Principal: School 'willing to sponsor a prom, but not an orgy' [Archive] - Page 3

anthony!

10-18-2005, 08:07 AM

I find really interesting the opinions of those who seem to feel kids are deserving of a prom. I really don't know where that comes from.

To me its just further proof that we're living in an age where more and more people feel they are entitled to material wealth and experiences far exceeding what could be considered a basic human need. Education is something everyone should have and is "deserving" of. A prom isn't, and I think any sensible person who takes a step back and looks at it objectively would come to a similar conclusion.

And yes, if they had the prom and a big accident occured...I'd be willing to bet a lot of the same voices crying fowl over cancelling the prom would be all up in the school's ass over why they did have one.

This principal is the head of a wealthy Roman Catholic private school. In the context of the religion, thats almost a contradiction of terms. Not only is he in charge of providing a modern education to those kids, he's also got to instill in them the values of that Jesus Christ dude. And to make matters worse, he's doing it in a culture that would rather be watching MTV's "My Super Sweet 16" (and considering the wealth of this students, he probably lives with that every day).

Frankly— BRAVO. I hope the kids learn why he did what he did, and if not I'm sure life will teach it to them eventually. It's not as if there won't be other "chances" in college to drink and be merry, or rent a limo for the girlfriend. Assuming most of these kids are going to college, they're getting ready to really discover what they are about and what they want to do in life, and the occasion of cancelling the prom is a good first salvo at opening their eyes.

Tom

10-18-2005, 08:11 AM

Nobody, despite protests, is indifferent to prom.

It's either a nice memory or something you'd rather forget.

It's neither of those things. It's a party I went to 20 years ago. That's it.

anthony!

10-18-2005, 08:15 AM

How many people are taking neutral stances here?

Well, in the context of the principal's reasons for canceling this particular prom, I'm on his side.

But I'm neutral to the idea of prom. I didn't go, but I'm not antagonistic towards it— and certainly don't look down on people who do go. I just sort of roll my eyes at people who really make a big big deal of it. Seriously, its just a party, not a major life milestone.

PatrickG

10-18-2005, 08:17 AM

Corrina

10-18-2005, 08:17 AM

It also strikes me that the principal also wanted to send a message to the effect that this whole trend disturbs him. He wanted people thinking about it, what prom really means and if it's worth this type of monetary and emotional investment.

Doing it so early in the school year tells me he both wanted to give parents time to organize their own prom and for them to really think about exactly what message they were sending to their kids. That's his job, he's the head of a religious school and these kids are under his charge. I applaud him for his stance.

Doesn't mean I think prom is stupid. I do understand it seems really, really important to many people of that age. The problem is, like many things, prom has gotten out of hand from a nice event where kids dress up (my prom was in a gym, with a band, fancy dress, tuxes) to some sort of bloated rite of passage. The balance is off, at least in this area where this school is located.

West, I've seen you post many times and it's almost always a pleasure to read what you have to say. But you seem to be investing a lot more emotion into this thread than anyone else, more emotion in many other threads where I've seen you keep your temper despite even nastier comments and name-calling. Your entry into the thread was heated and only became more so, when no one had even attacked you. I honestly don't understand.

OzBat!

10-18-2005, 08:25 AM

"Mob Mentality"?? I read the entire 25 pages of this thread and had time to think about it's overall effect before I posted a word. If I'd known I was expected to bring a pitchfork, I would have made it worthwhile.

Your analysis, while technically correct, deliberately missed the entire point by the proverbial mile. But I'm pretty sure you knew that. You came into the thread with the attitude that people had accused you of lying on another thread, and the pre-empting comments to your posts inferred that you expected the same to happen here. Several people commented on that, so it's not just me reading between lines here. When people picked you up on that, you got hostile. "Fuck" and "Shit" got dropped quite alot early on, yes. But while you're on a statistical roll, how much of that was in the accusatory vein of what you posted?

This is why I posted to you, not the others. It's all about the intent. You might have had a point on the thread topic, but you've totally lost it underneath all the hostility. You were obviously passionate about something, and that had me interested, but besides the fact it all got derailed into "Did too!" "You First!" nonsense, what was it, really?

That's what I want to bring to your attention. You can take that in the spirit it's intended, or you can continue on your one-man crusade. Your choice, really.

Slam_Bradley

10-18-2005, 08:25 AM

It is quite possible, easy, in fact, to have enjoyed prom AND to think the school itself doesn't need to organize it in this instance.

It's almost as easy as playing the victim when no one is victimizing you.

And this is exactly my point. I went to prom. And I had a decent time. It wasn't the huge ass event that it is now. I probably spent a total of 75 1985 dollars on it (all my own money, I worked through high school). I had a great time in high school. My best friend from high school is still my best friend and we hang out alot.

But the principal of the school is well within its rights to do what he did. And his reasoning is sound. The kids and/or their parents will either organize their own prom or they won't. Either way they'll survive. Maybe they'll have leared a lesson. More importantly, maybe Mommy and Daddy will have learned something about conspicuous consumption and keeping up with the Jones'. I doubt it...but hope springs eternal.

anthony!

10-18-2005, 08:27 AM

Prom is a tradition. I think traditions need a good reason to be discontinued.

One little caveat— its not a Roman Catholic tradition. Plus, as the principal said the prom was no longer what "proms" where supposed to be about. It became more about one up-manship, vanity and "financial decadence", i.e. values that are opposed to both the education and values he has been hired to instill.

We're not talking about a government program here. We're talking about a rite of passage.

It's not a rite of passage. GRADUATION IS. It's a party and not much more. You could have a "prom" tonight if you wanted to.

Schools are focusing on education at the expense of everything else and damaging education in the process.

Actually, this really is an education. It's a slap in the face to snots who more than likely believe that happiness can be obtained by flaunting money and power. Seriously...20K in one night?! I could pay my college loan TWICE with that, and still have enough left over for rent and bills.

What's the purpose of education anyway, if not to offer experiences?

When those experiences are in direct contradiction to the values you are there to teach...its not much of a decision after that point.

If band trips became about late-night booze runs, I'd cancel the band trip. If football games became about anything besides good sportsmanship, I'd question the validity of having the games. These "experiences" are only intended to enrich and enhance the values and concepts the school teaches in the classroom. When that ceases to be, its a disservice to the kids, who deserve better than that.

west3man

10-18-2005, 08:27 AM

West, I've seen you post many times and it's almost always a pleasure to read what you have to say. Thank you.

But you seem to be investing a lot more emotion into this thread than anyone else, more emotion in many other threads where I've seen you keep your temper despite even nastier comments and name-calling. Emotion's not a problem. How one expresses it is. I haven't called anyone a name here, but I have had a problem with being mischaracterized and called out for something that pales in comparison to the other behavior in this thread.

If and when I get upset by repeated examples of unfair treatment, I feel it should be understandable - particularly when I express that displeasure without calling people names.

Your entry into the thread was heated and only became more so, when no one had even attacked you. I honestly don't understand. With all due respect, Corrina, you need to take another look at the thread and my entry into it. Not only was my entry the opposite of "heated," but my response to the behavior I disliked was no worse than the behavior, itself... and it only came after pages of dogpiling.

I don't know if you're mistaking my posts for someone else's or what. I also don't understand.

TCJohnson

10-18-2005, 08:27 AM

The kids are not going to miss out on damn thing. If their parents are willing to book a booze cruise for them or a party pad in the Hamptons, then of couse their parents are going to throw them a prom.

You are assuming that all the parents are willing to book booze cruise for them or a party pad in the hamptons. The area I lived in had the third highest average family income in the country. There were some insanely rich people in my school, but that doesn't mean everybody was rich. Most likely it was only a few students who were putting insane amounts of money for this, yet the entire student body is being punished.

One thing I had missed, that Corrina just pointed out, is that Prom is far away. This isn't a sudden announcement, so that makes it more understandable.

Tom

10-18-2005, 08:29 AM

You are assuming that all the parents are willing to book booze cruise for them or a party pad in the hamptons. The area I lived in had the third highest average family income in the country. There were some insanely rich people in my school, but that doesn't mean everybody was rich. Most likely it was only a few students who were putting insane amounts of money for this, yet the entire student body is being punished.

One thing I had missed, that Corrina just pointed out, is that Prom is far away. This isn't a sudden announcement, so that makes it more understandable.
I doubt very much that the parents are going to book a prom for their kids only. That doesn't make sense. It's not really a prom if there's only 10 couples there. All any parent has to do is put a down payment on a venue and start collecting ticket money. I can practically guarantee that's going to happen.

TCJohnson

10-18-2005, 08:31 AM

It's not a rite of passage. GRADUATION IS. It's a party and not much more. You could have a "prom" tonight if you wanted to.

It is a right of passage. It is part of tradition in American schools, it is part of ceremony. It is part of the rite of passage that is the end of high school.

TCJohnson

10-18-2005, 08:34 AM

I doubt very much that the parents are going to book a prom for their kids only. That doesn't make sense. It's not really a prom if there's only 10 couples there. All any parent has to do is put a down payment on a venue and start collecting ticket money. I can practically guarantee that's going to happen.

I can also see it where only the cool kids or the incroud could be invited. It depends on how snotty it is.

west3man

10-18-2005, 08:35 AM

"Mob Mentality"?? I read the entire 25 pages of this thread and had time to think about it's overall effect before I posted a word. If I'd known I was expected to bring a pitchfork, I would have made it worthwhile.

Your analysis, while technically correct, Stop there. Yes, my analysis was correct, so your point, which was based upon false analysis, was invalid.

And how do you respond after having falsely accused me of something that plenty of others are clearly guilty of...?
deliberately missed the entire point by the proverbial mile. You tell me that I not only missed your point, which is human, but that I did so intentionally.

I caught your point. Here it is back at you, OzBat!, look at what you've said to me here and consider if you could've made your points without suggesting that I'm being disingenuous - that I'm just trying to fight with people. Yes, you could've.

Interesting how you've chosen to start your reply to me, after talking about MY heated entry into this thread.

But I'm pretty sure you knew that. You came into the thread with the attitude that people had accused you of lying on another thread, and the pre-empting comments to your posts inferred that you expected the same to happen here. There was no attitude. I simply tossed in a comment that everyone else it didn't apply to could've ignored... as they imply should've been done with howy's comment.

Several people commented on that, so it's not just me reading between lines here. So, if I got several people who agreed with me, would that make you wrong? Or would it make they cancel each other out? No.

Multiple people can and have been wrong. This is another example of it.

When people picked you up on that, you got hostile. "Fuck" and "Shit" got dropped quite alot early on, yes. But while you're on a statistical roll, how much of that was in the accusatory vein of what you posted? Mine was at the end of pages of NOT doing that. I got pissed off. I wasn't the first and won't be the last.

I am the ONLY one that got this much of a "scolding" for it, though.

This is why I posted to you, not the others. It's all about the intent. Then you've misread my intent.

Try asking me more than telling me. Try discussion without accusation. But try it on someone else because you've taken too long to realize this and I'm uninterested in discussing this with you any further.

OzBat!

10-18-2005, 08:37 AM

Re: "Rite of Passage"... I agree and I don't agree. If it's a Rite of Passage along the lines of an event that symbolises the end of one thing and the beginning of another, it clearly doesn't fit. Heck, most Proms are well before the end of the school year. Graduation is the school event that fits this definition.

On the other hand, if it's "Rite of Passage" along the lines of something that everybody goes through, that makes it a milestone in and of itself, simply because everybody goes through it at around the same time of life. It's a touchstone with a common period or event amongst a large group. And in that regard, yes I'd agree.

Of the two definitions however, I'd say only Graduation could meet both of them.

TCJohnson

10-18-2005, 08:44 AM

OzBat!

10-18-2005, 08:48 AM

I caught your point. Here it is back at you, OzBat!, look at what you've said to me here and consider if you could've made your points without suggesting that I'm being disingenuous - that I'm just trying to fight with people. Yes, you could've.Multiple people can and have been wrong. This is another example of it.I don't know if you're mistaking my posts for someone else's or what. I also don't understand.Even Corrina has brought this to your attention. She's been entirely reasonable too. So maybe, just maybe, it's not malicious dogpiling for no reason. It's not multiple people all being wrong. Something to consider?Try asking me more than telling me. Try discussion without accusation. But try it on someone else because you've taken too long to realize this and I'm uninterested in discussing this with you any further.Or maybe not to consider. Fine. End of discussion.

Oh, and I'm going to bed, it's 12:45 am here in Australia. Just in case anybody accuses me of ducking and running.

Gee, I hope nobody misconstrues that as an inference that I'm sure they'd accuse me of doing such a thing. Maybe I shouldn't have said anything?

west3man

10-18-2005, 08:49 AM

I don't understand this. Proms aren't normally held on school property, nor are they normally paid for by the school. Really, all the school does is organize it. Whether their parents organize it or their faculty does, I can't see how there would be any discernible difference.
Rules, costs, management, location, accountability, etc.

These things change or become less intuitive. It's a different animal when it's not a school function. It could even be exclusionary.

It's just different, imo. In fact, instead of decreasing the chances that the "negative" things will occur, they've probably INcreased.

As I've said before, I do not think it's necessarily the worst thing for the school to not "run" the prom. I just do not agree with the principal's decision.

anthony!

10-18-2005, 08:50 AM

It is a right of passage. It is part of tradition in American schools, it is part of ceremony. It is part of the rite of passage that is the end of high school.

If its a rite of passage, then that a really sad-ass commentary on American culture.

Well I completely disagree, and it looks like others feel that way too. No one is entitled to a prom. It's a privelage provided by the school, and the school gets to decided if it will sponsor one. Tough cookies, IMHO.

PatrickG

10-18-2005, 08:54 AM

And the parents get to decide if their kid goes to that school.

TCJohnson

10-18-2005, 08:54 AM

Well I completely disagree, and it looks like others feel that way too.

Well, others feel the same way I do. So what's your point?

If its a rite of passage, then that a really sad-ass commentary on American culture.

And why is that? Why is celebrating the end of a stage of your life important?

Dreadstar

10-18-2005, 08:55 AM

Wow, this is entertaining.

And for those of you who've questioned motives before, I'm hoping it's instructional, as well.

anthony!

10-18-2005, 09:01 AM

Because there's graduation, which serves the point better and is directly tied to the education you've been receiving for the last 18 or so years. Just because there isn't limos envolved doesn't mean it isn't the more appropriate "rite of passage"

Not that any of it matters to those who couldn't care less. The parents that are really all up in arms about it will still find a solution, and drop unnecessary amounts of money. Just as the parents have the power to throw a party on their own, so to does the school have the power to withdrawl its support of a celebration contrary to its mission and values.

anthony!

10-18-2005, 09:04 AM

And the parents get to decide if their kid goes to that school.

And the Church gets to decide if the parents and students are Catholic.

Seriously, this whole debate is surreal. :rolleyes:

Dreadstar

10-18-2005, 09:05 AM

Not that any of it matters to those who couldn't care less. The parents that are really all up in arms about it will still find a solution, and drop unnecessary amounts of money. Just as the parents have the power to throw a party on their own, so to does the school have the power to withdrawl its support of a celebration contrary to its mission and values.

I don't get why the idea in this paragraph is so hard to understand.

PatrickG

10-18-2005, 09:06 AM

I just find it a little backwards to think that one night of boys and girls dancing and spending money is contrary to a religion's values.

TCJohnson

10-18-2005, 09:06 AM

Dreadstar

10-18-2005, 09:08 AM

I just find it a little backwards to think that one night of boys and girls dancing and spending money is contrary to a religion's values.

That's a gross oversimplification of the pricipal's reasoning.

Tadhg

10-18-2005, 09:09 AM

I just find it a little backwards to think that one night of boys and girls dancing and spending money is contrary to a religion's values.

It's not just spending money, in this case, the prom has become a culture of over-spending and oneupmanship. And such vanity is against the religions values.

PatrickG

10-18-2005, 09:12 AM

It's not just spending money, in this case, the prom has become a culture of over-spending and oneupmanship. And such vanity is against the religions values.

So you're in favor of school uniforms too? 'Cause a few people died for their sneakers before so I guess we'd better supress all signs of individuality.

Guapo Méndez

10-18-2005, 09:12 AM

F-word:

ct) post#, poster, notes
5) #360, west3man quoting howyadoin

Uh...unless I'm reading wrong, post 360 is not a quote. Not by a long shot, not by a country mile. That's 100% west3man's words because you're not using the "quote" function. Ditto post 389.

Then on post 390 we get a whiff of the "That was my point (for those who don't believe me, this is more in-line with what I'd already said)" which is called up on post 393 and taken on by you at post 396.

For the record, no one thought no one was lying. The only constant beef had been with Gaz and his liberal interpretation of the Dress Code and how later he admitted he was in the wrong.

Post 398 brings us more of the growing the eff up, which if you wanted to take the teeth out of the argument, you could have very well left the curses out and kept it down a notch.

Post 403 you get all PEOPLE. If you've never seen anyone at CBR imply that someone else was lying, then you've missed a lot of discussion. which frankly baffled me. No one in the thread we were discussing accused you of lying or had even mentioned the word "lying" in that context until you brought it up. And your "PEOPLE" wasn't exactly soothing.

Post 404 does a doubleback, because after you going all post 390, then you go all Where in this thread did I SAY anyone in it intimated that I'm lying about my arguments or whatever?. Puzzling.

Then post 425 treats us to your:

Veiled and explicit insults are all over this board and all over this country. This is nothing new.

I just got called a liar in another thread, for no good reason. I didn't insult anyone and wasn't "bitching for bitching's sake." If I choose to insert a statement to decrease the likelihood of such responses, it's really no big deal.

No one said a word when that last incident occurred and it's likely that they wouldn't the next time, either.

which sounded a lot to me like "well, I was called a liar on another thread, so I'm taking it out on this one".

Now, for Originally Posted by Guapo Méndez
Because I see you getting all worked up for no reason. At some point you came to the thread with guns blazing.

[QUOTE] Originally Posted by west3man
You don't know what you're talking about. Look at my first post on this thread. There's not a damned thing about it that says anything about "guns blazing.".

Nononono...You don't know what you're talking about. Look at my post. There's not a damned thing about it that says anything about your first post. I said "At some point" . I read your first few posts and those made sense, eventhough I disagreed with them. Post 360 was the one that made me stand up and listen.

I'm so sick of people doing this. I'm working very fucking hard not to go off on anyone or be rude or insulting and you don't have SHIT to say to anybody else, but you and others have the nerve to come to me telling me I came in with guns blazing.

With all due respect...did you miss my answers to Michael Pullman and Gaz?

Good-bye.

Hasta la vista, baby.

Tadhg

10-18-2005, 09:14 AM

So you're in favor of school uniforms too? 'Cause a few people died for their sneakers before so I guess we'd better supress all signs of individuality.

*sighs* One, that reply makes no sense. Two, I'm not against Prom. I can just see why the school would not want to be involved in having the prom since it's come to stand for something that is against what they believe in. Three, What do school uniforms have to do with this? Four, Yes I am for school uniforms, but not for that strawman of an argument you put forth.

Converge

10-18-2005, 09:15 AM

Let's all agree to disagree and agree that I'm the winner of this topic.

Converge - 1
Everyone else - 0

west3man

10-18-2005, 09:16 AM

Uh...unless I'm reading wrong, post 360 is not a quote. Not by a long shot, not by a country mile. That's 100% west3man's words because you're not using the "quote" function. Ditto post 389.
How did people quote other people before "the quote function" was invented?

TCJohnson

10-18-2005, 09:16 AM

Let's all agree to disagree and agree that I'm the winner of this topic.

I disagree. Hey, you agreed to it!

west3man

10-18-2005, 09:17 AM

For the record, no one thought no one was lying.
For the record, you don't KNOW that "no one thought no one was lying."

Dreadstar

10-18-2005, 09:18 AM

I disagree. Hey, you agreed to it!

That's actually better logic than I've seen bandied about for a good chunk of this thread.

Kudos!

Converge

10-18-2005, 09:18 AM

Isn't that a double negative?

JeffreyWKramer

10-18-2005, 09:19 AM

Wow. I skipped this thread yesterday, decided to give it a look today.

Not the best decision I've made lately.

I hereby nominate this particular thread for an unofficial Corrie, as the worst thread of the past year not dominated by either iwarrior or Samurai.

Converge

10-18-2005, 09:19 AM

I disagree. Hey, you agreed to it!

I agree to disagree with your disagreement.

Guapo Méndez

10-18-2005, 09:20 AM

So you're in favor of school uniforms too? 'Cause a few people died for their sneakers before so I guess we'd better supress all signs of individuality.

Moot point.

You are aware that private catholic schools have school uniforms?

west3man

10-18-2005, 09:20 AM

Post 398 brings us more of the growing the eff up, which if you wanted to take the teeth out of the argument, you could have very well left the curses out and kept it down a notch. So could the many, many people who quoted me quoting him.

Where are the pages and pages devoted to showing them the errors of their ways?

Post 403 you get all PEOPLE. If you've never seen anyone at CBR imply that someone else was lying, then you've missed a lot of discussion. which frankly baffled me. No one in the thread we were discussing accused you of lying or had even mentioned the word "lying" in that context until you brought it up. And your "PEOPLE" wasn't exactly soothing. No one needed to for me to put that out there in advance.

You're taking issue with "PEOPLE" and my quoting the f-word, but don't have anything to say about the person I was quoting.

Corrina

10-18-2005, 09:20 AM

So you're in favor of school uniforms too? 'Cause a few people died for their sneakers before so I guess we'd better supress all signs of individuality.

I'm certain this particular school has at least uniforms or a very specific dress code. That's part and parcel of the Catholic school experience.

YoGo

10-18-2005, 09:20 AM

This thread has become all yucky.

http://darkwing.uoregon.edu/~st005766/a3/yucky-beach.gif

JeffreyWKramer

10-18-2005, 09:21 AM

I'm certain this particular school has at least uniforms or a very specific dress code. That's part and parcel of the Catholic school experience.

I should note here, for no particulary reason, that I'm generally against school uniforms, but am quite fond of adult women dressing in schoolgirl uniforms for playful and kinky reasons.

Guapo Méndez

10-18-2005, 09:22 AM

How did people quote other people before "the quote function" was invented?

OH, geez, that one made me laugh out loud.

Tears even.

Got you one better: How did people argue before the internet was invented?

West...the fact of the matter is that the quote button is available on CBR. I've seen you use it. You know how to use it. If you did not use it for a post you were not quoting.

And you did not use "quotes" to quote howy.

west3man

10-18-2005, 09:23 AM

Then post 425 treats us to your:

which sounded a lot to me like "well, I was called a liar on another thread, so I'm taking it out on this one".
I wasn't taking anything out on anyone.

In fact, the person who called me a liar in that thread is and was participating in this thread. Pre-empting this behavior is not reflective of anyone other than those who exhibit the behavior.

Converge

10-18-2005, 09:23 AM

If you did not use it for a post you were not quoting.

Didn't you say you were a school teacher?

Corrina

10-18-2005, 09:24 AM

Jeffrey, stop that!

You drop in after 30 pages and insult us by calling it the 'worst thread' and then make kinky sex remarks totally contrary to the spirit of this thread!

You lying liar. No prom for you! Especially not the kind with drinking and sex!

TCJohnson

10-18-2005, 09:24 AM

I should note here, for no particulary reason, that I'm generally against school uniforms, but am quite fond of adult women dressing in schoolgirl uniforms for playful and kinky reasons.

I agree to agree!

west3man

10-18-2005, 09:24 AM

OH, geez, that one made me laugh out loud.

Tears even.

Got you one better: How did people argue before the internet was invented?

West...the fact of the matter is that the quote button is available on CBR. I've seen you use it. You know how to use it. If you did not use it for a post you were not quoting.

And you did not use "quotes" to quote howy.
If you'd like to split that hair, feel free.

I was quoting him whenever I used quotes around the phrase and I was referring to his statement whenever I didn't use quotes.

You know what quotes mean, so this isn't new information.

Corrina

10-18-2005, 09:26 AM

I was quoting him whenever I used quotes around the phrase and I was referring to his statement whenever I didn't use quotes.

You know what quotes mean, so this isn't new information.

Your honor and members of the judge and jury, I move this last post be stricken on the grounds that it makes my head hurt.

Guapo Méndez

10-18-2005, 09:27 AM

I wasn't taking anything out on anyone.

In fact, the person who called me a liar in that thread is and was participating in this thread. Pre-empting this behavior is not reflective of anyone other than those who exhibit the behavior.

West...do you think I went to the search function and tried to divine who was calling you what on what thread?

I have no idea who you're talking about and yet you decided to let your beef show.

west3man

10-18-2005, 09:27 AM

Nononono...You don't know what you're talking about. Look at my post. There's not a damned thing about it that says anything about your first post. What it says is, " At some point you came to the thread with guns blazing."

I was consistently active in the thread. I "came into it" when I first entered it. If that's not what you meant though, fine.

JeffreyWKramer

10-18-2005, 09:28 AM

No prom for you! Especially not the kind with drinking and sex!

I avoided prom and find it hard to care about prom.

Besides, drinking doesn't tend to go well with sex. Well, not good sex, anyway. And, I don't drink anyhow.

So there!

YoGo

10-18-2005, 09:29 AM

Guys settle down.

Geez...i got a migraine after this guy quoted this guy about quoting that guy who quoted the guy before on quoting him about using quoting to quote how quotes were made.

Guapo Méndez

10-18-2005, 09:29 AM

Didn't you say you were a school teacher?

Yes. I teach AudioVisual Theory I and II to university students.
And english is not my first language, so excuse me if my verbs and phraseology is not 100%.

Dreadstar

10-18-2005, 09:29 AM

Your honor and members of the judge and jury, I move this last post be stricken on the grounds that it makes my head hurt.

Mine exploded.

west3man

10-18-2005, 09:31 AM

With all due respect...did you miss my answers to Michael Pullman and Gaz?
If you criticized them similarly, yes.

JeffreyWKramer

10-18-2005, 09:31 AM

Yes. I teach AudioVisual Theory I and II to university students.
And english is not my first language, so excuse me if my verbs and phraseology is not 100%.

Eh, your English is better than that of at least half of the native English speaking people on the boards, and it's a fuck of a lot better than my Spanish. I can about manage to order in a Mexican restaurant.

west3man

10-18-2005, 09:33 AM

Your honor and members of the judge and jury, I move this last post be stricken on the grounds that it makes my head hurt.
Guapo's splitting hairs by claiming that I'm not quoting someone if I didn't use the quote function.

I was pointing out that using the quote symbols is sufficient.

TCJohnson

10-18-2005, 09:33 AM

I agree to disagree with your disagreement.

I hope you will agree to my disagreement of your quoting of my agreement to your agreement to disagree.

Guapo Méndez

10-18-2005, 09:33 AM

Guys settle down.

Geez...i got a migraine after this guy quoted this guy about quoting that guy who quoted the guy before on quoting him about using quoting to quote how quotes were made.

How many quotes can the quote-quoter quote?

Imagine how I feel...my spanish-english translation brain centers are going into overdrive...or maybe it was that pack of pinguinos I just ate.

Guapo Méndez

10-18-2005, 09:34 AM

Guapo's splitting hairs by claiming that I'm not quoting someone if I didn't use the quote function.

I was pointing out that using the quote symbols is sufficient.

You mean " "? Which you did not use in that post?

west3man

10-18-2005, 09:38 AM

West...do you think I went to the search function and tried to divine who was calling you what on what thread? I never suggested anything of the kind.

I have no idea who you're talking aboutClearly.

and yet you decided to let your beef show.
It's not showing a beef if I ... This is ridiculous.

I didn't accuse anyone of anything, but I was repeatedly accused. You're splitting hairs by saying I wasn't quoting someone because I failed to use the quote FUNCTION, despite the fact that I repeatedly used quotation marks. (By the way, I think THAT was Converge's point of asking you if you were an educator.)

This is weak reasoning on your part and it's not getting any better.

Tom

10-18-2005, 09:39 AM

BEST

THREAD

EVER.

Dreadstar

10-18-2005, 09:40 AM

BEST

THREAD

EVER.

SECONDED!!

YoGo

10-18-2005, 09:41 AM

Any moment Gail is gonna come in here and shoot you all.

I'm already begging her to do me first.

Converge

10-18-2005, 09:42 AM

THIRDED!

...

TCJohnson

10-18-2005, 09:42 AM

BEST

THREAD

EVER.

I disagree to agree to disagree with this!

TCJohnson

10-18-2005, 09:42 AM

Any moment Gail is gonna come in here and shoot you all.

I'm already begging her to do me first.

She already did.

JeffreyWKramer

10-18-2005, 09:42 AM

Any moment Gail is gonna come in here and shoot you all.

I'm already begging her to do me first.

You want her to do you before she shoots you?

Well, I guess the doomed are supposed to ge a last request...

Corrina

10-18-2005, 09:43 AM

I hope you will agree to my disagreement of your quoting of my agreement to your agreement to disagree.

Your honor! They're all making my head hurt now!

YoGo

10-18-2005, 09:45 AM

Hey....it stopped.

Maybe we're just in the eye of the stor.....AIIIEEEEEEEEEE it's Gail!

BLAM!

BLAM!

No!...please Gail! It's over, the thread is done! Plea...NOOO......BLAM!....

......*

west3man

10-18-2005, 09:46 AM

You mean " "? Which you did not use in that post?
You're right. When I submitted post #389 and said the following in an earlier post, I didn't quote howy. I simply referred to what he said: "I'm noting the irony of teenagers being told to grow the fuck up."

My mistake for calling it a quote when it was a reference using four of the same words the original poster used. Acknowledged.

How does this change the validity of the point that using the f-word to quote (or refer) to someone else's statement is not the same as having used it yourself? It doesn't.

Converge

10-18-2005, 09:49 AM

You're right. When I submitted post #389 and said the following in an earlier post, I didn't quote howy. I simply referred to what he said: "I'm noting the irony of teenagers being told to grow the fuck up."

My mistake for calling it a quote when it was a reference using four of the same words the original poster used. Acknowledged.

How does this change the validity of the point that using the f-word to quote (or refer) to someone else's statement is not the same as having used it yourself? It doesn't.

Wow, that was almost 200 posts ago.

JeffreyWKramer

10-18-2005, 09:50 AM

Wow, that was almost 200 posts ago.

And what percentage of them was debating that particular point?

Zack

10-18-2005, 09:52 AM

I never went to prom.[/URL]

I stayed home and rented CARRIE.

Zack Smith

Converge

10-18-2005, 09:52 AM

And what percentage of them was debating that particular point?

I don't know.

west3man

10-18-2005, 09:53 AM

It never fails.

Time and again, someone's jumped on by multiple people (and falsely accused, to boot) and by simply defending himself, he's the bad guy.

If a bunch of people hit me repeatedly and get away with it and then, one day, they hit me and I defend myself, it is not fair for me to be judged the same way as my attackers.

YoGo

10-18-2005, 09:53 AM

Bleeding....plea...gurgle..please...gasp...hel...h elp...

spleen..shot through to....gasp....'Leaving Action' thread....uurrghg...

west3man

10-18-2005, 09:54 AM

And what percentage of them was debating that particular point?
And why was that worthy of being a point of contention within the context of whether or not I was using the f-word?

It wasn't.

Dreadstar

10-18-2005, 09:55 AM

And what percentage of them was debating that particular point?

GAHHHH!

Someone might ANSWER you!

Conn Seanery

10-18-2005, 09:55 AM

I can understand Hoagland's point, but it seems excessive to make that point at the expense of the students end-of-year celebration. I know a bunch of people here are trying to devalue the image/hype of "the Prom", but like it or not, whether you approve of the after-prom activities or not, back when you're in High School it can be a very big deal.

Looking back on it now, yeah, it was just a party.

But at the time it was a pretty big deal to me. It was the end of High School, a lot of people would be going their seperate ways, and it was the last time we'd all be together (yes, there are reunions to be expected down the line*, but that's the furthest thing from your mind around Prom time, IMO). On a personal level, I remember being upset just prior to Prom because I suddenly found myself dateless (the girl who i'd been seeing thought I was still hung up on my ex), but it eventually worked itself out and my date and I had a great time, both during and after the Prom.

So yes, I think having a Prom is important, it gives closure to the High School experience. I realize people's experiences, attitudes, and memories toward High School in general vary, I just hope that all the people in this thread jeering Proms are accurately recalling their maturity levels, emotional states, and status in the bullsh*t social hierarchy when expressing their current opinions.

Anyway, DisneyWorld trip aside, I hope they find something to do for Prom, parent-funded or otherwise.

* Incidentally, my graduating class has yet to have a reunion (17 years and counting).

Guapo Méndez

10-18-2005, 09:57 AM

I never suggested anything of the kind.
.

But when you bring up that some people called you a liar on another thread, you don't think other people would go..."hum...what's he talking about..." go read that other thread and take appropriate sides?

Clearly..

Surely.

It's not showing a beef if I ... This is ridiculous..

Clearly.

I didn't accuse anyone of anything, but I was repeatedly accused. .

Only after you wrote the parenthetical stuff.

You're splitting hairs by saying I wasn't quoting someone because I failed to use the quote FUNCTION, despite the fact that I repeatedly used quotation marks. (By the way, I think THAT was Converge's point of asking you if you were an educator.)
.

Well, I think we're covering that on another post. So...am I still "splitting hairs"?

This is weak reasoning on your part and it's not getting any better.

Is my reasoning still weak?

TCJohnson

10-18-2005, 09:57 AM

west3, I don't think you are the badguy in this thread and think you are a good guy in general. It takes two to argue and this arguement just took on a strange life of it's own. A bizarre life that really should be kept in a cage and poked at with sticks. But that isn't all on you.

Let's just agree that this arguement is getting a bit out of hand and let's all mock it. You'll feel better.

west3man

10-18-2005, 09:58 AM

But when you bring up that some people called you a liar on another thread, you don't think other people would go..."hum...what's he talking about..." go read that other thread and take appropriate sides? I never said who the person was or what the thread was, Guapo, so why would I expect people to be ABLE to do that?

I wouldn't.

anthony!

10-18-2005, 09:59 AM

Wow. I could NOT be more proud of this thread. It's like I've created my own virus or something. It's causing such a stink.

I'm crying tears of pure joy.

Guapo Méndez

10-18-2005, 10:00 AM

So it was a conversational piece...."by the way..I'm being called a liar on another thread, but for this one, my opinion is..."

Ok, I can buy that.

TCJohnson

10-18-2005, 10:00 AM

I'm crying tears of pure joy.

You wussy.

west3man

10-18-2005, 10:02 AM

Only after you wrote the parenthetical stuff....which didn't accuse anyone of anything.

JeffreyWKramer

10-18-2005, 10:03 AM

And why was that worthy of being a point of contention within the context of whether or not I was using the f-word?

It wasn't.

West, I'm not involved in the argument. I'm just doofing around here. Really.

Guapo Méndez

10-18-2005, 10:03 AM

...which didn't accuse anyone of anything.

That's why I said "after".

JeffreyWKramer

10-18-2005, 10:04 AM

Wow. I could NOT be more proud of this thread. It's like I've created my own virus or something. It's causing such a stink.

I'm crying tears of pure joy.

More proof that Catholics are evil! ;)

Guapo Méndez

10-18-2005, 10:05 AM

More proof that Catholics are evil! ;)

and we don't endorse sexed up proms (or prom related events!)

west3man

10-18-2005, 10:07 AM

Well, I think we're covering that on another post. So...am I still "splitting hairs"?

Is my reasoning still weak?
Guapo, no doubt that you were right about whether I actually quoted him in those two posts. Admitted.

This does not change that *I* wasn't "using" the F-word, just as I pointed out that K'Nort wasn't "using" it so much as referring to it.

The point of the post you responded to was to show that OzBat!'s impression that I'd said the F-word over 30 times... was WRONG.

So, if you can show that I was referring to someone else's phrasing, as opposed to technically quoting them, then you've succeeded in a very small way... but you've hardly impacted the larger point, which appeared to be your goal.

Yes, that's some weak reasoning.

west3man

10-18-2005, 10:09 AM

That's why I said "after".
Umm... So you admit I wasn't accusing anyone, despite the fact that THAT'S what this has been about?

Good. I'm glad we agree.

JeffreyWKramer

10-18-2005, 10:12 AM

and we don't endorse sexed up proms (or prom related events!)

More evil!!!!!

Guapo Méndez

10-18-2005, 10:12 AM

Umm... So you admit I wasn't accusing anyone, despite the fact that THAT'S what this has been about?

Good. I'm glad we agree.

You were playing the victim.

Converge

10-18-2005, 10:14 AM

I think my feelings on this topic are best summed up by This Video (http://media5.big-boys.com/content/tradingspouses.wmv) that I made.

west3man

10-18-2005, 10:16 AM

You were playing the victim.
You're arguing without a point and have admitted as much.

Tom

10-18-2005, 10:17 AM

Dreadstar

10-18-2005, 10:18 AM

Oh, yeah... Everyone thought I was crazy, paranoid, delusional... Everyone plied me with sedatives and soothing poultices and platitudes... Everyone slapped me, kicked me and smacked me on the nose with the rolled-up newspaper for peeing on the rug...

DAMMIT that rug needed to be peed on, it was ASKING for it!

JeffreyWKramer

10-18-2005, 10:20 AM

DAMMIT that rug needed to be peed on, it was ASKING for it!

No, no, the *hooker* was asking for it. But you missed her and just got the rug.

Less drinking next time. And don't take a hooker to the prom!

west3man

10-18-2005, 10:20 AM

west3, I don't think you are the badguy in this thread and think you are a good guy in general. Thanks.

It takes two to argue and this arguement just took on a strange life of it's own. What I think people should consider is the fact that, without responding to K'Nort's and OzBat!'s unfounded accusations, the general impression would've been that they were right.

All I did was defend myself. There's a difference between that and two people choosing to fight just to fight.

A bizarre life that really should be kept in a cage and poked at with sticks. But that isn't all on you.

Let's just agree that this arguement is getting a bit out of hand and let's all mock it. You'll feel better.Nah. Making fun of it is grating, particularly while I'm still emotionally invested in it.

Unwillingness or the inability to look at this in the way that you have, looking below the surface, is very frustrating and likely to send me on my way. Thanks for offering more than that.

Tadhg

10-18-2005, 10:24 AM

Thing is, I'm really not putting down the prom. I have no problem with proms. I think they're a wonderful tradition. I do not, however, think they're owed to anyone and I do think a religious school is absolutely right to cancel one if they feel the activities are morally wrong. If this was a public school, there'd be a lot more gray, but because it's a private religious school, I think it's pretty much a black and white issue.

You use words better than I do to convey meaning.

Dreadstar

10-18-2005, 10:25 AM

You use words better than I do to convey meaning.

What did you mean by that?

Dreadstar

10-18-2005, 10:25 AM

...And don't take a hooker to the prom!

Oh yeah, like I could get a date any other way...

Guapo Méndez

10-18-2005, 10:35 AM

You're arguing without a point and have admitted as much.

Gotta love this. You take a post, strip it post-by-post of all elements until you can get to the point where you can dismiss it out of hand.

My points were that:

a) At some point, you came to the thread with guns blazing. Translation: at some point your posts started to become more and more agitated.
Where could I pinpoint that? After K'Nort's post about you being thought of as a liar, which you brought up in the first place.

b) Your "irony about teenagers" post. It was not a quote, because Howy never mentioned teenagers. He said "people". You made the teenagers and irony part, which divested the phrase of any possible significance of a quote or a referal. It was a whole new animal. You claimed it was a quote and even defended it as such, until rereading your words made you, reluctantly, admit that yeah, you had not used the quote signs, but the idea was the same. Oh, and your whole argument about me splitting hairs...yeah, as if you didn't have your pack of razors handy.

c) You telling me that I didn't tell "shit" to others, but I took it with you.
I answered back to anyone and everyone who took it with me, be it Michael Pullman with his "were you?" comment or Gaz with his Dress Code stuff. I'm not sure if I responded directly to Alex Dragon or Converge...(I think I did on the later, with me being a spanish speaker and all). You made it sound as if you were my only target, which you weren't.

Conn Seanery

10-18-2005, 10:44 AM

Good post. You must be in the wrong thread.
Sorry for the thread drift. I must've been thrown off by the topic title and linked article.

Thing is, I'm really not putting down the prom. I have no problem with proms. I think they're a wonderful tradition. I do not, however, think they're owed to anyone and I do think a religious school is absolutely right to cancel one if they feel the activities are morally wrong. If this was a public school, there'd be a lot more gray, but because it's a private religious school, I think it's pretty much a black and white issue.
Don't most High Schools have a Prom? I wouldn't think it a mistake to expect one, or even think you're owed one considering the history (if every preceding graduating class has had one). I understand the decision, it's just unfortunate that the point comes at the expense of these kids' Prom. I remember it as being something to look forward to, a real capper to the end of High School.

Joe Rice

10-18-2005, 10:46 AM

Dreadstar

10-18-2005, 10:48 AM

Guapo, if you want results then go solo Onyxia.

Tom

10-18-2005, 10:51 AM

Sorry for the thread drift. I must've been thrown off by the topic title and linked article.

Don't most High Schools have a Prom? I wouldn't think it a mistake to expect one, or even think you're owed one considering the history (if every preceding graduating class has had one). I understand the decision, it's just unfortunate that the point comes at the expense of these kids' Prom. I remember it as being something to look forward to, a real capper to the end of High School.
I don't think it's necessarily a mistake to expect one, but I think it's hubris for anyone to think they're owed one - especially if there have been problems in the past. One of the things everyone seems to have glossed over is that these kids were drinking before they got to the prom which means more than likely underage kids were showing up at a school-sponsored event drunk. To me, it's outrageous to expect a prom under those circumstances. And since it was the parents who allowed and encouraged the behavior then I think it's the parents who should be sponsoring the prom in the first place.

I went to Catholic School. It was 20 years ago and I really can't remember any specifics but as I recall, it wasn't outside of the realm of possibility to hear about other schools in the archdiocese who had their proms canceled. And if I remember correctly, it was always over things like drug use and underage drinking, so none of this seems strange to me at all and I'm assuming it wasn't outside the realm of possibility for these kids either.

Guapo Méndez

10-18-2005, 10:51 AM

Guapo, if you want results then go solo Onyxia.

Gah! Don't tell me.

Even after I finish the BRD quests, I still need to camp UBRS for the key and drop from Rend's mount for the Breastplate of Chromatic flight. Then is fun, fun, fun with 5 man groups at Scholomance for Skins of Shadow and the whole clearing the Barov family.

And I've yet to set foot in Molten Core...

Dreadstar

10-18-2005, 10:54 AM

Even after I finish the BRD quests, I still need to camp UBRS for the key and drop from Rend's mount for the Breastplate of Chromatic flight. Then is fun, fun, fun with 5 man groups at Scholomance for Skins of Shadow and the whole clearing the Barov family.

And I've yet to set foot in Molten Core...

All of which will, in contrast, bear fruit eventually.

YoGo

10-18-2005, 11:01 AM

http://img424.imageshack.us/img424/3996/12ua.gif (http://imageshack.us)

http://img161.imageshack.us/img161/9828/21oi.gif (http://imageshack.us)

http://img161.imageshack.us/img161/3743/34pc.gif (http://imageshack.us)

http://img290.imageshack.us/img290/3800/49jj.gif (http://imageshack.us)

Tom

10-18-2005, 11:03 AM

Turning flamewars into comic strips is pure genius. THIS is why God invented the internet.

Dreadstar

10-18-2005, 11:05 AM

YoGo is now my hero.

YoGo

10-18-2005, 11:06 AM

YoGo is now my hero.

Get in line.

Dreadstar

10-18-2005, 11:06 AM

THIS is why God invented the internet.

Al Gore is God?

Guapo Méndez

10-18-2005, 11:06 AM

Kudos!

Excellent stuff.

If I may split hairs...that "me" needs to have a unibrow.

looks at it closer: nevermind...I think I see one.

JeffreyWKramer

10-18-2005, 11:07 AM

Does this count as a webcomic? If so, I now have one to vote for in the Corries.

Dreadstar

10-18-2005, 11:08 AM

Kudos!

Excellent stuff.

If I may split hairs...that "me" needs to have a unibrow.

It looks like it does to me.

EDIT:

So you admit that it has one. Good. We agree.

Guapo Méndez

10-18-2005, 11:10 AM

It looks like it does to me.

EDIT:

So you admit that it has one. Good. We agree.

Man, this could be CBR's own Order of the Stick. I'd read it every day.

Conn Seanery

10-18-2005, 11:21 AM

I know what you mean, but it sounds like it will still exist. It just won't have the official sanction of the church or the school.
Good.

I don't think it's necessarily a mistake to expect one, but I think it's hubris for anyone to think they're owed one - especially if there have been problems in the past. One of the things everyone seems to have glossed over is that these kids were drinking before they got to the prom which means more than likely underage kids were showing up at a school-sponsored event drunk. To me, it's outrageous to expect a prom under those circumstances. And since it was the parents who allowed and encouraged the behavior then I think it's the parents who should be sponsoring the prom in the first place.
I did see the reference to the "pre-cocktail party", I remember going to one of those too. It was pretty boring and sterile, kids sharing a glass of champagne while all dressed up (a single glass) under parental supervision, I chalked this up to tradition too. If that's not what they're referring to (if it's a full-on binge drinking pre-party so that you show up to Prom hammered) I can understand what you're saying. I can't really argue against the liquor limo, other than to say that we saved the majority of our drinking for after Prom, and that seemed to be pretty much the case across the board from what I noticed. I guess it'd be naive of me to assume that was the standard everywhere, tho'.

I agree with your point about the parents tho', if they're allowing the drinking they might as well take responsibility for it, if the school won't.

I went to Catholic School. It was 20 years ago and I really can't remember any specifics but as I recall, it wasn't outside of the realm of possibility to hear about other schools in the archdiocese who had their proms canceled. And if I remember correctly, it was always over things like drug use and underage drinking, so none of this seems strange to me at all and I'm assuming it wasn't outside the realm of possibility for these kids either.
I went to public school, and ours was pretty well controlled, it seems (the Prom, not afterwards). I wonder what the comparison would be, public VS. private, regarding how many Proms got out of control or had excessive drunkedness.

Slam_Bradley

10-18-2005, 11:45 AM

BEST

THREAD

EVER.

Can I get a Hell Yeah!!!, Brothers and Sisters?

Dreadstar

10-18-2005, 11:47 AM

HELL YEAH, and AMEN!

I'll be so sad when it drops off the front page.

Corrina

10-18-2005, 12:00 PM

All hail and praise the Mighty Yo-Go!

Wherever he may have gone in his afterlife, he left much laughter in this one!

Praise Be!

west3man

10-18-2005, 12:01 PM

I tried to ignore this and to take it to p.m., but this deserves to be taken apart right here where you said it.Gotta love this. You take a post, strip it post-by-post of all elements until you can get to the point where you can dismiss it out of hand.Assuming you mean "point-by-point," that's the opposite of dismissing something "out of hand."

All I did was consider all of your points. If I continue to disagree with them, it'd be a good idea to say why. It's as simple as that.

My points were that:

a) At some point, you came to the thread with guns blazing. Translation: at some point your posts started to become more and more agitated. Considering the fact that I've repeated made it clear that I got pissed, at some point, this statement holds no particular significance... at least without some context.

Where could I pinpoint that? After K'Nort's post about you being thought of as a liar, which you brought up in the first place. And this is not the proper context. If I'd gotten upset at K'Nort for mentioning something I'd already mentioned, then maybe this be relevant, but I didn't and it's not.

Claiming I accused people of something when I did not is not cool. I responded to that with words and with emotion, but not with insults... unlike the many people you and others have yet to criticize.

b) Your "irony about teenagers" post. It was not a quote, because Howy never mentioned teenagers. Again, you switch contexts.

I was never trying to imply that the entire post was a quote... even when I mistakenly thought you were talking about a post in which I'd used quotation marks. In fact, I said something about having used the same four words that he used. Since my post was more than four words, I must not have been talking about the entire post.

What I *was* talking about when I mentioned quotes, was whether I had been truly using the f-word, or if I was just quoting (or referring to) someone else's use of it. This was in response to someone's mischaracterization of my tone and posts in this thread.

Within that context, my statement has a different meaning that what you describe above.

He said "people". You made the teenagers and irony part, which divested the phrase of any possible significance of a quote or a referal. It was a whole new animal. You claimed it was a quote and even defended it as such, until rereading your words made you, reluctantly, admit that yeah, you had not used the quote signs, but the idea was the same. Oh, and your whole argument about me splitting hairs...yeah, as if you didn't have your pack of razors handy. No. You were missing the context of the statement, again.

I didn't mistakenly call that a quote until I was defending myself against Oz's claims. Within THAT context, I was saying something else entirely.

c) You telling me that I didn't tell "shit" to others, but I took it with you.
I answered back to anyone and everyone who took it with me, be it Michael Pullman with his "were you?" comment or Gaz with his Dress Code stuff. I'm not sure if I responded directly to Alex Dragon or Converge...(I think I did on the later, with me being a spanish speaker and all). You made it sound as if you were my only target, which you weren't.
You asked me if I missed that and I said I did.

TCJohnson

10-18-2005, 12:02 PM

All hail and praise the Mighty Yo-Go!

Wherever he may have gone in his afterlife, he left much laughter in this one!

Praise Be!

: tries to think of something clever to say to make her head hurt again...gives up and just hits her in the back of the head with a live lobster :

Dreadstar

10-18-2005, 12:05 PM

I suggest clomipramine.

west3man

10-18-2005, 12:09 PM

And for all that talk about no one calling me a liar, directly or indirectly, that's precisely what Oz's statements were doing. Oz claimed that I was "deliberately" missing the point, despite the fact that I'd clearly implied that I saw his statements differently than he did. I still don't think he was right, but I could've dealt with leaving it at a disagreement... or treating it as such. By saying I don't believe what I say I do, you're calling me a liar.

That's what some of you claim no one was doing or thinking, so I must've been so off by suggesting such a thing.

Corrina

10-18-2005, 12:11 PM

: tries to think of something clever to say to make her head hurt again...gives up and just hits her in the back of the head with a live lobster :

Idiot! How can I eat the lobster now?

Fetch my another. And bring it to prom, please.

JeffreyWKramer

10-18-2005, 12:13 PM

Idiot! How can I eat the lobster now?

Fetch my another. And bring it to prom, please.

Are lobsters a new trend in corsages?

TCJohnson

10-18-2005, 12:16 PM

Are lobsters a new trend in corsages?

The poor kids get dead ones, the rich kids get live ones. It's classism I say!

Dreadstar

10-18-2005, 12:17 PM

JeffreyWKramer

10-18-2005, 12:18 PM

The poor kids get dead ones, the rich kids get live ones. It's classism I say!

And the real poor kids get a crawdad?

JeffreyWKramer

10-18-2005, 12:19 PM

Wait, didn't your (paraphrase) "if you don't believe me" disclaimer come over hundred posts PRIOR to Ozbat's post that included the word "deliberately?"

Retcon, perhaps? Is this an example of Hypertime, or some anomany related to INFINITE CRISIS?

Slam_Bradley

10-18-2005, 12:19 PM

Wait, didn't your (paraphrase) "if you don't believe me" disclaimer come over hundred posts PRIOR to Ozbat's post that included the word "deliberately?"

You really need to dissect about 40 posts in minute detail if you want to make that point. Haven't you been paying attention?

Guapo Méndez

10-18-2005, 12:21 PM

All I did was consider all of your points. If I continue to disagree with them, it'd be a good idea to say why. It's as simple as that.

Original disagreement still stands: I understand why the principal pulled the plug on the prom considering too much bad stuff for the school name and reputation.

Considering the fact that I've repeated made it clear that I got pissed, at some point, this statement holds no particular significance... at least without some context. .

***takes two aspirins***

So you agree you got pissed off?

And this is not the proper context. If I'd gotten upset at K'Nort for mentioning something I'd already mentioned, then maybe this be relevant, but I didn't and it's not. .

You did not got upset after the whole "being called a liar" stuff? Your posts were not defensive after that?

Claiming I accused people of something when I did not is not cool. I responded to that with words and with emotion, but not with insults... unlike the many people you and others have yet to criticize. .

In any case, you're the one who told "shit" to me.
And the degree of emotion is what rubbed off the wrong way.

Again, you switch contexts.

I was never trying to imply that the entire post was a quote... even when I mistakenly thought you were talking about a post in which I'd used quotation marks. In fact, I said something about having used the same four words that he used. Since my post was more than four words, I must not have been talking about the entire post.

What I *was* talking about when I mentioned quotes, was whether I had been truly using the f-word, or if I was just quoting (or referring to) someone else's use of it. This was in response to someone's mischaracterization of my tone and posts in this thread.

Within that context, my statement has a different meaning that what you describe above..

You did not even check the post I made reference to, you were too busy taking ofense and even casting doubt on my ability to even understand the concept of quoting.
In that post, which was the whole basis of my response, you. did. not. use. any. quotes. But you acted as if you did.

No. You were missing the context of the statement, again.

I didn't mistakenly call that a quote until I was defending myself against Oz's claims. Within THAT context, I was saying something else entirely..

You did not check the post I was making reference to, and defended it like you were right. For several posts and pages.

You asked me if I missed that and I said I did.

Good. We agree on something.

Boldido

10-18-2005, 12:24 PM

Eh, your English is better than that of at least half of the native English speaking people on the boards, and it's a fuck of a lot better than my Spanish.

Yeah, but how's your french or greek?

Dreadstar

10-18-2005, 12:25 PM

Retcon, perhaps? Is this an example of Hypertime, or some anomany related to INFINITE CRISIS?

WHOO-HOO!!!!

Or maybe it's like physicist Julian Barbour theorizes and the universe and time is just a big collection of "nows!"

Dreadstar

10-18-2005, 12:25 PM

You really need to dissect about 40 posts in minute detail if you want to make that point. Haven't you been paying attention?

I'm not any good at this game.

Anyone want to play Yahtzee?

YoGo

10-18-2005, 12:40 PM

I'm not any good at this game.

Anyone want to play Yahtzee?

Anything!

Anything to avert our eyes from this homoerotic mental twister these two are playing.

My eyes are bleeding. Bleeding i tell you.

JeffreyWKramer

10-18-2005, 12:44 PM

I'm not any good at this game.

Anyone want to play Yahtzee?

We're geeks. Should we play it with d8s, d12s or d20s?

Dreadstar

10-18-2005, 12:45 PM

We're geeks. Should we play it with d8s, d12s or d20s.

See, now that would be cool!

TCJohnson

10-18-2005, 12:49 PM

We're geeks. Should we play it with d8s, d12s or d20s.

: rolls double 20s and kills Jeffrey with a +5 lobster claw of logic slaying :

west3man

10-18-2005, 12:49 PM

Original disagreement still stands: I understand why the principal pulled the plug on the prom considering too much bad stuff for the school name and reputation. I never cared that you disagreed with me, Guapo.

***takes two aspirins***

So you agree you got pissed off? About being repeatedly accused of things I didn't do and being insulted, while being told I had no reason to be concerned? Yes. I never denied this.

Getting upset isn't the problem. It's how you handle it. In my case, I stayed cool for quite a while... all that time, I avoided responding in-kind to those who were rude to me.

Without acknowledging this, no one can show that they are fairly looking at this situation.

You did not got upset after the whole "being called a liar" stuff? Your posts were not defensive after that? Rhetoric (not yours) is a problem because it infects EVERYthing.

Being "defensive" isn't a bad thing if you're... defending yourself against something. Just like discrimination isn't a bad thing, in and of itself. We just use the shortened version for convenience. Unfortunately, that has the side-effect of making people think and act as if all discrimination is bad... or like being "defensive" is never appropriate. Since you seem to agree that I was verbally attacked, then you should understand why I was defensive.

What I'd also like to see is acknowledgement of just how OFfensive others have been toward me.

In any case, you're the one who told "shit" to me.
And the degree of emotion is what rubbed off the wrong way. So, any profanity is inappropriate?

Then we're right back at howy's statement (forget the teenager stuff) because that's a big part of what made it unwelcome, in my eyes.

I don't see how you can see one without seeing the other right next to it.

You did not even check the post I made reference to, I defended myself against your accusations, which, for many posts, did not state that I didn't include quotes. I *knew* there were posts in which I'd referenced his words, but did not use quotation marks. Since you didn't say I didn't use quotation marks, even after I clearly stated that was just as good as the quote function, I thought we were on the same page.

Once you said I didn't use quotation marks, either, I looked. And then, I actually admitted that I was wrong. How many of the people who have accused me have come back and done the same, Guapo?

The best example I can think of is Oz, who at least admitted that my analysis was correct... even if he didn't take the next logical step, in my estimation.

you were too busy taking ofense and even casting doubt on my ability to even understand the concept of quoting. No, I was too busy responding to your points. Once you stated (or once I saw you state) that I didn't use the quote function OR quotation marks, I, again, considered the possibility that I might be wrong... and I checked.

Until you say something that contradicts what I believe to be true, there was no need for me to check. Hell, I think that post with the post numbers and s-word/f-word break-downs demonstrates that I'm willing to consider that I might be wrong.

Oz suggested that I take a look and I did. Once the foundation of his argument disintegrated, then it was time to reconsider the argument. I think that argument, and others, were based on the tone established by my 'usage' of the very words I was objecting to. That doesn't make a lot of sense.

In that post, which was the whole basis of my response, you. did. not. use. any. quotes. But you acted as if you did. Be. cause. I. thought. I. did.

From what I saw, at the time, you didn't just say I didn't quote howy. You said I didn't use the quote function. In fact, here are your words:

"Uh...unless I'm reading wrong, post 360 is not a quote. Not by a long shot, not by a country mile. That's 100% west3man's words because you're not using the "quote" function. Ditto post 389." Like I said, you didn't just say I didn't quote him. You said I didn't quote him because I didn't use the quote function. Clearly, that's not a good enough reason to disqualify a quote, as it's not the only way to quote someone. I followed up by asking how they quoted people before there was a quote function and, among other things, you said, "West...the fact of the matter is that the quote button is available on CBR. I've seen you use it. You know how to use it. If you did not use it for a post you were not quoting."

This cemented the idea that you were basing all of this on whether I used the quote function or not.

Once you said I didn't use quotation marks, I checked. Simple as that. Your reasoning was flawed and you were busy laughing and tossing sarcastic comments around. See, that's the problem with that crap. Everything ends up being about that instead of about the substance of the argument. I do what I can to focus on that substance. If you meant more than you said, that's not my fault. Once you said what you meant, though, the situation was cleared up.

Once I said what I meant, I got more people in my face giving me a hard time. There's a difference.

You said those were "100% west3man's words" when they were not. I'd clearly referenced howy's statement, there. So, my intentions were clear.

In the end, you showed that I referred to his words, instead of directly quoting them, but that didn't make a significant change in any of the main points of this discussion. "Teenagers" was off the table, if I'm not mistaken. It certainly wasn't the point in the discussion you stepped into between me and Oz. Again, context.

Tadhg

10-18-2005, 12:50 PM

Anything!

Anything to avert our eyes from this homoerotic mental twister these two are playing.

My eyes are bleeding. Bleeding i tell you.

Did I miss the homoerotic subtext again? DAMNIT!

K'Nort

10-18-2005, 12:50 PM

People get called asses and have "snark" hurled their way time and again and you describe this conversation as "civil."

Snark is uncivil?

I say something about people who might think I'm lying, which would not be YOU or anyone else here if that's not what you think (much like howy's "pinnacle" comment), and we get a bunch of pages of discussion about it.

Joe Rice and I already tried to explain this one to you.

Talk about annoying. And one more thing, K'Nort, the last time you and I got into any kind of conflict, I asked if you could refrain from responding to me with insults or "gut punches" and you never returned to the thread.

Well that's because my blood pressure gets too high and I finally have the sense to use ignore in order to stop ruining the thread for everyone else. Back to that, sadly.

[QUOTE[I already said how someone called me a liar, recently, and no one else said a word. I didn't even say anything. When I DO say something, then this kind of thing happens. Really, it's a no-win situation, so I do what makes sense to me. That's all I can do and what I will continue to do.[/QUOTE]

One, that's really too vague for anyone here to respond to. Are you saying some of the people on this thread were in that same thread and thus it's relevant? Because otherwise, it's totally out of left field. And is it occuring to you that since we're pointing out that you're seeing insults here where no one else is, it's possible if not probable that the exact same thing happened there. Ie, no one else saw anything that could be construed as you being called a liar and thus there was nothing to defend.

And rather than doing more quoting on a second thread, it was damned valid for me to bring up the running away because you had JUST accused Howy of doing exactly that. Despite him really being the last person on the planet for you to accuse of being spineless, but anyway.

JeffreyWKramer

10-18-2005, 12:52 PM

See, now that would be cool!

Makes getting a full straight, four of a kind or Yahtzee a bitch, though.

*briefly considers probabilities*

*stops before he starts lapsing into stories of old DnD games*

Slam_Bradley

10-18-2005, 12:53 PM

I'm not any good at this game.

Anyone want to play Yahtzee?

Too heck with that. K'Nort is back. We should play kissing tag.

Y'know...just to go along with the school theme.

JeffreyWKramer

10-18-2005, 12:54 PM

Too heck with that. K'Nort is back. We should play kissing tag.

There's always Strip Trivial Pursiut... to continue with the nerd motif.

west3man

10-18-2005, 12:55 PM

Wait, didn't your (paraphrase) "if you don't believe me" disclaimer come over hundred posts PRIOR to Ozbat's post that included the word "deliberately?"
Irrelevant to my point which was that many acted as if no one is likely to think or act as if I were lying. They weren't just talking about that once incident.

Adam Crocker

10-18-2005, 12:57 PM

We're geeks. Should we play it with d8s, d12s or d20s?

D20s. Anything else is abdicating to the man!

Dreadstar

10-18-2005, 12:59 PM

Irrelevant to my point which was that many acted as if no one is likely to think or act as if I were lying. They weren't just talking about that once incident.

Pre-emptive complaining?

Actually, I'm thinking it *IS* relevant in that you're saying "SEE! Someone DID accuse me of lying!" well after the point where people first told you that no one in the thread had in fact called you a liar.

CONTEXT!

K'Nort

10-18-2005, 01:04 PM

Besides, drinking doesn't tend to go well with sex. Well, not good sex, anyway.

So there!

If I hadn't been drinking, I wouldn't have ever gotten in that hot tub.

So there yourself!

And I have to get through a couple more pages yet to have on-topic contributions again.

Dreadstar

10-18-2005, 01:06 PM

And I have to get through a couple more pages yet to have on-topic contributions again.

Cool.

When you find out what that is...

...could you tell me?

west3man

10-18-2005, 01:07 PM

Snark is uncivil? I've only encountered the word at CBR and my understanding is that "snark" is rudeness and/or undue sarcasm.

"Civil" is the opposite of rude, so yes, I think "snark" is uncivil.

Joe Rice and I already tried to explain this one to you. And I've responded to everything you've said to me, so I've got reasons for disagreeing.

Well that's because my blood pressure gets too high and I finally have the sense to use ignore in order to stop ruining the thread for everyone else. More than once you've responded with insults and then disappeared. That's about nothing but your choice to disappear *after* you've been rude.

Back to that, sadly.That's unfortunate, but you're not solving anything by being rude to me, disappearing and then coming back another day to be rude again, wondering why I might not be receptive to your words.

The thing is, I *still* consider your points, despite how much I dislike some of the things you've unapologetically hurled my way.

I hadn't accused anyone of lying, but you accused me of doing so. That's irony.

One, that's really too vague for anyone here to respond to. Are you saying some of the people on this thread were in that same thread and thus it's relevant? Because otherwise, it's totally out of left field. And is it occuring to you that since we're pointing out that you're seeing insults here where no one else is, it's possible if not probable that the exact same thing happened there. Ie, no one else saw anything that could be construed as you being called a liar and thus there was nothing to defend. Has it occurred to you that 1) there are times in which one is right and many are wrong AND that 2) there are people here who don't think I'm as wrong as you do?

All of this has been addressed in my previous posts, though.

And rather than doing more quoting on a second thread, it was damned valid for me to bring up the running away because you had JUST accused Howy of doing exactly that. Howy DID do that.

Howy claimed work kept him from responding to me in a meaningful way, but he DID respond to me... he just chose not to clarify. He said his point was "patently obvious" and didn't require clarification. So, he was basically faking it.

All of this is also in the thread.

Despite him really being the last person on the planet for you to accuse of being spineless, but anyway. He's shown that he wasn't interested in clarifying anything to me, although he responded to me. Work had nothing to do with it. Call it "spineless" if you want.

I talk about the behavior and the words. I'm not the one reading people's minds and telling them what their motives were... not until they admit it.

Dreadstar

10-18-2005, 01:07 PM

D20s. Anything else is abdicating to the man!

Well, we'll have to really up the points, then. Getting a large straight could be a major bitch.

west3man

10-18-2005, 01:08 PM

Pre-emptive complaining?

Actually, I'm thinking it *IS* relevant in that you're saying "SEE! Someone DID accuse me of lying!" well after the point where people first told you that no one in the thread had in fact called you a liar.

CONTEXT!
I'd engage you on this if you weren't so likely to get pissed off and then start insulting me. Then I'd be blamed for defending myself against that, too.

You already called someone an ass in this thread, so I'm not pulling this out of thin air. See, it's fully relevant to expect certain behavior from people, when they've exhibited that behavior before. This isn't new.

Converge

10-18-2005, 01:09 PM

I'd engage you on this if you weren't so likely to get pissed off and then start insulting me.

I think you should just take evasive action and quit while you're ahead/behind.

west3man

10-18-2005, 01:11 PM

I think you should just take evasive action and quit while you're ahead/behind.
I think you're probably right.

Dreadstar

10-18-2005, 01:11 PM

See, it's fully relevant to expect certain behavior from people, when they've exhibited that behavior before.

I rest my case, your honor.

K'Nort

10-18-2005, 01:13 PM

There's always Strip Trivial Pursiut... to continue with the nerd motif.

Except you'd be totally disappointed because I have NEVER lost a game. I'd stay Eskimo the whole time.

Well there was one exception but I was taken advantage of. College. There were eight of us, four teams. Drinking Jack Daniels and Purple Passions (the pre-bottled kind, remember those?) My partner was on a long distance phone call pretty much the whole game and the other three teams decided to mess with me. They would say my answers were wrong when they were right. They'd give themselves pie pieces when I wasn't looking. I couldn't figure out why I was doing so badly. Same night we watched all three (there were only three once upon a time, kids, and they were all good!) Star Wars movies.

Hell, you want to get nostalgic for something, get nostalgic for college.

west3man

10-18-2005, 01:14 PM

I rest my case, your honor.
You rest your case without admitting that's exactly what you do, though... or that I don't do it to you, even in retaliation.

Your case isn't as strong as you make it out to be.

JeffreyWKramer

10-18-2005, 01:15 PM

Except you'd be totally disappointed because I have NEVER lost a game.

I've got a pretty good track record myself. Sounds like a challenge!!

Corrina

10-18-2005, 01:16 PM

There's always Strip Trivial Pursiut... to continue with the nerd motif.

Know what would be cool?

If we did that at prom.

At a non-religious, decadent school, that is.

JeffreyWKramer

10-18-2005, 01:16 PM

Know what would be cool?

If we did that at prom.

At a non-religious, decadent school, that is.

Screw prom. I'd rather have the orgy.

Corrina

10-18-2005, 01:17 PM

Screw prom. I'd rather have the orgy.

I think 'screw prom' is what I was suggesting.

Dreadstar

10-18-2005, 01:20 PM

Your case isn't as strong as you make it out to be.

Actually when you apply this:

"See, it's fully relevant to expect certain behavior from people, when they've exhibited that behavior before."

...to west3man, I think it's a pretty damn concrete case.

JeffreyWKramer

10-18-2005, 01:21 PM

I think 'screw prom' is what I was suggesting.

Works for me!!

Dreadstar

10-18-2005, 01:22 PM

3...

2...

1...

Guapo Méndez

10-18-2005, 01:26 PM

I never cared that you disagreed with me, Guapo..

....and starting the post with the right foot.

About being repeatedly accused of things I didn't do and being insulted, while being told I had no reason to be concerned? Yes. I never denied this..

But you started the whole issue by saying the parenthetical stuff. Which brought us to the "PEOPLE" remark.

Being "defensive" isn't a bad thing if you're... defending yourself against something. Just like discrimination isn't a bad thing, in and of itself. We just use the shortened version for convenience. Unfortunately, that has the side-effect of making people think and act as if all discrimination is bad... or like being "defensive" is never appropriate. Since you seem to agree that I was verbally attacked, then you should understand why I was defensive..

I agreed that you were verbally attacked? Where?
My puzzlement began after the parenthetical stuff and it has grown by leaps and bounds as pages piled and piled up.

What I'd also like to see is acknowledgement of just how OFfensive others have been toward me..

In a thread where no one had said anything about people lying, you brought it up, regarding another thread (which to this moment I am blissfully unaware of).

So, any profanity is inappropriate?.

When you say "shit" to me and I haven't done the same to you, yeah.

Then we're right back at howy's statement (forget the teenager stuff) because that's a big part of what made it unwelcome, in my eyes..

So you took issue with Howy's stuff and we saw how that went.

I defended myself against your accusations, which, for many posts, did not state that I didn't include quotes. I *knew* there were posts in which I'd referenced his words, but did not use quotation marks. Since you didn't say I didn't use quotation marks, even after I clearly stated that was just as good as the quote function, I thought we were on the same page.
.

Huh? I always said you were not quoting howyadoin. It was after you claimed that yeah, you were, I said the quote sign stuff.
It was my understanding that no quote marks meant no quote.

Once you said I didn't use quotation marks, either, I looked. And then, I actually admitted that I was wrong. How many of the people who have accused me have come back and done the same, Guapo?.

I don't know who is accusing you. I am not.

No, I was too busy responding to your points. Once you stated (or once I saw you state) that I didn't use the quote function OR quotation marks, I, again, considered the possibility that I might be wrong... and I checked..

And survey said...?

Until you say something that contradicts what I believe to be true, there was no need for me to check. Hell, I think that post with the post numbers and s-word/f-word break-downs demonstrates that I'm willing to consider that I might be wrong..

It wasn't that hard. I even listed the post number.

Oz suggested that I take a look and I did. Once the foundation of his argument disintegrated, then it was time to reconsider the argument. I think that argument, and others, were based on the tone established by my 'usage' of the very words I was objecting to. That doesn't make a lot of sense. .

I'm not fighting Ozbat's battle. I fight my own.

Be. cause. I. thought. I. did.

But you did not, and I was calling you up on it.

From what I saw, at the time, you didn't just say I didn't quote howy. You said I didn't use the quote function. In fact, here are your words:

This cemented the idea that you were basing all of this on whether I used the quote function or not..

So this clever spin makes a quote out of a non-quote.

Once you said I didn't use quotation marks, I checked. Simple as that. .

And it still was not a quote.

Your reasoning was flawed .

No quote marks, no quote function, different words than the original=quote?

I'll try to get a refund from all my english teachers.

See, that's the problem with that crap. Everything ends up being about that instead of about the substance of the argument. I do what I can to focus on that substance. If you meant more than you said, that's not my fault. Once you said what you meant, though, the situation was cleared up..

We have not been discussing the substance a long time ago. Fact of the matter if this was a football game, the spectators would have been long gone and we'd be having this tete-a-tete using flashlights and crude stick figures.

You said those were "100% west3man's words" when they were not. I'd clearly referenced howy's statement, there. So, my intentions were clear..

The only words that even ressemble what Howy said are "grow" "fuck" and "up". You even misconstrued who he meant.

west3man

10-18-2005, 01:26 PM

Actually when you apply this:

"See, it's fully relevant to expect certain behavior from people, when they've exhibited that behavior before."

...to west3man, I think it's a pretty damn concrete case.
The key is not to apply it only to one person.

west3man

10-18-2005, 01:29 PM

Guapo, you're hitting-and-running, instead of actually addressing the depth of those points. That's not doing either of us any good.

Btw, starting off with "I never card that you disagreed" was not a dig of any sort. It was intended to express that I don't have a problem with you disagreeing with me, so that wasn't the problem.

If nothing else, hopefully that's clear.

Dreadstar

10-18-2005, 01:29 PM

The key is not to apply it only to one person.

...or to everyone equally.

west3man

10-18-2005, 01:34 PM

...or to everyone equally.
That's the thing, right there.

You SHOULD apply it to everyone equally. That's what being fair is all about.

K'Nort

10-18-2005, 01:35 PM

Know what would be cool?

If we did that at prom.

At a non-religious, decadent school, that is.

It's gotten popular around here to have prom parties. And they really are fun. Some friends did one. For us, prom was the 80s. So we got era-appropriate outfits from Goodwill (yes, the guys all tried to look like Duckie) and played all the same music and spiked the punch. It was a hoot. How often do you slow dance like that in real life as a grown-up?

Dreadstar

10-18-2005, 01:37 PM

That's the thing, right there.

You SHOULD apply it to everyone equally. That's what being fair is all about.

So, why do you object to me applying it to you after you've applied it to me?

Slam_Bradley

10-18-2005, 01:38 PM

That's the thing, right there.

You SHOULD apply it to everyone equally. That's what being fair is all about.

Since when is life fair?

Ed Cunard

10-18-2005, 01:40 PM

Btw, starting off with "I never card that you disagreed" was not a dig of any sort. It was intended to express that I don't have a problem with you disagreeing with me, so that wasn't the problem.

If nothing else, hopefully that's clear.

If it's any consolation, West, that's how I read it.

Man, I clicked on this thinking it was going to be full of ribald tales of high school debauchery.

I'm disappointed. Back when I was a teenager, we had naked parties all the time.

K'Nort

10-18-2005, 01:42 PM

I'm disappointed. Back when I was a teenager, we had naked parties all the time.

Were you in drama? It was the theatre kids that had those in my high school.

Dreadstar

10-18-2005, 01:44 PM

Were you in drama? It was the theatre kids that had those in my high school.

I'm old, "naked" wasn't part of the female high schooler vocabulary in the bible belt back then.

Ed Cunard

10-18-2005, 01:44 PM

Were you in drama? It was the theatre kids that had those in my high school.

It's like you were there! It was the drama/art crowd.

You know, shocking no one.

Ed Cunard

10-18-2005, 01:45 PM

I'm old, "naked" wasn't part of the female high schooler vocabulary in the bible belt back then.

Yeah, well. I am saying "back when" as if it wasn't only... maths... eight years ago when I started my freshman year of college, so.

west3man

10-18-2005, 01:46 PM

So, why do you object to me applying it to you after you've applied it to me?
Where did I object to you applying it to me?

Heck, you haven't even explicitly stated what behavior you expect from me. In fact, YOU attempted to engage ME.

Also, the behavior I'm concerned that you might exhibit has already been shown, by you, on this thread. This is, rather moot, though, since I'm engaging you about engaging you.

With that in-mind, I may as well respond to your question...

Pre-emptive complaining?

Actually, I'm thinking it *IS* relevant in that you're saying "SEE! Someone DID accuse me of lying!" well after the point where people first told you that no one in the thread had in fact called you a liar.

CONTEXT!

I knew no one in the thread had called me a liar, in this thread, at that time. I never denied this. Your statement seems to be irrelevant, since it addresses something I have not denied.

In fact, you've already gotten the fact that my statement was pre-emptive. What you didn't get was the second part. I didn't "complain." I EXplained.

There's a difference.

Slam_Bradley

10-18-2005, 01:46 PM

I'm old, "naked" wasn't part of the female high schooler vocabulary in the bible belt back then.

In Idaho either. Barring the VERY rare game of strip poker, the only nekkidness was one-on-one.

west3man

10-18-2005, 01:47 PM

Since when is life fair?
I'm asking for life to be fair. I'm asking it of living, breathing human beings.

What they choose to do, is another matter, of course.

TCJohnson

10-18-2005, 01:48 PM

Screw prom. I'd rather have the orgy.

Can we keep this conversation going during the orgy?

Shades0077

10-18-2005, 01:54 PM

So, I just like, wanted to say that, like, my prom totally rocked, and like, it was soooooo much fun and stuff!

Guapo Méndez

10-18-2005, 01:55 PM

Can we keep this conversation going during the orgy?

You can either orgy hard or discuss hard. There is not enough blood in the body to keep the brain and the penis working at the same time.

west3man

10-18-2005, 01:57 PM

So, I just like, wanted to say that, like, my prom totally rocked, and like, it was soooooo much fun and stuff!
I mostly enjoyed mine.

I think they're a bigger deal to some people and/or in some places than in others. Well, that's obviously true, but I'm just saying that I think that's all this comes down to.

For me, prom was something I looked forward to since elementary school. I doubt that was true of most other boys, but I wouldn't be surprised if many of the girls felt similarly. For me, it was a very big deal. For all the parents I've seen on prom night, it's a very big deal.

Dreadstar

10-18-2005, 02:02 PM

Where did I object to you applying it to me?

So you don't object to having that applied to you? I stand corrected.

Heck, you haven't even explicitly stated what behavior you expect from me.

Trust me, it's obvious.

I knew no one in the thread had called me a liar, in this thread, at that time.

Well, as long as that's cleared up, I withdraw my line of inquiry.

MacQuarrie

10-18-2005, 02:04 PM

Nobody, despite protests, is indifferent to prom.

It's either a nice memory or something you'd rather forget.

How many people are taking neutral stances here?
Third option: It's completely foreign territory.

Even if I had wanted to go to the silly thing, even if there was a female of the species willing to go with me, it simply was not an option. I could just as easily arranged a space launch as tickets to the prom. Moreover, I knew from my first day of high school what the reality was. We were poor, and stuff like dances and tux rentals was just flat not gonna happen. Hell, I couldn't even buy class photos or the yearbook.

It's not a nice memory, it's not something I'd rather forget. It's one more in a long line of things I simply never thought about. If I had, it would be one more in a long line of things I was disappointed about. As it is, I feel about as disappointed at missing the prom as I do about not going to the Tour de France. In other words, not at all. It was and is entirely irrelevant to me.

Now, all the rest of high school, that's stuff I would rather forget.

Slam_Bradley

10-18-2005, 02:04 PM

Well, as long as that's cleared up, I withdraw my line of inquiry.

I'm willing to give you a little more lee-way in that area, Counselor.

Dreadstar

10-18-2005, 02:08 PM

I'm willing to give you a little more lee-way in that area, Counselor.
Nah, then I'd have to go into an explanation of the differences between present tense, past tense and the present tense in the past and the expectation of the past tense in the future.

And I really don't think the jury wants to hear that.

howyadoin

10-18-2005, 02:08 PM

If I could carry my high school life to its adult extreme, I would be writing for the New York Times, coordinating the Superbowl halftime show, acting as a top consultant for both the Democrats and Republicans, be a major actor in Hollywood... And "prom" would probably mean hanging out with George W, OJ Simpson, Freddie Prinze and Sarah Michelle Gellar, Osama bin Laden, William Shatner, John Kerry, Robin Williams, Steven Hawking and Cirque du Soleil at Area 51 and launching nukes at the moon for giggles. Maybe going out for a spin in a stealth bomber to egg the royal palace in London -- with dinosaur eggs. Granted, as Mac pointed out, any gathering like this is artificial and I doubt I'd be a direct participant in most of this stuff but I'd be there, at least, and I'd spend a few good weeks chuckling about the Beefeaters cleaning up the Pterodactyl embryo on their lawn before moving on to something new like planning a vacation to Neptune.Sure you're not thinking of elementary school?

Davideaux

10-18-2005, 02:09 PM

My high school didn't have prom. We had a senior banquet, which I attended. I would have been disappointed if it had been canceled. I loved high school. I made my best friend in high school.

I applaud this guy for not condoning bad behavior at his school. The parents/students should take the principal's decision not as a punitive action but as a prohibition against excess in the name of a good time.

Joe Rice

10-18-2005, 02:11 PM

That's the thing, right there.

You SHOULD apply it to everyone equally. That's what being fair is all about.

No, that isn't what being fair is about. That's what being equal is about. Being fair is about giving each person what they need. That's something you learn as an educator. Giving Tina extra attention during math is fair because Steve doesn't need it.

bfrank

10-18-2005, 02:11 PM

If I'd paid $6000+ for attendance, I'd have certain expectations. Among them would be a prom. Maybe their budget isn't structured in that way.

My high school was pretty freakin' expensive, and me and the folks had some pretty serious expectations....Prom, my friend was not one of them....

bfrank

10-18-2005, 02:13 PM

I wasn't allowed to go to my prom due to:

1. Lack of money
2. Lack of interest
3. Lack of parental acknowledgement of my existence
4. provoking of complete revulsion in all members of the opposite gender

Proms are stupid. The disgusting displays of ostentatious consumerism and waste that surround them nowadays are even more stupid.

spoken like person who didn't attend...

west3man

10-18-2005, 02:13 PM

Trust me, it's obvious.Are you physically unable to resist taking a jab? All it does is bring out the worst in people - including you.

All of this comes down to how people want to be addressed. I don't call you or anyone else around here anything other than their names (except for things like referring to noljoner as nojo).

I don't talk around people, although, if they are the subject, I'll talk ABOUT them - that's something else. Snark, to me, is rude.

There are a LOT of misunderstandings, in life, although they may not seem like misunderstandings, at the time. They're easier to overcome, after the fact, if avoid snark attacks™.

Between or during the misunderstandings, my greatest offense, is usually that I disagree with people. They're usually thinking that's my problem with them - and it's usually not, while calling me names or mischaracterizing me for having a different opinion.

These are the situations that compel me to provide so many disclaimers.

Joe Rice

10-18-2005, 02:14 PM

So, let's see if we can highlight the points, the real points of this thread that are often overlooked.

This religious school had the right to pull their support of prom away.
That does not mean there will be no prom.
The parents have a right to throw their kids the same prom they would have had anyway.
The church will then not be condoning vanity and debauchery, as churches probably should not be doing anyway.
When you walk into a conversation ready to take things personally and play the victim, eventually, it will be personal and you will be a "victim."

west3man

10-18-2005, 02:15 PM

No, that isn't what being fair is about. That's what being equal is about. Being fair is about giving each person what they need. That's something you learn as an educator. Giving Tina extra attention during math is fair because Steve doesn't need it.
Do you want to talk about this or did you just want to add this and leave it at that?

EDIT: After reading this, I'm sorry I even gave you the benefit-of-the-doubt...

So, let's see if we can highlight the points, the real points of this thread that are often overlooked.

When you walk into a conversation ready to take things personally and play the victim, eventually, it will be personal and you will be a "victim."

Pot.

Joe Rice

10-18-2005, 02:19 PM

Do you want to talk about this or did you just want to add this and leave it at that?

Sure, I can talk about it.

EDIT: After reading this, I'm sorry I even gave you the benefit-of-the-doubt...

Pot.

Conversation isn't a big game you're trying to win. I'm not your pal or anything, west, but I really am trying to explain to you why so many people react adversely to your conversational style. If you don't believe me, that's fine. But I'm trying to explain to you why you're so frustrating. I'm not trying to upset you or call you names. And maybe, just maybe, if you think I've demonstrated some of the traits I see in you, maybe I've recognized that and therefore might know a bit more about how to get over it.

west3man

10-18-2005, 02:19 PM

Just for you... When you walk into a conversation ready to take things personally and play the victim, eventually, it will be personal and you will be a "victim."
[/list]
You are the pot and I am the kettle.

While this sounds like something you'd know something about, Joe, this does not apply to me.

Dreadstar

10-18-2005, 02:21 PM

Are you physically unable to resist taking a jab?

It was no more of a jab than post #661, the origination of the line of digression was.

Dreadstar

10-18-2005, 02:22 PM

Conversation isn't a big game you're trying to win.

Good luck with that statement.

west3man

10-18-2005, 02:23 PM

Sure, I can talk about it.

Conversation isn't a big game you're trying to win. This shows how little you know about me. Stop telling me things I already know and do a little bit more listening.

I'm not your pal or anything, west, Nothing could be more clear.

but I really am trying to explain to you why so many people react adversely to your conversational style. And I've told you, repeatedly what I don't like about yours. You don't give a damn. You continue to do what you do so who are you to talk?

Make a change or save it.

If you don't believe me, that's fine. But I'm trying to explain to you why you're so frustrating. I'm not trying to upset you or call you names. And maybe, just maybe, if you think I've demonstrated some of the traits I see in you, maybe I've recognized that and therefore might know a bit more about how to get over it. Joe, you spent a good portion of the time you engaged me by talking to me in a manner I've told you I find objectionable. You didn't stop. You didn't care. You didn't apologize.

Now you're back with wisdom? Please. Save it.

If you want me to listen to you, then practice what you're preaching.

bfrank

10-18-2005, 02:23 PM

I see Converge's point about it not being "the same thing," though.
No, there's a huge difference..

I mean one could argue that ending footbal could have a negative effect on student athelets....I could see college scouts not venturing to some "make believe" game....

However, I really don't think, and perhaps I'm being biased here, because I certainly wouldn't, but I really don't think, that in 20 years, kids are going to lllok back and say "man, I know we threw our own Prom and all, but it would have really rocked if the school sponsered it"...in fact, I think I would have perfered to throw it myself....We would have had a decent DJ, at least....

howyadoin

10-18-2005, 02:24 PM

I just wanna say "fuck" one more time.

Dreadstar

10-18-2005, 02:27 PM

...We would have had a decent DJ, at least....

Wait... The school picked your entertainment? Did they pay for it or make you pay for it out of class funds?

Since we paid for ours, we chose who the band was.

Yeah, I admit that the school advisors had the power of veto, but they didn't use it.

Joe Rice

10-18-2005, 02:27 PM

All right then. I'm sorry for making light of the situation. It was meant to cause a smile, but it clearly did not. Not every joke works for every person. It was meant to be congenial joking, but I guess it came off as mean snark. That wasn't the intention and I apologize, west.

K'Nort

10-18-2005, 02:29 PM

Wait... The school picked your entertainment? Did they pay for it or make you pay for it out of class funds?

Since we paid for ours, we chose who the band was.

Yeah, I admit that the school advisors had the power of veto, but they didn't use it.

You had a band?

We had student volunteers do the dj'ing, just like every other dance. But actually, that was just fine. I'm sure they had better taste than a professional adult dj would, for the audience, and I can't imagine a band being better than recorded music. Not for what we were able to afford.

MacQuarrie

10-18-2005, 02:30 PM

There's always Strip Trivial Pursiut... to continue with the nerd motif.
Strip Scrabble.

With double points for using dirty words.

west3man

10-18-2005, 02:30 PM

It was no more of a jab than post #661, the origination of the line of digression was.There's more to that post, which you haven't addressed, but I'll touch on this one...

Post #661

"I'd engage you on this if you weren't so likely to get pissed off and then start insulting me. Then I'd be blamed for defending myself against that, too.

You already called someone an ass in this thread, so I'm not pulling this out of thin air. See, it's fully relevant to expect certain behavior from people, when they've exhibited that behavior before. This isn't new."

You insulted someone before I ever entered the thread and have made smart-assed comments since then. You then asked me something and put me in a position to wonder if I should trust you not to disrespect me... or if I should ignore you.

I decided, instead to tell you why I was hesitant to respond. That was based on nothing but what you actually did and things which you have not denied.

The things you're talking about are without substance until you lay them out.

Slam_Bradley

10-18-2005, 02:31 PM

That wasn't the intention and I apologize, west.

You're being snarky again.

Y'know...I just can't help trusting you when I see you in that tie with the pipe and all.

Joe Rice

10-18-2005, 02:33 PM

You're being snarky again.

Y'know...I just can't help trusting you when I see you in that tie with the pipe and all.

Professors and old southern gentlement do not snark!

bfrank

10-18-2005, 02:33 PM

Because you're acting like the principal is a jerk for taking away these kids precious prom, when he's simply not sponsoring it and they don't need to have one in the first place.

To what, exactly, do you object?

he was a jerk, and who are you to tell them what they do and don't need....

west3man

10-18-2005, 02:33 PM

No, there's a huge difference..

I mean one could argue that ending footbal could have a negative effect on student athelets....I could see college scouts not venturing to some "make believe" game.... I'm not sure about the full context of the point I was making or agreeing with, at that time.

However, I really don't think, and perhaps I'm being biased here, because I certainly wouldn't, but I really don't think, that in 20 years, kids are going to lllok back and say "man, I know we threw our own Prom and all, but it would have really rocked if the school sponsered it"...in fact, I think I would have perfered to throw it myself....We would have had a decent DJ, at least....
Like I said, not the worst thing in the world, but I don't agree with his decision.

MacQuarrie

10-18-2005, 02:34 PM

west3man

10-18-2005, 02:35 PM

bfrank

10-18-2005, 02:37 PM

Sure. But the way you worded it accused specifically people in this thread of specifically assuming you were lying. And that is very insulting. If you didn't realize that, fine. But now you know for next time.

And you really have sounded like you think these kids have a god-given right to a prom.
There was nothing wrong with the way you worded your statement, west, and there is nothing that you have stated (at this point) that has impiled that you think that these kids hav a god given right to the prom...

west3man

10-18-2005, 02:38 PM

Originally Posted by west3man
That's the thing, right there.

You SHOULD apply it to everyone equally. That's what being fair is all about.No, that isn't what being fair is about. That's what being equal is about. Being fair is about giving each person what they need. That's something you learn as an educator. Giving Tina extra attention during math is fair because Steve doesn't need it.

I wasn't suggesting that one should expect the same behavior of Steve as Tina. I was suggesting that one should expect Steve-like behavior from Steve and Tina-like behavior from Tina.

That's what makes it fair, in the sense that you mean (which is the right sense).

Joe Rice

10-18-2005, 02:38 PM

Thank you, sir.

Now, can we address the issue that, just like people have seen in me, people are seeing a real tendency in you to take things personally and to play victim, thus creating a self-fulfilling prophecy? This frustrates people to the point where they do, in fact, get snippy or insulting with you. I am not making jokes here, I'm not trying to be mean. I want you to think about this because I didn't see it in myself at first, either.

west3man

10-18-2005, 02:39 PM

There was nothing wrong with the way you worded your statement, west, and there is nothing that you have stated (at this point) that has impiled that you think that these kids hav a god given right to the prom...
Thank you, sir.

bfrank

10-18-2005, 02:39 PM

200? And who pays the other half? 10k was the down payment.

I don't know, but 200 seems like an important sum. I mean around here getting people to pony up 30 bucks for their prom tickets is like pulling teeth with spaghetti tongs.

Most likely the parents will pay the nut.

And taking into consideration that tuition per student is 6k, spending almost three times that on one night is rather much.

And if the parents are willing to pay, what is your concern, and who are you to tell them what is "rather much"?

Joe Rice

10-18-2005, 02:40 PM

he was a jerk, and who are you to tell them what they do and don't need....

As a human being I can say they don't need it; they need food, water, and shelter.

As an American I can say they don't need it; it is not a right.

As an educator I can say they don't need it; the purpose of school is education and the rest is just frosting.

No one "needs" a prom.

MacQuarrie

10-18-2005, 02:40 PM

he was a jerk, and who are you to tell them what they do and don't need....
It's his job to be a jerk.

Assuming we define "jerk" as "one who makes decisions that children don't like."

And anybody can tell anybody else what others do or do not need. Food, clothing, shelter and education are needs. Entertainment and social activities are wants. Nice to have, but not necessary for survival.

Dreadstar

10-18-2005, 02:41 PM

You had a band?

We had student volunteers do the dj'ing, just like every other dance. But actually, that was just fine. I'm sure they had better taste than a professional adult dj would, for the audience, and I can't imagine a band being better than recorded music. Not for what we were able to afford.

We busted our asses for 3 years to build up a nice nest-egg for our prom our Junior year. See our JUNIOR class paid for the prom every year, and the Senior class (who paid the year before) got to concentrate on building the money back up for the class trip. So we sold magazines, candy, refreshments at dances, and generally busted our humnp to make a good prom. Hired out the Elk Country Club, a live band, a VERY nice catered dinner (not a buffet), and hired out the YMCA for after prom overnight, and included free screenings of a lot of good movies for the overnight (like Bonnie and Clyde and the Wild Bunch and Casablanca). The Seniors absolutely loved us for this.

It was a hefty chunk of change. After that we were lucky to get to NYC for our 2-day class trip.

On the other hand, the Juniors behind us, when we were seniors, wanted to go to Walt Disney World as seniors so our senior prom was:

In the gym, with parent provided covered dish buffet, junior DJs and an afterprom at the worst bowling alley in the county. (ALL YOU CAN BOWL BEFORE 6AM! WHOOPEE!)

bastiches.

Joe Rice

10-18-2005, 02:42 PM

And if the parents are willing to pay, what is your concern, and who are you to tell them what is "rather much"?

It isn't Guapo telling them that. He's agreeing with the man who HAS that authority: their educational and religious leader. It is his job to tell them it is "rather much."

Dreadstar

10-18-2005, 02:42 PM

The things you're talking about are without substance until you lay them out.

...and quite often, even after you do.

Joe Rice

10-18-2005, 02:44 PM

It's his job to be a jerk.

Assuming we define "jerk" as "one who makes decisions that children don't like."

And anybody can tell anybody else what others do or do not need. Food, clothing, shelter and education are needs. Entertainment and social activities are wants. Nice to have, but not necessary for survival.

Jinx. Nobody say MacQuarrie's name!

Oh.

Crap.

west3man

10-18-2005, 02:44 PM

Now, can we address the issue that, just like people have seen in me, people are seeing a real tendency in you to take things personally and to play victim, thus creating a self-fulfilling prophecy? This frustrates people to the point where they do, in fact, get snippy or insulting with you. I am not making jokes here, I'm not trying to be mean. I want you to think about this because I didn't see it in myself at first, either.
I *am* listening to what you're saying here, but something that's been shown time and again, even in this thread, is that we have different ideas of what is civil and what isn't.

K'Nort seemed surprised that I found "snark" to be "uncivil." That's key, imo. Not just that example, btw, but the fact that we see different things as cool.

For example, some of us think there's nothing wrong with putting in a disclaimer for those who may think I'm wrong or lying or dyslexic or whatever. Many of you took a *a great deal* of offense at that.

*I* take offense at someone, not just disagreeing with me, but doing so with a bunch of sarcasm. This is not a dig. As I said before, K'Nort seemed to be surprised at this.

Clearly, we're just talking about different standards. I honestly don't think that being offended by "snark" is any more "playing the victim" than getting upset because I made a statement to people who might think I'm lying... something that does happen and has happened in this thread.

K'Nort

10-18-2005, 02:45 PM

he was a jerk, and who are you to tell them what they do and don't need....

Why do we have less right to an opinion on that issue than on anything else we may discuss on this board? Not least because we're not really telling them anything or otherwise impacting their situation.

bfrank

10-18-2005, 02:45 PM

Talk about annoying.

This is YOU showing ME how and why I shouldn't take things personally, right?.

I laughed....

bfrank

10-18-2005, 02:46 PM

Why do we have less right to an opinion on that issue than on anything else we may discuss on this board?
care to address something I actually said? If no, don't bother responding....

bfrank

10-18-2005, 02:47 PM

From earlier in the thread:
Does that sound mature to you?

Anyone? Anyone?

just as mature as the blanket parties, yes....

Joe Rice

10-18-2005, 02:48 PM

Clearly, we're just talking about different standards. I honestly don't think that being offended by "snark" is any more "playing the victim" than getting upset because I made a statement to people who might think I'm lying... something that does happen and has happened in this thread.

I wasn't upset, I was bewildered.

Let me put it this way: nothing in this thread was offensive to me. I find it impossible to take anything in this thread personally.

You HAVE gotten upset, and about things that bewildered other people. It is your right to be upset about whatever you want, but eventually, one probably should think, "Do I really need to be offended by this?"

Dreadstar

10-18-2005, 02:48 PM

care to address something I actually said? If no, don't bother responding....

west3man? Is this snark?

If so, can we expect your taking him to task over it anytime soon?

Joe Rice

10-18-2005, 02:50 PM

care to address something I actually said? If no, don't bother responding....

I'll keep this simple for you: don't be a dick. She did respond to what you said. You didn't like it. Oh, well.

K'Nort

10-18-2005, 02:50 PM

We busted our asses for 3 years to build up a nice nest-egg for our prom our Junior year. See our JUNIOR class paid for the prom every year, and the Senior class (who paid the year before) got to concentrate on building the money back up for the class trip. So we sold magazines, candy, refreshments at dances, and generally busted our humnp to make a good prom. Hired out the Elk Country Club, a live band, a VERY nice catered dinner (not a buffet), and hired out the YMCA for after prom overnight, and included free screenings of a lot of good movies for the overnight (like Bonnie and Clyde and the Wild Bunch and Casablanca). The Seniors absolutely loved us for this.

It was a hefty chunk of change. After that we were lucky to get to NYC for our 2-day class trip.

On the other hand, the Juniors behind us, when we were seniors, wanted to go to Walt Disney World as seniors so our senior prom was:

In the gym, with parent provided covered dish buffet, junior DJs and an afterprom at the worst bowling alley in the county. (ALL YOU CAN BOWL BEFORE 6AM! WHOOPEE!)

bastiches.

They do senior trips down here too. There was a big scandal a few years ago because a senior class from one of the wealthier schools (public but a wealthy part of town) went to somewhere in Mexico and partied with two guys who were classmates but not on the trip because they were on the lam for burglary. They'd been regularly breaking into houses around town. For kicks. Plenty of funds. Too many, really. Once they got fingered, they headed south. Parents were sending them money. Like that one date rapist who spent ten years in Europe.

Anyway, we didn't have a trip and every class raised their own money. Except we didn't raise money, per se. The tickets were $50 a couple. That covered all our costs. People were on their own for dinner beforehand. But that way everyone could eat what/where they wanted, just have a romantic twosome if desired, etc. After the dance (which was in the cafeteria, like all of them; it just had streamers this time), we got a midnight movie at the downtown theatre (The Dream Team, with Michael Keaton and Christopher Lloyd) and then yes, the bowling alley until like 8am. Orange juice and doughnuts showed up around 6am.