"When did DC jump the shark?" Two different answers.

[Lorendiac]

This subject comes up from time to time on one forum or another, and I'm offering two very different answers here, on the theory that if one of them doesn't appeal to a given reader, perhaps the other one will do better! :)

1. My Serious Answer
2. My Tongue-in-Cheek Answer


1. My Serious Answer

The Jump the Shark (http://www.jumptheshark.com/about.htm) website says in their FAQ:

Q. What is jumping the shark?

A. It's a moment. A defining moment when you know that your favorite television program has reached its peak. That instant that you know from now on...it's all downhill. Some call it the climax. We call it "Jumping the Shark." From that moment on, the program will simply never be the same.

The term "jump the shark" was coined by my college roommate for 4 years, Sean J. Connolly, in Ann Arbor, Michigan back in 1985. This web site, book, film, and all other material surrounding shark jumping, are hereby dedicated to "the Colonel."

The aforementioned expression refers to the telltale sign of the demise of Happy Days, our favorite example, when Fonzie actually "jumped the shark." The rest is history.

I am told that the Fonz was water-skiing off the coast of California in one episode and casually jumped his skis right over a shark in one shot, and that many diehard "Happy Days" fans now regard this as the beginning of the end for the show's quality and credibility, or something along those general lines (I know very little about "Happy Days" myself.

I always have trouble taking it seriously when other people start asking when something as big as the DCU did this, however. My serious opinion is that arguing about when something "jumped the shark" may make sense when you're talking about the tone and continuity of a single ongoing TV series, or a series of novels by a single author, or even a string of movies that are supposed to consistently present to us, from beginning to end, the creative version of a single person or permanent team (such as George Lucas or the Wachowski brothers). But to me, it's just silly to argue that a single moment in a single comic book can qualify as an entire publishing company's superhero "universe" having simultaneously and irrevocably "jumped the shark." After all, that sort of "universe" involves thousands and thousands of stories, written by dozens of writers, featuring a huge number of different characters.

Suppose for the sake of argument that something really outrageous and unbelievable is presented to us in one of the regular Superman titles, and the writer and editor obviously expect us to take it at face value. Suppose that I'm not even reading the regular Superman titles at the time. What do I care? Does the existence of a really obnoxious story development over in a book I didn't read have any real impact on my enjoyment of a different story, by a different writer, featuring Batman, or the Titans, or Green Arrow, or whoever? Of course not.

And if the story upsets so many people that the powers that be at DC finally realize it was an asinine idea, it can be retconned in the blink of an eye! Thereby "unjumping the shark."

To offer a single example (of many possibilities in comic book lore!): I bought "JLA #65" when it came out, several years ago. I thought the way Joe Kelly turned Plastic Man into a deadbeat dad, with an illegitimate son whom he had always known he had (for the last ten years), but had never bothered to visit - much less do anything so drastic as marry the girl after he got her pregnant - was a horrible mistake in a story that was supposed to be happening "in continuity."

Kyle Baker must have agreed with me - I am told that he firmly retconned that away in his "Plastic Man" title so that Plas has never yet reproduced at all.

So: I was horrified when I first read that story by Kelly, and I might well regard it as a case of Joe Kelly jumping the shark in his own run on JLA, but I didn't regard it as doing any particular damage to any other characters, nor to the continuity of the JLA as it would later be developed by any other writer. A "universe" such as the DCU (or MU) is just too big to be "ruined" by an isolated case of shark-jumping in one person's run on one particular monthly title.


2. My Tongue-in-Cheek Answer

I have posted this twice in threads that other people started on the boards on DC's own website regarding the subject of comics companies "jumping the shark." It was as I found myself reposting it earlier today that I decided it was to write down the more "serious" Answer I have to that question, which I provided above.

***** OLD POST BEGINS *****

I say, if you want to find where DC went wrong, go way back to the beginning instead of messing around with recent history!

Once upon a time there was this nice, simple, decent company called "National Periodical Publications." It published comic books for kids in the 1930s. (Later it somehow evolved into DC, as I understand it.)

And then it jumped the shark. It published this silly thing called "Action Comics #1" with a character called "Superman" in it.

Superman was bulletproof and could pick up a car with his bare hands and so forth, which was ridiculous enough . . . but he might someday have amounted to something if he'd been handled better.

Who was his love interest? This girl reporter named Lois Lane who was so incredibly stupid or unperceptive that she couldn't recognize Superman when he put on a pair of glasses over his face.

How on earth anyone could ever believe such an airhead was qualified to work as an investigative reporter is completely beyond me. And yet she was the girl Superman cared about - evidently he had very low standards when selecting possible mates.

It got worse. Before his first storyline was over, Superman had singlehandedly ended a war between two other nations. Thus begging the question: why didn't he continue along that path in future years - after World War II started, for instance? But that would have been too blatantly unrealistic as real wars spread around the world, something which Superman's young creators failed to realize at the time . . . so he ended up being transmuted in some ways into Superwimp instead as it became clear that he was too spineless to end wars, instead of using his godlike powers to squash them flat in a matter of hours!

I could go on and on. National Periodical Publications (later DC) jumped the shark with that outrageously unrealistic and unconvincing story back in 1938, and all of their subsequent storytelling mistakes of the past 67 years seem to derive from that horrible precedent. :)

[Bloopinator]

Greeeeeeaaaaaaaat

[Lex]

To offer a single example (of many possibilities in comic book lore!): I bought "JLA #65" when it came out, several years ago. I thought the way Joe Kelly turned Plastic Man into a deadbeat dad, with an illegitimate son whom he had always known he had (for the last ten years), but had never bothered to visit - much less do anything so drastic as marry the girl after he got her pregnant - was a horrible mistake in a story that was supposed to be happening "in continuity."

Kyle Baker must have agreed with me - I am told that he firmly retconned that away in his "Plastic Man" title so that Plas has never yet reproduced at all.

So: I was horrified when I first read that story by Kelly, and I might well regard it as a case of Joe Kelly jumping the shark in his own run on JLA, but I didn't regard it as doing any particular damage to any other characters, nor to the continuity of the JLA as it would later be developed by any other writer. A "universe" such as the DCU (or MU) is just too big to be "ruined" by an isolated case of shark-jumping in one person's run on one particular monthly title. Yeah, I was glad Baker got rid of that too (expecially because he did it in a really funny way). It was an attempt to make Plastic Man "more complex" (which was made fun of quite a bit in that Plastic Man story... "Why would I, Batman, assist a deadbeat dad in frightening his child? That would be completely our of character!" "I think it makes you more complex." Heh.)

[Hellpop]

Sure, a comic book company can jump the shark. Marvel did so when they undid Grant Morrison's run on X- Men. Why? that book represented a bold new philosophy for the company. By undoing what Grant did, Quesada and Co. retreated, back into their nice, safe little continuity. There are other moves they made at the time, but this one, to me, is most representative of when Marvel went wrong-- this time.

DC, however, has not Jumped the Shark. Yet. Ask me after Infinite Crisis is over....

[jerrymcl89]

A comic company can certainly embark, decisively, in the wrong direction. (I'd guess the 90's DC era of crippling Batman, the death of Superman, and replacing Green Arrow and Green Lantern could be seen as an example of that). But unlike, say, a TV show, they can also reverse course if they see they've made a mistake. So the 'jumping the shark' concept is far less applicable. It's especially a TV thing, given the inevitable gravity that makes TV shows eventually suck, and not recover.

[Hellpop]

A comic company can certainly embark, decisively, in the wrong direction. (I'd guess the 90's DC era of crippling Batman, the death of Superman, and replacing Green Arrow and Green Lantern could be seen as an example of that). But unlike, say, a TV show, they can also reverse course if they see they've made a mistake. So the 'jumping the shark' concept is far less applicable. It's especially a TV thing, given the inevitable gravity that makes TV shows eventually suck, and not recover.

Agreed. Marvel may, some day, actually publish good comics again.

Someday.

[pennywisdom]

A comic company can certainly embark, decisively, in the wrong direction. (I'd guess the 90's DC era of crippling Batman, the death of Superman, and replacing Green Arrow and Green Lantern could be seen as an example of that). But unlike, say, a TV show, they can also reverse course if they see they've made a mistake. So the 'jumping the shark' concept is far less applicable. It's especially a TV thing, given the inevitable gravity that makes TV shows eventually suck, and not recover.
Agreed. There is no jumping of sharks in comic books, because everything is cyclical. They go through waves of great comics and pure crap. There is no one, final nail in the coffin...unless you're CrossGen.

[dancj]

To offer a single example (of many possibilities in comic book lore!): I bought "JLA #65" when it came out, several years ago. I thought the way Joe Kelly turned Plastic Man into a deadbeat dad, with an illegitimate son whom he had always known he had (for the last ten years), but had never bothered to visit

I read Kelly's JLA up to the end of Obsidan age and I thought that was the only good issue he wrote

[KET]

A comic company can certainly embark, decisively, in the wrong direction. (I'd guess the 90's DC era of crippling Batman, the death of Superman, and replacing Green Arrow and Green Lantern could be seen as an example of that). But unlike, say, a TV show, they can also reverse course if they see they've made a mistake. So the 'jumping the shark' concept is far less applicable. It's especially a TV thing, given the inevitable gravity that makes TV shows eventually suck, and not recover.

Not really. You're comparing comic book companies to television shows, which is really comparing 'apples and oranges'. Instead, you need to be comparing PRODUCT: comic books and TV shows, and on this, the 'jumping the shark' principle applies pretty much the same way.

[GeorgeG]

I read Kelly's JLA up to the end of Obsidan age and I thought that was the only good issue he wrote

And that's what's so interesting in regards to the post that started this thread--that every fan's opinion is different.

I agree with you. I thought this was the best issue of his JLA run.

And frankly, there is good chance that another writer will forget whatever Kyle Baker did and use the son Joe Kelly introduced.

Heck, if Dan Didio & Company can decide not to use the cyborg part of the Maxwell Lord character to further a story, a writer can conveniently forget any "retcon" Baker may have done.

As far as DC jumping, I'm waiting for Infinite Crisis to conclude to see how the universe is remolded. If there was ever a time a company could jump, this could be it.

[mohammedali]

When ever I think of the term 'Jump the Shark', I always remember the Adam West Batman jumping away from the shark when climbing the ladder to the helicopter. Anyone remember that and think the same? Anyone at all?

Mohammed Ali

[dazzler_slave]

When ever I think of the term 'Jump the Shark', I always remember the Adam West Batman jumping away from the shark when climbing the ladder to the helicopter. Anyone remember that and think the same? Anyone at all?

Mohammed Ali

"Robin! Hand me the Shark Repellent Bat Spray!"

[Kevinroc]

Comics jump the shark and jump back. It's the nature of the biz.

[Gentlegamer]

Sure, a comic book company can jump the shark. Marvel did so when they undid Grant Morrison's run on X- Men. Why? that book represented a bold new philosophy for the company. By undoing what Grant did, Quesada and Co. retreated, back into their nice, safe little continuity. There are other moves they made at the time, but this one, to me, is most representative of when Marvel went wrong-- this time.

DC, however, has not Jumped the Shark. Yet. Ask me after Infinite Crisis is over....Is Morrison's run on X-Men collected in any TPBs? It sounds kinda interesting.

[kash]

Is Morrison's run on X-Men collected in any TPBs? It sounds kinda interesting.

yep his whole run is collected in TPB, starting with e is for extinction all the way to planet M. i think its like 6 trades alltogether

[Paul McEnery]

yep his whole run is collected in TPB, starting with e is for extinction all the way to planet M. i think its like 6 trades alltogether
There's a seventh trade: here comes tomorrow.

Also, you can get them even cheaper in the huge hardcover version.

[acagle7]

I don't believe a comic company can jump shark. Most of the time unpopular/controversial stories are reversed. BTW, I always thought Happy Days jumped the shark when Howard left the show, not when the Fonz jumped the shark.

[Hellpop]

I don't believe a comic company can jump shark. Most of the time unpopular/controversial stories are reversed. BTW, I always thought Happy Days jumped the shark when Howard left the show, not when the Fonz jumped the shark.

Happy Days couldn't have jumped the shark then, 'cause the term didn't exist then, 'cause the Fonz hadn't jumped the shark. Unless, he jumped the shark first on Earth-2....

Now my head hurts....

[mohammedali]

"Robin! Hand me the Shark Repellent Bat Spray!"
Yes. Someone remembers. I'm not alone...

Mohammed Ali

[morbiusdog]

Personally i think the comic industry as a whole (with the exception of DC)jumped the shark in the early 90's when they decided that having as many different covers as possible for each book and and as many "spin-off" titles starring super deformed muscle bound twats costumed in the brightest,pouch covered lycra they could find was more important than writing good stories! DC were the only company who didnt follow this trend IMO, they just set about tring to make there stories more cohesive and entertaining and to this day i think they are still producing the best mainstream superhero stuff out there :evilsmile

[CarolStrick]

Yes, comics can jump the shark and come back successfully. The only question is: will I still be reading to enjoy the new generation? If a tree falls in the wilderness with no one around to hear it, will...?

DC jumped the shark with Dark Knight but didn't realize it for quite some time. After Crisis when staffs didn't bother to create an overall company plan, much less stick to it, the shark gathered itself and began rolling downhill getting larger and larger until, oh, when shall we say? Certainly with Wonder Woman it was with Byrne. JLA happened long before the Obsidian Age, perhaps even with the JLA restart, though somewhere around Kooey-Kooey-Kooey might be closer to the actual event. Legion? Jeez, let me count the reboots. I'd say it was the Legion Lost arc. That's when they finally lost my $$.

The shark hit at different times as it swept across the DCU. Perhaps we can average it out, or at least spot the chum at Zero Hour?

But companies can indeed bounce back. The question is: if I am finally spurred to quit DC once and for all because of all this out-of-continuity, out-of-character, dark, dark, darkness, will I be interested in returning in a year?

[David O Burcham]

Comics as a whole jumped the shark with Watchmen and The Dark Knight Returns. That is the absolute best comics will ever be ibn quality. However, the "more sophistication in comcis" trend that developed isolated the younger, casual readers and catered to the aging, devoted comic book following.

If sales ever get back to the numbers of the 80's, then comics will have successfully un-jumped the shark.

And those kinds of numbers can only be attained by the younger, casual readers.

[Chad G.]

I read Kelly's JLA up to the end of Obsidan age and I thought that was the only good issue he wrote

Same here. Obsidian Age made me want to thump my head into a wall. BUt I liked the Plastic Man issue, and thought it was very well written.

And don't you wonder what Bats did to scare those kids...

[Hellpop]

Couple things:

morbiusdog: DC didn't get in on the whole multiple covers thing? I've got about a dozen "Robin II: the Joker's Wild!" hologram covers with which to dispute that theory...

CarolStrick: Your point is that changes in editorial philosophy (or lack thereof) cause most shark jumpings. Agreed. That's why I think that Marvel, under Big Joe, is flyin' thru the air in trunks and a leather jacket. But you must explain what you mean about Dark Knight.

And I'm intruiged by the image of a shark rolling down a hill....

[Jessica Drew]

And I'm intruiged by the image of a shark rolling down a hill....

If that shark was Jabberjaw, that would be a very humorous image.

[Hellpop]

If that shark was Jabberjaw, that would be a very humorous image.

Yeah.... That made me laugh....

[dancj]

morbiusdog: DC didn't get in on the whole multiple covers thing? I've got about a dozen "Robin II: the Joker's Wild!" hologram covers with which to dispute that theory...

IIRC that was one of the first comics to have multiple covers, and from what I remember the idea back then was that people could choose which one to buy (I chose the nice Matt Wagner one with Joker in a straightjacket). From what I gather it was only afterwards that they realised some people were buying multiple copies.

Personally I have no problem with multiple covers - if some people are taken in by them more power to the comic companies. The unfogivable one was the first issue of Outsiders where most of the content of each comic was the same, but there was a few pages different with each cover so to get the whole story you had to buy four or five comics, but you'd only have enough content for about two

[Pookienick]

IIRunfogivable one was the first issue of Outsiders where most of the content of each comic was the same, but there was a few pages different with each cover so to get the whole story you had to buy four or five comics, but you'd only have enough content for about two

I had completely forgotten this - I was looking through some of my comics the other day and saw both Outsiders comics I bought and I thought 'Why did I buy both' - now I have the answer.

Thank You

As an aside I really enjoyed that Outsiders series - would be good to see those characters being used a bit more.

[Hellpop]

IIRC that was one of the first comics to have multiple covers, and from what I remember the idea back then was that people could choose which one to buy (I chose the nice Matt Wagner one with Joker in a straightjacket). From what I gather it was only afterwards that they realised some people were buying multiple copies.

Personally I have no problem with multiple covers - if some people are taken in by them more power to the comic companies. The unfogivable one was the first issue of Outsiders where most of the content of each comic was the same, but there was a few pages different with each cover so to get the whole story you had to buy four or five comics, but you'd only have enough content for about two

Yeah, I'd forgotten about Outsiders too. I don't really have a problem with multiple covers either; I'm still amazed, though, that people are still tricked by them, even though there's been no proof that different covers are really worth more. The ones that really get me are those 'sketch varients' you see for ridiculous prices at conventions.

BTW, the funny thing about that Robin series, I realized years later, is that the Kevin McGuire covers without the holograms were much nicer. Go figure.

[Paradox]

Was there another Outsiders book? I remember the first one (after Bats) and the most recent. I don't remember them doing the "first few pages" different there, but I sure do remember them doing it with Team Titans. Did this become a small habit?

[Dhusk]

Big Yelllow Fear Monster

Everything's been in a downward spiral since then, and DC was already in a creative slump when that happened.

BTW, Marvel is already producing better comics than DC. Its why I'm reading Marvel a lot more nowadays than the Retro-Silver-Age joke DC's fast becoming.

[dazzler_slave]

Big Yelllow Fear Monster

Everything's been in a downward spiral since then, and DC was already in a creative slump when that happened.

BTW, Marvel is already producing better comics than DC. Its why I'm reading Marvel a lot more nowadays than the Retro-Silver-Age joke DC's fast becoming.

Whoa, we are totally in the opposite ends of collecting! I am so disgusted with Marvel these days that I am inches away from dropping everything they publish (except She Hulk, Young Avengers and Runaways). DC, on the other hand is revitalising my love of comics and I am buying so many more DC titles these days. Maybe the Silver Age is coming back, maybe not. All I know is that I started collecting comics post Crisis so the Silver Age means nothing to me. What excites me is how well written DC comics are these days and how their gimmicks actually mean something instead of the empty flash of Marvel's stuff like Disassembled, House of M, DeciMation, Daredevil's whole series etc.

[CarolStrick]

CarolStrick: Your point is that changes in editorial philosophy (or lack thereof) cause most shark jumpings. Agreed. That's why I think that Marvel, under Big Joe, is flyin' thru the air in trunks and a leather jacket. But you must explain what you mean about Dark Knight.

And I'm intruiged by the image of a shark rolling down a hill....

Yep, that was Jabberjaw, all right. If our central image of "jumping the shark" is said fish, then it can morph into a larger metaphor.

Dark Knight? Its success rammed through the idea of this horrible dark, darker, darkest DCU we're faced with. This seems to be the antithesis of heroic fantasy (which superhero comics are supposed to be). The paradigm that comes with Dark Knight is what infests the carbon-based, I mean, DCU now. IC seems to be a Fight Club-esque "let's do everything and anything to shock and titillate, as long as it's done in a dark fashion" orgy that some say will signal the beginning of a bright new, truly heroic DCU, but which does not seem to set the best of precedents.

[Chou Blaster]

Well what turned me off wa sthe fact the DC heros have become "jerk sin costumes."

Like Bat Man getting Spoielr killed, an dlatte rin the writing, actin gliek the doctor did it. (By not helpnig Steph.) But it was Bat Man's damn fault for getting her in that situaiton. Hence it is still his fault.

BLue Beatles death
The JLA having Bat Man's memroy erased (For a year.)

The Yellow Fear Monster.

Hal random insane punching guy.

Hell the only Saving graces in DC are:

Making Aqua Man bad ass.

Wonder Woman snapping that worm's Max Lord's neck.

Plastic Man. (Good comedy.)


Just my opinion. Like anyone really listens to me anyway.

[the Monitor]

yep his whole run is collected in TPB, starting with e is for extinction all the way to planet M. i think its like 6 trades alltogether

I think I've enjoyed everything I've read by Morrison. Having not read any Marvel since the early Claremont X-Men, I decided to not bother with Morrison's run on this title. Would a reader with only casual knowledge of the X-Men but a big fan of Morrison enjoy the books? What did he do there that was so exciting? Should I take this somewhere else?

[AlterEgo]

BTW, Marvel is already producing better comics than DC. Its why I'm reading Marvel a lot more nowadays than the Retro-Silver-Age joke DC's fast becoming.

LOL...boy, you sure are easy to please.

marvel's been on a downward spiral for last several years. the only good title they've consistently produced was she-hulk and they stupidly canceled the series. and then decided to bring it back again after they realized what a mistake that was.

on recent news: stray's fun on the ff is a complete bore. see the last ff arc which is basically a borrowed idea from his rising stars work. bendis' run on avengers has been disappointing. house of m is nothing more than a massive elseworld's arc...marvel is fast running out of ideas and they've long lost the initiative that they had when quesada became e-i-c. they've also killed thor and revamped cap so many times, that i've ceased to care about the character.

in short...the House of Ideas is running on gas fumes. in an attempt to make things right again, now they've hired some dc writers (rucka, brubaker, etc) to inject some creativity back to their product.

makes me laugh to see you throwing your money away on crap marvel books. more power to ya! :evilsmile

the questionable movie that i think dc has made was to hire bob harras over to their organization. he brings nothing to the table.

[Paul Newell]

Guys, no more playing "My corporate conglomerate can beat up your corporate conglomerate", please. There's nothing I hate more than a pointless argument that ensures the death of a thread.

[jam37wcc]

I think DC jumped the shark on the Superman books when they decided to do a whole new relaunch with three new writers and artists and then a yaer later another relaunch. And then replacing Brne and Simone because now they have a rotating creative team on the title.

[Guts/Batman]

Identity Crisis...

[Jay!]

When did DC jump the shark? One word: CRISIS.

The original Crisis which opened up parallel worlds, or the Crisis that promised to clean things up is the question.

For me, DC went from storytelling entertainment to money-grubbing pimps whoring their characters.

Just Jay's opinion.

[Crinos]

I think general agreement over on the death spiral thread pins the blame on the "Graduation day" arc. That's when DC started to go downhill.

If everything from there to infinite crisis got retconned or hypertimed out of existance then that would be peachy.

[Reggie Swats]

To offer a single example (of many possibilities in comic book lore!): I bought "JLA #65" when it came out, several years ago. I thought the way Joe Kelly turned Plastic Man into a deadbeat dad, with an illegitimate son whom he had always known he had (for the last ten years), but had never bothered to visit - much less do anything so drastic as marry the girl after he got her pregnant - was a horrible mistake in a story that was supposed to be happening "in continuity."

Kyle Baker must have agreed with me - I am told that he firmly retconned that away in his "Plastic Man" title so that Plas has never yet reproduced at all.

Funny, I remember that issue very well as my favorite of Kelly's run on the title, and in the recent history of JLA as a whole (which was mostly Kelly, but y'know). I don't really see what was not to like, it was a great change of pace, and I loved the way it turned out. I also don't really think that a tongue-in-cheek retcon in the pages of the baker Plastic Man run really trumps an issue of JLA for continuity. They introduced the Plastic Man of the next generation in that issue (with shape-changing abilities superior to Martian Manhunter), and I have been sure since reading that issue that someone will bring that up later on.

[Reggie Swats]

I think I've enjoyed everything I've read by Morrison. Having not read any Marvel since the early Claremont X-Men, I decided to not bother with Morrison's run on this title. Would a reader with only casual knowledge of the X-Men but a big fan of Morrison enjoy the books? What did he do there that was so exciting? Should I take this somewhere else?

You're a Morrison fan? You read some X-Men in the 70's? Yeah... you'll like it. He pretty much changed everything when he came on the title, so if you start fresh with his run and read it the whole way through, you will enjoy it immensely. As soon as he left it all sorta changed back, too, so I see his run as the best massive, perfectly self-contained X-Men story ever written. Investing in the trades would be the way to go.

[Mulett]

Was there another Outsiders book? I remember the first one (after Bats) and the most recent. I don't remember them doing the "first few pages" different there, but I sure do remember them doing it with Team Titans. Did this become a small habit?

It was The Outsiders run from a few years ago (possibly seven or eight eyars ago). There were two first issues - one was called Alpha and one was called Omega. One showed all the male character coming together and the other showed all the female characters coming together. If you put the two front covers side by side they created one big cover.

Both issues were supposed to be happening at the same time and so I think a few of the pages/panels were shared between the two. I must admit, I thought it was pretty cool at the time. But then, I really enjoyed the entire run of the Outsiders and was very surprised when it was cancelled.

[Guts/Batman]

I think general agreement over on the death spiral thread pins the blame on the "Graduation day" arc. That's when DC started to go downhill.

If everything from there to infinite crisis got retconned or hypertimed out of existance then that would be peachy.

I was goinna say that myself but at the last second said something else... ;)

[Doom]

It was The Outsiders run from a few years ago (possibly seven or eight eyars ago). There were two first issues - one was called Alpha and one was called Omega. One showed all the male character coming together and the other showed all the female characters coming together. If you put the two front covers side by side they created one big cover.

Both issues were supposed to be happening at the same time and so I think a few of the pages/panels were shared between the two. I must admit, I thought it was pretty cool at the time. But then, I really enjoyed the entire run of the Outsiders and was very surprised when it was cancelled.


Yes, the covers to the issues in question are like so.
http://img467.imageshack.us/img467/5493/outsiders01alpha002du.th.jpg (http://img467.imageshack.us/my.php?image=outsiders01alpha002du.jpg)

http://img469.imageshack.us/img469/9457/outsiders01omega008cn.th.jpg (http://img469.imageshack.us/my.php?image=outsiders01omega008cn.jpg)
The issues themselves are as Mullet said One focused on the men, the other on the girls.
The twin issues shared about 5-6 pages of the same material, but you had to read both to really understand what was happening in the story. (And even then some small things didn't line up right.)

The 90's Outsiders series was very much a book of it's time, the 90s. People would wear trench coats over spandex, sport huge guns, fight over muscled cyborgs and jump headlong in to fights shouting out things like "Man, this really gets me pumped!"
Its like sitting down to watch HK Action Theatre. If you know what you're likely to get before you go in, you won't be too offended and you'll have a blast.
Plus it was the Outsiders. A DC series that has been doing half the stuff from ID Crisis, before ID Crisis was ever concieved.

As far as jumping the shark, I'm with the crowd who don't believe it can apply to comics.
I've been reading since the 90's. I got into comics around the time of the Jim Lee X-Men era and later on the Spider-clone/ Venom ages. And I loved them. Even looking back I don't view them with bile and vitrol. I've read a lot of stuff before my time and stuff since.
Sure they're been periods where I haven't enjoyed my favourite titles.
I hated Spidey in the post "Ben Riely getting killed and Howard Mackie" writing Spidey phase. I hated the Alan Davis the 12 saga/Cyclop-oplis, and "Joeseph as Astra made clone" period of X-Men. (Both being examples of writers having their good original ideas thrown away and replaced with bad ones.)

Marvel's lowest ebb for me (and I use Marvel sice while I've gotten both Marvel and DC books, I've always been a Marvel fan) was the period when the Thunder-Bolts were canceled, Hulk written by Bruce Jones, Grell on Iron-Man and Austen on Uncanney and Avengers and Grant Morrison on X-Men. That almost completely shattered my faith.
But even when all those horrible books were out (sorry, books I didn't like) there were still ones I did. Like PAD's Captain Marvel and JMS Amazing Spider-Man/ Jenkins Spectacular.

It just goes to show, its a thing of swings and round-abouts. Even when there were a lot of bad books in periods I didn't like, there were some fantastic books that were out. Now I'm enjoying a lot of what Marvel put out and dislike only some of the stuff.

Someone mentioned that the Death Spiral (an overdramatic phrase from the Rumbles board I dislike using) began with Graduation Day. It didn't.

It happened with JLAvengers.

I honestly believe if you look at both the Marvel and DC Universe since JLAvengers came out you'll see that by and large the DCUniverse has become a darker, more bleak place with the heroes exhibiting more and more flaws. with some scattered bright pockets here and there.
While conversely at the same time if you look at the Marvel Universe it's become more iconic with the heroes winning more complete victories, recieving less hatred then they used to and overall triumphing. (With some scattered dark pockets here and there.)

I think the real tragedy is that I look at all this and now it's temporary. That it's swings and roundabouts. The DCUniverse is going to have a crisis come along, absolve everyone of their sins and flaws and everyone is going to go back to the old way.
And the opposite will be true for the guys in the MU.

[ZooperSaiyan]

A comic company can certainly embark, decisively, in the wrong direction. (I'd guess the 90's DC era of crippling Batman, the death of Superman, and replacing Green Arrow and Green Lantern could be seen as an example of that). But unlike, say, a TV show, they can also reverse course if they see they've made a mistake. So the 'jumping the shark' concept is far less applicable. It's especially a TV thing, given the inevitable gravity that makes TV shows eventually suck, and not recover.

how about BlackestNight and the relaunch?

http://i469.photobucket.com/albums/rr56/LeoTmnt/tumblr_lmhs8l03oj1qael6bo1_1280.jpg

[gravling]

When did they jump the shark? Personally speaking:

A Combination of two things:

1 - Jim lee being promoted. It's all been downhill since then, hasn't it? The decline in quality of the last couple of years. Wonder Woman's terrible revamp, JMS destroying two of the big three's books, Tony Daniel on Batman, elevating geoff Johns to Bendis-level status (he HAS become DC's equivalent of what Bendis is at Marvel) and the - now pointless - debacle that was Brightest Day.

2 - Flashpoint. In this economy, to put out an event that floods the market with as many tie-ins as Flashpoint had was pretty inexcusable to begin with, but for that to be essentially a sneaky lead in to the ultimate Shark-jump of this Reboot. . . . .

DiDio, Lee and Johns have essentially given the finger to 75 years of DC comics' legacy, to every creator and writer and artist, and every story ever written in that time and to every longterm fan.

Longterm fans no longer matter. No does the DC universe we all know and love. They think they have some new audience to reach out to, and they're quite willing to lose readers to do so. They don't care what their readers want, or think, or value. They don't care about the insensitivity of a move like making Barbara Gordon no longer disabled.

The sheer INSULT of the latter. . . . . there are no words.

It takes a bloody lot for me to wash my hands of something I've been invested in for a long time but at some point you have to move along. I'm no longer DC's target audience, despite having forked out my hard earned dough for the last 20-odd years on their books, so. . . bugger them.

There are now plenty of decent Indie books out there for people sick of DC's disrespect, and produced by publishers who aren't obsessed with events and are more interested in telling good stories with quality artists and writers than obsessively trying to get one up on Marvel.

[CarolStrick]

To take the serious road:

For me, DC jumped the shark at Identity Crisis, and it's been jumping with less and less room for survival ever since. Ayyy!

[Steward Ace]

Wow... somehow I missed them giving me the finger. After reading DC comics for 35 years, I can honestly say I'm pretty excited about all this. For example:

My pullist (DC) for August: JLA, Booster Gold, Detective Comics, Doc Savage, The Spirit, Secret Six, a few Vertigo books.

September: 52 titles, baby, plus the Vertigos.

You say you speak personally, then mention how DC gave the finger to all of us. Well, speaking personally myself, I haven't looked forward to anything comics-related like this for 20 years.

[ZooperSaiyan]

They should keep comic book writers away from future movies, let movie producers and movie writers lead with their own interpretation of comic book characters.

http://img842.imageshack.us/img842/5738/greenlanternedited.gif

When it comes to living that life of a big screen superhero the GL might be dead now :(

[Ari Gold]

. . . the DCUniverse has become a darker, more bleak place with the heroes exhibiting more and more flaws. with some scattered bright pockets here and there.
While conversely at the same time if you look at the Marvel Universe it's become more iconic with the heroes winning more complete victories, recieving less hatred then they used to and overall triumphing. (With some scattered dark pockets here and there.)

I think the real tragedy is that I look at all this and now it's temporary. That it's swings and roundabouts. The DCUniverse is going to have a crisis come along, absolve everyone of their sins and flaws and everyone is going to go back to the old way.
And the opposite will be true for the guys in the MU.

Great foresight.

[stk]

DiDio, Lee and Johns have essentially given the finger to 75 years of DC comics' legacy, to every creator and writer and artist, and every story ever written in that time and to every longterm fan.I doubt you have any idea how ridiculous you sound to REAL longterm fans. Aww, your little continuity is being pushed aside? Rookie. This is the second or third time around for some of us here. For some of us, the continuity you cherish and now mourn was the unwelcome replacement. So while I understand what you're going through, my sympathy is not limitless.

Get used to the idea. It's a new generation's turn, just as it was when the continuity you grew up with came along. But this time, you don't get to be the new generation. So you can either find books in the new DC line to enjoy or you can choose to move on, but don't expect history to stop just because this time YOU are of the generation whose continuity is now getting replaced.

[MTL76]

It's hard for a whole comic universe to jump the shark, but Wildstorm did (for me, anyway.) The scrapping of the original Gen 13 team and the serial relaunches that followed, the "End of the World" storyline, the literal destruction of its universe by Captain Atom... Too bad.

[Lancerman]

[QUOTE=gravling;13277760]DiDio, Lee and Johns have essentially given the finger to 75 years of DC comics' legacy, to every creator and writer and artist, and every story ever written in that time and to every longterm fan.
QUOTE]

Silver Age
Crisis on Infinite Earths
Zero Hour
Infinite Crisis

All four of those could have been argued to do the same thing.

To answer the OP's question. DC has jumped the shark many times. It has to. With a long running medium you either evolve or go extinct. The original Batman was first a pulp detective, then a fun loving adventurer, then a gothic 70's crimefighter, the a grim and gritty street warrior, then a Bat God. The original Superman barely had any half the powers he has today and was a social champion, then just a generic hero in the 50's, and unstoppable god in the silver age, and so forth until today with the pacifist Superman we have now.

Comics as a whole has constantly changed gears. For DC first you had very simple golden age stories based in WWII times with patriotic heroes, then you had the fun whacky sci fi adventures of the silver age, then we got a little bit more mature around the 80's and got darker more violent heroes, the comics have been attempting to be more adult orientated since.

To point to one specific point and say this is where everything changed for the worse is ridiculous because it's changed so radically so many times. It works for the time period. stories that were getting praised in the 90's for being edgy and violent get lambasted today for their shock tactics, stories from the silver age got retconned in the 80's because they were to goofy and lighthearted, golden age stories are to simple and dated, todays stories are to adult orientated. It will never end.

If any thing I can say that since the 70's comics have been trying to become more sophisticated and more appealing to adults. Which makes them much less accessible to children readers (who were the intended audience in the first place) and continuity has sped up alot faster in the last 30 years than it did in the previous 40. That also made it less accessible for new readers.

1. In the early 1970's Dick Grayson was still the first and only Robin, Barbara was Batgirl, Superman and Lois Lane had the same ongoing relationship they've had for decades with no marriage, Barry Allen was the only Flash with an older counterpart on Earth 2, ditto for the Green Lantern Hal Jordan who did pick up a few new partners but remained the main one).

2. Today Dick Grayson was Robin, formed the Teen Titans, became Nightwing, and became Batman. Jason Todd became Robin, died, was ressurected and became Red Hood. Tim Drake became Robin then Red Robin. Bruce Wayne had a son who is currently the forth Robin with a Dick Grayson Batman. Wally West went from Kid Flash, to Flash, to Flash #2 when Barry returned. Bart Allen became Impulse, the Kid Flash, then Flash, then Kid Flash again. Superman has died, returned, married Lois Lane, ressurected Krypton, and had destroyed agian. Hal Jordan became a villian, died and took the entire Corpse with him, Kyle Raynar became the only Green Lantern, the Hal returned brought the corpse back and now there are 4 Earth Green Lanterns and 6 other Lantern corps.

If your a kid who is just looking to get into comics what scenario sounds simpler and easier to jump on board with? The fact is all this continuity advancment only services older fans and alienates younger ones until comics have become a niche market. The Silver Age ran from the late 50's to mid 80's with very little to no changes. That was easy. You were always reading the same old Superman and Batman. There wasn't decades worth of continuity that bloated everything. A new fan shouldn't have to sign up to CBR and create a thread asking how to get started into Batman or Superman so they can enjoy the comic. But honestly how could anyone whose not a longtimed fan pick up any single issue that comes out next way and expect to be anything but lost in a mess of continuity.

[WarriorS]

Well, I suppose if we are going to necro this (Though the opinions in the thread are hilarious looking at them in hindsight)...

The current run of DC comics jumped the shark back during Countdown. Not that I don't love Final Crisis (Because I do), but I think Countdown and its string of crappy crossovers and various tie-ins really hurt the direction of DC. After its failure, I feel like the vast majority of DC had lost momentum, with the exception being the two franchises that are being keep the same (GL, Batman).

To be more specific, I think the decline of both JLA (especially Dwayne Duffie's ill-fated run, which was largely him being forced to write tie-in stories) and Teen Titans really hurt the DCU. These are both big books that should be top draws and should showcase characters who don't have their own books... but instead they just got sucked into a vortex of crap. While they may have eventually recovered, I think the damage was already done.

[Herr Mike]

The Sue Dibny rape was bad, but the moment for me, if I had to pick a moment, was Countdown to Infinite Crisis. Ted Kord headshot.

But really, it wasn't that so much as the realization that Geoff Johns wasn't going away. It was accepting that the future of DC was GL Rebirth and Infinite Crisis and Ted Kord headshots.