THE TRINITY: Moral choices, ethical division & killing *SPOILERS*

[cletus510]

As the thread suggests, you shouldn't be reading this if you haven't read WW 219 or OMAC 4.




As we saw at the end of WW 219, Diana kills Max to release Superman from his control. I think I'm in the majority by saying it was a necessary action. She exhausted other methods and saw this as the only option left. With Superman under Lord's control, no one was safe. And he said he would never give up unless he were killed. This isn't out of character for Diana, who, as an Amazonian warrior, will and has killed enemies.

But the poll goes beyond whether or not she did the right thing. What bothers me is that her action will divide the JLA. Can any of the other superheroes really be outraged by it so much that it creates a tension that leads to a major falling out? Would they argue that she should have just let him go free and let Superman kill her? I'll be disappointed if they build the tension on this premise. If they wanted to do so, they should have made Diana's action slightly less warranted and questionable.

[pureclint]

Well I voted for "Yes, but I can see how." I do think you need a option worded more like "Yes, and it should open some intersting stories."

I really hope that when the JLA confronts her about this they rememeber that THEY were not there and should not judge just the action but the circumstance.

[tricksterpup]

Not just that, for the Blue Beetle, may he now finally rest in peace.

[chrisew]

As the thread suggests, you shouldn't be reading this if you haven't read WW 219 or OMAC 4.




As we saw at the end of WW 219, Diana kills Max to release Superman from his control. I think I'm in the majority by saying it was a necessary action. She exhausted other methods and saw this as the only option left. With Superman under Lord's control, no one was safe. And he said he would never give up unless he were killed. This isn't out of character for Diana, who, as an Amazonian warrior, will and has killed enemies.

But the poll goes beyond whether or not she did the right thing. What bothers me is that her action will divide the JLA. Can any of the other superheroes really be outraged by it so much that it creates a tension that leads to a major falling out? Would they argue that she should have just let him go free and let Superman kill her? I'll be disappointed if they build the tension on this premise. If they wanted to do so, they should have made Diana's action slightly less warranted and questionable.

I initially didn't see the big deal in her action as well. However, didn't the story establish that as long as she kept Lord bound by her lasso he couldn't control Superman? From the standpoint of what her options were, she at the least had the option of keeping him bound until everyone could discuss how to handle the situation.

So, even though I'm not sad to see Lord go, I surprised myself and voted that she shouldn't have done it -- at least not yet.

Plus, killing him seems to have set a lot of bad stuff in motion in terms of OMAC and Checkmate, so it may turn out to be a major blunder on her part. I can imagine Batman being upset about not being given the chance to queston Lord on the extent of OMAC and Brother I's infiltration of the superhero community.

[CjP]

I initially didn't see the big deal in her action as well. However, didn't the story establish that as long as she kept Lord bound by her lasso he couldn't control Superman? From the standpoint of what her options were, she at the least had the option of keeping him bound until everyone could discuss how to handle the situation.

So, even though I'm not sad to see Lord go, I surprised myself and voted that she shouldn't have done it -- at least not yet.

Plus, killing him seems to have set a lot of bad stuff in motion in terms of OMAC and Checkmate, so it may turn out to be a major blunder on her part. I can imagine Batman being upset about not being given the chance to queston Lord on the extent of OMAC and Brother I's infiltration of the superhero community.

It does open some interesting possibilities though. Dark Knight as Black King? That could be... fun.

[ForEverAncien]

Methinks, the subject title should have been "Did Diana do the proper thing/action?"

Implying it was a 'right thing", is like saying, was it wrong to take out Max...and honestly, she got played by him, showing before OMAC, the visual 'final' lesson on why, those with superpowers, are truly a danger to humanity, and using Diana's warrior side to do it.


I would bet, that over the years of using that power, it was slowly killing him.

Possibility, he was dying, so, to go out on a bang, why not orchestrate the one person, who will not bat an eye in doing it (killing him).

He (Max) knew her profile, for a long time.

The vote will be yes...also, on Diana's action.

Diana and everyone else, got played, using Bruce's software and hardware, and his mindset to boot.

If anyone told me in the world, that they will keep doing what they have been doing with someone, against their wishes, and it is causing people to get hurt, that I know personally.

Where is the biggest underwater trench on the Earth?

That is just me, and a lot of people, know me as a nice guy.

[Tom]

I initially didn't see the big deal in her action as well. However, didn't the story establish that as long as she kept Lord bound by her lasso he couldn't control Superman? From the standpoint of what her options were, she at the least had the option of keeping him bound until everyone could discuss how to handle the situation.
She can't control people with her lasso. SHe can only get them to see and state the truth. Max was bound in the lasso and she twice asked him to relinquish control. Twice he refused before finally relenting. I don't know why he did but the lasso wasn't forcing him to.

[Tom]

But the poll goes beyond whether or not she did the right thing. What bothers me is that her action will divide the JLA. Can any of the other superheroes really be outraged by it so much that it creates a tension that leads to a major falling out? Would they argue that she should have just let him go free and let Superman kill her? I'll be disappointed if they build the tension on this premise. If they wanted to do so, they should have made Diana's action slightly less warranted and questionable.
The JLA has had a really crappy couple of months. Sue's death, the revelation of the mindwipes, Beetle's death, Superman attempting to kill Batman in the Watchtower and now Diana killing Max Lord. If the League falls apart, it won't be solely from Diana's actions.

[tjarvis]

Put me in the no category. She had other options. It wouldn't be that hard for her to knock somebody like Max Lord out.

After that, the JLA have many creative ways in which to neutralize someone like Max Lord. Their the transporter feed back loop, the Phantom Zone, a Manchester Black style lobotomy, or simply fixing the guy with a power neutralizer.

The reality is that Diana did what was natural to her, but she lives in a world that has progressed beyond such actions.

[tricksterpup]

The JLA has had a really crappy couple of months. Sue's death, the revelation of the mindwipes, Beetle's death, Superman attempting to kill Batman in the Watchtower and now Diana killing Max Lord. If the League falls apart, it won't be solely from Diana's actions.

Tom,
I think you are actually hitting on to something here. I am sure after this is all done and over we will see a league possibly similar to Giffen's and Dematis's Run. I do not mean a comedy but a league with out all the members in the big 7 in it.
Out of all of them, i still picture Wally being part of the team.
Maybe the glue to keep the team together? I foresee Green Arrow pulling in a new team or keeping what is left there. As he stated in the JLU, there will always be a need of the Justice League.

[Ruthless_Pryde]

She can't control people with her lasso. SHe can only get them to see and state the truth. Max was bound in the lasso and she twice asked him to relinquish control. Twice he refused before finally relenting. I don't know why he did but the lasso wasn't forcing him to.

Max Let Supes go because, as he told her earlier, he would just be back later. She couldn't knock him out, because he would just wake up again. There have been some other options mentioned, but most seem like as bad a skilling someone. She did the right thing in breaking his neck, Anything other than his death has to many varibales involved. Transport loop could have a malfunction, power dampner may not work permantely, holding him in the lasso indefinately, wouldn't work b/c he still had control over Supes anyway.

I am all for neck snapping. You don't let Supes go rogue and just leave it at that. If you don't put Max down then you may have to out Superman down.

Anyway, I believe that when these "heroes" don't whack somebody, then they are responsible for anything that they the bad guy does. Honestly, Batmna is responsible for alomst every one that Joker has killed, and likewise for the res of the heroes.

That's just my take.

[cletus510]

Implying it was a 'right thing", is like saying, was it wrong to take out Max...and honestly, she got played by him, showing before OMAC, the visual 'final' lesson on why, those with superpowers, are truly a danger to humanity, and using Diana's warrior side to do it.
I don't agree (if that's what Max really has up his sleave). How can a villainous Max claim they are dangerous to humanity by Diana's slaying of him? It's like someone saying he thinks cops are dangerous for society, proceeds to kill off some cops, and then holds others hostage. If a policeman then used lethal force to kill that man before he could hurt the others, would we be saying, "Damn, he was right: police ARE a danger to society"?

On a more general note, I'm growing a bit weary of this stigma that "superheroes can never kill." While it is an essential, and maybe wonderful, attribute of some characters (like Batman), it annoys me that it has become the defining morality of a superhero. (Thank god for Wonder Woman.) Besides, it only becomes a real issue when they kill some big-name villain. We don't cry foul when any of our superheroes slay thousands of nameless invading aliens.

I would bet, that over the years of using that power, it was slowly killing him.

Possibility, he was dying, so, to go out on a bang, why not orchestrate the one person, who will not bat an eye in doing it (killing him).
Good point. I was a little hesitant to state my opinion at this moment. We don't know how it will play out with the JLA. Maybe his killing is not what breaks the Trinity apart. I agree with a lot of the other posters in other threads who think Max is up to something. Maybe it is that other something that becomes the divisive issue. I just hope it isn't as simple as, "You killed Maxwell Lord? Now I got major problems with you!"

From the standpoint of what her options were, she at the least had the option of keeping him bound until everyone could discuss how to handle the situation.
True. However, Rucka was probably trying to avoid another "Dr. Light" scenario, where the JL gathers as jury and executioners (or lobotomizers) of a captured villain. And I don't know if that is scarier and worse: having a group of superbeings deciding who dies and who doesn't. That would really be playing into Max's hand. I prefer the idea that Diana just slayed a most dangerous enemy in the heat of battle as a warrior protecting the world, not as a superior being coldly distributing her own verdicts and executions.

[Headhunter]

Sometimes, you gotta do what you gotta do...how can the JLA be upset, regardless of their personal beliefs, given the circumstances she was in?

Would Batman (who's the only one who has never intentionally killed, to my knowledge) really be happier if Superman was used to tear the world apart?

[xnef1025]

It was a righteous kill, but others in the League aren't gonna think so. She may have been able to try things another way if the situation had been a bit different, but with a psychotic psychic with a hate on for metas and his mind on the button of the deadliest weapon on the planet, a longer, more detailed interrogation was somewhat out of the question, I think.

I think Max planned for his death, but didn't expect it. If Diana had tried to ask, "Is killing you the only way?" Max probably would have reasserted his control on Supes before she finished the question. He was gambling and was probably about 75% sure she wouldn't do it. After all, OMACs would have no problem breaking him out of whatever imprisonment they tried to place him in, and he'd be free to try again. Too bad for Max it seems it just may have been WW's 'time of the month' :p

[Bored at 3:00AM]

As I see it, she only had two viable options

A) Incapacitate Max and keep him sedated indefinitely until someone can figure out a way to undo what he's done to Supes' mind.

PROS: The immediate threat is neutralized for the time being.

CONS: There's a strong possibility that Max, no matter how deeply sedated he is, could wake up again, or, more likely, be woken up by a villain, and have Supes do something even worse, like murder billions.

B) Kill Max and end the problem completely.

PROS: The threat is eliminated.

CONS: Sacrificing a single human life in order to protect billions.

Does anyone has any other viable alternatives that I'm missing?

[Eliseu Gouveia]

Couldn´t she just K.O. him(thus breaking his mental grip over Supes), then have Green Lantern dump him in an far, undisclosed unhabited planet to soak his probs for lthe rest of his ife?

[Bored at 3:00AM]

Put me in the no category. She had other options. It wouldn't be that hard for her to knock somebody like Max Lord out.

After that, the JLA have many creative ways in which to neutralize someone like Max Lord. Their the transporter feed back loop, .

Which Doomsday escaped from when they tried it on him. Only Doomsday couldn't incinerate billions from orbit like a Max-controlled Superman could.

the Phantom Zone,.

Which is also the home of the supervillain Prometheus, who can come and go as he pleases with his funky little key. Hooking him and Max up might not be the best idea. Also General Zod is floating around in there someplace. Giving him access to a man who can control the Son of Jor-El might not be very smart either.


a Manchester Black style lobotomy, ,.

Which didn't actually work, Manchester Black came back a few months later meaner and more pissed off than before and caused even more damage.


or simply fixing the guy with a power neutralizer.,.

And where might the JLA find this power neutralizer? I wasn't aware they had one. And what's to stop Luthor or Brainiac from inventing a power reactivator?


The reality is that Diana did what was natural to her, but she lives in a world that has progressed beyond such actions.

And if you can give me a single viable alternative to killing Max, I'd believe you.

She had a guy with nearly complete control of one of the most powerful and dangerous beings on the planet and very little margin for error in finding a solution. Was killing him a righteous or heroic thing to do? I dunno. Was it the only viable option she had available to her? I think so.

[Bored at 3:00AM]

Couldn´t she just K.O. him(thus breaking his mental grip over Supes), then have Green Lantern dump him in an far, undisclosed unhabited planet to soak his probs for lthe rest of his ife?

No matter how far away they sent him, he could also come back again to have Superman dropkick a small country into extinction.

[Calamas]

Does anyone has any other viable alternatives that I'm missing?
Not an alternative. An Element. Namely, time.

Superman was free, they were not under attack, and Max was neutralized. The decision did not have to be made then and there. Maybe there was no viable alternative. But maybe there was one, too, as yet unthought of. Wonder Woman’s action prevented that possibility. If they were still in battle, if Superman was still under Max’s control, she was justified. Certainly if an OMAC materialize in front of them, it becomes necessary to kill Max immediately. But as long as there was time, there was a chance. Isn’t that what heroes do, risk everything to find a just answer? How many times have we seen “One last chance” gasped? Wonder Woman did not even look for that last chance. If everything stands as that issue read, this was murder.

[Bored at 3:00AM]

Not an alternative. An Element. Namely, time.

Superman was free, they were not under attack, and Max was neutralized. The decision did not have to be made then and there. Maybe there was no viable alternative. But maybe there was one, too, as yet unthought of. Wonder Woman’s action prevented that possibility. If they were still in battle, if Superman was still under Max’s control, she was justified. Certainly if an OMAC materialize in front of them, it becomes necessary to kill Max immediately. But as long as there was time, there was a chance. Isn’t that what heroes do, risk everything to find a just answer? How many times have we seen “One last chance” gasped? Wonder Woman did not even look for that last chance. If everything stands as that issue read, this was murder.

Yes, it was murder, but a justified one. Its very easy to say Wonder Woman should have waited to find another alternative so everything could work out just fine without anybody getting killed. However, the story that I read made it pretty clear that not only had Wonder Woman considered every alternative but that it was only a matter of time before Max made Superman do something so devestating that would have killed thousands or even millions.

In a situation that dire, I don't think I can begrudge anyone for making that decision.

[davids]

first remember about that whole doctor light thing, the rape and the mind wipe? Diana said they should have killed the monster.

Max Lord raped superman, not physicly, but mentaly, he was hurting a friend touring him. A man her best friend, a comrade in arms and dare i say it, some wee in the back of her mind one day her lover [Lois can not live for ever]

Here was a creature who was not only hurting this man who was so important to her but promising to use him to kill the woman he loves so much[Lois].
If Wonder woman did not have such a strong moral code she might have been tempted to see the woman who beat her pass on. But she would not allow that any more than becoming a home wreaker.

Of couse Lord had to go. It's not like she didn't do this before. When Poseiden's son killed a boat load of ten year old wondergirl scouts, she cut his head off.

In action comics when she and Clark was transported to vahalla, she was there no more then a few moments when she attacked a Demon.

Superman,"You killed it?"

Diana, "What else was I going to do with it?"
and for the next thousand years she led troops and slaughted the enemy. while superman fought at her side, but still refusing to kill. Even a demon!

Remember the Amazons were charged by the female gods to spread peace and love in the world. But they are warriors, who survive in man's world by being able to fight.

[batman in KC about the amazons,"spread peace and love, but don't be afraid to get your hands dirty if it is not done!"] Just before Wonder Woman tried driving her sword into his chest.

So the trinity will be broken and when the DC universe jumps a head a year we will discover the price for that break up!

Perhaps the real question is what will bring the yhree of them back together again? That might be the real story?

[Calybos]

Killing is always crossing a line... and yes, there are ALWAYS alternatives.

Who died and made Diana supreme justice and executioner? Yes, I know her culture and upbringing lead her to view this as a righteous action... but you didn't ask what she thought of it. You asked what we thought. And I think she made a mistake that lowers her standing as a hero.

I know the writer went to considerable lengths to portray it as a no-win situation for dramatic effect, i.e., Max promising (and definitely telling the TRUTH!) that he would definitely take control of Superman again and cause more death. But nothing was stopping her and Supes from knocking Max out and turning him over to the authorities complete with statements and precautions about how to block or neutralize his power.

Diana didn't think there was time for that, and I understand that her mindset doesn't necessarily see this action as evil anyway. But I do.

[pureclint]

Yes, it was murder, but a justified one.


It is not murder but Justifiable Homicide, there is a difference.

[Bored at 3:00AM]

But nothing was stopping her and Supes from knocking Max out and turning him over to the authorities complete with statements and precautions about how to block or neutralize his power.


And what exactly those statements and precautions would be?

And how are they supposed to deal with the legions of badguys all trying to free Max so they can have Superman be their lackey?

This is not the usual case of defeating the super-villain, locking him away and repeating this process again and again whenever he escapes. This is a guy who can have Superman kill billions with a thought.

[Bored at 3:00AM]

It is not murder but Justifiable Homicide, there is a difference.

My bad. Justifiable homicide. Thank you councellor.

[Xero Kaiser]

Killing is always crossing a line... and yes, there are ALWAYS alternatives.

Who died and made Diana supreme justice and executioner? Yes, I know her culture and upbringing lead her to view this as a righteous action... but you didn't ask what she thought of it. You asked what we thought. And I think she made a mistake that lowers her standing as a hero.

I know the writer went to considerable lengths to portray it as a no-win situation for dramatic effect, i.e., Max promising (and definitely telling the TRUTH!) that he would definitely take control of Superman again and cause more death. But nothing was stopping her and Supes from knocking Max out and turning him over to the authorities complete with statements and precautions about how to block or neutralize his power.

Diana didn't think there was time for that, and I understand that her mindset doesn't necessarily see this action as evil anyway. But I do.

would you be more comfortable if superman went nuts and killed everyone? hey, at least then Wonderwoman can walk among the ashes of a now-dead earth and say, "huh...well...at least my hands are clean". because that's all that matters in the end.

give me a break, what "statements and precautions" are there? what good is locking max lord up gonna do? you seriously think playing with fire is the better solution? knowing that at any time, max could regain control over superman? congratulations, now everybody's dead.

Justice League: "Greetings, citizens of earth. It may interest you to know that superman may suddenly go insane and kill you all. but don't worry! the man responible for this is in jail and we're this close to being pretty sure he can't set superman off. and arkham promised us that this is one villian who won't escape. please ignore the fact that Max lord, apparently, doesn't need to be anywhere near superman to control him. still, you may want to have your affairs in order all the same. just giving you a head up, enjoy your weekend

[Tom]

Tom,
I think you are actually hitting on to something here. I am sure after this is all done and over we will see a league possibly similar to Giffen's and Dematis's Run. I do not mean a comedy but a league with out all the members in the big 7 in it.
Out of all of them, i still picture Wally being part of the team.
Maybe the glue to keep the team together? I foresee Green Arrow pulling in a new team or keeping what is left there. As he stated in the JLU, there will always be a need of the Justice League.
Looks like you're right:

http://www.newsarama.com/dcnew/Oct05/JLA-Cv120-copy.jpg

Can't say I'm super-crazy about that lineup but then again, I have no reason to believe that that's the final lineup.

[K'Nort]

I like Barda and Scott. But who is that on the far left?

[Tom]

I like Barda and Scott. But who is that on the far left?
Zauriel, it looks like.

[K'Nort]

Zauriel, it looks like.

Ooooh. Better than Faith.


And Barda-wise, I particularly loved the issue where they go undercover to get the White Martian masquerading as Bruce Wayne. The gag with the dress. It would be nice to see fun bits again.

[tricksterpup]

Looks like you're right:

http://www.newsarama.com/dcnew/Oct05/JLA-Cv120-copy.jpg

Can't say I'm super-crazy about that lineup but then again, I have no reason to believe that that's the final lineup.

Now lets look at this a little deeper,
1. on the left, I think that might be Faith.
2. Plastic Man, where else is he gonna go. ;) I would rather see Ralph though but after all that has happened, I picture him retiring after this.
3. Batman in the back ground, is he behind the team or has he turned his back and walking away? I am fine with that, he belongs solo anyway.
4. And 2 Green Lanterns? A little extreme, I would rather see one, and it be Guy Gardner. After all he is the one true green lantern. ;)
5. the return of Barda and scott gets kudos from me. I am happy about this. I do hope Oberion is with them.

But I would also like to see the return of Booster to the fore front of the JLA and a few of the other characters from Giffen's run.

[Kid Seven]

The feest below Captain Marvel? I'm fairly certain that's Zauriel, the angel introduced during Morrison's run. I'm glad that writers can still find a purpose for him. I really enjoyed the character and was afraid he was going to get completetly written out after Hawkman came back.

[K'Nort]

But I would also like to see the return of Booster to the fore front of the JLA and a few of the other characters from Giffen's run.

Maybe they're doing their own thing with J'Onn again? I'm nervous about not seeing him.

[Calamas]

After reading the Rucka interview that Yoda linked in the OMAC thread--

http://www.newsarama.com/dcnew/countdown/SpoilerWW219.html

--I can now buy Justifiable Homicide. I still think that time variable should not be present, but now I better understand Rucka’s thinking. He just couldn’t get his “thunderbolt ending” on the last panel of the last page if he structured it any other way.

[Calybos]

One option that everyone's overlooked so far: Superman could LEAVE. Take off from Earth and go far, far away to avoid Max's control while the authorities are dealing with him. Or lock himself in a kryptonite cage. Or chew on some gold kryptonite. Or have Zatanna de-power him. Or have J'onn keep HIM unconscious. Or... (etc., etc.).

Or, of course, you could simply keep Max unconscious while the authorities deal with him, as already mentioned. And even if they choose the death penalty, it's a better alternative than WW taking the law into her own hands.

[ForEverAncien]

Folks, Max knows the human mind a bit too well...they would have to keep his mouth silent for a lonnnnng time, and it takes one simple mistake to unbind that mouth guard restraint...and it starts again.

Diana wieghed...and acted. As it has been pointed beforehanded, it is not first time she has done this, nor it shall be the last.

[ForEverAncien]

One option that everyone's overlooked so far: Superman could LEAVE. Take off from Earth and go far, far away to avoid Max's control while the authorities are dealing with him. Or lock himself in a kryptonite cage. Or chew on some gold kryptonite. Or have Zatanna de-power him. Or have J'onn keep HIM unconscious. Or... (etc., etc.).

Or, of course, you could simply keep Max unconscious while the authorities deal with him, as already mentioned. And even if they choose the death penalty, it's a better alternative than WW taking the law into her own hands.

And to go insane, with the loneliness in space, no thanks.

[Yoda]

One option that everyone's overlooked so far: Superman could LEAVE. Take off from Earth and go far, far away to avoid Max's control while the authorities are dealing with him. Or lock himself in a kryptonite cage. Or chew on some gold kryptonite. Or have Zatanna de-power him. Or have J'onn keep HIM unconscious. Or... (etc., etc.).

Or, of course, you could simply keep Max unconscious while the authorities deal with him, as already mentioned. And even if they choose the death penalty, it's a better alternative than WW taking the law into her own hands.

Leave him in the custody of which authorities? The Swiss?! Like Mr. Orr said over in Superman, 80% of the worlds population worked for Checkmate in one way or another. A guard at the Slab was an OMAC. I doubt there was any "authority" in the DCU that would have held onto Max.

As for Superman exiling himself, how is that a good solution? What were the limits of Max's control - it was already shown that he could activate Superman from great distances. He took control of Superman when he was on the Moon. Short of fully lobtimizing Max into a veggie what would stop him from passing his knowledge of controling Superman onto someone else.

And Rucka's right, how is keeping him in a coma forever or turning him into a vegtible any better than killing him? For all intents and purposes its the same thing, it just lets you fool yourself into thinking otherwise.

Like had already been said, maybe in the real world those alternatives would have been a better choice. In the DCU they would have just delayed the inevitable and cost many lives when Max or someone else figured out how to get around the fix.

[pureclint]

One option that everyone's overlooked so far: Superman could LEAVE. Take off from Earth and go far, far away to avoid Max's control while the authorities are dealing with him. Or lock himself in a kryptonite cage. Or chew on some gold kryptonite. Or have Zatanna de-power him. Or have J'onn keep HIM unconscious. Or... (etc., etc.).

Or, of course, you could simply keep Max unconscious while the authorities deal with him, as already mentioned. And even if they choose the death penalty, it's a better alternative than WW taking the law into her own hands.

So we should punish Superman for some one elses actions? How does that make sense? Punish the criminal not the victim please.

Also, remember Max did not have to be near superman or even talk to him to make him act all crazy, MAx was on earth and Superman was near the Sun still in kill mode.

And keeping Max in a coma until they kill him or until he dies is a better option? Also, you can kill people and have it not be a illegal act, therefor you are not taking the law into your own hands, ie Justifiable Homicide.

[alschroeder]

One option that everyone's overlooked so far: Superman could LEAVE. Take off from Earth and go far, far away to avoid Max's control while the authorities are dealing with him. Or lock himself in a kryptonite cage. Or chew on some gold kryptonite. Or have Zatanna de-power him. Or have J'onn keep HIM unconscious. Or... (etc., etc.).

Or, of course, you could simply keep Max unconscious while the authorities deal with him, as already mentioned. And even if they choose the death penalty, it's a better alternative than WW taking the law into her own hands.

Everybody neglects another danger Max posed.
He knew everybody's identities.
IF Superman left or was de-powered, Lois would still be prey for every enemy Superman HAS. Same logic to all the other heroes Lord had details on.---Al

[Donald Stone]

I have to go with 'Diana did the right thing'. She had to act quickly, and she did ask him, while he was under the power of the lasso, how to stop him. All he said was 'Kill me', so as far as she knew that was the only way to stop him.

[SUPERECWFAN1]

I would have perfered to see Booster get the Kill on Mac. That way he can say It: " This Is for Ted you son of a bitch. "


Instead they went with Wonder Woman. She did the right thing. I don't condomn seeing all the heroes just up and kill the villians , but she had no choice. Max was going to wipe everyone out with Superman. He was on a mission to hurt and kill the heroes and whoever was close to them.


Max did become a full robot at one point. So who's to say that he's actually bitten the dust for real ? Hew could have downloaded his mind and whats left Into an OMAC and hopefully....Booster gets that kill.

[DMike]

I fully believe she did the right thing, but if we're looking for alternatives, there's always one alternative to killing Max: the Zatanna treatment.

No, seriously. Bring all the mindwipe stuff full circle, have Diana use her superspeed to get Zee over there, and convince Fishnet Girl to get all "esare sih elohw dnim yltnenamrep" to stop Lord from ever using his mindpowers again. Hell, if Max is really still a robot after all then it's not even unethical.

A mindwipe turned out to be the reason for Bruce making Brother I for Max to later steal and hurt people with, a mindwipe to stop its new keeper from hurting anyone else again. Full circle.

[pureclint]

I fully believe she did the right thing, but if we're looking for alternatives, there's always one alternative to killing Max: the Zatanna treatment.

No, seriously. Bring all the mindwipe stuff full circle, have Diana use her superspeed to get Zee over there, and convince Fishnet Girl to get all "esare sih elohw dnim yltnenamrep" to stop Lord from ever using his mindpowers again. Hell, if Max is really still a robot after all then it's not even unethical.

A mindwipe turned out to be the reason for Bruce making Brother I for Max to later steal and hurt people with, a mindwipe to stop its new keeper from hurting anyone else again. Full circle.

While it would have been a good idea, she could not outrun Superman.

I do not think Max is a Robot, he was a pseudo techno-organic guy there for a while according to the bios I have read but he no longer is. Rucka has said in the recent Newsarama interview he is toast. it is the reason the corpse is lying there the whole issue of OMAC 4 to show us he is. Hell the Brother I even says he is gone and it is wired into every tech on earth.

[aeastwic]

This is an interesting discussion. Most people are "for" what she did and most of the arguments boil down to self-defense, either for herself or for the world (which could have been toasted by Max controlled Superman).

There really was no choice. Either kill Max or Superman, and why should Superman be punished for something not his fault, even if WW could kill him?
Anyone reading comics knows that sometime, somehow villians escape. He would have gotten out. And since he doesn't have to be physically near Supes to do this, it's too great a risk.

Considering the power of the people in the JLA, they shouldn't be squemish about this. How many times have they attacked an enemy, not knowing how strong they are. They could easily accidentally overpower someone and kill them. The fact that they are very moral people makes them not to try and deliberately kill anyone, but someone is going to get toasted because of this.

I think the JLA member who will be most affected by this is Superman. Not necessarily because she killed someone, but because he won't feel that killing someone because of him isn't worth it. Clark doesn't put himself in the center of his universe and he might think less of Diana for doing this, because she killed someone because of him.

[Peter]

No, I'm firmly in the camp of, "Diana did the wrong thing."

Understandable, certainly, given a decision made in the heat of battle. But definitely, no, that was the wrong thing to do.

For a start, Wonder Woman killing an opponent is not really a problem. She prefers peace, certainly -- and would find killing a human to be awful -- but she's a warrior and an Amazon. Killing an opponent is not out of the picture entirely.

But killing somebody tied up (in unbreakable bonds, no less) lying defeated on his knees before her? That's execution, and no, that was wrong.

To say nothing of the "no other options" argument, which is ridiculous. The DCU has had to deal with super-powerful-telepaths before. I mean they kept Manchester Black restrained for a significant amount of time. Diana knows how many dozens of forms of martial arts -- knocking him out or somehow rendering him incapacitated or unconscious would've been the easiest thing in the world for somebody with her skill. To say that she couldn't have done either of those is wholly false.

And as for keeping him live -- as Pendaran pointed out on the Rumbles Board, with the new gods, the Spectre (although he's not actually answering his phone currently), all the powerful magicians/tech-builders that the JLA have on speed-dial -- to say absolutely nothing of the Phantom Zone Projector, which is how they dealt with a race of evil telepaths -- to seriously argue that killing him was Diana's only option is ridiculous.

That kind of logic brings us there --

"And what's to prevent Grodd or Hector Hammond or Psimon or someone like that from simply going in and utilizing the routines Max has already implanted in Superman, the next time they use their powers on him?

Obviously, for everyone's safety, the only solution is to kill Superman now."

-- the logic Max was using to argue for the end of all metahumans.

[Yoda]

To say nothing of the "no other options" argument, which is ridiculous. The DCU has had to deal with super-powerful-telepaths before. I mean they kept Manchester Black restrained for a significant amount of time. Diana knows how many dozens of forms of martial arts -- knocking him out or somehow rendering him incapacitated or unconscious would've been the easiest thing in the world for somebody with her skill. To say that she couldn't have done either of those is wholly false.

And as for keeping him live -- as Pendaran pointed out on the Rumbles Board, with the new gods, the Spectre (although he's not actually answering his phone currently), all the powerful magicians/tech-builders that the JLA have on speed-dial -- to say absolutely nothing of the Phantom Zone Projector, which is how they dealt with a race of evil telepaths -- to seriously argue that killing him was Diana's only option is ridiculous.

That kind of logic brings us there --

"And what's to prevent Grodd or Hector Hammond or Psimon or someone like that from simply going in and utilizing the routines Max has already implanted in Superman, the next time they use their powers on him?

Obviously, for everyone's safety, the only solution is to kill Superman now."

-- the logic Max was using to argue for the end of all metahumans.

But they always escape. Manchester Black escaped and got his powers back. The White Martians escaped and got their powers back. Dr. Light got his mind back. Doomsday was released from the teleportation prison. The Phantom Zone isn't fool proof. Diana knows this.

For all intents and purposes it appears that Max was the only person capable of using Superman in this way. All it takes is a second for Max to flip Superman out. And he can do it from great distances. Superman was on the Moon and he did it. He doesnt even appear to have to continue to control him, only flip the switch and he's off on a rampage.

Sure it wasn't her only option. But it was the only option that would guarntee that it wouldn't happen again. She could have knocked him out, she could have let him go. But she wanted to make sure this never happened again. All the soltuions you list are temporary at best.

[Peter]

For all intents and purposes it appears that Max was the only person capable of using Superman in this way. All it takes is a second for Max to flip Superman out. And he can do it from great distances. Superman was on the Moon and he did it. He doesnt even appear to have to continue to control him, only flip the switch and he's off on a rampage.

And going by the logic that it was best to kill Max, it's obviously best to kill Superman, so as to "make sure this never happened again."

Killing Max was "Justice Lord" territory, pure and simple.

[tjarvis]

The one person who is not being considered in this debate ironically, is Superman himself. As somebody mentioned, he would not have approved of what Diana did, and I think we're going to see the fall out because of that. If it meant stopping Max without killing him, Clark would have gone into voluntarily exile. In fact, Clark would have done anything in order to prevent Max from dying. It's the one time that Clark killed that led to the psychotic break that Max took advantage of to manipulate him.

Everybody always says remember the victim, but in this case the victim would have done everything he could to prevent Max's death.

[Yoda]

And going by the logic that it was best to kill Max, it's obviously best to kill Superman, so as to "make sure this never happened again."

Killing Max was "Justice Lord" territory, pure and simple.

Killing the innocent party is the superior option than killing the guilty? Explain that one to me?

As far as we know Max was the only one who could do this to Superman. He was the only one who knew the way "in".

[JeffreyWKramer]

For all intents and purposes it appears that Max was the only person capable of using Superman in this way.

And you base this on what? Max Lord isn't the most powerful telepath on earth or anything like that. Upon what basis do you conclude that any other telepath couldn't use mental illusions and such to mimic Max's mind signature and take advantage of the programming Max put in place?

[JeffreyWKramer]

As far as we know Max was the only one who could do this to Superman. He was the only one who knew the way "in".

And again, upon what do you base this? Max has never demonstrated any telepathic abilities beyond those of any number of other folk in the DCU. If anything, his nosebleed problem suggests he's probably significantly less powerful than numerous other DC telepaths. He's demonstrated better planning ability and greater levels of ruthlessness, but that's it.

[Yoda]

And you base this on what? Max Lord isn't the most powerful telepath on earth or anything like that. Upon what basis do you conclude that any other telepath couldn't use mental illusions and such to mimic Max's mind signature and take advantage of the programming Max put in place?

He didn't just plant visions in Supermans head. He took years to build up these and work to subvert Superman's will building the scenarios into Superman's mind. What was done was "beyond simple telepathy" according to the Martian Manhunter. Manhunter couldn't even begin to fix it. Now that he's dead, who else would know how to activate these complex triggers? What evidence is there that Max shared his secrets with anyone else?

Also given Max's insane paranoia against every super powered person on the planet, and level of planning he put into this and evidence by the rest of OMAC it is not that far of a leap to think he would have taken steps to ensure no one else got to play with his toy.

Superman's death wasn't an option to Wonder Woman. I'm sure Superman would have rather she killed him than Max.

[Peter]

Killing the innocent party is the superior option than killing the guilty? Explain that one to me?

We're killing Max just in case he ever does it again.

Shouldn't we also kill Superman, you know, just in case he ever does it again?

In fact, let's kill *everybody*. No population means no crime. That's the logical end result of such an attitude.

I read "Action #775" the other day, and Superman would be thoroughly appalled and disgusted by that kind of attitide.

[Donald Stone]

For the folks who think Diana didn't need to kill Max, what else do you think she should have done?

[Peter]

He didn't just plant visions in Supermans head. He took years to build up these and work to subvert Superman's will building the scenarios into Superman's mind. What was done was "beyond simple telepathy" according to the Martian Manhunter. Manhunter couldn't even begin to fix it.

Which is another problem, albeit not one relating to Diana killing Max.

J'Onn can hold off a planet-sized monster capable of sending entire planets of gods into bloodlusted rages (Mageddon), but couldn't do a thing against the actions of a low-level telepath?

Right.

[Windbreaker]

Killing is always crossing a line... and yes, there are ALWAYS alternatives.
I understand that you don't want your heroes to kill, but that statement is naive, even in the context of comics. INACTION can lead to deaths, too.

If Diana took no action - that is, kept Max bound up for a while - then Supes would continue on his rampage. How do I know? Because Rucka tells us so right in the pages of the book! Unless Rucka had some invisible text explaining that the lasso no longer compels people to speak the truth.

How many metas can go toe to toe with Supes? Especially when he is fighting without restraint? (picturing Doomsday, etc.) Diana isn't going to let that happen. And because she made the right call, I will be purchasing her monthly book! :)

[Peter]

For the folks who think Diana didn't need to kill Max, what else do you think she should have done?

Both Diana and Kal can do laps of planet Earth in the blink of an eye.

Knock him out, then Phantom Zone imprisonment. At least until they come up with something else. An option totally doable for people with WW and Kal's skill/resources.

[JeffreyWKramer]

He didn't just plant visions in Supermans head. He took years to build up these and work to subvert Superman's will building the scenarios into Superman's mind. What was done was "beyond simple telepathy"
Yes, it was complex psychic manipulation, done over years of time, and connected up with Superman's preexisting mental quirks (the reason J'onn gave for not being able to dismantle it safely). But there's nothing about Max that says some other telepath couldn't have done the same thing, given opportunity and hubris to try it. And now that it's done, presumably the programming stays there.

Now that he's dead, who else would know how to activate these complex triggers?
Presumably any telepath who got inside Superman's head.

"Trigger" is a good term. It takes a skilled gunsmith to build a gun, but any idiot who can find the gun can pull the trigger. And powerful telepaths aren't exactly rare in the DCU.

[SUPERECWFAN1]

And again, upon what do you base this? Max has never demonstrated any telepathic abilities beyond those of any number of other folk in the DCU. If anything, his nosebleed problem suggests he's probably significantly less powerful than numerous other DC telepaths. He's demonstrated better planning ability and greater levels of ruthlessness, but that's it.


Thing Is could any of those telepaths actually get behind a Black Ops operation like Checkmate,build an army of OMAC assasions and then use your mind control at peak times to make sure you stay on top?


Could any of them do what a Maxwell Lord did? Get close enough to have files on everyone ? Thier powers,abilities and family ? No...they couldn't. They could try but Maxwell Lord was unique enough that even though he wasn't a grade A+ Telepath and villain , he could manipulate and get close. We saw It In the DCU.


His charactor was a schemer and manipulated people at times. Brainac Is to Into being a machine and advanced to even do what Lord has done. And Luther Is too busy wanting to beat Superman and be the 1# guy In Metropolis.

Say what you want....Lord was someone If you knocked him out , would have woke up....and started the ball rolling again. As were seeing In the current JLA Arc , Despero Is busy undoing all the mindwipes. So Imagine him waking up Lord If Diana did have him mindwiped,knocked out or whatever they would do.

[JeffreyWKramer]

Also given Max's insane paranoia against every super powered person on the planet, and level of planning he put into this and evidence by the rest of OMAC it is not that far of a leap to think he would have taken steps to ensure no one else got to play with his toy.
What steps? And how would that work? If Max can screw with Superman's mind and convince him that Batman is Darksied, what's to keep Hector Hammond from fooling Superman's mind into thinking he's Max Lord, and thus accessing the programming?

[Yoda]

We're killing Max just in case he ever does it again.

Shouldn't we also kill Superman, you know, just in case he ever does it again?

In fact, let's kill *everybody*. No population means no crime. That's the logical end result of such an attitude.

I read "Action #775" the other day, and Superman would be thoroughly appalled and disgusted by that kind of attitide.

This was the text book application of Diana's speech on Dr. Light. Taking over someones mind, subverting their will and using them as an instrument to hurt others is pretty much the most immoral thing you could do. Max lost the right to the same moral consideration that you give a member of humanity through those actions.

[JeffreyWKramer]

Thing Is could any of those telepaths actually get behind a Black Ops operation like Checkmate,build an army of OMAC assasions and then use your mind control at peak times to make sure you stay on top?

You're missing the point. No, probably none of them could do that. Most of them don't have the brains, the resources, the contacts, etc. But that's completely irrelevant to what happens in the future.

Now that Max has gone in and inserted this programming into Superman's brain - programming which can be detected by other telepaths, as J'onn demonstrated, and which cannot be removed without risking making Superman insane - it's there, and is potentially detectable and usable by any telepath who gets into Superman's mind. Grodd, Hammond, Psimon, Despero, etc.

[SUPERECWFAN1]

What steps? And how would that work? If Max can screw with Superman's mind and convince him that Batman is Darksied, what's to keep Hector Hammond from fooling Superman's mind into thinking he's Max Lord, and thus accessing the programming?


Max was using the Omac technology ( as well as what he learned from using Skeets) and was close to the heroes all that time. Hammond wasn't and Is In lock down. In fact I know Hammond had telepathic powers but I always thought he ran on a limited amount of power . That he would run out. ( Last I saw he was foreshadowed In a future GL arc)

[Peter]

This was the text book application of Diana's speech on Dr. Light. Taking over someones mind, subverting their will and using them as an instrument to hurt others is pretty much the most immoral thing you could do.

And as Batman and Superman show day after day after day, there's a line that you don't cross.

Max lost the right to the same moral consideration that you give a member of humanity through those actions.

Exactly. You treat him exactly the way he treated all the metas. And that moral high road just went up in smoke.

[SUPERECWFAN1]

You're missing the point. No, probably none of them could do that. Most of them don't have the brains, the resources, the contacts, etc. But that's completely irrelevant to what happens in the future.

Now that Max has gone in and inserted this programming into Superman's brain - programming which can be detected by other telepaths, as J'onn demonstrated, and which cannot be removed without risking making Superman insane - it's there, and is potentially detectable and usable by any telepath who gets into Superman's mind. Grodd, Hammond, Psimon, Despero, etc.


I'm thinking they may call Zatanna In to cover that from being picked up by other telepaths. To do a " clean mindwipe" of Superman. Thats what I'm thinking the JLA will do with Superman. So no one like Grodd,Hammond or Despero will pick up on It.


I got your response all wrong. I thought you saying someone else besides Max could have pulled this off. My mistake...sorry.

[Donald Stone]

Looking at the end, Diana has Max under the power of the lasso and says to him "Tell me how to free him from your control? "

He says "Kill me." She knows the lasso makes him tell the truth, so why wouldn't she think that killing him wasn't the only option?

http://img246.imageshack.us/img246/6061/job154ty5rq.th.jpg (http://img246.imageshack.us/my.php?image=job154ty5rq.jpg)

[JeffreyWKramer]

Max was using the Omac technology ( as well as what he learned from using Skeets) and was close to the heroes all that time. None of which has anything to do with the telepathic manipulation/reprogramming.


Hammond wasn't and Is In lock down.
Which means he doesn't know about this right now. But he - or some other telepath - will the next time one of them gets access to Superman's mind and takes a moment to look around in there.


In fact I know Hammond had telepathic powers but I always thought he ran on a limited amount of power . That he would run out.
And again... so what? The programming is there now. He doesn't have to rebuild it, he just has to pull the trigger.

It can take a long time to develop a new computer program, but I can activate it with a double-click of a mouse.

[Peter]

I understand that you don't want your heroes to kill, but that statement is naive, even in the context of comics.

Then I prefer my heroes naive, actually acting like heroes. YMMV.

[JeffreyWKramer]

I'm thinking they may call Zatanna In to cover that from being picked up by other telepaths. To do a " clean mindwipe" of Superman. Thats what I'm thinking the JLA will do with Superman. So no one like Grodd,Hammond or Despero will pick up on It.

Given how Light and Batman turned out, I'd think the Justice League won't be encouraging Zatanna to be doing any more mental programming. I also doubt any shielding she might be able to put in would be able to withstand the attention of a powerful telepath like Despero or Hector Hammond.

I got your response all wrong. I thought you saying someone else besides Max could have pulled this off. My mistake...sorry.
No problem. Glad we got that sorted out.

[Donald Stone]

Then I prefer my heroes naive, actually acting like heroes. YMMV.Diana is willing to kill, thats been show repeatedly for quite a while now. She doesn't like it, and avoids it as best she can, but she's a warrior, and sometimes you have no choice.

Much like Captain America.

[SUPERECWFAN1]

None of which has anything to do with the telepathic manipulation/reprogramming.

In OMAC 3# , Max used a Computer to take over Superman. To activate the mind programming.



Which means he doesn't know about this right now. But he - or some other telepath - will the next time one of them gets access to Superman's mind and takes a moment to look around in there.

They could. Yes...but I see them as I said In the next reply , using magic to keep the mind wipes on them.


And again... so what? The programming is there now. He doesn't have to rebuild it, he just has to pull the trigger.

It can take a long time to develop a new computer program, but I can activate it with a double-click of a mouse.


Hammond , Despero and others could. Thats what adds to this for now. Any of them could . But I can see the JLA having Zatanna wipe Clark's mind and theres no way Hammond,Despero and others would know. They supposedly went for years without learning of these mindwipes.

[Yoda]

And as Batman and Superman show day after day after day, there's a line that you don't cross.

For Batman & Superman there are no circumstances were they would take anothers life, even to save an innocent life. Thats one system of morals, and its one that many people find flaws with.

Exactly. You treat him exactly the way he treated all the metas. And that moral high road just went up in smoke.

But you're not treating him the same. Max's actions justify Wonder Woman not giving him the same moral consideration that others deserve. His actions remove him from the category of "all the metas."

[JeffreyWKramer]

Looking at the end, Diana has Max under the power of the lasso and says to him "Tell me how to free him from your control? "

He says "Kill me." She knows the lasso makes him tell the truth, so why wouldn't she think that killing him wasn't the only option?


The lasso would give her the truth as Max knows it. But Wonder Woman knows people who have access to tech and methods far, far beyond Max's telepathy and the OMAC stuff.

Like I've said before, I don't have a problem with Diana killing Max in principle, but I don't see that it was the only option under the circumstances.

[Peter]

Diana is willing to kill, thats been show repeatedly for quite a while now. She doesn't like it, and avoids it as best she can, but she's a warrior, and sometimes you have no choice.

Mid-battle, certainly.

But a defeated opponent? That wasn't killing Max, that was cold-blooded murder.

[Donald Stone]

Like I've said before, I don't have a problem with Diana killing Max in principle, but I don't see that it was the only option under the circumstances.I can see that. My only thing is, most of the other options I've seen people offer (not just here, but other forums) IMO are no better than killing the man.

[SUPERECWFAN1]

Diana is willing to kill, thats been show repeatedly for quite a while now. She doesn't like it, and avoids it as best she can, but she's a warrior, and sometimes you have no choice.

Much like Captain America.


Wonders where everyone was at when Diana In Issue 212 (or 210) blinded herself. Then cut Madusa's head clean off In thier battle . I didn't see them all yellin " She could have done somethin else...."


She's for Peace . But If she has to , she'll don the battle armor and go to War. As were gonna see In Infinite Crisis.

[JeffreyWKramer]

My only thing is, most of the other options I've seen people offer (not just here, but other forums) IMO are no better than killing the man.
As to how WW could remove this stuff from Superman's head and keep Max from doing it again...

She goes to the JSA, gets Jakeem Thunder and the Thunderbolt,* tells him what to say, voila. She could also have the T-bolt take away Max's telepathic powers.

I thought of this on my own. Think how much better a plan one might develop if she went and grabbed one of the Marvels, thus accessing the Wisdom of Solomon.

*Given the timeframe, she presumably doesn't know Jakeem is temporarily MIA in JSA, but in all likelihood, given the decompressed time frames, that state of affairs will last no more than a weekend or so of comics time.

[Donald Stone]

Mid-battle, certainly.

But a defeated opponent? That wasn't killing Max, that was cold-blooded murder.This wasn't murder.

I believe the term is Justifiable Homicide.

[Yoda]

What steps? And how would that work? If Max can screw with Superman's mind and convince him that Batman is Darksied, what's to keep Hector Hammond from fooling Superman's mind into thinking he's Max Lord, and thus accessing the programming?

I'm assuming that the Max, given how smart he showed himself to be through the rest of Checkmate & OMAC, how paranoid he was of everyone around him - like slaughtering the rest of the Queens & the White King - would have also been smart enough to ensure that only he would have access to Superman's mind in that way. What use would his Alpha One OMAC aka Superman be if any telepath could usurp control?

Given all the assumptions that are being thrown around, i would think this would be a fairly safe one.

[Peter]

For Batman & Superman there are no circumstances were they would take anothers life, even to save an innocent life. Thats one system of morals, and its one that many people find flaws with.

And one with many people don't find flaws with.

And given these guys are "superheroes" -- if I wanted to read about the Punisher than I would.


But you're not treating him the same. Max's actions justify Wonder Woman not giving him the same moral consideration that others deserve. His actions remove him from the category of "all the metas."

Yet you're stilling judging him by his own standards -- something less than everyone else. Killing in battle is one thing, but snapping his neck after defeat execution-style? That's a line that *should not* be crossed, and there's no "ifs" and "maybes" about it.

[JeffreyWKramer]

In OMAC 3# , Max used a Computer to take over Superman. To activate the mind programming.

He presumably could have done the same with a TV screen. The computer wasn't the control mechanism.

[Donald Stone]

Yet you're stilling judging him by his own standards -- something less than everyone else. Killing in battle is one thing, but snapping his neck after defeat execution-style? That's a line that *should not* be crossed, and there's no "ifs" and "maybes" about it.I haven't read it, but didn't Diana execute Posiedon (or whatever his name was) a little while ago for his crimes?

[Peter]

This wasn't murder.

I believe the term is Justifiable Homicide.

Only justifiable if you agree with the "no other options" argument.

And there were other options, quite a few of them.

[SUPERECWFAN1]

As to how WW could remove this stuff from Superman's head and keep Max from doing it again...

She goes to the JSA, gets Jakeem Thunder and the Thunderbolt,* tells him what to say, voila. She could also have the T-bolt take away Max's telepathic powers.

I thought of this on my own. Think how much better a plan one might develop if she went and grabbed one of the Marvels, thus accessing the Wisdom of Solomon.

*Given the timeframe, she presumably doesn't know Jakeem is temporarily MIA in JSA, but in all likelihood, given the decompressed time frames, that state of affairs will last no more than a weekend or so of comics time.


I liked the Marvel's Idea. But again as we saw...Superman was going full throttle In what he felt was Doomsday. He wasn't giving Diana time at all. She got lucky by slicin his throat with a braclet so It could slow him for a few seconds.

If she did go for the JSA, eithor Max would have had Superman kill Lois , make him kill some Innocent people or Max would have drove him Insane. She has seconds....and she had to decide. Max made his choice clear....." Kill me....or I'll never stop! "

[Peter]

I haven't read it, but didn't Diana execute Posiedon (or whatever his name was) a little while ago for his crimes?

The god of the ocean? That'd be an interesting story.

No doubt it's in Diana's character, and she probably has done it before, but that doesn't mean it right. Like you said, "justifiable" only fits if there actually were zero other options, and she *did* have several.

[Yoda]

Yet you're stilling judging him by his own standards -- something less than everyone else. Killing in battle is one thing, but snapping his neck after defeat execution-style? That's a line that *should not* be crossed, and there's no "ifs" and "maybes" about it.
Max has no standards. He will kill you just for being a meta. That is not the same thing as what Wonder Woman did. Max perverted the mind of one of Wonder Woman's closest friends, used him as an tool to harm another of her closest friends. Max told her, that given any chance he would do it again, and again until everyone Superman cared about was dead. He told her the only way he would stop would be if she killed him.

How is that the same?

[JeffreyWKramer]

I'm assuming that the Max, given how smart he showed himself to be through the rest of Checkmate & OMAC, how paranoid he was of everyone around him - like slaughtering the rest of the Queens & the White King - would have also been smart enough to ensure that only he would have access to Superman's mind in that way. What use would his Alpha One OMAC aka Superman be if any telepath could usurp control?

Given all the assumptions that are being thrown around, i would think this would be a fairly safe one.

How would he do this, and how *could* he do this in some manner which a more powerful telepath couldn't just rip right through?

One of the underlying assumptions of mind-manipulation in the DCU is that it isn't impregnable. J'onn's reprogramming of the White Martians didn't stick. Batman figured out about the missing ten minutes and eventually recovered the memories. Light recovered his memories. Max is just another telepath, and not anywhere the top of the food chain in terms of power.

[JeffreyWKramer]

I liked the Marvel's Idea. But again as we saw...Superman was going full throttle In what he felt was Doomsday. He wasn't giving Diana time at all. She got lucky by slicin his throat with a braclet so It could slow him for a few seconds.

If she did go for the JSA, eithor Max would have had Superman kill Lois , make him kill some Innocent people or Max would have drove him Insane. She has seconds....and she had to decide. Max made his choice clear....." Kill me....or I'll never stop! "


No. Max had released Superman from his control at that moment. She KOs Max into next week, gets back to the Watchtower, puts Max in temporary stasis. They contact the JSA and the Marvels, Wally lends speed to everyone involved so they can do 783 days of work in the next 17 seconds, the problem is solved.

That's the problem with supposed "no win scenarios" when you are playing with the Justice League - they have powers and resources which break all the rules.

[Donald Stone]

No doubt it's in Diana's character, and she probably has done it before, but that doesn't mean it right. Like you said, "justifiable" only fits if there actually were zero other options, and she *did* have several.But what options did she have that she knew about? Did she know where to find Jakeem? Did she know where to find Marvel? IIR J'onn already said he couldn't fix it.

And what are they going to do to Max? Keep him unconcious indefinetely, maybe permanently? Mind whipe him? Toss him in another dimension? And she could do all this with absolutely no chance of him having the moment he needed to take control of Superman again?

Personally I don't see how any of those are better than killing him.

[Peter]

Max has no standards. He will kill you just for being a meta. That is not the same thing as what Wonder Woman did. Max perverted the mind of one of Wonder Woman's closest friends, used him as an tool to harm another of her closest friends. Max told her, that given any chance he would do it again, and again until everyone Superman cared about was dead. He told her the only way he would stop would be if she killed him.

How is that the same?

Firstly, because she didn't need to kill him to stop him.

And it's the same because you're arbitrarily deciding, "I'm gonna kill you, but these guys over here didn't hurt one of my friends, so I'll let them live."

If you're gonna kill Max for being a bastard, you might as well kill everybody. Geez, hasn't every hero in the DCU been turned evil briefly at some point in the past? It's probably gonna happen again -- heck, Batman's at least partially responsible for this OMAC mess -- do you want to kill him? Wait, Hal and Zatanna and Barry all brainwashed Batman, giving him cause to be paranoid -- let's kill them too. Where do you stop?

As Chuck once said on the Rumbles Board, I avoid random arbitrary numbers in terms of capital punishment, and draw the line at "zero".


At what point does 'sacrifice a few to ensure happy lives for the many' cease to be right?

One innocent sacrifice? Ten? A thousand? A million? Six million? Where do we draw the line? Where's the magic number? And why is that number so wrong when the number just one below it is right? If we draw the line at one million, what's so much better about nine hundred ninety-nine thousand and nine hundred ninety-nine? If we draw it at twenty, what's so holy about nineteen? Hrm?

I draw the line at 'one'. It saves me a whole lot of having to falsely rationalize.

What he said.

[Peter]

But what options did she have that she knew about? Did she know where to find Jakeem? Did she know where to find Marvel? IIR J'onn already said he couldn't fix it.

And what are they going to do to Max? Keep him unconcious indefinetely, maybe permanently? Mind whipe him? Toss him in another dimension?

Yes.

And she could do all this with absolutely no chance of him having the moment he needed to take control of Superman again?

Calling J'Onn telepathically and then rallying the troops -- metas who *could* stop a crazy Superman, like Captains Marvel and Atom, J'Onn, GLs (heck, even the new gods or Spectre, if it came to that) -- would take less than a second. Dumping Max in the Phantom Zone? Also less than a second.

Like Jeffrey said -- "no win situations" don't work with the JLA, because they break all the rules.

[JeffreyWKramer]

But what options did she have that she knew about? Did she know where to find Jakeem? Did she know where to find Marvel?
The JLA has the JSA on speed-dial. In ACTION, we saw that they had Alan Scott watching out for the crazed Superman, so presumably they were in communication with the JSA through this whole debacle.

Captain Marvel is a JLA reservist and presumably carries a communicator. His secret ID is also known to at least some of the League, including Superman (who referred to Cap as "Bill" during Morrison's JLA run, in CRISIS TIMES FIVE).

[Yoda]

And it's the same because you're arbitrarily deciding, "I'm gonna kill you, but these guys over here didn't hurt one of my friends, so I'll let them live."

If you're gonna kill Max for being a bastard, you might as well kill everybody..
How is it arbitrary? One harmed others. One did nothing. Seems like a distinction to me.

[Donald Stone]

Yes.
And like I said, I don't see how any of those things are better than killing him.

[Donald Stone]

The JLA has the JSA on speed-dial. In ACTION, we saw that they had Alan Scott watching out for the crazed Superman, so presumably they were in communication with the JSA through this whole debacle.

Captain Marvel is a JLA reservist and presumably carries a communicator. His secret ID is also known to at least some of the League, including Superman (who referred to Cap as "Bill" during Morrison's JLA run, in CRISIS TIMES FIVE).Okay, I'm willing to admit there where other things she could have done, but I think from her perspective she did not have any options, and none of the outcomes are any better than killing Max Lord.

[Peter]

How is it arbitrary? One harmed others. One did nothing. Seems like a distinction to me.

Hal, Zatanna, Barry and Ollie betrayed and violated one of their own team-mates. Let's go with your distinction then, and let's kill them.

Batman is partially responsible for this whole OMAC mess. Let's kill him.

Superman went crazy, and there are far more powerful telepaths on the DCU who -- will more than likely -- be able to repeat what Max did. To prevent that from happening, let's kill him.

Death will stop them all -- well, except for the fact that we're in the DCU, where the only character who did die (Jason Todd) is now back. And it's not like Diana knows what a revolving door death can be in the DCU...

[SUPERECWFAN1]

No. Max had released Superman from his control at that moment. She KOs Max into next week, gets back to the Watchtower, puts Max in temporary stasis. They contact the JSA and the Marvels, Wally lends speed to everyone involved so they can do 783 days of work in the next 17 seconds, the problem is solved.

That's the problem with supposed "no win scenarios" when you are playing with the Justice League - they have powers and resources which break all the rules.


As you said: " He released Superman for the moment."


Max made It clear that It was only going to be for a few seconds. He could have gotten control back at any point. Waking up In stasis at the Watchtower , assuming control of Supes again....ect ect. It was too risky and I think Rucka did a good job on showing...If there were options...they were risky and Involved time. And time wouldn't help If Max woke back up or was able to grab Superman again.

[Peter]

Okay, I'm willing to admit there where other things she could have done, but I think from her perspective she did not have any options...

But that's the thing. Even if she couldn't see options B and C, those options were still there. Given she used one of them before (trapping the White Martians in the Phantom Zone), she must've had a serious memory lapse there.

[JeffreyWKramer]

Okay, I'm willing to admit there where other things she could have done, but I think from her perspective she did not have any options, and none of the outcomes are any better than killing Max Lord.

But, why would she not have any options? She's not some shmoe, she's a very intelligent, experienced hero who knows these other folk and their abilities, and is used to thinking on her feet.

Diana doesn't have a problem with killing when it is necessary, but she doesn't do it that often, as she knows it usually isn't necessary, even when she's on her own. Given that this was a JLA matter, she knows there are lots of other options. Hell, she can contact Athena for guidance.

And remember, given her easy access to Wally and his ability to confer speed, she has essentially all the time in the world. This isn't even an alien idea to her, as it's been utilized in at least two JLA stories, probably more, starting with that Adam Strange one, where the JLA were enslaved by Kanjar Ro or whomever that was.

[Yoda]

How would he do this, and how *could* he do this in some manner which a more powerful telepath couldn't just rip right through?

One of the underlying assumptions of mind-manipulation in the DCU is that it isn't impregnable. J'onn's reprogramming of the White Martians didn't stick. Batman figured out about the missing ten minutes and eventually recovered the memories. Light recovered his memories. Max is just another telepath, and not anywhere the top of the food chain in terms of power.
Well, I was working under the assumptions i listed above. But I can see your point, and i'm sure in a few years we'll see this exact story played out in some way shape or form, unless it's going to be addressed over the next few months. I still maintain that her actions were justified. She removed the most immediate threat in the only way she could assure Max, at least, never could use Superman in that way again. Killing Superman, an innocent in this scenario, just would not be acceptable.

[JeffreyWKramer]

As you said: " He released Superman for the moment."
Max made It clear that It was only going to be for a few seconds. He could have gotten control back at any point.

Not while he was unconscious, and as I've explained multiple times here, given the resources WW has available, he can be kept harmlessly unconscious for way longer than this fix would take - especially if they utilize Wally's speed-force boost.

[Donald Stone]

Not while he was unconscious, and as I've explained multiple times here, given the resources WW has available, he can be kept harmlessly unconscious for way longer than this fix would take - especially if they utilize Wally's speed-force boost.Okay, say she calls Wally, and the get Max up to the Watchtower and into stasis.

Then what?

[Yoda]

Hal, Zatanna, Barry and Ollie betrayed and violated one of their own team-mates. Let's go with your distinction then, and let's kill them.

Batman is partially responsible for this whole OMAC mess. Let's kill him.

Superman went crazy, and there are far more powerful telepaths on the DCU who -- will more than likely -- be able to repeat what Max did. To prevent that from happening, let's kill him.

Death will stop them all -- well, except for the fact that we're in the DCU, where the only character who did die (Jason Todd) is now back. And it's not like Diana knows what a revolving door death can be in the DCU...
Hal, Zatanna, Barry and Ollie didn't use Batman as a weapon to try and kill anyone. That's the distinction there. What they did was still wrong, but it's not the same as what Max did and what he would do again given the chance.

Is there ever a situation where you would allow for capital punishment?

[Peter]

Killing Superman, an innocent in this scenario, just would not be acceptable.

Here's another option -- Max isn't that powerful. "Kal, you're free for a minute. Given you can play tag with photons, in that minute I'd strongly suggest you being somewhere in the vicinity of Nepture."

Another option.

[Yoda]

Here's another option -- Max isn't that powerful. "Kal, you're free for a minute. Given you can play tag with photons, in that minute I'd strongly suggest you being somewhere in the vicinity of Nepture."

Another option.
He did it from the moon. How did she know his limits?

[Peter]

Is there ever a situation where you would allow for capital punishment?

Personally, no.

You disagree, and that's cool, but that's where I stand.

That's the line in the sand -- the line drawn at one that Chuck mentioned -- and if you cross that line you become what you're fighting against.



Okay, say she calls Wally, and the get Max up to the Watchtower and into stasis. Then what?

Phantom Zone imprisonment, and then find some way to strip him of his powers, and strip Superman of the psi-damage. Given their resources, that shouldn't be too hard at all.

[Donald Stone]

Here's another option -- Max isn't that powerful. "Kal, you're free for a minute. Given you can play tag with photons, in that minute I'd strongly suggest you being somewhere in the vicinity of Nepture."Wouldn't work. They where fighting by the sun and Max still had control. Hell, didn't Max grab him while he was on the moon?

And it's acceptable to banish Superman from the planet till they figure something out?

[Peter]

He did it from the moon. How did she know his limits?

There's the moon, and then there's several solar systems away.

And all they need is that tiny half-second to Phantom Zone his ass.

Or couldn't Wally steal Max's speed, and thus trap him in time? There's *another* available option, for stopping him with non-lethal-force.

[SUPERECWFAN1]

Hal, Zatanna, Barry and Ollie betrayed and violated one of their own team-mates. Let's go with your distinction then, and let's kill them.

The League has paid for thier sins with Identity Crisis. Its clear they did wrong. They felt by mind wiping Dr.Light they could protect thier families and friends. Bruce wasn't at all happy but they felt they needed to do It. They had no Idea the effect It would have on Batman.

They wanted to protect everyone for the greater good. And end result was they sadly did more damage . Sometimes the best possible solution ends up sadly costing you.

Batman is partially responsible for this whole OMAC mess. Let's kill him.

Thier already not trusting him. Booster himself took him to task and so will others. Once they hear he built this system....ohh boy will he have a hard time explaining It. Adds tension to the Superman/Diana situation thats ongoing.

Superman went crazy, and there are far more powerful telepaths on the DCU who -- will more than likely -- be able to repeat what Max did. To prevent that from happening, let's kill him.

It could happen and It could not. We have no Idea. Maybe once Dian snapped Max's neck his mental manipulation broke. Max was a rare trigger and had his hand on It. Who's to say by killing Max , It didn't cause that mental manipulation of his to suffer ? We'll see.

Death will stop them all -- well, except for the fact that we're in the DCU, where the only character who did die (Jason Todd) is now back. And it's not like Diana knows what a revolving door death can be in the DCU...


Death works In cases where Its needed. In Captain America he faced down a Terrorist and had one choice . Kill him or others die. Cap...had to do It. Because In the heat of a battle and some evil won't be stopped. Cap couldn't call the The Avengers In because It was a do or die time there. Just like It was In 219 for Diana.

[Yoda]

Personally, no.

You disagree, and that's cool, but that's where I stand.

That's the line in the sand -- the line drawn at one that Chuck mentioned -- and if you cross that line you become what you're fighting against.
Then we can agree to disagree on that. Not a problem. It's been an interesting discussion, and on that note I'm goin to bed.

[Peter]

And it's acceptable to banish Superman from the planet till they figure something out?

Yes. For these reasons --

1. If somebody's using a weapon, you take the weapon away from him.

2. The further away from Earth Superman gets, the longer it'll take him to get back.

3. Diana would've needed less than a second to bop Max into unconsciousness, Phantom Zone him, get Wally to steal his speed, etc etc etc. Getting Superman *out* of the arena would give her that time.

4. Is there any doubt that if Superman became a threat he'd want to up and leave the area as quickly as possible?

[Donald Stone]

And all they need is that tiny half-second to Phantom Zone his ass.

Or couldn't Wally steal Max's speed, and thus trap him in time? There's *another* available option, for stopping him with non-lethal-force.And again I ask, how is trapping the man in time, reworking his brain, or dumping him in another dimension better than killing him?

[JeffreyWKramer]

Okay, say she calls Wally, and the get Max up to the Watchtower and into stasis.

Then what?

Like I mentioned earlier. They call Captain Marvel and the JSA, get Cap and Jakeem up to the Watchtower. Once they do this, Wally gives all involved his level of speed, allowing them to plan out and take a few months worth of actions within a few seconds. They use that time, J'onn's expertise and the Wisdom of Solomon to think of exactly what to tell the Thunderbolt to do. Removing the screwy programming from Superman's mind without damaging Superman's brain should be within the Thunderbolt's abilities. If they wanted, they could also remove Max's telepathic abilities by the same route, then stick him in a cell in Atlantis or on New Genesis or wherever.

This being comics, that isn't to say Max couldn't somehow regain his powers, but this being comics, there's also nothing to say Neron or someone won't return Max from the dead next week - maybe with a power boost - so the non-lethal plan is no more risky an option than is killing Max.

[JeffreyWKramer]

Then we can agree to disagree on that. Not a problem. It's been an interesting discussion, and on that note I'm goin to bed.

Good discussion indeed, Yoda. Thanks for taking part.

[Peter]

And again I ask, how is trapping the man in time, reworking his brain, or dumping him in another dimension better than killing him?

Well, I thought it would be self-evident that finding a solution that doesn't involve executing somebody would always be preferable.

And *again* I point up to Jeff's posts -- Phantom Zone imprisonment/speed steal buys the JLA time to figure out what to do *next*. Take his powers away, heal Superman, whatever. They've certainly got the resources available. Again, keeping body counts as close to zero as possible is always preferable.

[Peter]

This being comics, that isn't to say Max couldn't somehow regain his powers, but this being comics, there's also nothing to say Neron or someone won't return Max from the dead next week - maybe with a power boost - so the non-lethal plan is no more risky an option than is killing Max.

Given Jason Todd's back with a grudge of late, that death is a revolving door in the DCU should be self-evident by this stage.

[JeffreyWKramer]

Given Jason Todd's back with a grudge of late, that death is a revolving door in the DCU should be self-evident by this stage.
Plus Donna Troy being back.

[Peter]

Plus Donna Troy being back.

*nods*

Honestly, who can keep up anymore?

Somebody in this thread specifically mentioned that Superman himself said that "around here, death isn't a particularly final solution" anyway during JLA Classified.

[Fenix]

Right thing all the way. That´s the truth, no other, even Max addmited it. Why do you people still wonder about it?
She´s the goddess of truth and she act likewise.

[Peter]

Right thing all the way. That´s the truth, no other, even Max addmited it.

He said two words. A truth.

Not necessarily the only truth, but a truth nonetheless.

[Donald Stone]

Well, I thought it would be self-evident that finding a solution that doesn't involve executing somebody would always be preferable.It is, but most of the options I've seen presented are no better than death. Permanent stasis, kept in a teleport loop, frozen in time, altering his mind, all of these are just as bad as killing the man.

And *again* I point up to Jeff's posts -- Phantom Zone imprisonment/speed steal buys the JLA time to figure out what to do *next*. Take his powers away, heal Superman, whatever. They've certainly got the resources available. Again, keeping body counts as close to zero as possible is always preferable.I'll admit, Jeff's plan could work, but I think it's a lot easier to sit and say what Diana should have done then it would be for Diana to come up with something like that. She's just had a long and bloody battle, her wrist is broken, she's battered and bleeding and as far as she can tell Superman could return to Max's control at any moment.

Looking at it like that, no, I don't think she was out of line at all.

[Donald Stone]

Plus Donna Troy being back.Donna's back?

Cool, I like Donna. Still, death isn't totally a revolving door till Barry comes back. In the mean time it's more of a merry-go-round.

[Peter]

It is, but most of the options I've seen presented are no better than death. Permanent stasis, kept in a teleport loop, frozen in time, altering his mind, all of these are just as bad as killing the man.

Snake, for the 20th time, these solutions are temporary until the Leaguers figure out what to do next. People wanted to know what else Diana could've done to stop Max without killing him -- and we gave you ideas. Plenty of them.

I'll admit, Jeff's plan could work, but I think it's a lot easier to sit and say what Diana should have done then it would be for Diana to come up with something like that. She's just had a long and bloody battle, her wrist is broken, she's battered and bleeding and as far as she can tell Superman could return to Max's control at any moment.

Which is where my "Superman, get out of here!" plan comes into play.


Looking at it like that, no, I don't think she was out of line at all.

I understand why she did it, but I don't have to think it was the right option. She's dealt with powerful telepaths before, she is telepathically linked to some of the most powerful beings on Earth (and beyond), and she could've KOed him with minimal effort. It was heat-of-the-moment but saying she had no other options is just wrong.

[Donald Stone]

Snake, for the 20th time, these solutions are temporary until the Leaguers figure out what to do next. People wanted to know what else Diana could've done to stop Max without killing him -- and we gave you ideas. Plenty of them.But my thing is, then what?

Can't put him in jail, he can take over Superman at anytime. J'onn said he couldn't fix it, so what can they do to stop Max permanently, not just for now.

Jeff's idea was a good one, just not one I think pop into Diana's head at a moments notice.

[Fenix]

Peter
I understand why she did it, but I don't have to think it was the right option. She's dealt with powerful telepaths before, she is telepathically linked to some of the most powerful beings on Earth (and beyond), and she could've KOed him with minimal effort. It was heat-of-the-moment but saying she had no other options is just wrong.

It wasn´t the right option. It was her option, meaning : Place, time, situation, knowledge, possibilities, etc, all in one. AS you said before: One truth, for one particular moment.
Was that the best for that moment? Yes.
Because of this I doubt she will start killing every tough villan around.

[Z-man]

Say what you want....Lord was someone If you knocked him out , would have woke up....and started the ball rolling again. As were seeing In the current JLA Arc , Despero Is busy undoing all the mindwipes. So Imagine him waking up Lord If Diana did have him mindwiped,knocked out or whatever they would do.

And what would Lord do if you knocked him out, removed his powers through any number of means from Zatanna's magic to damaging the part of the brain responsible for psychic powers, and locked him up in a little room where he'll never see the sun again?

[Z-man]

Looking at the end, Diana has Max under the power of the lasso and says to him "Tell me how to free him from your control? "

He says "Kill me." She knows the lasso makes him tell the truth, so why wouldn't she think that killing him wasn't the only option?

The lasso does not grant people superintellect or some inflated sense of proportion whereby they can see things they couldn't otherwise.

When Maxwell Lord said that the only way to stop him was to kill him, that means that the only way HE CAN THINK OF for Wonder Woman to do to stop him was to kill him.

After all, if Wonder Woman wraps the lasso around you and asks you what you are going to do tomorrow, you will tell her what you plan to do tomorrow. You won't be able to know that, for example, the movie you're going to will be sold out, or that the friend you hoped to visit will have a family emergency that keeps him from meeting you.

You can be WRONG with the lasso on you, you just can't be deceitful.

[Z-man]

But what options did she have that she knew about? Did she know where to find Jakeem? Did she know where to find Marvel? IIR J'onn already said he couldn't fix it.

And what are they going to do to Max? Keep him unconcious indefinetely, maybe permanently? Mind whipe him? Toss him in another dimension? And she could do all this with absolutely no chance of him having the moment he needed to take control of Superman again?

Personally I don't see how any of those are better than killing him.

You act like plans 1 and 2 are mutually exclusive. Keep Max unconscious, toss him in another dimension, then find a phone and call Captain Marvel or find Jakeem Thunder, pull Max out of that dimension, or drag his unconscious body out of the prison, do that thing you need him to do, and, bam, powerless Max. All this, and nobody's neck gets snapped.

[chriskenny]

You act like plans 1 and 2 are mutually exclusive. Keep Max unconscious, toss him in another dimension, then find a phone and call Captain Marvel or find Jakeem Thunder, pull Max out of that dimension, or drag his unconscious body out of the prison, do that thing you need him to do, and, bam, powerless Max. All this, and nobody's neck gets snapped.

The way I see it, there was no way to undo the damage Max had done as long as he was alive. I think Rucka really tried to convey that if J'onn couldn't undo the mental work done to Superman, then no one can. Placing him unconscious wasn't a long term option. And inducing a coma or throwing him into the Phantom Zone, as Rucka said in a recent Newsarama interview, is a kind of death sentence besides.

[chriskenny]

To me, this is the same kind of situations you would find a policeman or a soldier in. People have to sometimes make choices that take a few lives to save countelss others. I don't see how a superhero is inherently immune from making that similar choice. And I don't see why it is morally reprehensible for a superhero like Wonder Woman to kill a man who was using the world's most powerful man as a murder weapon but when a cop puts a guy down when he uses a weapon that officer it is bravery in the line of duty.

I just don't see it. I mean, in MOST cases a character like Wonder Woman or Superman is entirely to powerful and capable of disarming or stopping villains without killing. Hell, they can even do it without laying a finger on him in some instances. However, Rucka cleverly found a way to find a situation where it was exceedingly difficult to rule out that option. And while the situation is a little more fantastic than what a police officer or a professional soldier would find themselves in, I don't think the basic moral questions are different. And I think that Wonder Woman did what she needed to do in the interests of the public good.

[Z-man]

The way I see it, there was no way to undo the damage Max had done as long as he was alive. I think Rucka really tried to convey that if J'onn couldn't undo the mental work done to Superman, then no one can. Placing him unconscious wasn't a long term option. And inducing a coma or throwing him into the Phantom Zone, as Rucka said in a recent Newsarama interview, is a kind of death sentence besides.

It's not a death sentence when it's not permanent. They tried one psychic, and they tried it on Superman, not on Lord. There's still the magicians, and you can still target it on Lord in order to remove his psychic powers, instead of working on the triggering.

And, as said before and again by you just now, Superman's brain was damaged in such a way that psychics can get him to kill people. It took Max years to set up the triggers, but only a few seconds to activate them. Since J'onn can find them, other psychics can too. Psychics that actually want to use them. If it's incurable, then you need to take out Superman, it's the only way, by your reasoning, to keep him from doing it again.

[Z-man]

To me, this is the same kind of situations you would find a policeman or a soldier in. People have to sometimes make choices that take a few lives to save countelss others. I don't see how a superhero is inherently immune from making that similar choice. And I don't see why it is morally reprehensible for a superhero like Wonder Woman to kill a man who was using the world's most powerful man as a murder weapon but when a cop puts a guy down when he uses a weapon that officer it is bravery in the line of duty.

No, she killed a man who had been using the world's most powerful man as a murder weapon.

When a cop shoots somebody who is aiming a gun at the cop or somebody else, he is a hero. When a cop shoots someone who had been armed as he is handcuffed and unable to do anything, it IS considered morally reprehensible.

[chriskenny]

Looks like you're right:

http://www.newsarama.com/dcnew/Oct05/JLA-Cv120-copy.jpg

Can't say I'm super-crazy about that lineup but then again, I have no reason to believe that that's the final lineup.

I really like that lineup quite a bit, though I think two Green Lanterns on one team is maybe one too many. I also think the female to male ratio is pretty dramatic.

I love that Zauriel is on the team. I wonder who the leader is.

I think they should swap a Green Lantern for Steel (when is he coming back, anyway?). Then maybe add Black Canary and Zatanna. Switch out Plastic Man, not such a huge fan of his unless he is in his own cartoony comic by Kyle Baker.

But that is a decent lineup. But like you guys said, I bet that isn't the final lineup.

Chris

[bfrank]

Methinks, the subject title should have been "Did Diana do the proper thing/action?"

Implying it was a 'right thing", is like saying, was it wrong to take out Max...and honestly, she got played by him, showing before OMAC, the visual 'final' lesson on why, those with superpowers, are truly a danger to humanity, and using Diana's warrior side to do it.


I would bet, that over the years of using that power, it was slowly killing him.

Possibility, he was dying, so, to go out on a bang, why not orchestrate the one person, who will not bat an eye in doing it (killing him).

He (Max) knew her profile, for a long time.

The vote will be yes...also, on Diana's action.

Diana and everyone else, got played, using Bruce's software and hardware, and his mindset to boot.

If anyone told me in the world, that they will keep doing what they have been doing with someone, against their wishes, and it is causing people to get hurt, that I know personally.

Where is the biggest underwater trench on the Earth?

That is just me, and a lot of people, know me as a nice guy.
Brother I invalidates your theory...

[bfrank]

Not an alternative. An Element. Namely, time.

Superman was free, they were not under attack, and Max was neutralized. The decision did not have to be made then and there. Maybe there was no viable alternative. But maybe there was one, too, as yet unthought of. Wonder Woman’s action prevented that possibility. If they were still in battle, if Superman was still under Max’s control, she was justified. Certainly if an OMAC materialize in front of them, it becomes necessary to kill Max immediately. But as long as there was time, there was a chance. Isn’t that what heroes do, risk everything to find a just answer? How many times have we seen “One last chance” gasped? Wonder Woman did not even look for that last chance. If everything stands as that issue read, this was murder.
I think many of you are over looking the fact that Max was bound by the lasso (and forced to speak the truth) when he said "kill me"...there were no other options..

[bfrank]

And going by the logic that it was best to kill Max, it's obviously best to kill Superman, so as to "make sure this never happened again."

Killing Max was "Justice Lord" territory, pure and simple.
That's a bit naive but, but ok...

[bfrank]

Like I mentioned earlier. They call Captain Marvel and the JSA, get Cap and Jakeem up to the Watchtower. Once they do this, Wally gives all involved his level of speed, allowing them to plan out and take a few months worth of actions within a few seconds. They use that time, J'onn's expertise and the Wisdom of Solomon to think of exactly what to tell the Thunderbolt to do. Removing the screwy programming from Superman's mind without damaging Superman's brain should be within the Thunderbolt's abilities. If they wanted, they could also remove Max's telepathic abilities by the same route, then stick him in a cell in Atlantis or on New Genesis or wherever.

This being comics, that isn't to say Max couldn't somehow regain his powers, but this being comics, there's also nothing to say Neron or someone won't return Max from the dead next week - maybe with a power boost - so the non-lethal plan is no more risky an option than is killing Max.
and you'd trust Jakeem Thunder to get that wish right?

[Bored at 3:00AM]

There is one thing else that I realised here. All someone has to do is go back in time and pluck Max out of the timestream prior to his death and this whole mess starts all over again.

Someone like, say, Per Degaton or Chronos. Both of whom have been shown working for Luthor, who you know would just love to play Superman like a fiddle over and over and over again until the world can't see him as anything but a threat to them.

"There will be a reckoning....a CRISIS"

que ominous music

[Sir Christopher]

Assuming for the moment that Rucka doesn't have some backhanded crap up his sleeve to jerk the rug out from Diana (like say, an automated message triggered by Max's death stating that he partially mindwiped himself and orchestrated the whole situation to force Diana to kill him so the world would see that he was ultimately right... yes, that would be stupid as hell, but I wouldn't put it past the ID crew), I'm going to assume that he did the best job he could to portray the correctness of Diana's action.

Well, that's the problem -- his best wasn't good enough here. In a world where