm hoping they get back to the real Avengers soon because I'd like to pick up the title again.
K'Nort
10-27-2005, 10:07 AM
I was just fine with the Avengers being beaten, so this was a fun issue.
And fighting some of the Marvel U's most powerful beings doesn't really qualify as "attacking innocent people" anyway. It's not like they were at risk of anything but embarassment.
Three issues in a row with a big reveal in the last panel is plenty. I mean, two was fun, but okay.
FabianNicieza
10-27-2005, 10:20 AM
And fighting some of the Marvel U's most powerful beings doesn't really qualify as "attacking innocent people" anyway. It's not like they were at risk of anything but embarassment.]
Thank you for stating that, since XPac's constant use of the term "innocent people" had worn thin on me. ;-)
[Three issues in a row with a big reveal in the last panel is plenty. I mean, two was fun, but okay.
The surprise reveal in this issue was NOT on the last panel. ;-)
Besides, "shocking'" reveals and cliffhangers have always been a staple of TBolts. If anything, we've been relatively tame in that regard during our 1st year... though maybe that will change for our 2nd year...
-- fabian
Dark Soul # 7
10-27-2005, 10:24 AM
Hey, at least they didn't get sent against truly innocent people or a team deserving of greater respect. Remember: it's just the New Avengers, not the real Avengers. I'm hoping they get back to the real Avengers soon because I'd like to pick up the title again.Spider-man and Captain America are innocent people. And while Bendis might writing crap in the New Avengers title that doesn´t mean the other writers shouldn´t respect the members abilities.
I was just fine with the Avengers being beaten, so this was a fun issue.
And fighting some of the Marvel U's most powerful beings doesn't really qualify as "attacking innocent people" anyway. It's not like they were at risk of anything but embarassment.
Three issues in a row with a big reveal in the last panel is plenty. I mean, two was fun, but okay.
Aside from Sentry, I don't think the Avengers qualify as Marves most powerful beings. And I don't agree that being powerful equates to being innocent either. Plus, despite the T-Bolts claimis to the contrary in the last issue there were civilians shown in the background. They were potentially endangering innocent people in addition to the Avengers.
From a writing standpoint I didn't mind the Avengers losing, because man for man the T-Bolts probably are more powerful aside from Sentry. And the T-bolts didn't do anything but teleport him away, so that was fine.
But I can't say I enjoyed the issue that much either. Read it but ended up not buying it. The Avengers were just embarrassed... I'm an Avengers fan to that bothers me a little bit. The T-Bolts ended up looking cowardly and immoral to me for agreeing to do this in the first place. And frankly my opinion of Pym and Carol dropped too, since they're showing more trust in Baron Zemo than the Avengers. I walked away form this losing respect for a lot of people I liked a whole lot more 2 months ago.
Spider-man and Captain America are innocent people. And while Bendis might writing crap in the New Avengers title that doesn´t mean the other writers shouldn´t respect the members abilities.
Honestly the only 2 Avengers I would describe as NOT innocent are Spider-WOman (who stayed at the Tower) and Wolverine (who wasn't even there).
But really, if the T-Bolts in their own minds justify their actions by thinking some of the Avengers have shady pasts, then they're throwing stones while living in glass houses.
I just wonder what the follow up to all this will end up being. I think in the LEAST the Avengers should stick the T-Bolts with the bill for the lost Quinjet. The Avengers only had 3 and they've lost like 2.
Phoney Bone
10-27-2005, 11:09 AM
There is nothing out of character at all about the way the Thunderbolts beat the New Avengers. New Avengers haven't been able to accomplish anything by themselves in their own title... why should it be any different in New Thunderbolts.
Now... if Dr, Strange, S.H.I.E.L.D., or Emma Frost had been there...
And as to the idea that the Thunderbolts were were acting cowardly or immoral...
It hasn't been that long ago that they were all villains (or in Genis' case, crazy)... even Songbird, Atlas and Gabe.
best Power Man character design (EDIT) in a long time!
There is nothing out of character at all about the way the Thunderbolts beat the New Avengers. New Avengers haven't been able to accomplish anything by themselves in their own title... why should it be any different in New Thunderbolts.
Now... if Dr, Strange, S.H.I.E.L.D., or Emma Frost had been there...
And as to the idea that the Thunderbolts were were acting cowardly or immoral...
It hasn't been that long ago that they were all villains (or in Genis' case, crazy)... even Songbird, Atlas and Gabe.
best Power Man characterization in a long time!
I agree, the New Avengers really haven't accomplished a lot. Storywise, I don't have a problem with them losing. Sentry aside, the T-Bolts are more powerful and they were prepared.
As for the T-Bolts... yeah, they're former criminals. ANd in this instance, they were showing those colors. So them acting cowardly and immoral isn't completely out of character... it's just a tad disappointing. I thought Melissa would be able to leader them in the RIGHT direction, rather than having them make an about face the first day on the job as leader. I never had high expectations of Abe as a leader... Melissa I actually thought was someone who could do the job right. Really, the good T-Bolt leader was Hawkeye.
Genis was an interesting case... he had nothing to lose from the government blackmailing him. He basically just went along with it because he wants to get in Mel's pants. And if Genis wasn't involved, there's NO WAY the T-Bolts could have pulled this off. None. Sentry could have eaten them alive while the rest of the Avengers stood at the side watching and eating popcorn.
TheSentryLives
10-27-2005, 01:29 PM
want to upgrade the power level? replace spiderwoman with gamora or mantis. Bring back thor and have him join in. Then add quasar. there now they are powered up enough.
Kid Kamikaze10
10-27-2005, 01:58 PM
Seriously, Fabes punked the New Avengers... Badly. I'm not saying let them win, but show some respect for the characters themselves. I just don't like how it was handled. It was a good issue, but it wasn't really fair for a new team to get embarrassed like that for no reason.
I even heard that it will get worse for the New Avengers later in this story arc.
Really, I want the New Avengers to redeem themselves, take on some real villains, and when their ready, get back at the New Thunderbolts.
If the original Avengers got embarrassed like this, everyone would get mad, but because it's the "Bendis Avengers" :rolleyes:, it's kicks and giggles for everyone. I hope the New Avengers fix themselves up without giving in to the fanboys and bringing back the old members.
protege
10-27-2005, 02:07 PM
want to upgrade the power level? replace spiderwoman with gamora or mantis. Bring back thor and have him join in. Then add quasar. there now they are powered up enough.
Who's gamora? the giant turtle?
Devourer of Words
10-27-2005, 02:22 PM
Who's gamora? the giant turtle?
Gamora is the adopted daughter of Thanos and a companion of Adam Warlock.
I wish I didn't have this image of the New Avengers being stepped on by a Giant turtle running through my mind now... :rolleyes:
want to upgrade the power level? replace spiderwoman with gamora or mantis. Bring back thor and have him join in. Then add quasar. there now they are powered up enough.
Realistically if you have Sentry, the Avengers are as powerful as they ever need to be though. There are so FEW threats that Sentry single handedly couldnt' take care off.
The T-Bolts were ONLY a threat because GEnis teleported him away. If not for that, Sentry could have eaten the T-Bolts alive like they were nothing.
Seriously, Fabes punked the New Avengers... Badly. I'm not saying let them win, but show some respect for the characters themselves. I just don't like how it was handled. It was a good issue, but it wasn't really fair for a new team to get embarrassed like that for no reason.
I even heard that it will get worse for the New Avengers later in this story arc.
Really, I want the New Avengers to redeem themselves, take on some real villains, and when their ready, get back at the New Thunderbolts.
If the original Avengers got embarrassed like this, everyone would get mad, but because it's the "Bendis Avengers" :rolleyes:, it's kicks and giggles for everyone. I hope the New Avengers fix themselves up without giving in to the fanboys and bringing back the old members.
It is kind of sad that the Avengers are looking like a bit of a joke these days.
In their own book, they're actually struggling with a bunch of ninjas. The Hand is a Daredevil level threat... no disrespect to Daredevil but the Avengers should be above that.
But yeah, the Avengers were embarrassed... it was outright stated that they were. I hope Fabian will bother trying to make them look good later on, but I'm not sure he cares to. It's not like it's his job to make the Avengers look good or anything... even though it would be nice.
But he sounded like he enjoyed the fact that his team trounced the Avengers... I've never seen a writer blatently advertise that this team would kick that teams butt weeks before a comic came out.
Lavteria
10-27-2005, 03:35 PM
HA, take that "New" Avengers!! Loved it.
Calybos
10-27-2005, 03:39 PM
This is rapidly turning into an Avengers thread....
But power level really isn't the issue. The T-Bolts launched a surprise attack and had time to plan. They made a bad choice (NEVER trust the government!) and they'll face consequences... that's in keeping with the T-Bolt theme.
And regardless of power level, the New Avengers (from what I've seen) really aren't much of a team, especially when caught off guard. I don't mean "not much of a team" in the sense that they suck... just that they don't particularly try to coordinate.
Sean Whitmore
10-27-2005, 03:47 PM
It's always tough to watch characters you like get beat by characters you like less, but the issue was nothing if not well-written.
The ambush was perfectly set up. Cage was off the board in seconds, and quite frankly, the Avengers were lucky that Cap and Spidey weren't dealt with the same way.
Spider-Man was at a huge disadvantage from the start, with nowhere to jump or swing. Sentry's invincibility was dealt with by just not letting him participate in the fight at all. And the T-Bolts' MVP, Genis, expertly took out Cap and Shellhead with his not-inconsiderable cosmic awareness and teleportation.
It doesn't speak volumes of Melissa and the others that they were willing to do this, but quite frankly, I haven't really liked anyone on the team in a while. Which is not to say I don't find them extremelty interesting and readable, I just dislike them. :)
And I'm glad to see that Carol and Hank haven't just suddenly turned into huge a-holes, turning on their peers for no reason. If they're taking instruction from Zemo, that means something very big and very wrong is on the horizon. :D
SEAN
tjarvis
10-27-2005, 03:53 PM
And the fact that Fabes seemed to enjoy it is what comes across as problematic. In no way am I being disrespectful of Fabian, I've liked most of his work. From X-Men, to his Spidey mini, to Blackbourne Chronicles, to Cable and Deadpool, I've been a fan of his writing style.
This kind of came across as cheap and desperate though. It's like a scream for attention by saying "Come see how kewl my team is as they beat the crap out of the much more popular Avengers! Notice me!"
It's cheaper than I'm used to.
TheSentryLives
10-27-2005, 06:01 PM
Realistically if you have Sentry, the Avengers are as powerful as they ever need to be though. There are so FEW threats that Sentry single handedly couldnt' take care off.
The T-Bolts were ONLY a threat because GEnis teleported him away. If not for that, Sentry could have eaten the T-Bolts alive like they were nothing.
Even the most powerful member on a team cannot do it alone when bigger challenges arise. I like Luke cage and spiderwoman but to be quite honest they are street level charactors and if the masters of evil show up or absorbing man,whomever. They would not last. SPiderman and wolverine are just fine but cage and spiderwoman gotta go. Gamora would be able to fight even highly powered threats,thor would be thor and quasar would be the outerspace type guy
pesmerga316
10-27-2005, 06:18 PM
I can see Sentry beating the snot out of Genis in the future, given to a diff writer like Jenkins or Bendis or whomever else, retribution is a bitch lol can't teleport away forever
ChildOfTheDarkholde
10-27-2005, 06:20 PM
Even the most powerful member on a team cannot do it alone when bigger challenges arise. I like Luke cage and spiderwoman but to be quite honest they are street level charactors and if the masters of evil show up or absorbing man,whomever. They would not last. SPiderman and wolverine are just fine but cage and spiderwoman gotta go.
Wait...if Spider-man can stay, why can't Spider-Woman?
Spider-man has fought and beaten cosmic-type threats like Firelord and beaten foes that outclass him strength-wise like Titania and others ,right?
Spider-woman has defeated Morgan Le Fey twice, by herself.
The same world-class, immortal sorceress Morgan Le fey that the entire Avengers roster had difficulty against in the past.
The same Morgan Le fey that has gone mano a mano with Doc Strange.
Beaten by the little red and yellow bug the witch thought she could squash easily.
Spider-Woman has defeated Mandroids, Silver Samurai, and Hammer And Anvil, two bruisers who have tussled with the Hulk. She also kicked the ass of Nekra, a mutant whose metabolism made her stronger and stronger the more hatred she felt.
Not saying that Jessica is the best character ever...just saying that Spidey may be Marvel's most popular hero, but just like Jessica he is also a street-level fighter.
Sure, they both have enhanced strength, speed, and reflexes, (among other individual powers like Jessica's venom blast, and peter's webs) but they both have the same chances against people like Nefaria, or Graviton or Ultron.
And besides, the entire team consists of "street-level" , superbly trained fighters, except for Tony and Sentry.
Dermie
10-27-2005, 08:26 PM
Seriously, Fabes punked the New Avengers... Badly. I'm not saying let them win, but show some respect for the characters themselves.
I thought Fabian showed a lot of respect for the characters. He treated them as serious threats, which was why the Thunderbolts had to plan their attack so carefully. Sentry was acknowledged as being too powerful for any of the T-Bolts to take down, so they kept him out of the fight. Iron Man was taken down by multiple T-Bolts working together. Spider-Woman beat Joystick into a bloody pulp!
Just because Fabian showed the New Avengers being outmaneuvered does not mean he didn't treat them with respect.
This is rapidly turning into an Avengers thread....
But power level really isn't the issue. The T-Bolts launched a surprise attack and had time to plan. They made a bad choice (NEVER trust the government!) and they'll face consequences... that's in keeping with the T-Bolt theme.
And regardless of power level, the New Avengers (from what I've seen) really aren't much of a team, especially when caught off guard. I don't mean "not much of a team" in the sense that they suck... just that they don't particularly try to coordinate.
If the Avengers aren't well coordinated, that perhaps is a fault of the writers though.
Captain America is a GOOD team leader that has practically written the book in terms of team coordination. Perhaps Bendis doesn't quite get that about the character, and how Cap has managed the Avengers team under past writers. Cap should be the best (though I suppose Melissa can throw out a differing view on that since she basically owend Cap in that department), but it's starting to come off as though Caps not written that way.
Which isn't to say thats necessarily an issue in this particular story. I'm just speaking in general terms about the team.
And the fact that Fabes seemed to enjoy it is what comes across as problematic. In no way am I being disrespectful of Fabian, I've liked most of his work. From X-Men, to his Spidey mini, to Blackbourne Chronicles, to Cable and Deadpool, I've been a fan of his writing style.
This kind of came across as cheap and desperate though. It's like a scream for attention by saying "Come see how kewl my team is as they beat the crap out of the much more popular Avengers! Notice me!"
It's cheaper than I'm used to.
Hmmm... I sort of thought it came off as kind of cheap too. I personally didn't appreciate the spoilers, or the tone in which the spoilers came across.
But that said, T-Bolts is a book that isn't setting the comic world on fire, at least in terms of sales. A bit of cheap heat like this probably is a good way to get some extra attention and maybe get a few extra people to check it out. So I don't blame him, if that was his intent.
Dermie
10-27-2005, 08:41 PM
The CSA asked the T-Bolts to do this, and the T-Bolts accepted. I'll agree they all get the blame rather than just Melisa, though Melisa gets the most responsibility since she's the leader.
Fair enough. But the CSA didn't just "ask" them to do this--they didn't give them a choice.
As for the Avengers unprovoked actions in the mini-series... to say the T-Bolts have done nothing to provoke Cap sending a spy is to completely ignore Baron Zemo and the Thunderbolts ENTIRE history.
And to say that the New Avengers are innocent and haven't provoked anything is to ignore their history--especially as it applies to Sentry, Wolverine and Spider-Woman.
And the Thunderbolts did not provoke anything in the miniseries--the Thunderbolts had already earned some respect and trust from the Avengers on past occassions. It was *Zemo* that they didn't trust, and Cap was willing to condemn all of the T-Bolts guilty by association....which is the same thing that just happened to the New Avengers.
If you think Cap would attack an innocent person because the government threatened legal ramifications against him, then obviously we have a very different view of Captain America.
I never said that. I said that the government has pressured him, and the Avengers, into stuff before.
And the fact is that Cap could never be pressured in the same way that the T-Bolts were pressured--he doesn't have a criminal record to be used against him, for example. So to compare the two sides doesn't work, because it isn't a fair or accurate comparison.
And when exactly did Cap need the governments approval or sactionts to make a new Avengers team to begin with. FIrstly, he's got champions status which means he can make a team any time he wants. Secondly, when do teams need the governments permission at all? Every other team seems to be able to do that without the governments permission or sanctions, so I don't see why the CSA would consider the Avengers a threat because they're operating that way.
Actually, the Fantastic Four have also had government ties. And other teams in the past that have operated without government sanction or approval have run into problems before, being treated as vigilante groups, being denied permission to do things, etc.
Just flying their quinjets around is technically illegal if they don't have proper authorization, for example.
As for your arguement about it being a matter of perspective... that's true. And that's why I'm not going as hard on the CSA as I am the T-Bolts. I genuinely think the CSA thinks that they are doing the righ thing. Coversely, I think the T-Bolts KNOW what they are doing is wrong, whick is why I place them in the cowardly immoral category. They're NOT doing this to serve their country, they're doing it to save their own butts.
Fair enough...but why can't it be BOTH? Why can't they be doing it for both reasons? And for some of them, I think they are also doing it because they LIKE the idea of fighting the Avengers and winning--with government approval, no less. Speed Demon, for example, seemed to be enjoying himself. I just don't think its quite as black and white as you make it out to be.
But to each their own. :)
So, even if you didn't care for the big clash...how did you feel about the other events in the book, like the stuff with Abe and Donnie?
Zero Hunter
10-27-2005, 08:46 PM
Everyone saying the Avengers were not treated with respect needs to relax. I think they were treated like they should have been. They are not a team in any real sence of the word. Cap and Iron Man are the only two that have any real teamwork experince with each other, and they were delt with pretty quickly. Spider Man, Spider Women, Cage, and Sentry are all mainly solo acts and to expect them to function as a real team is unrealistic at this point. Plus the T-Bolts went in with a very tight plan on who needed to deal with who and what needed to be done to weaken certain members. That right there is a very hard thing to beat.
To call this cheap heat is pretty lame. If this had been the other way around and Bendis had wrote this fight and had the Avengers gut stomp the T-Bolts would it have been cheap heat? It was a good story and looks to be leading into something good down the road, which is more than can really be said for the lumbering pace of New Avengers which couldn't even be bothered to crossover with the writers own big bloated crossover like nearly every other Marvel book.
Sean Whitmore
10-27-2005, 08:51 PM
And to say that the New Avengers are innocent and haven't provoked anything is to ignore their history--especially as it applies to Sentry, Wolverine and Spider-Woman.
That's the one argument I can't get behind. Even the "worst" of them, Wolverine, has never been convicted of anything. Does he deserve to be the target of heroes because he killed a Hellfire Club soldier ten years ago?
And their innocence or lack thereof is a moot point anyway, since none of the parties involved cared about that. The T-Bolts did it under duress. The CSA's official position for doing it was simply to prove they could. The CSA's ACTUAL reason for doing it has something to do with Zemo. The past crimes of the Avengers had nothing to do with anything.
SEAN
Dermie
10-27-2005, 08:51 PM
And the fact that Fabes seemed to enjoy it is what comes across as problematic. In no way am I being disrespectful of Fabian, I've liked most of his work. From X-Men, to his Spidey mini, to Blackbourne Chronicles, to Cable and Deadpool, I've been a fan of his writing style.
This kind of came across as cheap and desperate though. It's like a scream for attention by saying "Come see how kewl my team is as they beat the crap out of the much more popular Avengers! Notice me!"
It's cheaper than I'm used to.
I disagree. There is certainly an intent to grab some attention for the series here, but Avengers vs T-Bolts clashes are a tradition for the series--heck, they've even been taking place long before the T-Bolts even *became*
T-Bolts! ;) This was just a continuation of that tradition.
Now, if this were Thunderbolts vs X-Men, and kicking the X-Men's butts THEN I'd agree that it is just a cheap cry for attention. But any time you've got Thunderbolts with Avengers, that is something that has a long standing history for the series (and beyond the series, into the T-Bolts' careers as villains), and its something the readers expect every so often.
Dermie
10-27-2005, 09:11 PM
That's the one argument I can't get behind. Even the "worst" of them, Wolverine, has never been convicted of anything. Does he deserve to be the target of heroes because he killed a Hellfire Club soldier ten years ago?
I would be thinking more about his killing spree as a Hydra assassin. Yes, that was under the influence of mind-control...but that doesn't eliminate people's concerns. Given the number of times Logan's mind has been tampered with, who knows what hidden programming may still be in there to go off on a moment's notice? And it isn't as if Logan doesn't have a history of berseker rages and violent behaviour--sometimes even directed at his own teammates--even when he is in his right mind. If I were evaluating Wolverine, I'd certainly consider him a potential security risk.
Then we've got Sentry, who is proven to be mentally unstable, extremely powerful, and who has tampered with the minds of everyone on Earth. What possible reason does the CSA have to *not* consider him a risk?
Spider-Woman is a former Hydra agent, and is currently a member of SHIELD, which has its own corruption issues. So she isn't entirely trustworthy either.
Iron Man? If the CSA is remembering his "Armor Wars", then they know he is a potential loose cannon who is not afraid of turning against his teammates and committing illegal attacks on innocent people and government property when he feels it is justified.
And their innocence or lack thereof is a moot point anyway, since none of the parties involved cared about that. The T-Bolts did it under duress. The CSA's official position for doing it was simply to prove they could.
Because they considered them to be potential threats. That was explained explicitly last issue, in Gyrich's official report and in the discussions between him, Carol and Dallas.
The CSA's ACTUAL reason for doing it has something to do with Zemo. The past crimes of the Avengers had nothing to do with anything.
Just because Zemo is involved doesn't mean that the Avengers' backgrounds don't concern the CSA. Being worried about that stuff is their job, and there are valid reasons to be concerned about some of their members.
Also, as part of Zemo's plan, the CSA put bugs in the headquarters of the Avengers, the Thunderbolts and the Fantastic Four. But only ONE of those teams got attacked--so I don't think we can dismiss the CSA's concerns against the Avengers as just an act. If that were the case, they could have bugged Stark Tower the same way they did the Baxter Building--just send Hank Pym (or Carol) over for a visit with old friends.
Fair enough. But the CSA didn't just "ask" them to do this--they didn't give them a choice.
And to say that the New Avengers are innocent and haven't provoked anything is to ignore their history--especially as it applies to Sentry, Wolverine and Spider-Woman.
And the Thunderbolts did not provoke anything in the miniseries--the Thunderbolts had already earned some respect and trust from the Avengers on past occassions. It was *Zemo* that they didn't trust, and Cap was willing to condemn all of the T-Bolts guilty by association....which is the same thing that just happened to the New Avengers.
I never said that. I said that the government has pressured him, and the Avengers, into stuff before.
And the fact is that Cap could never be pressured in the same way that the T-Bolts were pressured--he doesn't have a criminal record to be used against him, for example. So to compare the two sides doesn't work, because it isn't a fair or accurate comparison.
Actually, the Fantastic Four have also had government ties. And other teams in the past that have operated without government sanction or approval have run into problems before, being treated as vigilante groups, being denied permission to do things, etc.
Just flying their quinjets around is technically illegal if they don't have proper authorization, for example.
Fair enough...but why can't it be BOTH? Why can't they be doing it for both reasons? And for some of them, I think they are also doing it because they LIKE the idea of fighting the Avengers and winning--with government approval, no less. Speed Demon, for example, seemed to be enjoying himself. I just don't think its quite as black and white as you make it out to be.
But to each their own. :)
So, even if you didn't care for the big clash...how did you feel about the other events in the book, like the stuff with Abe and Donnie?
The T-Bolts had a choice. They could have refused and dealt with the consequences of their refusal. It's not an easy choice, but it's nonetheless a choice. There are plenty of comic book heroes that would have refused, at least in my opinion. But then, I suppose that's why we don't label the T-Bolts heroes. I believe the term Fabian used was Wannabes or something to that effect.
That's the real difference here... it's not that Cap doesn't have a criminal record while Songbird does... it's that Cap is a hero and Songbird isn't. She tries to be at times, but she's not doing a very good job of it in the last 2 issues.
And as far as the Avengers being innocent... I think you're ignoring the fact that the T-Bolts didn't just attack Sentry, Wolverine, and Spider WOman. They attacked Cap, Spidey, Cage, and Iron Man. I'd argue guys like Spidey are the PINNACLE of what heroes in the Marvel universe should be... they don't deserve this. Cage and Iron Man aren't saints but I would argue they don't deserve this either. When you argue the Avengers aren't innocent, you're ignoring quite a few people that are on the team and NOT deserving of this in the slightest.
As for Cap condemning the T-Bolts in the mini series... yeah, there was some degree of guilt by association. But that's fair. The T-Bolts chose to have Zemo lead them, and they went along and helped him with their plan. Yes, the one he really trust is Zemo. But if they're helping him, then obviously they need to be stopped too.
And I certainly didn't get any indication from the dialogue or the characters reactions that they genuinely felt they were doing the right thing, or deserving some greater good by attacking the Avengers. If I honestly thought they felt that way, I'd respect their actions a bit more even if I disagreed with them.
Some may have enjoyed it... but I wouldn't exactly considering attacking people for fun as terribly noble either.
As for how I feel about the other stuff... I'm iffy about the CSA stuff because it's coming off like Hank and Carol trust Baron Zemo more than Cap. I don't know the whole story there so I can't make any judgements, but it doesn't feel right to me. But hey, it's kinda interesting. I guess that's the point.
Not sure how I feel about Abe and Donnie, it's at least cool to see old school T-Bolters around and in the mix. So that's all good.
To call this cheap heat is pretty lame. If this had been the other way around and Bendis had wrote this fight and had the Avengers gut stomp the T-Bolts would it have been cheap heat? It was a good story and looks to be leading into something good down the road, which is more than can really be said for the lumbering pace of New Avengers which couldn't even be bothered to crossover with the writers own big bloated crossover like nearly every other Marvel book.
If Bendis publically stated weeks before the comic was published that the NA would kick the T-Bolts butts, then yeah I'd call that cheap heat too.
The cheap part isn't the T-Bolts beating the Avengers. The cheap part is the writer publically saying that's what would happen before the comic comes out. The tone in which it was said was pretty strong... I'm not sure it's fair to say he was gloating over it, but it kind of came off that way.
Dermie
10-27-2005, 09:41 PM
The T-Bolts had a choice. They could have refused and dealt with the consequences of their refusal. It's not an easy choice, but it's nonetheless a choice.
Fair enough. But then, as you said, there are consequences for that choice. As you have focused on, there are unpleasant consequences for the T-Bolts that they would like to avoid.
But there is also the question--where will the T-Bolts do the most good? What are the consequences to public safety if the T-Bolts go to jail, and aren't there when needed? And would the T-Bolts just quietly let themselves be arrested? Or would this turn some of them back to crime--which raises a whole new set of consequences.
That's the real difference here... it's not that Cap doesn't have a criminal record while Songbird does... it's that Cap is a hero and Songbird isn't. She tries to be at times, but she's not doing a very good job of it in the last 2 issues.
I'd argue that Songbird IS a hero, moreso than any other T-Bolt (aside from Jolt, who was never a villain in the first place). Just because she may slip up from time to time doesn't make her any less of a hero--Captain America has made his own slips where he has failed to live up to his heroic standards.
And as far as the Avengers being innocent... I think you're ignoring the fact that the T-Bolts didn't just attack Sentry, Wolverine, and Spider WOman. They attacked Cap, Spidey, Cage, and Iron Man.
I'm not ignoring that at all--it goes back to what I said about guilty by association. The Avengers have chosen to include several potential security risk in their roster--that makes ALL OF THEM potential threats, because they chose to accept those individuals as part of their group.
(also Iron Man is a potential risk all by himself, as he proved with his Armor Wars).
When you argue the Avengers aren't innocent, you're ignoring quite a few people that are on the team and NOT deserving of this in the slightest.
Which is the same thing the Avengers did to the T-Bolts before. Vantage was an innocent, but she was considered a threat due to her association with Zemo. Songbird had proven herself and earned a pardon--but she was suspected too.
Is it fair? Maybe not--but it is the consequence you face when you associate yourself with certain people. It applies to BOTH teams.
Some may have enjoyed it... but I wouldn't exactly considering attacking people for fun as terribly noble either.
And I certainly never meant to imply that it was. I was simply pointing out that the motives involved are not simply the cut-and-dried "protect my own butt" motive. :)
As for how I feel about the other stuff... I'm iffy about the CSA stuff because it's coming off like Hank and Carol trust Baron Zemo more than Cap. I don't know the whole story there so I can't make any judgements, but it doesn't feel right to me. But hey, it's kinda interesting. I guess that's the point.
Well, I wouldn't say either of them trust Zemo more than Cap--Carol, Hank and Gyrich all make it pretty clear that they don't really trust Zemo and that they are uncomfortable about this. But for whatever reason, which we haven't been informed of yet, they feel that this plan is worth the risk.
Not sure how I feel about Abe and Donnie, it's at least cool to see old school T-Bolters around and in the mix. So that's all good.
Yeah, its fun to be seeing more of the old familiar faces. :)
Fair enough. But then, as you said, there are consequences for that choice. As you have focused on, there are unpleasant consequences for the T-Bolts that they would like to avoid.
But there is also the question--where will the T-Bolts do the most good? What are the consequences to public safety if the T-Bolts go to jail, and aren't there when needed? And would the T-Bolts just quietly let themselves be arrested? Or would this turn some of them back to crime--which raises a whole new set of consequences.
I'd argue that Songbird IS a hero, moreso than any other T-Bolt (aside from Jolt, who was never a villain in the first place). Just because she may slip up from time to time doesn't make her any less of a hero--Captain America has made his own slips where he has failed to live up to his heroic standards.
I'm not ignoring that at all--it goes back to what I said about guilty by association. The Avengers have chosen to include several potential security risk in their roster--that makes ALL OF THEM potential threats, because they chose to accept those individuals as part of their group.
(also Iron Man is a potential risk all by himself, as he proved with his Armor Wars).
Which is the same thing the Avengers did to the T-Bolts before. Vantage was an innocent, but she was considered a threat due to her association with Zemo. Songbird had proven herself and earned a pardon--but she was suspected too.
Is it fair? Maybe not--but it is the consequence you face when you associate yourself with certain people. It applies to BOTH teams.
And I certainly never meant to imply that it was. I was simply pointing out that the motives involved are not simply the cut-and-dried "protect my own butt" motive. :)
Well, I wouldn't say either of them trust Zemo more than Cap--Carol, Hank and Gyrich all make it pretty clear that they don't really trust Zemo and that they are uncomfortable about this. But for whatever reason, which we haven't been informed of yet, they feel that this plan is worth the risk.
Yeah, its fun to be seeing more of the old familiar faces. :)
Well, my honest opinion about the T-Bolts is that if they are criminals that didn't serve their time they SHOULD be in jail. Even if they potentially do more good on the outside, they shouldn't be considered outside due process simply because they're acting like good guys now. And that applies to plenty of other heroes too. But the point there is I can't feel too much sympathy for the T-Bolts if someone threatens them with the punishment that they really deserve anyways.
As for your guilt by association comparrison between the Avengers and the T-Bolts... the difference is the T-Bolts actively HELPED Zemo perform his crimes. The Avengers had no part in the things Wolverine did. The T-Bolts deserve to be considered guilty by association, but the Avengers don't. Because the Avengers didn't have anything to do with it... obviously the T-Bolts can't say the same with Zemo.
And the fact of the matter is YES perception is often harder on the T-Bolts because they are criminals who in a fair world should be sitting in a jail cell right about now. It's a gift that they're not, and when the mistreat that by doing things like helpig Zemo with his gazilliont hairbrained scheme or attacking other heroes without real just cause, they spit on that gift of freedom that they're blessed with. They have to constantly PROVE the deserve their freedon and when they do things against that, they deserve whatever they get for it. Is that fair to them... I would argue yes, that's the consequence for them choosing to be criminals in the first place.
TheSentryLives
10-27-2005, 11:32 PM
Wait...if Spider-man can stay, why can't Spider-Woman?
Spider-man has fought and beaten cosmic-type threats like Firelord and beaten foes that outclass him strength-wise like Titania and others ,right?
Spider-woman has defeated Morgan Le Fey twice, by herself.
The same world-class, immortal sorceress Morgan Le fey that the entire Avengers roster had difficulty against in the past.
The same Morgan Le fey that has gone mano a mano with Doc Strange.
Beaten by the little red and yellow bug the witch thought she could squash easily.
Spider-Woman has defeated Mandroids, Silver Samurai, and Hammer And Anvil, two bruisers who have tussled with the Hulk. She also kicked the ass of Nekra, a mutant whose metabolism made her stronger and stronger the more hatred she felt.
Not saying that Jessica is the best character ever...just saying that Spidey may be Marvel's most popular hero, but just like Jessica he is also a street-level fighter.
Sure, they both have enhanced strength, speed, and reflexes, (among other individual powers like Jessica's venom blast, and peter's webs) but they both have the same chances against people like Nefaria, or Graviton or Ultron.
And besides, the entire team consists of "street-level" , superbly trained fighters, except for Tony and Sentry.
Because having 2 of the same serves no purpose. wolverines powers are different than spiderman so they are fine as a team,captain america team leader,top fighter type with brilliant tactician skills,iron man...money,superior tech and armor,sentry....the all around powerhouse,spiderwoman,similar powers to spiderman but she doesn't offer enough that is different than what spiderman can do,shield training,knowledge of hydra.nothing that captain himself can't duplicate in terms of knowledge...hell wolverine alone knows more about those groups. Luke Cage guy has unbreakable skin(so far) and super strength that is it.
Having daredevil on the team would be even dumber...he offers supersenses and fighting skill. Something wolverine already has both of. A team needs to be complimented on each side. They don't offer that to each other. New Thunderbolts does........If say Namor went on a rampage against the new avengers for whatever reason......If Sentry is not around those guys would put up a good fight but they really have no chance.
Sean Whitmore
10-27-2005, 11:44 PM
Because having 2 of the same serves no purpose.
Spider-Woman can fly and shoot laser beams, two things Spidey can't do.
The only power they share that I can see is super strength, and why is it bad to have multiple people on the team who can hit really hard?
SEAN
Because having 2 of the same serves no purpose. wolverines powers are different than spiderman so they are fine as a team,captain america team leader,top fighter type with brilliant tactician skills,iron man...money,superior tech and armor,sentry....the all around powerhouse,spiderwoman,similar powers to spiderman but she doesn't offer enough that is different than what spiderman can do,shield training,knowledge of hydra.nothing that captain himself can't duplicate in terms of knowledge...hell wolverine alone knows more about those groups. Luke Cage guy has unbreakable skin(so far) and super strength that is it.
Having daredevil on the team would be even dumber...he offers supersenses and fighting skill. Something wolverine already has both of. A team needs to be complimented on each side. They don't offer that to each other. New Thunderbolts does........If say Namor went on a rampage against the new avengers for whatever reason......If Sentry is not around those guys would put up a good fight but they really have no chance.
Though this is one of the weaker Avenger teams, theyre not THAT weak. Iron Man well written should be able to own Namor. Cage is KOed Iron Clad and Orka, so he should at least be able to hold his own against Namor. And Wolverine in Enemy of the State actually was beating Namor.
I do sort of agree that the NA are lacking in versatility. But I'd sooner ditch Wolverine than Spider-Woman or Cage. Spider Womans powers are actually nothing like Spidermans... she flies and shoots lasers.
Sean Whitmore
10-27-2005, 11:57 PM
Though this is one of the weaker Avenger teams, theyre not THAT weak. Iron Man well written should be able to own Namor. Cage is KOed Iron Clad and Orka, so he should at least be able to hold his own against Namor. And Wolverine in Enemy of the State actually was beating Namor.
I'd believe that Iron Man could defeat Namor, but "owning" is way too generous a term. :)
And Cage doesn't stand a snowball's chance in Hell...Namor is a guy who shrugs off punches from the Hulk.
I didn't read the Invaders when Wolvie and Namor fought, so I can't comment. I could see Wolvie inflicting some major damage if his claws could pierce Namor's skin.
SEAN
I'd believe that Iron Man could defeat Namor, but "owning" is way too generous a term. :)
And Cage doesn't stand a snowball's chance in Hell...Namor is a guy who shrugs off punches from the Hulk.
I didn't read the Invaders when Wolvie and Namor fought, so I can't comment. I could see Wolvie inflicting some major damage if his claws could pierce Namor's skin.
SEAN
If Iron Man was well written, I honestly think he can own even someone as powerful as Namor. Here's a guy that's basically wearing a Batman utility belt. Yeah, he can stand here and trade blows with a Namor. But if he were to fight smart he'd just do things like shoot sonics which even someone like Namor would have no defense against.
And yes, Namor has taken blows from Hulk. But so has Iron Clad and Orka, and Cage has beaten them. Cage probalby isn't as strong as Namor... but like I said, he should be able to hold his own. He's done that much against moderately high end Marvel bricks. I think a LOT of people forget Cages stint in the second Heroes for Hire series... he's a lot more powerful than people think he is.
thik_3rd
10-28-2005, 12:58 AM
the best part was blizzard getting recruited by mach and the fixer.
*i haven't read much of this thread*
i assumed that mach and fixer were working with zemo...but is it possible we could see three "teams" now? songbird's bolts initially working for the government (but i'm betting they rebel), mach's bolts with fixer, blizzard and whoever else they can recruit (old members or new), and the zemo/pym/warbird/gyrich government "team"?
great issue. this series was always good at least since the relaunch, but this just kicked up a few notches. it's a book i'm really waiting to see what happens next with. it's doing a good job of juggling a lot of plots and subplots like the first run did, but without sacrificing character driven moments.
10/10
Dark Soul # 7
10-28-2005, 01:52 AM
I wonder if Bendis will ever get revenge and have the New Avengers beat up the Thunderbolts.
marshal99
10-28-2005, 05:57 AM
It figures that Genis is possibly the only hero that can handle Sentry.
Next issue , the squadron sinister ? Interesting considering that the evil Hyperion is dead , we saw a new Dr. spectrum a few issues back and Speed Demon is working for the thunderbolts now and there were only 3 members in that group.
Calybos
10-28-2005, 06:00 AM
I wouldn't bother trying to justify the Thunderbolts' decision to attack the New Avengers, or debating whether the N.A. are "innocents" or not.... this is clearly another classic Thunderbolts Bad Decision That Comes Back to Haunt Them(tm). (Remember: They cooperated with the government, and that's ALWAYS a bad choice.)
Bad choices are a major part of what this team and title are ABOUT. They're not SUPPOSED to be making the right choices--they're supposed to be trying, and often getting it wrong.
As for crossover sales, I honestly never considered that they were trying to increase Thunderbolts readership: I figured it was the other way around, hoping T-Bolt readers would give N.A. a chance. (Didn't work with me; I'll wait till the real Avengers come around again.)
boolean
10-28-2005, 07:02 AM
One interesting question is, will Blizzard's costume look different?
Fixer might just give it a tune-up, so it works better, or he might substntially re-design it. Knowing Ebersol's ego, I'd bet on the latter.
It would also solve the problem of Photon's new costume being too similar to Blizzard's.
Dermie
10-28-2005, 08:10 AM
It figures that Genis is possibly the only hero that can handle Sentry.
Next issue , the squadron sinister ? Interesting considering that the evil Hyperion is dead , we saw a new Dr. spectrum a few issues back and Speed Demon is working for the thunderbolts now and there were only 3 members in that group.
Actually there were 4--you've forgotten Nighthawk.
I wonder if Bendis will ever get revenge and have the New Avengers beat up the Thunderbolts.
I doubt Bendis would bother. He's never seemed all that interested in team smackdowns. I would imagine if the T-Bolt/Avenger legacy is to continue it'll have to be in the pages of Thunderbolts (which is a pretty bad sign for the Avengers I imagine).
I wouldn't bother trying to justify the Thunderbolts' decision to attack the New Avengers, or debating whether the N.A. are "innocents" or not.... this is clearly another classic Thunderbolts Bad Decision That Comes Back to Haunt Them(tm). (Remember: They cooperated with the government, and that's ALWAYS a bad choice.)
Bad choices are a major part of what this team and title are ABOUT. They're not SUPPOSED to be making the right choices--they're supposed to be trying, and often getting it wrong.
As for crossover sales, I honestly never considered that they were trying to increase Thunderbolts readership: I figured it was the other way around, hoping T-Bolt readers would give N.A. a chance. (Didn't work with me; I'll wait till the real Avengers come around again.)
If you consider how NA is doing and how T-Bolts is doing, I kind of doubt that's the case. Heck, putting aside the Avengers own popularity it's a book that stars Spider-Man AND Wolverine... I doubt Marvel really feels NA needs T-Bolt readers to make it a sucess (not that they're not welcome of course).
Course, on the flip side I'm not sure how many Avenger fans would necessarily fall in love with the book based on this particular story arc. For some I'm sure they will find it interesting... for others, I'll honestly bet it was a bit of a turn off.
Cayman
10-28-2005, 10:01 AM
If you consider how NA is doing and how T-Bolts is doing, I kind of doubt that's the case. Heck, putting aside the Avengers own popularity it's a book that stars Spider-Man AND Wolverine... I doubt Marvel really feels NA needs T-Bolt readers to make it a sucess (not that they're not welcome of course).
Course, on the flip side I'm not sure how many Avenger fans would necessarily fall in love with the book based on this particular story arc. For some I'm sure they will find it interesting... for others, I'll honestly bet it was a bit of a turn off.
It's definitely turning me off the way they are trashing Carol Danvers's character.
Cay
It's definitely turning me off the way they are trashing Carol Danvers's character.
Cay
Yeah, I am really starting to lose some respect for both Carol and Hank. I don't know exactly what is going on here... but to see them side with Zemo against Captain American just doesn't feel right or true to me.
The irony is on a LOT of Avenger boards Carol is one of those characters that a lot of Avenger fans want returning to the team. But with what's going down in T-Bolts, I have doubts that would really be feasible anymore.
Course, it is kinda interesting that the two former Avengers conspiring against them are the two Avengers that were expelled. All we need is Dr. Druid and the Swordsman and you'll have a complete set of expelled Avengers on Team Zemo.
Grimm
10-28-2005, 10:50 AM
I enjoyed the issue, I cannot really understand how people can say Nicieza made the New Avengers look bad?
T-bolts had prep.
NA were holding back, alot.
Sentry, Cap and Iron Man all had one hell of alot of dialogue in which they were trying to talk the T-Bolts down.
I could actually hear people's teeth grinding together as I read their posts, oh no the classic Avengers wouldn't have been beaten by a team with prep. Bollocks. Every super team has been beaten with prep, FF, Avengers, X-Men you name it. Don't act like this is a first.
Please can someone tell me, which New Avenger came off looking bad on the back of this fight?
I enjoyed the issue, I cannot really understand how people can say Nicieza made the New Avengers look bad?
T-bolts had prep.
NA were holding back, alot.
Sentry, Cap and Iron Man all had one hell of alot of dialogue in which they were trying to talk the T-Bolts down.
I could actually hear people's teeth grinding together as I read their posts, oh no the classic Avengers wouldn't have been beaten by a team with prep. Bollocks. Every super team has been beaten with prep, FF, Avengers, X-Men you name it. Don't act like this is a first.
Please can someone tell me, which New Avenger came off looking bad on the back of this fight?
THough I do agree that the T-Bolts winning this fight was very reasonable... they were embarrassed. The T-Bolts outright said that they embarrassed the Avengers, and could do it again anytime they wanted. They were just embarrassed in a very believable way, that's all. Which isn't completely fun to swallow if you like the Avengers... but it's fair.
And the fact that the writer of the book would advertise the Avengers getting their butts kicked weeks before the issues even came out is sort of a jab against the Avengers too. That also perhaps rubbed SOME Avengers fans the wrong. It almost came off as gloating about it if you ever hear some of the comments Fabian made.
I enjoyed the issue, I cannot really understand how people can say Nicieza made the New Avengers look bad?
T-bolts had prep.
NA were holding back, alot.
Sentry, Cap and Iron Man all had one hell of alot of dialogue in which they were trying to talk the T-Bolts down.
I could actually hear people's teeth grinding together as I read their posts, oh no the classic Avengers wouldn't have been beaten by a team with prep. Bollocks. Every super team has been beaten with prep, FF, Avengers, X-Men you name it. Don't act like this is a first.
Please can someone tell me, which New Avenger came off looking bad on the back of this fight?
It's not so much individually. (Spidey was out of his element, nothing to grab or swing from, Cap was having to improvise with assets he's not used to having against a more prepared, cohesive unit, Cage wasn't beaten, Iron Man or Sentry weren't really either and Spider-Woman appeared to win her fight) But they came off looking pretty sorry as a team.
Now I'm assuming the idea was that the ambush and chosen battlefield aspects were intended to be the deciding factors, but there was none of the teamwork you'd expect.
THough I do agree that the T-Bolts winning this fight was very reasonable... they were embarrassed. The T-Bolts outright said that they embarrassed the Avengers, and could do it again anytime they wanted. They were just embarrassed in a very believable way, that's all. Which isn't completely fun to swallow if you like the Avengers... but it's fair.
And the fact that the writer of the book would advertise the Avengers getting their butts kicked weeks before the issues even came out is sort of a jab against the Avengers too. That also perhaps rubbed SOME Avengers fans the wrong. It almost came off as gloating about it if you ever hear some of the comments Fabian made.
I kind of get the feeling that Melissa was kind of bluffing. If Cap had the preperation time, and chose the time and place, it would turn out more favorably for the Avengers.
It's not so much individually. (Spidey was out of his element, nothing to grab or swing from, Cap was having to improvise with assets he's not used to having against a more prepared, cohesive unit, Cage wasn't beaten, Iron Man or Sentry weren't really either and Spider-Woman appeared to win her fight) But they came off looking pretty sorry as a team.
Now I'm assuming the idea was that the ambush and chosen battlefield aspects were intended to be the deciding factors, but there was none of the teamwork you'd expect.
Yeah... I think that's what some writers are missing. Cap should be the BEST team leader in all of comics. Writers in the dialogue will SAY how good Cap is, but they never show it.
A well written Captain American should have his team well trained because that's what Cap does. You can argue justifiably that it's a new team, but in events like Secret Wars or JLA/Avengers he can take people that he's NEVER worked with in the heat of battle and mold them into a fighting unit. Or at least Cap used to be able to do that. Not just here but in the NA books... poor Cap really is losing a lot of his street cred as the best leader in comics. Writers continue to say he is, they just don't bother actually showing that he is in any given situation.
I kind of get the feeling that Melissa was kind of bluffing. If Cap had the preperation time, and chose the time and place, it would turn out more favorably for the Avengers.
It'll be interesting to see if that ever is proven ( I still say on a given day Sentry by himself can own the T-Bolts). I doubt it will. As I said in a different post I don't think Bendis would bother with team smackdowns... just doesn't seem his thing. And I don't see Fabian having the Avengers beat the T-Bolts in their own book. I can see draws, but not wins.
I wonder if the Avengers will even bother after the beatdown they just got, or if Fabian is moving on after this with no response from the Avengers.
Grimm
10-28-2005, 11:15 AM
THough I do agree that the T-Bolts winning this fight was very reasonable... they were embarrassed. The T-Bolts outright said that they embarrassed the Avengers, and could do it again anytime they wanted. They were just embarrassed in a very believable way, that's all. Which isn't completely fun to swallow if you like the Avengers... but it's fair.
And the fact that the writer of the book would advertise the Avengers getting their butts kicked weeks before the issues even came out is sort of a jab against the Avengers too. That also perhaps rubbed SOME Avengers fans the wrong. It almost came off as gloating about it if you ever hear some of the comments Fabian made.
I didn't hear any comments that Fabian made beforehand, and I would hope if he did make the comments it was more tongue in cheek than anything.
I can't really agree that the NA got embarrased, they mostly spent their time trying to talk the T-Bolts down rather than fighting. Though I can see why Genis would think they were. I think we can all agree though, next time the kid gloves are off.
I don't honestly think any member of the NA can hang their head in shame after this display.
marshal99
10-28-2005, 11:22 AM
The NA gets beat down a lot without Sentry , the wrecker alone beat down Wolverine , Cage , Spider-man & Spider-woman (though they did gang up and beat him later but not before the wrecker kick their ass) , Ethan the super skrull was wiping the floor with NA until Aunt May stepped in and calm him down. Hydra's fake avengers were holding their own against the NA as well.
Grimm
10-28-2005, 11:22 AM
It's not so much individually. (Spidey was out of his element, nothing to grab or swing from, Cap was having to improvise with assets he's not used to having against a more prepared, cohesive unit, Cage wasn't beaten, Iron Man or Sentry weren't really either and Spider-Woman appeared to win her fight) But they came off looking pretty sorry as a team.
Now I'm assuming the idea was that the ambush and chosen battlefield aspects were intended to be the deciding factors, but there was none of the teamwork you'd expect.
Actually, I thought the deciding factor was that NA were holding back alot. Which in particular took Cap out of the fight, he spent too long trying to talk Melissa down. He won't make that mistake twice though.
I didn't hear any comments that Fabian made beforehand, and I would hope if he did make the comments it was more tongue in cheek than anything.
I can't really agree that the NA got embarrased, they mostly spent their time trying to talk the T-Bolts down rather than fighting. Though I can see why Genis would think they were. I think we can all agree though, next time the kid gloves are off.
I don't honestly think any member of the NA can hang their head in shame after this display.
Fabians comments may have been tongue and cheek, but obviously they were also statements of facts. He said the T-Bolts would kick the Avengers butts, and obviously they did. No mincing words there.
As for whether or not the T-Bolts embarrassed the Avengers... Songbird seemed to think they did. None of the guys unconscious on the ground were in a position to give any sort of rebuttal.
Will the kid gloves be off next time? We'll see... I'm not sure there will be a next time. Have they advertised any sort of round 2 between the teams, or will the Avengers just sleek back to Avengers tower with their tails between their legs.
Actually, I thought the deciding factor was that NA were holding back alot. Which in particular took Cap out of the fight, he spent too long trying to talk Melissa down. He won't make that mistake twice though.
The real deciding factor was Genis removing Sentry from the fight. If Sentry was there, I honestly doubt any of the T-Bolts could have beaten him. HOnestly, I believe in a straight fight Sentry could tackle both teams combined.
Just speculating... but if the Avengers were to fight the T-Bolts again, whether or not they would win or lose would depend entirely on Sentry KOing Genis before he can teleport him away. If Sentry is removed from the fight, Genis can beat or send away any of the Avengers. If Sentry can KO genis quickly enough the T-Bolts are done.
The entire fight really revolves around those 2 characters... no disrespect to the other characters, but they're so far ahead of anyone else in the fight that the rest are secondary.
Grimm
10-28-2005, 11:38 AM
The real deciding factor was Genis removing Sentry from the fight. If Sentry was there, I honestly doubt any of the T-Bolts could have beaten him. HOnestly, I believe in a straight fight Sentry could tackle both teams combined.
Just speculating... but if the Avengers were to fight the T-Bolts again, whether or not they would win or lose would depend entirely on Sentry KOing Genis before he can teleport him away. If Sentry is removed from the fight, Genis can beat or send away any of the Avengers. If Sentry can KO genis quickly enough the T-Bolts are done.
The entire fight really revolves around those 2 characters... no disrespect to the other characters, but they're so far ahead of anyone else in the fight that the rest are secondary.
Heh, Sentry was holding back too you know. Yep I totally agree that Sentry can solo both teams very easily.
Grimm
10-28-2005, 11:46 AM
Fabians comments may have been tongue and cheek, but obviously they were also statements of facts. He said the T-Bolts would kick the Avengers butts, and obviously they did. No mincing words there.
As for whether or not the T-Bolts embarrassed the Avengers... Songbird seemed to think they did. None of the guys unconscious on the ground were in a position to give any sort of rebuttal.
Will the kid gloves be off next time? We'll see... I'm not sure there will be a next time. Have they advertised any sort of round 2 between the teams, or will the Avengers just sleek back to Avengers tower with their tails between their legs.
Well, if you think NA really did get embarrased I ain't gonna argue :) I just don't agree.
Yeah, Iron Man worked out that the government was behind the whole thing, so I am pretty sure another fight is in the works. I was actually wondering if Cap, Spidey and Iron Man stayed down because of that, Tony having just worked it out seconds before the blast. Althought Sentry *did* feel the blast, so it probably did knock them out. But maybe not ;)
Well, if you think NA really did get embarrased I ain't gonna argue :) I just don't agree.
Yeah, Iron Man worked out that the government was behind the whole thing, so I am pretty sure another fight is in the works. I was actually wondering if Cap, Spidey and Iron Man stayed down because of that, Tony having just worked it out seconds before the blast. Althought Sentry *did* feel the blast, so it probably did knock them out. But maybe not ;)
Well, Songbird had the intent of embarrasing the Avengers. She basically said so right there in black and white print. I suppose we can agree to disagree about whether or not Songbird suceeded.
As for the Avengers pretending to be KOed... Genis has cosmic awareness. He should know if the Avengers are playing possum.
And while we're at it, with his cosmic awareness he should also be able to know exactly what the CSA and Zemo have planned anytime he bothers trying to find out. That's the problem with writing for a character wth cosmic awareness... theoretically the T-Bolts should never have any suprises since they have a way of finding out just about anything.
Jared_Humpherys
10-28-2005, 12:19 PM
the best part was blizzard getting recruited by mach and the fixer.
*i haven't read much of this thread*
i assumed that mach and fixer were working with zemo...but is it possible we could see three "teams" now? songbird's bolts initially working for the government (but i'm betting they rebel), mach's bolts with fixer, blizzard and whoever else they can recruit (old members or new), and the zemo/pym/warbird/gyrich government "team"?
great issue. this series was always good at least since the relaunch, but this just kicked up a few notches. it's a book i'm really waiting to see what happens next with. it's doing a good job of juggling a lot of plots and subplots like the first run did, but without sacrificing character driven moments.
10/10
I'm thinking there may be two teams:
Songbird
Atlas
Joystick
Photon
Radioactive Man
Speed Demon
and...
Mach 5
Giant Man
Blizzard
Zemo
Warbird
Fixer
Anywho, very good issue. This title is becoming one of my favorites.
CyberCoyote
10-28-2005, 01:13 PM
I wonder if Bendis will ever get revenge and have the New Avengers beat up the Thunderbolts.
Fabian has left the door open for that and told him he could have retribution any way he pleased in NA with his blessings. Kind of a shifty offering, though, since Bendis could never write such a story without using up a good 10 issues of his book (as opposed to a fast paced 2 that integrate into the overall plot). If you read the latest Cable&Deadpool there's plenty of playful banter concering such things, too :)
And yeah, if Cap was left on the battlefield any longer he could have worked it out and turned the tide without Sentry there, that's why they pulled him out of it. The guy IS the best there is even if he's not always written that way :(
Fabian has left the door open for that and told him he could have retribution any way he pleased in NA with his blessings. Kind of a shifty offering, though, since Bendis could never write such a story without using up a good 10 issues of his book (as opposed to a fast paced 2 that integrate into the overall plot). If you read the latest Cable&Deadpool there's plenty of playful banter concering such things, too :)
And yeah, if Cap was left on the battlefield any longer he could have worked it out and turned the tide without Sentry there, that's why they pulled him out of it. The guy IS the best there is even if he's not always written that way :(
*ahem* There has only been ONE arc which lasted more than 4 issues (unless you count things like the SHIELD/Hydra/Spider-Woman subplot) in Bendis' run on Avengers. Fabian was actually poking fun at the amount of "talking heads" stuff there is in BMB's work.
Alpha to Omega
10-28-2005, 02:55 PM
Does anyone else think Songbird is hypocrite now? I mean she took leadership of the team because Abe was working for Strucker and now under her leadership the Thunderbolts are doing stuff just as bad.
CyberCoyote
10-28-2005, 03:11 PM
*ahem* There has only been ONE arc which lasted more than 4 issues (unless you count things like the SHIELD/Hydra/Spider-Woman subplot) in Bendis' run on Avengers. Fabian was actually poking fun at the amount of "talking heads" stuff there is in BMB's work.
Hehe, I know, it's the talking heads I'm poking at. Duly noted..it would be four issues with three issues of said talking heads and a fourth issue where..as Luke noted in C&DP the Avengers would just 'blow everything up' :)
Zero Hunter
10-28-2005, 03:20 PM
And yeah, if Cap was left on the battlefield any longer he could have worked it out and turned the tide without Sentry there, that's why they pulled him out of it. The guy IS the best there is even if he's not always written that way :(
Cap can be the best team leader on the planet, but if you give him a bunch of people who DO NOT FUNCTION AS A TEAM then all his leadership abilty is not going to change things. Like I said before the only people that have team experince are Cap and Iron Man. The rest are loners, and it takes a while for people like that to get used to working as a team.
geewaiho
10-28-2005, 03:32 PM
cool issue, least spiderwoman(my fave might i add) charachter gave joystick a good beatdown and showed theres more to her then shooting continous venom blasts and flying out of danger. Shes a highly skilled fighter, has brilliant agility and reflexes and quite ruthless. Wasn't joysticks eyes both swollen and blue from all them superhuman punches to her face :D .
Thought i might add spiderwomans immunity to radiation and poisens and her phermones to refelct she has other powers besides her venom blasts and flight abilities.
Hehe, I know, it's the talking heads I'm poking at. Duly noted..it would be four issues with three issues of said talking heads and a fourth issue where..as Luke noted in C&DP the Avengers would just 'blow everything up' :)
Darned skippy! And who doesn't enjoy stuff blowing up?
Sean Whitmore
10-28-2005, 04:32 PM
One interesting question is, will Blizzard's costume look different?
It probably will, but I hope not too different. Blizzard's current costume is really simple and subdued, with a cool color scheme.
Does anyone else think Songbird is hypocrite now? I mean she took leadership of the team because Abe was working for Strucker and now under her leadership the Thunderbolts are doing stuff just as bad.
Excellent point, and I'll bet you anything Abe makes it to her next time they meet. :)
Yeah, I am really starting to lose some respect for both Carol and Hank. I don't know exactly what is going on here... but to see them side with Zemo against Captain American just doesn't feel right or true to me.
I was losing respect for them last issue, but knowing that Zemo is involved actually makes me feel better. Because the fact that these two people are siding with Zemo over Cap is SO out there, you know something BIG is happening that justifies it.
SEAN
Spiderchick1974
10-28-2005, 04:44 PM
cool issue, least spiderwoman(my fave might i add) charachter gave joystick a good beatdown and showed theres more to her then shooting continous venom blasts and flying out of danger. Shes a highly skilled fighter, has brilliant agility and reflexes and quite ruthless. Wasn't joysticks eyes both swollen and blue from all them superhuman punches to her face :D .
Thought i might add spiderwomans immunity to radiation and poisens and her phermones to refelct she has other powers besides her venom blasts and flight abilities.
And don't forget that Joystick also has enhanced speed and reflexes.
In spite of that, Jessica still put the smack on her...
It probably will, but I hope not too different. Blizzard's current costume is really simple and subdued, with a cool color scheme.
Excellent point, and I'll bet you anything Abe makes it to her next time they meet. :)
I was losing respect for them last issue, but knowing that Zemo is involved actually makes me feel better. Because the fact that these two people are siding with Zemo over Cap is SO out there, you know something BIG is happening that justifies it.
SEAN
In fact, Abe will probably point out that he, at least, went against Strucker when he asked them to cross the line.
And,yup, Zemo has something brewing, something that probably requires the FF and Avengers to be under suspicion.
Alpha to Omega
10-28-2005, 04:56 PM
In fact, Abe will probably point out that he, at least, went against Strucker when he asked them to cross the line.
And,yup, Zemo has something brewing, something that probably requires the FF and Avengers to be under suspicion.
Or y'know he could just be lying.
Or y'know he could just be lying.
Oh, I KNOW he's lying, but he has to have a plan that's beyond just "get people to distrust the Fantastic Four and Avengers". Not that he wouldn't enjoy that, but it's not his style to do things for poops and giggles.
Does anyone else think Songbird is hypocrite now? I mean she took leadership of the team because Abe was working for Strucker and now under her leadership the Thunderbolts are doing stuff just as bad.
I do see some hypocricy in Songbird on a couple of levels.
In regards to Abe, she hasn't proven to be any more moral a leader than him. And in regards to Blizzard, I found it hypocritical how she dumped him for not cutting it on the team, even though back in the day SHE was the weak link that wasn't cutting it. But instead of ditching Songbird, Abe took her and supported her.
I don't know... I'm liking Songbird less and less. Hero issues aside, I'm starting to think she's not a very nice person.
Cap can be the best team leader on the planet, but if you give him a bunch of people who DO NOT FUNCTION AS A TEAM then all his leadership abilty is not going to change things. Like I said before the only people that have team experince are Cap and Iron Man. The rest are loners, and it takes a while for people like that to get used to working as a team.
Spider-Man, Sentry, and Spider-Woman don't have a lot of experience in teams.
But Cap, Iron Man, Wolverine, and Cage however have spend a good amount of their career in teams.
Really most of the T-Bolts don't have a good amount of experience in team setting prior to being on the T-Bolts. But I guess Melissa has done a better job with the T-BOlts than Cap is doing with the NA. Poor Cap... under Busiek he was called the best leader in comics. Under Bendis, newbie team leaders are outshining him. Ah well... maybe future writers will return Cap to the heights he once had.
Sean Whitmore
10-28-2005, 10:18 PM
I don't know... I'm liking Songbird less and less. Hero issues aside, I'm starting to think she's not a very nice person.
I actually dislike the majority of the team. Songbird is a hypocrite, Atlas is an a-hole who beats the crap out of innocent people when their backs are turned, Genis is a gloryhound, and Joystick is...Joystick.
Radioactive Man is too distant to get a bead on. And I like Speed Demon, since he's still got at LEAST one foot in the super villain pool and is utterly unrepentant about it. :)
Which is not to say I don't enjoy reading about them all.
SEAN
Sean Whitmore
10-28-2005, 10:23 PM
Spider-Man, Sentry, and Spider-Woman don't have a lot of experience in teams.
I would actually argue that, although Spidey has never been an official team member, he has a LOT of experience fighting alongside others. He's teamed up with damn near every team and single hero in the MU, multiple times. :)
As for Sentry, we can only speculate. He was good buddies with Reed once upon a time, so he might have teamed up with the FF on occasion.
SEAN
Will.S
10-28-2005, 10:31 PM
Just wondering but you guys think Wolverine and Ronin being there would make a difference? It's not exactly the entire team although their heavy hitters are present.
Sean Whitmore
10-28-2005, 10:38 PM
Just wondering but you guys think Wolverine and Ronin being there would make a difference? It's not exactly the entire team although their heavy hitters are present.
I think their presence would have helped the Avengers considerably, if for no other reason than the weight of numbers would have made it tougher for the T-Bolts to corral them.
Ronin would have added an extra ace, since the T-Bolts have no information on his/her abilities or personality.
I don't know that Wolvie would have made much of a difference. He couldn't tag Songbird or Speed Demon, and Atlas could just fling him away like Cage. Would his claws pierce Radioactive Man's skin?
SEAN
I actually dislike the majority of the team. Songbird is a hypocrite, Atlas is an a-hole who beats the crap out of innocent people when their backs are turned, Genis is a gloryhound, and Joystick is...Joystick.
Radioactive Man is too distant to get a bead on. And I like Speed Demon, since he's still got at LEAST one foot in the super villain pool and is utterly unrepentant about it. :)
Which is not to say I don't enjoy reading about them all.
SEAN
Yeah, some of the T-Bolts aren't exactly likable. Songbird and Atlas especially just don't likable characters anymore.
I actually warming up to the new T-Bolts more. I'm actually digging Radioactive man and Speed Demon the most.
Really, I'm to the point where I wonder which T-Bolt team I'll be rooting for if/when the 2 T-BOlt teams face off. If nothing else, I'm itching to see Blizzard or Abe knock Melissa off her high horse.
Just wondering but you guys think Wolverine and Ronin being there would make a difference? It's not exactly the entire team although their heavy hitters are present.
Honestly no. As I argued before, I think the real fight was Sentry and Photon. If Photon can get rid of Sentry, then man for man the T-Bolts are more powerful. If Sentry can KO Photon before he can teleport him away he'll eat the T-Bolts alive.
I suppose Ronnin might be a bit of an X factor in that he'll be hard for the T-Bolts to prep against since no one knows who he is. But judging from what I see of the guy, I can't see him making that big a difference.
Sean Whitmore
10-28-2005, 10:44 PM
Really, I'm to the point where I wonder which T-Bolt team I'll be rooting for if/when the 2 T-BOlt teams face off. If nothing else, I'm itching to see Blizzard or Abe knock Melissa off her high horse.
I'm definietly behind Abe and Fixer. Donnie's another one I dislike, not because he's weak, but because he's a gigantic wuss. Once he grows a spine, I'm there. :)
SEAN
I would actually argue that, although Spidey has never been an official team member, he has a LOT of experience fighting alongside others. He's teamed up with damn near every team and single hero in the MU, multiple times. :)
As for Sentry, we can only speculate. He was good buddies with Reed once upon a time, so he might have teamed up with the FF on occasion.
SEAN
On paper, I don't see why Spidey shouldn't be a great addition to any team. He can be a team player, he does have experience working with just about every hero in Marvel and against just about every villian in Marvel.
That said, under Bendis Spidey doesn't seem like he blended well in a team setting. In his first NA appearance he ignored Caps directions and 5 seconds later was unmasked with a broken arm. SOmetimes I think Bendis forgets he's NOT writing for a teenage Ultimate Spidey.
Dermie
10-28-2005, 11:16 PM
I'm definietly behind Abe and Fixer. Donnie's another one I dislike, not because he's weak, but because he's a gigantic wuss. Once he grows a spine, I'm there. :)
Blizzard already has grown a spine--check out NTB #8! He took a stand there...he didn't have the power or experience to back it up, but he took a stand! :D
Dermie
10-28-2005, 11:19 PM
Does anyone else think Songbird is hypocrite now? I mean she took leadership of the team because Abe was working for Strucker and now under her leadership the Thunderbolts are doing stuff just as bad.
Just as bad??? How does being blackmailed into accepting a mission from a legitimate government agency equal voluntarily associating yourself with a terrorist group that is plotting to murder millions of people? :confused:
Sean Whitmore
10-28-2005, 11:24 PM
Just as bad??? How does being blackmailed into accepting a mission from a legitimate government agency equal voluntarily associating yourself with a terrorist group that is plotting to murder millions of people? :confused:
They were both done with the same intent...to keep the team alive.
And unless I'm misremembering, when Abe partnered with Strucker, he didn't know of any plan. All he knew was that Strucker was u