Batman... What is actually wrong with his books?

[Ringslinger76]

I know I haven't really enjoyed a Bat book in years aside from Birds and Nightwing. Batman himself has turned me away in years since Miller's famed take on him.
We mostly agree that something is amiss. Even Waid has said that DC is making a concerted effort to shine him up a bit. Is it only his craptacular attitude? This is what I think Bat editors and writers should keep in mind.
1. He is a total prick to his peers. This includes Tim, Dick, Babs, and Alfred. And Beetle never did a damn thing to Bruce and he treats him like Gardner.
2. When was the last time Batman had an accessible adventure? By this I mean, when was the last time he had a TWO part adventure against the A list of his gallery? Stories lose their cool factor when it takes 12 MONTHS to tell a story that you can read in a one hour sitting. I really think stories that are dragged out too far are what is holding the industry back. A kid wants to jump on, but has to go on a holy quest to find the last 9 issues to know what is happening. Great stories can fit in two issues AND you can still have dangling subplots.
3. The color of your average Bat book is WAY too washed out. Dark is great, but there is no contrast and Batman comes off muddy and boring in dark, drab, mucky scenery with art that is aside from Jim Lee very forgetable and utilitarian. Supes is getting the A list art treatment, what about Bats? Remember the good old days of Giordano and Adams when DC had a style guide?
4. If every Bat villian is out of Arkham at once and in every issue then none of them ever get to truly shine. Rein in the rogues a bit. If Riddler is about, then don't make him share time with three other baddies.. makes him less special. This month I count Black Mask, Riddler, Clayfaces, Freeze, Hush, and Jason Todd. There are probably more, but I cut back my Bat book intake.
5. Sub plots without payoffs. How long has Black Mask been running around without a REAL showdown? He killed a ROBIN! Stephanie is dead. Bats should have taken him down the NEXT issue. Don't feed me some "he's important to the current arc" line.. it could just as easily be Penquin, Joker, or Ras in the villian driver seat.

So anyone agree? Disagree? I really want a smart discussion about this so I hope someone else has some thoughts to share.

[Ringslinger76]

I almost forgot.. and this isn't so much a knock on the artistic ability of the cover artists, but the covers since the mid 90's have really been under par. Not from an art standpoint but a story telling standpoint. Every month is a static pose featuring Batman vs. whoever OR a vague picture of something Batmanish that makes sense maybe after I read the book, but doesn't make me WANT to read the book. Compare Batman 645 to any Bat cover from 20 years or so ago. Bronze age Bat titles posed a question that made you want to read and see what was going on. 645 is a picture of Batman and Robin's upper torso floating in space with a bat rope stretched downward. With the cityscape below this cover only makes me think that the severed upper bodies of Batman and Robin are in danger of floating into space and must hold on the their rope lest they never recombine with the missing parts of their anatomy! The only reason I bought this is because its Batman and I'm compulsive. I put this in my classroom and not 1 kid picked it up all week. They all gave Infinite Crisis and Red Sonja a read. The cover didn't sell them.

Now go back and look at something like Brave and the Bold 130... Batman and Green Arrow are tied up and at the mercy of a sword wielding Joker while Two Face flips a coin that the Atom clings too for dear life. There is potential action in that cover and immediate action in that cover. Also their are LARGE print words to help sell the scene.

Put both titles on a shelf in a Walmart or a grocery store and more kids will pick up the 20+ year old book because it does a cleaner job of explaining itself as a product. I'm a comic book, I'm exciting, pick me up.

Of course I could just be one really old fart 29 year old.

[Crinos]

I agree with you so much its scary.

When I go to write for DC, I hope they put me on Detective comics.

Depending on how things go after infinite crisis I would have the following changes:

1. Bruce is no longer Batman. He got crippled in the crisis, and he's now the new Oracle. (Barbara has recovered by now and she is now in Charleston city as the new Blue Beetle)

2. Dick is the new Batman. And he's engaged to Kori.

3. Kori patrols the city during the day, Dick works at night, Bruce supervises from cave. Also, Dick starts dipping into the scifi vault more than Bruce has been.

4. With Starfire running around the villain population DROPS. most villains are either thrown in the slammer or move out of town. The only ones who stick around are the rogues who are tough enough to hang with Star and Dick (Bane, Clayface, Joker, Mr. Freeze) And the idiots who are too stupid to realize their outmatched (Scarface, Killer moth, Cluemaster, Killer Croc)

5. Stephanie Brown comes back in some form. Either through Hypertime, retconning Identity crisis and War games out of existence, or she's ressurected as the new Secret. Doesnt matter, want her back NOW.

6. Tim is the current Robin, Stephanie is now called Sparrow (Or secret if I go that way)

7. Cluemaster kills Black Mask for what he did to Stephanie.

8. With old villains moving out, new villains start moving in. Brother Blood starts a small cult, and Blackfire starts souping up the new villains with gizmos to help them compete with her sister. Amos Fortune shows up too, but he's more annoying than anything. Also, animated villains like Baby Doll, Roxie Rocket, and Tremblor from the new series make appearences.

9. Thanks to generous donations from the Wayne foundation Arkham finally gets an upgrade in security. Translation: You get sent to Arkham, dont expect to be leaving any time soon.

Just some ideas I was throwing around. What you think?

[Gail Simone]

I try not to write that Batman. The Batman I believe in can be a jerk, but not a HATEFUL jerk. He's not good with people, fine, but he doesn't set out to DESTROY people.

I like the Batman who thinks and isn't flawless.

I don't get to show him very often. :)

Gail

[Crinos]

I try not to write that Batman. The Batman I believe in can be a jerk, but not a HATEFUL jerk. He's not good with people, fine, but he doesn't set out to DESTROY people.

I like the Batman who thinks and isn't flawless.

I don't get to show him very often. :)

Gail

And Bless you for that Gail, there are days I think your the only sane writer DC has left.

You made Scandal and Knockout a couple, you made Livewire canon.

I sincerly hope I can work with you someday. :D

[Ringslinger76]

It sounds good to me. Dick has been what Batman should have been for years now. I have said before that the Dick/Kori relationship should be reignited.. its the only time that Dick seems to be truly disfunctional.. he loves Babs, he loves Kori.. but when he's around either for too long he becomes Bruce. That I think is really out of character for Dick.. he's supposed to be the well adjusted one.
I would like to see a thinning of Bat's villians.. Its like the comic writers have learned nothing from the really bad Bat movies..
1st movie just has Joker.. fans rejoice.
2nd movie has Catwoman AND Penguin.. fans still ok but would have been better with just Catwoman OR Penguin.
3rd movie has Riddler and Two Face.. a lot of people don't even remember Two Face was in it.
4th movie.. Bane, Freeze, and Poison Ivy.. too many villians spoil the stir fry!

Comics are working the same way.. I want a return to a two issue arc system.. Joker is in for a 2 issue arc and is gone.. and those 2 issues need to be the same title! Hush, Penguin, Riddler, all are great baddies.. but not when all they do is exist. The REAL PROBLEM is we have all these baddies with the PENGUIN syndrome.. they hang out in Gotham for what seems like forever.. Batman knows they're there.. but they NEVER DO ANYTHING BUT SIT AROUND SHOOTING MEAN LOOKS AT BATMAN! Penguin doesn't mean squat anymore because he's been out of Arkham forever and hasn't done squat. Doesn't plan to do squat. He just sits around looking.. well.. squat.
Remember when the Bat rogues used to only break out of Arkham when they actually had a PLAN?!?! Its like they're the coyote and they've finally caught the Road Runner and they now have no idea what to do with it. It makes them unscary and uninteresting. EVIL MASTER PLANS PEOPLE! Dr. Evil laughs at the Bat villians!
Sharks with friggin lazer beams!
Bat death traps!
Spray Batman with scent of dog kibble and release the rabid wiener dogs, but DO SOMETHING!

[Ringslinger76]

Gail.. forgot to say it elsewhere.. got my VU 6 today.. a week late.. stupid distributors.. AWESOME! You unlike many of your peers get it. What makes characters good and endearing. Thanks for that. My fav Bats is the one from JLU.. that is I'm sad to say FAR superior to his incarnations anywhere else. Like you said.. he can be a jerk.. but not a HATEFUL jerk.

btw.. I heard them Kubert boys are at DC now.. any chance of some Gail/Kubert teamups? Adam or Andy would be sweet on Birds or just about anything... *cough* Batwoman arc *cough*

[Lunar Daydreamer]

I know the bat books have taken a mountain of flack, but the Winick / Manke run and the whole Red Hood storyline has been one of my fave Dark Knight stories that I can remember.

Certainly everyone has their own take on Batman, from writers to fans - and there have been many different incarnations of Bruce & his alter ego over the years. I like many of them to be honest, Winick's has been straight ahead focused serious Batman for example, but I have a *huge* soft spot for Grant Morrison's snappy decisive James Bond like Batman (although ironically, I hate James Bond)

[Cam63]

I try not to write that Batman. The Batman I believe in can be a jerk, but not a HATEFUL jerk. He's not good with people, fine, but he doesn't set out to DESTROY people.

I like the Batman who thinks and isn't flawless.

I don't get to show him very often. :)

Gail

Yup.

I like that Batman.

[Cam63]

And Bless you for that Gail, there are days I think your the only sane writer DC has left.

You made Scandal and Knockout a couple, you made Livewire canon.

I sincerly hope I can work with you someday. :D

Per Ardua Ad Astra, dude !

[Nick Kal]

Well, personally, from reading some current issues... I like what Judd Winnick is doing and I find his writing to be interesting and well done... but I'd like to see some more of Batman's villains and supporting cast. Dedicating 3 or 4 pages to no name thugs vs. Jim Gordon, Montoya, Harvey Dent appearance.. who wins? Latter, I say. Batman just needs to have more of his characters appear... Black Mask and Red Hood have been in teh spotlight for like 20 issues....

[Gail Simone]

I know the bat books have taken a mountain of flack, but the Winick / Manke run and the whole Red Hood storyline has been one of my fave Dark Knight stories that I can remember.

Certainly everyone has their own take on Batman, from writers to fans - and there have been many different incarnations of Bruce & his alter ego over the years. I like many of them to be honest, Winick's has been straight ahead focused serious Batman for example, but I have a *huge* soft spot for Grant Morrison's snappy decisive James Bond like Batman (although ironically, I hate James Bond)


I like both of those...best thing Winnick's done in the DCU, I think.

Gail

[Cam63]

I'd like to see Batman get mightily dished by the Girl Guides for his bad manners and he has to spend the next issue or two trying to win back their favour.

[Gail Simone]

And Bless you for that Gail, there are days I think your the only sane writer DC has left.

You made Scandal and Knockout a couple, you made Livewire canon.

I sincerly hope I can work with you someday. :D

I don't mean to be obtuse, but do you do comics currently? I don't recognize the handle.

But thanks for the kind words!

Gail

[Nick Kal]

I'd like it if Harvey Dent did anything at all.

Things will surely pick up with the Society coming in, though.

[Cam63]

Yes. More Harvey.

[Nick Kal]

Wouldn't it be funny if he was Two-Face during his next appearance? Hopefully not... And hopefully he'll pop up for OYL.

Also, Judd Winnick's story that was discussed in LITG sounds like lt'll be nothing short of amazing.

[Ringslinger76]

I have enjoyed Winick's run more than others in recent memory... which is surprising because I thought his Green Arrow run really put me off. I still think the cover art needs to be rethought by tptb and geared to sell the book to more than just people who would already buy it becuase its Batman. Covers should entice old fans and fans that aren't fans yet.
Someone mentioned the James Bond parrallel.. I don't like Bond either, but you're right.. he works better as a slick operator, Bond in a cape than a grouchy old Clint Eastwood.
I think maybe some of the problem in the book is story focus.. if Clayface is the main villian in an issue, he might only show up for 4 pages. Half of Batman's book does not need to be the GCPD or face time for Bat villians that aren't important to the current story. Trim the fat.. clogs the story arteries.

[Alex Dragon]

Call me crazy but I don't get what people are complaining about with Batman. For awhile I thought people were just taking the "Batdick" term and using it as a new way to complain about the character in general. Part of still thinks that some some people are jumping on the Batman bashing bandwagon because it's the new popular topic though.

I don't regularly read any of the main Bat-titles but I read some of the other stuff he appears in like "The OMAC Project", JLA (depending who's working on it), "Identity Crisis" "Batman/Superman" and the like. Are you guys talking about his attitude in his own titles or those other titles he appears in or both?
Are you guys saying he's been like this for a long while now or has it gotten worse lately?

Like I said I don't get it. I can see where he's probably not as likable as most of the other DC heroes but I think that comes from him being a "cold", "driven" and calculating character. That doesn't make him a "dick" or "mean" in my opinion though. I think Batman is a great character and makes for great interaction with other heroes because he's so different from the others.

[Lester C.]

I think the problem with Batman lies in the fact that since the thirties there have been many different portrayals of the character with each fan having a favorite one. This makes it impossible to any writer to make everyone happy.

[Crinos]

I don't mean to be obtuse, but do you do comics currently? I don't recognize the handle.

But thanks for the kind words!

Gail

Fraid not, I'm still in college as a matter of fact. :(

I plan to get into comics when I graduate though. Hopefully at DC.

And your welcome. :D

[Corrina]

No decent supporting characters left.

Long running and unsatisfactory story arcs.

[Alex Dragon]

I think the problem with Batman lies in the fact that since the thirties there have been many different portrayals of the character with each fan having a favorite one. This makes it impossible to any writer to make everyone happy.

I think you're right. The most of the writers who claim not to like this version probably grew up with a less intense version. I'd have to think that many fans are the same way and like with so many things from wanting Hal Jordan back to hating "Ultimate" titles they simply want things the way they were regardless if was actually better or not.

Batman in his present form adds so much drama, tension, and excitement to the DCU that I think it's a big mistake to mess with him. Just think about all the current big events currently happening in the DCU and you'll realize that Batman is such a driving force to most of it even moreso than Superman and Wonder Woman. Most of the other heroes are simply playing off and reacting to Batman. Why? Because he's the most interesting and different from them. He's pretty much the center of most of the drama in the books he appears in. A move to make him more "likable" will remove one of the most powerful aspects of the character.

I predict that if the character is changed the character will become much more dull. Much in the same way that on some reality shows people want the unlikable person gone and as soon as that happen the show becomes a bore because all the conflict, tension and drama leaves with that person.
The change might happen but the writers will slowly work back to what is pretty much the more interesting Batman when they realize how much more story impact the "dick" version offers.

[Lester C.]

I think you're right. The most of the writers who claim not to like this version probably grew up with a less intense version

It not just a matter of being less or more intense as Batman has been different people altogether. In the original the greatest Batman stories ever told I was shocked to see that Bruce executed a man by hanging him using an airplane. That batman used guns. Now compare that character to the soft and cuddly version of the fifties that hung out with Batmite and Ace the wonder or Bat dog. I could go on and on but you get the idea.

[Kevinroc]

For one, these days you just can't cheer for Batman. You actually cheer against Batman. And in terms of the mainstream, the only DC character who people want to cheer for anywhere near as much as they want to cheer on Batman is Superman. So when we have scenes where Black Canary or Green Lantern (Hal Jordan) showing Batman up, you just gotta wonder what exactly the idea is.

Like I said, Batman and Superman are the two DC characters that a vast majority of people want to cheer on more than any other. It just doesn't look right when Batman is written as a guy that you just don't want to cheer for.

I think Bruce Timm and co. have gotten it right but DC Comics has fumbled the ball with Batman. He's just too much of a prick. You just don't feel comfortable cheering him on.

I also think the return of Jason Todd is a stupid idea. When readers actually vote to kill off a character, that character should stay dead.

[Copper]

.
2. When was the last time Batman had an accessible adventure? By this I mean, when was the last time he had a TWO part adventure against the A list of his gallery? Stories lose their cool factor when it takes 12 MONTHS to tell a story that you can read in a one hour sitting. I really think stories that are dragged out too far are what is holding the industry back. A kid wants to jump on, but has to go on a holy quest to find the last 9 issues to know what is happening. Great stories can fit in two issues AND you can still have dangling subplots.


In regards to this point, I think part of it is the security blanket of the direct market. You'd never think of doing this with the regular newsstand sales (stuff like the Long Halloween would've probably died at the newsstand.) In the direct market, it's usually a given that you'd be able to hunt down back issues if you missed a few, and at my shop at least you can find the last three or four previous issues right behind the current one. In the newsstand there's more competition for retail space, and a retailer is going to replace a comic book with a magazine which will garner more profit. Part of the reason there were so many single issue or two part stories in the 60s and 70s was because there wasn't any guarentee you'd be able to get the next consecutive issue. The caveat is that a lot of fans who got used to the longer story arcs made possible by the direct market probably won't really like the one or two part stories--and since you have the safety net of direct market retailers saving up older issues, I don't see the Big Two going back to shorter stories either. The increasing profitability of trades just makes longer story arcs more "marketable" too.

Just my opinion!

[kipster]

Fraid not, I'm still in college as a matter of fact. :(

I plan to get into comics when I graduate though. Hopefully at DC.

And your welcome. :D


I think you've got some great ideas, but I did notice that in the 2 posts you've made here, you used the wrong form of "their" and "your". Maybe since it's just a message board you don't watch your grammar, but as an aspiring writer, you might want to be careful of those kinds of things.

Hope to see your name on a DC title sometime!

[PatrickG]

Instead of doing a flashback book like LootDK or "Classified" which generally wimp out, why not replace the classified books at some point with something like "Batman: Solo", "Superman: Solo", "Justice League: Solo".

The idea is:

It's set in the present.

It's a story told in 22 pages.

It features no guest-star heroes.

It may not be right for everybody, all the time but you could rotate great creative teams through who don't have time for monthlies or are otherwise overworked.

As for continuity, here are my two provisos:

If Alfred has a broken leg in the main books, his leg is broken in "Solo".

If Riddler dies in "Solo", he's dead in the main books.

Beyond this, references to other books are kept strictly contextual (no plots which hinge on continuations or are continued from other stories directly) and the stories themselves stand alone provided the reader can accept that Alfred's leg got broken and doesn't want any more explanation than that.

[sk716]

Instead of doing a flashback book like LootDK or "Classified" which generally wimp out, why not replace the classified books at some point with something like "Batman: Solo", "Superman: Solo", "Justice League: Solo".

The idea is:

It's set in the present.

It's a story told in 22 pages.

It features no guest-star heroes.

It may not be right for everybody, all the time but you could rotate great creative teams through who don't have time for monthlies or are otherwise overworked.

As for continuity, here are my two provisos:

If Alfred has a broken leg in the main books, his leg is broken in "Solo".

If Riddler dies in "Solo", he's dead in the main books.

Beyond this, references to other books are kept strictly contextual (no plots which hinge on continuations or are continued from other stories directly) and the stories themselves stand alone provided the reader can accept that Alfred's leg got broken and doesn't want any more explanation than that.


Bit why does it take a whole new title to do this. Isn't DC already teeming with Bat titles. Would you really miss it if say Gotham Knights or LotDK swapped to this format?

[PatrickG]

I don't think four books is overwhelming for a character who some people follow exclusively.

An awful lot of people just buy Batman, Superman, Spider-man or X-Men books.

There's talk about replacing "Legends of the Dark Knight". Rather than replace it with a book that's designed to pidgeonhole into all kinds of continuity minutia, set in different "eras", I'd rather see a book set in the present that tells self-contained stories. A bit like BATMAN ADVENTURES but in continuity -- albeit not IMMERSED in continuity.

[Ringslinger76]

I certainly see the point made in regards to the current long story arc trend.. and I have enjoyed many of those long arcs.. Hush, Long Halloween, etc.. I just get very upset when I read a story and say, "This could have been told better in half as many issues if the writer weren't fluffing a 60 page story into a 360 page story." Some stories just don't need to be that long. Maybe ONE of the titles should be scaled down to 1 or 2 parters with the purpose of infiltrating retail shelf space.

I like the Dini-verse Batman much more the the DCU Bats for the reasons people have touched on above. If you like him as is then great, but he's a jerk and I can't root for him like this.. when Hal decked him I cheered. I shouldn't feel that way about my favorite hero since childhood. I wore a Bat cape to kindergarten! I don't like the Adam West stuff either.. I just want a Batman I can respect.

Does anyone have a thought about my remarks about the lack of a style guide at DC for the big characters? Better yet... anyone else have a comment about the current state of the forgettable Batman covers. Drab I say.

[steeler80]

I've enjoyed Winick's run and the few brief appearances of Bats in BOP. I've went on ad nauseam on this subject before, so I'll spare everyone from hearing it again. I'll just mention my major theme again: the perfect blueprint for Batman is BTAS.

[Azrael52]

Whaddup "Ringslinger"? You gettin on your soapbox again. Get 'em boy!! I do enjoy your rants so. You and I have had these discussions for years.

1. I think that the perfect Batman is the Loeb Batman. He "gets" Bruce and Clark on so many levels. Whenever I read Batman by Loeb and then follow with someone else, I'm left with that feeling of "Hey, who's this guy?". I have enjoyed the most part of Winick's run. I love when Gail puts Bats in Boids. Her version is right up there, realistic, you know?
2. I think that Bruce and Dick should always interact the way that they did in Hush.
3. I think that Selina should be a calming effect in Bruce's life and Batman's life.
4. He can say he's proud of Robin and be a mentor for Robin and not be a dick to Robin in his own titles rather than only being "nice" in the Robin title.
5. He so needs Jim Gordon in his life/titles.
6. With the Society, now, the idea of "The Pengun Syndrome" for Bat's villans is moot. Now, villans can go anywhere. Bat's baddies can go play with Lantern and Black Adam can play with Supes (MORE PLEASE).
7. I honestly haven't noticed a trend in Bat covers, but I'll look closer.
a. Gotham Knights #70: a lot going on (other than Batman looking like he's on Venom or what the pro-baseball players take) You've got Hush with a maniac grin and gleam in his eye. You've got poor Alfred: What the hell's happening to him! Ah! And a blurb: "The Truth About Alfred". You expect to hear ominous music notes: dun dun duhhhh!
b. Batman #646: Well! Gee, there isn't anything happening on this cover . . . oh, wait a minute, it looks like all of Gotham has BLOWN UP!!! Also, it shows the story somewhat: Black Mask will be in it, Red Hood will be in it (anyone else notice a color-and-face-covering-moniker-villan theme?), and oh, yeah, Bats is in it, and gee, hope this shouldn't have a spoiler warning, but a FREAKIN' EXPLOSION IS IN IT, TOO!
c. I like the cover to JLA #120, everyone getting the hell away from Batman. Says it all.
d. Here's one I don't get, though: Detective #812, Is Batman on Opiats? This doesn't compel me to read the story, much less invest in all the back issues from this Arc.
e. Journey Into Knight: I dropped this book, but the cover to the 2nd issue is pretty dramatic, but doesn't really tell anything about the overall story.
f. The Jekyll and Hyde covers all gave me a headache for reasons I can't explain.
g. I just looked at Batman #645, and your discription was spot on.
h. Detective 811: WTF!?!

Ok, man, you wanted someone to respond, now respond to my response.

P.S.: Has anyone ever read that First 50 Years of Batman or whatever it's title is? I'm about 1/2 through it, and it rocks! It goes into a lot of detail over Bruce's various attitudes, etc.

Ok, everyone, this post is as long as all my others put together, sorry if I put you to sleep.....[pokes Cam awake with a rolled up issue of Motorbike Puppies].

[Crinos]

I think you've got some great ideas, but I did notice that in the 2 posts you've made here, you used the wrong form of "their" and "your". Maybe since it's just a message board you don't watch your grammar, but as an aspiring writer, you might want to be careful of those kinds of things.

Hope to see your name on a DC title sometime!

Yeah, Grammar is kind of my weak spot I'm afraid, but hopefully I do think I'm getting better about it.

Thanks for your support.

[Alex Dragon]

In regards to this point, I think part of it is the security blanket of the direct market. You'd never think of doing this with the regular newsstand sales (stuff like the Long Halloween would've probably died at the newsstand.)

Back in the old newstand days Marvel regularly had multi-part stories and DC as well. Look at the trades of reprinted stuff from back then. The "Avengers Kree/Skrull War" ran for multiple issues, so did Neal Adams run on X-Men and his Green Lantern/Green Arrow stuff. Those stories didn't last for 12 issues but there's no reason to think that multi-issue stories hurt sales because if they did they would've stopped doing them. The fact that they didn't shows hat fans were willing to follow stories that went past one or two issues.


In the direct market, it's usually a given that you'd be able to hunt down back issues if you missed a few, and at my shop at least you can find the last three or four previous issues right behind the current one.

It might be a "given" that back issues are in comic shops but that doesn't mean a fan back then couldn't just jump into the middle of a story and follow it without the aid of back issues. People do/did it all the time. Back issues are nice if they're available and a person wants them but they aren't crucial to understanding what's going on in the story. I've jumped into the middle of stories without buying back issues even when they were available to me.

[Ringslinger76]

True enough Alex, I see your point about long arcs.. however, I still hold fast to my annoyance over a long arc that doesn't need to be. Hush needed to be that long.. or even longer. Most of the Bat stories, however could be trimmed as a lot of the action and dialogue is repetitive or extraneous.

Az! My man! I shall respond to your responce.. JLA and non bat books don't count.. JLA has usually had great covers in its 100+ issue run.
Sorry to disagree with you on Bats 646, but.. while there is a pretty explosion and two villians.. there is NO context for their relationship on this cover. We don't get anything about what is going on since something ALWAYS blows up in a Bat book.. what makes this unique OR interesting? All this cover makes me think is.. Batman just bought a Toyota or something. Also.. I see no imminent danger or tension.. Bats has apparently already escaped the blast.. so what makes you worry enough about him to read that? Just like a hit song needs one a cover does too.. WHERE'S THE HOOK?

Its not that Batman covers have been the WORST I've ever seen.. but shouldn't Batman covers be consistantly in the Top 5.. HE IS BATMAN AFTER ALL. Are we Batfans becoming poster children for lowered expectations?

Detective 811? What is that? Gene Simmons in a Bat mask? Detective has been the bad cover whooping boy for years now. The "we put it together in photoshop" nameplate on 'Tec doesn't help. Everyone recognizes Superman's logo on his comic because it has NEVER changed and its not OVER PHOTOSHOPPED. Batman's logo has changed over the years and finally the one on Batman is ok again.. I place it third behind the 70's and 80's nameplates. Detective is nothing but block letters.. if that is the best DC can do.. go back to the original stencil so at least its retro if nothing else. And someone get the Detective people a bigger box of crayons to color with please. Spiderman is in the same boat.. endless static Spidey swinging around doing nothing covers and a horrible nameplate. The original Amazing Spiderman nameplate was classic like Supes and whoever changed it should be smacked.

I know.. I talk too much.

[Azrael52]

Yeah, we know you do to, but we love ya for it! How would you change the explosion cover? Have Batman choking Mask and Mask choking Hood and Hood watching the action on a monitor set in front of him? That would pretty much tell the conflict and voyeurism angles. I certainly have to agree with you on Tec, they've gotten better the past 6 months or so, but before that, for like a year, I would look at one of there covers and instantly go find a pencil whose lead I could break off in my retina.

Next Rant?

[Copper]

Back in the old newstand days Marvel regularly had multi-part stories and DC as well. Look at the trades of reprinted stuff from back then. The "Avengers Kree/Skrull War" ran for multiple issues, so did Neal Adams run on X-Men and his Green Lantern/Green Arrow stuff. Those stories didn't last for 12 issues but there's no reason to think that multi-issue stories hurt sales because if they did they would've stopped doing them. The fact that they didn't shows hat fans were willing to follow stories that went past one or two issues.

It might be a "given" that back issues are in comic shops but that doesn't mean a fan back then couldn't just jump into the middle of a story and follow it without the aid of back issues. People do/did it all the time. Back issues are nice if they're available and a person wants them but they aren't crucial to understanding what's going on in the story. I've jumped into the middle of stories without buying back issues even when they were available to me.

Noted. :)
I was just going from my newsstand experiences also--I'd say about 70% of the time I couldn't find the next issue as a kid and I wanted to know what happened next. That said, with some exceptions, lots of comics these days don't do a reprise of what happened last issue which was what helped people follow along even if they hadn't read what happened before.

[Ringslinger76]

That is something DC could stand to borrow from Marvel.. a freaking recap on the inside cover! Lord knows Infinite Crisis needed one! I read all the minis and I still wanted a recap so I wouldn't have to reread anything.

I am glad that the month to month Bat artists seem to be improving, but where is the high profile monthly Bat artist? I'm not talking one arc and out.. I mean lets get a Lee, Turner, Kubert, Adams, etc on a book so he has at least ONE A list regular.. Benes or Udon would be the stuff! Doesn't he deserve at least ONE title with an awesome regular artist?

At least we're getting away from the Bat era where all the artists seemed to have tourettes syndrome in the wrist. I think now we need to hope for some divergence in the bat book color palette.. very dark, which is fine.. muddy and drab.. not so good. Without the old yellow oval on the chest sometimes its hard to see grumpy puss at all.

New POG.. (Point of Grumpiness) If you look at the last few years of Bat titles.. there is a lack of really good cliffhanger, bring you back next month with the ending firmly in mind, To Be Continued pages. Now don't go citing the 5 or 6 cliffhanger endings you can remember.. I know there have been some doozies, but he has like 48 issues a year and the fact is I buy the books out of habit not because I even remember what was going on the month before. I pick up Flash and Hawkman or Birds and I remember exactly what was going on and am excited to see what happens next. This could be because Bats is as disconnected from the reader (needs thought balloons badly) as he is from the rest of the DCU. I know what Wally, Carter, Hal, Dinah, etc is thinking. Bruce might as well be a brainless robot as I no longer have a connection to the character.

Batman/Superman and HUSH to be my favorite exceptions.. of course in those books we know what Batman is thinking.

[Azrael52]

Hey, again, Ringy McSlinger. As for Bat's innermono, he's got the most thought boxes per page of any character I read, and you know I read a lot. He wouldn't work as well with little fluffy clouds of words instead, he's got these blues and violets and greys with words over them.

Back to Loeb, I love his take on Kal and Bruce, b/c he does the whole innerthoughts so well for each character.

Cliffhangers: I go back-and-forth b/t being able to remember which story goes w/which Title, too. Recently, they've been a little better, but you're right.

-Ray

[Mia]

Of course I could just be one really old fart 29 year old.

And that makes me an old hag!

I would boil it down to lazy and sloppy writing. I'd also have to throw in writers who have no respect for him whatesoever. Batman is supposed to be the world's greatest detective, strategist and warrior. And he's been reduced to a knuckle dragging neanderthal. I'm shocked when I read most of the books. This is not who the character is.

The last decent/good writer they had on Batman was Rucka.

[Ringslinger76]

Could it be that the machinations of Bat's rogues gallery has become too pedestrian? If Two Face were trying to scar half of Gotham to make it resemble his own visage, I'd remember that. If Batman were seconds from dying at the hands of the Riddler and a riddle based death trap.. I'd remember that too. Are his villians simply behaving too ordinary thugish? Like I said before.. why break out of Arkham if thats the best plan you've got? These are SUPER VILLIANS... gun running is the best plan they've got?

Point 2: Batman doesn't stick out in Gotham like he used to. Gotham is too murky and dark. Shouldn't Batman stand out in certain environments? One of the two most dynamic and visually stunning characters in comics and in his own books he almost becomes wallpaper swallowed up by Gotham itself. Why would anyone be scared of him that already lives in Gotham? The place is a visual hell hole. If you have the stomach to live there, you're not going to be scared of him. I say let the villians run free.. I haven't seen many actual citizens in Gotham in ages anyway.

[Corrina]

The last decent/good writer they had on Batman was Rucka.

Brubaker.

ten character limit...

[Alex Dragon]

Could it be that the machinations of Bat's rogues gallery has become too pedestrian? If Two Face were trying to scar half of Gotham to make it resemble his own visage, I'd remember that. If Batman were seconds from dying at the hands of the Riddler and a riddle based death trap.. I'd remember that too. Are his villians simply behaving too ordinary thugish? Like I said before.. why break out of Arkham if thats the best plan you've got? These are SUPER VILLIANS... gun running is the best plan they've got?

I think the present Batman writers just don't have as much a need to show Batman's detective as in the past because his villians are less "gimmicky" these days and because of Oracle. Riddler, Penguin, Catwoman, and the like all operated with basically the same time of M.O. and the story structure they were in was basically the same. They'd commit a crime based on their theme and leave some goofy clues and Batman would figure out how to catch them during their next crime. Today's stories aren't so formulaic (is that a word?).

With Oracle around Batman doesn't have to spend so much time chasing answers. I'd imagine the same thing would apply to real life detectives with the internet available.

Point 2: Batman doesn't stick out in Gotham like he used to. Gotham is too murky and dark. Shouldn't Batman stand out in certain environments? One of the two most dynamic and visually stunning characters in comics and in his own books he almost becomes wallpaper swallowed up by Gotham itself. Why would anyone be scared of him that already lives in Gotham? The place is a visual hell hole. If you have the stomach to live there, you're not going to be scared of him. I say let the villians run free.. I haven't seen many actual citizens in Gotham in ages anyway.

Gotham has to be dark and murky for the Batman to really work. The darkness thing will always be there because Bats doesn't operate during the day. As people being scared of him it works because Batman should be something unexpected for regular citizens. Someone suddenly popping up out of nowhere in that costume would startle a person. For crooks there's the fear of him showing up and doing all the awful things to them they've heard about. The first Batman movie gives you a sense of this.

[Ringslinger76]

Alex are not the constant tales of gun and drug running formulaic? I'm with you on the Gotham is dark and Batman is part of that, but I still must disagree with you on the repetitiveness of the villians and their MOs. Lex Luthor has a plan when he shows up in Superman... its gotten to the point where Bat's villians break out and simply wait to be put back. That's not being realistic.. that's being lazy.
I do think Batman needs to reconnect with the Dectective side of his character. Like Mia said.. he has become a knuckle dragging neanderthal. This is partially due to the boring "realistic" schemes of his villians that don't require anything but an address to solve.
I love Babs to death, don't get me wrong.. but I think there should be a complete disconnect for her and Bruce.. It takes away from Bruce's detective aspect and it also diminishes some of what Alfred used to do. I don't care about realism.. this is pure escapism. Batman should have been the first character to pick up on the CSI craze.

[Noah Johnson]

Personally, I'll be interested in Batman again when Tim takes over the mantle. Can we start accelerating DC time to move up the schedule on that? He's a much more interesting character than Bruce anyway.

[Indy24LA]

The one glaring thing missing from almost all Batman books is F-U-N. And I'm not talking Bat shark repellant fun, but just having a hero you like and root for against villains you like and root against.

[Just_A_Rat]

Well, I think there are several things wrong for me:

Firstly, the fact that he is such a big dick. He asserts to Superman in Infinite Crisis #1 that he not about control, but about doing as much as he can, yet he alienates everyone who could work with him. Sure, he has the best interests of the world at heart, but he sure has a funny way of getting there. Nothing like destroying your relationship with the police as a way to help keep things peaceful in your city.

Secondly, enough with Joker being everyone's punching bag. At this point, Batman and Hush have had so many non-violent encounters in Gotham Knights (which, by this point, they should just change the title of to Hush, and get it over with) that they may as well just get together for dinner. But Hush did the unforgivable - he made Joker look bad in Joker's own city. And then Jason Todd came along and delivered a beating on him. Well, it's time for a strong comeback. Joker has to teach them both a lesson. And if he can trash Black Mask while he is at it, so much the better. "Hey! Only I get to kill Bat-sidekicks!" He needs to show the world why he has been number one for so long.

Thirdly, I agree about the overlong story arcs. I would buy more Batman books if I knew I could see Batman going against one of his rogues (the best in comicdom) for an issue or two. Ideally using his detective abilities a little, and also doing a little beating. Is it formulaic? Maybe once, but not anymore. He hasn't done that in years.

Fourthly, lets show the human side of Bruce a little more. Some things happening to him outside of the suit. Let him date a little, let him get put into a Batmanesque situation but not in costume, and force him to think and work in a sneaky way to solve a problem.

Lastly - get rid of Jason Todd. Someone else said it earlier in the thread, but let me be absolutely emphatic about this:

If there is one character in the history of comics who should stay dead it is Jason Todd. When you let the fans vote on a death, bringing the character back tells those fans that you don't respect their opinon. That you don't care that they wanted him dead. There is a long list of characters that I don't think should ever come back (Barry Allen, Captain Mar-Vell, and the list goes on) and Jason Todd was right at the very top of it. And I voted for him to live!

[Bright-Raven]

I've noticed it mentioned that people like the "Bruce Timm" Batman - that's really just an adaptation of the Steve Englehart / Doug Moench / Archie Goodwin (RIP) / Denny O Neil Batman era of the 1970s through about 1982-84, right before Jason Todd was brought in.

And when Doug was writing an arc for LEGENDS OF THE DARK KNIGHT, or Steve did his mini with Marshall Rogers earlier this year - coolness (or the arc that Rogers did with James Robinson for LOTDK shortly after Archie Goodwin's death - another cool story). Would that all the Bat titles had that sense of autonomy to them. I can pick and choose the arc without worrying about anything or anyone else.

But I don't want to be bothered reading Gail's BOP when I know that I'm gonna be dragged into 7-10 other titles written by writers whom I don't like. That's just fact. And so a writer like Gail suffers via association for "group titles".

Idiot publishers.

[Ringslinger76]

YES.. Batman Dark Detective was A GREAT F'N STORY. That tale may be considered retro to some, but while it has its faults it is certainly in the ballpark of where Batman should be right now in terms of characterization, plot, mood, and style! That includes the classic Batman nameplate!

Today's artists are more talented than ever, but nothing kills a cover for me more than an overproduced photoshopped nameplate. Like I said, Marvel should be kicked in the collective nuts for replacing the original Amazing Spiderman title art and DC the same for Batman. Batman's title art from the Neal Adam's era to the late 70's/early 80's Bat books had the best. The one we have today on Batman is pretty good (not as good), but Detective's block style Impact font at size 45 is a lazy shameful piece of crap.

[Corrina]

Dark Detective had some serious flaws, including some god-awful dialogue. But it picked up in the issue with the dream sequence caused by the Scarecrow's fear gas. That's been done before but this was one the best I've seen it done.

After that, the plot kicked into high gear. The last issue, in the Joker's fun house, was terrific. Marshall Rogers rendition of the place was top notch too.

Overall, I'd give it a solid B grade. A little disappointing because of the earlier issues but that last issue ended things really well. A good ending can overcome a lot of flaws.

Marshall Rogers is one of the few artists I will simply buy a book for. I don't see any regular artist like that now on the Bat-books, which is part of the problem now too.

[kingdom2000]

I try not to write that Batman. The Batman I believe in can be a jerk, but not a HATEFUL jerk. He's not good with people, fine, but he doesn't set out to DESTROY people.

I like the Batman who thinks and isn't flawless.

I don't get to show him very often. :)

Gail

Thats a good summary of the Batman that isn't written about anymore. I enjoyed the Batman around the Knightfall years. He was still a jerk but he was human. Now he is literally this crime fighting machine. About the only emotion this machine has is anger and hate. I want the return of the Batman you see in the Animated Series (cliched but there is a reason DC keeps stealing their ideas and work). I want the one with a little humor, the one that did enjoy being Bruce Wayne. I also want to see some range of emotion from the character. A connection to other characters. It seems the writers can't figure out what to do to him so instead they do it to the characters around him. The Robins in the past, currently Thompson and Alfred right now.

Its like there is an editorial mandate that Batman has to be this static hateful character. He is just no fun to read anymore. Its sad to because they have done great things in his universe but because you don't really get his perspective or how he is effected by anything, the event occuring no longer have meaning. Superman/Batman does a great job of truly entering Batman's mind into the story, which is why its one of my favorite books, however its over the top nature doesn't give the writer a chance to go deeper, nor should it. That title isn't for that. It should be done in his monthly books and isn't. I don't know if thats the failure of the dozens of writers over the years or the editors.

Another thing I miss is what the rest of the DCU thinks of Batman. Right now its once again static, either its hate or its fear if anyone even bothers to give that viewpoint which is rare. I re-read Morrison's JLA run. Worth reading if only for the Martian brainwashing that gives Identity Crisis a slighty different view and how many of those stories seem to be fuel for current events. In it he did a good job of showing how others think of Batman. I enjoyed those little moments. For some it was fear, awe, amusement, dislike, an actual range of emotion. Really thats what the Bat writers are missing out on, the range of emotions to the character. They have fixated on just two and that makes for easier time writing but creates a 2-D character.

[Selina Quinzel]

I've never really been an actual fan of Batman, just the world he lives in. While I believe and admire his ideals and respect what he does, I think most writers have a hard time hitting the note that shows he's a walking symbol of fear- but the symbol is one of justice. So he'll terrify the hell out of a criminal, but he does that so he can turn around and reassure the child he just saved and not yell at the victim or be cold. You can be mysterious, stoic and strong without being, for lack of a better word- an ass. Right now what I see as "wrong" with his books is that he's not even standing for justice as the primary goal right now- anger is. In some books on the stands now they've made him a symbol of fear for everyone, not just the criminals.

After finally seeing Batman Begins, I AM a fan of that Batman. That's the Batman I've always wanted, and the one I believe in the most. I guess I'm just hoping Batman will go back to what's really important post-Crisis. Until then, Batgirl is my co-pilot.

[Ilash]

There have been tons of great points brought up but for me, if you want to fix Batman, there is only one thing to do: get rid of the DCU version of him and replace him with the one that first started kicking ass in Batman: The Animated Series and and continues to do so in Justice League Unlimited. In my honest opinion, Animated Batman may as well be called ULTIMATE Batman because that version of the character strikes me as being this perfect combination of all the good sides of the various takes on the character in the comics without any of the bad. Batman comics with this character can't help but be good. Okay, not quite but it would be the place to start.

[Lester C.]

The problem with fixing or retconning a character is that you have to tell your audience that these stories never happened or those characters never existed. This never ever goes well with anyone.

Anyway Batman will always be inconsistent in his attitudes due to the fact that he has several titles he regularly stars in and a dozens of books where he can guest star at anytime. It would be impossible for any character to remain consistent when so many people are publishing his tales simultaneously.

[sk716]

But I don't want to be bothered reading Gail's BOP when I know that I'm gonna be dragged into 7-10 other titles written by writers whom I don't like. That's just fact. And so a writer like Gail suffers via association for "group titles".

Idiot publishers.

While BoP is in the Bat Family of titles it is in no way a Batman book and is usually blessedly free of the crossover chaos.

[Lester C.]

While BoP is in the Bat Family of titles it is in no way a Batman book and is usually blessedly free of the crossover chaos.

Yes and no. While crossovers themselves are few and far between the big bat events will have huge aftermaths that will carry over to birds. An example would be the birds leaving Gotham in the wake of the conclusion to War Games.

[sk716]

Yes and no. While crossovers themselves are few and far between the big bat events will have huge aftermaths that will carry over to birds. An example would be the birds leaving Gotham in the wake of the conclusion to War Games.

But you didn't have to read War Games or even care about what happened during War Games to read BoP and understand what was going on. I don't have the issue handy at the moment, but I remember the first issue after the move having plenty of explaination as to why the Birds were on the move.

[Bright-Raven]

sk716:

With all due respect, I don't care how much crossover there was or wasn't. The fact is, the Birds should have always been their own series completely separate from the Batverse. They weren't, so they aren't getting my money.

Why were they ever in the Batverse anyway? Because Oracle has a past with Bats and Nightwing? So the hell what? Dinah's got her past with Green Arrow - does that mean BOP now has to be a spinoff book from that series, too?!

Oh, I know, I know - it's just DC branding the titles to "help sales".

But if I don't like your brand, you can shove as many new titles into that brand as you like, I'm still not trying any of them.

[Bright-Raven]

Further, why the hell should Nightwing be in the Batverse anymore? He's left Gotham, on his own.

Doesn't anyone remember when Dick went to college and didn't appear hardly at all in the Batman books for like, 3 years?! Nobody cared then, why the hell does he need to be connected to the Bat now?! Why can't he just be on his own?!

I'll tell you why - because DC is lazy. They want to brand everything and force readers into buying brands, instead of just producing entertaining titles and letting readers decide what the hell they want to buy.

(And this is the same problem for Marvel, for Dark Horse, etc. - in no way is it just DC's idiocy.)

[Ringslinger76]

Is that it then? Too many cooks in the Bat kitchen? I wonder if the story quality drop off did start when the Bat books ballooned up from 2 core titles to however many we have now. Is this what keeps DC from putting top talent on the core titles?

Whats the point of revamping Batman in InfC if we'll have the same old monthly teams ignoring or wasting the oppurtunity?

I do think that it is possible that Bats and Supes are suffering from the same story cycle.. that is they are only the instigaters of the meta human violence cycle. It may not be true in every case, but it seems to me that many of the costumed crazies' only real goal is to cause trouble to destroy those two. Not to kidnap some wealthy industrialist, not to get rich, or to rule the world, but simply to take out Batman and Superman. Which makes sense. Otherwise, why would any of them stay in Gotham or Metropolis after so many years? Still the objectives then become stale. Is Batman fighting crime or fighting just for survival?

I do like the rogues MO... Like in the Animated Series, after so many years and defeats, they all want the honor of killing the Bat themselves and see it as a challenge to be the one to bring him down. They don't like outsiders and have a sort of fraternity in Arkham. That to me is an interesting take on the Bat rogues.

[Azrael52]

So why not have a book or mini (heck, story-arch) called Batman: Villans United. This would be a great InfC tie-in without dealing too much with InfC. Let me clarify. From the CBR boards, and YABS specifically, I've noticed a lot of people say that they like IC, but they don't want it forced down their throats. So, let Bats' rogues have a meeting, heck have Luthor orchestrate it and leave. Have them team up and raise hell with Bats. Bring in all the Batverse (still keeping it in one title with one artist and one writer). Have them get their asses handed to them, but come out victorious, have them learn some fundamental truth and have Batman learn AGAIN that he needs others. To make it even more fun, kill a B-level Rogue. Don't kill c-, d-, or even l-stirngers, b/c no one gives a damn. I don't think another Bat character should die, b/c Spoiler was a little over-the-top, but you could even land one of them in the hospital.

[Azrael52]

Loeb writes the best Batman. I've said it in this thread a couple of times, and I'll say it again. (Joeph, you are still sending me that check?) I like NML Batman, too. Rucka can bring out all of his darker traits that we love, not him being a dick, I mean the dark traits we fell in awe of as children. Rucka brings the CSI element as well. Joeph Loeb brings out the person in him. By this, I mean that when Loeb writes Bats, you can tell Batman is a person playing a hardcase.

I admit, I wasn't around for the killing off of Robin II. I actually didn't start reading comics till Death of Superman (yeah, that's what's wrong w/me!). I have read several of the back issues w/Todd in them. I think that even though he was voted off the island way back when, they did a damn good job of bringing him back. There is just loads of potential for the new Todd.

Ok, you may start casting your stones, I've got my umbrella up.

[Alex Dragon]

Loeb writes the best Batman. I've said it in this thread a couple of times, and I'll say it again. (Joeph, you are still sending me that check?) I like NML Batman, too. Rucka can bring out all of his darker traits that we love, not him being a dick, I mean the dark traits we fell in awe of as children. Rucka brings the CSI element as well. Joeph Loeb brings out the person in him. By this, I mean that when Loeb writes Bats, you can tell Batman is a person playing a hardcase.


There's no reason to change Batman because he works fine as is. If a writer wanted to play up the "dick" aspect that some people claim not to like they can and if a writer doesn't like that part of the character it takes almost no effort do so. Either way if handled correctly it's still Batman. If being a "dick" serves the story the writer's doing then let him play it up. If a writer doesn't feel the need to tap into that and does a good story, that's fine too. It's all in what the writer's plans are and execution. Changing Batman and making him more likable doesn't automatically mean you'll end up with better Batman stories.

[Bruce Wayne Jr.]

I didn't read the whole thread, but I have an idea on what's wrong with the Bat-books, and I really don't think it's Batman himself. It's a little strange to see all of Batman's supporting cast go to pieces all around him at the same time. Add the flim-flam business with Hush to Spoiler's rise and fall as Robin (although this will probably hold up better in time), Leslie's dirty dealings, the return of Jason Todd, and Alfred alleged of murder and I'd say the Bat-books have effectively jumped the shark. I'll always follow my favorite superhero, but I won't buy an issue until the 'house' is in order.

[Ringslinger76]

BWJ makes an interesting observation I think.

Alex, I do have to disagree with you. Being consistant with the voice and motivations of a character is not optional. Even though we are talking about tights and flights fictional characters there is still a concept of reality that we adhere to. The only thing that maintains a level of believability in comics is that consistancy of character and motivation. If that is stripped away then you just have some guy in a costume hitting people. Peter Parker can't be the friendly neighborhood cutup hiding his inner guilt one day and then a raving alcoholic wife beater the next. Readers will scratch heads, reality in terms of the title will be blown, and story will suck (much like Batman does now.)

I think many LONG TIME Batman collectors might be in the same boat as me. I buy it because I always have, not because I actually want to. He can be used to tell great stories, but since DC knows that he sells no matter what, they put more money and better talent into less popular heroes to keep them afloat. During Bat's manic depressive years we've seen DC have great runs with Rucka on Wonder Woman, Johns on Flash, Hawkman, Green Lantern, and Titans, Waid on Flash, Superman, and Legion, Byrne on Superman and Doom Patrol, and Gail on Birds and Superman. Many of those have been long and entertaining runs. In that time the only Batman I have liked has been in the animated series. In BTAS he has most definitely not been a "dick," but has been consistant even through 4 different series incarnations up to JLU.

[Corrina]

I think many LONG TIME Batman collectors might be in the same boat as me. I buy it because I always have, not because I actually want to. He can be used to tell great stories, but since DC knows that he sells no matter what,

You might want to consider not buying or more people like you might consider not buying. If the current stories are not enjoyable for you, why not put your money into trades or other comics that you enjoy?

I love Batman. One of the first comics I ever bought had a great Neal Adams cover with Batman and The Spook way back in 1975. But I won't buy his books if I don't like the stories. It's a tough habit to break, I know, but it feels good to get a shipment of comics every six weeks and not be worried that one of them is gonna be so awful I toss it across the room.

[Ringslinger76]

I actually put an issue of Detective on the base of my cat's scratching post. Very interesting to look at the remains. Good kitty.

Can we not throw enough money at some of the animated series/JLU writers to get them to write Batman for a while?

And can we please replace the lazy ass sorry excuse for a nameplate on Detective. That is not a nameplate. That is an oversized type font. Chef Boyardee has a better title graphic.

Does anyone else agree with me that the 70's/80's Batman comic title art was the best? Sometimes I get out an old Power record or issue just to look at that bad ass Batman graphic. THAT you could sell on a lunchbox people.

[Alex Dragon]

Alex, I do have to disagree with you. Being consistant with the voice and motivations of a character is not optional. Even though we are talking about tights and flights fictional characters there is still a concept of reality that we adhere to. The only thing that maintains a level of believability in comics is that consistancy of character and motivation. If that is stripped away then you just have some guy in a costume hitting people. Peter Parker can't be the friendly neighborhood cutup hiding his inner guilt one day and then a raving alcoholic wife beater the next. Readers will scratch heads, reality in terms of the title will be blown, and story will suck (much like Batman does now.)

The Spiderman example you give is over the top ridiculous. It's possible to write the present Batman with the same characteristics he has now and simply not make him the "dick" some of you are referring to without changig the character. Various people have named writers that have done or do just that and their characterization of Batman isn't really that different at all. A person can be "cold", "intense" "calculating" etc., without being a "dick". Gail mentioned earlier in the thread that she doesn't write him as a "dick" and from what I remember her Batman was consistant with what I seen before.

The Batman some of you are complaining about is being made a bigger "dick" than usual lately for the sake of fueling the stories he appears in and creating tension and drama. From what I remember and from what I'm seeing currently they're playing up a certain aspect of him for effect.

I think many LONG TIME Batman collectors might be in the same boat as me. I buy it because I always have, not because I actually want to.

Well then if you don't like how they're handling him and you're buying the books anyway you're part of the problem. And if you're a "collector" then just having the books come out is what's most important and you should be prepared to and expect to be disappointed from time to time. I know you're going to argue with that but that's the way I see people who buy books for the sake of their collection rather than the enjoyment from the actual stories. I don't think there's anything wrong with people who do that...until they start complaining. Sorry, but that's my take on that.

He can be used to tell great stories, but since DC knows that he sells no matter what, they put more money and better talent into less popular heroes to keep them afloat.

That is not true. Batman still gets promoted more than probably any other character in the DCU. DC has their top writers on the Bat-titles. Name the writers who've done Batman in the few years that weren't considered "hot" or talented or a "name" talent on the Bat-books.

[stealthwise]

Wouldn't All Star Batman (or hell, any Batman currently made) be great as the "iconic character" we were promised?

[Ringslinger76]

Yeah Frank and Jim do count as top talent don't they? :) sigh. I'm guessing at this point in his career Miller is above editorial reproach? The way Batman talks to Dick in All Star 1 and 2 make him out to be a raving loon and reminds me of Byrne's Spiderman origin revamp that looked pretty enough but seemed as though the dialogue was being put in their mouths by Cartman from South Park.
Batman's personality can be a little in flux, but not the extreme we see now. In this book he seems sane and rational.. in that one he looks like a blathering psycho that has to be watched constantly. Of course JLA has been playing up his Jackass side for that specific story, but if you read that story it makes a reader not like him. That makes it hard to ever root for him and is the reason why I actually wanted Booster, Guy, and Fire to take him down a peg in OMAC like Hal did jacking his stupid jaw in GL Rebirth. I loved the Batman character growing up (including Year One, but NOT The Dark Knight Returns) and I don't think that I should be rooting against such a character now except that the way he treats the JLA, Alfred, Dick, Babs, Tim, Cass, etc has been ridiculously out of character. It isn't in every issue of every title since 1990 or whatever, but its often enough to make longtime readers say WTH?
Alex, if you're happy with the character then congrats. I'm not one to say I hate this or that so lets burn down DC. I have every issue of Kyle's run on GL even though I'm a dedicated Hal Jordan fan and have spent time and resources collecting every issue of the Silver Age GL run. I love Batman even more. If you disagree with me fine. I'm not trying to pee in your cheerios. There are some of us that have been scratching our heads for years now and I was wanting to see what THEY think. The officer Barbrady, "Nothing to see here you lookey loos" answer doesn't wash with me. The books and character have problems. Maybe not all the ones I see and complain about, but there are some there and now even DC editorial and staff are seeing it. So there is some merit to what I'm talking about.

[Azrael52]

There's no reason to change Batman because he works fine as is. If a writer wanted to play up the "dick" aspect that some people claim not to like they can and if a writer doesn't like that part of the character it takes almost no effort do so. Either way if handled correctly it's still Batman. If being a "dick" serves the story the writer's doing then let him play it up. If a writer doesn't feel the need to tap into that and does a good story, that's fine too. It's all in what the writer's plans are and execution. Changing Batman and making him more likable doesn't automatically mean you'll end up with better Batman stories.


If the majority of his fans (and I'm not saying it is the majority, but it is one of the points of this post) think he's a dick, then shouldn't he be changed. To clarify: if his fans think being a dick is a bad thing, shouldn't he not be one? I'm all for writers "doing their thang" in and out of comics, but there's gotta be a point where DC says, "hmm, this is what the fans want. This is what the writer's doing. They don't match up, lets change them." Also, and lastly, if you already have great storytelling, and by changing anything about any character anywhere, it makes them more likable, then yes, by definition, you're left with a better story.

Peace. I'm outy.

[Azrael52]

Ok, some things for the record. Ringslinger, I know you, and I know how you like to rant. It's one of your endearing qualities. In your rants, if I may analyze, you take a point that you feel one way about and then, you fire away. By MY definition (not Webster's), a rant has to have the following traits: Opinion, Embellishment of Opinion, Entertainment Value, Over-the-Top Theatrics, and strippers. Even though you lack the final element, you still fit the bill.

That said, Alex, don't get so worked up.

And that said: I happen to like Batman currently, but the theme of this thread is basically this "Hey, something is offkilter. What would you do about it?"

RS: You basically said the Bat titles suck, now, in a previous post. I didn't realize you thought that. I just thought you were unhappy w/certain aspects. I would change aspects, but I don't think they suck. I could've done w/o one more retaling of Freezes origins. Origin stories are done to death, but the story was still interesting.

By-the-by, this is by far my favorite thread for thought, and I wish I hadn't already voted in the Coreys. Ok, C-YA!

[Alex Dragon]

If the majority of his fans (and I'm not saying it is the majority, but it is one of the points of this post) think he's a dick, then shouldn't he be changed. To clarify: if his fans think being a dick is a bad thing, shouldn't he not be one? I'm all for writers "doing their thang" in and out of comics, but there's gotta be a point where DC says, "hmm, this is what the fans want. This is what the writer's doing. They don't match up, lets change them." Also, and lastly, if you already have great storytelling, and by changing anything about any character anywhere, it makes them more likable, then yes, by definition, you're left with a better story.

Peace. I'm outy.

This touches on something I addressed in another thread about people on the 'net affecting change. I think the people who think Batman is a "dick" might not be a majority and of those people actually think he is a "dick" might be perfectly fine with it. The people who don't think he's a "dick" or are fine with it more than likely won't be on a messageboard saying Batman's fine as is in a direct way. However, people who don't like it will post complaints. And even some of the people who agree Batman's a "dick" may totally agree that he is but not all of them want to see him change.
You can't or at least shouldn't judge what the majority of fans want by the few vocal posters on the net. Even in this thread there's not really that many people complaining about about Batman being a "dick" to the point he needs to be changed it's really a few (considering the number of posters here) who are vocal about it. If I were an editor I think it would be foolish to make a major change in the character based what a few people (yes, they're few in the overall scheme) are saying saying or even changing the character because a few writers don't like what other writers are doing with him. Like I mentioned before there have been names of writers mentioned in this thread who people don't feel write Batman like a "dick". I've read some of the work by the people mentioned and I don't think they portrayed Bats as a "dick" and the character was very much in character and didn't violate his other appearances. So it's safe to assume that all Batman appearances don't have him behaving in a "dick"-like manner.

So how do we know if it's a majority who don't like the current Batman and want to see him changed? Judging the current sales I'd think Batman is fine the way he is. Does the non-"dick" Batman consistantly outsell the "dick"? Is there any hard data showing the majority of fans want a change?

Remember when THE ULTIMATES from Marvel came out? There were some very vocal fans complaining about how unlikable the cast was. If we were to judge things by that vocal minority then THE ULTIMATES would've been a huge flop. Yet the book is one of Marvel's best sellers and has incredible buzz even years later. The very same people who complained the unlikable characters are right there buying every issue and talking about the book when it hits the stands. Now, can you say Marvel did the wrong thing by not changing the book? Was it a mistake to not listen to those posters?

If Ringslinger doesn't like the current Batman and think he's a "dick" that's perfectly legit and believe me when I say I'm not bothered by it in the least. If he doesn't like the current Batman he doesn't like him. However, when he says stuff that I don't think is true to justify his dislike I feel the need to challange him or anyone how does that. Not to put him/her down or be mean but to simply point out DC, the editors or the writers aren't just throwing stuff out their without any care of the fans or quality. To say or even imply that DC doesn't put good talent on Batman and don't invest money in the character is something I don't think is true and can very easily be checked. It wasn't my intention to slam Ringslinger's opinions.

I think the thing with some fans is that don't realize the horse is dead and they need to get off. At some point if the character isn't appealing for you you need to give up and move on. Wasting money and time reading something you don't like is such an incredible waste to me. If you're a "collector" then "likablity" and quality really aren't your number one concern and at some point you just need to accept that you're going to get stuff you don't like. DC, Marvel and most companies put out books to try to appeal to the largest amount of readers. Some fans don't seem to realize that sometimes what the majority likes or what works best might not vibe with what they like. Not saying that's the case for Ringslinger but talking in general.

[Astonishing X-Fan]

I have to say that refusing to buy BOP because it has a small connection to the Bat-titles is stupid. 2/3 of the main characters are Gotham heroes, of course there's going to be a connection. But you don't have to read a single Bat-book to follow and enjoy it.

In fact, it doesn't even take place in Gotham anymore. I don't think it's even officially considered a Batbook these days.

And as far as the Batbooks go...I think there's one thing they really need: more of the rogues. Johns' Flash run was great to me because of the big spotlight on the classic rogues. And I don't want them mistreated like they are in Gotham Knights.

I want to see massive brawls with Killer Croc. I want to see Posion Ivy not be dead and wreaking havoc, trying to turn Gotham into her own personal, green paradise. I want to see Riddler and Bats in real battles of wits. I want Joker to stop getting kicked around and come back with a blowout party that rocks Gotham to it's very core.

And the rogues need to INTERACT more. Like in Flash or "Almost Got Im" from B:TAS. Batman's rogues have such fun, unique personalities, that when you put a bunch of them in a room together it's just a joy to watch/read. I want to see more of the Ivy/Harley/Joker love/hate realtionship we got tastes of in the animated series. Things like that...things that make the villains a little more human without taking away their threat...is what I love to see.

[Azrael52]

Yep! Gonna make a drinking game out of the word "dick" in this thread! I'm not a drinker, but c'mon, you can't pass this up, right????

Hey, Astonishing, you like having the Bat Villans together? See what I was saying about a one-shot or arch called Bat Villans United (to my knowledge theres not one, but I was saying that'd rock!).

By the way, and this is probably not for this forum, but where is Harley?

Ok, back to the rants!

[Cam63]

Yep! Gonna make a drinking game out of the word "dick" in this thread! I'm not a drinker, but c'mon, you can't pass this up, right????

He's a dick with ears. Pointy ones.

I'll head to the bar !

[Astonishing X-Fan]

Harley's part of The Society right now. Last seen in Superman/Batman, can't remember the issue number, but it was the Supergirl spotlight issue that was re-released as Supergirl #0.

And yeah, a Batman VU would be cool. Hey, how about a once-a-year that follows the "Almost Got Im" formula...where each year, the rogues gather to play a game of pool or cards or something, and swap stories and schemes. Could be a fun little tradition.

[Ringslinger76]

Ok.. pardon any typos.. its wicked hard to tope with a cat sleeping on my arm.

Alex.. I do appreciate your feedback and I'm not so far gone that I think that no one in their right mind would be attracted to the current Bat teams. Part of my purpose for this thread is because I'm not happy with it and have dropped it from my pulls only picking it up occassionally to see if it has improved. I intended to bounce ideas off of others to see why exactly it feels off for me. Think of my posts in this thread as me thinking out loud or throwing the spitwad at the wall seeing what sticks.

What this reflection has led me to think...
1. I do not like the current crop of artists/colorists. It may be a style issue. I think it has to do with the limited color palette in the books (most definitely the case in Detective.) Batman can be dark, but his rogues should then at least add the color and contrast so I don't feel like I'm looking into a bowl of charcoal cereal. I was spoiled in my childhood by Adams, Breyfogle, Aparo, etc. I do prefer a cleaner style.

2. Even this week, I'm seeing DC make effort to have Batman's pov explained. Its not his actions that has me using Bat books for kitty litter. It is the laziness of certain writers and their disinterest in humanizing Bruce at all. Sometimes I don't believe certain versions of him would save anyone from a waterballoon let alone Killer Croc. I thought he was handled very well in Catwoman that was released today as a matter of fact. He should hate the villians, but hopefully someone of his calibur of mind and intellect can make the seperation from baddies and family. He thanked Dick today in JLA.. step in the right direction.

3. Flash villians are more interesting. Let me say that again.. FLASH VILLIANS ARE MORE INTERESTING. I read both titles and Bat's rogues are too pedestrian. Their schemes are too boring.. gun running, drug running.. yadda, yadda, yadda. The big baddies have a little baddie underling arm race.. run Bats through the gauntlet.. ho hum.

4. I want a story RESOLVED. I skip issues.. I admit it. Am I possibly skipping the finale of every Bat arc in the last few years? Did I miss Bats bringing Black Mask down for killing Steph? Did I miss the ending of any of Hush's schemes.. talk about overused villian! Give a reader a "The End" to something. Conclude an arc. Lets see Bruce sitting in the Batcave hitting "Case Closed" on the Batcave computer. We know when a new chapter begins and ENDS in GL or Flash.. Batman's arcs seem more amorphic. When an arc is over, I like to reread all of the issues together to get the details and savor it. I don't know how to do that with Batman because I never know when a story begins or ends. Forget DC and Marvel having unfriendly continuity.. Batman alone has a very unfriendly short term continuity.

5. Lastly.. am I the only one who has started to roll eyes at Miller's All Star Batman? Since when does Bruce GET OFF SCARING LITTLE KIDS WHO JUST LOST THEIR PARENTS? If I hadn't used previous versions of Robin's origin to resolve what I was seeing and reading I'd be jacking Bruce's jaw myself. What an ASS HAT. I almost think Miller is starting to believe too much of his own press. Not everything is Sin City Frank. I hope this doesn't become the status quo of Robin's origin. Cool art... Bruce unfortunately = unforgivable ass.

Alex.. thank you for the feedback.. I hope that our back and forth hasn't offended you at all. I rely on my friends like Azreal and SK to keep me in check sometimes since I can be rather pushy with my opinions sometimes.. have to remind myself that typed words don't sound the way I say them outloud.

[Ringslinger76]

Another side of my Bat's stories/villians are too boring.. I love Batman much more in Superman/Batman and JLA because there he is the "normal" guy who is smirking in the face of supervillians and kicking their teeth in. In his own books he seems at times like a cop off payroll. I don't get the WOW factor as much in his own books.. the "comic" book sense of awe is missing for me. HUSH had a WOW factor. Bats/Supes has a BIG WOW factor. I wish Batman had ONE title to himself with that kind of WOW factor and a fast pace. I feel currently as though I have to quit caffiene to enjoy his regular titles. Too many generic thug fights... too much extranious conversation.

[sk716]

Ringslinger, I agree with you on several points. On others, I'm a little blasie. Anyway...

Yep, the color pallet needs some work. Everything is dark and murky, I keep hoping Joker will pop out of nowhere just to add a little color.

I hate Hush, the character, not the Loeb/Lee run. He's over used and the thing that made Hush a good villian in the HUSH run was destroyed by suddenly making him NOT Tommy.

Why the hell is Poison Ivy dead? First we'll kill off Stephanie, then we'll kill off Ivy, now we're told Steph didn't have to die because Dr. Leslie Thompkins is a sadistic &^%@#. When did the doppelganger of Leslie show up? And, yeah, I wanna know why Bats hasn't put Black Mask in ICU. And I still demand to know who decided to bring back a character the fans VOTED dead! Sorry about the rant but I'm a little pissy about all of that.

And, yeah, I think the Bat has been portrayed as a 'dick' (drink, Cam) more noticably since a few months before War Drums.

I find it difficult to "keep you in check" when I'm in agreement for the most part. I probably hate All Star Batman and Robin more than you do.

What do I disagree about (I know how you think). Batman has excellent villians, for the most part. The problem is, they aren't being used. I think Flash's villains are dull, the whole Rogues Gallery thing was dull for me, even though I do understand that many, many people loved it and why.

Now, make yourself happy by popping BTAS into the DVD player and pulling out all of those wonderful "Batman Adventures" comics I know you have tucked away in your miniature nothing's for sale comic shop.

[Ringslinger76]

SK,
You know I love Bat's villians more.. its just how they're being used that sucks. If they're all out of the toy box at once then none of them are really special. Its like at Christmas when a parent gets a kid too many toys and none of them are appreciated. Let the Riddler, Hush, Joker, Croc, etc collect a little dust and then when they show up it'll mean something. And let them for the love of all that is holy have a plan when they escape rather than just escaping.. now what? Remember when the villians had a plan before they bothered to break out? I'm not saying lets go back to 50 foot pennies and robotic dinosaurs.. hey wait.. yeah I am.. those things were freaking cool! That's why they're still in the Batcave as eye candy.

I'm hoping Ivy will end up not being Ivy.. Like in the end of the Diniverse mini where we learned Ivy was alive and well and the Ivy that died was one of her plant dopplegangers. Pamela Isley is alive and flesh toned in a botanical lab.

As far as the clear beginning and closing of arcs.. Gail does this expertly in Birds when there is a definite end to a story we have a moment when the girls take a breath and we know the next issue will start something new. Bats not so much. When was the last issue that effectively closed an arc. Let me know.. I'll go buy it or reread it. Bats also needs a shot in the arm called improved cliffhanger moments in which Superman and Flash currently do a MUCH better job which brings me back issue after issue.

Finally, I am an art whore. I love stories, but its not enough. I need the attractive nameplate, the bright primary colors here and there, and I need inkers and pencillers who don't perform like they have a leaky pen or have had too much coffee.

[Astonishing X-Fan]

I should mention that Hush IS, in fact, Tommy Elliott. The whole "he's not really Tommy" thing was a swerve courtesy of Clayface.

As for Ivy, I disagree that she should go back to her normal, white-skinned look. I LIKE her as one of the few metahuman Bat-rogues, and I like her as a literal mother nature.

I think that her "death" really did leave the door open for her return, as she died while trying to give herself her powers back, and in the end we see plants growing all around her grave. Perhaps the intention all along is to bring her back, a "regrowth"...and if that's the case, no problem here.

Pamela Isely is too good of a character and has too much potential as a serious villain to be dead.

As for how the other baddies are being used right now, has anyone read the last Riddler arc in Legends of the Dark Knight. Personally I think that was a great Riddler story. Hopefully they'll be able to keep him up there for a good, long time. But the other villains you're right on the money with: just dead boring. The Ivy/Harley/Clayface stuff in Superman/Batman was the last issue I read where the Bat-villains were entertaining.

[Alex Dragon]

Ok.. pardon any typos.. its wicked hard to tope with a cat sleeping on my arm.

Alex.. I do appreciate your feedback and I'm not so far gone that I think that no one in their right mind would be attracted to the current Bat teams. Part of my purpose for this thread is because I'm not happy with it and have dropped it from my pulls only picking it up occassionally to see if it has improved. I intended to bounce ideas off of others to see why exactly it feels off for me. Think of my posts in this thread as me thinking out loud or throwing the spitwad at the wall seeing what sticks.

That's fine with me. I just didn't want you to think I was being a "dick" because I don't agree with you and challenge you on certain points you bring up. I don't mind debating as long as it doesn't get ugly.

What this reflection has led me to think...
1. I do not like the current crop of artists/colorists. It may be a style issue. I think it has to do with the limited color palette in the books (most definitely the case in Detective.) Batman can be dark, but his rogues should then at least add the color and contrast so I don't feel like I'm looking into a bowl of charcoal cereal. I was spoiled in my childhood by Adams, Breyfogle, Aparo, etc. I do prefer a cleaner style.

I don't get what you're talking about here. First you talk about color and colorists and about things being too dark then you say you were spoiled in your chilhood by Adams, Breyfogle and Aparo but to my knowledge none of them ever did the coloring on the books they drew.

Batman is a dark character in a dark city. The bright baffoonish costumes his villains used to wear is a thing of the past and don't really fit into the more serious Bat-verse. The current Batman operates in a dark and moody world where cold harded murderers and twisted villains exist and the light hearted "pesky" villains are long gone. Batman these days is basically a crime drama not a superhero adventure type book.

2. Even this week, I'm seeing DC make effort to have Batman's pov explained. Its not his actions that has me using Bat books for kitty litter. It is the laziness of certain writers and their disinterest in humanizing Bruce at all. Sometimes I don't believe certain versions of him would save anyone from a waterballoon let alone Killer Croc. I thought he was handled very well in Catwoman that was released today as a matter of fact. He should hate the villians, but hopefully someone of his calibur of mind and intellect can make the seperation from baddies and family. He thanked Dick today in JLA.. step in the right direction.

First off... a writer isn't "lazy" because they don't do what you want them to or share your priorities about what's important. I'm sure if you ever asked the writer in question they'd explain why they do certain things they do and the effect they want it to have. You may not like it or agree but I seriously doubt the decision had to do with laziness.

Secondly, I'm surprised you need Batman's p.o.v. explained. If you're a fan of the character you should understand why the character acts the way he does. The way Batman acts makes logical sense given what we've seen in the past and the make up of the character.

3. Flash villians are more interesting. Let me say that again.. FLASH VILLIANS ARE MORE INTERESTING. I read both titles and Bat's rogues are too pedestrian. Their schemes are too boring.. gun running, drug running.. yadda, yadda, yadda. The big baddies have a little baddie underling arm race.. run Bats through the gauntlet.. ho hum.

Flash is a different type of character in a different type of setting with different sensablities applied. Flash will have more colorful villains with bigger more colorful schemes. Batman is a street level character (for the most part) set in a more "realistic" environment. Flash is much more of a fantasy character. It's like saying Daredevil's villains are lamer than the Silver Surfer's because DD's foes are boring street level thugs who just want to rob and kidnap not like those cool Surfer villains who want to take over a planet.

4. I want a story RESOLVED. I skip issues.. I admit it. Am I possibly skipping the finale of every Bat arc in the last few years? Did I miss Bats bringing Black Mask down for killing Steph? Did I miss the ending of any of Hush's schemes.. talk about overused villian! Give a reader a "The End" to something. Conclude an arc. Lets see Bruce sitting in the Batcave hitting "Case Closed" on the Batcave computer. We know when a new chapter begins and ENDS in GL or Flash.. Batman's arcs seem more amorphic. When an arc is over, I like to reread all of the issues together to get the details and savor it. I don't know how to do that with Batman because I never know when a story begins or ends. Forget DC and Marvel having unfriendly continuity.. Batman alone has a very unfriendly short term continuity.

You have no idea how hard I'm laughing right now. I'm surprised you don't want Batman walking into the sunset with the caption box underneath telling you who next month's villain is. Or maybe that big goofy grin in the last panel as Batman explains to Robin and the readers how he was able to figure out the clues the the villain left as he stands over the captured villains and that big caption box with the words "THE END" written in it.

5. Lastly.. am I the only one who has started to roll eyes at Miller's All Star Batman? Since when does Bruce GET OFF SCARING LITTLE KIDS WHO JUST LOST THEIR PARENTS? If I hadn't used previous versions of Robin's origin to resolve what I was seeing and reading I'd be jacking Bruce's jaw myself. What an ASS HAT. I almost think Miller is starting to believe too much of his own press. Not everything is Sin City Frank. I hope this doesn't become the status quo of Robin's origin. Cool art... Bruce unfortunately = unforgivable ass.

Alex.. thank you for the feedback.. I hope that our back and forth hasn't offended you at all. I rely on my friends like Azreal and SK to keep me in check sometimes since I can be rather pushy with my opinions sometimes.. have to remind myself that typed words don't sound the way I say them outloud.

Well, here's some feedback you probably aren't going to agree with either....

You basically will never get the Batman you want or are happy with because it's not 1980 anymore. Unless DC makes a bold startling suicidal move and suddenly lets John Byrne write and draw all the Bat-books I'm afraid the Batman you want is a long gone relic of the past. All of the stuff you mention above is basically you wanting Batman and the stories to be done like they were 20 years ago. That's simply not going to happen. Even if DC makes a mandate to make Batman less "dick"-like you still won't be happy because coloring, story structure, styles, and characterizations have moved past that of the 80s.

You should be reading BATMAN ADVENTURES because that's as close to the Batman you like as you're going to get these days. I guess I can understand you having a fondness for the type of stories you read while growing up but today's audience probably wouldn't support the type of Batman of old you'd like to see.

[Astonishing X-Fan]

"You have no idea how hard I'm laughing right now. I'm surprised you don't want Batman walking into the sunset with the caption box underneath telling you who next month's villain is. Or maybe that big goofy grin in the last panel as Batman explains to Robin and the readers how he was able to figure out the clues the the villain left as he stands over the captured villains and that big caption box with the words "THE END" written in it."

Alex, you completely missed his point. He just wants resolution at the end of each arc, and that's not asking for much at all. And the Batbooks have had a lack of it lately. They'll drag one story(like the neverending Hush saga in GK) out far, FAR too long, without ever really ENDING it.

There's nothing wrong with leaving plot thread to be explored in later arcs. But each arc needs to have a concrete end to it. That is ALL he was saying, don't be a troll and blow it way out of proportion.

[MacQuarrie]

I try not to write that Batman. The Batman I believe in can be a jerk, but not a HATEFUL jerk. He's not good with people, fine, but he doesn't set out to DESTROY people.

I like the Batman who thinks and isn't flawless.

I don't get to show him very often. :)

Gail
I would argue that Batman is actually more of a Boy Scout than Superman.

If you ask me, the psychotic Batman driven to avenge the deaths of his parents is a horrible misreading of the character. He's driven, all right, but not driven by revenge. He doesn't go out an beat up criminals to punish them for what happened to Thomas and Martha. He is driven by the need to protect other children from having to go through what he did. He beats up criminals to protect other people.

He's not feeding his own ego or nursing his own hurts; he's completely selfless. Nobody else can do what he can, so he has to do it. If he doesn't do it, another 10-year-old kid is going to be on his knees beside the lifeless bodies of his parents. So he goes out and does his damnedest to make sure it doesn't happen again.

That's a Boy Scout.

[Bright-Raven]

And don't forget - Bats is always prepared!

Yup... Boy Scout!

[Ringslinger76]

So why would a person like that a boy scout or at least a very concerned citizen who has trained for years to PROTECT people get a sick giggle from scaring the crap out of a little kid who also just lost his parents. I still think Miller has bought too much of his own hype, Alex.

I've said before that I don't miss Adam West Bam Pow stuff. My complaints are fair and reasonable. Story arcs need to end. Right now, many of them don't. Occassionally Superman or the Flash sends someone to jail. Batman who is supposed to be the best is rather slow about it lately.

Colors are drab. Artists are hit and miss. None of which are in the league of Adams or Aparo IMHO.

Bats is a dick (drink) depending on who is writing him. His villian's schemes are dull and unimaginative. Any thug can set charges and blow up Gotham waiting for Batman to simply find him and put him back in jail. Do we need to waste Joker and Black Mask that way? Penguin hasn't been anything but a snitch for years now.

Don't knock Batman Adventures it has a "clean" art style with a definite hook. It has the proper mix of color and contrast. Batman is black and grey. His villians are interesting and have actual schemes. Its not childish.. the Diniverse is just better written.

Alex.. please list some GOOD examples of Bat title story telling and art so that I may reevaluate my pull list. Simply telling me I'm off base isn't convincing me. I personally think I have an ounce of truth in almost everything I've said. And the writers and artists might be ok.. but not for Batman as far as I'm concerned. Maybe then my issue is editorial judgement. Who knows. Anyone have any ideas?
Have to go to work.. have fun kids.

[Alex Dragon]

So why would a person like that a boy scout or at least a very concerned citizen who has trained for years to PROTECT people get a sick giggle from scaring the crap out of a little kid who also just lost his parents. I still think Miller has bought too much of his own hype, Alex.

Miller's at the point where DC is just so happy to have him do a book he can pretty much do anything he wants to. I think his version of Batman is all wrong ("wrong" is probably too strong) and wouldn't work long term if he had to actually write him for any length of time. Miller makes it work in his own little Bat-verse where he has to change all the surrounding characters to make that Batman work in a short mini but if Miller's over the top Sin City Batman were thrown into the real/regular DCU the character would completely fall apart. There's no way the other DCU heroes would respect or even put up with Miller's Batman. Could you imagine that Batman in the JLA? The other heroes would simply dismiss him as a loon.

But...As "wrong" as I think Miller's Batman is I'm thinking I'll find his ALL STAR book entertaining. I'm well aware that this is just another version Batman and it can be interesting seeing other people's take on the character. The Batman movies, the animated series, the ADVENTURES books, etc., etc., are all different versions of Batman that are entertaining. I'm able to enjoy all those Batmans as long as the story he's in is entertaining.

I guess we're very different in our take on what's most important to a good comic. My main concern is if the story is entertaining. Having the hero be "likable" is far down on the list of priorities. I don't need to be able to cheer him/her on, I need him/her to move the story and make it entertaining. That's why I find Batman so entertaining and important to the current happenings in the DCU. At the end of the day I read this stuff to be entertained not visit "likable" characters or to be taken back to the stories of my youth. That's not a putdown of those who do but it's not where my head is.

I've said before that I don't miss Adam West Bam Pow stuff. My complaints are fair and reasonable. Story arcs need to end. Right now, many of them don't. Occassionally Superman or the Flash sends someone to jail. Batman who is supposed to be the best is rather slow about it lately.

Colors are drab. Artists are hit and miss. None of which are in the league of Adams or Aparo IMHO.

Bats is a dick (drink) depending on who is writing him. His villian's schemes are dull and unimaginative. Any thug can set charges and blow up Gotham waiting for Batman to simply find him and put him back in jail. Do we need to waste Joker and Black Mask that way? Penguin hasn't been anything but a snitch for years now.

I covered all that in my last post. If you're waiting for Batman to go back to that type of villian, art, tone, or story you're going to be disappointed. The Batman books are crime dramas now. It's like expecting to see alien stories on CSI. You're talking about the more fantasy Batman. That era's past.

Don't knock Batman Adventures it has a "clean" art style with a definite hook. It has the proper mix of color and contrast. Batman is black and grey. His villians are interesting and have actual schemes. Its not childish.. the Diniverse is just better written.

I didn't knock it. I've heard great things about that book. I merely pointed out that that's the book that comes closest to the Batman you want to see.

Alex.. please list some GOOD examples of Bat title story telling and art so that I may reevaluate my pull list. Simply telling me I'm off base isn't convincing me. I personally think I have an ounce of truth in almost everything I've said. And the writers and artists might be ok.. but not for Batman as far as I'm concerned. Maybe then my issue is editorial judgement. Who knows. Anyone have any ideas?
Have to go to work.. have fun kids.

If you read the books and don't like them then me naming books won't change your mind. We have different likes and tastes. More than anything the stuff I'm saying here is my attemps at trying to point out why things are the way they are and why they might work for other people. Also, why I don't think the character needs to change. What you want is what you want. It's not "right" or "wrong". I think based on what sells and the difference in today's fans, the Batman and type of stories you want to see wouldn't be as entertaining or as powerful as the current ones. Maybe I'm wrong.

[Corrina]

You basically will never get the Batman you want or are happy with because it's not 1980 anymore.

David Goyer and Christopher Nolan basically used the 1980 Denny O'Neil template of Batman for "Batman Begins."

If it's so outdated, why was it a commercial and critical success?

[Ringslinger76]

I hate calling it "retro" Batman, because to me it is just "good" Batman. Batman's first encounter with Ras Al Ghul by Denny and Neal is still one of the best Bat yarns ever and is no way outdated. Alan Moore's Clayface story which was reprinted recently in the Moore Anthology is outstanding and falls safely under the halo of "retro" Batman. I think what ONeil and Moore do well that writers don't today is pacing.

Elements of today's arcs.. not the entire arc.. just elements.. can last for issues and issues. Things that Moore or others would likely move past in pages if not panels are stretched out for months and months. I don't think Bat writers even know themselves when a story will end. They seem to fluff until a new idea comes along. Spiderman arcs have a "1 out of 5" on the cover of a new arc that lets us know, "hey, this is a five part story, buckle up and wear a helmet." Flash has always been good about this. Quick and the Dead, Terminal Velocity, and others always let you know where in the arc this issue lies. JLA, Superman, Wonder Woman, Avengers, X-Men all perform this public service. Batman declines to do this and its frustrating.

I want a story to have the basic parts of a story that I teach my students that ALL stories should have. PROLOGUE, RISING ACTION, CLIMAX, FALLING ACTION, and CONCLUSION. Batman seems to be continually in rising action, but climaxes are fuzzy and conclusions are difficult to find with a magnifying glass.

[Ringslinger76]

David Goyer and Christopher Nolan basically used the 1980 Denny O'Neil template of Batman for "Batman Begins."

If it's so outdated, why was it a commercial and critical success?

Thank you.
This is basically the same argument I used to have over people who thought I just didn't like Kyle before Hal came back. I liked Kyle and still do. I just didn't think that Winnick and Raab were knocking the ball out of the park. Hal works as GL (under Johns) because he is true to his character, he portrays the arctype, and gives reader that escapist wish fulfillment that we all enjoy. Batman used to be wish fulfillment. We can't wake up one day and be Superman or Wonder Woman. GL and Batman are just guys. One has been given the Sci Fi equivilent of Excalibur and the other is the peak of human acheivement mixed with Sherlock Holmes and James Bond. No one in their right mind would want to be Bruce as is now. There aren't enough triumphant moments where we see the "greatest aspirations of human achievment."

His stories read more like transcripts of my brother playing Everquest.. questing for the sake of it without end and real purpose. And hes a dick (drink).

Movie was good though. It had a payoff at the end, and a tease for the next one. Not a bad formula... thats how comics used to be written. Its awful formulaic though.. no one would buy that I'm sure.

I know my jabs seem bitter, but no one take offense.. unless you currently edit one of the books in question.. then yeah.. its aimed at you. :D
I don't know which is taking longer.. Kevin Smith finishing Black Cat/Spiderman or Gotham Knights to tie up HUSH. Its like watching two turtles take a coffee break three miles from the finish line during what has become a 2 year race. I know I bitch a lot, but I'm American.. it's what we do well.

[Corrina]

I want a story to have the basic parts of a story that I teach my students that ALL stories should have. PROLOGUE, RISING ACTION, CLIMAX, FALLING ACTION, and CONCLUSION. Batman seems to be continually in rising action, but climaxes are fuzzy and conclusions are difficult to find with a magnifying glass.

No! Don't teach them to write PROLOGUES.

Prologues are evil and they'll go to hell.

I hates prologues.

As you were. :)

[Ringslinger76]

Ahh.. nothing like a qoute from a great writer/editor to aid my point. Take it away Dennis O'Neil...

"In the eighties, some comic book writers "deconstructed" heroism by showing the good guys to be unpleasant, greedy, lascivious--traits many readers found titillating, especially when they were grafted onto heroes from earlier eras. Those stories had some immediate shock value--they certainly got the audience's attention-- but, over time, deconstruction is a very limiting narrative strategy. Where do you go, once you've shown your hero to be a creep? You've given readers no one to admire, to root for, no one to identify with (unless they're the kind of readers you don't want to meet); eventually, they'll tire of someone who, in real life, they'd cross the street to avoid." (O'Neil p.60)

This is from The DC Comics Guide to Writing Comics by Mr. O'Neil. I obtained this excerpt from the chapter on characterization. Ironic that his assertion fits so unfortunately well upon one of the characters that he truly made a lasting echo with.

As far as lightening his books up a tad...
http://www.silverbulletcomicbooks.com/busted/113027406495618.htm
He also says very complimentary things about Gail.

[Alex Dragon]

David Goyer and Christopher Nolan basically used the 1980 Denny O'Neil template of Batman for "Batman Begins."

If it's so outdated, why was it a commercial and critical success?

Oh, for many reasons....First and obvious being a film is not a comic. Did DC do an adaptation of the movie? If they did was the comic anywhere as well recieved as the film? I don't think I've heard one person singing any high praises on the adaptation. Because when it became a comic it didn't work as well. Particularly to an audience who've read plenty of Batman stories before. Batman begins was a stand alone film with an audience who for the most part don't read comics.
I thought SKY HIGH was a fun little movie but would it make for a successful comic if a comic were done the exact same way? Those film concepts might seem new and perhaps fresh to an audience not versed in the genre but to people who've expect and want something edgier after awhile.

Denny's Batman was mostly a loner and didn't have as big a cast to interact with and the stories weren't as character driven as the stories today. In the movie it was mostly about Batman and while it was character driven Denny's story(ies) was a good templet to work from because it was during a less complicated Batman. And while I think Denny's was great I don't know if they'd be as well recieved today. Plus I think overall the Batman of that time wasn't as interesting and added the type of character dynamic the current one does. Nowadays Batman is an important driving force in adding tension, intensity, and drama to books like JLA, IDENTITY CRISIS, BATMAN/SUPERMAN, etc.. I love that in I.C. that the other JLAers didn't want to tell Superman what they did because they were ashamed of it and feared losing his respect. They didn't want to tell Batman because they were afraid of him more than anything. That kind of thing adds an interesting element to the stories you'd never get if you kept Batman like Denny's version.

Just because what No