Batman... a metahuman now ?!

[Absalom]

For those who haven't read Infinite Crisis #1 yet, I suggest you go any further at your own risk.











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In the aforementioned comic, Superman, Diana and Bruce get together in front of what's left of the JLA Watchtower on the friggin' MOON... and Bruce is there, breathing, without any kind of space-suit, space-mask, Green Lantern force-field... absolutely NOTHING... not to mention he also *got there* with the teleporters broken.

Last time I checked, the "Blue Area of the Moon" stuff was a Marvel-only thing.

[Arrjay]

I don't give a hoot about D.C comics so I read your spoiler. All I can say is:

weird!!

[jetter_cheeze]

Mongul got away because the teleporters were still working, so it is convceivable that Batman used one of those as well.

Did you miss the line on the second page where it said "Atmospheric force field closing. Operating at six percent." ? that would explain the being able to breathe.

[Absalom]

The explosion not only destroyed the atmospheric force-field generators, but due to the simple fact of being an *explosion*, should've consumed all the remaining oxygen.

Besides... 6% only ?!? For that huge area the watchtower used to cover, that'd indicate a severe lack of oxygen, even if there was some.

[Absalom]

And, as another poster pointed out on Death-Spiral, Batman got a backhanding from Mongul, a guy on the same strenght-level as Superman.

Shouldn't he be, at least, going back to traction ?

[Chad G.]

And, as another poster pointed out on Death-Spiral, Batman got a backhanding from Mongul, a guy on the same strenght-level as Superman.

Shouldn't he be, at least, going back to traction ?

Look at the beating he took from a Max controlled Supes. He is one tough S.O.B., to say the least. And remember, it IS fiction. ;)

[Bloopinator]

NOOOOOOOO!!! BATMAN CAN'T BE META!!!! *cries* mommy....

[pipalam]

when j'onn was talking about the "threat" that he has been keeping tabs on, I took that as batman.

[d00m]

The explosion not only destroyed the atmospheric force-field generators, but due to the simple fact of being an *explosion*, should've consumed all the remaining oxygen.

Besides... 6% only ?!? For that huge area the watchtower used to cover, that'd indicate a severe lack of oxygen, even if there was some.

Ehhh... probably some power source didn't get a-sploded.
6% is enough for a little while :p
Bats is just lucky Mongol showed up before their oxygen ran out with all the blabbin that was going on between the trinity :D

[palaeomerus]

And, as another poster pointed out on Death-Spiral, Batman got a backhanding from Mongul, a guy on the same strenght-level as Superman.

Shouldn't he be, at least, going back to traction ?

Batman is very good with back injuries.

[Chad G.]

Batman is very good with back injuries.

LOL, very good. I guess he has that down pat, huh? :D

[1HELLBOY]

The 6% thing was the capacity left of the shield. There was plenty of oxygen inside it, or otherwise...ya' know...Batman couldn't breathe.

[Guts/Batman]

The 6% thing was the capacity left of the shield. There was plenty of oxygen inside it, or otherwise...ya' know...Batman couldn't breathe.

Or have any gravity to make him standing on the moon... ;)

How far does the Watchtower's shield extend?

[prand_2002]

Since we are on this subject of Batman being a meta i have a question. Why are the OMACs attacking Batman,Oracle,Nightwing and Robin? I thought OMACs were supposed to eliminate metas and preserve humankind?

[Chad G.]

Since we are on this subject of Batman being a meta i have a question. Why are the OMACs attacking Batman,Oracle,Nightwing and Robin? I thought OMACs were supposed to eliminate metas and preserve humankind?

I think that Brother Eye is trying to eliminate threats to itself. And the Bat family would have to rank very high on that list.

[The Mirrorball Man]

Besides... 6% only ?!? For that huge area the watchtower used to cover, that'd indicate a severe lack of oxygen, even if there was some.
The Batman can hold his breath for three minutes and fifteen seconds. ;)

[1HELLBOY]

I can settle this RIGHT now:


Batman's not a meta. End of story.

[Chad G.]

I can settle this RIGHT now:


Batman's not a meta. End of story.

I've been saying that for weeks now. There is not one shred of proof that Batman is a meta. None. But whenever you ask the staunchest of the supporters that Batman is a meta for proof, the subject changes real quick. Convientm, huh?

Maybe they'll listen to you whereas they haven't me.

Eh, G/B.

[Guts/Batman]

I've been saying that for weeks now. There is not one shred of proof that Batman is a meta. None. But whenever you ask the staunchest of the supporters that Batman is a meta for proof, the subject changes real quick. Convientm, huh?

Maybe they'll listen to you whereas they haven't me.

Eh, G/B.

He isn't a metahuman. He doesn't have the methuman gene. You're right.

But he is too goddamn good right now for me to believe he doesn't have something...extra. Something more than the rest of them.

My suspension of disblief doesn't stretch that far.

As a Rumbler, I find my proof in the stories. Not editors notes and quotes.

As a comparison, Gatts, the Black Swordsman from Berserk, is a human. He has no demon blood that makes him as strong as he is.

However, he is too good, has too much bloodlust, has too much edurance and durability for me to believe that he doesn't have something...extra. Something that makes him better the rest of the "regular" humans in the story.

However, I like both characters. It's just that I find my proof through what happens in the comics. Not through quotes by editors or authors.

[Lester C.]

Unlike Batgirl I don’t think Batman ever been tested for the Metagene so he could be one. Yes, a normal human, over the course of a lifetime, can train to be a great inventor, martial artist, detective, etc but only if they specialize. Bruce is the supreme master in not one but all of these fields. He as smart as Ray Palmer, as good as fighting as Shiva, and can out sleuth anyone in the dcu despite the fact he only spent ten years preparing to becoming Batman. Maybe being a genus can explain his prophecy in one of these areas but not all of them.

Also Bruce isn’t just super smart but also super strong. With the exception of Superman he can beat any Meta out there because he is one.

[Guts/Batman]

Also Bruce isn’t just super smart but also super strong. With the exception of Superman he can beat any Meta out there because he is one.

Without prep, Batman shouldn't be able to do that...

[Lester C.]

Without prep, Batman shouldn't be able to do that...

But he can and I can actually pinpoint when he became a Meta in terms of his godlike abilities. I recently read the second and most recent edition of the greatest Batman stories ever told as well as Tales of the Demon an Denis O’Neal pretty much said that when he and Neal Adams came on board they wanted to take Batman out of the sixty campy era he had been stuck in since the Adam West TV show and turn him into a dark knight who is the embodiment of human achievement.

[Guts/Batman]

But he can and I can actually pinpoint when he became a Meta in terms of his godlike abilities. I recently read the second and most recent edition of the greatest Batman stories ever told as well as Tales of the Demon an Denis O’Neal pretty much said that when he and Neal Adams came on board they wanted to take Batman out of the sixty campy era he had been stuck in since the Adam West TV show and turn him into a dark knight who is the embodiment of human achievement.

I don't think he should be taking out metas without prep. That also stretches my suspension of disbelief too far...

I also think Batman should be taken down a peg or two. He can still be the embodiment of human achievement but he doesn't have to be so good. His screw ups don't and shouldn't be the story (regardless if he was mindwiped or not).

There is a reason why Morrison's Batman was called BatGod. It's because he was borderline metahuman in his abilities.

Essentially Batman's screw ups lately are the basis for the plots in the books in which he stars. There should be stories where his screw ups aren't the story.

[Absalom]

Originally posted by Lester Carthan

Unlike Batgirl I don’t think Batman ever been tested for the Metagene so he could be one. Yes, a normal human, over the course of a lifetime, can train to be a great inventor, martial artist, detective, etc but only if they specialize. Bruce is the supreme master in not one but all of these fields. He as smart as Ray Palmer, as good as fighting as Shiva, and can out sleuth anyone in the dcu despite the fact he only spent ten years preparing to becoming Batman. Maybe being a genus can explain his prophecy in one of these areas but not all of them.

Also Bruce isn’t just super smart but also super strong. With the exception of Superman he can beat any Meta out there because he is one.
Yeah, I mean... c'mon... look at the beating Supes gave him. And he was thinking Batman was Darkseid, so there's no "supes was holding back" stuff.

Superman can pulverize MOUNTAINS, for cryin' out loud.

How many layers of kevlar do y'all think it'd be enough to cover for that ?

[GozertheGozarian]

Batman is at least long lived if not immortal to have had the three to four centuries needed to master one hundred and some different martial arts.

[TheWolfOfAsgard]

Batman is at least long lived if not immortal to have had the three to four centuries needed to master one hundred and some different martial arts.


He uses or has used one of Ras Al Ghul's Lazarus Tanks(?). I think. I remember seeing a comment made in one of the Batman comics.

[orrewhat]

He uses or has used one of Ras Al Ghul's Lazarus Tanks(?). I think. I remember seeing a comment made in one of the Batman comics.


That was my thought also. I hope he's not a Meta but, it would explain alot.

In 10 years we will find out that he is a Alt earth/universe batman with meta powers and the real batman will come back a defeat him.

[Grant]

Metahuman? Pfft... it's obvious Batman is a robot. Stoopid.

[Guts/Batman]

Metahuman? Pfft... it's obvious Batman is a robot. Stoopid.

How could we have missed it? :p

[trickster]

I don't think he should be taking out metas without prep. That also stretches my suspension of disbelief too far...

Has this actually happened?

[trickster]

For those who haven't read Infinite Crisis #1 yet, I suggest you go any further at your own risk.
on the friggin' MOON... and Bruce is there, breathing, without any kind of space-suit, space-mask, Green Lantern force-field... absolutely NOTHING... not to mention he also *got there* with the teleporters broken.

Last time I checked, the "Blue Area of the Moon" stuff was a Marvel-only thing.

Forget it already. There had to be air and there was air on the satellite. The fire was burning, and it was damn bright, and not only that, but if there had been no air, they wouldn't have been able to talk / there is no sound in space because there is no air to propel the sounds. The satellite was still functional to a degree, you could see rays of light, and the computer kept a force field running, which most likely kept the air from dispersing.

[Agent0]

I don't think he should be taking out metas without prep. That also stretches my suspension of disbelief too far...

I disagree. When you consider what Batman is capable of I don't think it goes beyond belief that their are *some* metas he could take down and those he can just down right outsmart.

Now if Batman were somehow taking out villians like Zoom or Black Adam without prep time (or through use of wits) using just his skills and weaponary then you'd have my vote. However, taking out metas or beings like Solomon Grundy or Deathstroke shouldn't be hard to believe as long as he uses very clever battle tactics which he excels at doing.

I also think Batman should be taken down a peg or two. He can still be the embodiment of human achievement but he doesn't have to be so good. His screw ups don't and shouldn't be the story (regardless if he was mindwiped or not).

This year hasn't been enough for you? Superman nearly killing him and beating him up hasn't knocked him down a peg? Hal Jordan decking him doesn't ring a bell? Come on.

I could say Superman doesn't have to be the one to always ultimately save the day for everyone but he's portrayed that way because he's DC's number one. Batman is as good as he is because he HAS to be. If he wasn't then he'd be dead by now with all the threats he battles on a regular basis. Superman or his other super powered friends/allies aren't always there to have his back when he gets into deep trouble.

Look the at the Amazo fight for example. What was Batman suppossed to do there if he wasn't the very capable man he is now? Situations like these happen all the time not to mention the fact that he had an injuried Nightwing to look after in that battle too. Batman is a man who likes to prepare himself for such things in advance because he's experienced things like this too many times to just ignore them. It would be foolish on Batman's part if he wasn't preparing himself in advance to face such threats since he does it regularly anyway.

There is a reason why Morrison's Batman was called BatGod. It's because he was borderline metahuman in his abilities.

No, its because he used prep time more then anything to win. The White Martian event for example is brought up a lot and even there he's shown using prep time after luring them into a trap he's set up for them. Plus, the fact he's human was played up as a big advantage in his favor and its the reason the martians underestimated him to begin with. Batman has always been this brilliant as he was portrayed under Morrison and Waid's writing in JLA most people don't know this.

Essentially Batman's screw ups lately are the basis for the plots in the books in which he stars. There should be stories where his screw ups aren't the story.

Agreed here its getting tiresome these days.

Batman is at least long lived if not immortal to have had the three to four centuries needed to master one hundred and some different martial arts.

Not really he's just an extremely fast learner having developed a photographic memory as a child. It's explained in his origin story that he has a genius for mastering combat techniques due to the great violent nature inside him which is mentioned to Bruce by Kirigi one of his martial art mentors. It's the reason why he's always been the favorite student of every single person he's trained under.

Batman isn't the only one anyway.
Batgirl isn't meta human and she can mimick fighting moves within seconds of reading body language
Richard Dragon is a master of every known martial art style as is Shiva are they metas? Of course not but they're portrayed as skilled as they are to fill a purpose. These 3 btw are the only ones I do consider to be as skilled as Batman as they should be capable of defeating him and vice versa because they're all so close in skill.

[Xero Kaiser]

As a comparison, Gatts, the Black Swordsman from Berserk, is a human. He has no demon blood that makes him as strong as he is.

However, he is too good, has too much bloodlust, has too much edurance and durability for me to believe that he doesn't have something...extra. Something that makes him better the rest of the "regular" humans in the story.


In Guts' defense, the creator of Berserk doesn't go around claiming that Guts is "just a normal guy" and he's never really been presented that way

[Lester C.]

Without prep, Batman shouldn't be able to do that...

For the entirety of Batman and Superman Bruce has had no prep time and yet is taking down metas right and left. Remember when he and Clark took down all those brainwashed super villains like Shiva Mongo, Banshee, etc.

In this post I’m not arguing that DC should make him a Meta because Batman’s appeal is that he is an ordinary human that must fight in a world of supermen and aliens but realistically he is portrayed as a Meta. Don’t ask yourself who has Batman beaten in the DCU but who hasn’t he beaten as that is a much shorter list.

[Guts/Batman]

In Guts' defense, the creator of Berserk doesn't go around claiming that Guts is "just a normal guy" and he's never really been presented that way

That is true...

[Guts/Batman]

This year hasn't been enough for you? Superman nearly killing him and beating him up hasn't knocked him down a peg? Hal Jordan decking him doesn't ring a bell? Come on.

That isn't what I mean when I say "knocked down a peg or two." I mean, he shouldn't be a master (or near a master) of everything as he is currently and still be "regular" human.

That is what stretches my suspension of disbelief too far.

Superman beating his ass doesn't drop him down a peg or two. Hal Jordan punching him for being a dick doesn't drop him down a peg or two.

Bruce earned that punch.

[Guts/Batman]

Has this actually happened?

Shiva
I believe he kicked Captain Marvel through a mountain S/B.
Wasn't getting killed by WW in the "Absolute Power" arc in S/B.
Wasn't being killed by Superman in Hush.
Killer Croc
Didn't die in the first attack by Superman in Sacrifice

Etc...

[Agent0]

That isn't what I mean when I say "knocked down a peg or two." I mean, he shouldn't be a master (or near a master) of everything as he is currently and still be "regular" human.

Huh? Since when is he a master at everything? I wasn't aware he was a master surgeon like Dr. Midnight or an engineer like Steel. He's an expert or well educated in a lot of things but he's certainly not a master at everything as you may believe. He's sought the help from others in areas that he knows he wasn't best at when he needed it on various occassions. I'm not sure what the problem is when he's even acknowledged their are people better then him at different things.

Superman beating his ass doesn't drop him down a peg or two. Hal Jordan punching him for being a dick doesn't drop him down a peg or two.

When you consider the fact that Batman in the past has kicked the crap out of Superman with his gadgets on more then one occassion I'd say it is dropping him down a peg or two in uberness. The same can be said of Jordan when Batman knocked him out in an old brave and bold comic book when he *tried* to stop Batman with his power ring.

Bruce earned that punch.

Oh yes... because putting your hand on someone's shoulder just because you want an explaination from them really earns you a well placed punch to the face. The reasoning behind that punch made zero sense. As does Jordan's reasoning to continue sucker punching anyone and everyone who makes him angry just because they don't agree with him.

[Guts/Batman]

Huh? Since when is he a master at everything? I wasn't aware he was a master surgeon like Dr. Midnight or an engineer like Steel. He's an expert or well educated in a lot of things but he's certainly not a master at everything as you may believe. He's sought the help from others in areas that he knows he wasn't best at when he needed it on various occassions. I'm not sure what the problem is when he's even acknowledged their are people better then him at different things.

At this point it is just implied he is a master or near master level in everything he does.

He admits there are better people at him at things, yes, but he is still a tech god, a MA god, a science god, a psychology god, a sociology god, etc.

He may not be as good as others in those areas but there is not a lot of distinguishable differences between them. There should be a distinguishable difference.

You don't see Superman going to Dr. Mid-nite for autoposies do you or Mr. Terrific for tech help do you?

Dude just looks at a key in B:TAS and automatically knows what building the key is to. WTF?!?!?!?!?!

His mind is so insanely good that it drives my suspension of disblief off the scales.



When you consider the fact that Batman in the past has kicked the crap out of Superman with his gadgets on more then one occassion I'd say it is dropping him down a peg or two in uberness. The same can be said of Jordan when Batman knocked him out in an old brave and bold comic book when he *tried* to stop Batman with his power ring.

His uberness also made an insanely awesome spy satellite that has no equal. He earned that beating IMO.

It didn't drop his uberness down IMO. It only added to it, IMO.

Oh yes... because putting your hand on someone's shoulder just because you want an explaination from them really earns you a well placed punch to the face. The reasoning behind that punch made zero sense. As does Jordan's reasoning to continue sucker punching anyone and everyone who makes him angry just because they don't agree with him.

Hal Jordan's punching people is freaking hilarious.

But on topic, I think an explanation could have waited. I mean they did have a Ganthet/Parallax monster standing not 20 feet away from them. If punching is the quickest way to get down to business then Hal did punch him was justified.

Because Batman was being a dick in that situation...

[Chad G.]

Hal Jordan punching him for being a dick doesn't drop him down a peg or two.

Bruce earned that punch.


Oh yes... because putting your hand on someone's shoulder just because you want an explaination from them really earns you a well placed punch to the face. The reasoning behind that punch made zero sense. As does Jordan's reasoning to continue sucker punching anyone and everyone who makes him angry just because they don't agree with him.

It pains me to admit it, but I straddle the fence on this issue. I will defend Batman to the fullest of my extent. But in that particular instance, I believe that was justified. Batman has ALWAYS all but hated Hal. And Hal damn sure doesn't love him. So I think that was a way of showing that Jordan really was back, so to speak. And yeah, Bruce did earn that punch. Not for laying his hand on his shoulder, but for him bitching throughout the entire series at Hal, and refusing to shut up and listen.

Mother of God. I think I actually just typed something against Bats. I think my hands are burning.

G/B, Alan, enjoy this! :p

[Agent0]

At this point it is just implied he is a master or near master level in everything he does.

Master or expert yes but thats because he spend 10 years of hard training to achieve this goal.

He admits there are better people at him at things, yes, but he is still a tech god, a MA god, a science god, a psychology god, a sociology god, etc.

As long as you're looking at him as some sort of god its no wonder you're having a hard time believing things. It seems you view Batman as a ordinary man with just exceptional detective skills and some fighting capability when he been portrayed as much more then that from the beginning if you take the time to read about how Bruce came to be Batman you'd see that.

He may not be as good as others in those areas but there is not a lot of distinguishable differences between them. There should be a distinguishable difference.

The only reason we can't see a difference is because Batman appears in MUCH more titles each month then other characters who don't have as much time to shine as he does. Thus, his feat list looks much more impressive which makes people like yourself believe such things. We still know for a fact The Atom is a smarter scientist then he is for example although he doesn't have 4 or 5 titles to prove it.

You don't see Superman going to Dr. Mid-nite for autoposies do you or Mr. Terrific for tech help do you?

Superman does go for help when needed in areas that he doesn't have much knowledge or skill in but he does seem to go to Batman more then anyone else just because he's a close friend.

Dude just looks at a key in B:TAS and automatically knows what building the key is to. WTF?!?!?!?!?!

Ever hear of a photographic memory? He has one.

His mind is so insanely good that it drives my suspension of disblief off the scales.

His mind is his true super power its suppossed to be insanely good otherwise he's just some guy in a costume trying to make a difference.

His uberness also made an insanely awesome spy satellite that has no equal. He earned that beating IMO.

A spy satellite that was only meant to monitor and was corrupted by Max Lord who also created the OMACs not Batman. Never mind the fact that somehow they broke through his security (so much for uberness here).

It didn't drop his uberness down IMO. It only added to it, IMO.

I disagree. Especially when you consider that Batman had a near perfect record of embrassing Superman pre-Identity Crisis which is what really kicked all this off with Brad Meltzer admitting that he wanted to knock Batman down a notch or two as you're stating.

Hal Jordan's punching people is freaking hilarious.

That's true I'll admit that but still its getting a little out of hand and I'm afraid that one day that might catch up to one shot Jordan when he tries it on the wrong person then pays for it badly afterwards. I love Hal btw he's my 2nd fav GL next to Kyle.

But on topic, I think an explanation could have waited. I mean they did have a Ganthet/Parallax monster standing not 20 feet away from them. If punching is the quickest way to get down to business then Hal did punch him was justified.

Why not just place him in a bubble or in a straightjacket (if he wanted to be funny)? It's not like it would've taken a lot of willpower to do this either we both know it would've taken mere seconds to do this. Instead, Jordan decided to make things personal with a punch and flew off afterwards. Was Batman that big of a threat that he had to take the time to express his anger towards him a man who btw he took part in mindwiping and once called a good friend. All he really had to do to begin with is fly off and ignore Batman altogether anyway.

Because Batman was being a dick in that situation...

Batman's been a dick since Post-Crisis began doesn't mean Jordan was right to hit the man. But I am looking forward to seeing Batman's mean attutide being tonned down.

[Agent0]

Batman has ALWAYS all but hated Hal. And Hal damn sure doesn't love him

Not true. They were good friends up until the point when Hal became Parallax thats when the mistrust came in. Even afterwards, in JLA Soul War we saw that Batman forgave Hal and became friends with him again. The events leading up to rebirth however re-established this mistrust of Hal as you can read in Flash and Rebirth itself which was explained by Batman.

[Guts/Batman]

Master or expert yes but thats because he spend 10 years of hard training to achieve this goal.

Well, yes, he has been training for 10 years. But, it takes 10 years to master these things individually, let alone mastering all of them.

Even if he does only get 1 hour of sleep a night, that is still crazy insane.

And for a person to master the things that he has and still have room for Bruce Wayne to be a billionaire playboy and fight crime as Batman is also crazy insane.

I realize these are comics but he comes from the more realistic section of DCU currently. He should reflect that section more the unrealistic section.

As long as you're looking at him as some sort of god its no wonder you're having a hard time believing things. It seems you view Batman as a ordinary man with just exceptional detective skills and some fighting capability when he been portrayed as much more then that from the beginning if you take the time to read about how Bruce came to be Batman you'd see that.

I look at him as a god because that's what the writers have made him. They have made him into BatGod, BatDick rolled into one. It is everything but Batman right now.

He's too much of a paranoid, controlling asshole (how he got there is a different argument all together). He's too...good.

In addition, my suspension of disbelief when it comes to the Bat-family is generally shorter than it is for Superman, WW, Martian Manhunter and especially the Flash because they come from the more unrealistic part of DCU.

It just is.

I can accept it if he has a photographic memory. I can accept it if he is one the best detective's in the world. I can accept if he is one of DCU's best martial artists. I can accept it if he is a master of psychology.

But there are just too many add-ons right now.

Peak of human achievement is one thing. Being a freaking human god is quite another.

[Chad G.]

Not true. They were good friends up until the point when Hal became Parallax thats when the mistrust came in. Even afterwards, in JLA Soul War we saw that Batman forgave Hal and became friends with him again. The events leading up to rebirth however re-established this mistrust of Hal as you can read in Flash and Rebirth itself which was explained by Batman.

You're preaching Bats side, but make sure that one thing is clear. Batman has no friends. None. Not right now. He has teammates(lol) and people he has professional dealings with. But he doesn;t have what would typically be called "friends". And even so, I don't think that Hal and Bruce have ever been chummy. Hal won't take any of Bruces normal crap, which pisses Bats off no end.

[Chad G.]

Why not just place him in a bubble or in a straightjacket (if he wanted to be funny)? It's not like it would've taken a lot of willpower to do this either we both know it would've taken mere seconds to do this. Instead, Jordan decided to make things personal with a punch and flew off afterwards. Was Batman that big of a threat that he had to take the time to express his anger towards him a man who btw he took part in mindwiping and once called a good friend. All he really had to do to begin with is fly off and ignore Batman altogether anyway.


Can you imagine just how pissed Bats would have been if Jordan had put him in a ring bubble. I mean really. It would have been utility belt time.

[Guts/Batman]

Can you imagine just how pissed Bats would have been if Jordan had put him in a ring bubble. I mean really. It would have been utility belt time.

Plus that is a complete waste of time in the situation they were in. Punching was the quickest way to resolve the situation.

That situation was not the most ideal for demanding an explanation.

He punched the dude in GL #3 because he was keeping him from chasing after the Manhunter.

That punch was justified.

[trickster]

Punching was the quickest way to resolve the situation.


There's always another way. Oh wait, people only say that when it suits them.

[1HELLBOY]

I thought I settled this thread already.


Batman isn't a meta. He's a genius. That's how he's able to defeat these extremely strong people. Everybody has there weaknesses, and Batman knows them. Even Batman has his weaknesses. 1. He's human, which is a big draw back.


He doesn't need prep time. He's already had it. You learn the best from experience. He uses his mind to take control of every situation he's in. Yes, he's human and he makes mistakes which has been demonstrated almost into the ground lately.

Batman is not a meta. End. Of. Story.

[Guts/Batman]

There's always another way. Oh wait, people only say that when it suits them.

Of course, there was.

There's always other ways. But it wouldn't have been as funny...

[Guts/Batman]

I thought I settled this thread already.


Batman isn't a meta. He's a genius. That's how he's able to defeat these extremely strong people. Everybody has there weaknesses, and Batman knows them. Even Batman has his weaknesses. 1. He's human, which is a big draw back.


He doesn't need prep time. He's already had it. You learn the best from experience. He uses his mind to take control of every situation he's in. Yes, he's human and he makes mistakes which has been demonstrated almost into the ground lately.

Batman is not a meta. End. Of. Story.

You're right, he isn't metahuman.

But I don't believe DC anymore...

[Chad G.]

You're right, he isn't metahuman.


You DO know I'm gonna quote you on that next time you take of on one of your wild Bats is a meta tangents don't you Guts. :p

[Guts/Batman]

You DO know I'm gonna quote you on that next time you take of on one of your wild Bats is a meta tangents don't you Guts. :p

Technically he isn't a metahuman. He doesn't have the metahuman gene. I have said this on many occasions. This isn't the first time I haven't seid he isn't a metahuman. ;)

But until DC starts to write him less insanely near human god status, I will say that he still insanely too good.

[Chad G.]

Technically he isn't a metahuman. He doesn't have the metahuman gene. I have said this on many occasions. This isn't the first time I haven't seid he isn't a metahuman. ;)

But until DC starts to write him less insanely near human god status, I will say that he still insanely too good.

Fair enough. :)

[Forsaken_One]

DC's problem, and this is a problem with any comic book really, is that the humans don't scale well. Batman is human in stories that star only Batman. When he's dealing with an insane clown or a psychotic doctor obsessed with fear or a mass murderer with a penchant for riddles Batman is human. He makes human errors, does human feats, and so on.

But then you get Batman into the company of the superhuman. He's in the Justice League or he's center stage in a massive company-wide crossover or whatnot. And to get out of these situations Batman can't be what we think of as human, even a very intelligent human. He has to be something more, even if they maintain that he's human.

But really, why focus on Batman for this feat? Sure he's among the most popular "only human" character but he's hardly the only human who becomes something more in the company of supers. Look at Batman's apprentices, Nightwing and Robin, become a lot more skilled when they enter into a team enviornment with superpowered heros. In their own comic they're good but not great, they can manage but still get beat up. Come Teen Titans or Outsiders suddenly Dick is the master detective with access to technology even the government doesn't have who also never gets hurt while Tim is the self-assured genius who can hack into systems, has a DNA sequencer on his freaking laptop, and can still spar with major magical forces with only light wounds.

Or take a look at Mister Terrific, a supposedly normal human who somehow managed to get several PhDs and doctorates, invented globes that do a vast array of tricks, keeps in peak physical shape, knows multiple fighting styles, created nanites that block out all electronic transmissions, and basically does whatever else the plot dictates. And you could toss Doctor Midnight, in the same team, as one as well. He's a supposed human who has multiple professions and is in peak condition and fights extremely well and more as the story goes on. Green Arrow seems to have a huge boost to his ability to shoot things and the power and effectiveness of his arrows against supers whenever he's in JL:Elite or the JLA.

This isn't limited to DC either, just look at the "genius" humans of the Marvel universe. We could look at Mr. Fantastic's intelligence, supposedly not changed by his transformation, and the amazing technology he can just pull out of nowhere when the story needs it. Tony Stark can do the same thing, inventing new kinds of Iron Man suits pretty much all by himself, suits far and away above the technology of the average citizen of the MU. The Punisher is widely touted as just a man but for all his scars he's shown as not only posessing the ability to walk through hails of bullets without problems but also figure out almost every possibility in a battle and only shoot the criminals, never an innocent.

You want a normal Batman? You want human characters to really be human? Well then they pretty much have to stay in their own little universe and not interact with the powered up characters of any given universe. Now if Superman was at his original power level, able to leap tall buildings only and able to survive up to an exploding shell, it'd be another story. But considering Superman just keeps on getting more and more powerful in the days since CoIE the überbat isn't going anywhere.

[Thrice]

Stupidest thread ever. SO the writer didnot pay attention to ever single exact law of science. He took some artistic lincense. NO Batman is not Meta. The explanation the writer gives is there was a containtment bubble around the wreakage and that is why he was able to breath. Wheather that is feasible or not in real life does not matter this is not real life.

[Absalom]

Originally posted by Forsaken_One

DC's problem, and this is a problem with any comic book really, is that the humans don't scale well. Batman is human in stories that star only Batman. When he's dealing with an insane clown or a psychotic doctor obsessed with fear or a mass murderer with a penchant for riddles Batman is human. He makes human errors, does human feats, and so on.

But then you get Batman into the company of the superhuman. He's in the Justice League or he's center stage in a massive company-wide crossover or whatnot. And to get out of these situations Batman can't be what we think of as human, even a very intelligent human. He has to be something more, even if they maintain that he's human.

But really, why focus on Batman for this feat? Sure he's among the most popular "only human" character but he's hardly the only human who becomes something more in the company of supers. Look at Batman's apprentices, Nightwing and Robin, become a lot more skilled when they enter into a team enviornment with superpowered heros. In their own comic they're good but not great, they can manage but still get beat up. Come Teen Titans or Outsiders suddenly Dick is the master detective with access to technology even the government doesn't have who also never gets hurt while Tim is the self-assured genius who can hack into systems, has a DNA sequencer on his freaking laptop, and can still spar with major magical forces with only light wounds.

Or take a look at Mister Terrific, a supposedly normal human who somehow managed to get several PhDs and doctorates, invented globes that do a vast array of tricks, keeps in peak physical shape, knows multiple fighting styles, created nanites that block out all electronic transmissions, and basically does whatever else the plot dictates. And you could toss Doctor Midnight, in the same team, as one as well. He's a supposed human who has multiple professions and is in peak condition and fights extremely well and more as the story goes on. Green Arrow seems to have a huge boost to his ability to shoot things and the power and effectiveness of his arrows against supers whenever he's in JL:Elite or the JLA.

This isn't limited to DC either, just look at the "genius" humans of the Marvel universe. We could look at Mr. Fantastic's intelligence, supposedly not changed by his transformation, and the amazing technology he can just pull out of nowhere when the story needs it. Tony Stark can do the same thing, inventing new kinds of Iron Man suits pretty much all by himself, suits far and away above the technology of the average citizen of the MU. The Punisher is widely touted as just a man but for all his scars he's shown as not only posessing the ability to walk through hails of bullets without problems but also figure out almost every possibility in a battle and only shoot the criminals, never an innocent.
I think you have answered your own question here.

Even if Reed Richards, Punisher or Mr. Terrific go beyond what we'd call "human level" (and, for comics, we have to take that term with a grain of salt), they only appear in their usual books. You'll usually find Richards only in a F4 issue, Terrific in a JSA issue, or Punisher in his own comic. And even if they guest-star in someone else's book, they're usually portrayed at the same level.

We have always seen Reed and Terrific operate at those high-end levels of intelligence, because they're always portrayed as super-geniuses.

Now, for Batman, we have a character that every month appear in many books, with a portrayal in one, and another portrayal on the other that's contradictory to the first. And then, the company keeps telling us that both showings (the high-end and the low-end) happened in the very same universe, with the very same character.

[Lester C.]

I thought I settled this thread already.


Batman isn't a meta. He's a genius. That's how he's able to defeat these extremely strong people. Everybody has there weaknesses, and Batman knows them. Even Batman has his weaknesses. 1. He's human, which is a big draw back.


A person that has been labeled a Genius is very, very good in one specific field like mathematics. Bruce is a genius in all areas of human development and this fact alone would qualify him as a Meta. Now add that to his many superhuman feats he exhibited in various DC books and you’d be hard pressed to argue that he is a normal human being.

[FearsomeFlyingGlove]

Can you imagine just how pissed Bats would have been if Jordan had put him in a ring bubble. I mean really. It would have been utility belt time.

"Is that a Yellow Fear Monster in your Utility Belt or are you just happy to see me?"

[Viking Bastard]

Or have any gravity to make him standing on the moon... ;) It's the moon. It has plenty of gravity. Just not as much as Earth.

But he's not going to just float away.

[SdotCopp]

i agree with most of what forsaken_one said. it's also why i thoroughly enjoy batman-only stories over ones that involve meta-heros from the DCU. i honestly would be perfectly happy if batman and batman related characters existed in a purely non-meta universe

[1HELLBOY]

A person that has been labeled a Genius is very, very good in one specific field like mathematics. Bruce is a genius in all areas of human development and this fact alone would qualify him as a Meta. Now add that to his many superhuman feats he exhibited in various DC books and you’d be hard pressed to argue that he is a normal human being.



What superhuman feats? Has he ever lifted a mountain? Has he ever dropped a building on someone? Has he ever flew into space without any kind of protection? Has he ever beat down someone like Mongul with his bare hands? No, no, no, no. He is not a meta. He's a human being that uses his wits and genius. Yes, he's very, very smart becuase he's worked hard at it. For 10 goddamn years and maybe even more has he been working at it. He's richer than freaking God so that contributes a lot to it. And becuase he's richer than freaking God, that made it possible for him to travel the world, learn from the greatest minds in martial arts, detecting, and criminology. He's also had teachings from most of the JLAers. Zatara and Zatanna, Green Arrow, Mister Miracle and I'm sure from many, many more. Now for somebody to say that he's a freaking meta like many here in this thread and this board, absolutely sickens me. He's not a goddamn meta. Leave it it that.

[Agent0]

Well, yes, he has been training for 10 years. But, it takes 10 years to master these things individually, let alone mastering all of them.

Even if he does only get 1 hour of sleep a night, that is still crazy insane.

And for a person to master the things that he has and still have room for Bruce Wayne to be a billionaire playboy and fight crime as Batman is also crazy insane.

I realize these are comics but he comes from the more realistic section of DCU currently. He should reflect that section more the unrealistic section.

You don't get it... Bruce Wayne/Batman is NOT a normal human being he never really has been ever since the murder of his parents he was obsessed to become the best he could training endlessly to gain the skills nessecary to become the bat. But he's not a meta human either he's the best of a what human being could be in a *fictional world* if a person trained hard enough.

In his origin story as a child we saw him develop a photographic memory and speed reading ability that enabled him to learn things very quickly as he breezed through college at an extremely fast rate. Among other things, even in Year One alone we saw him: kicking down trees, putting his hands through bricks, punching a man through a brick wall, outsmarting the GCPD, and establishing his scary urban myth. All this is explained if you actually took the time to read about his background.

I look at him as a god because that's what the writers have made him. They have made him into BatGod, BatDick rolled into one. It is everything but Batman right now.

He's too much of a paranoid, controlling asshole (how he got there is a different argument all together). He's too...good.

Okay, the point of him being a dick arguement I'll give you since their is no excuse for that and I too would like to see that change. But the whole batgod myth as people say is ridiculous. You're speaking about him as if he's never lost a fight or always has the answer to every single problem when DC especially this past year alone has never portrayed him that way.

In addition, my suspension of disbelief when it comes to the Bat-family is generally shorter than it is for Superman, WW, Martian Manhunter and especially the Flash because they come from the more unrealistic part of DCU.

Are you kidding? With Batman living in a world with beings like those how do you expect him to be apart of a powerful group like the JLA? Just having exceptional detective skills alone is a role that J'onn can fill so what exactly do you think he would be bring to the group? Again, Batman is as good as he is because he HAS to be a step ahead of his teammates how else would he survive the threats he battles on a regular basis. Even in his own rogues gallery he has metas/super powered foes like Clayface (their are 5 or 6 of em), Spellbinder, and Scarebeast.

I can accept it if he has a photographic memory. I can accept it if he is one the best detective's in the world. I can accept if he is one of DCU's best martial artists. I can accept it if he is a master of psychology. But there are just too many add-ons right now.

What makes him special (ability wise) is that he's a "jack of all trades" but not the best at everything. This doesn't change the fact that he still gets help from other people when needed as he would go to Oracle if he wanted to hack into a database or let Nightwing lead the Outsiders and Titans to victory because he knows he a better leader (being more of people person). Could he do those things alone? Of course but if he wants it done to perfection he goes to the absolute best something he still does.

Peak of human achievement is one thing. Being a freaking human god is quite another.

A human god who has only had his back broken by Bane, was nearly crippled by Hush, has shown to have weak security measures, made a huge mistake letting Jean Paul Valley take over as Batman, has been outsmarted by a much more improved Riddler not to long ago (for once), Ra's Al Ghul consistently being a step ahead of him, and not being able to always stop the Joker from hurting or killing someone close to him.

Doesn't sound like the untouchable all knowing god your talking about to me. The guy you speak of sounds like a myth and this year alone definitely shows us this.

[Agent0]

You're preaching Bats side, but make sure that one thing is clear. Batman has no friends. None. Not right now. He has teammates(lol) and people he has professional dealings with. But he doesn;t have what would typically be called "friends". And even so, I don't think that Hal and Bruce have ever been chummy. Hal won't take any of Bruces normal crap, which pisses Bats off no end.

Why would you think this? Just because Batman's a dick doesn't mean he doesn't have friends.

In Superman Batman alone we see that Clark and Bruce are closer friends then they care to admit as they know each other very well. In Gotham Knights, we've seen Batman invite Aquaman over to hang out although he tries to cover it up. In JSA, we've seen him befriend Mr. Terrific and Alan Scott (who was his idol growing up). He's always considered J'onn to be a good friend who he can relate to and admires for his mind. We all know how the former relationship between him and Diana was too.

If anything changed its ONLY because Infinite Crisis made it that way. Must people know Batman's a dick but they can see through it as Hal was able to as explained in Soul War.

Speaking of which, contray to popular belief, Hal and Batman were good friends as you could see way back in the old Justice League comics. This is especially made clear when Batman recruited Hal to lead the JLA in his place after he left because he felt Hal would be best suited to lead them.

[Lester C.]

Doesn't sound like the untouchable all knowing god your talking about to me. The guy you speak of sounds like a myth and this year alone definitely shows us this.

All the stuff that happened to Batman in the past two years was the result of Batman’s godlike abilities and technology being usurped by lowly fallible mortals like Max Lord and Stephanie Brown. All of the deaths that people could attribute to Batman were made by others perverting and misinterpreting His will.

[Agent0]

Can you imagine just how pissed Bats would have been if Jordan had put him in a ring bubble. I mean really. It would have been utility belt time.

So you consider a punch to the face less insulting then putting him in a painless bubble? I don't get that. By the time Batman would've gotten out of the bubble, Hal and the other GLs would've already gone to work on defeating Parallax in which case Alan and Jade would've still stopped Batman the rest of the heroes from interfering anyway.

[Chad G.]

"Is that a Yellow Fear Monster in your Utility Belt or are you just happy to see me?"

No doubt.

:p

So you consider a punch to the face less insulting then putting him in a painless bubble? I don't get that. By the time Batman would've gotten out of the bubble, Hal and the other GLs would've already gone to work on defeating Parallax in which case Alan and Jade would've still stopped Batman the rest of the heroes from interfering anyway.

You know, I am one of the biggest Batman fans out there, but even I see how we can go too far. The punch was meant too, wait for it, move the story along. It was a bit of a demonstration of cocky ass Hal being back. If he had put Bruce in a bubble, it would have been just like admitting that he was covering something up. You know, it WAS a Green Lantern comic about Hals return. I think they are going to write him favorably.

[Chad G.]

Why would you think this? Just because Batman's a dick doesn't mean he doesn't have friends.

In Superman Batman alone we see that Clark and Bruce are closer friends then they care to admit as they know each other very well. In Gotham Knights, we've seen Batman invite Aquaman over to hang out although he tries to cover it up. In JSA, we've seen him befriend Mr. Terrific and Alan Scott (who was his idol growing up). He's always considered J'onn to be a good friend who he can relate to and admires for his mind. We all know how the former relationship between him and Diana was too.

If anything changed it ONLY because of Infinite Crisis made it that way. Must people know Batman's a dick but they can see through it as Hal was able to as explained in Soul War.

Speaking of which, contray to popular belief, Hal and Batman were good friends as you could see way back in the old Justice League comics. This is especially made clear when Batman recruited Hal to lead the JLA in his place after he left because he felt Hal would be best suited to lead them.

Keu words in that. Old Justice League comics. That means they are old. That means that things aren't like that anymore. IF Hal and Bruce could beat the sh*t out of each other, and not have any fallout from it, it would sooooo happen in a heartbeat. And no Batman has no friends. While I may love S/B, it doesn't the most accurate portrayl of how current Batman handles relationships(and no Jobberseid cracks Guts, :p ). Batman has no friends right now. He trusts no one.

[Lester C.]

What superhuman feats? Has he ever lifted a mountain? Has he ever dropped a building on someone? Has he ever flew into space without any kind of protection? Has he ever beat down someone like Mongul with his bare hands? No, no, no, no. He is not a meta. He's a human being that uses his wits and genius. Yes, he's very, very smart becuase he's worked hard at it. For 10 goddamn years and maybe even more has he been working at it. He's richer than freaking God so that contributes a lot to it. And becuase he's richer than freaking God, that made it possible for him to travel the world, learn from the greatest minds in martial arts, detecting, and criminology. He's also had teachings from most of the JLAers. Zatara and Zatanna, Green Arrow, Mister Miracle and I'm sure from many, many more. Now for somebody to say that he's a freaking meta like many here in this thread and this board, absolutely sickens me. He's not a goddamn meta. Leave it it that.

I wish to God I had a scanner because I have two big dressers full of Batman engaging in blatant acts of superhuman strength, speed, and agility. If DC were honest with us Batman strength level would be comparable to pre Rucka Wonder Woman because Bruce was the only one in the DCU that could take her in a fair fight besides Superman. He even took down The Incredible Hulk.

I agree with you it would ruin the character if DC officially classified him as a Meta but if they stopped portraying Bruce as Batgod he would no longer be able to function as a guest star in books that take place outside of Bat books. This would be very bad for sales so my prediction is while Batdick may die after IC BatGod is here to stay.

[xandertheill]

ummm there is never any reason for bats to be caught off guard EVER (unless it is by a new meta) .... he had a satellite that watched all of them. & if they're hero's he's worked with them so he knows their strenghs and weakness.... besides lets be honest a lot of metas arent that advanced in terms of powers.


oh yeah and he's never been afraid to run away from an unfavorable situation. like in hush.

now on the tech.... he doesn't build the tech we may never know if he even designs it himself he may just tell people what he needs it to do most recently it was that harold guy & now the new toyman... stop trying to hate on batman lmao let him do the damn thing

on the detective skills.... all it takes is a good attention to detail... my mom was a better detective than batman hahahaa. she knew everything...... wait maybe she had a spy satellite in our house.

[Agent0]

Key words in that. Old Justice League comics. That means they are old. That means that things aren't like that anymore.

But you said:

And even so, I don't think that Hal and Bruce have ever been chummy.

I was merely correcting you on that by proving that they were friends at one point and that Hal did in fact LIKE Batman and think the most about him more then any other leaguer and vice versa for Batman.

IF Hal and Bruce could beat the sh*t out of each other, and not have any fallout from it, it would sooooo happen in a heartbeat

It's happened before when Batman knocked Hal out in a old Brave and the Bold comic after a disagreement and they still were friends by the end. The reason Batman doesn't trust Hal is because he did 3 things leading up to Rebirth that re-established his mistrust in him which written by Geoff Johns no less.

And no Batman has no friends. While I may love S/B, it doesn't the most accurate portrayl of how current Batman handles relationships(and no Jobberseid cracks Guts, ). Batman has no friends right now. He trusts no one.

Strongly disagree. How could Batman not trust anyone and work with the JLA? How could Batman share how he feels to J'onn without kicking him out of his batcave at the end of the Crisis of Conscience story arc? Doesn't sound like a friendless guy to me. He's a dick but he does trust people contray to belief.

Otherwise, what are Nightwing, Alfred, Robin, Batgirl, and Oracle for? He wouldn't share his secrets with them unless he trusted them obviously.

[Chad G.]

I dont' know whether Hellboy or I are going to have a stroke first from this thread. Batman is not a Meta. Period. None of you who are preaching this can prove it. NONE. OF. YOU. You cannot show me where one writer has ever said he is. Batman is the pinnacle of what a human can aspire too. Who the hell wants to see Bruce come home from a hard night of fighting crime, and have Alfred make him a wonderful glass of Alka Seltzer Plus Cold for that nasty congestion he has. Not me. I don't want Batman to be like me. I don't want to see him be limited in what we can do. He is the ultimate. That one word sums it up. I don't want to see Batman sit there and go, "Oh well, I can't figure this out. Better call Ray Palmer". When someone can show me where Rucka, or Morrison, or Loeb, or essentially any freaking writer has called Bats a meta, please, show me. I'll shut the hell up. Until then...

Pull yours heads out of your asses and act halfway intelligent.

[Agent0]

You know, I am one of the biggest Batman fans out there, but even I see how we can go too far. The punch was meant too, wait for it, move the story along. It was a bit of a demonstration of cocky ass Hal being back. If he had put Bruce in a bubble, it would have been just like admitting that he was covering something up. You know, it WAS a Green Lantern comic about Hals return. I think they are going to write him favorably

I don't have a problem with the punch itself I can handle Batman being punched (I mean if Black Mask can give him a good fight in War Games why not Hal right?). What I can't handle is the REASONING behind it and their was none it was simply put their to make Hal look cool and it succeeded but it still had no point.

[Chad G.]

But you said:

And even so, I don't think that Hal and Bruce have ever been chummy.

I was merely correcting you on that by proving that they were friends at one point and that Hal did in fact LIKE Batman and think the most about him more then any other leaguer and vice versa for Batman.



It's happened before when Batman knocked Hal out in a old Brave and the Bold comic after a disagreement and they still were friends by the end. The reason Batman doesn't trust Hal is because he did 3 things leading up to Rebirth that re-established his mistrust in him which written by Geoff Johns no less.



Strongly disagree. How could Batman not trust anyone and work with the JLA? How could Batman share how he feels to J'onn without kicking him out of his batcave at the end of the Crisis of Conscience story arc? Doesn't sound like a friendless guy to me. He's a dick but he does trust people contray to belief.

Otherwise, what are Nightwing, Alfred, Robin, Batgirl, and Oracle for? He wouldn't share his secrets with them unless he trusted them obviously.

I prefer to deal with the here and now. Not the dead and gone. Batman has little use for Hal right now. Thanks for keying me in on that. Next time I'm up for a history lesson, I'll ask for it.

And as far as the "friends" issue. Are you really telliing everyone on the board that Bats right now just wants to have a good 'ol game of poker with everybody. Thats what stuff like this sounds like to me:

we've seen Batman invite Aquaman over to hang out although he tries to cover it up. In JSA, we've seen him befriend Mr. Terrific and Alan Scott

ANd working with the JLA. Batman barely answers when they call him. Batman and the JLA are not on the best of terms right now. And in his defense, rightly so. But he is not chummy with any of them. And I hardly think that he and J'onn were having an Oprah moment. And as far as the rest of the Bat family. They are useful to Batman, and he would go through hell for them. But as Bats is currently being written, they are co-workers, nothing more. Batman has major trust issues, and I don't blame him

[Agent0]

I prefer to deal with the here and now. Not the dead and gone. Batman has little use for Hal right now. Thanks for keying me in on that. Next time I'm up for a history lesson, I'll ask for it.

When did I say Hal and Batman are friends at the present time? I don't recall stating this. I do recall saying that they *were* friends something you thought they never were.

And as far as the "friends" issue. Are you really telliing everyone on the board that Bats right now just wants to have a good 'ol game of poker with everybody. Thats what stuff like this sounds like to me:

Huh? I'm the same guy admitting that Batman is indeed a dick none the less I'm not suggesting he gets along with everyone as you may think. What I'm saying is that he does have friends and that he does trust people contray to what you may believe. If Batman were such a untrusting lone wolf what would be the point of working with teams? He's had more partners/protege's then Superman and he doesn't trust people? Come on.

ANd working with the JLA. Batman barely answers when they call him. Batman and the JLA are not on the best of terms right now. And in his defense, rightly so.

Yes right NOW due to the Crisis I'm not overlooking that. This doesn't mean he hasn't worked well them at all when history has shown he has.

But he is not chummy with any of them. And I hardly think that he and J'onn were having an Oprah moment.

Somehow I don't think Batman's the kind of guy who shares his inner thoughts with just anyone being the big batfans we both are we should know that. That's not to say Batman's a big softy just because the man can share how he feels with *gasp* an actual friend which J'onn is. Otherwise, he would've kicked him out as soon as he detected him in his batcave.

And as far as the rest of the Bat family. They are useful to Batman, and he would go through hell for them. But as Bats is currently being written, they are co-workers, nothing more. Batman has major trust issues, and I don't blame him

You don't think Nightwing and Tim aren't like sons to him? Or Cassie and Babs like his daughters who he overprotects? Alfred who he looks as his wise father figure at times for advice? Or Leslie who he USED to consider like a mother up until War Crimes? He's shown these feelings for his family time and time again. Batman's not some unemotional monster who only cares about getting the job done he actually does care about people especially those close to him. Otherwise, he'd work alone.

[FearsomeFlyingGlove]

He even took down The Incredible Hulk.

I have an early Marvel Two-In-One, I think issue 3, maybe, in which IIRC Daredevil is fighting the Thing. Ben picks up DD by his costume in the back, and DD thinks to himself "If I give it all I have, I can kick Ben right in the solar plexis and maybe knock him out!"

The next panel has DD doing it accompanied by a huge sound effect covering up Ben.

The panel after that has Ben still standing in the exact same position, still holding DD and saying something like "Finished yet?"

Something like that should be happening to Batman far more often than it does.

[Agent0]

Why would anyone take Marvel/DC crossovers seriously? Obviously Batman shouldn't have defeated the Hulk the way he did no batfan in their right mind would actually think this.

[Chad G.]

When did I say Hal and Batman are friends at the present time? I don't recall stating this. I do recall saying that they *were* friends something you thought they never were.



Huh? I'm the same guy admitting that Batman is indeed a dick none the less I'm not suggesting he gets along with everyone as you may think. What I'm saying is that he does have friends and that he does trust people contray to what you may believe. If Batman were such a untrusting lone wolf what would be the point of working with teams? He's had more partners/protege's then Superman and he doesn't trust people? Come on.



Yes right NOW due to the Crisis I'm not overlooking that. This doesn't mean he hasn't worked well them at all when history has shown he has.



Somehow I don't think Batman's the kind of guy who shares his inner thoughts with just anyone being the big batfans we both are we should know that. That's not to say Batman's a big softy just because the man can share how he feels with *gasp* an actual friend which J'onn is. Otherwise, he would've kicked him out as soon as he detected him in his batcave.



You don't think Nightwing and Tim aren't like sons to him? Or Cassie and Babs like his daughters who he overprotects? Alfred who he looks as his wise father figure at times for advice? Or Leslie who he USED to consider like a mother up until War Crimes? He's shown these feelings for his family time and time again. Batman's not some unemotional monster who only cares about getting the job done he actually does care about people especially those close to him. Otherwise, he'd work alone.

Now I know how Guts and Alan feel arguing with me. Sometimes I just don't have the sense to shut up.

So the point you are trying to make is that Bats is a big softy, wants to hug, be a father figure, and be a friend to all. :D I needed that. Right now, Batman is a cold and unemotional character, who prefers to get the job done, and thats just how I like him. And right now, Bats is just sitting there in his own private hell, wondering who will be the next one to betray him. And until the writers decide to change that, thats how he is going to stay. Stop trying to dwell in the past.

[Chad G.]

Why would anyone take Marvel/DC crossovers seriously? Obviously Batman shouldn't have defeated the Hulk the way he did no batfan in their right mind would actually think this.

You mean you're not going to defend that one. I'm shocked Agent. I really am. :rolleyes:

[Oracle_0128]

Maybe he has on his Space Batsuit? :rolleyes:

[Agent0]

Now I know how Guts and Alan feel arguing with me. Sometimes I just don't have the sense to shut up.

Wow, that's offensive considering I'm not a bathater neither am I disrespecting you in anyway. That's pretty low as a matter of fact.

So the point you are trying to make is that Bats is a big softy, wants to hug, be a father figure, and be a friend to all. I needed that. Right now, Batman is a cold and unemotional character, who prefers to get the job done, and thats just how I like him.

No the point I'm making is that Batman is NOT a cold hearted monster who only cares about getting the job done. His mission is to SAVE people its not about vengeance it about preventing what happened to him as child from happening to others. Furthermore, Batman is still a man so him showing emotion to those who are close him is doesn't make him weak it makes him... wait for it.... HUMAN. There I said it :eek:

And right now, Bats is just sitting there in his own private hell, wondering who will be the next one to betray him. And until the writers decide to change that, thats how he is going to stay. Stop trying to dwell in the past.

The past? Have you been keeping up with Batman appearances/comics lately? The last time him and Nightwing teamed up in Batman 636 he was written more human and likeable then he has been in a long time. Batman himself even mentions how he missed the old days teaming up with Dick and how they were much more simple for both of them. Then theirs Birds of Prey where Gail Simone has written a caring and father like Batman who looks after his own. These issues were very recent so I don't know what you're talking about when you say the past. This is who Batman is at the CORE of his character but that doesn't change the fact that yes he is still a dick.

[Agent0]

You mean you're not going to defend that one. I'm shocked Agent. I really am.

Why should you be? Marvel/DC crossovers are a joke to me. Despite what you may think of me currently I'm not one of those batfans who believes everything the writers put out. I know what Batman should or shouldn't be capable of going by how he's been portrayed consistently since the post-crisis era began. Batman defeating the Hulk the way he did was unbelievable equally as much as Superman being beaten down by Venom in Marvel/DC All Access.

What I'd like to know is why you'd think this about me to begin with anyway?

[FearsomeFlyingGlove]

I know Hal and Bruce USED to be friends.

This is from World's Finest 180. Yes, it is an Imaginary Story, in which Superman is made permanently powerless, and becomes "Nova". In the course of the story, criminals who discover Nova is really Superman place a bug in his neck, and they trace it to the Batcave when Kal walks in, and discover that Bruce Wayne is Batman.



Rather amusing how far they have come.

[Chad G.]

What I'd like to know is why you'd think this about me to begin with anyway?

I'll be blunt. Real blunt. And I don't need to have so much fun with the quote button to do it.

Batman is my favorite character hands down. No one else is near enough to be considered second. But I don't making any foolish pretense of him being some great humanitarian who wants nothing but to sit around and bake cookies with the Bat Family, or visit J'onn for a free psych exam. Batman is a loner. Now that is a very hard term to define. Yes, he has had the Robins, and yes, he has the Bat family. But Bruce is at his best when he is the lone wolf, free to do what needs to be done. I highly doubt that he has some pretense of being a father figure to the others, or wants to really hang out with Aquaman or John. What great friend tells his "best" friend that the last time they inspired anyone was when they were dead.

I will defend like a madman most points regarding Batman. People who say he is crazy or is just acting like a child can kiss my a$$. He was mind raped. PERIOD. He was betrayed by the people he should have been able to trust with his life. Batman is written as a dick right now. I'm fine with that too. Changes the dynamics of every situation he is involved in. But Batman is not the worlds greatest team player. And never will be. He is an awesome character, but for the most part works best by himself. So drop the subject, and lay off my viewpoint. I don't need my posts disected bit by bit from you in the hope that I will learn something. I doubt I will. If I want your personal input into my changing my mind, I will ask for it.

Clear? :evilangry

[Guts/Batman]

JLAvenegrs I thought rocked hardcore...

That was a Marvel/DC crossover that deserved it's kudos.

[Chad G.]

JLAvenegrs I thought rocked hardcore...


Same here. I thought that the final issue with Supes all battered with Thors Hammer and Caps shield was enough to give most a rigid woody. :D

And I really enjoyed the entire story. Thought it was very well done.

[Guts/Batman]

A human god who has only had his back broken by Bane, was nearly crippled by Hush, has shown to have weak security measures, made a huge mistake letting Jean Paul Valley take over as Batman, has been outsmarted by a much more improved Riddler not to long ago (for once), Ra's Al Ghul consistently being a step ahead of him, and not being able to always stop the Joker from hurting or killing someone close to him.

Doesn't sound like the untouchable all knowing god your talking about to me. The guy you speak of sounds like a myth and this year alone definitely shows us this.

You're dwelling too much on Batman...not BatDick. Pre-War Games/"Superman/Batman"/Tower of Babel Batman was not the same person he is now.

Hell, if I didn't know were the same characters, I would say they were different characters.

The god like mythos is new. Don't judge his human god mythos to before War Games/Tower of Babel/"Superman/Batman" because it didn't exist.

Recent writers (Loeb, Rucka specifically) have jacked him up to levels where he was never intended to go.

Jack of all trades is fine. But to attain some level of "expertness" in everything is...just pain crazy. Too crazy for me. Doesn't jibe with what the character should be.

I mean, the amount of martial arts that Batman has "mastered" is in the triple digits. How is that not totally insane?

Morrison has Talia taking down the JLA with Bruce's technology and gets out-teched by villains in his own book. He manages to not get curbstomped and fight fairly evenly by Shiva (who IIRC is listed as a meta) gets beat by Black Mask in HTH combat in War Games Act 3.

Which Batman is more valid than the other?

I'm with you on the "being ahead of everyone else" but sometimes you have to step back and say "enough is enough" and bring him back to street level.

I think that street level is where Batman should be. Not planet hopping with Superman and Wonder Woman.

[VietN]

I thought the "Batgod" talk began during Morrisons run. (on JLA of course)

[Guts/Batman]

Yes. It did.

However, Loeb upped it insanely.

See Batman punching out Captain Marvel...

[VietN]

Was that early in the S/B run when Hawkman and Marvel were sent to take 'em down? I'm pretty sure it didn't happen there as S/B beat 'em off 'camera'.

[Guts/Batman]

Yea. That happened early in S/B. I'm no expert on early S/B but if you ever go into Rumbles and see some people talking about Loeb BatGod feats that will come up as the reason why there is a SvFL standard in Rumbles.

IIRC he kicked him into a mountain as well.

He also one shotted Shiva. Which he has never done before...

I swear, Loeb sometimes...

[Lester C.]

JLAvenegrs I thought rocked hardcore...

That was a Marvel/DC crossover that deserved it's kudos.

Arguably, the only DC Marvel crossover that lived up to the tremendous hype that preceded it. Not only did Kurt and George tell a fantastic story they also highlighted the differences between the two universes. I heard a rumor that a trade is finally coming out but it going to cost seventy-five bucks.

[Agent0]

Batman is my favorite character hands down. No one else is near enough to be considered second. But I don't making any foolish pretense of him being some great humanitarian who wants nothing but to sit around and bake cookies with the Bat Family, or visit J'onn for a free psych exam. Batman is a loner. Now that is a very hard term to define. Yes, he has had the Robins, and yes, he has the Bat family. But Bruce is at his best when he is the lone wolf, free to do what needs to be done. I highly doubt that he has some pretense of being a father figure to the others, or wants to really hang out with Aquaman or John. What great friend tells his "best" friend that the last time they inspired anyone was when they were dead.

I respect the way you view Batman but again the actual comics don't present this. In the comics, Batman has actually adopted Dick Grayson having previously done the same for Jason Todd and offered Tim Drake the same opporunity. Their's nothing wrong with Batman being a father figure to his family it doesn't make the man weak it makes him a real human being. If you think being able to show emotion and sharing your inner thoughts/feelings with your loved ones is weak then what exactly is it that you'd call strong? Batman is not a loner otherwise he wouldn't have started a family of crime fighters to aid him or accepted the offer to join the JLA or formed the Outsiders to begin with.

As far as friends goes, Superman nearly killed him and Diana did something he's strongly against so its no surprise he would be at odds with them. This doesn't mean that just because he's at odds with them or the fact that he's a dick that he doesn't have a heart. Do you honestly believe he doesn't care about Superman or any other of his teammates? The main point of that comment was to lecture Superman about how he's been failing as a hero not to just hurt the man's feelings. Two brothers/friends can say exchange words like that and still have love for each other.

I will defend like a madman most points regarding Batman. People who say he is crazy or is just acting like a child can kiss my a$$. He was mind raped. PERIOD. He was betrayed by the people he should have been able to trust with his life. Batman is written as a dick right now. I'm fine with that too. Changes the dynamics of every situation he is involved in. But Batman is not the worlds greatest team player. And never will be. He is an awesome character, but for the most part works best by himself.

You sound very defensive right about now about nothing really. I never dissed your point of view of Batman I'm merely showing you that you're not right on certain points about Batman. Being mindwiped doesn't excuse his behavior of being a dick to others either just because someone wrongs you doesn't mean you have to take it out on the entire world. I'm personally not a fan of Batman being a dick so naturally we're going to disagree but that doesn't mean I don't like him as a bad mofo who'll bust up criminals then hang them from buildings by the leg or torture an alien with a pen just for information those moments I live for and that is a huge aspect that makes up the coolness of the Dark Knight we both love. He doesn't need to be a dick to his friends/allies to still be able to do those things.

So drop the subject, and lay off my viewpoint. I don't need my posts disected bit by bit from you in the hope that I will learn something. I doubt I will. If I want your personal input into my changing my mind, I will ask for it.

If you didn't want to be in this debate you wouldn't have responsed to my posts. I thought that was we were here for their's no need for anger its still fiction after all. We're both big batfans here no need for a fight when we should be debating together against those who regularly hate on Batman.

Clear?

Guess we'll have to agree to disagree then. Although I still unsure what your mad about.

[Agent0]

You're dwelling too much on Batman...not BatDick. Pre-War Games/"Superman/Batman"/Tower of Babel Batman was not the same person he is now.

Batman and Batdick as you say are one and same person. The only difference is that one we see more often then the other. Even after War Games we saw examples of the non Batdick in his own titles mainly in his main title written by Judd Winnick currently. My favorites which I have already mentioned to Omega are Batman 636 (leading up the the Amazo fight) and Birds of Prey 85 where he expresses emotion for Dick and Babs showing himself more as a father figure who looks after them.

Hell, if I didn't know were the same characters, I would say they were different characters.

Not really. Batman expressing emotion is something that always been there despite his crappy attutide.

The god like mythos is new. Don't judge his human god mythos to before War Games/Tower of Babel/"Superman/Batman" because it didn't exist.

Huh? You confused me here.

Recent writers (Loeb, Rucka specifically) have jacked him up to levels where he was never intended to go.

Examples?

Jack of all trades is fine. But to attain some level of "expertness" in everything is...just pain crazy. Too crazy for me. Doesn't jibe with what the character should be.

Disagree. Again, he's so good in so many areas because he knew in advance before he became Batman that he'd have to be. That's why he saught the world's best minds to be the best he could be. This doesn't mean he is the best in the world at everything which is not the same.

I mean, the amount of martial arts that Batman has "mastered" is in the triple digits. How is that not totally insane?

Well to be fair/honest I will say that not every writer has writtin him as being a master of every single martial art form yet still so good that he's one of DC's most skilled.

For example, Alan Grant believes Batman has mastered only a handful of fighting styles and fused them into one unique style. Whereas, Chuck Dixon believes he only mastered different techniques from each style and moved on without becoming a master at any one style but having mastered so many techniques it has made him a very formidable opponent.

Now the official stance on the subject from DC is that yes he is a master of every fighting style or at least 127 (however you wanna view this).

Personally the Alan Grant one is my fav which can be explained here:

"The grim purpose that burned inside him was growing, demanding direction, seeking release. He looked further, to the East. He learned karate from an ascended master in the Paektu-San mountains of Korea--Savate from a convicted killer living as a beach bum on an island off Borneo. Six months in a japanese hermitage taught him the value of Judo and Ju-jitsu. From a chinese woman so old she should have been dead, he learned the secrets of the Tao, that nothing is fixed, everything is fluid, everthing is energy. He mastered a dozen disciplines, experimented with them and fused them into something that was uniquely his own. In Africa he learned how to read the environment for the signs man's passage leaves--how to find and follow a trail to which ordinary men were blind...The ninjas taught him their secrets--how to use the shadows, how to employ psychology to win the battle before it's even fought--the precautions to take when you make yourself a target--and how to use fear." - Shadow of the Bat #0

Nevertheless, its explained in his origin that Batman is able to master so many styles so easily because he's marked by a great violence that gives him his natural talent for learning martial arts quickly. It's the reason his teachers always favored him and liked him so much because he is such a quick learner.

Anyway, Batman's not the only one who's a master at every style theirs also Richard Dragon, Lady Shiva, and Batgirl none of them are metas either. So I don't see the problem.

Morrison has Talia taking down the JLA with Bruce's technology and gets out-teched by villains in his own book. He manages to not get curbstomped and fight fairly evenly by Shiva (who IIRC is listed as a meta) gets beat by Black Mask in HTH combat in War Games Act 3.

Talia also had the highly trained league of assassin backing her its not like she did it by herself. Regarding Shiva, when has he ever been beaten by her? If you're refering to Death in the Family they actually fought to a stalemate (with Bruce mentioning they're equal in skill) up until Jason Todd attacked Shiva from behind which allowed Batman to take her out pretty quickly afterwards. BTW, DC has never said she was a meta I can promise you that (if she is thats news to me). Although its hinted Conner Hawke (Green Arrow's son) maybe who's also one of DC's best martial artist and lost to Lady Shiva after giving her a very rough battle though.

What do you mean btw when you say he gets out-teched by villians in his own book?

Which Batman is more valid than the other?

The most consistent one.

I'm with you on the "being ahead of everyone else" but sometimes you have to step back and say "enough is enough" and bring him back to street level.

I can see what you're saying and I definitely respect that but at the sametime I personally LOVE the uberbat especially written by Morrison. I think the reason people have a problem with this take on Batman because he's normally written as the MVP of the league although he's human (though not ordinary by any means). However, in his own book he's pulled off feats like:

- hacking into an alien database
- defeated powerful metas like Clayface, Spellbinder, and Scarebeast who are members of his rogues gallery
- succeesfully fought Superman on various occassions
- outsmarted the greatest criminal mastermind on earth (Luthor) two times already
- has been pulling off what some people would say super human feats since Year One like kicking down a tree, punching a man through a brick wall, or breaking steel handcuffs. Yet, he still made lots of mistakes during his first year.

I think that street level is where Batman should be. Not planet hopping with Superman and Wonder Woman

I like the Batman who goes on space adventures but I too have to agree it makes more sense for him to stay on earth more often then not. I like to think he only leaves earth on missions when his expertise is truly needed to help out.

[Guts/Batman]

Examples?

Not dying from Superman's initial attack on the Watchtower in Sacrifice. He should have been killed in that instance.

Surviving Superman's second attack in Hush.

Loeb Batman one punching Shiva (something that he has no history of being able to do).

Not getting curbstomped by Captain Marvel.

Not getting curbstomped by Wonder Woman...in her own book.

Outsmarting Dark-freakin-seid.

Building Brother MK1 as he was able to do it.

Not getting curbstomped by a bloodlusted Batgirl when he fought her.

His war games protocols are more of examples of dickery he was not supposed to go to.

Tower of Babel plot devices (after the fact mind you)

How many more do I need?

Now the official stance on the subject from DC is that yes he is a master of every fighting style or at least 127 (however you wanna view this).

Nevertheless, its explained in his origin that Batman is able to master so many styles so easily because he's marked by a great violence that gives him his natural talent for learning martial arts quickly. It's the reason his teachers always favored him and liked him so much because he is such a quick learner.

That is still utterly insane. Being an abnormally fast learner shouldn't make you master 127 styles in 20 years...

That's like mastering each style in like 6 months, not to mention having to give time to getting expertise in almost all the sciences, uber technology, etc.

Even if they guy only got 1 hour of sleep for 20 straight years that is still utterly insane.

Getting 1 hour of sleep and being good to go almost all the time is utterly insane.

Talia also had the highly trained league of assassin backing her its not like she did it by herself. Regarding Shiva, when has he ever been beaten by her? If you're refering to Death in the Family they actually fought to a stalemate (with Bruce mentioning they're equal in skill) up until Jason Todd attacked Shiva from behind which allowed Batman to take her out pretty quickly afterwards. BTW, DC has never said she was a meta I can promise you that (if she is thats news to me). Although its hinted Conner Hawke (Green Arrow's son) maybe who's also one of DC's best martial artist and lost to Lady Shiva after giving her a very rough battle though.

I believe the OMAC listing had Shiva as a metahuman. Once again, finding information in the comics.

Shiva also owned Batgirl pretty good IIRC. Cassandra is certainly above Batman in MA.

One punching Shiva was pure bullshit.

What you say of Richard Dragon, etc. is true. It is still utterly insane.

I like the uber Bat myself but I hope by the end of Crisis, he is a more Earth based hero who is more down to Earth as well.

[Agent0]

Yes. It did.

Not really. Batman when he first met Superman already had an contigency plan to stop him as shown in Man of Steel #3. Also, in that comic we see that its here that shows a Batman who's capable of going days without sleep as he's gone 4 days already without it but still was able to have a successful team up with Superman against Magpie after Superman tried to arrest him. That's not the only high end feat he's pulled off pre-Morrison/Waid JLA.

However, Loeb upped it insanely.

This is true I think he has even Morrison beat as matter of fact. Atlhough Morrison's Batman seems to be a bit smarter.

Yea. That happened early in S/B. I'm no expert on early S/B but if you ever go into Rumbles and see some people talking about Loeb BatGod feats that will come up as the reason why there is a SvFL standard in Rumbles.

IIRC he kicked him into a mountain as well.

This is not what happened despite what some people may say. Batman never punched out Captain Marvel in S/B he only kicked him *after* Superman threw Marvel Batman's way which was into a mountain. Afterwards, it was explained that Superman and Batman jumped Marvel and Hawkman (off panel) and took their costumes. Superman taking Marvel's and Batman taking Hawkman's.

Nevertheless, Batman's leg should've shattered from the impact of the kick so that I do know was bad writing. As was Batman surviving the shazam lighting bolt only being knocked out but its possible Billy can control the destructive force of the bolt at the sametime.

He also one shotted Shiva. Which he has never done before...

Technically she was taken out with two attacks was we saw when Batman blocked her last attack by twisting her arm as their was then a cracking sound. After that, Batman knocks her out.

She was mind controlled so her head wasn't in the game although her skills were on automatic as shown in the comic. So it shouldn't be counted as an offical loss for Shiva but it does show Batman is capable of again matching her skill level which he's done before.

[Agent0]

Not dying from Superman's initial attack on the Watchtower in Sacrifice. He should have been killed in that instance.

Actually, it was explained that he was send flying into the secondary security blister which is what saves his life. It was then that Batman was able to activate the JLA counter security measures to him defend himself.

I'm not saying an unprepared Batman surviving a bloodthrusty Superman in the long run isn't bad writing but I had to point that out.

Surviving Superman's second attack in Hush.

Heat vision? He saw that coming ahead of time being that he knows Clark so well. Also, to be fair, Batman himself notices that Superman is holding back as much as possible during the fight as he mentions if Clark wanted to he could pound him at super speed with nothing he could do about it. Not to mention the kryptonite ring slowing his reflexes.

Loeb Batman one punching Shiva (something that he has no history of being able to do).

She was mind controlled and trust me I seen Batman one shot people much more durable then her previous to this. Just recently he knocked out Hawkman with a mean uppercut while HE was being mind controlled. Had she not been mind controlled I agree their's no way he could've taken her so easily as the fight would've lasted for hours.

Not getting curbstomped by Captain Marvel.

S/B? He actually was suckered by Captain Marvel when he changed back into Billy (btw he didn't know that Billy was Marvel in this book as he should've known but I believe it was corrected in the TPB verison) and called down his magic lighting bolt to knock him out which should've killed him though.

Not getting curbstomped by Wonder Woman...in her own book.

They were sparring. Diana often has sparred with Batman to improve her skill. As she was shown sparring with Shiva, Croc, and Cheetah in JLA Work Week who all was helping her improve in combat ability. Anyother time, Diana has regularly used her super strength or speed to take Batman out quite easily.

Outsmarting Dark-freakin-seid.

I don't see how this is bad he still got the crap kicked out of him and would've been killed had it not been for mother box. Hell, in Morrison's JLA when he outsmarts Darkseid (with some help) he was killed by him.

Building Brother MK1 as he was able to do it.

Brother I was only meant to be a super spy satellite as it was then corrupted by Max who also created the OMACs. Even so, he's shown that he can replicate Mr. Terrific's T-sphere technology.

Not getting curbstomped by a bloodlusted Batgirl when he fought her.

Huh? Batgirl is really good but she's not that good. When they first met they actually sparred against each other and he won. Also, Batman like Batgirl has been trained under David Cain her father so it shouldn't be surprising he knows how to fight her on her own level.

His war games protocols are more of examples of dickery he was not supposed to go to.

Not suppossed to being the key words as Spoiler was the one who put them into play as he himself noted his plans were flawed and never meant to be used.

Tower of Babel plot devices (after the fact mind you)

Why is this bad? It makes since as many times he's seen his friends/allies turn on him whether it be through mind control or crossing the line as Hal Jordan did (or was that the yellow fear monster ;)).

How many more do I need?

I'm not seeing your point most of those examples have already been explained in the comics why he's been able to pull off these types of feats.

[Guts/Batman]

I'm not seeing your point most of those examples have already been explained in the comics why he's been able to pull off these types of feats.

But it doesn't make any sense.

I think too much like a Rumbler...

[Agent0]

That is still utterly insane. Being an abnormally fast learner shouldn't make you master 127 styles in 20 years...

That's like mastering each style in like 6 months, not to mention having to give time to getting expertise in almost all the sciences, uber technology, etc.

Even if they guy only got 1 hour of sleep for 20 straight years that is still utterly insane.

Getting 1 hour of sleep and being good to go almost all the time is utterly insane

We are talking about a fictional character here though. In their world its possible to master such things but even then Bruce was shown to be gifted since he was child.

I believe the OMAC listing had Shiva as a metahuman. Once again, finding information in the comics.

Don't remember this.

Shiva also owned Batgirl pretty good IIRC. Cassandra is certainly above Batman in MA.

Shiva has owned Batgirl once this is true but they're still equals as Batgirl has defeated Shiva and while both of them are more skilled then Batman they're not better fighters then him as he's a far better tactican/strategist. Not to mention, neither has defeated him.

One punching Shiva was pure bullshit.

I gotta be honest and say if I were writing that battle mind controlled or not I too wouldn't have had her defeated so easily (unless Batman used weaponary). But it surely wouldn't have been as hard for him to win as a normal fight between them has gone.

I like the uber Bat myself but I hope by the end of Crisis, he is a more Earth based hero who is more down to Earth as well.

Difference in opinion here I guess. I'm looking forward to the dick Batman (at least towards his friends/allies) being erased and the uberbat remaining although I don't mind them cutting back on the space adventures.

[Guts/Batman]

I'll clarify my postion.

The Batman being able to master 127 MA styles along with mastering multiples sciences, techs beyond human understanding, and other numerous things is what makes me think there is something superhuman about him.

DC's "it's Batman, he can do whatever the hell he wants because he is Batman" line of thinking is bullshit IMO. Fast learner fine but he sure as hell learned at a superhuman rate.

DC expects me, the reader, to just accept this blindly. Some fans don't like to ask the question "why" and some do. Batman sneaks by on the "why's and the how's" of the "why's and how's" while almost no other superhero in current continuity does.

Not even Superman. In the 70's he pulled out bullshit powers because that's what the era was like. Fun and free flowing but DC is currently putting forth a more "realistic" and "mature" face to it's continuity.

That is why I feel DC must answer the "why's and how's" of Batman's "why's and how's." IMO, the "because he is Batman" or "he is an ubergenius" doesn't work in current DC. They need to answer "Why is he an ubergenius?"

They don't need to say that Batman is a metahuman or anything, they just need to explain why he was able to learn at such a superhuman rate. Btw, I mean superhuman in the literalest of terms.

Yes, it is fiction in a universe where Kryptonians can fly without propulsion and martians have ability to change forms, telepathy, near Superman level strength but when it comes down to it, a human in DCU is damn near real world human level.

"Normal" humans in DCU don't learn that fast. It has taken years for The Atom to master a few sciences. Batman specialized and generalized at the same time. Granted he pulled some of that stuff of in his teens but his rate of learning borders on superhman.

On Batman's character, I feel that Batman would be better off if DC made him an Eart based hero because I think that is what is throwing off his character at the moment. OMAC and trust problems came out of the JLA books and translated into the Batman books.

Also, I think that Batman shouldn't be appearing too much outside of his core books and their related titles. Too much Batman is a bad thing and waters the character IMO.

I would like to see DC take Batman to his basic street level again. It is where he can best be used as a character. Have Superman or Wonder Woman show up every once and awhile (see The Heltika, or something like that) but not have that as a constantly occurring deal. Don't let him wander off too much.

The quality of Batman stories in the Batman books would improve as we would probably see a consistent written Batman. The quality of JLA book would probably go up as well with the exclusion of Batman because the plots of JLA with Batman had to protect Batman from being killed.

Plots with major superhuman's + Batman have to be able to protect Batman from being killed fairly easily. So, the writers make him come up with these uber plot devices to make sure that Batman doesn't die. Batman as written is a walking plot device (and sometimes a walking plot hole) and PIS/CIS in JLA stories.

Batman not Luthor should never be a viable "Big 7" level threat. Ever. That is the same deal with the Flash. Flash's PIS/CIS problems keep his Rogue's safe from being beaten too easily.

Also dealing with Batman's character, current Batman is nothing to be respected by the people in the story nor by the readers. I can't think of any reason for Atkin's to respect Batman at this point. I can't think of any reason for Selina to love Bruce, either. Not one.

If he was more Earth based and had less responsibities with the JLA he would be less of a dick because he would have more time to focus on his life as Bruce Wayne forcing him to not become an isolationist asshole who drives everyone away from him and protect Gotham City a hell of a lot better than he has recently. It doesn't help when the plot is derived from your failures that have not be shown before, though.

Right now I feel he has too many responsibilities. His edge has been lost. Gotham City has been compromised too many times and too much by his involvement in the JLA and needs to come back down for awhile to protect Gotham City better.

As Bruce Wayne and Batman. Not using WayneTech to build Brother MK1 but to build recreation centers and stuff like that to keep kids from turning into criminals as adults.

Where was Batman when the Rock of Eternity exploded? Fighting freaking Despero in his mansion with the JLA as a result of the mindwipes in the JLA's not so distant past.

There is too much going on in Batman's world right now IMO. Batman needs to find a nice groove to sit into and chill awhile.

EDIT: I also feel that the relationship between Bruce Wayne and Batman should be Cletus Cassidey/Carnage like in the way that both think as one. Cletus Cassidey and Carnage are 1 entity not two (as physically they are.)

Batman and Bruce Wayne should not be like Venom I in the way that Eddie Brock and the Venom symbiote were different creatures with two completely different minds. The only thing keeping them together was a common goal.

Batman and Bruce Wayne should be more than two entities working for the same goal without being two completely different minds, IMO.

[Lester C.]

I'll clarify my postion.

The Batman being able to master 127 MA styles along with mastering multiples sciences, techs beyond human understanding, and other numerous things is what makes me think there is something superhuman about him.

DC's "it's Batman, he can do whatever the hell he wants because he is Batman" line of thinking is bullshit IMO. Fast learner fine but he sure as hell learned at a superhuman rate.

DC expects me, the reader, to just accept this blindly. Some fans don't like to ask the question "why" and some do. Batman sneaks by on the "why's and the how's" of the "why's and how's" while almost no other superhero in current continuity does.

Not even Superman. In the 70's he pulled out bullshit powers because that's what the era was like. Fun and free flowing but DC is currently putting forth a more "realistic" and "mature" face to it's continuity.

That is why I feel DC must answer the "why's and how's" of Batman's "why's and how's." IMO, the "because he is Batman" or "he is an ubergenius" doesn't work in current DC. They need to answer "Why is he an ubergenius?"

They don't need to say that Batman is a metahuman or anything, they just need to explain why he was able to learn at such a superhuman rate. Btw, I mean superhuman in the literalest of terms.

Yes, it is fiction in a universe where Kryptonians can fly without propulsion and martians have ability to change forms, telepathy, near Superman level strength but when it comes down to it, a human in DCU is damn near real world human level.

"Normal" humans in DCU don't learn that fast. It has taken years for The Atom to master a few sciences. Batman specialized and generalized at the same time. Granted he pulled some of that stuff of in his teens but his rate of learning borders on superhman.

On Batman's character, I feel that Batman would be better off if DC made him an Eart based hero because I think that is what is throwing off his character at the moment. OMAC and trust problems came out of the JLA books and translated into the Batman books.

Also, I think that Batman shouldn't be appearing too much outside of his core books and their related titles. Too much Batman is a bad thing and waters the character IMO.

I would like to see DC take Batman to his basic street level again. It is where he can best be used as a character. Have Superman or Wonder Woman show up every once and awhile (see The Heltika, or something like that) but not have that as a constantly occurring deal. Don't let him wander off too much.

The quality of Batman stories in the Batman books would improve as we would probably see a consistent written Batman. The quality of JLA book would probably go up as well with the exclusion of Batman because the plots of JLA with Batman had to protect Batman from being killed.

Plots with major superhuman's + Batman have to be able to protect Batman from being killed fairly easily. So, the writers make him come up with these uber plot devices to make sure that Batman doesn't die. Batman as written is a walking plot device (and sometimes a walking plot hole) and PIS/CIS in JLA stories.

Batman not Luthor should never be a viable "Big 7" level threat. Ever. That is the same deal with the Flash. Flash's PIS/CIS problems keep his Rogue's safe from being beaten too easily.

Also dealing with Batman's character, current Batman is nothing to be respected by the people in the story nor by the readers. I can't think of any reason for Atkin's to respect Batman at this point. I can't think of any reason for Selina to love Bruce, either. Not one.

If he was more Earth based and had less responsibities with the JLA he would be less of a dick because he would have more time to focus on his life as Bruce Wayne forcing him to not become an isolationist asshole who drives everyone away from him and protect Gotham City a hell of a lot better than he has recently. It doesn't help when the plot is derived from your failures that have not be shown before, though.

Right now I feel he has too many responsibilities. His edge has been lost. Gotham City has been compromised too many times and too much by his involvement in the JLA and needs to come back down for awhile to protect Gotham City better.

As Bruce Wayne and Batman. Not using WayneTech to build Brother MK1 but to build recreation centers and stuff like that to keep kids from turning into criminals as adults.

Where was Batman when the Rock of Eternity exploded? Fighting freaking Despero in his mansion with the JLA as a result of the mindwipes in the JLA's not so distant past.

There is too much going on in Batman's world right now IMO. Batman needs to find a nice groove to sit into and chill awhile.

EDIT: I also feel that the relationship between Bruce Wayne and Batman should be Cletus Cassidey/Carnage like in the way that both think as one. Cletus Cassidey and Carnage are 1 entity not two (as physically they are.)

Batman and Bruce Wayne should not be like Venom I in the way that Eddie Brock and the Venom symbiote were different creatures with two completely different minds. The only thing keeping them together was a common goal.

Batman and Bruce Wayne should be more than two entities working for the same goal without being two completely different minds, IMO.

What an incredibly intelligent post by Guts.

[VietN]

Now I just offer a possible way of seeing things.

People can't be THAT great with a bow and arrow.
People can't be THAT good at dodging bullets.
People can't be THAT aerobic.
People can't have SUCH great instincts.

If Batman is supposed to be the emobidment of the best of human ability. Comic characters are shown to be larger than life then we get an amazing human being. Coupled with the fact we gotta have a bunch of Batman comics at the same time doesn't help people conceive a such a man.


Being that talented is CONCEIVABLE and brought into the comic realm. Take all those extreme cases of talented people (crazy feats of human ability... there are people who can ride a motorcycle on a wire!!) and you can see how it can happen (for one person to master one skill). I