Principal: School 'willing to sponsor a prom, but not an orgy'

[anthony!]

I never went to prom.

Brother Kenneth M. Hoagland had heard all the stories about prom-night debauchery at his Long Island high school:

Students putting down $10,000 to rent a party house in the Hamptons.

Pre-prom cocktail parties followed by a trip to the dance in a liquor-loaded limo.

Fathers chartering a boat for their children's late-night "booze cruise."

Enough was enough, Hoagland said. So the principal of Kellenberg Memorial High School canceled the spring prom in a 2,000-word letter to parents this fall.

"It is not primarily the sex/booze/drugs that surround this event, as problematic as they might be; it is rather the flaunting of affluence, assuming exaggerated expenses, a pursuit of vanity for vanity's sake -- in a word, financial decadence," Hoagland said, fed up with what he called the "bacchanalian aspects."

http://www.cnn.com/2005/US/10/16/prom.canceled.ap/index.html

[Paploo the Ewok]

I didn't go to Prom. Instead, I spent a nice quiet night at home. And it was fun ^_^
It might seem mean for him to ruin some peoples proms, but with the kind of decadence I've witnessed, and the irresponsibility of some parents, I can't blame him. The underaged drinking alone.....

[steeler80]

I hear Caligula had a bitchin' prom.

[HomerJay]

If this would have happened at my high school, the place wouldn't still be standing.
There was a full-fledged riot my freshman year when administration threatened to defuse "senior skip-day" by issuing suspensions for those who did skip. I can't IMAGINE what would have happened if prom was cancelled for really no reason.

Cancelling a prom because there might be drinking & sex is like cancelling a pool party because people might get wet.

[Michael P]

http://michealdouchebag.ytmnd.com/

[PatrickG]

If parents can afford that stuff and are willing to spend the green, you think cancelling prom will change anything?

The only people who miss out are the people for whom prom is a special night that represents a chance at elegance, fond memories of a date, warmly remembered time with friends. By cancelling prom, this guy eliminates all of the good reasons to have a prom without halting the problems associated with it -- and, in turn, makes himself a target for angry, affluent parents.

[Shades0077]

I bet the principal had to go to his own prom with his cousin.

Or a hooker.

[Tom]

Hunh.

I completely support the guy. I give him a hell of a lot of credit for taking a stand. I wonder how many people are gonna disagree with me?

[Paploo the Ewok]

If this would have happened at my high school, the place wouldn't still be standing.
There was a full-fledged riot my freshman year when administration threatened to defuse "senior skip-day" by issuing suspensions for those who did skip. I can't IMAGINE what would have happened if prom was cancelled for really no reason.

Cancelling a prom because there might be drinking & sex is like cancelling a pool party because people might get wet.

Well, I imagine some students'll give him hell for it.
Yes, Prom is a special event for some. But at some schools, EVERY dance is a Prom, Winter Socials at my school were an excuse to rent a limo, buy a dress, virtually throw a mini prom, when it jusy used to be "wear nice clothes and hang out". Prom lost it's specialness for a lot of people I know when they did it 3 times a year....
And those kids will just find somewhere else to get drunk and act like idiots.... it's just that the drunken idiots have a tendency to ruin it for others. Which they look to have done in this case if the principal thought it a bad enough situation that he canceled it.

I always found it extremely creepy how far some parents would let their kids go, essentially letting them throw "drunken orgies" when they're as young as 14. I'm not saying that parties are a bad thing, but the things I've witnessed in my town, the things I've seen happen to people I know, I just wonder why we continue to promote this kind of culture.

[Converge]

I didn't go to Prom. Instead, I spent a nice quiet night at home. And it was fun ^_^
It might seem mean for him to ruin some peoples proms, but with the kind of decadence I've witnessed, and the irresponsibility of some parents, I can't blame him. The underaged drinking alone.....

underage drinking is every american's god-given right.

[Boldido]

Not me, I agree with the guy. He didn't fall off the turnip truck yesterday, he knows that kids drink and have sex on prom night. That wasn't the issue he had. He clearly doesn't support it, but that isn't the reason that he is cancelling it. When kids are dropping thousands and thousands of dollars on prom, it creates an atmosphere or excess and oneupsmanship that isn't healthy and that he feels the school shouldn't be promoting. Kids are dropping what, for some people, is a year's salary for a weekend in the Hamptons. This is the kind of crap that is being promoted by MTV with that stupid Sweet 16 show. Parents are just giving the kids a blank check rather than say, "Sorry sweetie, this is just prom, not the presidential inauguration, we aren't spending that much money." Instead they are trying to compete with the Joneses to see who can give their kid the most decadent prom.

[Alex Dragon]

If parents can afford that stuff and are willing to spend the green, you think cancelling prom will change anything?

The only people who miss out are the people for whom prom is a special night that represents a chance at elegance, fond memories of a date, warmly remembered time with friends. By cancelling prom, this guy eliminates all of the good reasons to have a prom without halting the problems associated with it -- and, in turn, makes himself a target for angry, affluent parents.

You're right. I'm betting that the parents will probably have enough pull to go over the principal's head and have the prom but if they can't the kids will still have the the "prom" party anyway. If the parents have enough money to do all that I'm guessing they can do their own prom without the school's help.

Speaking of proms...There were schools where I lived that had a "white" prom for the white kids and a "black" prom for the black students. When I mention that to people where I live now they're shocked to hear it. Anyone else's school handled their prom like that? I'd find it hard to believe that schools in that area where the only ones doing that.

[anthony!]

If parents can afford that stuff and are willing to spend the green, you think cancelling prom will change anything?


Thats not really the point.

If kids want to booze-it and whore-it, then by all means they have that choice in life to make. But this guy doesn't want the school or the school's name attached to it, or do anything that would encourage or excuse it.

[anthony!]

Speaking of proms...There were schools where I lived that had a "white" prom for the white kids and a "black" prom for the black students. When I mention that to people where I live now they're shocked to hear it. Anyone else's school handled their prom like that? I'd find it hard to believe that schools in that area where the only ones doing that.

I've never heard of that.

[Alex Dragon]

Hunh.

I completely support the guy. I give him a hell of a lot of credit for taking a stand. I wonder how many people are gonna disagree with me?

I do. It's his reponsiblity to keep the actual prom being held at the school decent and responsible but what happens after the school's prom ends and isn't held on school property isn't really any of his business. As pointed out, the party can still happen regardless of the school's prom happen or not. He should let the prom happen. The kids deserve it.

[The Xenos]

Well, it wasn't just the sex and drugs, it was the snotty rich kids getting their parents to foot crazy parties which would likley have sex and drugs. Some rich snot's parents rented them a damn boat. I'm rather glad these rich pieces of crap got their stupid prom shut down. Hell, I went to a prep school and I'm saying that. Then again the rich kids with parents funding their sex and alcachol and other drug habits were annoying at my school too.

-Xenos

[Alex Dragon]

Thats not really the point.

If kids want to booze-it and whore-it, then by all means they have that choice in life to make. But this guy doesn't want the school or the school's name attached to it, or do anything that would encourage or excuse it.

But if this stuff happens after the prom and the parents fund it then it really wouldn't reflect on the school. Plus, what about the kids who aren't going to get drunk and have sex? They're being punished unfairly.

[Tom]

I do. It's his reponsiblity to keep the actual prom being held at the school decent and responsible but what happens after the school's prom ends and isn't held on school property isn't really any of his business. As pointed out, the party can still happen regardless of the school's prom happen or not. He should let the prom happen. The kids deserve it.
I can't wrap my head around anyone "deserving" prom.

No, what happens after prom isn't any of his business, but as Anthony pointed out, the school has no obligation to support such activities by having a prom in the first place. I'm sure those kids will wind up having a private prom and the school will be able to say that they had nothing to do with it.

[Alex Dragon]

Well, it wasn't just the sex and drugs, it was the snotty rich kids getting their parents to foot crazy parties which would likley have sex and drugs. Some rich snot's parents rented them a damn boat. I'm rather glad these rich pieces of crap got their stupid prom shut down. Hell, I went to a prep school and I'm saying that. Then again the rich kids with parents funding their sex and alcachol and other drug habits were annoying at my school too.

-Xenos

Just because a person has money and can afford to do things they shouldn't be punished for it. And more importantly, just because some parents are going to foot the bill for the party it's unfair to punish the parents and kids who aren't funding the party and might not even go or go and behave themselves.

[Boldido]

I do. It's his reponsiblity to keep the actual prom being held at the school decent and responsible but what happens after the school's prom ends and isn't held on school property isn't really any of his business. As pointed out, the party can still happen regardless of the school's prom happen or not. He should let the prom happen. The kids deserve it.

If the prom is the event around which all this activity is focussed, then he is well within his rights and is demonstrating a great deal of courage by eliminating it.

If these kids want to go have a party and drink and get laid in limos and spend a percentage of the GNP in doing so, you are correct in asserting that they can do so, but the school doesn't have to be a part of it and doesn't need to be the catalyst.

[Alex Dragon]

I can't wrap my head around anyone "deserving" prom.

I think they do. They put in the work and effort to get through school and the prom is a celebration of their journey's end. Other classes were able to celebrate that achievement and they should be able to also. The prom is for the students so yeah, I think they deserve their night.

No, what happens after prom isn't any of his business, but as Anthony pointed out, the school has no obligation to support such activities by having a prom in the first place. I'm sure those kids will wind up having a private prom and the school will be able to say that they had nothing to do with it.

The school isn't "supporting such activities" by having a respectiful prom. The prom is a totally separate affair and the school will be able to say they had nothing to do with it because in actuality they don't. As pointed out even if the school's prom doesn't happen it won't make much difference about the party planned because the party will more than likely go on regardless so why not have it?

[Dreadstar]

If I were the principal, I'd just install a breathalizer at the entrance and double the chaperones on the floor. Then I'd deny entrance or kick kids out on the slightest whim. Heck, at my proms, there was only one entry, and there were 2 or 3 teachers ostensibly doing the meet-n-greet, when every KNEW they were smelling everyone's breath as they entered.

Nah, I'd just tell all the parents that the school doesn't allow alcohol or persons under the influence of alcohol on the premises then I'd set up the ol' breathalizer and tell the kids:

"Sorry. No blow, no go."

[Corrina]

The kids deserve it.

Deserve what? Too spend an excess of money of dresses, limos and dinner that's more than I spent on my wedding? Let's not even mention the kids who feel left out because they don't have a date or can't afford a date or can't afford to spend up to the level of the highest bidder. Why is prom such a necessity? What's so meaningful about a prom?

I'm with Tom on this one.

[Alex Dragon]

If the prom is the event around which all this activity is focussed, then he is well within his rights and is demonstrating a great deal of courage by eliminating it.

If these kids want to go have a party and drink and get laid in limos and spend a percentage of the GNP in doing so, you are correct in asserting that they can do so, but the school doesn't have to be a part of it and doesn't need to be the catalyst.

I suppose it's well within his rights but it's still unfair and not a smart move. I honestly don't think anyone will see what happens at the party as a reflection of the school. The parents (at least some) are the ones who're funding the after party and they would be the ones most vocal about such complaints. If they're responsible for the party how could they possibly hold anything negative against the school? As long as the school holds a responsible prom they've done what's right and expected.

[Typo Lad]

Hunh.

I completely support the guy. I give him a hell of a lot of credit for taking a stand. I wonder how many people are gonna disagree with me?

Not me. I agree 100%.


I'd like to shake this man's hand.

[Alex Dragon]

Deserve what? Too spend an excess of money of dresses, limos and dinner that's more than I spent on my wedding? Let's not even mention the kids who feel left out because they don't have a date or can't afford a date or can't afford to spend up to the level of the highest bidder. Why is prom such a necessity? What's so meaningful about a prom?

I'm with Tom on this one.

It's not about the money spent or what some kids will do afterwards. It's about the kids celebration of an important part of their lives ending. Looking back at it now it doesn't seem that important to me but to those kids it's a pretty big deal. Why deny them that because of a few wealthy parents or wild students? And the money part is irrelevant. It doesn't matter if the kids were having a party at the Motel 6 and drove their parents pick-up trucks to the event. They could get just as drunk and have just as much sex if they only had a couple of bucks.

[Tadhg]

It's not about the money spent or what some kids will do afterwards. It's about the kids celebration of an important part of their lives ending. Looking back at it now it doesn't seem that important to me but to those kids it's a pretty big deal. Why deny them that because of a few wealthy parents or wild students? And the money part is irrelevant. It doesn't matter if the kids were having a party at the Motel 6 and drove their parents pick-up trucks to the event. They could get just as drunk and have just as much sex if they only had a couple of bucks.

?

He said he specifically had an issue with the "financial decadance" so I'd say it is about the money spent.

[Converge]

Deserve what? Too spend an excess of money of dresses, limos and dinner that's more than I spent on my wedding? Let's not even mention the kids who feel left out because they don't have a date or can't afford a date or can't afford to spend up to the level of the highest bidder. Why is prom such a necessity? What's so meaningful about a prom?

I'm with Tom on this one.

Why don't they just cancel graduation then, too?

I'm sure there will be plenty of post-graduation parties filled with drugs, booz, and sex and some of them may even be funded by someone's parents. Let's not even mention the kids who feel left out because they didn't make the grades to graduate and have to be held back. Why is graduation such a necessity? What's so meaningful about a graduation?

[Alex Dragon]

If I were the principal, I'd just install a breathalizer at the entrance and double the chaperones on the floor. Then I'd deny entrance or kick kids out on the slightest whim. Heck, at my proms, there was only one entry, and there were 2 or 3 teachers ostensibly doing the meet-n-greet, when every KNEW they were smelling everyone's breath as they entered.

Nah, I'd just tell all the parents that the school doesn't allow alcohol or persons under the influence of alcohol on the premises then I'd set up the ol' breathalizer and tell the kids:

"Sorry. No blow, no go."

The actual prom isn't the problem. It's what happens afterwards is really the issue and quite frankly this type of behavior at after prom parties have been happening since proms started. I knew people who had hotel rooms rented for after the prom with the plan to have sex after the prom. Drinking and sex are pretty much part of the prom experience whether a big expensive party is planned or not.

[Guapo Méndez]

I bet the principal had to go to his own prom with his cousin.

Or a hooker.

I don't think so, Tim.

If he's a Marianist -the order in charge of the school I went to- most of them they join the Brotherhood either at High School or at College level.

So, he most likely didnt' have that type of prom.

[Typo Lad]

The actual prom isn't the problem. It's what happens afterwards is really the issue and quite frankly this type of behavior at after prom parties have been happening since proms started. I knew people who had hotel rooms rented for after the prom with the plan to have sex after the prom. Drinking and sex are pretty much part of the prom experience whether a big expensive party is planned or not.

But that doesn't make it OKAY, Alex.

[Converge]

But that doesn't make it OKAY, Alex.

Except that it is OKAY.

[anthony!]

I think they do. They put in the work and effort to get through school and the prom is a celebration of their journey's end. Other classes were able to celebrate that achievement and they should be able to also. The prom is for the students so yeah, I think they deserve their night.


The kids "deserve" graduation. Thats what you get at your "journey's end." Birthdays, graduations, weddings...those are true rites of passage. Proms and Homecomings are just parties and occasions. If you really want one, throw your own.

[Corrina]

Why deny them that because of a few wealthy parents or wild students?

I think his point is that it's not a few, that the entire celebration has turned from what you describe, a nice rite of passage into something much different.

[Tadhg]

Except that it is OKAY.

The Prom there has become contrary to what the school wants to instill in its students. So I'd say, it's not okay, as far as the school is concerned.

[Typo Lad]

Except that it is OKAY.

No.

You might think it's okay.

I might not.

We're both allowed to have our opinions.

This man is the head of a school. As such it is his right to not have his school host a party that he knows will be a night of one-upmanship and excess followed up with by drinking and fornication, all with the tacit aproval of parents who would rather be friends with their children than actually parent.

[anthony!]

If I were the principal, I'd just install a breathalizer at the entrance and double the chaperones on the floor. Then I'd deny entrance or kick kids out on the slightest whim.

Then I'd arrest them and find out how they got the booze, which would then allow the police the pleasure of arresting their parents.
:evilsmile

[Alex Dragon]

?

He said he specifically had an issue with the "financial decadance" so I'd say it is about the money spent.

You're right. I just re-read it. Sorry I got kinda off track. If the money being spent by parents is his problem then I disagree with him just that much more. If parents have the money to spend they shouldn't be punished or scolded for wanting to or being able to spend it on their kids. Of course if a parent has the money to help make their kid happy they're going to do it. They simply want to help make a night that's important to their kids be the best they can.

[Tadhg]

You're right. I just re-read it. Sorry I got kinda off track. If the money being spent by parents is his problem then I disagree with him just that much more. If parents have the money to spend they shouldn't be punished or scolded for wanting to or being able to spend it on their kids. Of course if a parent has the money to help make their kid happy they're going to do it. They simply want to help make a night that's important to their kids be the best they can.

But such decadance goes against the principles of the school. Why should the school and its administration compromise what they feel is right just to appease parents and children? I'm sure there'll be a non-official prom anyway, but the school shouldn't be expected to condone or accept the behavior if it's contrary to what they believe in.

[Gaz]

No.

You might think it's okay.

I might not.

We're both allowed to have our opinions.

This man is the head of a school. As such it is his right to not have his school host a party that he knows will be a night of one-upmanship and excess followed up with by drinking and fornication, all with the tacit aproval of parents who would rather be friends with their children than actually parent.
Yeah, it's not like these students are real people or anything who can choose what they want to do, and do it with or without their parents' or school's sayso. :mad:

[Alex Dragon]

But that doesn't make it OKAY, Alex.

"Okay" or not it still happens. And it will continue to happen. So it's best to acknowledge it happens and accept it or deal with it.

[anthony!]

You're right. I just re-read it. Sorry I got kinda off track. If the money being spent by parents is his problem then I disagree with him just that much more. If parents have the money to spend they shouldn't be punished or scolded for wanting to or being able to spend it on their kids. Of course if a parent has the money to help make their kid happy they're going to do it. They simply want to help make a night that's important to their kids be the best they can.

Of course, its also a CATHOLIC school...so issues of vanity and "financial decadence" are of great concern, particularly when you consider a lot of what Roman Catholicism talks about these days.

Why throw a vane party after years of trying to instill a little humility in the rich little bastards? These sound like rather privelaged kids as is.

Like some have said earlier, its not going to stop them from having their all-night, under-age keggers and orgies in the Hamptons on daddy's million-dollar yacht— but at least the school can rest at ease knowing that it did nothing to help bring it about.

[Typo Lad]

Yeah, it's not like these students are real people or anything who can choose what they want to do, and do it with or without their parents' or school's sayso. :mad:

Okay Gaz, you tell me - do you think these kids are coming up with 10,000 dollars for a Hamptons trip all by themselves? Really?

Of course they can choose to go anyway. In fact, that's what the school's sort of saying, to me.

"You want to run off an drink and screw around while ridding in stretch humvees and wearing clothes that cost 3 paychecks? Fine. But don't be linking it to this school."

[K'Nort]

I think they do. They put in the work and effort to get through school and the prom is a celebration of their journey's end.

Um, no. You're thinking of graduation. Prom has zilch to do with school achievement. It's a ball. 100% frivolous.

I'm completely behind this one.

[Converge]

No.

You might think it's okay.

I might not.

We're both allowed to have our opinions.

This man is the head of a school. As such it is his right to not have his school host a party that he knows will be a night of one-upmanship and excess followed up with by drinking and fornication, all with the tacit aproval of parents who would rather be friends with their children than actually parent.

That's cool when a school principal can trump the authority of a parent.

Because it's a principal's right to force his own moral opinion on a student even if goes against the teachings of the parent.

[Typo Lad]

"Okay" or not it still happens. And it will continue to happen. So it's best to acknowledge it happens and accept it or deal with it.

Right. Which is what the gentleman in the article is doing. He's dealing with it.

Maybe it's the parent in me. When Typo Tot doesn't do the things I expect her to do, she loses privlages. Like yesterday, she was not allowed to watch TV because her toys were scattered about. She understood that she needed to clean them up first.

To this school, the post-Prom behavior is not condonable. So rather than basically condoning it by giving a prom for these events to be centered about, they remove the root cause - the prom.

[Converge]

Um, no. You're thinking of graduation. Prom has zilch to do with school achievement. It's a ball. 100% frivolous.

I'm completely behind this one.

A graduation ceremony is just a bunch of frivolous pomp and circumstance.

Why don't they just cancel the graduation ceremony and send the diploma's out by mail? After all, post-graduation parties are filled with booze and excess. And we all know that booze is evil.

[K'Nort]

That's cool when a school principal can trump the authority of a parent.

Because it's a principal's right to force his own moral opinion on a student even if goes against the teachings of the parent.

Well parents certainly expect the schools to do all the moral teachings these days, in addition to the academic ones, so there you go.

Of course, in this case, the parents are clearly 100% unqualified to transfer any concept of ethics and values unless perhaps as a warning of what not to do.


And he's not talking about the moral issues of the students. He's talking about the moral issues of the school. Which is completely his job.

[Tadhg]

That's cool when a school principal can trump the authority of a parent.

You actually have a problem with a principal dictating school matters?

[Converge]

Right. Which is what the gentleman in the article is doing. He's dealing with it.

Maybe it's the parent in me. When Typo Tot doesn't do the things I expect her to do, she loses privlages. Like yesterday, she was not allowed to watch TV because her toys were scattered about. She understood that she needed to clean them up first.

To this school, the post-Prom behavior is not condonable. So rather than basically condoning it by giving a prom for these events to be centered about, they remove the root cause - the prom.

Because high school students should be treated like toddlers by someone who isn't even their parent?

Good thinking.

[Gaz]

Okay Gaz, you tell me - do you think these kids are coming up with 10,000 dollars for a Hamptons trip all by themselves? Really?

Of course they can choose to go anyway. In fact, that's what the school's sort of saying, to me.

"You want to run off an drink and screw around while ridding in stretch humvees and wearing clothes that cost 3 paychecks? Fine. But don't be linking it to this school."
That's not really what I was commenting on, more the rather sanctamnious crack you made about "parenting". It often seems that the older one gets, the less capable of thinking on their own they view those younger than them to be. It's a trend I've noticed elsewhere and as the usual recipient of it, I get annoyed.
I personally prefer not to drink, and smaller,quieter gatherings, but not everyone does.

[Typo Lad]

That's cool when a school principal can trump the authority of a parent.

Because it's a principal's right to force his own moral opinion on a student even if goes against the teachings of the parent.

Okay, you amuse me.

Why?

Because that's exactly what Principals are FOR at Religious schools.

My daughter goes to a Yeshiva's Nursery. She gopes where I went. Why? because I agree with the philosophies espoused by the administration. If I did not agree with said philosophies, why am I sending my CHILD there?

Anyone sending their child to a Perochial school and not expecting a moral compass to be applied is at best a fool, and at worst apathetic.

[Converge]

You actually have a problem with a principal dictating school matters?

The principal is using school matters because he does not approve of what happens outside of school.

Last I checked, schools had nothing to do with post-prom parties.

[Tom]

Because high school students should be treated like toddlers by someone who isn't even their parent?

Good thinking.
I fail to see how hosting a prom is somehow treating kids like adults. I also fail to see how the school is trumpig the parents' authority. These kids and their parents are free to do whatever they want but the school is not going to sponsor it. Entirely, 100% their right.

[Typo Lad]

Because high school students should be treated like toddlers by someone who isn't even their parent?

Good thinking.

Yes well, you and I are obviously worlds apart in our mindsets.

While they shouldn't be treated like a toddler, they very much should learn to respect and obey authority figures. That's what this guy is. Not only that, he's someone paid by the parents to tell them what to do. THink about that.

[Alex Dragon]

But such decadance goes against the principles of the school. Why should the school and its administration compromise what they feel is right just to appease parents and children? I'm sure there'll be a non-official prom anyway, but the school shouldn't be expected to condone or accept the behavior if it's contrary to what they believe in.

If you take that type of attitute about what students do or how much their parents spend outside of school then they shouldn't allow wealthy parent's kid's to attend the school. They shouldn't be able to drive certain cars or wear certain clothes to school. Why is the amount of money spent so important? I still say as long as the school does it's part and remain true to what happens on school grounds and at school events that's all they can and all they're expected to do. What this principal is doing is making a judgement call that's based on his own feelings. If the party was $8,000 instead of $10,000 would he be okay with it? Where's the cut off and why does he get to choose it? He may have the right but that doesn't make his choice "right".

[Tadhg]

Because it's a principal's right to force his own moral opinion on a student even if goes against the teachings of the parent.

He's not forcing his moral opinion on a student. The students are still able to have a weekend of excess and whatever they want without any repercussions from the school. It's not like he's expelling students for going to the Hamptons.

He's in charge of the school. The prom has become something which is totally contrary to what the school stands for and so they're not holding it. Why is that wrong?

[Converge]

I fail to see how hosting a prom is somehow treating kids like adults. I also fail to see how the school is trumpig the parents' authority. These kids and their parents are free to do whatever they want but the school is not going to sponsor it. Entirely, 100% their right.

Since when do schools sponsor post-prom parties?

Oh wait, they don't. But I guess this principal thinks they do.

[anthony!]

Because high school students should be treated like toddlers by someone who isn't even their parent?

Considering most adults behave like toddlers, why not?

[Typo Lad]

The principal is using school matters because he does not approve of what happens outside of school.

When I was in Beit Medrash after College, the affiliated High School created a No Smoking Policy. Students caught smoking would have to givew $50 to charity.

An 8th grader was walking down Main Street on a Sunday and was passed by a teacher. That Monday he was called to the Prinicpal's office and told that he would have to leave school or give the fine.

He protested 'But I wasn't in school at the time!"

The answer was that wherever he is, whatever he is doing, he is reprasentative of his school and is expected to act accordingly.

When I have a son, I intend to send him there.

[Boldido]

That's cool when a school principal can trump the authority of a parent.

Because it's a principal's right to force his own moral opinion on a student even if goes against the teachings of the parent.

This is a private Roman Catholic High School. The principal is a brother. Of course they are about morals. Their job is to create an environment that comports with the moral teachings of the Church. If the parents want to have an, "I'm going to indulge and spoil my kids so they can drink and fuck like rockstars in opulent surroundings weekend," there is nothing stopping them, but it won't be associated with a social event put on by the school.

[Tom]

Where's the cut off and why does he get to choose it?
I can't believe people are having such a hard time with this concept. He's not choosing what these people get to do outside of school. They are still free to do it. He's choosing to not have the school sponsor an event that leads to behavior the school doesn't support. There's a huge difference.

[Typo Lad]

He may have the right but that doesn't make his choice "right".

Right... but here's the thing:

If you don't like it, you can send your kid to another school. Or throw an "underground" Prom.

All he's saying is that he won't give a prom. he's not saying kid's can't have a party.

[sixstringguild]

Hunh.

I completely support the guy. I give him a hell of a lot of credit for taking a stand. I wonder how many people are gonna disagree with me?


I was thinking the same thing, Tom (scary I know)...the guy had major cajones for sending the letter to the parents and cancelling prom. I'm sure as we speak he is getting phone calls out the wazoo...

[K'Nort]

A graduation ceremony is just a bunch of frivolous pomp and circumstance.

Well of course except for the fact that it clearly is not.

A graduation ceremony is commemorating a milestone. It is recognizing and honoring the students for making it through school. And it is at least as much for the parents/grandparents/etc as it is for the students.

A prom is the modern leftovers of the debutante ball. And no longer how the average student is supposed to find a spouse. I had one. I loved it. I'm all for them. But the community -- particularly the parents -- brought this one on themselves.

And one more time : this isn't about alcohol.

[Typo Lad]

Anyone remember Guapo's stories about the young ladies who's parents drugged the Nuns at their retreat so they could go party?

[Converge]

Am I living in the 1950s right now or what?

You people are all crazy.

[Tom]

Since when do schools sponsor post-prom parties?

Oh wait, they don't. But I guess this principal thinks they do.
Reading comprehension. Try it some time.

[Tadhg]

Since when do schools sponsor post-prom parties?

Oh wait, they don't. But I guess this principal thinks they do.

No. The entire Prom event has come to stand for something the school doesn't approve of, therefore they're not holding the Prom.

[Guapo Méndez]

Because high school students should be treated like toddlers by someone who isn't even their parent?

Good thinking.

High School kids -with more bankroll than most working class people- who want to blow upwards 20k in one night and drink themselves silly (underage drinking...kinda against the law, no?) do not deserve to be treated like toddlers.

Their parents do.


We had a similar situation at work. We had a yearly event where we would meet and greet the students, give them the school T-Shirt and had a social gathering of sorts.

By year 5 it had become an alcohol driven festival, where college kids were dragged home. Last year the party ended well past midnight (for a party that started at noon). Clearly not what we wanted to be a) in charge and b) responsible for.

So this year we -the school- cut off booze entirely. Same number of people came -even those who bitched about the no booze rule- and we all had a
good time. Some said that next year they are bringing their families.

[Typo Lad]

Am I living in the 1950s right now or what?

You people are all crazy.

You're entitled to your opinion.

You're being a bit rude, but that's okay. That's your right.

We were just raised different, I suppose.

[Gaz]

Yes well, you and I are obviously worlds apart in our mindsets.

While they shouldn't be treated like a toddler, they very much should learn to respect and obey authority figures. That's what this guy is. Not only that, he's someone paid by the parents to tell them what to do. THink about that.
This is surprising to me, Morts. (bolded)
These kids aren't old enough to be able to question authority, or at least ask that their respect be earned? Because at high school, I was able to do that. I had, and still have, great respect for my English teacher. But not for our headmaster, he was a totally pedantic man, more reliant on the minutiae of the rules than dealing with core problems, and he would ramble on, saying in 500 words what could have been done in 15.

[anthony!]

I can't believe people are having such a hard time with this concept. He's not choosing what these people get to do outside of school. They are still free to do it. He's choosing to not have the school sponsor an event that leads to behavior the school doesn't support. There's a huge difference.


It truly is a Bizarro day, as I've agreed with Tom completely. Wow.

[Converge]

We were just raised different, I suppose.

Extremely different.

[Corrina]

If you take that type of attitute about what students do or how much their parents spend outside of school then they shouldn't allow wealthy parent's kid's to attend the school. They shouldn't be able to drive certain cars or wear certain clothes to school.

If it's a Catholic school, it's entirely likely that the students are wearing school uniforms and have restricted driving rights.

[Boldido]

A graduation ceremony is just a bunch of frivolous pomp and circumstance.

Why don't they just cancel the graduation ceremony and send the diploma's out by mail? After all, post-graduation parties are filled with booze and excess. And we all know that booze is evil.

Errr...no...a graduation ceremony is a recognition of the student's achievement. Its a recognition of the work they have done for the past four years. All graduation parties I attended also had...er...what are those things called again...you know...those people that are supposed to nurture you...oh, yeah...parents, they also usually have grandparents and aunts and uncles, and friends.

Your prom v. graduation analogy just doesn't work for a myriad of reasons. Only some of which have been addressed by me or others. You are trying to compare apples and belt sanders.

[Alex Dragon]

Right. Which is what the gentleman in the article is doing. He's dealing with it.

Maybe it's the parent in me. When Typo Tot doesn't do the things I expect her to do, she loses privlages. Like yesterday, she was not allowed to watch TV because her toys were scattered about. She understood that she needed to clean them up first.

To this school, the post-Prom behavior is not condonable. So rather than basically condoning it by giving a prom for these events to be centered about, they remove the root cause - the prom.

But like it's been pointed out the principle is more concerned about the money being spent not the activities going on. So he's not really "dealing with it". If he were more concerned with the sex and drinking aspect I could at least see his point. The sex and drinking is pretty much the unspoken thing that people accept goes on. If people raise their kids properly it won't be a problem for those people and those kids will act responsibly.

[K'Nort]

Anyone remember Guapo's stories about the young ladies who's parents drugged the Nuns at their retreat so they could go party?

Excellent analogy.


And has anyone stopped to consider the options for the girls out in the middle of the lake/river who were interested in a fun time but not in having sex?

[Converge]

I can't believe people are having such a hard time with this concept. He's not choosing what these people get to do outside of school. They are still free to do it. He's choosing to not have the school sponsor an event that leads to behavior the school doesn't support. There's a huge difference.

And doesn't this behavior take place away from prom, outside of the school?

[Typo Lad]

This is surprising to me, Morts. (bolded)
These kids aren't old enough to be able to question authority, or at least ask that their respect be earned? Because at high school, I was able to do that. I had, and still have, great respect for my English teacher. But not for our headmaster, he was a totally pedantic man, more reliant on the minutiae of the rules than dealing with core problems, and he would ramble on, saying in 500 words what could have been done in 15.

Oh I understand your point. I was addressing Converge, who seemed to think that a Principal has no authority over these kids.

Hell, in Seventh grade I spent an evening in Detention (which they'd never had before. They invented it just for us) cursing out the Vice Principal. No, I was not in there FOR cursing him out - I was doing it while sitting there. To his face.

He gave me an extra 10 minutes.

And you know what?

I deserved it.

He may have been a small-minded asshole, but he was still my Vice Principal. He was my Boss, in a sense.

You don't get to mouth off to your boss.

You can call Human Resources and complain, but you don't mouth off.

In school, HR is your parents.

[Tom]

And doesn't this behavior take place away from prom, outside of the school?
Yes, and (pay attention) HE'S DONE ABSOLUTELY NOTHING TO RESTRICT THESE ACTIVITIES.

[Tadhg]

And doesn't this behavior take place away from prom, outside of the school?


The ENTIRE Prom event has become one of financial decadance and oneupmanship including afterparties and limos and drinking and fornicating. It's the spirit of the ENTIRE thing that the school is objecting to, which is why they're not holding the prom.

[Typo Lad]

Excellent analogy.

Thanks. So's yours.

And has anyone stopped to consider the options for the girls out in the middle of the lake/river who were interested in a fun time but not in having sex?

"Dude, she's totally into it. Look, if she didn't want to do it, she wouldn't have come, right? What? No man, don't wake her up and ask first!"

[Converge]

Yes, and (pay attention) HE'S DONE ABSOLUTELY NOTHING TO RESTRICT THESE ACTIVITIES.

I know that.

But he cites these activities as the reason for cancelling prom.

[Tadhg]

I know that.

But he cites these activities as the reason for cancelling prom.

Those activities and the decadance of the ENTIRE thing.

[Converge]

Oh I understand your point. I was addressing Converge, who seemed to think that a Principal has no authority over these kids.


They have authority, but not when it comes to enforcing morality.

I never went to a Christian school, but this kind of behavior by a principal would have een unthinkable at my school.

[Boldido]

They have authority, but not when it comes to enforcing morality.

I never went to a Christian school, but this kind of behavior by a principal would have een unthinkable at my school.

Its a Catholic High School. They educate in all sorts of areas, including morality. Thats what religions do, morality is kind of their gig.

[Guapo Méndez]

Errr...no...a graduation ceremony is a recognition of the student's achievement. Its a recognition of the work they have done for the past four years. All graduation parties I attended also had...er...what are those things called again...you know...those people that are supposed to nurture you...oh, yeah...parents, they also usually have grandparents and aunts and uncles, and friends.

Your prom v. graduation analogy just doesn't work for a myriad of reasons. Only some of which have been addressed by me or others. You are trying to compare apples and belt sanders.

In fact, most schools have a prom and a graduation.

I had my HS graduation ceremony a few hours before the prom (which was the last prom ever held at the Club Campestre, because rowdy teenagers clogged the toilets and ripped a couple of pipes...and the kid organizing the prom skimmed from the top -and middle- about 1/3 to 2/3rds of the prom cash...but I digress).

The thing is all about setting limits. Parents should set limits on their kids.
I can't imagine my father pitching in so his kid could rent a house for 20k. He would have laughed in my face about such frivolous idea.

Then he would have suggested me to get a job so I could pay for my share on the house rental and see how I liked them apples.

And if parents are unwilling to set limits, schools are more than wise to take a step back.

[K'Nort]

They have authority, but not when it comes to enforcing morality.

I never went to a Christian school, but this kind of behavior by a principal would have een unthinkable at my school.

The entire purpose of a Christian school is to enforce strong moral behaviour. When a parent chooses to spend a ton of money to send their kid there, rather than to a public school for free, it is because they want the kids exposed to an exceptionally high level of discipline and morality.

Hell, think about nuns and rulers. They totally have that authority. It is exactly what the parents are paying them to do. It is not a public school.

[Converge]

Those activities and the decadance of the ENTIRE thing.

I don't understand that.

The fact is that a principal has a certain sphere of influence. He should not dictate school policy based on things that happen outside his sphere of influence. How a parent wishes to spend money on their own child is none of the principal's concern. What students do away from prom and outside of the school is none of the principal's concern. The fact that he would dictate school policy to try and influence what people do outside of the school (or his "sphere of influence") is reprehensible in my opinion.

[Alex Dragon]

Errr...no...a graduation ceremony is a recognition of the student's achievement. Its a recognition of the work they have done for the past four years. All graduation parties I attended also had...er...what are those things called again...you know...those people that are supposed to nurture you...oh, yeah...parents, they also usually have grandparents and aunts and uncles, and friends.

Your prom v. graduation analogy just doesn't work for a myriad of reasons. Only some of which have been addressed by me or others. You are trying to compare apples and belt sanders.

We all have different opinions on this but in my mind the graduation ceremony is in many ways just as frivolous as the prom and any number of ceremonies that people partake in, including weddings, funerals, etc.. All those things are as important as the people involved make them. You can say one is more important than the other but to the peiople involved that might not be the case. To me nothing's more frivolous than a big expensive wedding or funeral but to the people involved that's far from the case.

[Typo Lad]

They have authority, but not when it comes to enforcing morality.

I never went to a Christian school, but this kind of behavior by a principal would have een unthinkable at my school.

That's because you didn't go to a Christian School or any other sort of religious school.

You're expected to act according to the philosophies and teachings of the school. In my case, it was "Torah Im Derech Ertez" - "Torah and the way of the land" - that we should deal with the outside world, but always remember that it is the Torah that guides us.

Hell, we had seperate buildings for boys and girls from first grade and up! Same recess time.

They now have seperate recess. Which I actually think is a bit much, but hey, it's better than other Yeshivot, where you have to sign a writ stating that you don't have a TV in your house.

[K'Nort]

We all have different opinions on this but in my mind the graduation ceremony is in many ways just as frivolous as the prom and any number of ceremonies that people partake in, including weddings, funerals, etc.. All those things are as important as the people involved make them. You can say one is more important than the other but to the peiople involved that might not be the case. To me nothing's more frivolous than a big expensive wedding or funeral but to the people involved that's far from the case.

Any time you make it expensive, yes, that is frivolous.

But the crucial different between a prom and a graduation/wedding/funeral is that the prom is just the students and the graduation is the students sharing the moment with their families. Just like the point to a wedding is for the couple to share the moment with their families. Etc.

[Tom]

I know that.

But he cites these activities as the reason for cancelling prom.
Because the prom leads directly to these activities.

[Gaz]

Oh I understand your point. I was addressing Converge, who seemed to think that a Principal has no authority over these kids.

Hell, in Seventh grade I spent an evening in Detention (which they'd never had before. They invented it just for us) cursing out the Vice Principal. No, I was not in there FOR cursing him out - I was doing it while sitting there. To his face.

He gave me an extra 10 minutes.

And you know what?

I deserved it.

He may have been a small-minded asshole, but he was still my Vice Principal. He was my Boss, in a sense.

You don't get to mouth off to your boss.

You can call Human Resources and complain, but you don't mouth off.

In school, HR is your parents.

OK, how about this? (real story)
I once called our head a fascist. I was OTT for saying it, but I do NOT regret it, and the argument we were having over dress code. (I'd NEVER broken it before, and was being told I was for wearing a GREY jacket OUTSIDE of class.) I maintain I was right, and I felt strongly enough that I would've ignored any punishment. I had done nothing wrong.

[Guapo Méndez]

They have authority, but not when it comes to enforcing morality.

I never went to a Christian school, but this kind of behavior by a principal would have een unthinkable at my school.


Hence why you have trouble wrapping your brain about the matter.

Christian schools have Morality and Religion within their curricular subjects. My school motto is "Forming Good Christians and Virtuous Citizens"

That good enough to pull the plug on the Prom?

[Typo Lad]

I, obviously, did not have a Prom. Which was fine.

Graduation is very much the sum of High School. That's when you get publically lauded in front of your parents, peers, and loved ones. That's when the Principal, who maybe you didn't get along with so well, or didn't know you existed, or whatever, has to shake your hand and say "well DONE [insert name here]!"

It's an acknowledgement that you did it. That it's done. A formal decleration of the end of an era.

Wheras a Prom is... more of a "blow out" a way of saying "we have to be 'grown up' now, so let's get in one last blast".

Or so it has seemed to me.

[Tom]

Removing all the frivolous trappings from the ceremony, a graduation is about awarding diplomas. Hardly frivolous and not at all comparable to a prom, which has no goal outside of providing the students a good time.

[Tadhg]

I don't understand that. The fact is that a principal has a certain sphere of influence. He should not dictate school policy based on things that happen outside his sphere of influence. How a parent wishes to spend money on their own child is none of the principal's concern. What students do away from prom and outside of the school is none of the principal's concern. The fact that he would dictate school policy to try and influence what people do outside of the school (or his "sphere of influence") is reprehensible in my opinion.

Sweet Zombie jesus! He's not trying to influence what they do outside of school. He's just saying that since the entire Prom event has become contrary to what the school stands for, that the school won't hold the prom.

[Gaz]

Hence why you have trouble wrapping your brain about the matter.

Christian schools have Morality and Religion within their curricular subjects. My school motto is "Forming Good Christians and Virtuous Citizens"

That good enough to pull the plug on the Prom?
I think this might be part of my problem too. Having spent 4 years in such classes being told that my views are "interesting" but basically wrong because they're not strict Christian ones, I have an aversion to that approach.

[K'Nort]

OK, how about this? (real story)
I once called our head a fascist. I was OTT for saying it, but I do NOT regret it, and the argument we were having over dress code. (I'd NEVER broken it before, and was being told I was for wearing a GREY jacket OUTSIDE of class.) I maintain I was right, and I felt strongly enough that I would've ignored any punishment. I had done nothing wrong.

Do you really think that fits the definition of fascism?


Hence why you have trouble wrapping your brain about the matter.

It's not a total excuse, though. I didn't attend a Christian school either.

[Typo Lad]

OK, how about this? (real story)
I once called our head a fascist. I was OTT for saying it, but I do NOT regret it, and the argument we were having over dress code. (I'd NEVER broken it before, and was being told I was for wearing a GREY jacket OUTSIDE of class.) I maintain I was right, and I felt strongly enough that I would've ignored any punishment. I had done nothing wrong.

I was verbally dressed down publically by a Rabbi who taught the next grade up when I closed the door to our room. Next thing I know this man smashes the door open and proccedes to yell at me for saying how DARE I close the dore in his face, etc. He smashed his fist on my desk, breaking something of mine.

I told him I had not seen him and was sorry.

When he turned to walk away I pointed out that he had broken my property and just as I apolagized for an accident, did he not think it would be appropriate to apologize for his actions as well?

he walked off.

Gee, is it any wonder we got in a fist fight the next year?

Yes. I hit a Rabbi.

[Guapo Méndez]

What students do away from prom and outside of the school is none of the principal's concern. The fact that he would dictate school policy to try and influence what people do outside of the school (or his "sphere of influence") is reprehensible in my opinion.

Dude, some college kids went around in a car shooting BB guns at folks in low class neighborhoods.

The cops caught them, their names and school were splashed all over the local news.

Three were expelled from school and the fourth one was placed on severe academic probation. It happened well outside school and out of school hours, but you have to keep good behavior and uphold the moral code even when you're not in school.

[Gaz]

Do you really think that fits the definition of fascism?
No, but it was the culmination of an HOUR long argument which he dragged me out of the cafeteria to his office to have. (No lunch for me that day) He expected me to back down because of the situation and simply explaining, "this is the rule as I see it, just do it" in about 90 different ways. I got frustrated and blurted it out. Was it stupid? Yes. Do I think I was in the wrong? Absolutely not.

[Typo Lad]

I think this might be part of my problem too. Having spent 4 years in such classes being told that my views are "interesting" but basically wrong because they're not strict Christian ones, I have an aversion to that approach.

Now this I can understand. I spent much of my Elementry School being told I was unintelligent due to my poor Hebrew Skills and that I'd basically never amount to anything.

Solution? Switched schools.

I and my fellow "underachievers" went from some of the lowest grades you could imagine (seriously. Got a negative once) to getting amazing grades and genuinly loving learning.

This was another Yeshiva.

The problem isn't Christian Schools Gaz, it's the Crhistian School you went to.

Remember, just because you don't like spinach doesn't mean no-one should be allowed to serve it.

[Gaz]

Now this I can understand. I spent much of my Elementry School being told I was unintelligent due to my poor Hebrew Skills and that I'd basically never amount to anything.

Solution? Switched schools.

I and my fellow "underachievers" went from some of the lowest grades you could imagine (seriously. Got a negative once) to getting amazing grades and genuinly loving learning.

This was another Yeshiva.

The problem isn't Christian Schools Gaz, it's the Crhistian School you went to.

Remember, just because you don't like spinach doesn't mean no-one should be allowed to serve it.

Ah, but it WASN'T a Christian school. Very specifically NOT one. I'm atheist, and still everyone HAD to take Religious And Moral Education for 4 years. The teachers were always very devout Christians who paid lipservice to other faiths and views, but focused on theirs as the "right" and base ones.

[Guapo Méndez]

No, but it was the culmination of an HOUR long argument which he dragged me out of the cafeteria to his office to have. (No lunch for me that day) He expected me to back down because of the situation and simply explaining, "this is the rule as I see it, just do it" in about 90 different ways. I got frustrated and blurted it out. Was it stupid? Yes. Do I think I was in the wrong? Absolutely not.


Getting down to brass tacks: did you break dress code?


It's as simple as that.

[Typo Lad]

No, but it was the culmination of an HOUR long argument which he dragged me out of the cafeteria to his office to have. (No lunch for me that day) He expected me to back down because of the situation and simply explaining, "this is the rule as I see it, just do it" in about 90 different ways. I got frustrated and blurted it out. Was it stupid? Yes. Do I think I was in the wrong? Absolutely not.

Well Gaz, don't hate me but... he had the right to ask you to take the jacket off and had the right to punish you for not listening.

Teachers and parents don't have to explain themselves. It's nice when they do and it is polite, but at the end of the day, when they say frog, you jump.

My philosophy with Tot and my nephews, etc is "do what I say and then we will talk about why you had to do that". It's the current philosophy of my daughter's school.

Because as a parent, your job is to find a school that matches your philosophies.

Which brings us back to "if the parents don't like it, no-one says they have to send their kids there!"

[Typo Lad]

Ah, but it WASN'T a Christian school. Very specifically NOT one. I'm atheist, and still everyone HAD to take Religious And Moral Education for 4 years. The teachers were always very devout Christians who paid lipservice to other faiths and views, but focused on theirs as the "right" and base ones.

No that is a whole other kettle of fish. Having not been in that situation, I don't feel qualified to discuss it. Howevever, one would think that you would have some kind of recourse to go to the school board?

[K'Nort]

No that is a whole other kettle of fish. Having not been in that situation, I don't feel qualified to discuss it. Howevever, one would think that you would have some kind of recourse to go to the school board?

They don't have separation of church and state over there though.

[anthony!]

Interestingly enough, my high school actually had a prom and then a post-graduation ceremony party.

I don't know about the prom, cuz I didn't go— but the post-grad party was sweet. You showed up at school around 7 pm and at 10 or so the doors locked. No one could get in, and if you left you could not get back in. Inside the school they had food, games, a magic show, comedy routines, music and even some lite faux-gambling with some arts and crafts thrown in for fun. The party lasted until about 7 am the next day. It was loads of fun and very very safe. Good times.

[Gaz]

Getting down to brass tacks: did you break dress code?


It's as simple as that.
No. I did not. At least not in a substantive way. I wore uniform every day, except when designated that we could wear casual stuff. All I did was wear my lighter jacket in the spring, which happens to be grey with red trim, as opposed to the "black" that the code says. Now I'd never been admonished before any of the 5 years before this, so silly me, thinking it wasn't a problem, unlike getting rid of bullies or anything.
How about pinstripes? Anything wrong with those? Because he thought so, and banned all girls from wearing skirts or trousers with them.

[Gaz]

Well Gaz, don't hate me but... he had the right to ask you to take the jacket off and had the right to punish you for not listening.

Teachers and parents don't have to explain themselves. It's nice when they do and it is polite, but at the end of the day, when they say frog, you jump.

My philosophy with Tot and my nephews, etc is "do what I say and then we will talk about why you had to do that". It's the current philosophy of my daughter's school.

Because as a parent, your job is to find a school that matches your philosophies.

Which brings us back to "if the parents don't like it, no-one says they have to send their kids there!"

Actually, it was that, or a Catholic school. No other choices within travel distance (and we're not exactly the Gates family), the only other non-dom school there was dying because of lack of enrollment.

[Michael P]

Interestingly enough, my high school actually had a prom and then a post-graduation ceremony party.

I don't know about the prom, cuz I didn't go— but the post-grad party was sweet. You showed up at school around 7 pm and at 10 or so the doors locked. No one could get in, and if you left you could not get back in. Inside the school they had food, games, a magic show, comedy routines, music and even some lite faux-gambling with some arts and crafts thrown in for fun. The party lasted until about 7 am the next day. It was loads of fun and very very safe. Good times.Project Grad. We had one of those too.

[Dreadstar]

The actual prom isn't the problem. It's what happens afterwards is really the issue and quite frankly this type of behavior at after prom parties have been happening since proms started. I knew people who had hotel rooms rented for after the prom with the plan to have sex after the prom. Drinking and sex are pretty much part of the prom experience whether a big expensive party is planned or not.


I understand that, and it's not what I'm saying. If you'd read the inferrence in what I posted, you'll see that I'm inferring that if I were the principal, I wouldn't let the existence of post-prom shenanigans affect the prom itself. I would however put the smack down on pre-prom and during prom, if it were in my power to do so. Heck, I might even be of a mind to screen the kids on the way *OUT* of the dance, and make parental calls as I deemed fit.

I *do not* fault this guy in his handling of the situation, not one bit. I'm just saying that I'd have done it differently.

[Typo Lad]

No. I did not. At least not in a substantive way. I wore uniform every day, except when designated that we could wear casual stuff. All I did was wear my lighter jacket in the spring, which happens to be grey with red trim, as opposed to the "black" that the code says. Now I'd never been admonished before any of the 5 years before this, so silly me, thinking it wasn't a problem, unlike getting rid of bullies or anything.

Awww... did someone get beat up alot?

Why do all the bully-toys end up being Lawyers?

How about pinstripes? Anything wrong with those? Because he thought so, and banned all girls from wearing skirts or trousers with them.

Well, there *is* kind of something about watching how the lines travel down the curves...

That said, a silly school rule is still a rule.

I, for example, could only wear black pants.

[K'Nort]

No. I did not. At least not in a substantive way. I wore uniform every day, except when designated that we could wear casual stuff. All I did was wear my lighter jacket in the spring, which happens to be grey with red trim, as opposed to the "black" that the code says. Now I'd never been admonished before any of the 5 years before this, so silly me, thinking it wasn't a problem, unlike getting rid of bullies or anything.
How about pinstripes? Anything wrong with those? Because he thought so, and banned all girls from wearing skirts or trousers with them.

That actually sounds like a yes to me.

[Guapo Méndez]

No. I did not. At least not in a substantive way. I wore uniform every day, except when designated that we could wear casual stuff. All I did was wear my lighter jacket in the spring, which happens to be grey with red trim, as opposed to the "black" that the code says.

Don't give me the workaround.

You broke dress code. He had the authority to call you on it, did, and ended up being called a fascist for it.


Look, one of my jobs is to enforce dress code on our HS students. Trust me on this one, you get tired of having them try to pull a fast one on you and hide behind every conceivable reason not to be admonished while out of uniform.

I've had students bringing two types of shirst, the uniform and another one -and change in the bathroom between classes so they could be in uniform at head count and out of uniform the rest of the day.
Out of regulations jackets? check.
Jackets to cover them not wearing regulation shirt? check.
No socks? check.
No shoes -but those shoe/sandal things where it's 90% regular shoe and the back is like a sandal- check.

You were out of uniform, according to the rules. You were in a position to be called on it. The rest was you trying to defend the undefensible position of not being in uniform and being caught.

[Boldido]

No. I did not. At least not in a substantive way. I wore uniform every day, except when designated that we could wear casual stuff. All I did was wear my lighter jacket in the spring, which happens to be grey with red trim, as opposed to the "black" that the code says. Now I'd never been admonished before any of the 5 years before this, so silly me, thinking it wasn't a problem, unlike getting rid of bullies or anything.
How about pinstripes? Anything wrong with those? Because he thought so, and banned all girls from wearing skirts or trousers with them.

Translation: Yes I did violate the dress code.

I get this from my clients all the time. "Everyone at the house had marijuana, but the only arrested me."

"Er...so you had marijuana."

"Yeah, but so did everyone else, and they only arrested me!"

"But you still had marijuana?"

"But why just arrest me?!"

This is the point I usually just start banging my head into my desk. Its remarkably therapeutic.

[Gaz]

Don't give me the workaround.

You broke dress code. He had the authority to call you on it, did, and ended up being called a fascist for it.


Look, one of my jobs is to enforce dress code on our HS students. Trust me on this one, you get tired of having them try to pull a fast one on you and hide behind every conceivable reason not to be admonished while out of uniform.

I've had students bringing two types of shirst, the uniform and another one -and change in the bathroom between classes so they could be in uniform at head count and out of uniform the rest of the day.
Out of regulations jackets? check.
Jackets to cover them not wearing regulation shirt? check.
No socks? check.
No shoes -but those shoe/sandal things where it's 90% regular shoe and the back is like a sandal- check.

You were out of uniform, according to the rules. You were in a position to be called on it. The rest was you trying to defend the undefensible position of not being in uniform and being caught.

Sorry, but you're not going to convince me that I was wrong on this. The jacket was NOT part of the uniform as a whole. It was not worn in class. Unless you can give me a reason WHY I was wrong to wear it, then I will not change my mind.

[Typo Lad]

Wehn I was in Beit Medrash I broke dress-code every damn day. Found a pair of black denim pants that looked like slacks and wore them constantly.

In retrospect, the Rosh HaYeshiva knew darn well what I was doing and was just glad to see me sitting and learning.

But then, he was cool like that.

[Guapo Méndez]

Sorry, but you're not going to convince me that I was wrong on this. The jacket was NOT part of the uniform as a whole. It was not worn in class. Unless you can give me a reason WHY I was wrong to wear it, then I will not change my mind.


It should have been black.

[Gaz]

Translation: Yes I did violate the dress code.

I get this from my clients all the time. "Everyone at the house had marijuana, but the only arrested me."

"Er...so you had marijuana."

"Yeah, but so did everyone else, and they only arrested me!"

"But you still had marijuana?"

"But why just arrest me?!"

This is the point I usually just start banging my head into my desk. Its remarkably therapeutic.
Oh it was NOT just me.
Look, I got this from everyone I know, mostly. But when you obey every other rule, are a model student in every way, never miss a day but get punished for wearing one of 2 jackets you own, in order to keep warm while outside the classroom,it's hard to feel that the rule is fair.

[Typo Lad]

Sorry, but you're not going to convince me that I was wrong on this. The jacket was NOT part of the uniform as a whole. It was not worn in class. Unless you can give me a reason WHY I was wrong to wear it, then I will not change my mind.

You were wrong because an authority figure said that you were.

Just because it's a stupid rule doesn't mean it's not a rule.

[Michael P]

Enough good points have been made that I retract the statement made in my earlier ytmnd link. However, I can't help but question the wisdom of Brother Hoaglund's actions. It seems to me that he's attacking a symptom, and not a problem. If he's really so concerned about the decadent behavior exhibited by these prom-related activities, and how they fly in the face of his school's values, then it seems to me that a far better solution would be to work harder to instill those values in his students and inspire them to act in ways befitting graduates of the school. This actions seems more designed as something to draw attention to how moral he is and everyone else isn't than to fix the problem.

At the very least, he could have been more diplomatic and avoided the fire and brimstone, instead saying, "I regret having to do this to you kids, but due to the actions of previous graduating classes at and after their proms that reflected poorly on the school, we won't be having one this year, or any year after until I see that you can be trusted with the responsibility." That he instead chose "Sinners, I cast you out" gives me some insight into his motivations that, frankly, sets off my bullshit alarm.

Bottom line, my Spider-Sense tells me he's not really that concerned with the spiritual well-being of his students. He's making a rhetorical point and placing himself on a pedastal, and I can't cotton too well to that.

[Tom]

You were wrong because an authority figure said that you were.

Just because it's a stupid rule doesn't mean it's not a rule.
That's the bottom line. Yes, it sounds like a silly, overly restrictive rule but the fact remains, you were in violation of it.

[Typo Lad]

Oh it was NOT just me.
Look, I got this from everyone I know, mostly. But when you obey every other rule, are a model student in every way, never miss a day but get punished for wearing one of 2 jackets you own, in order to keep warm while outside the classroom,it's hard to feel that the rule is fair.

Fair?

What is this "fair" you speak of?

Teachers are not required to be "fair". Their job is to prepare you for life. And as much as you may hate me for dragging out this old cliche, if there is one thing life is not, it is fair.

On top of that, when someone IS a model student in every other way, then of COURSE they're going to be jumped on for breaking that one rule. More is expected from them.

[K'Nort]

Sorry, but you're not going to convince me that I was wrong on this. The jacket was NOT part of the uniform as a whole. It was not worn in class. Unless you can give me a reason WHY I was wrong to wear it, then I will not change my mind.

We're saying you were breaking the rules. It's up to you to decide whether that was wrong.

[Tadhg]

it's hard to feel that the rule is fair.

But it was still a rule. Civil disobedience is fine and dandy, but don't be suprised when you get in trouble.

[Guapo Méndez]

Bottom line, my Spider-Sense tells me he's not really that concerned with the spiritual well-being of his students. He's making a rhetorical point and placing himself on a pedastal, and I can't cotton too well to that.

Good. While you're at it, could you guess me next month's lotto numbers? ;)

[Typo Lad]

But it was still a rule. Civil disobedience is fine and dandy, but don't be suprised when you get in trouble.

Oh! We did that! Staged a sit-in to protest an unfair suspension.

What's sad is, it bloody worked.

[Slam_Bradley]

No. I did not. At least not in a substantive way.

So the answer is, in fact, Yes, you did break the dress code.

[Tom]

Enough good points have been made that I retract the statement made in my earlier ytmnd link. However, I can't help but question the wisdom of Brother Hoaglund's actions. It seems to me that he's attacking a symptom, and not a problem. If he's really so concerned about the decadent behavior exhibited by these prom-related activities, and how they fly in the face of his school's values, then it seems to me that a far better solution would be to work harder to instill those values in his students and inspire them to act in ways befitting graduates of the school. This actions seems more designed as something to draw attention to how moral he is and everyone else isn't than to fix the problem.

At the very least, he could have been more diplomatic and avoided the fire and brimstone, instead saying, "I regret having to do this to you kids, but due to the actions of previous graduating classes at and after their proms that reflected poorly on the school, we won't be having one this year, or any year after until I see that you can be trusted with the responsibility." That he instead chose "Sinners, I cast you out" gives me some insight into his motivations that, frankly, sets off my bullshit alarm.

Bottom line, my Spider-Sense tells me he's not really that concerned with the spiritual well-being of his students. He's making a rhetorical point and placing himself on a pedastal, and I can't cotton too well to that.
Michael, you're reading an awful lot into it that simply isn't there.

[Boldido]

Oh it was NOT just me.
Look, I got this from everyone I know, mostly. But when you obey every other rule, are a model student in every way, never miss a day but get punished for wearing one of 2 jackets you own, in order to keep warm while outside the classroom,it's hard to feel that the rule is fair.

"I obeyed every other law."

"You stabbed your sister fifty-eight times."

"But I didn't rape her."

"You stabbed you sister fifty-eight times."

"I bought the knife legally."

"You stabbed her fifty-eight times."

"But I drove away from the crime scene sober...and my license was valid."

"Fifty-eight times."

"Its not like she could really feel the last thirteen or fourteen stabs."

Bangs head into desk again.

[K'Nort]

it's hard to feel that the rule is fair.

"Fair is what you find on College Road in the middle of August."


That's what we always heard from my mother, growing up. Ie, that's the where and when of the state fair. And the message was that there is no other kind to expect out of life. Damned useful, really.

[Michael P]

He may have been a small-minded asshole, but he was still my Vice Principal. He was my Boss, in a sense.

You don't get to mouth off to your boss.

You can call Human Resources and complain, but you don't mouth off.

Or, if you're my brother, you salt the earth on his front lawn.

[Tom]

"Fair is what you find on College Road in the middle of August."


That's what we always heard from my mother, growing up. Ie, that's the where and when of the state fair. And the message was that there is no other kind to expect out of life. Damned useful, really.
Well, that's a little more useful than the one my mother used to say to us:

"SHE is the cat's mother."

No, I don't get it either.

[Gaz]

We're saying you were breaking the rules. It's up to you to decide whether that was wrong.
And to me, I was categorically not. Now had this been the case when I'd started there, I might have accepted it, but it wasn't untilmy last year that it was adopted. I don't know why the rule was enacted, why my jacket was "bad", and thus I kept going the way I had been, which hadn't bothered anyone or casued any problems before hand.

[Michael P]

Michael, you're reading an awful lot into it that simply isn't there.
I dunno, when I see a guy putting words like "orgy," "decadence," and "bacchanalia" into a letter to parents, I see someone who's got moralizing on his mind.

[Boldido]

Well, that's a little more useful than the one my mother used to say to us:

"SHE is the cat's mother."

No, I don't get it either.

Hmm??? My old man once backhanded me across the face for referring to my mother as "she".

"That is your mother. You will not refer to her as "she"!!!"

My dad was great, but that wasn't one his better moments.

[Gaz]

"I obeyed every other law."

"You stabbed your sister fifty-eight times."

"But I didn't rape her."

"You stabbed you sister fifty-eight times."

"I bought the knife legally."

"You stabbed her fifty-eight times."

"But I drove away from the crime scene sober...and my license was valid."

"Fifty-eight times."

"Its not like she could really feel the last thirteen or fourteen stabs."

Bangs head into desk again.

No, this is "I crossed the street"
"But that's illegal now!"
"I did it all the time and there was problem."
"Yes, but now it's bad"
"But why?"
"Because"
"Because why?"
"Just because"

[Slam_Bradley]

And to me, I was categorically not. Now had this been the case when I'd started there, I might have accepted it, but it wasn't untilmy last year that it was adopted. I don't know why the rule was enacted, why my jacket was "bad", and thus I kept going the way I had been, which hadn't bothered anyone or casued any problems before hand.


So the rules should somehow have applied to everyone but you.

[Gaz]

Awww... did someone get beat up alot?

Why do all the bully-toys end up being Lawyers?
.
Well if being hit, taunted, yelled at and spat on counts, yes.

[Gaz]

So the rules should somehow have applied to everyone but you.
No, I wouldn't have known any better. I don't think the rule was fair on anyone, even if they did accept it. It was arbitrary and served no useful purpose that I can see.

[Guapo Méndez]

No, this is "I crossed the street"
"But that's illegal now!"
"I did it all the time and there was problem."
"Yes, but now it's bad"
"But why?"
"Because"
"Because why?"
"Just because"


Oh, for Pete's sake.

which happens to be grey with red trim, as opposed to the "black" that the code says

Black is in.
Grey with red trim is out.

It's not the jacket...it's the color.

Besides, not knowing about a law does not exempt you from obeying it.

[K'Nort]

Enough good points have been made that I retract the statement made in my earlier ytmnd link. However, I can't help but question the wisdom of Brother Hoaglund's actions. It seems to me that he's attacking a symptom, and not a problem. If he's really so concerned about the decadent behavior exhibited by these prom-related activities, and how they fly in the face of his school's values, then it seems to me that a far better solution would be to work harder to instill those values in his students and inspire them to act in ways befitting graduates of the school. This actions seems more designed as something to draw attention to how moral he is and everyone else isn't than to fix the problem.

At the very least, he could have been more diplomatic and avoided the fire and brimstone, instead saying, "I regret having to do this to you kids, but due to the actions of previous graduating classes at and after their proms that reflected poorly on the school, we won't be having one this year, or any year after until I see that you can be trusted with the responsibility."

If it was the actions of the kids, that makes sense. But this is really being directed at the parents. And as long as there are parents who are deliberately choosing to cancel out the school's values, then it doesn't matter how much harder he tries.

This is a situation where you have kids who are being sent there not for any sort of moral education but because the parents know that the school also happens to have an excellent academic reputation and it will help their kid get into a better college on their way to a white-shoe law firm. They couldn't care less about the school's real reason for being and in fact encourage their kids to behave completely counter to it. The principal has every right to call bullshit on that.

Third commandment, basically.

[Guapo Méndez]

I dunno, when I see a guy putting words like "orgy," "decadence," and "bacchanalia" into a letter to parents, I see someone who's got moralizing on his mind.

Ok.

He is a Brother of a religious order.
He is a High School principal on a religious school.


And you're surprised he's moralizing?

I'm surprised you find fault with his actions.

[Slam_Bradley]

No, this is "I crossed the street"
"But that's illegal now!"
"I did it all the time and there was problem."
"Yes, but now it's bad"
"But why?"
"Because"
"Because why?"
"Just because"


So you have a right to break any law or rule as long as it was enacted after someone had previos? If the speed limit in an area goes from 45 to 35 it's still ok for everyone who has ever driven on that road previously to go 45. Interesting take on the legal system for a law student.

[Gaz]

Oh, for Pete's sake.



Black is in.
Grey with red trim is out.

It's not the jacket...it's the color.

Besides, not knowing about a law does not exempt you from obeying it.
OK, fine, I waswrong to think that I, as a humble, moronic, obedient teenager, had the right to question a rule that I thought, and still do, was totally wrong and served no real purpose, as it made little difference to how things were before.

[Tadhg]

No, I wouldn't have known any better. I don't think the rule was fair on anyone, even if they did accept it. It was arbitrary and served no useful purpose that I can see.

Unfair rules are still rules.

[Boldido]

No, this is "I crossed the street"
"But that's illegal now!"
"I did it all the time and there was problem."
"Yes, but now it's bad"
"But why?"
"Because"
"Because why?"
"Just because"

Your statement was that you obeyed every other rule.

First: That is completely irrelevant as to whether you obeyed the rule in question.

Second: You stated that the dress code called for the jacket you wore to be black. You said it was grey. Grey is not black.

There are many roads where people speed all the time. After a sufficient amount of time, people complain and speed traps get set up on those roads. It is not a defense to the law to say, "but they never enforced it before."

I know you are a friend of Blair's from school, so I assume you are studying law. You will not be doing you client's any service by arguing that they were right because they thought they were.

Objectively compare the facts to the rules. What were the facts? What were the rules?

If you were arguing that the principal said it was dark grey but you said it was black, okay then, we have a legitimate issue of fact.

If you were arguing that jackets are not covered by the dress code, but the prinicpal said they were, okay then, we have a legitimate issue of law.

What you are arguing, however is, "The rule says jackets have to be black. My jacket was not black. I got in trouble for breaking the rule. The principal is incorrect about the jacket and the rule."

It sounds to me like you feel you should have gotten a break and are pissed because he didn't give you one. Its like people who bitch about getting tickets for driving 41 in a 35. Was the cop a dick? Sure. Where they still speeding? Yep.

[Michael P]

Oh, for Pete's sake.

I think he's got a point. The school may have had every right to restrict those colors, but as the one being restricted, he had every right to ask for a clarification as to why. And by the time you're seventeen, "Because I said so" is not a good enough answer.

[Gaz]

So you have a right to break any law or rule as long as it was enacted after someone had previos? If the speed limit in an area goes from 45 to 35 it's still ok for everyone who has ever driven on that road previously to go 45. Interesting take on the legal system for a law student.
OK, explain to me how my jacket is as dangerous as driving too fast, and I'll concede the point. A rule has to have reason.

[Tom]

I dunno, when I see a guy putting words like "orgy," "decadence," and "bacchanalia" into a letter to parents, I see someone who's got moralizing on his mind.
He's a Brother in a Catholic School. Moralizing is part of his job.

[Tadhg]

OK, fine, I waswrong to think that I, as a humble, moronic, obedient teenager, had the right to question a rule that I thought, and still do, was totally wrong and served no real purpose, as it made little difference to how things were before.


You wern't questioning it, you were breaking it, and it seems that you were less than civil when taken to task for breaking the rule, as evidenced by your calling him a fascist.

I have no trouble with your breaking what you felt was an unfair rule, I did the same thing, and guess what, I was punished for breaking the rules too.

[Tom]

OK, explain to me how my jacket is as dangerous as driving too fast, and I'll concede the point. A rule has to have reason.
Not in high school they don't. Sometimes rules are in place (expecially dress code rules) for no other reason than to impose order.

[Gaz]

I think he's got a point. The school may have had every right to restrict those colors, but as the one being restricted, he had every right to ask for a clarification as to why. And by the time you're seventeen, "Because I said so" is not a good enough answer.
THANK YOU! That's all I wanted from him, and he couldn't give a better one, so why should I obey it because one man disagrees with what I wear?

[Boldido]

OK, fine, I waswrong to think that I, as a humble, moronic, obedient teenager, had the right to question a rule that I thought, and still do, was totally wrong and served no real purpose, as it made little difference to how things were before.

You might want to season your ass. I'm fairly certain the judges in Scotland will appreciate a little variety in the flavor when they chew on it when you get out of law school and into their courtrooms.

[Tadhg]

"Because I said so" is not a good enough answer.

Um. Yes it is. You may not like it, but their not giving a proper justification for the rule does not mean you are able to break the rule without suffering the consquences.

[Slam_Bradley]

OK, explain to me how my jacket is as dangerous as driving too fast, and I'll concede the point. A rule has to have reason.


It's not as dangerous. However, by your logic, just because I've done it before I can continue to do it. I don't know what thinking went in to the enactment of the "jacket rule." My guess is that you don't either. There may have been a good reason for the administration to make the change. There may not have been. The fact that you don't like the rule in question doesn't mean that you can arbitrarily break it and expect there to be no consequences.

[Tadhg]

so why should I obey it because one man disagrees with what I wear?

Because it was a rule?

[Guapo Méndez]

OK, fine, I waswrong to think that I, as a humble, moronic, obedient teenager, had the right to question a rule that I thought, and still do, was totally wrong and served no real purpose, as it made little difference to how things were before.


Hey, I'm just quoting what you gave me. It's not like I have access to your student files.
You yourself told me that your jacket was not black -like the code stipulated-, but grey and red. That is an admission of wrongdoing.

Far as I'm concerned, you were dealt with appropriately.

[K'Nort]

I think he's got a point. The school may have had every right to restrict those colors, but as the one being restricted, he had every right to ask for a clarification as to why. And by the time you're seventeen, "Because I said so" is not a good enough answer.

It's not a satisfactory answer. And I certainly questioned authority every chance I got. But although he has every right to request clarification, he does not have a right to get it. Nor to avoid punishment for breaking a rule he disagreed with.

[Boldido]

I think he's got a point. The school may have had every right to restrict those colors, but as the one being restricted, he had every right to ask for a clarification as to why. And by the time you're seventeen, "Because I said so" is not a good enough answer.

He is in law school Michael. He needs to learn when and where "Because I said so," is an answer. I tell all my clients that they will not win the fight with the cops on the street. You save the fight for the courtroom. If the fight is with the judge, than "because I said so" is what you have to accept. You work around it on behalf of your client. You mitigate the damage that is done as much as you can. If you can work around a "because I said so" and still win, you save yourself the cost and time of an appeal, and the jail time the client has to serve awaiting the appeal. In his anticipated line of work, "because I said so" is going to be part of his life again.

[Gaz]

You might want to season your ass. I'm fairly certain the judges in Scotland will appreciate a little variety in the flavor when they chew on it when you get out of law school and into their courtrooms.
1. This isn't a case where I'm contesting what the rule was, or that I was breaking it. It's one where I think the rule was wrong.

2. Who says I want to actually practice?

[Guapo Méndez]

I think he's got a point. The school may have had every right to restrict those colors, but as the one being restricted, he had every right to ask for a clarification as to why. And by the time you're seventeen, "Because I said so" is not a good enough answer.


Are you serious?

Dress code. Black. Grey and red.

[Dreadstar]

Besides, not knowing about a law does not exempt you from obeying it.


I'm completely surprised that this isn't tattooed on the back of everone's hand at brith.

...the other hand should have "...and life isn't fair. Suck it up."

[Tom]

1. This isn't a case where I'm contesting what the rule was, or that I was breaking it. It's one where I think the rule was wrong.


Second sentence contradicts the first. If you think a rule is wrong and say so, you are in fact contesting the rule.

[Michael P]

Are you serious?

Dress code. Black. Grey and red.
Go back and read. He was asking why the dress code had changed.

[Dreadstar]

. . .And by the time you're seventeen, "Because I said so" is not a good enough answer.

Unfortunately, until you're 18 (and even after in the work world, trust me) you may have to live with the unsatisfactory answer and move on.

[Gaz]

Hey, I'm just quoting what you gave me. It's not like I have access to your student files.
You yourself told me that your jacket was not black -like the code stipulated-, but grey and red. That is an admission of wrongdoing.

Far as I'm concerned, you were dealt with appropriately.
All I really got was the lecture, actually, and I eventually ditched the jacket for an "approved" sweatshirt when the weather turned better.
But, fine, I concede the point. I was wrong. Rules are rules are rules, without question and no explanation for why they're created is needed.
Now how is that NOT fascist?

[Michael P]

He is in law school Michael. He needs to learn when and where "Because I said so," is an answer. I tell all my clients that they will not win the fight with the cops on the street. You save the fight for the courtroom. If the fight is with the judge, than "because I said so" is what you have to accept. You work around it on behalf of your client. You mitigate the damage that is done as much as you can. If you can work around a "because I said so" and still win, you save yourself the cost and time of an appeal, and the jail time the client has to serve awaiting the appeal. In his anticipated line of work, "because I said