Principal: School 'willing to sponsor a prom, but not an orgy'

[Slam_Bradley]

There's a world of difference between a single ball team and an entire senior class.

You expect people to form some kind of mob to force everyone else to act a certain way? That's idiotic in and of itself.

What the hell is a blanket party? Are you suggesting that it would be a good thing for the senior class to just start threatening each other? Maybe they could all wear brown shirts while they're at it.


It's called an example. We use them to see if we can extrapolate to a different situation.

Do I expect a mob. No. But I wouldn't be surprised if some parents that are concerned about Junior being able to go to his prom didn't take the matter up with parents that are causing the problem and find a way to fix it to the satisfaction of the school. This is one of the benefits of peer pressure and punishing the group.

A blanket party is where a blanket is thrown over someone's head and you beat them for doing something stupid, like making so you have to run laps. It usually doesn't have to be used very often because the threat of the blanket party keeps people from being stupid.

[Gaz]

Well:

a) Did they change the dress code out of the blue? Were the changes put in the student body rulebook? Were the changes not told to the students?

b) At least my rulebook has the following "the rules must be obeyed by students at all times. Even if students are not aware of the rules, they will still be required to follow them".


To sum up: no, you can't use the "but I did not know that" defense. It is your job to know what you can and can't do at school.
Look, in all seriousness, I'm willing to admit, you're probably right, I was being stubborn, but I will not say that it was a good or right rule.
(Technically, it had been there all along, but never enforced, it was more umportant that you wore the ACTUAL uniform regularly. I just wanted to know what had changed, the jacket had been fine before, so why was it a problem now?)

[Converge]

A blanket party is where a blanket is thrown over someone's head and you beat them for doing something stupid, like making so you have to run laps. It usually doesn't have to be used very often because the threat of the blanket party keeps people from being stupid.

That's classy. You must be a real stand-up guy. Threatening people with physical violence is a great to solve problems.

[Gaz]

It's called an example. We use them to see if we can extrapolate to a different situation.

Do I expect a mob. No. But I wouldn't be surprised if some parents that are concerned about Junior being able to go to his prom didn't take the matter up with parents that are causing the problem and find a way to fix it to the satisfaction of the school. This is one of the benefits of peer pressure and punishing the group.

A blanket party is where a blanket is thrown over someone's head and you beat them for doing something stupid, like making so you have to run laps. It usually doesn't have to be used very often because the threat of the blanket party keeps people from being stupid.
Yippee, so threats of violence are viable ways of "keeping order", and this from a lawyer too...

[Dreadstar]

Because they shouldn't have to.

How do football games promote academia at high school? Isn't it just a frivolous game, nothing more than a display of macho one-upmanship? Maybe the principal should cancel all the football games and then the people who want to play football can start their own league.

Oh wait... that's stupid.
Stop being a condescending ass.

You *do* know it's perfectly within the rights of a school board to cancel sporting events and even teams and seasons, right?

Or do those kids have some right to the competition?

Answer:

No, they don't. Just like they don't have that right to a prom.

[Typo Lad]

Yippee, so threats of violence are viable ways of "keeping order", and this from a lawyer too...

Well, what do you call a Death Penalty?

The threat of voilence, no?

[Gaz]

Well, what do you call a Death Penalty?

The threat of voilence, no?
And you think I'm pro-death penalty? :eek:

[Converge]

Well, what do you call a Death Penalty?

The threat of voilence, no?

So let's say your daughter was talking in class one day and as punishment the teacher made all of the kids write their vocabulary words five times each.

Do you think it would be OK if, after class, your daughter's classmates threw a blanket over her head and beat her?

I would assume you would say no, but given your other responses in this topic, I'm not quite sure.

[Typo Lad]

So let's your daughter was talking in class one day and as punishment the teacher made all of the kids write their vocabulary words five times each.

Do you think it would be OK if, after class, your daughter's classmates threw a blanket over her head and beat her?

I would assume you would say no, but given your other responses in this topic, I'm not quite sure.

Well, first of all, I'd be very impressed by them being able to write that well, what withj being in kindergarten and all.

Secondly, I sent my child to this school because that sort of thing is frowned upon. If it happened I would expect her:

a) to tell.
b) to beat their asses witha tire-iron like I taught her.

[muimi]

GOOD FOR THE PRINCIPAL. If the kids still want a prom, they can get together and organize it themselves. Considering it's a religious private school, he's more than within his jurisdiction, I think.

[Converge]

Well, first of all, I'd be very impressed by them being able to write that well, what withj being in kindergarten and all.

Secondly, I sent my child to this school because that sort of thing is frowned upon. If it happened I would expect her:

a) to tell.
b) to beat their asses witha tire-iron like I taught her.

Well I'm just talking hypothetically.

Do you think it's a good idea for people to threaten other people with physical violence in order to "keep order."

Such as beating a teammate for making you run laps or, perhaps, lynching minorities in order to keep them in line?

[Slam_Bradley]

That's classy. You must be a real stand-up guy. Threatening people with physical violence is a great to solve problems.


Yippee, so threats of violence are viable ways of "keeping order", and this from a lawyer too...


You know, you guys really aren't very good at this. The point was, that Converge was of the opinion that punishing everyone is idiotic. The fact of the matter is, that punishing everyone is a VERY good way of getting the group to apply pressure to those diverging to do the right thing.

We then proceed with an example. This example being the blanket party, something that used to be used in sporting circles. Now I don't expect, in this situation, that a blanket party would be appropriate. In fact, with the prevailing attitudes today, it probably isn't appropriate in most situations.

Man. It's really hard to talk to the younger generation.

[Gaz]

You know, you guys really aren't very good at this. The point was, that Converge was of the opinion that punishing everyone is idiotic. The fact of the matter is, that punishing everyone is a VERY good way of getting the group to apply pressure to those diverging to do the right thing.

We then proceed with an example. This example being the blanket party, something that used to be used in sporting circles. Now I don't expect, in this situation, that a blanket party would be appropriate. In fact, with the prevailing attitudes today, it probably isn't appropriate in most situations.

Man. It's really hard to talk to the younger generation.
See, I know that's what you were going for, but you don't seem to disapprove of the blanket party concept, which scares the willies out of me.

[Boldido]

You know, you guys really aren't very good at this. The point was, that Converge was of the opinion that punishing everyone is idiotic. The fact of the matter is, that punishing everyone is a VERY good way of getting the group to apply pressure to those diverging to do the right thing.

We then proceed with an example. This example being the blanket party, something that used to be used in sporting circles. Now I don't expect, in this situation, that a blanket party would be appropriate. In fact, with the prevailing attitudes today, it probably isn't appropriate in most situations.

Man. It's really hard to talk to the younger generation.

Of course it is. Dumb phuquers can't tell the difference between black and gray, graduation and prom, athletics and academics,and hyperbolic humor and actual argument. Further, they seem to think that proms are a constituional right and that religion has no buisness enforcing morality.

Now why don't you go over to where they are and do what you normally do and plant some dope on them, make up a confession and beat them with a lead pipe through a phone book...or as you call it...Monday.

[Converge]

You know, you guys really aren't very good at this. The point was, that Converge was of the opinion that punishing everyone is idiotic. The fact of the matter is, that punishing everyone is a VERY good way of getting the group to apply pressure to those diverging to do the right thing.

We then proceed with an example. This example being the blanket party, something that used to be used in sporting circles. Now I don't expect, in this situation, that a blanket party would be appropriate. In fact, with the prevailing attitudes today, it probably isn't appropriate in most situations.

Man. It's really hard to talk to the younger generation.

Well it's just a terrible example and does nothing to help your argument.

It's really hard to talk to old people.

[Gaz]

Of course it is. Dumb phuquers can't tell the difference between black and gray, graduation and prom, athletics and academics,and hyperbolic humor and actual argument. Further, they seem to think that proms are a constituional right and that religion has no buisness enforcing morality.

Now why don't you go over to where they are and do what you normally do and plant some dope on them, make up a confession and beat them with a lead pipe through a phone book...or as you call it...Monday.
And you guys have be so compassionate, understanding and balanced in your handling of the younger viewpoint, truly an inspiration.

[Dreadstar]

...or as you call it...Monday.


Roger, my boss wants to know why I'm laughing.

What should I tell him and still keep alive hopes for that promotion I've been eyeing?

[Slam_Bradley]

See, I know that's what you were going for, but you don't seem to disapprove of the blanket party concept, which scares the willies out of me.


I'm a prosecutor. If the evidence could be gathered and I had the witnesses I'd prosecute the participants. It's a battery. That doesn't change the fact that punishing everyone is a great deterrent.

That doesn't change the fact that it was a fairly common practice when I was in school. And it worked. Or really the treat of it worked.

[Boldido]

Roger, my boss wants to know why I'm laughing.

What should I tell him and still keep alive hopes for that promotion I've been eyeing?

Tell him you just saw pics of him naked...no that won't work. Tell him you just saw pics of Blair naked.

[Slam_Bradley]

...or as you call it...Monday.


That would be a pretty light Monday. Usually I pick up my Brownshirts from the dry cleaner and try to work in a lynching or two.

[Gaz]

I'm a prosecutor. If the evidence could be gathered and I had the witnesses I'd prosecute the participants. It's a battery. That doesn't change the fact that punishing everyone is a great deterrent.

That doesn't change the fact that it was a fairly common practice when I was in school. And it worked. Or really the treat of it worked.
Maybe as the kid who got picked on for not being an obnoxious, violent jerk (not meaning you are one, btw) I have a different perspective, but my view is "I don't like pain, so I don't want to maliciously inflict it on others"

[Boldido]

That would be a pretty light Monday. Usually I pick up my Brownshirts from the dry cleaner and try to work in a lynching or two.

I'm sorry, I was too busy picking up dope from one of my clients before driving over to one of my prostitute clients so she could make a "payment" to give careful thought of what you Monday would actually entail.

[K'Nort]

And you guys have be so compassionate, understanding and balanced in your handling of the younger viewpoint, truly an inspiration.

We have, actually.

Believe it or not, prom isn't always about drug use, drinking, and sex.

It's the last time that most of the senior class will be able to celebrate together as a whole. Unless you're some kind of social outcast, it IS important.

Your school experience was pretty different than that of a lot of us then. Many proms are in the spring. There are another half a dozen dances after that. Plus prom is for anyone. At the end of the school year, we had a seniors-only event for the celebrating together thing. Which was completely separate from prom. And involved actually just celebrating and being ourselves instead of wearing stupid overpriced clothes. And then the graduation party of course. Oh and senior skip day.

And high school is FULL of social outcasts. Saying to hell with them is one of the most insenstive things on this thread so far.

Another point you seem to be missing is that the parties etc was being done by the majority of the students, not just a few.

Are you like the football team quarterback or something?

[Converge]

Your school experience was pretty different than that of a lot of us then. Many proms are in the spring. There are another half a dozen dances after that. Plus prom is for anyone. At the end of the school year, we had a seniors-only event for the celebrating together thing. Which was completely separate from prom. And involved actually just celebrating and being ourselves instead of wearing stupid overpriced clothes. And then the graduation party of course. Oh and senior skip day.

And high school is FULL of social outcasts. Saying to hell with them is one of the most insenstive things on this thread so far.

Another point you seem to be missing is that the parties etc was being done by the majority of the students, not just a few.

Are you like the football team quarterback or something?

No, I just don't see why some people have such a mad-on for prom.

[Corrina]

And you guys have be so compassionate, understanding and balanced in your handling of the younger viewpoint, truly an inspiration.

Well, we're older and have more insurance. :)

[Slam_Bradley]

I'm sorry, I was too busy picking up dope from one of my clients before driving over to one of my prostitute clients so she could make a "payment" to give careful thought of what you Monday would actually entail.


Did I mention that one of our local attornies was indicted for "solicitation" for that very thing?

[Dreadstar]

No, I just don't see why some people have such a mad-on for prom.


Show of hands:

Who here has a "mad-on" for prom?


Anyone? Anyone? Bueller?

[K'Nort]

Show of hands:

Who here has a "mad-on" for prom?

Does that mean for or against?

[Tadhg]

No, I just don't see why some people have such a mad-on for prom.

We don't have a mad-on for prom, we just don't have a problem with a school not having a prom when they feel said prom is contrary to the school's principles.

[Tadhg]

Does that mean for or against?

It means we all hate prom.

[Slam_Bradley]

Show of hands:

Who here has a "mad-on" for prom?


Anyone? Anyone? Bueller?


I'm a trembling mass of indifference about prom, per se. It just irritates me when these young whipper-snappers think they're owed a prom.

[Dreadstar]

Does that mean for or against?

It mean agin't.

[K'Nort]

It means we all hate prom.

Ah. I figured it might be a variation of hard-on or something.

I loved my prom. And I'd pay an unreasonable amount of money to let a kid of mine attend theirs.


We should do pics!

[Boldido]

And you guys have be so compassionate, understanding and balanced in your handling of the younger viewpoint, truly an inspiration.

You began this whole discussion by describing what can best be described as a tantrum with misplaced righteous indignation. You called a member of your school's administration a "fascist" because of a dress code violation.

In addition to practicing law, I work with young people and teach as often as I can. I treat young people with courtesy and demand the same from them. I also don't make the mistake of thinking that young people are the same as adults, they aren't. Only a young person would make the stupid fucking comparison of a dress code to fascism. I recognize that young people are often creatures of extremes. They are inhabiting bodies that are full of hormones, explosive emotions and are trying to figure out and establish their own independent identities.

I recognize that young people are like anyone else. There are smart ones and there are dumb ones. There are logical ones and there are emotional ones. Each one needs to be treated as an individual.

The only mistake your principal made was to argue with you for as long as you contend he did. You got busted and threw a temper tantrum, pure and simple. If I'm speaking with a cop or a judge or anyone with authority, one of the first things I do is acknowledge that person's authority. You don't do that by calling them fascists. You don't win arguments by demonizing your opponent. You don't win an argument by showing yourself to be unreasonable. Your arguments may have been, but if you used the word "fascist" then clearly you were not. You broke a rule and got busted for it.

[Dreadstar]

I'm a trembling mass of indifference about prom, per se.

Sally Sue wouldn't do the dirty in the cab of the F-150, huh?

[Tadhg]

Ah. I figured it might be a variation of hard-on or something.

I loved my prom. And I'd pay an unreasonable amount of money to let a kid of mine attend theirs.


We should do pics!


I wasn't allowed to go to my prom due to earlier acts of civil disobedience.

[Dreadstar]

I wasn't allowed to go to my prom due to earlier acts of civil disobedience.
Those fascists!

[Converge]

It means we all hate prom.

Notice I said some people, not all people. Mostly the people who have an active disdain for prom.

And I realize that a principal can cancel prom if he wants to.

But I just think it's a really stupid, and an abuse of power.

I know that if the principal at my school had concelled prom, the parents wuld have been waiting for him outside of the school, blankets in hand.

And if I was a parent at this school I would be extremely pissed off that I'm paying 6000 dollars a year in tuition and my kid isn't even allowed to go to prom just because the asshole principal has a problem with how some of the parents spend their money.

[Slam_Bradley]

Sally Sue wouldn't do the dirty in the cab of the F-150, huh?


F-150. Pshaw. I had a 1972 Dodge Power-wagon with 440 cubic inches of Mopar madness under the hood. That summbitch was geared so low I could climb a brick wall.


That said...I went to prom. It wasn't a huge event at the time. Not like the all-day deals they have now. One of about five big dances during the year. Though I think it was the only one that we wore a tux for.

[Tadhg]

Notice I said some people, not all people. Mostly the people who have an active disdain for prom.

And I realize that a principal can cancel prom if he wants to.

But I just think it's a really stupid, and an abuse of power.

I know that if the principal at my school had concelled prom, the parents wuld have been waiting for him outside of the school, blankets in hand.

And if I was a parent at this school I would be extremely pissed off that I'm paying 6000 dollars a year in tuition and my kid isn't even allowed to go to prom just because the asshole principal has a problem with how some of the parents spend their money.

And you just don't get it, and you never will.

[Converge]

And you just don't get it, and you never will.

I guess not.

[Slam_Bradley]

And you just don't get it, and you never will.

Oh, he might. After he's grown a bit.

[west3man]

I'd have more respect for the principal if it HAD been more about the "sex/booze/drugs" aspect. Affluence? Nothing illegal or immoral there.

I just took another look and saw that he said it's not "primarily" that, so clearly it WAS a factor. I'm not sure that changes much.



Ultimately, people who could've had a prom won't, even if they wouldn't have indulged in any of the things he had a problem with. I do not support his decision.

[K'Nort]

And you just don't get it, and you never will.

Well in fairness, if I had been a spoiled rich kid, I would think it would take until at least age 25 to see the other side of the story.

[Boldido]

Show of hands:

Who here has a "mad-on" for prom?


Anyone? Anyone? Bueller?

Well I remember my prom. There was this redheaded girl from the other side of the tracks that I was crazy about. We were best friends but I wanted it to be something more. She knew I was crazy about her, but she just saw me as a friend. Anyway, she started dating one of the really popular boys and it hurt me pretty bad. He was supposed to take her to prom, but kind of fucked her over at the last minute. She decided to go anyway and made this beautiful pink dress out of two dresses that she had. She thought she was going alone, but I surprised her by showing up at the prom as her date. I was dressed pretty cool. The popular guy saw her, however, and after talking to her for a while, I could tell that he would make her happy so I made her go with him. It was hard, but Elizabeth Shue was there to help ease my pain...oh shit, I'm sorry, that was Pretty in Pink.

My prom was fun, but not exactly a religious experience.

[Gaz]

You began this whole discussion by describing what can best be described as a tantrum with misplaced righteous indignation. You called a member of your school's administration a "fascist" because of a dress code violation.

In addition to practicing law, I work with young people and teach as often as I can. I treat young people with courtesy and demand the same from them. I also don't make the mistake of thinking that young people are the same as adults, they aren't. Only a young person would make the stupid fucking comparison of a dress code to fascism. I recognize that young people are often creatures of extremes. They are inhabiting bodies that are full of hormones, explosive emotions and are trying to figure out and establish their own independent identities.

I recognize that young people are like anyone else. There are smart ones and there are dumb ones. There are logical ones and there are emotional ones. Each one needs to be treated as an individual.

The only mistake your principal made was to argue with you for as long as you contend he did. You got busted and threw a temper tantrum, pure and simple. If I'm speaking with a cop or a judge or anyone with authority, one of the first things I do is acknowledge that person's authority. You don't do that by calling them fascists. You don't win arguments by demonizing your opponent. You don't win an argument by showing yourself to be unreasonable. Your arguments may have been, but if you used the word "fascist" then clearly you were not. You broke a rule and got busted for it.

Look, you can see me as having been a whiny brat. I can't dictate what you think of me. I'd prefer that NOT be what I come of as, but so be it. I believe I was right, and until I get some explanation as to what I was doing wrong, (beyond misplaced hyeprbole, and "owing him respect", which is bull, as I said, respect is earned in my eyes, NO ONE gets it gratis) then I will continue to feel that way, as is my right. And maybe I described it wrong, but being busted for doing what I'd done for years and not been touched for, just because one guy decides he's going to take the letter of the rules over the spirit, and places appearances over actual improvements, is not my idea of a case where respect has been earned. (He threatened to prevent us from sitting exams if we showed up in civvies, despite that having been the accepted practice for years. THAT one didn't go well, and got dropped sharpish.)
Could I have handled it better? Probably, but painting me as the one totally in the wrong is not going to convince me of your view of the better way.

[K'Nort]

Well I remember my prom. There was this redheaded girl from the other side of the tracks that I was crazy about. We were best friends but I wanted it to be something more. She knew I was crazy about her, but she just saw me as a friend. Anyway, she started dating one of the really popular boys and it hurt me pretty bad. He was supposed to take her to prom, but kind of fucked her over at the last minute. She decided to go anyway and made this beautiful pink dress out of two dresses that she had. She thought she was going alone, but I surprised her by showing up at the prom as her date. I was dressed pretty cool. The popular guy saw her, however, and after talking to her for a while, I could tell that he would make her happy so I made her go with him. It was hard, but Elizabeth Shue was there to help ease my pain...

Wait.... I thought that was a brunette.


And your shoes were too pointy. Loved the lapels, though.

[Tadhg]

Ultimately, people who could've had a prom won't, even if they wouldn't have indulged in any of the things he had a problem with. I do not support his decision.

They can still have a prom, it just won't be school sponsered. It's not like the school itself likely paid for the prom anyway, Every school I know of, has the class raise money to pay for the prom themselves. The only difference here is the school is not enabling the culture they feel is against their principles.

[Converge]

Well in fairness, if I had been a spoiled rich kid, I would think it would take until at least age 25 to see the other side of the story.

Are you implying that I'm a spoiled rich kid?

[Dreadstar]

. . . but painting me as the one totally in the wrong is not going to convince me of your view of the better way.


But, but, buttbutt...






My head hurt, make pain go 'way...

[K'Nort]

Look, you can see me as having been a whiny brat. I can't dictate what you think of me. I'd prefer that NOT be what I come of as, but so be it. I believe I was right, and until I get some explanation as to what I was doing wrong, (beyond misplaced hyeprbole, and "owing him respect",

What we have here is a failure to communicate. None of us have been saying that. But you're explaining why you ended up with the guy yelling at you for an hour. Selective listening. Same thing probably happened then.

[Converge]

They can still have a prom, it just won't be school sponsered. It's not like the school itself likely paid for the prom anyway, Every school I know of, has the class raise money to pay for the prom themselves. The only difference here is the school is not enabling the culture they feel is against their principles.

That's not a real prom.

That's just a formal party. It's like the football analogy I made earlier. If the principal cancelled football, the kids could still play football if they wanted to. But that's not real high school football.

And do you honestly think that the parents are going to go out of there way to organize a seperate prom? No. The good kids are going to screwed. There parents will just say "Sorry, I'm too busy to organize a prom for you. We're filthy rich. You know how we got that way? We have jobs. We don't have time to organize proms. Your principal is a self-righteous asshole."

So basically, the good kids who weren't going to participate in the "orgies" and the decadence aren't going to get a prom, while the spoiled brats will still get their orgies and their decadence. Good move, teach.

[Gaz]

What we have here is a failure to communicate. None of us have been saying that. But you're explaining why you ended up with the guy yelling at you for an hour. Selective listening. Same thing probably happened then.
Why do I imagine a heavy Southern accent on the first part of that? :p

[K'Nort]

That's not a real prom.

That's just a formal party. It's like the football analogy I made earlier. If the principal cancelled football, the kids could still play football if they wanted to. But that's not real high school football.

And do you honestly think that the parents are going to go out of there way to organize a seperate prom? No. The good kids are going to screwed. There parents will just say "Sorry, I'm too busy to organize a prom for you. We're filthy rich. You know how we got that way? We have jobs. We don't have time to organize proms. Your principal is a self-righteous asshole."

What the hell is a real prom? What Trix is describing is completely standard. What country are you in? Maybe that's the issue.

And of course the parents are going to do organize a prom. They'd go out of their way to arrange party boats but not the dance? The mothers will take a couple days off from their garden club and put together a cotillion. Simple enough.

[Slam_Bradley]

No. The good kids are going to screwed.


It'll be a good learning experience for them in the inherent unfairness of life.

It might even build character.

[Gaz]

But, but, buttbutt...






My head hurt, make pain go 'way...
*smacks with giant asprin*
That help?

And yes, I know I have "gottagettehlastworditis", I'll try to curb it.

[K'Nort]

Why do I imagine a heavy Southern accent on the first part of that? :p

Cuz you're all cultured and stuff.

[Converge]

What the hell is a real prom? What Trix is describing is completely standard. What country are you in? Maybe that's the issue.

And of course the parents are going to do organize a prom. They'd go out of their way to arrange party boats but not the dance? The mothers will take a couple days off from their garden club and put together a cotillion. Simple enough.

They were organizing party boats for their own children. Not for the entire senior class.

[K'Nort]

They were organizing party boats for their own children. Not for the entire senior class.

Well and that's who the Very Special Prom will be for too. But it sounds like the enrollment is small and exclusive enough that the two are pretty synonymous. Especially when you consider that the "entire senior class" is not exactly what the soc's think it is.

[Tadhg]

What the hell is a real prom?

Did you ever watch that Saved by the Bell episode where Kelly can't goto Prom? Yeah, it's like that.

[K'Nort]

Did you ever watch that Saved by the Bell episode where Kelly can't goto Prom? Yeah, it's like that.

I never saw Saved By the Bell actually. Nor 90210.

[Gaz]

Cuz you're all cultured and stuff.
Did ah menshun that I gaht a weakness fo' the southe'n belles?

[K'Nort]

Did ah menshun that I gaht a weakness fo' the southe'n belles?

Fiddle-dee-dee!

[west3man]

They can still have a prom, it just won't be school sponsered. It's not like the school itself likely paid for the prom anyway, Every school I know of, has the class raise money to pay for the prom themselves. The only difference here is the school is not enabling the culture they feel is against their principles.If the school wasn't paying for the prom, then "sponsorship" wasn't the issue. "Enabling" I can understand more, but their primary concerns pale in comparison to their secondary concerns... in my eyes.

If I'd paid $6000+ for attendance, I'd have certain expectations. Among them would be a prom. Maybe their budget isn't structured in that way.

* If not, I guess the students will have to find some other way to organize. Challenging, but not the worst thing in the world.

* If so, I'd say they owe those students/parents some money - not just the cost of prom materials, etc., but also the fees associated with the school's resources (including staff) being involved in the project.

[Boldido]

Look, you can see me as having been a whiny brat. I can't dictate what you think of me. I'd prefer that NOT be what I come of as, but so be it. I believe I was right, and until I get some explanation as to what I was doing wrong, (beyond misplaced hyeprbole, and "owing him respect", which is bull, as I said, respect is earned in my eyes, NO ONE gets it gratis) then I will continue to feel that way, as is my right. And maybe I described it wrong, but being busted for doing what I'd done for years and not been touched for, just because one guy decides he's going to take the letter of the rules over the spirit, and places appearances over actual improvements, is not my idea of a case where respect has been earned. (He threatened to prevent us from sitting exams if we showed up in civvies, despite that having been the accepted practice for years. THAT one didn't go well, and got dropped sharpish.)
Could I have handled it better? Probably, but painting me as the one totally in the wrong is not going to convince me of your view of the better way.

He isn't here to argue with. Often times I have clients who complain about how rude a cop is and how belligerent he was to them when making the arrest. It doesn't make a goddamn bit of difference in their representation. If the cop acts illegally, then, obviously, it comes into play, but otherwise, I focus on my clients actions.

I never said that you had to respect him, what I said is that you need to recognize his authority. The same holds true for bosses or cops or judges or anyone with power over you. I go before judges everyday that I have nothing but disdain for, but I show them courtesy and I show the office they hold, that of judge, respect, by calling them your honor and by complying with the protocol of practicing in court.

You started this by saying how wrong this man was by citing you for a dress code violation even though by everything you said, you were in violation of the dress code. Many examples we gave were peppered with the notion that the guys enforcing rules may be dicks in doing so. I'm sure that is probably the case here, but as you acknolwedge, you were technically in violation of the rule.

Finally, my goal is not to convince you my way is the better way. I am merely engaging in discussion on a message board. I do feel that anytime you use epithets with someone in a position of power you show yourself to be the weaker debater and do your side much more harm than good. Diplomacy might be bullshit, but it is effective bullshit. I have never seen anyone change their minds without the opportunity to do so while saving face.

[Gaz]

Fiddle-dee-dee!
Um,I'm sure Alaskan gals are right purty too...

[K'Nort]

Um,I'm sure Alaskan gals are right purty too...

You know Cool Hand Luke but not Gone With the Wind?

Yikes.

[west3man]

That's not a real prom.

That's just a formal party. It's like the football analogy I made earlier. If the principal cancelled football, the kids could still play football if they wanted to. But that's not real high school football.
Good point.

[Boldido]

My head hurt, make pain go 'way...

http://www.whipplesdomain.com/alocholpages/drinking/JoseCuervo02.jpg

[MacQuarrie]

I wasn't allowed to go to my prom due to earlier acts of civil disobedience.
I wasn't allowed to go to my prom due to:

1. Lack of money
2. Lack of interest
3. Lack of parental acknowledgement of my existence
4. provoking of complete revulsion in all members of the opposite gender

Proms are stupid. The disgusting displays of ostentatious consumerism and waste that surround them nowadays are even more stupid.

[K'Nort]

If the school wasn't paying for the prom, then "sponsorship" wasn't the issue. "Enabling" I can understand more, but their primary concerns pale in comparison to their secondary concerns... in my eyes.

If I'd paid $6000+ for attendance, I'd have certain expectations. Among them would be a prom. Maybe their budget isn't structured in that way.

* If not, I guess the students will have to find some other way to organize. Challenging, but not the worst thing in the world.

* If so, I'd say they owe those students/parents some money - not just the cost of prom materials, etc., but also the fees associated with the school's resources (including staff) being involved in the project.

If I was a parent paying $6,000 for tuition, I wouldn't automatically expect a prom. Not least because it has nothing to do with academic achievement. Then again, I wouldn't man the barricades for a football team either.

And I sure as heck wouldn't want to know of any public school spending resources on a dance.


And are you really saying the school owes them a refund for not getting a party? Would you as a parent really support that? Considering the other, actually relevant, things that money could be used for?

No wonder we keep reading about people in their early-20s getting in way over their heads with credit cards and other debt. We're not exactly setting good examples about what is and is not a necessity.

[Dreadstar]

If the school wasn't paying for the prom, then "sponsorship" wasn't the issue. "Enabling" I can understand more, but their primary concerns pale in comparison to their secondary concerns... in my eyes.

If I'd paid $6000+ for attendance, I'd have certain expectations. Among them would be a prom. Maybe their budget isn't structured in that way.

* If not, I guess the students will have to find some other way to organize. Challenging, but not the worst thing in the world.

* If so, I'd say they owe those students/parents some money - not just the cost of prom materials, etc., but also the fees associated with the school's resources (including staff) being involved in the project.

Who paid for your prom?

Our prom was always paid for by the Junior class. School had zero to do with the money involved in it. If their prom is structured the same way ours was, they could still do it and the money would come from the same place, the Junior class treasury.

In fact, now that I think of it, when I was a Junior and we paid for the prom at the Elks Club, I wonder exactly how the pricipal could have stopped us from continuing with the prom as is.

Yeah, he might have been able to call the Elks up and tell them to terminate, but now we're getting into some interestingly murky territoy as to what power the principal actually has toward activities not held on school grounds. And we, in return, might have had some actionable response to a defaulted contract from the Elks.

Interesting.

[Tom]

Except PROM! One of the most important parts of the high school experience.

I can't believe how you people think that prom doesn't mean anything.

I reiterate, you people are all crazy.
And I reiterate: you need to brush up on your reading comprehension because the point has been made repeatedly that more than likely, the kids will still have a prom, just not one sponsored by the school.

[Gaz]

He isn't here to argue with. Often times I have clients who complain about how rude a cop is and how belligerent he was to them when making the arrest. It doesn't make a goddamn bit of difference in their representation. If the cop acts illegally, then, obviously, it comes into play, but otherwise, I focus on my clients actions.

I never said that you had to respect him, what I said is that you need to recognize his authority. The same holds true for bosses or cops or judges or anyone with power over you. I go before judges everyday that I have nothing but disdain for, but I show them courtesy and I show the office they hold, that of judge, respect, by calling them your honor and by complying with the protocol of practicing in court.

Point taken. Although I tend to think more that the person gives the office prestige, not the other way round. Not popular, I know, but my view. And yes, I could have been less emotional, but it's not something that's easy to control, especially when you're a teenager pulled up for wearing a damn piece of clothing which no-one had ever expressed objection to before.


You started this by saying how wrong this man was by citing you for a dress code violation even though by everything you said, you were in violation of the dress code. Many examples we gave were peppered with the notion that the guys enforcing rules may be dicks in doing so. I'm sure that is probably the case here, but as you acknolwedge, you were technically in violation of the rule.

No, I complained that the rule itself was ridiculous, not that he objected to me breaking it.

Finally, my goal is not to convince you my way is the better way. I am merely engaging in discussion on a message board. I do feel that anytime you use epithets with someone in a position of power you show yourself to be the weaker debater and do your side much more harm than good. Diplomacy might be bullshit, but it is effective bullshit. I have never seen anyone change their minds without the opportunity to do so while saving face.
Again, you're probably right, and expressing it this way (heh, diplomatically, one might say) is easier for me to accept and apologise graciously for any beligerence.

[west3man]

If I was a parent paying $6,000 for tuition, I wouldn't automatically expect a prom. Not least because it has nothing to do with academic achievement. Football games, dances, and other fun/social university events have "nothing to do with academic achievement," but they're commonly built into the tuition. As I said, if it's built into the tuition, then the parents expected Event X in exchange for X Dollars. Deciding to present Event Y instead of Event X may be a good idea, but it isn't necessarily what the parents paid for. If the parents decide they want to pay for Event Y, instead, fine. It should be their choice, though if the budget is structured in such a way.


I'll skip the middle, since I think the above adequately addresses it.

No wonder we keep reading about people in their early-20s getting in way over their heads with credit cards and other debt. We're not exactly setting good examples about what is and is not a necessity. My point isn't about necessities. That point was about consumers getting what they paid for.

[Gaz]

You know Cool Hand Luke but not Gone With the Wind?

Yikes.
I'm getting to it! It's long, OK?

[Tadhg]

If the school wasn't paying for the prom, then "sponsorship" wasn't the issue. "Enabling" I can understand more, but their primary concerns pale in comparison to their secondary concerns... in my eyes.

But there's multiple concerns. And also, the school doesn't pay for the prom. The class does, Every school I've ever been involved with, that's how it works. The class starts raising money it's Freshman year so they can throw a nice prom their senior year. School funds(tuition in private schools, tax money in public schools) are not used to fund Prom.



* If not, I guess the students will have to find some other way to organize. Challenging, but not the worst thing in the world.

The students organize the prom anyway, usually there's a teacher or staff member as a, can't think of the word for it,(not mentor but similar) to help but it's the student council or prom committee or whatever that organize the prom.

* If so, I'd say they owe those students/parents some money - not just the cost of prom materials, etc., but also the fees associated with the school's resources (including staff) being involved in the project.

I seriously doubt any of the school tuition is earmarked for prom, so they owe the parents/children jack and squat.

[Boldido]

Point taken. Although I tend to think more that the person gives the office prestige, not the other way round. Not popular, I know, but my view. And yes, I could have been less emotional, but it's not something that's easy to control, especially when you're a teenager pulled up for wearing a damn piece of clothing which no-one had ever expressed objection to before.


No, I complained that the rule itself was ridiculous, not that he objected to me breaking it.

Again, you're probably right, and expressing it this way (heh, diplomatically, one might say) is easier for me to accept and apologise graciously for any beligerence.

I'm sorry for calling you a phuqer. But not Converge. I'd like to give him a blanket party...or was that Blair?

[K'Nort]

Football games, dances, and other fun/social university events have "nothing to do with academic achievement," but they're commonly built into the tuition. As I said, if it's built into the tuition, then the parents expected Event X in exchange for X Dollars. Deciding to present Event Y instead of Event X may be a good idea, but it isn't necessarily what the parents paid for. If the parents decide they want to pay for Event Y, instead, fine. It should be their choice, though if the budget is structured in such a way.


I don't move in the sorts of circles that attend private schools and such, but I'd really not expect that stuff to be included. Except for in the south, of course. Social things are ranked in a really high weird way down there.

I did just ask my boss, since he attended a private school, and they had to 100% self-fund their prom.

[Dreadstar]

The students organize the prom anyway, usually there's a teacher or staff member as a, can't think of the word for it,(not mentor but similar) to help but it's the student council or prom committee or whatever that organize the prom.

Advisor....

[Dreadstar]

I did just ask my boss, since he attended a private school, and they had to 100% self-fund their prom.

I don't think I've ever heard of it not being self(class)-funded. That doesn't mean there aren't some, however.

[Tadhg]

Advisor....

Yeah. That's the word, Sorry, I'm trying to get some Win 3.11 software work on an XP machine and my brain is going kablooey.

[west3man]

But there's multiple concerns. And also, the school doesn't pay for the prom. The class does, Every school I've ever been involved with, that's how it works. The class starts raising money it's Freshman year so they can throw a nice prom their senior year. School funds(tuition in private schools, tax money in public schools) are not used to fund Prom. "Jack and squat." Got it.

The students organize the prom anyway, usually there's a teacher or staff member as a, can't think of the word for it,(not mentor but similar) to help but it's the student council or prom committee or whatever that organize the prom. In my experience, they're called "sponsors" and that's what I'm talking about. Accountability, clear expectations, clear organizational structure, etc.

That's what the students would have to replace.

*grating portions deleted*

[Dreadstar]

. . . I'd like to give him a blanket party...or was that Blair?

No you said that Blair had an ass that looked like two pigs in a blanket.


What? I have it on tape!

[K'Nort]

No you said that Blair had an ass that looked like two pigs in a blanket.

Two pigs fighting under a blanket.

[Tadhg]

"Jack and squat." Got it.

In my experience, they're called "sponsors" and that's what I'm talking about. Accountability, clear expectations, clear organizational structure, etc.

That's what the students would have to replace.

*grating portions deleted*


Again those positions are either volunteer or paid out of the money raised by the class, the school doesn't pay for it, not in my experience anyway.

[Dreadstar]

Two pigs fighting under a blanket.

I stand corrected!

[west3man]

Again those positions are either volunteer or paid out of the money raised by the class, the school doesn't pay for it, not in my experience anyway.
I think some of that occurs during school hours, but maybe other schools (or schools, these days) are more strict about this sort of thing.


I see Converge's point about it not being "the same thing," though.

[Slam_Bradley]

Advisor....


That's probably a facist term. It would mean that we are doubting the children's ability to make determanations for themselves. Advice means that you must think that you know better than the advisee and that may hurt their precious self-esteem. They should probably be called facilitators now.

[Tadhg]

I see Converge's point about it not being "the same thing," though.

Honestly I don't. When for all practical purposes, there's no difference. The football thing is not analogous at all for a variety of reasons, the least of which being monitarily. For all intents and purposes, there would be no difference in a prom sanctioned by the school and one not sanctioned by the school(Well other than the fact a non-sanctioned one has a better liklihood to be less strict).

[K'Nort]

That's probably a facist term. It would mean that we are doubting the children's ability to make determanations for themselves. Advice means that you must think that you know better than the advisee and that may hurt their precious self-esteem. They should probably be called facilitators now.

No no no. Staff.

[Gaz]

That's probably a facist term. It would mean that we are doubting the children's ability to make determanations for themselves. Advice means that you must think that you know better than the advisee and that may hurt their precious self-esteem. They should probably be called facilitators now.
I thought we'd gotten past this...:(

[Slam_Bradley]

I see Converge's point about it not being "the same thing," though.


I don't. But then I reiterate...it would be a good character-building learning experience to find out that life isn't fair.

[K'Nort]

It suddenly occurs to me that this is all the Beastie Boys' fault.

[Tadhg]

It suddenly occurs to me that this is all the Beastie Boys' fault.

They're too young for the Beastie Boys.

[Gaz]

They're too young for the Beastie Boys.
Don't you sabotage her theory!

[Tadhg]

Don't you sabotage her theory!

See! They all think Beastie Boys begins and ends with Ill Communication

[K'Nort]

They're too young for the Beastie Boys.

Oh like that song isn't a classic now. Besides, they would have heard it in the womb and stuff. I'm onto something!

Just a sec....

Yep, they know it.

[Loren]

That's not a real prom.

That's just a formal party. It's like the football analogy I made earlier. If the principal cancelled football, the kids could still play football if they wanted to. But that's not real high school football.

And do you honestly think that the parents are going to go out of there way to organize a seperate prom? No.

I've been meaning to jump in and iterate my support for the Tom/Boldido/Slam/etc. side, and now I actually have something to contribute.

I went to a private Christian high school, where tuition was $6000 a year or so. And the school didn't have a prom. Still doesn't. What the school had was 'Junior-Senior,' an evening where everybody got dressed up in tuxes and dresses and we had a formal dinner. Senior superlatives were given out at the time.

The denomination that the school was created by does not endorse dancing, so the school did not sponsor a dance. Only dinner. (We didn't have dances any other time during the school year either.) So guess what happened every single year? A bunch of parents planned a dance to immediately follow the dinner; oftentimes they managed to get it in the same building. You wrote a check to the school to attend the dinner, and a check to somebody else to attend the dance. And everybody was sated.

I didn't go my junior year, but I enjoyed it well enough my senior year. And if people splurged, I didn't notice. I owned a tuxedo, so I only rented a vest and tie. And we arranged transportation for four of us with a family friend who owned a limo, and that cost us $100. (He also owned a hearse, but my date rejected that suggestion.)

[howyadoin]

Jesus, people need to grow the fuck up and realize that high school isn't the pinnacle of life.

[K'Nort]

Jesus, people need to grow the fuck up and realize that high school isn't the pinnacle of life.

And thank God for that!

[Dreadstar]

Jesus, people need to grow the fuck up and realize that high school isn't the pinnacle of life.


Why must you hurt me so with your lies?!?!?!?

[Slam_Bradley]

Why must you hurt me so with your lies?!?!?!?


Do you remember that football game? You know the one. When you made that tackle.


Good times. Good times.

[Spackling Compound]

I've been meaning to jump in and iterate my support for the Tom/Boldido/Slam/etc. side, and now I actually have something to contribute.

I went to a private Christian high school, where tuition was $6000 a year or so. And the school didn't have a prom. Still doesn't. What the school had was 'Junior-Senior,' an evening where everybody got dressed up in tuxes and dresses and we had a formal dinner. Senior superlatives were given out at the time.

The denomination that the school was created by does not endorse dancing, so the school did not sponsor a dance. Only dinner. (We didn't have dances any other time during the school year either.) So guess what happened every single year? A bunch of parents planned a dance to immediately follow the dinner; oftentimes they managed to get it in the same building. You wrote a check to the school to attend the dinner, and a check to somebody else to attend the dance. And everybody was sated.

I didn't go my junior year, but I enjoyed it well enough my senior year. And if people splurged, I didn't notice. I owned a tuxedo, so I only rented a vest and tie. And we arranged transportation for four of us with a family friend who owned a limo, and that cost us $100. (He also owned a hearse, but my date rejected that suggestion.)

You...owned...a...tuxedo?

[K'Nort]

You...owned...a...tuxedo?

Probably ties into the hearse somehow.

[Loren]

You...owned...a...tuxedo?

Yep, and as it was senior year, it was the second tux I'd owned (and the one I still own). In my high school chorus, the guys were required to wear tuxedos for our performances. For my freshman year, we just bought a used tux from an older student. But I got a new tux (as did my brother) my senior year.

I wonder why more people don't own tuxes. Mine was just over $100 new, and the darn things cost nearly that much to rent a single time. With two rentals, you've already paid more than what it costs to buy your own tuxedo.

[west3man]

I've been meaning to jump in and iterate my support for the Tom/Boldido/Slam/etc. side, and now I actually have something to contribute.

I went to a private Christian high school, where tuition was $6000 a year or so. And the school didn't have a prom. Still doesn't. What the school had was 'Junior-Senior,' an evening where everybody got dressed up in tuxes and dresses and we had a formal dinner. Senior superlatives were given out at the time.

The denomination that the school was created by does not endorse dancing, so the school did not sponsor a dance. Only dinner. (We didn't have dances any other time during the school year either.) So guess what happened every single year? A bunch of parents planned a dance to immediately follow the dinner; oftentimes they managed to get it in the same building. You wrote a check to the school to attend the dinner, and a check to somebody else to attend the dance. And everybody was sated.

I didn't go my junior year, but I enjoyed it well enough my senior year. And if people splurged, I didn't notice. I owned a tuxedo, so I only rented a vest and tie. And we arranged transportation for four of us with a family friend who owned a limo, and that cost us $100. (He also owned a hearse, but my date rejected that suggestion.)
So, your school didn't end the "Junior/Senior," despite the fact that it was associated with activities they didn't approve of?

That's the kind of thing I support.

[Tadhg]

So, your school didn't end the "Junior/Senior," despite the fact that it was associated with activities they didn't approve of?

That's the kind of thing I support.

You do realize that it wasn't JUST the after-parties that led the school to its decision, right? It was the spectacle that the ENTIRE prom event turned into.

[Michael P]

That's not a real prom.

That's just a formal party. It's like the football analogy I made earlier. If the principal cancelled football, the kids could still play football if they wanted to. But that's not real high school football.
And the walls came tumbling down...

[west3man]

I'm noting the irony of teenagers being told to grow the fuck up.

[Joe Rice]

Hunh.

I completely support the guy. I give him a hell of a lot of credit for taking a stand. I wonder how many people are gonna disagree with me?

I agree with you. This guy is awesome. I want him as a principal.

[Joe Rice]

Enough good points have been made that I retract the statement made in my earlier ytmnd link. However, I can't help but question the wisdom of Brother Hoaglund's actions. It seems to me that he's attacking a symptom, and not a problem. If he's really so concerned about the decadent behavior exhibited by these prom-related activities, and how they fly in the face of his school's values, then it seems to me that a far better solution would be to work harder to instill those values in his students and inspire them to act in ways befitting graduates of the school.

Hard to do when the parents contradict him at home.

Trust me. Bottom line, he got the school out of a nasty situation. The kids and parents still want to be party-people? It's on them.

[Joe Rice]

I dunno, when I see a guy putting words like "orgy," "decadence," and "bacchanalia" into a letter to parents, I see someone who's got moralizing on his mind.

Someone like the leader of a relgious school, whose job is moralizing.

[Joe Rice]

I think he's got a point. The school may have had every right to restrict those colors, but as the one being restricted, he had every right to ask for a clarification as to why. And by the time you're seventeen, "Because I said so" is not a good enough answer.

I was about to say "It sure enough is," but I think I'll stop replying until I read this whole thread, as everyone has already made my points so far.

[Michael P]

That, or you could try taking the piss out of someone who's not me.

[Tom]

I'm noting the irony of teenagers being told to grow the fuck up.
Are there any teenagers on this thread? I think Gaz is 19 but I'm not sure.

[Joe Rice]

Precisely, which is why the English teacher I mentioned had such influence on me. She actively ENCOURAGED us to question things. Evaluate it, don't take at face value. She took our opinions in as though they had value and listened when we said we preferred reading Williams to Shakespeare. In return, we agreed to read MORE than we had to, in order to do those plays.

Questioning is fine. I encourage it too. But I make sure my students are man enough or woman enough to pay the price if they break the rule they question without whining. They do so and they're 7.

[Joe Rice]

That, or you could try taking the piss out of someone who's not me.

Hey, you were wrong like four times in a row! That's not my fault!

[Tom]

You do realize that it wasn't JUST the after-parties that led the school to its decision, right? It was the spectacle that the ENTIRE prom event turned into.
That, and I'm kinda having a hard time comparing kids dancing with kids dropping $20,000 on a party pad.

[west3man]

Are there any teenagers on this thread? I think Gaz is 19 but I'm not sure.
I think there are at least a couple, but I didn't think the criciticsm was limited to those in this thread.

[Tom]

I'm pretty sure he was referring to the people in the thread.

[Michael P]

Hey, you were wrong like four times in a row! That's not my fault!
Please. Everything I don't like is your fault.

[west3man]

You do realize that it wasn't JUST the after-parties that led the school to its decision, right? It was the spectacle that the ENTIRE prom event turned into.
The meat of his objections had to do with things that occurred AT the prom.

[Deathstroke]

Coming late to the thread, but I for one would've been ecstatic if my school sponsored an orgy when I went to school. It might've been a way for them to get me to spend money on going to the senior prom instead of staying home and accomplishing just as much as I would have if I'd actually gone.

[Joe Rice]

I'm noting the irony of teenagers being told to grow the fuck up.

How is that ironic? It is something that teenagers, in fact, need to do.

A prom is not a right. A school's job is to educate its students. A religious school's job is to educate its students and to moralize them. The spectacle of prom was going against this religious school's policy, so they withdrew support. They are not preventing the parents, wealthy as they are, from throwing their own dance. But the school's name will not be behind it.

There's nothing wrong with that, folks. Sure, it sucks for what few kids may have done the right thing the whole time, but oh, well. Sometimes things suck. Deal with it. No one is "owed" a prom. That's a ludicrously middle/upper class western individualist concept to begin with.

This school did its job.

[Joe Rice]

The meat of his objections had to do with things that occurred AT the prom.

No, actually, it didn't.

It was the monetary extravagence that he cited as the problem. The 20K party pads. The limos, the boats. I don't think any of those things were AT the prom.

[Joe Rice]

Please. Everything I don't like is your fault.

You make a good point.

[Guapo Méndez]

This school did its job.


Indeed.

Imagine this: the Principal did not veto the prom and things go on as usual.
Inebriated kids either crash the booze cruise or get alcohol poisoning or have a huge limo accident.

Most likely reaction?

"How did this happen? The school knew things like these went down and did nothing? The principal allowed the prom to occur? Is he out of his mind...kids aren't old enough to drink! I can't believe he didn't have the guts to do something. It's a school sponsored thing after all.

[K'Nort]

No, actually, it didn't.

It was the monetary extravagence that he cited as the problem. The 20K party pads. The limos, the boats. I don't think any of those things were AT the prom.

I didn't think any of the objections were related to AT the prom either.

[MacQuarrie]

You...owned...a...tuxedo?
I own a tuxedo. Thank God for thrift stores.

[K'Nort]

How is that ironic? It is something that teenagers, in fact, need to do.

The irony is that anyone who says 'fuck' is more in need of growing up than any teenager.

[Joe Rice]

The irony is that anyone who says 'fuck' is more in need of growing up than any teenager.

I dunno, I've seen some PRETTY immature teenagers in my time.

[K'Nort]

I dunno, I've seen some PRETTY immature teenagers in my time.

I've seen even more ugly ones.

[Joe Rice]

I've seen even more ugly ones.

Oh, low blow, low blow. But MAN some of them look funky, you're right. What's weird is when someone goes from cute kid to freaky teen back to a normal, attractive person.

EDIT: Oh, Jesus Christ. I just got the joke. I'm an idiot. Hanging out with Youngies too much.

[MacQuarrie]

Indeed.

Imagine this: the Principal did not veto the prom and things go on as usual.
Inebriated kids either crash the booze cruise or get alcohol poisoning or have a huge limo accident.

Most likely reaction?

"How did this happen? The school knew things like these went down and did nothing? The principal allowed the prom to occur? Is he out of his mind...kids aren't old enough to drink! I can't believe he didn't have the guts to do something. It's a school sponsored thing after all.
You mean like a few months ago when a bunch of overprivileged kids went off to the Bahamas for a school-sponsored party-trip, then when one of the teens wandered off in the middle of the night with a couple of locals and was never seen again, it was somehow the school's fault?

[Michael P]

You mean like a few months ago when a bunch of overprivileged kids went off to the Bahamas for a school-sponsored party-trip, then when one of the teens wandered off in the middle of the night with a couple of locals and was never seen again, it was somehow the school's fault?
Well, we all know pretty blonde white girls are never wrong.

[Guapo Méndez]

You mean like a few months ago when a bunch of overprivileged kids went off to the Bahamas for a school-sponsored party-trip, then when one of the teens wandered off in the middle of the night with a couple of locals and was never seen again, it was somehow the school's fault?

Exactly right, amigo.

[howyadoin]

I'm noting the irony of teenagers being told to grow the fuck up.Read Tom's response.

[west3man]

Read Tom's response.
So who, exactly, needs to grow the fuck up?

[west3man]

No, actually, it didn't.

It was the monetary extravagence that he cited as the problem. The 20K party pads. The limos, the boats. I don't think any of those things were AT the prom.
That's actually what I meant to say, that they didn't occur at the prom. That was my point (for those who don't believe me, this is more in-line with what I'd already said).

[west3man]

How is that ironic? It is something that teenagers, in fact, need to do.
No. It's something they WILL do and telling them to do it doesn't make it happen any sooner.

[howyadoin]

So who, exactly, needs to grow the fuck up?People who think that high school is the pinnacle of life.

[K'Nort]

That's actually what I meant to say, that they didn't occur at the prom. That was my point (for those who don't believe me, this is more in-line with what I'd already said).

Has it ever occured to you how unproductive this constant "I know you all think I'm lying" schtick is? If you think we're that slimy, why are you wasting your breath?

[Slam_Bradley]

No. It's something they WILL do and telling them to do it doesn't make it happen any sooner.


Are you sure? And when will it happen? I've met an awful lot of twenty somethings that haven't managed it yet.

[Tadhg]

Are you sure? And when will it happen? I've met an awful lot of twenty somethings that haven't managed it yet.

Shut up, Fascist!

[west3man]

Has it ever occured to you how unproductive this constant "I know you all think I'm lying" schtick is? If you think we're that slimy, why are you wasting your breath?
If people didn't do it I wouldn't have to make the comments.

[Joe Rice]

That's actually what I meant to say, that they didn't occur at the prom. That was my point (for those who don't believe me, this is more in-line with what I'd already said).

But they happened BECAUSE of the prom. The principal didn't approve of their existence, so he withdrew sponsorship/endorsement/whatever of the prom. They'll probably go on regardless, but not in his name. Makes perfect sense to me. No one is owed a prom.

[west3man]

Are you sure? And when will it happen? I've met an awful lot of twenty somethings that haven't managed it yet.
I'd wager that I've met even fewer who did it all of a sudden because someone told them to "grow the fuck up?"

[K'Nort]

If people didn't do it I wouldn't have to make the comments.

The hell? What people?

[Joe Rice]

If people didn't do it I wouldn't have to make the comments.

Who here has done this? Who on this thread has intimated that you're lying about your arguments or whatever?

Sometimes teenagers need to be reminded that they need to grow up. They need a reminder that they lack perspective.

[Joe Rice]

I'd wager that I've met even fewer who did it all of a sudden because someone told them to "grow the fuck up?"

I know every now and then I needed and got a stiff kick in the pants. It works with non-whiners.

[west3man]

But they happened BECAUSE of the prom. The principal didn't approve of their existence, so he withdrew sponsorship/endorsement/whatever of the prom. They'll probably go on regardless, but not in his name.And we come full circle because in Loren's example, things the principal didn't approve of "happened BECAUSE of the "Junior/Senior." They simply recognized that the event wasn't the problem and having the event wasn't an endorsement of what followed the event.

Makes perfect sense to me.

No one is owed a prom.Why do you keep telling me this?

[west3man]

The hell? What people?
PEOPLE. If you've never seen anyone at CBR imply that someone else was lying, then you've missed a lot of discussion.

[west3man]

Who here has done this? Who on this thread has intimated that you're lying about your arguments or whatever? Where in this thread did I SAY anyone in it intimated that I'm lying about my arguments or whatever?

[Joe Rice]

And we come full circle because in Loren's example, things the principal didn't approve of "happened BECAUSE of the "Junior/Senior." They simply recognized that the event wasn't the problem and having the event wasn't an endorsement of what followed the event.

Makes perfect sense to me.

That worked for them. This principal doesn't need to do the same thing. He's actively distancing his school from the outlandish spending and debauchery. He's washing his hands of it. And he's making the parents and students think about what's really important.


Why do you keep telling me this?

Because you're acting like the principal is a jerk for taking away these kids precious prom, when he's simply not sponsoring it and they don't need to have one in the first place.

To what, exactly, do you object?

[west3man]

People who think that high school is the pinnacle of life.
To follow other examples, who here in this thread has suggested that high school is the pinnacle of life?

[MacQuarrie]

Are you sure? And when will it happen? I've met an awful lot of twenty somethings that haven't managed it yet.
I know an awful lot of fortysomethings (and a lot of awful fortysomethings) who haven't managed it yet.

[Joe Rice]

PEOPLE. If you've never seen anyone at CBR imply that someone else was lying, then you've missed a lot of discussion.

So? Why are you worried about it? In this context, especially? It just comes off as really weird. "If you think I'm lying, I'm not, see?" Uh, no one said you were. Why are you acting like they did?

[Slam_Bradley]

I know an awful lot of fortysomethings (and a lot of awful fortysomethings) who haven't managed it yet.


I'm not fortysomething yet or else I'd think you were implying something, Mac.

[Joe Rice]

To follow other examples, who here in this thread has suggested that high school is the pinnacle of life?

The ones freaking out about kids not having a school-sponsored prom imply as much. "Prom is very important! It is the pinnacle of high school!"

[west3man]

That worked for them. This principal doesn't need to do the same thing. He's actively distancing his school from the outlandish spending and debauchery. He's washing his hands of it. And he's making the parents and students think about what's really important. "Worked," in this case, is simply a matter of perspective.

re: outlandish spending

50 students spending $200 each get a $10,000 place to have fun in, with their parents approval.

re: debauchery

Not even his primary concern. Sex/booze/drugs come after outlandish spending? I'm not as impressed by him as some of you are.



Because you're acting like the principal is a jerk for taking away these kids precious prom, when he's simply not sponsoring it and they don't need to have one in the first place. I've given reasons why I disagree with the decision. None of them was that they were definitely owed a prom.

I even said that if the students have to organize them entire thing, themselves, that wouldn't be the worst thing in the world.

To what, exactly, do you object?
Read my posts.

[west3man]

So? Why are you worried about it? In this context, especially? It just comes off as really weird. "If you think I'm lying, I'm not, see?" Uh, no one said you were. Why are you acting like they did?
1) Please recognize the presence and value of "if."
2) I could've said, "Now, please don't jump all over that element of my statement because it's only there for the people who are quick to assume the worst of me." Judging by the past page or so, people would've denied the necessity or relevance of that, but here we are.
3) I'm worried about it because these kinds of things are unnecessary diversions that result in negativity.

[Joe Rice]

"Worked," in this case, is simply a matter of perspective.

re: outlandish spending

50 students spending $200 each get a $10,000 place to have fun in, with their parents approval.

This spending, with the boats and everything else, highlighted a vanity and consumerism that went contrary to the beliefs taught at the school. So he withdrew the school from the events and the prom related to them.

re: debauchery

Not even his primary concern. Sex/booze/drugs come after outlandish spending? I'm not as impressed by him as some of you are.

A man of the cloth more concerned with social justice and financial righteousness than a few kids getting stoned sounds great to me.



I've given reasons why I disagree with the decision. None of them was that they were definitely owed a prom.

I even said that if the students have to organize them entire thing, themselves, that wouldn't be the worst thing in the world.


Read my posts.

You give off an air, in many of your discussions, of bitching for bitching's sake. You wheedle and nitpick and ignore at your discretion. A lot of the times, I can't tell what the hell you're trying to say. This is one of them.

[K'Nort]

PEOPLE. If you've never seen anyone at CBR imply that someone else was lying, then you've missed a lot of discussion.

Sure. But the way you worded it accused specifically people in this thread of specifically assuming you were lying. And that is very insulting. If you didn't realize that, fine. But now you know for next time.

And you really have sounded like you think these kids have a god-given right to a prom.

[Joe Rice]

1) Please recognize the presence and value of "if."
2) I could've said, "Now, please don't jump all over that element of my statement because it's only there for the people who are quick to assume the worst of me." Judging by the past page or so, people would've denied the necessity or relevance of that, but here we are.
3) I'm worried about it because these kinds of things are unnecessary diversions that result in negativity.

Um, OK, I guess. Me, I wait until someone accuses me of lying before I start being defensive about it. If it makes sense to you to do this before, then by all means do it.

[howyadoin]

I'd wager that I've met even fewer who did it all of a sudden because someone told them to "grow the fuck up?"What exactly is your point, West? Is there something about what I said you disagree with?

[Guapo Méndez]

"Worked," in this case, is simply a matter of perspective.

re: outlandish spending

50 students spending $200 each get a $10,000 place to have fun in, with their parents approval. .

200? And who pays the other half? 10k was the down payment.

I don't know, but 200 seems like an important sum. I mean around here getting people to pony up 30 bucks for their prom tickets is like pulling teeth with spaghetti tongs.

Most likely the parents will pay the nut.

And taking into consideration that tuition per student is 6k, spending almost three times that on one night is rather much.



re: debauchery

Not even his primary concern. Sex/booze/drugs come after outlandish spending? I'm not as impressed by him as some of you are. .

Speculation on my part:
If he came out and condemned the sez/boozwe/drugs, the reactions would have been wildly different than those we have now. He's choosing one of the lesser evils to call off the whole shebang.

And as a HS director, trust me, I am impressed by what he is doing.



I've given reasons why I disagree with the decision. None of them was that they were definitely owed a prom.



Mix and match. Other posters in this thread rallied to the "but Prom is the most important thing evah!" and that's what other posters shot down.

You're just getting in the way of fallout.




I even said that if the students have to organize them entire thing, themselves, that wouldn't be the worst thing in the world..


If they paid for the prom with their own money, it would. First thing out would be the 20k party pad.




Read my posts.

I have.
I disagree with your reasons, is all.

[Joe Rice]

What exactly is your point, West?

OK, it's not just me. Whew.

[howyadoin]

The ones freaking out about kids not having a school-sponsored prom imply as much. "Prom is very important! It is the pinnacle of high school!"Thank you, Mr. Rice.

[Guapo Méndez]

OK, it's not just me. Whew.

That makes four of us.

[west3man]

Sure. But the way you worded it accused specifically people in this thread of specifically assuming you were lying. I see where I could've said "those who might not believe me" but really, this comment is nothing when compared to telling people to "grow the fuck up."

I don't see a line of people challenging that one.

And you really have sounded like you think these kids have a god-given right to a prom. I've given reasons. I've shown that I haven't lost perspective by admitting that it wouldn't be the worst thing in the world if these students had to do it all by themselves.

Interpreting that as my saying they've got a "god-given right to a prom" is quite a stretch, in my opinion.

[west3man]

The ones freaking out about kids not having a school-sponsored prom imply as much. "Prom is very important! It is the pinnacle of high school!"
You and I have very different ideas about what "freaking out" is.

[west3man]

A man of the cloth more concerned with social justice and financial righteousness than a few kids getting stoned sounds great to me. "social justice" and "financial righteousness"?

Allrightee.

You give off an air, in many of your discussions, of bitching for bitching's sake. You wheedle and nitpick and ignore at your discretion. I believe that was you who recently said something about making things personal and someone not being worth listening to.

You don't apply your standards very fairly.

[Joe Rice]

I see where I could've said "those who might not believe me" but really, this comment is nothing when compared to telling people to "grow the fuck up."

I don't see a line of people challenging that one.

People tend not to challenge things they agree with.

You and I have very different ideas about what "freaking out" is.

Yes, Spock, I was being literal.

[west3man]

Um, OK, I guess. Me, I wait until someone accuses me of lying before I start being defensive about it. If it makes sense to you to do this before, then by all means do it.
Veiled and explicit insults are all over this board and all over this country. This is nothing new.

I just got called a liar in another thread, for no good reason. I didn't insult anyone and wasn't "bitching for bitching's sake." If I choose to insert a statement to decrease the likelihood of such responses, it's really no big deal.

No one said a word when that last incident occurred and it's likely that they wouldn't the next time, either.

[Joe Rice]

"social justice" and "financial righteousness"?

Allrightee.

Yeah, apparently important concepts to this Church. I'm glad they're focussing more on them than drinking, to tell the truth.

I believe that was you who recently said something about making things personal and someone not being worth listening to.

You don't apply your standards very fairly.

That was honestly me trying to explain to you why so many people react adversely to your posts in a thread like this. I'm clearly not alone in not always being able to understand what it is you mean, other than a general impression of disagreeability.

[west3man]

People tend not to challenge things they agree with.



Yes, Spock, I was being literal.
You and I are done here.

[Joe Rice]

Veiled and explicit insults are all over this board and all over this country. This is nothing new.

I just got called a liar in another thread, for no good reason. I didn't insult anyone and wasn't "bitching for bitching's sake." If I choose to insert a statement to decrease the likelihood of such responses, it's really no big deal.

No one said a word when that last incident occurred and it's likely that they wouldn't the next time, either.

Because people don't pay attention to these insulting trolls. You shouldn't let them bother you or even enter your radar.

[howyadoin]

I'd wager that I've met even fewer who did it all of a sudden because someone told them to "grow the fuck up?"What exactly is your point, West? Is there something about what I said you disagree with?

[Joe Rice]

You and I are done here.

Uh, OK.

Would "Data" have been funnier?

[west3man]

What exactly is your point, West? Is there something about what I said you disagree with?
I tried to engage you on this pages back and now you show up, after a couple of uninformative responses and ask me what my point is.

Your comment: "Jesus, people need to grow the fuck up and realize that high school isn't the pinnacle of life."

Since no one has pointed out anyone who's said that "high school is the pinnacle of life," I've little choice but to infer that you're directing this at those who disagree with you. The implication being that if they disagree with you on the issue (not on the pinnacle of life point) then they are immature.

I disagree with that.

[west3man]

This wasn't the best example of how UNnecessary it is to anticipate negativity, sarcasm, or skepticism.

[Joe Rice]

This wasn't the best example of how UNnecessary it is to anticipate negativity, sarcasm, or skepticism.

You didn't do that. You said, "If you think I'm lying" and no one thought you were lying. No one even joked about thinking you were lying.

[howyadoin]

I tried to engage you on this pages back and now you show upI was at work earlier. I hope that doesn't offend anyone.

after a couple of uninformative responses and ask me what my point is.On the contrary, it was patently obvious what I was saying. I didn't feel like it needed expanding upon.

Your comment: "Jesus, people need to grow the fuck up and realize that high school isn't the pinnacle of life."And I stand by that. High school is a minor blip in a human life, and the fact that people are upset with a mean old principal for ruining people's fun is proof that they still haven't realized that.

Since no one has pointed out anyone who's said that "high school is the pinnacle of life," I've little choice but to infer that you're directing this at those who disagree with you. The implication being that if they disagree with you on the issue (not on the pinnacle of life point) then they are immature.

I disagree with that.Wow, that's some serious projecting. And some serious literal-mindedness.

[Joe Rice]

Wow, that's some serious projecting. And some serious literal-mindedness.

Captain, what is this "figurative speech" you speak of? Are you saying that cats and dogs did not really fall from the sky? This is highly illogical.

[K'Nort]

I tried to engage you on this pages back and now you show up, after a couple of uninformative responses and ask me what my point is.

Your comment: "Jesus, people need to grow the fuck up and realize that high school isn't the pinnacle of life."

Since no one has pointed out anyone who's said that "high school is the pinnacle of life," I've little choice but to infer that you're directing this at those who disagree with you. The implication being that if they disagree with you on the issue (not on the pinnacle of life point) then they are immature.

I disagree with that.

You have GOT to stop taking every single post personally. It annoys people to be accused of things they didn't do. And it's pretty egotistical besides.

And there were some comments who were getting pretty close to this pinnacle stuff, yes. Like the whole thing about a senior prom is this totally vital experience to be the last time you and your buddies will ever see each other again. Bullshit on that.

[west3man]

I was at work earlier. I hope that doesn't offend anyone. You responded to me without offering any actual clarity. That wasn't work. That was you. Your choice.

You've shown how much you really care about having offended anyone.

On the contrary, it was patently obvious what I was saying. I didn't feel like it needed expanding upon. So, when you responded to me, you had no INTENTION of clarifying. Noted.

And I stand by that. High school is a minor blip in a human life, and the fact that people are upset with a mean old principal for ruining people's fun is proof that they still haven't realized that. As is someone closing a chat thread, but that never stopped a number of people from being pissed about that.

Despite feeling different than those people, I attempted to remain respectful, as I do NOW and supported their point-of-view... based simply upon the reasons.

It's not about whether something is a blip. It's a big enough deal to enough people for the media to report on it and for a thread to continue for dozens of pages.

Wow, that's some serious projecting. Not at all. And some serious literal-mindedness. Not at all. It's called a chain-of-logic.

You could show me its flaws or you could just say something and expect me to believe it is so because you say it is so. I think the former's far more reasonable, which is why I put my reasons out here instead of going on about how patently obvious they were.

All done.

[K'Nort]

As is someone closing a chat thread, but that never stopped a number of people from being pissed about that.

Well that's totally petty. You're determined to just make this "everyone hates me" thing true rather than be wrong, aren't you?

[Forsaken_One]

In a bit over 12 hours this got to 30 pages. What the hell?

[K'Nort]

Oh and it's 7pm here and I'd like to go home and eat something. But feel free to call me names for running away.

[Slam_Bradley]

You responded to me without offering any actual clarity. That wasn't work. That was you. Your choice.

You've shown how much you really care about having offended anyone.


Who did he offend, West? The only one who seems offended is you. And last time I checked you aren't a teen-ager.

[west3man]

You have GOT to stop taking every single post personally. It annoys people to be accused of things they didn't do. People get called asses and have "snark" hurled their way time and again and you describe this conversation as "civil."

I say something about people who might think I'm lying, which would not be YOU or anyone else here if that's not what you think (much like howy's "pinnacle" comment), and we get a bunch of pages of discussion about it.

It's odd that you see my response as taking something personally, but you don't see it in this massive and unnecessary derailment that you started.


Talk about annoying. And one more thing, K'Nort, the last time you and I got into any kind of conflict, I asked if you could refrain from responding to me with insults or "gut punches" and you never returned to the thread. I asked you that because that's the behavior you've exhibited toward me in the past, even when I hadn't insulted you. So, if you'd like for me to consider your words (which I have done), I respectfully ask that you consider mine.

And it's pretty egotistical besides. This is YOU showing ME how and why I shouldn't take things personally, right?

I already said how someone called me a liar, recently, and no one else said a word. I didn't even say anything. When I DO say something, then this kind of thing happens. Really, it's a no-win situation, so I do what makes sense to me. That's all I can do and what I will continue to do.

And there were some comments who were getting pretty close to this pinnacle stuff, yes. Like the whole thing about a senior prom is this totally vital experience to be the last time you and your buddies will ever see each other again. Bullshit on that. It's unfortunate that this is the first time anyone has actually come CLOSE to answering my question about this.

That should say something about someone [i]other than me[i].

[west3man]

Who did he offend, West? The only one who seems offended is you. And last time I checked you aren't a teen-ager.
He already said he wasn't talking about teenagers, so ...

[west3man]

Well that's totally petty. You're determined to just make this "everyone hates me" thing true rather than be wrong, aren't you?
It's petty if *I* bring up the past, but not if anyone else does?

I haven't said a word about everyone hating me, K'Nort. If you really wanna understand me, try reading and responding to what I've actually said.

[west3man]

Oh and it's 7pm here and I'd like to go home and eat something. But feel free to call me names for running away.
K'Nort just implied that I (...or someone in this thread) might call her names for "running away," yet no one has done this. This is the same person who just told me, "It annoys people to be accused of things they didn't do. And it's pretty egotistical besides."

That's a clear double-standard. With that, I'm done with this derailment.

[howyadoin]

From earlier in the thread:
Except PROM! One of the most important parts of the high school experience.

I can't believe how you people think that prom doesn't mean anything.

I reiterate, you people are all crazy.Does that sound mature to you?

Anyone? Anyone?

[howyadoin]

It's the last time that most of the senior class will be able to celebrate together as a whole. Unless you're some kind of social outcast, it IS important.And what lasting effect, if any, will there be on your life if the school doesn't sponsor the prom and people organize their own gatherings?

[west3man]

This is actually about the topic so...From earlier in the thread:
Quote:
Except PROM! One of the most important parts of the high school experience.

I can't believe how you people think that prom doesn't mean anything.

I reiterate, you people are all crazy.
Does that sound mature to you?

Anyone? Anyone?
"One of the most important partst of the high school experience."
It's an opinion, bu