THE TRINITY: Moral choices, ethical division & killing *SPOILERS* [Archive] - Page 3

aeastwic

07-31-2005, 06:06 PM

For that matter, I'm not sure I get Max's endgame either. Even if Diana didn't kill him, once his involvement was confirmed, somebody was going to do something to Max. And this thread has a whole long list of potentials. Granted, they're only temporary fixes, but any one of them still puts a huge cramp in his 'Disgrace Superman' endgame. Unless, that is, he was planning to control Superman to do some little stuff for a couple of days, get exposed, promptly get caught, and then lie in wait for the next opportunity to present itself (while Checkmate gets dismantled during his absence). Suddenly, his entire 'Take back control from the metahumans' endgame is totally shot, in favor of *eventually* getting to ruin Superman.

For a master planner and manipulator like Max, that seems like a pretty shoddy scheme. Then again, I'm not convinced that Max is actually dead, and if he's not then I can see some other good avenues for a plan.

This is something that has to be better explained. DC has built max up into a powerful villian, only to kill him? Either they need to show why Max is doing this and give some backstory on what he's up to; or they need to have someone else pulling his strings.

Or he was really convinced that meta-humans were a terrible threat and he was willing to die to do something about it.

Like building up Blue Beetle and then killing him, this is a little quick for me. I'm almost hoping that someone was doing to Max, what Max was doing to Superman.

Paul Newell

07-31-2005, 06:07 PM

At the moment I'm reading through this thread...Living in Australia means missing most of the daily action, so if anyone is out of line then they will be reprimanded, but in all honesty, the only one I've received complaints about, so far, is you, Naj.

And guys, especially Sk8maven, take note: There are rules about language here at the DC Board so please stop dropping the F & S bombs.

aeastwic

07-31-2005, 06:12 PM

Ok, can anyone explain to me when Diana won't kill any of her villains?

Dr. Psycho?
Devastation?
Circe?

Are all of her villains just dead men walking? Because, this is what it comes down to.

I think it comes down to oppertunity; was there a clear case where killing was the BEST option at the time. In most of what's written, the supervillians are defeated without using lethal force.

However, no one is bitching about all the times that the solution to a super-villain's scheme is to do something that SHOULD kill them, but since writers' don't want to kill the character, the villian escapes. How many times should Dr. Doom be killed because Reed Richards caused his plans to blow up in his face. On many occasions, Doom should have died. But because he's a popular character, he lives to fight another day.

However, clearly Reed acts in the best interests of everyone and comes up with the best solution, is he wrong for doing this?

Remember from WW219, Diana didn't come tearing in with the intent to kill Max. She lassoed him, questioned him and forced him to stand down. Based on what happened, she decided what she thought was best.

Smarty Jones

07-31-2005, 06:12 PM

"At the moment I'm reading through this thread...Living in Australia means missing most of the daily action, so if anyone is out of line then they will be reprimanded, but in all honesty, the only one I've received complaints about, so far, is you, Naj."

Then in all fairness, you need to read the thread fully or I can send you examples of people making smart-aleck remarks to me. I'm not insulting anyone, so I don't expect to be judged by one-sided comments sent possibly by the ones making the comments.

Sk8maven

07-31-2005, 06:17 PM

And guys, especially Sk8maven, take note: There are rules about language here at the DC Board so please stop dropping the F & S bombs.Okay. Sorry. (Except I'm not a "guy", not that it matters.)

But the JSA's attitude at the end of JSA #75 really bugged me - they might at least have said, "Thank you" to Black Adam before telling him to get lost and stay lost. (Wrong thread anyhow.)

Maven

aeastwic

07-31-2005, 06:22 PM

While Evil Supervillain Max Lord can be extrapolated from "manipulative so-and-so Max Lord" back in the old JLI days, no DC writer actually HAS done such extrapolation, or explained away or otherwise dealt with various scenes that showed that Max really DID care about the people he was "manipulating".

It makes some of us (but only SOME of us) wonder if perhaps Max was himself being manipulated (by whom? why?), of if the "Max" we saw jerking everyone around wasn't the "real" Max (and then where IS the "real" one?).

Maven

Is there something that someone can point me to that gives a history on Max Lord? He's either being manipulated, gone crazy or has been an idealogical zealot to what he believes, to the point where he'll die himself to see it happen.

Not to mention Checkmate. How did he become Black King and no one knew about it. Surely someone in the hero community would know. When the JLA saw Max in Superman's mind, all they could come up with was "Used car salesman Max is doing this?"

Paul Newell

07-31-2005, 06:46 PM

Then in all fairness, you need to read the thread fully or I can send you examples of people making smart-aleck remarks to me. I'm not insulting anyone, so I don't expect to be judged by one-sided comments sent possibly by the ones making the comments.
I just did and all I saw was one poster who crossed the line then apologised, to you personally, for their behaviour.

So lets just leave it at that.....Apart from delivering a blanket warning to all to please tone it down and be civil. This is my last word on the subject.

Sk8maven

07-31-2005, 06:48 PM

Is there something that someone can point me to that gives a history on Max Lord? He's either being manipulated, gone crazy or has been an idealogical zealot to what he believes, to the point where he'll die himself to see it happen.

Not to mention Checkmate. How did he become Black King and no one knew about it. Surely someone in the hero community would know. When the JLA saw Max in Superman's mind, all they could come up with was "Used car salesman Max is doing this?"Try a Google search on "Maxwell Lord". Even if you find the info, there's a HUGE discontinuity between who and what he used to be and who and what he is now (and we're being told "always was").

I don't think we ever will get an explanation of how he was able to take over Checkmate - that would take too much valuable page time away from fight scenes. :rolleyes:

Here's Wikipedia on the subject - note that assorted contradictions have been clearly spelled out: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maxwell_Lord

Maven

AllisterH

07-31-2005, 07:07 PM

*Blinks*

WHAT THE HELL!??!?!?!

Let me get this straight.....Maxwell Lord, last seen before OMAC, exists in a robot body?

How the hell did the editor explain this?!?!?!?

Paul Newell

07-31-2005, 07:16 PM

Okay. Sorry. (Except I'm not a "guy", not that it matters.)

The "guys" was just a generality for everyone, I knew you was a gal...Sorry about that. :)

Smarty Jones

07-31-2005, 07:24 PM

Here is a link about the life and times of Maxwell Lord. (http://galileo.spaceports.com/~xsufiru/databank/Lord%20Maxwell4/) Even by comic book standards, it's a little ... interesting.

Kid Seven

07-31-2005, 07:27 PM

http://galileo.spaceports.com/~xsufiru/databank/Lord%20Maxwell4/

Here is a link about the life and history of Maxwell Lord. It's a strange one, even by comic book standards.

Smarty, This link is not showing up for me. ?.

Sk8maven

07-31-2005, 07:30 PM

Let me get this straight.....Maxwell Lord, last seen before OMAC, exists in a robot body?

How the hell did the editor explain this?!?!?!?Easy. They DIDN'T. :p

They also glossed over all examples of Max showing care and concern for "his" people, and J'Onn's vetting of him as "flawed, but basically a good guy", as merely examples of Max's greater duplicity. (How's that again? He was even deceiving and manipulating himself? :confused: )

IMHO it's a horrible example of writers and/or editors who want a particular story to go a particular way - and who don't care how grotesquely they have to distort which characters in order to get the results they want.

Maven

Sk8maven

07-31-2005, 08:12 PM

Ah yes, way back then. Where get those numbers? first I have heard of them. Supposedly X-Men #1 was the first comics to break the 2 million barrior, Spawn the one million.I'm not sure about the 2 million mark, but the 1 million mark HAD been broken (repeatedly!) by 1942. Here's a link to an article by somebody who went and dug up the statistics: http://www.nostalgiazone.com/doc/zine/05_Q1/funnybusiness.htm

Also books were a nickel or a dime then. Something even little kids could get hold of with relative ease and the only other competition then was the radio.Not by the X-Men/Spawn days. If I recall correctly, comics had already gone up to at least 12 cents each - and television was very much a part of the scene, had been since the 1950's. (Television, and its Westerns craze, may have contributed to the first decline of superhero comics, circa 1948-55.) Spawn, incidentally, didn't even come into existence until post-Crisis - Todd McFarlane was drawing "Infinity Inc." for DC in 1985-86. (And prices went up AGAIN about then, too.)

By the way, I was actually reading comics back then - all the way back to the 1950's, in fact.

Maven

Z-man

07-31-2005, 08:27 PM

Which is why I ignored Sk8maven. It was pretty obvious that (s)he was really dealing with issues not germaine to this topic, but a personal view beyond what is being discussed.

It's just like when Peter was debating the issue; it was pretty obvious he was speaking from the stance of being against capital punishment, which while pertinent in forming his own opinion started going into his assessment of his opponents' values. Z-man seems to be cut from the same cloth, as well.

When you're interested in discussing the issues and not the posters, maybe I'll pay attention again.

Also, compliments on the strawman that playing Judge, Jury, and Executioner is the same as being against capital punishment. Especially as I was the one pushing for something resembling a trial rather than just killing because it's easier.

Smarty Jones

07-31-2005, 08:29 PM

"Also, compliments on the strawman that playing Judge, Jury, and Executioner is the same as being against capital punishment. Especially as I was the one pushing for something resembling a trial rather than just killing because it's easier."

And maybe when you stop pushing your own personal agenda, I will take you off Ignore.

Guts/Batman

07-31-2005, 10:22 PM

Diana had probably a million pros and cons going in her head during the time before she snapped his neck. It was a command decision made during battle based on any number of factors (as Max was clearly not defeated), and a command decision I cannot fault her for it in the least.

I was also reading on dc's forums that it was Max's plan for Diana to kill Clark. Hadn;t thought of it that way.

Z-man

07-31-2005, 10:22 PM

And maybe when you stop pushing your own personal agenda, I will take you off Ignore.

How am I pushing a personal agenda any more than you? At least I'm not the one deciding that everyone else must be arguing out of some bias that prevents them from thinking reasonably, spouting off cliches like "rabid dog," continually using demeaning language such asPRESUMABLY Maxwell Lord swore on the Boy Scout book and would not attack The JLA once they captured him (something he never stated and in fact galled Wonder Woman into believing he would do it again).,Telling my opponents Stop your childish whining. You sound like a third-grader with a skinned-up knee. What are you going to do, tell the teacher? or Quite frankly, you're merely interested in pissing contests and trying to play comic book lawyer., not to mention your refusal to read and respond to your opponent's points.

It's obvious you aren't so much interested in discussing the issue as you are in discussing and insulting your fellow posters. You don't know what anyone's "agenda" is, and you can't, so stop pretending that you do and you can.

Captain Jim

07-31-2005, 11:23 PM

Y'know, I think this thread has gone on long enough. People are simply repeating the same arguments over and over again and tempers are starting to flare. It was pretty obvious several pages ago that this was going to be an issue that people will not agree on.

For the record, I think Diana did the right thing, the only thing she could do under the circumstances. No arguments, just my opinion. As well as the opinion of the vast majority who participated in the poll, for which we thank you. Good night, everyone.

Buried Alien

08-07-2005, 09:38 AM

One of the things rumored (or maybe confirmed) to result from INFINITE CRISIS (and IDENTITY CRISIS) is that the superheroes of the DCU will split into three camps, each led by one of the Big Three (Superman, Batman, and Wonder Woman). The talk is that the Big Three and the heroes that follow each of them will never trust or think of each other as friends ever again.

That's interesting, although I can't say it hasn't been done before (KINGDOM COME, anyone?).

The thing is, is DC *sure* they want to do this permanently?

Because if INFINITE CRISIS lives up to its promise of being as far-reaching and momentuous as CRISIS ON INFINITE EARTHS, that could become the new status quo for at least the next twenty years.

Having the superheroes in conflict with each other from time to time makes for some interesting storytelling, but to have this animosity among them as a permanent, underlying condition seems...so un-DC-like.

What's most worrisome is if this new direction doesn't work out, there's no credible way to reverse it without another continuity reboot/retcon. The way it's being set up, the heroes can't just forgive and forget at some point in the future. The only way things can ever revert back to "normal" is to wipe it all out and reboot it again.

This worries me.

Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

protege

08-07-2005, 09:41 AM

If this is true, then it's one of the dumbest ideas I've ever heard of.

Expletive Deleted

08-07-2005, 11:05 AM

What's most worrisome is if this new direction doesn't work out, there's no credible way to reverse it without another continuity reboot/retcon. The way it's being set up, the heroes can't just forgive and forget at some point in the future.Nah. If they can plot-hammer them apart this way, they can plot-hammer them back together just as easily.

literally exaggerated

08-07-2005, 01:13 PM

Prior to Crisis (or at least, DKR), it would have been hard to imagine that Superman and Batman could be anything less than best friends forever. Crisis managed to turn that on its head fairly well, and with some exceptions, I think its worked pretty well to have the two of them work together and respect each other (for the most part) yet also have a fair bit of conflict in certain areas.

This is simply the next evolution of that, with WW thrown in. It can't, or at least won't, be direct and total conflict for any length of time. There are too many threats that will require their cooperation, too many writers who will want to have the eternal rivals Bats and Supes team up for some reason or another, too many editors and publishers seeing the cash value in putting the big 3 together again, too many fans clamoring to see it happen.

But it will probably lead to some more hostility, more distrust, deeper rivalries. And some of it will, undoubtedly, be crap. But in the hands of a good writer, it could be very good too. I'm a little wary, but also excited. I like imagining what a writer like Morrisson or Moore or Bendis could do with competing Superman and Batman, or WW/Batman interactions loaded with sexual tension and personal respect off-set by philosophical and ethical conflicts. Shifting alliances, factions, etc.

Guts/Batman

08-07-2005, 01:26 PM

I don't find it worrisome at all. If it is done right, it should end up done pretty damned good, IMO.

I wouldn't call it hate, more distrust and disagreement over philosophies.

And I doubt it will be permanant. The heros are going to outnumbered massively (or so I have heard) and they will have to put those differences aside if they want to survive.

Converge

08-07-2005, 02:07 PM

I wouldn't call it hate, more distrust and disagreement over philosophies.

I agree.

I think it could be a good idea. I think it could add a really cool and unique dynamic to the DCU.

Maybe they are planning something similar to Alan Moore's mythic Twilight of the Superheroes story that was never published.

LibrarianThorne

08-07-2005, 02:24 PM

Jesus...

This is the first I've heard of that, and if it's true, that saddens me. I stopped picking up Marvel because the books ceased being entertaining, in partiuclar, the X-books just started reading like an angsty teen's wet dream.

I pick up DC books because they're fun and entertaining. Dividing the superheroes into 3 camps on the verge of war is a great idea for an elseworlds, but it's not something I want to see in the DCU.

Would someone mind telling me when it became uncool to beat the bad guys?

Jkid099

08-07-2005, 03:44 PM

soda

08-07-2005, 10:29 PM

Actually, the way I figure it is that starting from the whole "Sacrifice" arc, Superman / Batman / Wonder Woman are on bad terms and won't really trust each other / work together well, etc. throughout a good portion of Infinite Crisis. The whole point of Infinite Crisis (as stated by Geoff Johns) is for them all to rediscover what it means to be a hero (as for the last two years, a lot of the DC heroes have been portrayed in less than "heroic" ideal). More than likely at the end of Infinite Crisis, the trio will "get over" their differences and work things out, then come together to kick the living crud out of whoever the Big Bad is.

I hope so, because, good, bad, or indifferent, for over 65 years of comics, the one universal constant in the DCU has been that, at the end of the day, they are all heroes, no matter how you slice them up. Batman can be tempermental, but he shouldn't be a total jerk, like he is now. Conflict is good, but it's always about saving the world, at the end of the day, and differences should always be put aside for that. I can't concieve of a world where Superman, Wonder Woman, and Batman are all at cross-purposes, because they're all heroes, and deep down inside, they all work for the same thing. That's the way it should be.

Paul Newell

08-07-2005, 10:32 PM

Buried Alien

08-07-2005, 11:04 PM

Where did you hear that and where was it confirmed? :confused:

Around. Possibly here at CBR or at DC's message forums (honestly don't remember; I don't keep track of *where* I read stuff). I know I didn't make it up; I'm not that creative.

I hope it's not true myself, but I remember some substantial talk about it somewhere.

Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

Paul Newell

08-07-2005, 11:14 PM

Around. Possibly here at CBR or at DC's message forums (honestly don't remember; I don't keep track of *where* I read stuff). I know I didn't make it up; I'm not that creative.

I hope it's not true myself, but I remember some substantial talk about it somewhere.

Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)
It must have been the DC Forums...Haven't heard that one before...At least, not around here.

What was the confirmation?

Buried Alien

08-07-2005, 11:18 PM

It must have been the DC Forums...Haven't heard that one before...At least, not around here.

What was the confirmation?

There is none. I'm not saying it's confirmed. I don't know that. The way it's been talked about, however, it seems to have gone beyond just "baseless rumor" stage. If it is a rumor, it's one with at least some basis (if only because nobody has completely dismissed it).

Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

chriskenny

08-07-2005, 11:24 PM

Babylon23

08-08-2005, 12:09 AM

Justin D.

08-08-2005, 12:19 AM

Never say never... or ever again. I like what ED said above.

If they can plot-hammer them apart this way, they can plot-hammer them back together just as easily.

In fact, that's very likely the appeal to many of the creators and editors that are part of this project. They want to see how well they can build the bridges back after they've been burned.

Buried Alien

08-08-2005, 12:26 AM

In fact, that's very likely the appeal to many of the creators and editors that are part of this project. They want to see how well they can build the bridges back after they've been burned.

I don't mind as long as they have plans to rebuild those bridges instead of leaving a charred ruin for somebody else to try to fix a generation later.

Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

Paul Newell

08-08-2005, 12:28 AM

The breaking up of the Big Three was confirmed by Rucka in a bunch of interviews... Sacrifice and Batman's feelings of distrust toward the Justice League are going to play a role in Superman, Batman, and Wonder Woman parting ways from each other...

Chris
I've heard that bit...I just hadn't heard the "Three Camps" and "never trust or be friends again" bit before.

davids

08-08-2005, 09:34 AM

One way is my old therory about wonder woman playing surogate mother for Clark and lois's baby[girl should be a girl!] How can you stay mad at Diana after that!

pureclint

08-08-2005, 10:28 AM

I don't mind as long as they have plans to rebuild those bridges instead of leaving a charred ruin for somebody else to try to fix a generation later.

Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

Every interview I have read hints that part of the big In Cri story does help to repair the bonds of friendship between the big three. It is the darkest day not only because hte Villians are united but because the Heroes are fractured, but it will not last.

protege

08-08-2005, 10:12 PM

I really have to wonder how this is going to affect the JLA- will any of the big three even be in it anymore?

Guts/Batman

08-08-2005, 10:15 PM

I really have to wonder how this is going to affect the JLA- will any of the big three even be in it anymore?

Well, after this current arc in JLA. Batman will definitely not be in the JLA. Dunno about Diana and Clark.

handOFfate

08-11-2005, 06:05 PM

What's going to happen to Superman/Batman?

Nick Kal

08-11-2005, 07:00 PM

What's going to happen to Superman/Batman?

I hope it continues with an arc where they're not working together but eventuall have to and then decided to keep going.

Ekko

08-11-2005, 09:06 PM

Why DC? I read in Wizard there are definately going to be problems with the Big 3, but as other people mentioned, I hoped it's repaired before the Crisis is over. I don't know, I just never have been to fond of the idea of "Heroes at Odds", much less DC's big 3. It may turn me off of DC for a while.

DMike

08-11-2005, 09:45 PM

What's going to happen to Superman/Batman?

I hope it continues with an arc where they're not working together but eventuall have to and then decided to keep going.

Of course that would require Loeb to keep up with and respect what's going on in other titles. I'm sure he'll have them as the bestest superfriends ever regardless of whatever happens in InfCri.

xnef1025

08-11-2005, 09:54 PM

Of course that would require Loeb to keep up with and respect what's going on in other titles. I'm sure he'll have them as the bestest superfriends ever regardless of whatever happens in InfCri.

Eh... what difference should it make anyway. How many times have heroes gotten mind controlled and tried to kill thier allies now? DCU Hallmark should have frickin' "Sorry I was possessed and tried to kill you" cards in the stores by now... maybe even a special edition teddy bear.

thik_3rd

08-12-2005, 12:00 AM

they could all wear little decoder rings to let each other know who they're down with.

really though, this could make for some interesting stories for about a year or two.

Paul Newell

08-12-2005, 12:07 AM

DCU Hallmark should have frickin' "Sorry I was possessed and tried to kill you" cards in the stores by now... maybe even a special edition teddy bear.
That's possessed and tries to kill you. :)

jadrax

08-12-2005, 05:58 AM

What's going to happen to Superman/Batman?They spend most of the time arguing and ignoring one another in that anyway ;o)

Joe Grendel

08-12-2005, 02:59 PM

This is one of the best ideas I've heard in comics ever.

Forget people being able to fly: The biggest fantasy in comics is that people who are in life-threatening professions all get along like happy little Cub Scouts. Soldiers, police officers, firefighters, you name it, when the stakes are so high, differences of opinion can mean lives saved or lost, and the type-A personalities involved tend to get in each others' faces about it, once off the field.

The Superman/Batman Best Friends Forever jazz pre-Crisis was deeply dopey, and I applauded when they were given a more realistic relationship in "Man of Steel." Wonder Woman, who has been in Superman's ideological shadow for far too long, is finally getting her own voice (which started, for my money, with "Kingdom Come," although I know George Perez laid the groundwork for a lot of it in his relaunch of the character). I think a three way ideological split makes great sense.

I don't think it's at all likely that this will actively interfere with the heroes doing their jobs -- they all have more or less the same end goal, after all -- but seeing different factions of heroes operating differently makes wonderful sense, and I look forward to seeing how everyone lines up behind different members of the Big Three. I suspect it'll end up being pretty surprising seeing who does and doesn't join up from the second and lower tiers. I expect each "family" -- Superman, Batman, JLA -- will have some surprising crossovers. I wouldn't be in the least surprised to see Superboy more aligned with Wonder Woman and Robin more in tune with Superman, for instance.

Good stuff, DC (if this is true). :D

chicagokmc

08-14-2005, 06:42 AM

I hope so, because, good, bad, or indifferent, for over 65 years of comics, the one universal constant in the DCU has been that, at the end of the day, they are all heroes, no matter how you slice them up. Batman can be tempermental, but he shouldn't be a total jerk, like he is now. Conflict is good, but it's always about saving the world, at the end of the day, and differences should always be put aside for that. I can't concieve of a world where Superman, Wonder Woman, and Batman are all at cross-purposes, because they're all heroes, and deep down inside, they all work for the same thing. That's the way it should be.

and i think this is still the case now. they just have entirely different ways they go about doing it. i don't think they are at cross-purposes, they still want "good" at the end of the day. i think wonder woman's handling of max lord shows this. she didn't do what she did to be evil but because she felt it was for the good of things at the end of the day. bats probably would have handled things differently because he abhors killing, whereas ww who is from a warrior island feels differently.

to me, it's more like real life. it is extremely common for team members not to see eye to eye (i.e. congress, sports teams) but be able to co-exist to meet the same objective.

Wonder Dude

08-15-2005, 11:26 AM

I see Nightwing aligning with the Wonder Woman camp based on his reactions with the Joker. Not sure how the Blockbuster issue is going to affect that however.

We R. Venom

08-18-2005, 03:30 PM

If this is true, then it's one of the dumbest ideas I've ever heard of.

you got that right!

davids

08-28-2005, 08:48 AM

Killing Maxwell Lord? How about LOIS LANE! Daughter of a carea army officer she would understand the need to kill to defend what is good in the world. Saved her husband, a really big reason why she would be gratefull and understand ge reasons for doing it! Any one else?

The Shadow

08-28-2005, 10:10 AM

she would understand the need to kill to defend what is good in the world
... you do know she's married to SUPERMAN... the big blue boyscout that DOES NOT kill... ever (except the 3 rogue Kryptonians... but Zod is back anyway).

I don't think she would condone it because of her fathers career choice either... they had a strained relationship for years, he worked closely with Luthor AND his death, shortly after they healed some old wounds, was a result of his career. If anything she would likely oppose it.

prand_2002

08-28-2005, 10:22 AM

I am sure at the moment Katanna,Hawkman and maybe Green arrow will support her.

Phoney Bone

08-28-2005, 11:21 AM

Wally West, The Flash.

Because he understood why Barry Allen had to kill Prof. Zoom to save one person, he will understand why Wonder Woman killed Max Lord to save an untold number of innocents.

literally exaggerated

08-28-2005, 12:13 PM

The only one who is going to completely and utterly outright condemn her is Batman, because he's a self-righteous dick like that. Supes won't agree with what she did, but he'll be much more understanding.

Mike Smash!

08-28-2005, 12:17 PM

Am I weird in thinking that Guy Gardner is most likely to wind up supporting Wonder Woman?

He cannot stand Batman and isn't fond of Superman. During their time in JLA together, Wonder Woman treated him with respect to the point that he'd follow her orders without giving her crap. And I can't see him blaming her for the thing with Max.

Karl J. Barnes

08-28-2005, 12:20 PM

Cassie, Power Girl. I actually see a lot of heroes supporting her, especially Booster and the rest of the old Giffen League.

d00m

08-28-2005, 01:23 PM

I think Supergirl is likely to support her actions, even though she is Superman's coz.

The Shadow

08-28-2005, 02:38 PM

I am sure at the moment Katanna,Hawkman and maybe Green arrow will support her.
Yeah... good list there!

trickster

08-28-2005, 03:20 PM

I think Supergirl is likely to support her actions, even though she is Superman's coz.

I kinda see it happening too.

mattx110

08-28-2005, 03:38 PM

every single green lantern would support her. they understand murderers and mass-murderers more than any hero because they deal with more criminals bent on destroying planets and universes. hal was was close to barry when the whole reverse-flash thing happened. i think he acted as a character witness in the trial. guy has recently been a lot less of an idiot in the last couple years for most writers.

kyle had to deal with parallax a few times. john stewart has dealt with eclipso and currently comes from a combination between his relationship with hal jordan and the mosiac thing. i doubt he'd support shoving max into a coma or cutting him off from the world to try to rehabilitate him. but if he needed to be killed john would see the reasoning.

batman even has been ready to kill the joker and didn't even when he had access to nuclear weapons. i think max being able to do more damage than that with batmans toys would cause batman to turn around and say "there was no other way". despite being antikilling, he also isn't supposed to be an idiot. he'd have no problem with gordon killing someone to protect himself or others, but people who defend the world aren't able to use lethal force as a last option?

bannermanonemillion

08-28-2005, 05:23 PM

My problem with the whole pro-killing argument is that in the DCU dead villains last as long as Courtney Love's sobriety.

You kill him now and who's to say they won't get resurrected or that time/space doesn't get shifted and they reappear or SOMETHING.

The good stay dead and the bad keep coming back.

You wanna guess why Batman looks so PO'd all the time?

Karl J. Barnes

08-28-2005, 05:35 PM

You wanna guess why Batman looks so PO'd all the time?

Besides the chronic constipation??

Sean Whitmore

08-28-2005, 06:08 PM

The good stay dead and the bad keep coming back.

Ollie, Hal, Carter, Dove, and Jason have all come back in, like, the last five years. So the villains don't have the market cornered on that. :)

SEAN

Boomstick King

08-28-2005, 06:28 PM

Booster Gold for obvious reasons

the*shpongelettes

08-28-2005, 10:10 PM

the huntress, hitman, and the inferior five to the mix.

the shpongelettes
( eva fangoria, cyndi sure man, makosi )

The Joker

08-29-2005, 09:16 AM

The Flash, Booster Gold, Cassie, and possibly Green Arrow.

da noble savage

08-29-2005, 06:50 PM

I don't anybody should support her cause they shouldn't have made her do it.
I mean if it was ok to kill max why wasn't it ok to kill supes,she held back and still was able to hand him his ass. I'm sure she could have came up with another way to deal with max. But of course the writers decided she should.

Sean Whitmore

08-29-2005, 06:54 PM

I mean if it was ok to kill max why wasn't it ok to kill supes,she held back and still was able to hand him his ass.

Well, first, Superman didn't do anything wrong. He was a victim. Secondly, she hardly scored a decisive victory. The best she can claim is that she fended him off long enough to get to Max.

SEAN

Guts/Batman

09-02-2005, 11:28 PM

Just what the title implies, how much of the blame goes on Batman's shoulder's for what happens in "The OMAC Project"?

pureclint

09-02-2005, 11:36 PM

Personally I dont not blame the gun or the guns creator when some one gets shot or the car or cars creator when a drunk driver hits some one.

Batman was the victim of a crime, the theft of his personal item and the perp of said crime used it for malicous intent.

Batman also had NOTHING to do with creating the OMACS themselves that was Luthor.

Now that does not mean Batman did not make mistakes but the guilt goes in Max's shoudlers in my eyes.

da noble savage

09-02-2005, 11:40 PM

Ravenheart

09-03-2005, 06:56 AM

If they do go that route and all the heroes split into 3 camps,it'll be interesting to see who goes where and if any regret their decisions.I'm looking forward to seeing what happens because I just recently got back into DC after not reading them for years.

Alan2099

09-03-2005, 08:31 AM

J. Roberts

09-03-2005, 11:32 AM

let's see, Martian Manhunter created files on all the super humans, they were stold and used against everybody. Batman created files on how to kill the JLA, they were stold and used against them, Batman created more files and machines to watch and keep track of all the super human. Guess what happens?

You think he would have learned after the second time.

Eh, it's a genre convention. It's sort of like arguing that Batman should just kill the Joker instead of sticking him in the revolving door of Arkham Asylum--I mean, it would be logical to do that, but the continuing story demands that Joker gets out again so we can get more Joker stories. In the same way, the creation of any safeguard by the hero pretty much guarantees a later story where the safeguard is breached, the plan is stolen by the villain, etc.

Deathlok

09-03-2005, 11:46 AM

Everything is Batmans fault these days!
He is like DCs summer student.....if anything goes wrong, blame the summer student.
:p

Lex

09-03-2005, 12:28 PM

Batman's fault? Nah, I blame Greg Rucka.

DavidQ!

09-03-2005, 01:02 PM

One of my favorite Quotes in tv history of all time has to be.

"When you give a chimp a gun, and the chimp shoots somebody you dont blame the chimp."

I blame batman it was because of arrogance that Blue Beetle is dead along with a couple others whom I dont much care for.

Sabrinaset

09-03-2005, 01:23 PM

In the next issue of Batman, the blame for the Brother I/OMACS get placed squarely on Dr. Lesly Thomkins.

Alan2099

09-03-2005, 02:08 PM

Oh come on. NOTHING is batman's falt these days. Anytime it is, the blame just gets shifted to his supporting cast.

It was obviously Alfred's fault for not reminding him to secure the mainframe better, or possibly Gordon's fault for not specially calling him on the phone and saying "Batman, Do NOT make a super computer that could be used to kill every hero on earth."

See? Totally Not batman's fault.

protege

09-03-2005, 02:23 PM

Sabrinaset

09-03-2005, 04:15 PM

When were the Martian Manhunter's foldersstolen? JLA year one?

Yeah, by the Appallaxians, who then used the information to capture every super-hero (they never capture the villains, hmm) and place them all in some prison somewhere.

Babylon23

09-03-2005, 07:30 PM

Since Geoff Johns has stated that IC is about the heroes rediscovering their heroism, I'm sure the split will only last until the end of IC.
Dividing the heroes' forces can be a major plot device in big storylines. If the big 3 and their respective "families" are factionalised, this would weaken their defences, allowing the villains to strike. The basic "divide and conquer" theory. I wouldn't be surprised if the heroes are divided leading into IC, and that they overcome the Crisis by uniting once more.

davids

09-03-2005, 08:34 PM

Diana did the right thing! She did what she had to do because she cares for you and because she had no other choice! She did it for you, for me and the rest of the world. And if i was facing the same question i would have killed the bastard!

So go find her and tell her you understand and she will always be her friend. Or get used to the idea of sleeping on the couch for the next six months! You over grown Boy scout!

Gingold

09-04-2005, 09:47 AM

'Cause if it is, you would think he'd be just a tad more sympathetic to Diana. I can buy Bruce's reaction to her, but Clark's? More than anything else, I'd think he'd feel guilty for being (somewhat) responsible for putting Diana in that position.

Or...is it the fact that Diana didn't seem to be filled with guilt and dismay over her actions that got Clark upset?

DMike

09-04-2005, 12:03 PM

I'm pretty sure it was referenced rather recently in one of the books, so yeah it's in continuity.

Tony Bang

09-04-2005, 12:14 PM

Or...is it the fact that Diana didn't seem to be filled with guilt and dismay over her actions that got Clark upset?

I'am sure that's why he's mad. After he killed Zod and the crew, didn't he exile himself into space?

Jkid099

09-04-2005, 12:15 PM

Yes it is. It was pretty much the basis of Maxwell Lord being able to take control of him. A couple years ago, when we had one of the newer (and fumbled) Zod "incarnations" Supes went through this whole "guilt trip" phase in regard to him. It was revealed in the recent "Sacrifice" arc that Superman, who was so dedicated to saving and preserving all life, was traumatized by his actions and put up mental blocks to prevent him from ever killing again. Maxwell Lord spent years telepathically manipulating these blocks and years in his attempt to create a psychotic episode in Superman's mind that would allow Max to get him to do anything ... and kill anyone. Martian Manhunter pointed out that the trauma from killing the Phantom Zone criminals was so extensive that it would cause his mind to perhaps be lost if anyone tried to undo the manipulations Max Lord made.

Gingold

09-04-2005, 01:24 PM

Thanks. That's what I get for not reading all of Sacrifice.

I still don't care for Clark's reaction to Diana, but I imagine we haven't ever scratched the surface of that story yet.

Eliseu Gouveia

09-04-2005, 02:11 PM

Great.
So, basically the trilogy is constituted by two loons and a killer. :p

Lex

09-04-2005, 02:15 PM

I'd prefer that it wasn't in continuity anymore... but unfortunately it is.

Sean Whitmore

09-04-2005, 03:12 PM

I still don't care for Clark's reaction to Diana, but I imagine we haven't ever scratched the surface of that story yet.

Well, think of it like those drug commercials where the parents are afraid of being called hypocrites. Just because you smoked pot (or killed a super villain) doesn't mean you shouldn't tell your kids (teammates) that they shouldn't smoke pot (kill super villains). :)

SEAN

Kevinroc

09-04-2005, 03:16 PM

Well, think of it like those drug commercials where the parents are afraid of being called hypocrites. Just because you smoked pot (or killed a super villain) doesn't mean you shouldn't tell your kids (teammates) that they shouldn't smoke pot (kill super villains). :)

SEAN

Is it wrong that after reading this post, I suddenly imagined Batman smoking pot and actually being mellow?

Sean Whitmore

09-04-2005, 03:17 PM

Is it wrong that after reading this post, I suddenly imagined Batman smoking pot and actually being mellow?

Hell, he could use some. Otherwise one of these days he's headed straight for the crazy ho--

--oops.

SEAN

Kevinroc

09-04-2005, 03:19 PM

Hell, he could use some. Otherwise one of these days he's headed straight for the crazy ho--

--oops.

SEAN

Weed. It actually makes some people less paranoid. :p

The Joker

09-04-2005, 03:24 PM

Weed. It actually makes some people less paranoid. :p

Thats true. :D

Taskmaster

09-04-2005, 03:54 PM

It's just like Booster said in Countdown, it's Batman's fault, but its not like he'll ever get the blame, the jerk. Batman is an ass

literally exaggerated

09-04-2005, 04:11 PM

As others have said, he didn't do this, he didn't even give the people the stuff to do this. he built this device for a completely different purpose, it was stolen from him and used for evil. So he didn't give a chimp a gun, the chimp broke in and stole the gun.

I blame hims somewhat for his treatment of Ted. Thats it.

Guts/Batman

09-04-2005, 04:15 PM

It's just like Booster said in Countdown, it's Batman's fault, but its not like he'll ever get the blame, the jerk. Batman is an ass

Small nitpick. He said that in OMAC #2.

RabidWolfe

09-04-2005, 04:53 PM

Weed. It actually makes some people less paranoid. :p

But some of us NEED to be paranoid. Just because I'm paranoid doesn't mean they aren't out to get me!!!! :eek: :eek: :eek:

Emerald Ghost

09-04-2005, 05:38 PM

But some of us NEED to be paranoid. Just because I'm paranoid doesn't mean they aren't out to get me!!!! :eek: :eek: :eek:

Paranoia means they aren't out to get you, because to be paranoid is to have an illusion that others mean to harm you, but it isn't so.

SO, since you are paranoid, that means you are safe, nothing to worry about.

Sean Whitmore

09-04-2005, 05:41 PM

Weed. It actually makes some people less paranoid. :p

If Batman toked a bit, the Brother Eye satellite wouldn't have gotten past the planning stages. He'd have been too fascinated looking at his cape, or something.

SEAN

Kevinroc

09-04-2005, 06:06 PM

If Batman toked a bit, the Brother Eye satellite wouldn't have gotten past the planning stages. He'd have been too fascinated looking at his cape, or something.

SEAN

Considering how often Batman's plans fall into the wrong hands, it'd probably be safer for the DCU if Batman did start smoking weed.

Sabrinaset

09-04-2005, 06:29 PM

Considering how often Batman's plans fall into the wrong hands, it'd probably be safer for the DCU if Batman did start smoking weed.

Later that night, in the JLA Watchtower...

BATS: Yo, Plastic Man! Y'all ever really CHECK OUT the Clock Kings costume? I mean, like, DUUUUDE! He has a clock for a face!

PLAS: (To Flash) What is going on with Caped?

FLASH: I dunno, but whatever is in the coffee Dr. Thomkins has been sending up here has really changed Bruce...

BATS: Na na na na na na na na BAT-MAAAAAAAN!

IamtheRock3

09-04-2005, 07:42 PM

It's just like Booster said in Countdown, it's Batman's fault, but its not like he'll ever get the blame, the jerk. Batman is an ass

Actully he ALL ways get confronter. It be issues upound issuing explain why Batman a Jerk

Superman makes some Killing Robots, The Vanishing machine and it NEVER MENTION AGAIN. I mean EVER.

Max All ready knew Supes ID and been working on him secretly for years. Something that actully JUSTIFY bats paranoia

He didnt do the Omacs

He Did the Satalite That made the Omacs more EFFICENT. He an F up for that. But not for the other stuff.

Gingold

09-04-2005, 08:14 PM

Petertime

09-05-2005, 03:51 PM

BATS: Na na na na na na na na BAT-MAAAAAAAN!

Christ that is a funny visual.
To hell with lol, I'm almost in tears here Sabrinaset.

thanks for the laugh

YoungG03

09-05-2005, 04:25 PM

What the hell is going on...What did Batman make? What was his reason?

If its the same as what he did in JLA its really hard to hang with this guy. I prob say "to hell wit keepin your enimes closer" and let him go on wit his ways. Just call him when one REALLY needs him.

trickster

09-05-2005, 04:40 PM

I'd say Bats is partially to blame for Beetle's death, as he had an idea of what Beetle was getting into and blew him off. He's also partially to blame for Sasha becoming whatever the hell it is that she's become, since shes got involved with Checkmate when she was trying to protect him back in BW:Murderer/Fugitive. I wouldn't blame him for the OMACs themselves or for Superman getting mind controlled or Dimitri's death, though.

And how the hell is Sasha being imprisoned Batman's fault? Before you make a statement at least know what you're talking about. They both ended in prison because David Cain set Bruce up with the murder of Vesper Fairchild. And Sasha could have gotten out of prison but to do that she had to reveal Batman's identity which being faithful to him, she refused to do.

And I don't see nobody blaming Superman for the android that killed Donna Troy. Hmm... could that be bias?

We R. Venom

09-05-2005, 05:02 PM

Yeah, if any thing messed up happens in IC, i blame bats.

Gingold

09-05-2005, 07:00 PM

Before you make a statement at least know what you're talking about.

Before you make a statement, try not to come off like a condescending asshole.

Anyhoo, while it's not necessarily Batman's fault that Sasha ended up in prison leading to her joining Checkmate, becoming a cyborg-thingie, etc., etc., I'd say he bears some responsibilitiy for what happened. If it wasn't for his association with her, it wouldn't have happened. (Hence I wrote "partially").

Paul Newell

09-05-2005, 07:39 PM

Guys, settle down. You can debate without insulting.

Zero Hunter

09-05-2005, 07:43 PM

I would love to see more of the b level guys telling off both Batman and Superman. They have both made monster screwups that have caused other heroes their lives. It would be interesting to see both of them have to earn the respect back from the rest of the heroes for some of the idiotic things they have done like Brother I, the Supermen robots, and other stuff.

Alan2099

09-05-2005, 07:53 PM

Guys, settle down. You can debate without insulting.
Yeah? well... well... you're stupid and nobody likes you!

(Just messing with ya'. No offense.)

Taskmaster

09-05-2005, 09:23 PM

Small nitpick. He said that in OMAC #2.
Oops good call, my bad

Taskmaster

09-05-2005, 09:28 PM

And how the hell is Sasha being imprisoned Batman's fault? Before you make a statement at least know what you're talking about. They both ended in prison because David Cain set Bruce up with the murder of Vesper Fairchild. And Sasha could have gotten out of prison but to do that she had to reveal Batman's identity which being faithful to him, she refused to do.

And I don't see nobody blaming Superman for the android that killed Donna Troy. Hmm... could that be bias?

No bias here, I think both Batman and Superman are condescending jerks who think far to highly of themselves (Superman's bad, but Batman's far worse). They lecture and punish heroes for stuff they themselves have done (Think Wonder Woman's killing Max was any different than Superman killing the Phantom Zone psychos, but look at Supes and Bats reactions) they both need to be taken down a peg in my humble opinion

Guts/Batman

09-05-2005, 09:30 PM

No bias here, I think both Batman and Superman are condescending jerks who think far to highly of themselves (Superman's bad, but Batman's far worse). They lecture and punish heroes for stuff they themselves have done (Think Wonder Woman's killing Max was any different than Superman killing the Phantom Zone psychos, but look at Supes and Bats reactions) they both need to be taken down a peg in my humble opinion

Seconded.

*character limit dance*

IamtheRock3

09-06-2005, 05:01 AM

oh dont think batman was a nice guy
But he does get called on his Bs more often then most icon. Heck his batfamily does it all the time..so did leslie and alfred

I mean he did get KICKED out first time he did it. Well other didnt for there first offense

Second time..they tried to kill him

Gl Rebirth got laid the heck out and told off through the entire book

War games- shoot on sight orders. Although still argue how much of war games was actully his fault..but the point is he got called for it. They didnt just move on unlike...some other heroes.

So he does get called out sometime to much..stress out his jerky moments and kind of beat a dead horse sometimes. I actullly been a huge focuse of late

DMike

09-06-2005, 08:27 AM

And I don't see nobody blaming Superman for the android that killed Donna Troy. Hmm... could that be bias?

Starfire rightfully placed the blame on him in that Teen Titans issue where they clash with the JLA.

Gingold

09-06-2005, 01:56 PM

Sorry for being kinda testy earlier. (Reminds self not to post after drinking again).

Guts/Batman

09-06-2005, 01:59 PM

Sorry for being kinda testy earlier. (Reminds self not to post after drinking again).

Nah. I thought he came off as condesending as well.

da noble savage

09-06-2005, 02:25 PM

so if i make a kick ass clock and somebody steals it and attach's it to a bomb and kill's a bunch of people it's my fault right.

Alan2099

09-06-2005, 03:09 PM

Yes. You never should have made a kick ass clock that's easily attached to a bomb. What's wrong with you?

Guts/Batman

09-06-2005, 03:10 PM

Yes. You never should have made a kick ass clock that's easily attached to a bomb. What's wrong with you?

Maybe the clock is some small, super secret spy satellite! :D

Andy S.

09-06-2005, 03:19 PM

Batman also had NOTHING to do with creating the OMACS themselves that was Luthor.
.

I didn't know Lex Luthor was the one who actually designed the OMACs.
When/ what issues was this established?

Guts/Batman

09-06-2005, 03:21 PM

I didn't know Lex Luthor was the one who actually designed the OMACs.
When/ what issues was this established?

It hasn't been said yet but there is lots of speculation that there was a connection between Max Lord when he was head of Checkmate and Luthor when he was President.

Jkid099

09-06-2005, 03:25 PM

It hasn't been confirmed that it actually WAS Lex Luthor who designed them. It's an assumption based on the information revealed in OMAC Project #5.

In that issue it was revealed that the OMACs were the result of a technological virus formed from the Brainiac-13 technology that the Luthorcorp acquired and patented after Brainiac 13 transformed Metropolis into the "City of Tomorrow" back in 2000. After Lex became President, a lot of America's armaments were updated with Brainiac-13 technology (as seen in the "Our Worlds at War" crossover).

According to OMAC #5, the B-13 tech used to form the "OMAC virus" was acquired from "Lexcorp / DOD (Department of Defense)". Now, within the last few months (year or two real time) DC time, Metropolis reverted back to normal and all the B-13 tech was presumably sent back to the future. Not much of it had been seen in use outside of Metropolis since "Our Worlds at War" anyway. So it would be safe to say that if un-modified B-13 tech. was sent back to the future, then Max would have had to acquire it prior to Lex going "insane" and leaving the Presidency.

This isn't an incorrect assumption as it was suggested that Max had been putting years of work into his manipulation of Superman, so it's possible he got the B-13 tech. from some contacts in the U.S. government.

More than likely it will be revealed whether or not Luthor had any direct involvement in the OMAC Project itself at a later date. Right now it's all conjecture.

IamtheRock3

09-06-2005, 04:01 PM

all ways took it as Batman took the Satalite when he took over Luthor corp

And figure "Hey a Satalite..time to get A spying"

So responbillity speaking if he created or not doesnt make a differnce on the morality part of it..sense he still used it. Could destroyed it if he felt like it.

Guts/Batman

09-06-2005, 04:06 PM

Batman took the satellite from Luthor? Countdown had him getting parts for it through Ted's company. Massive amount of parts. Though that is conceivable.

I think it's pretty clear that he made that bad boy from scratch. Though I wish we had a reliable timeline when he did it.

We know he did it between post-IDC (or whenever he figured out when he was mindwiped, has that been explained?) and Sacrifice. I heard that it was answered in Outsiders #21 but I can't find it. I'll have to get the TPB that's in to get it.

Between the time when Batman developed/hacked/whatever it and Countdown, Max found it and took it over.

Then there is what Alan said.

Alan2099

09-06-2005, 04:17 PM

Guts/Batman

09-06-2005, 04:21 PM

*sighs* I hate current DCU continuity... :evilangry

Guts/Batman

09-06-2005, 04:27 PM

I'm still trying to figure out when Max went bad. Unless they are saying that allm the Formerly Known as and Super Buddies stuff is suddenly out of Continuity, Max hasn't been evil for the years it would have taken him to develop that stuff.

I'm betting that is the case. In continuity he is a cyborg, right? So if those are in continuity, he was a cyborg. (Yes, I know what DiDio said about that from reading it from the first Death Spiral thread).

That would be the only way to explain him not being a cyborg. Evil is another thing I can't answer.

Christopher O

09-06-2005, 04:29 PM

so if i make a kick ass clock and somebody steals it and attach's it to a bomb and kill's a bunch of people it's my fault right.
Batman didn't create a clock or a gun, as that seems to the popular analogy. He created an AI unit capable of independent action and designed specifically to monitor the activities and catalogue the vital information of super-humans, which is an utter invasion of privacy. Batman's creation is now a global threat, so I'd say Batman bears quite a bit of responsibility for this fiasco, especially considering this isn't the first time he's pulled something like this with disastrous results.

da noble savage

09-06-2005, 06:17 PM

Batman didn't create a clock or a gun, as that seems to the popular analogy. He created an AI unit capable of independent action and designed specifically to monitor the activities and catalogue the vital information of super-humans, which is an utter invasion of privacy. Batman's creation is now a global threat, so I'd say Batman bears quite a bit of responsibility for this fiasco, especially considering this isn't the first time he's pulled something like this with disastrous results.

Well acttally I don't think it was capable of independent action when he designed it I think that was something max added. And so what eraseing a guys mind that's not a invasion of privacy.

Guts/Batman

09-06-2005, 06:22 PM

Well acttally I don't think it was capable of independent action when he designed it I think that was something max added. And so what eraseing a guys mind that's not a invasion of privacy.

It was Semi-Autonomous AI. So, there was a risk of it running out of control even if Max didn't hack it and it was let be.

IamtheRock3

09-06-2005, 06:32 PM

well privact of other people never been a HUGE concern for bats

da noble savage

09-06-2005, 06:33 PM

It was Semi-Autonomous AI. So, there was a risk of it running out of control even if Max didn't hack it and it was let be.

hmm ok my bad. Wonder why he made it have ai if it was just watching peeps.
I probally would have just went back and kicked all there ass for whipeing my memory. But that's me not batman.

Guts/Batman

09-06-2005, 06:36 PM

hmm ok my bad. Wonder why he made it have ai if it was just watching peeps.
I probally would have just went back and kicked all there ass for whipeing my memory. But that's me not batman.

I'm assuming this is pre-war games Batdick.

You know how paranoid Bruce is... :p

da noble savage

09-06-2005, 06:53 PM

I'm assuming this is pre-war games Batdick.

You know how paranoid Bruce is... :p

Ya but u think that paranoia would let to a none smart watch dog.
Or mabye i'm just paranoid from watching to much matrixs. lol

Guts/Batman

09-06-2005, 06:57 PM

Ya but u think that paranoia would let to a none smart watch dog.
Or mabye i'm just paranoid from watching to much matrixs. lol

I dunno...this is Bruce we are talking about here. A person who has had 6 plot device level weapons fall into the hands of Ra's Al Ghul.

da noble savage

09-06-2005, 07:04 PM

I dunno...this is Bruce we are talking about here. A person who has had 6 plot device level weapons fall into the hands of Ra's Al Ghul.

ya but those where all files none of them where a.i.. I don't know i just figured he would be to parnoid to trust anybody but himself that much power and trusting a.i. is like trustin a person mostlly anyway. Of course this is just my opion of batman i'm not a writer so guess it don't count.lol

Guts/Batman

09-06-2005, 07:13 PM

ya but those where all files none of them where a.i.. I don't know i just figured he would be to parnoid to trust anybody but himself that much power and trusting a.i. is like trustin a person mostlly anyway. Of course this is just my opion of batman i'm not a writer so guess it don't count.lol

You're right. But even some jobs are too big for Batman. I believe he said so in OMAC #2, when he was telling Superman, WW and Booster about his mindwipe and the creation of Brother MK1.

IIRC, he said he couldn't do it by himself.

Also, Batman's arrogance let's him think he can control everything. You remember how War Games started? He created Brother MK1, he probably thinks he would be under control it no matter the case.

da noble savage

09-07-2005, 06:15 PM

You're right. But even some jobs are too big for Batman. I believe he said so in OMAC #2, when he was telling Superman, WW and Booster about his mindwipe and the creation of Brother MK1.

IIRC, he said he couldn't do it by himself.

Also, Batman's arrogance let's him think he can control everything. You remember how War Games started? He created Brother MK1, he probably thinks he would be under control it no matter the case.

ya i guess that makes sense i haven't read war games duh. Alot of guys complain bout it on here duh is it really that bad.

Guts/Batman

09-07-2005, 06:20 PM

ya i guess that makes sense i haven't read war games duh. Alot of guys complain bout it on here duh is it really that bad.

War Games was started when Stephanie (Robin IV/Spoiler) implemented one of his "War Games" plans to take over Gotham if necessary.

He has more than earned his title of Post War Games Batdick.

IamtheRock3

09-07-2005, 08:10 PM

to be fair his plan was something he had no though of using. Something he knew was a bad idea, and even then Steph did the plan wrong.

Kind of Like the PRETENDER when the bad guys keep using all Jarod blue prints for evil, or say if a CIA agent sole rumsfeld War Games design that was never meant to be use and used it.

Again batman a dick..but more for bad security reasons.

Guts/Batman

09-07-2005, 08:16 PM

mr_street

09-07-2005, 10:50 PM

what if the weed made him more paranoid?

Lorendiac

09-08-2005, 12:50 AM

Paranoia means they aren't out to get you, because to be paranoid is to have an illusion that others mean to harm you, but it isn't so.

SO, since you are paranoid, that means you are safe, nothing to worry about.

Suppose for the sake of argument that I were Batman and suppose I believed a dozen different government agencies were out to get me . . . and the correct figure was only six? The CIA, the NSA, the FBI, the Department of Homeland Security, and two secret agencies that nobody has ever heard of? But the other six agencies I was afraid of actually couldn't care less about me?

Would that mean I was not paranoid because I believed a bunch of government agencies with thousands and thousands of people on their payrolls were out to get me, and this was generally true?

Or would it mean that I was paranoid, because I mistakenly thought six other agencies were out to get me even though they weren't?

Or would it mean I was only half-paranoid because half of my beliefs on this subject were illusionary and the other half were based on solid evidence?

BoosterBronze

09-08-2005, 12:38 PM

I am reminded of the great Nighthawk/Hyperion confrontation in Squadron Supreme #12, where Nighthawk tells Hyperion off, saying that even though the Squadron has the best intentions in mind as they created their utopian measures, what they were doing was curtailing people's liberty, and because of that, their measures had a larger capability of evil than an actual effect for good. He finished with something like "Your plan only works if the people behind it are always perfectly benevolent." (all paraphrased from memory)

Sounds like Batman should listen a little more to his thinly disguised doplleganger.

IamtheRock3

09-08-2005, 02:25 PM

That true about War Games. He didn't plan to use but still, if that is the case; then why even have that kind of thing just lying around?

It's exactly like Brother MK1. Why have something that dangerous even around?

And if Orpheus (sp?) would have lived, the plan may have gone to plan but when does that ever happen with Batman? :p

Yes Again mention is F ups security base. the war games by itself isnt really that leathal of a plan. It was one elment missing that f it up. So why batman responble he doesnt take that much. So again he not more responble then say if a Fellow CIA agent take a War games Plan from another CIA agent who orginaly was just going to use it to get a high score on Socom.

Also we know it comics..not matter what security it is..it getting out.

IamtheRock3

09-08-2005, 02:27 PM

also to be fair on the Orpheus thing..the cops DID give him the go ahead.

IamtheRock3

09-16-2005, 03:12 PM

know I talked about this before...but decided a place that not As batman Friendly as a Batman board

Anyone notice a double standard against batman

AT Dc and to some fans to

People all ways say he should get called out for the thing he done. But he Does a lot. People all ways calling him Crazy, occasinonly the bat family would scream at him, he gets fired (the First time he did it not the second), Knocked out for smack talk, heroes try to kill him, mindwipe him because they think he cant be trusted with the truth

Now, His old sidekikc want him dead, Cops want him dead, being yelled and screamed at, City falling apart, Hush whupping his butt, has no one to turn to now, may have a bad end during criis

So he getting called out, knock down a few notches. In fact when it come to ICONS..he get his share of butt kickings. He just move on from then

but MEANWHILE

superman cause donna death (who granted complain about a little), takes over the world a couple of times, Let his robots escape again, Acklowedge he didnt care about innocent when he though Lois died (said it when he faught WW), And lets not forget the Vanishing made millions dissapear for a year (got some killed when Zod was there),ingore the JLA warning about that mind you..and let and let

NOBODY said ANYTHING about it ounce that story was over. NO ONE. And they wont . Heck After he killed the 3 kryptons (something I have no beef against) didnt he lose his mind and made a punisher like split personaliy

Even before Hal "The Devil made me do it" excuse..most heroes let him slide for his actions and trusted him. Heck got mad at Batman when he mistrust him

Not saying Batman shouldnt be called out. But if you do it for him..dont you got to do it for EVERY hero across the board

A lot of other jerky charcter. It just the writers dont make there jerkness the thrust of the story. They do something jerky and move on

Guts/Batman

09-16-2005, 10:51 PM

Batman is being jerky for a specific reason right now. They are intentionally writing him as jerky as possible.

And when they feel like writing him less jerky, they will intentionally write him less jerky.

I think fans have pissed and moaned all the "double standard" crap against Batman at least since War Games started.

DC will stop writing BatDick when the situation calls for it. Until then, we're stuck with him.

Bored at 3:00AM

09-17-2005, 02:25 AM

All of Superman's crazy moments were caused by mental manipulation by either Brainiac or Max Lord or Dominus or Dr.Psycho or...uh... Prof. Mind-Screw, whereas Batman seemed to be acting like a dick for no good reason other than he felt was smarter and richer than everyone else so he should be able to act as arrogant and rude as he wants.

However, now, I think Batman does have an excuse thanks to the JLA mindwipe, which likely caused him to become more paranoid and obsessive than he normally would be.

At least that's how I explain it all away in my head. 'Cause I used to really like Batman, but he's been a world champion jerk for the past decade.

IamtheRock3

09-17-2005, 04:09 PM

trickster

09-17-2005, 05:44 PM

Actully the ones I refering to werent mind control
The Vanishing
And the Robots

Were all supes

Not to mention that he knew about Batman being mindwiped and the big wuss/hypocrite didn't do squat. Like Green Arrow said "Clark hears what he wants to hear".

Bored at 3:00AM

09-17-2005, 11:05 PM

Actully the ones I refering to werent mind control
The Vanishing
And the Robots

Were all supes

The Vanishing now appears to be part of Max Lord's mental tinkerings with Superman's head. In other words, the Vanishing never happened. Lois never disappeared. Superman did.

The Superman Robots were created when Superman was being controlled by Dominus, which Brainiac later stole to wreak havoc with.

Bored at 3:00AM

09-17-2005, 11:07 PM

Not to mention that he knew about Batman being mindwiped and the big wuss/hypocrite didn't do squat. Like Green Arrow said "Clark hears what he wants to hear".

No, it has since been established that Clark didn't know about Batman being mindwiped. He knew about what the JLA did Dr.Light, not Batman.

Guts/Batman

09-17-2005, 11:09 PM

No, it has since been established that Clark didn't know about Batman being mindwiped. He knew about what the JLA did Dr.Light, not Batman.

And now we know that he learned about it in OMAC #2.

Guts/Batman

09-17-2005, 11:10 PM

The Vanishing now appears to be part of Max Lord's mental tinkerings with Superman's head. In other words, the Vanishing never happened. Lois never disappeared. Superman did.

I completely missed that while reading Sacrifice...

Bored at 3:00AM

09-17-2005, 11:16 PM

I completely missed that while reading Sacrifice...

Well, to be fair, this hasn't been outright stated yet. This is just my pet theory that happens to match the facts at the moment. Lois never disappeared for a year in any of the Superman books while in the very next issue of Superman following the Vanishing story, Lois talks about how Superman had gone missing, not her.

Ergo, ipso facto....The Vanishing was part of Max Lord's mind-screw.

Guts/Batman

09-17-2005, 11:19 PM

Well, to be fair, this hasn't been outright stated yet. This is just my pet theory that happens to match the facts at the moment. Lois never disappeared for a year in any of the Superman books while in the very next issue of Superman following the Vanishing story, Lois talks about how Superman had gone missing, not her.

Ergo, ipso facto....The Vanishing was part of Max Lord's mind-screw.

Makes sense. Apparently there was an OMAC in there as well. But don't remember seeing that either so...

I haven't read the arc in awhile so my memory could be off.

IamtheRock3

09-18-2005, 09:20 AM

Well, to be fair, this hasn't been outright stated yet. This is just my pet theory that happens to match the facts at the moment. Lois never disappeared for a year in any of the Superman books while in the very next issue of Superman following the Vanishing story, Lois talks about how Superman had gone missing, not her.

Ergo, ipso facto....The Vanishing was part of Max Lord's mind-screw.

That doesnt makes sense. Because that mean NOTHING in that story happen

No wonder Woman fight to stop him from using a machine. No coversation with Batman. Priest never existed. Also dought it just didnt happen because that was the introduction of Orr and the first apperence of Omac.

IamtheRock3

09-18-2005, 09:25 AM

Also he still kept the robots around.

Titan76

09-18-2005, 09:34 AM

Man I'm all confused, one minute Superman is doing something the next it was all in his head :confused:. As for Batman I think DC is double standarding Batman, I mean can you imagin if the rest of the JL found out that Dr. Light was mindwipe and Batman know about it and did nothing, and Superman was the one that was mindwipe. Yeah Batman is a jerk but he lives in Gottam City and gets 1 hour sleep everyday, what's their excuse?

Bored at 3:00AM

09-18-2005, 11:10 AM

That doesnt makes sense. Because that mean NOTHING in that story happen

No wonder Woman fight to stop him from using a machine. No coversation with Batman. Priest never existed. Also dought it just didnt happen because that was the introduction of Orr and the first apperence of Omac.

No, it means that, like in Sacrifice, much of what we saw was happening inside Superman's head and some of it actually happened, like Orr and the OMAC prototype.

IamtheRock3

09-18-2005, 06:43 PM

No, it means that, like in Sacrifice, much of what we saw was happening inside Superman's head and some of it actually happened, like Orr and the OMAC prototype.

Yea but Even the JLA mention it to him and that story. Also coversation with Batman and WW..that Superman wasnt part of thus...can't be in his mind.

So till I get some backing not sure I buy that theroy. It more to show that it happen..then it was in his head.

Captain Jim

09-18-2005, 09:49 PM

I used to really like Batman, but he's been a world champion jerk for the past decade.

Amen, brother!

davids

09-24-2005, 05:19 PM

Just the lastest exsample the whole current story line! WW 219 as prime exsample.

Christopher O

09-24-2005, 05:29 PM

I find the whole Trinity to be more interesting together than apart, not just Wonder Woman. Of course, I find her more interesting independently than I do Superman or Batman

Eliseu Gouveia

10-12-2005, 10:54 PM

She saved him (and pretty much everyone) by killing Lord, right?

So why does he hold a grudge against her?

Converge

10-12-2005, 11:00 PM

Because she killed Max Lord.

And Superman believes that killing someone is never the answer.

PS: By killing Lord, she inadvertantly activated the "KingIsDead" protocol in the OMACs that caused Brother Eye's AI to become autonomous and activate all of the OMACs at once. So killing Max Lord could have done more harm than good.

Eliseu Gouveia

10-12-2005, 11:21 PM

But he is no saint.

He killed the 3 kryptonians.

Who is he to sit in the high horse?

Paul Newell

10-12-2005, 11:29 PM

Which almost drove him to the edge of insanity and got him to vow never, ever to kill again.

Guts/Batman

10-12-2005, 11:37 PM

And Batman is arguably insane because of his unwillingness to kill even the worst, most unrepentant sociopaths (Joker, etc)...

Bruce and Clark see themselves as heroes. Diana, it seems, see herself as a warrior (as I do). And what do warriors do on the battlefield...?

Bruce and Clark simply don't have that mentality.

DracoMalfoy

10-12-2005, 11:51 PM

Superman doesn't HATE Wonder Woman. He's just incredibly disappointed with her and he feels like he lost his best friend.

Diana is a warrior. In our real world terms, she's a soldier. She'll kill if she has to.

Superman isn't a soldier. He cannot understand such a mentality.

DracoMalfoy

10-12-2005, 11:52 PM

PS: By killing Lord, she inadvertantly activated the "KingIsDead" protocol in the OMACs that caused Brother Eye's AI to become autonomous and activate all of the OMACs at once. So killing Max Lord could have done more harm than good.

None of THAT would have happened if Batman's excessive paranoia didn't urge him to build the damn satellite in the first place. It's intentions were "good" but nothing good came out of it. Not one.

Guts/Batman

10-12-2005, 11:54 PM

None of THAT would have happened if Batman's excessive paranoia didn't urge him to build the damn satellite in the first place. It's intentions were "good" but nothing good came out of it. Not one.

And none of THAT would have happened without the mindwipe of Batman in Identity Crisis...

Paul Newell

10-12-2005, 11:57 PM

And none of THAT would have happened without the mindwipe of Batman in Identity Crisis...
And none of that would have happened if Dr. Light hadn't threatened to get the JLA's "loved ones". :)

DracoMalfoy

10-12-2005, 11:59 PM

And none of THAT would have happened without the mindwipe of Batman in Identity Crisis...

None of THAT would have happened if Dr. Light didn't rape Sue Dibny...

But SERIOUSLY he has, what, TWO minutes of his memory erased.

So RATIONALLY: "I'm gonna spend billions and billions of dollars on a super-duper spy satillite that will watch EVERYONE at ALL TIMES. MWHAHAHA!"

Doesn't make remote sense to me.

Guts/Batman

10-13-2005, 12:02 AM

None of THAT would have happened if Dr. Light didn't rape Sue Dibny...

But SERIOUSLY he has, what, TWO minutes of his memory erased.

So RATIONALLY: "I'm gonna spend billions and billions of dollars on a super-duper spy satillite that will watch EVERYONE at ALL TIMES. MWHAHAHA!"

Doesn't make remote sense to me.

Nitpick: It was 10 minutes. :p

Since when has Batman made any remote sense in what he has done recently?

Batman has been a paranoid ass**** for awhile now. It doesn't surprise me that he would do that.

Guts/Batman

10-13-2005, 12:03 AM

And none of that would have happened if Dr. Light hadn't threatened to get the JLA's "loved ones". :)

And none of that would have happened if he didn't choose to be a villain... ;)

Why can't people just get along? :D

ForEverAncien

10-13-2005, 12:38 AM

And none of that would have happened if he didn't choose to be a villain... ;)

Why can't people just get along? :D

None had to be known, if people just kept their mouths shut... :)

mike626

10-13-2005, 12:46 AM

Nitpick: It was 10 minutes. :p

Since when has Batman made any remote sense in what he has done recently?

Batman has been a paranoid ass**** for awhile now. It doesn't surprise me that he would do that.Yeah, I kinda figured that he wolud have some kind of fall-back plan after TOB.

trickster

10-13-2005, 02:04 AM

"It isn't paranoia when they're out to get you".

IamtheRock3

10-13-2005, 06:47 AM

Captain Smith

10-13-2005, 10:38 AM

Christopher O

10-13-2005, 10:56 AM

literally exaggerated

10-13-2005, 11:26 AM

As I have said before, the use of force doctrines by DCU heroes is really screwed up.

Roughly as screwed up as current Western World (specifically American mainstream) stance on military violence towards civilians, i.e. that bombing military targets in a way that potentially could (and often does) result in civilian deaths is morally acceptable, whereas intentionally targeting civilians is not, even if the end result is the same.

Its not the possiblity of death that Supes is so upset over, its that WW is intentionally going out to cause it. What he finds unacceptable is not the use of force that may have lethal consequences, but intentionally aiming for those lethal consequences.

Karl J. Barnes

10-13-2005, 11:33 AM

Honestly, after Infinite Crisis #1, I hope it turns out to be Psycho Pirate playing the three against each other, because I really wanted to smack Superman for how ridiculous he was being. Batman was being a little strange too, especially with that comment that hit below the belt--hardcore below the belt.

My thoughts exactly. Psycho Pirate seems to be one of the major catalyst behind the Crisis with Power Girl being the focus or prism. I have feeling, once Kara's origin is settled then things will fall into place.

protege

10-13-2005, 11:44 AM

I still have a problem with Supes' attiude on lethal force. When he fights someone like Despero he throws powerful punches and beams heat vision. In fact, the beam went through Despero's head fin. Might it not go through his noggin also.

Supes doesn't seem to be Gandi when he dukes it out. There's no way he can really tell that a blow or beaming won't do in the bad guy. So how can he fault Diana in a mode that was similar to someone with a detonator of a bomb that they refuse to drop.

As I have said before, the use of force doctrines by DCU heroes is really screwed up.
Not that this is really adding anything to the converstaion, but I always get disappointed when i see Supes battling Darkseid or Mongul, and he never seems to hold back, but it never seems to be enough, and you know they have no compunction about wiping the floor with him. Sometimes, I just feel that they need to be taken out once and for all, so nobody ever has to worry about them again. If Wonder Woman could take them out, i don't think I'd shed a tear. In Max Lord's case, I don't think it was that cut and dried.More on your point, Supes feels he has to hold his punches, or he could easily kill someone- i wonder if he REALLY knows what he's capable of? it's not the same thing with Diana, who may not know her own strength in battle, but clearly knew she was capable of killing Max by twisting his neck.

Guts/Batman

10-13-2005, 03:25 PM

"It isn't paranoia when they're out to get you".

But they're not out to get him...

trickster

10-13-2005, 04:06 PM

But they're not out to get him...

You know, it was a somewhat famous joke. But anyway, my pro Batman arguments are scattered all over this forum.:cool:

VietN

10-13-2005, 04:07 PM

... probably because they already got him.

---

I agree with literally exaggerated.

Guts/Batman

10-13-2005, 04:12 PM

You know, it was a somewhat famous joke. But anyway, my pro Batman arguments are scattered all over this forum.:cool:

Yea, I know.

And my anti-BatDick arguments are littered all over the DC forums as well... :D

Guts/Batman

10-13-2005, 04:15 PM

... probably because they already got him.

---

I agree with literally exaggerated.

That still doesn't excuse him being a paranoid, controlling ass----.

Unless of course, that Identity Crisis retconned ALL of BatDick's paranoid, controlling ass----ish behavior to being after the mindwipe.

Even if that is the case, it is still a heaping pile of bull----.

IamtheRock3

10-13-2005, 06:14 PM

hey worked for Hal

Guts/Batman

10-13-2005, 06:17 PM

hey worked for Hal

Yea.

And I call bull---- on that as well.

IamtheRock3

10-13-2005, 06:32 PM

Yea.

And I call bull---- on that as well.

Everyone gets a Reconned

Or like Superman Vanishing..it just not talk about

trickster

10-14-2005, 02:11 AM

... probably because they already got him.

Ha ha , good one. After reading JLA 120, I think Kingdom Come is quickly becoming the future. What with Ollie being a sanctimonious preacher. I'm surprised Batman didn't whoop his a**.

Guts/Batman

10-14-2005, 02:15 AM

Ha ha , good one. After reading JLA 120, I think Kingdom Come is quickly becoming the future. What with Ollie being a sanctimonious preacher. I'm surprised Batman didn't whoop his a**.

Ollie is not worth Bruce's time now that he has plenty other things to worry about... :evilsmile

PatrickG

10-14-2005, 03:30 AM

Supes doesn't seem to be Gandi when he dukes it out. There's no way he can really tell that a blow or beaming won't do in the bad guy. So how can he fault Diana in a mode that was similar to someone with a detonator of a bomb that they refuse to drop.

Microscopic vision, hello!

He can identify someone's DNA by looking at them and determine whether (and how) they've been genetically enhanced. He can hear amoeba crawl and watch electrons in their orbit.

Heck, he once surgically bonded the Eradicator to a wall at the molecular level!

As for Wonder Woman's actions... Uhm. Did anybody else notice that Max Lord was about to spill the beans on the Crisis? He tried to tell her that he was "preparing for --" and she cut him off and shortly thereafter killed him.

If she was gonna kill him, she could have at least hesitated long enough to find out what he was up to...

Calybos

10-14-2005, 08:34 AM

But he is no saint.
He killed the 3 kryptonians.
Who is he to sit in the high horse?

He's Superman, that's who. AND he's Rick James, bitch!

More seriously: He's a sentient being with a sense of morals and ethics. Just like the rest of us. So of COURSE he's entitled to judge someone else's actions, just as we are.

In his view, deliberate intent to kill is not heroic. Diana sees it differently. Bruce may not be stable enough to even HAVE an opinion on that point, much less worry about whether he's being "heroic." (What a dick.)

If you don't like the lethal-force attitudes of Superman and some other heroes... well, you have plenty of others to choose from. But there WILL be differing belief structures and moral codes, even ones you disagree with. And hey--I think that happens in real life, too!

Captain Smith

10-14-2005, 10:05 AM

The problem is that if you are in lethal force situations, you have to be able to use it. Of course, that is the training doctrine for the real world police and military. Folks are disqualified if they don't.

But if Supes wasn't to be a wussy - ok with me.

xandertheill

10-15-2005, 12:01 AM

Roughly as screwed up as current Western World (specifically American mainstream) stance on military violence towards civilians, i.e. that bombing military targets in a way that potentially could (and often does) result in civilian deaths is morally acceptable, whereas intentionally targeting civilians is not, even if the end result is the same.

Its not the possiblity of death that Supes is so upset over, its that WW is intentionally going out to cause it. What he finds unacceptable is not the use of force that may have lethal consequences, but intentionally aiming for those lethal consequences.

has it ever occurred to you that they build military installations directly next to schools & in heavily ubanized areas so you'll make comments like that?

..... besides if u lived or worked or played next door to what u know is a military base during wartime.... wouldn't you leave?

just wondering

xandertheill

10-15-2005, 12:17 AM

the despero argument isn't neccessarily valid in the sense that DIANA KILLED MAX LORD IN COLD BLOOD... he was bound and unable to defend himself (and even if he wasn't what's he really going to do to wonder woman). If she kills despero in a one on one fight for the fate of earth or something I don't think supes reacts this way.

& bats shouldn't even be allowed to speak on it. If it wasn't for intervention he would have killed Joker(hush), & Black mask(war games) Recently.

Also Diana's currently a role model for Kara so I don't know if this was a factor in the writing or not but i'm sure supes doesn't want her picking that up as an option.

& just so people know I'm glad she did it & think she had a valid reason more power to her.

Converge

10-15-2005, 12:21 AM

he was bound and unable to defend himself

Well he was using Superman to beat the crap out of wonder woman.

So I don't really think he was defenseless.

xandertheill

10-15-2005, 12:40 AM

not while she had the lasso on him.

Handcannon

10-15-2005, 12:49 AM

Superman doesn't hate anybody. He just doesn't approve of killing of any kind. I think he's more worried about her state of mind and can't trust here right now more than anything. He's also worried about Batman, but then again-who isn't?

titanfan

10-15-2005, 12:51 AM

I honestly think that part of the reason that he was so upset at Diana was that she was simply remorseless about killing Maxwell Lord. The fact that it didn't even tear at her conscious was as part of the problem of anything.

I'd say that most people in the world want their friends to have certain values--they wouldn't be our friends if we didn't. Yes, Diana always had those beliefs--but Superman looked the other way, just like he did with the mindwipes. He put himself into a situation where he had no choice but to confront it....

Arkham Resident

10-15-2005, 03:02 AM

Cant help but notice..

In the conversation between the Big Three in IC#1, Batman's arguments came out the most convincing to me.. I thought,that despite all the accusations that he is a Dick and has lost the respect of his peers in pre-IC stories.. the dialougue showed that he knew where he stood and held on to his principles despite what others think.

i think Diana and Supes came out more defeated than Batman after the conversation...

what do you think?

Bored at 3:00AM

10-15-2005, 03:11 AM

Even when Batman's a dick, he's still usually right.

trickster

10-15-2005, 04:49 AM