Ultimate Cap [Archive] - Comic Book Resources Forums

jadegiant77

10-06-2005, 02:23 PM

Jake V

10-06-2005, 02:28 PM

Yeah, let's be real nice to the guy who just voluntarily turned himself into a rampaging monster that killed a couple hundred people.

Nick Kal

10-06-2005, 02:31 PM

Captain America is awesome. Bruce Banner deserved what he got.

Cayman

10-06-2005, 02:32 PM

I thought his anger was pretty righteous there myself. Banner had caused some major destruction.

Cay

Kayless

10-06-2005, 02:34 PM

I don't understand why people think Ultimate Cap is a jerk. Because he made a wisecrack about France once? Because he kicked Banner in the face after the Hulk had killed a ton of people? Because he beat up Giant Man after he put his wife in the hospital?
Yeah, let's be real nice to the guy who just voluntarily turned himself into a rampaging monster that killed a couple hundred people.
Exactly. Banner stupidly turned himself into the Hulk and ended up killing hundreds of people and causing God knows how much property damage. I would of kicked the little SOB in the face too (not to mention the fact that he could have Hulked out again and Cap's kick was to keep him from doing so).

Arrjay

10-06-2005, 02:36 PM

It's an interesting take on the character and yes, he is an asshole but that's what makes this new version of Cap so different and honestly I think it works. As Jake V pointed out above, it isn't like Banner was innocent in the whole affair. Either way you see it, I think it's safe to say that Ult. Cap has a decent and deserving place in the Ultimate Marvel Universe, no matter how much he may come across as being unnecessarily violent.

Jake V

10-06-2005, 02:37 PM

Incidentally, Millar had this to say about the incident:

Some people really seemed rattled by Cap taking Banner down at the end when he was no longer the Hulk, but he wasn't being mean-spirited. This guy becomes an unstoppable monster when he's under stress. They're given temporary respite thanks to Jan's quick thinking and Cap has to calm him down, pretend everything is fine and then take him out quickly before he can turn into the Hulk again. Where's the controversy?

Nick Kal

10-06-2005, 02:38 PM

Mark Millar is smart.

Kirk G

10-06-2005, 02:40 PM

God, I f**kin' hate that guy. He's like a real grade A a**hole. The moment when he kicked a defenseless Bruce Banner in the teeth after he was already defeated sealed my searing hatred for the man. Just one of those macho alpha male bastards that used to beat your ass in high school.

Agree? Disagree?
I gotta agree that as a preventative measure, kicking Banner in the face may have made sense... but it came across to me as a gratuitous, excessive, indulgence by the victor kicking the underdog. It certainly gave us a new view into his personality and tactics.
As a refreshing change, I guess I don't mind it so much, but just as Banner "Hulked Out", I am beginning to suspect that Steve Rogers "Cap's Out" and his adreniline kicks in when he's in battle. I suspect he's got some anger issues, but over all, I'm enjoying the ride! :rolleyes:

StoneGold

10-06-2005, 02:40 PM

Nah, if Cap's a dick, it's more like what he did to Thor. He was a dick when he went to see him in the nightclub.

CaptMagellan

10-06-2005, 02:43 PM

Nah, if Cap's a dick, it's more like what he did to Thor. He was a dick when he went to see him in the nightclub.

Yeah. That scene made me think Cap was a dick. Especially the whole "let's rip the door off it's hinges and knock the bouncer who's just doing his job across the room" thing.

Other than that scene though, I think he's just a very intruiging character. Far more complex and interesting than 616 Cap.

jadegiant77

10-06-2005, 02:44 PM

You mean there wasn't any other way to restrain Banner beside kicking him like a goddamn dog??

Nick Kal

10-06-2005, 02:46 PM

Well Cap could have bashed him over the head with his shield, or punched him really hard... other than that, i don't think so.

Cayman

10-06-2005, 02:46 PM

The underdog had just eaten a bunch of people. :eek:

Cay

StoneGold

10-06-2005, 02:46 PM

Far more complex and interesting than 616 Cap.You have not been reading Brubaker's take on Cap then. Shame on you.

Jake V

10-06-2005, 02:47 PM

You mean there wasn't any other way to restrain Banner beside kicking him like a goddamn dog??
Where's the incentive to be humane to a mass murderer?

Especially when you're sitting on a mountain of debris with no support and no equipment and the mass murderer is begining to panic right in front of you?

Nick Kal

10-06-2005, 02:49 PM

Ditto to the shame about not reading Brubaker's Cap. That book rocks.

PrimalScream

10-07-2005, 07:25 AM

did we ever find out who the ultimate traitor was?

CaptMagellan

10-07-2005, 07:54 AM

You have not been reading Brubaker's take on Cap then. Shame on you.

*looks outside and sees mob with torches and pitchforks*

I'LL TRY BRUBAKER'S CAP!!! I WILL!!!

PLEASE DON'T BURN ME AS A WITCH!!!

;)

*too much coffee this morning*

brian2322

10-09-2005, 11:36 AM

ok so kicking defenssless banner made sense but the nightclub scene and not even saying no to kicking thors ass makes ULT. Cap a dick in my eyes

StoneGold

10-09-2005, 11:55 AM

ok so kicking defenssless banner made sense but the nightclub scene and not even saying no to kicking thors ass makes ULT. Cap a dick in my eyes
Even beyond that, it's the little things. Maybe it's just he's a dick compared to the saint of the regular MU, but UCap seems to go out of his way to make other people feel just a little bit smaller. In some ways, he's the opposite of Cap. Remember how Bendis had Iron Man describe Cap to Wolverine? Just working around him makes you a better person? That's not UCap.

BlairH

10-09-2005, 08:07 PM

Kayless

10-09-2005, 08:14 PM

Indeed. :D

jadegiant77

10-10-2005, 02:33 PM

Where's the incentive to be humane to a mass murderer?

Especially when you're sitting on a mountain of debris with no support and no equipment and the mass murderer is begining to panic right in front of you?

Did you ever think maybe those ppl deserved to die? Maybe they were all skrull in disguise or total pricks... ;)

Bloopinator

10-10-2005, 02:57 PM

Whooooooooooo!!!! Ultimate Cap Smells!!!!

Smokeyjay

10-11-2005, 01:16 PM

Bruce stupidly Hulked out and killed hundreds of people. I would have kicked or punched him in the face as well. In fact, I'm sure a lot of people would have to be restrained at the risk of killing Bruce. Hundreds of people died a meaningless death-I would be more concerned about that then whether Bruce had a broken jaw or not.

Hi-Fi

10-11-2005, 01:58 PM

He's a jerk. I hate him.

jadegiant77

10-11-2005, 02:00 PM

Right on!

Blair H, your icon rocks! :D

Crash-Man

10-11-2005, 02:18 PM

A lot of people in this thread are saying "I would have".

That's the point. You're not Captain America, and you don't hold yourself to the level of ideals and conduct that he does. Someone mentioned that Millar is smart, and yeah, he is. I think his Cap's attitude (in certain situations) is an indictment of a prevalent American attitude today, and the divide between those who accept it and those who reject it is as clear as the divide between Red and Blue. (Sorry for going there.)

Cap doesn't take pot shots at fallen foes and let his frustration get the better of him. At least, not the regular Marvel Cap.

That said though, I don't mind this Cap being a bit of an asshole. It makes him interesting. Of course, he'd be more interesting if being an asshole wasn't a trait shared by just about every other Ultimate...

Kid Kamikaze10

10-11-2005, 02:18 PM

Ultimate Cap is my favorite Ultimate character, along with Thor.

He's a jerk, but he's an awesome jerk.

It's Nick Fury that I'm hating, I'm hoping he gets his! :evilsmile

Sentry

10-11-2005, 03:31 PM

At time i love the ultimate cap at times i hate him,

i hate he and his relationship with jan, but love that fight scene with hank.

StoneGold

10-11-2005, 03:44 PM

That said though, I don't mind this Cap being a bit of an asshole. It makes him interesting. Of course, he'd be more interesting if being an asshole wasn't a trait shared by just about every other Ultimate...
There's a number of Ultimates who aren't assholes. Thor's not an asshole. Tony's a drunk, but he doesn't seem like an asshole. Hawkeye seemed fairly cool. But yeah, pretty much everyone else.

Mr.Musgrave

10-11-2005, 04:31 PM

Ult.Cap is a soldier, not a superhero. He's not going to pussyfoot around with mass murderers and wife beaters.

Alan2099

10-11-2005, 04:49 PM

If he's going to walk around being a symbol of the country, don't you think it might be better if he wasn't an absolute ass?

I also see nobody's mentioned the "This A doesn't stand for France" line.

Mr.Musgrave

10-11-2005, 04:54 PM

So in a realistic book set in a realistic world America would want its symbol walking around acting like a boyscout? I don't think so. Ultimate Cap is an exact representation of modern America. He's a soldier. Not a superhero or a symbol. He's a soldier and he does what he has to. And I hate to break it to you but America wasn't all ice creme and puppy-dogs in the 30's and 40's. The whole "innocence" thing is nothing but a load of garbage.

Jake V

10-11-2005, 05:09 PM

Cap doesn't take pot shots at fallen foes and let his frustration get the better of him. At least, not the regular Marvel Cap.
Ultimate Cap didn't either. Read Millar's explanation of the situation. He knocked out a panicking Banner because he was about to turn back into the Hulk. He didn't do it out of anger.

If he's going to walk around being a symbol of the country, don't you think it might be better if he wasn't an absolute ass?
No, I think being an ass is pretty appropriate.

Arrjay

10-11-2005, 05:53 PM

No, I think being an ass is pretty appropriate.

Damn Jake. You beat me to it.

twilight

10-11-2005, 06:14 PM

I haven't read it but this 'kick in the face' incident seems perfectly reasonable.

Bruce has just caused a massive amount of damage and in panicking might Hulk out again.Cap had every right to stop him.

Crash-Man

10-11-2005, 07:15 PM

So in a realistic book set in a realistic world America would want its symbol walking around acting like a boyscout?

It's not what "America" wants...as if there's some general consensus to that. It's what Cap believes American ideals to be.

I haven't read it but this 'kick in the face' incident seems perfectly reasonable.

You need to read it to understand.

Knocking Banner out made perfect sense, but it's the way it was done that polarizes readers. It read like a low blow.

streator

10-11-2005, 08:41 PM

i actually like ultimate cap. i have 0 interest in 616 cap, never have either. somehow, millar made me like captain america for the first time ever. he kicks ass. it's that simple for me.

Mr.Musgrave

10-11-2005, 09:53 PM

It's what Cap believes American ideals to be.

Well there you go. Ult.Cap is behaving in a way that Ult.Cap believes he should. Thank you for proving my point.

Sentry

10-12-2005, 12:57 AM

I also see nobody's mentioned the "This A doesn't stand for France" line.

i hated that line, firstly cap would never say it. In a recent comic he is telling someone that the french were not cowards in the war but in fact very strong since they were occupied and they were a strong force is beating down hitler.
i know this comic was in the reg marvel universe but i still believe cap would have these rules in the ultimate universe after having fought side by side many french people in the war. i feel that this was a bit of a cheap line by miller.

Crash-Man

10-12-2005, 01:37 AM

Well there you go. Ult.Cap is behaving in a way that Ult.Cap believes he should. Thank you for proving my point.

No, your point was that he's acting how America wants him to act. That he's a soldier. An order-taker.

Either way, I don't doubt that Ult Cap is also adhering to his perception of American ideals. My point was that (much of) his attitude is the writer's criticism of those particular ideals.

Case in point:

i feel that this was a bit of a cheap line by miller.

I don't think it was an anti-France line, personally. I think it was intentionally used to represent the (rather stupid) anti-French attitude held by many Americans. It was jingoistic, low and ignorant, and I thought it said more against Captain America (and Millar's opinion of certain American values) than France.

Mr.Musgrave

10-12-2005, 01:45 AM

No, your point was that he's acting how America wants him to act. That he's a soldier. An order-taker.

Well, since you know my point better than I do that must be it. :rolleyes:

No, my point is that Cap is representing America as he sees it and he's doing what he has to do. I've said that a few times now.

Why people can't understand that this ISN'T the Marvel Universe is beyond me. None of these characters can act out of "616" character because they aren't the "616" characters.

Crash-Man

10-12-2005, 02:13 AM

Well, since you know my point better than I do that must be it.

All I know is what you've written in this thread. Before claiming my last point as your own, you maintained that Cap is a soldier who does what America wants him to do, and what he has to do. You said nothing about ideals or beliefs. You said that he's an exact representation (which, btw, is impossible, as there are too many, and too many conflicting, American ideals), but you never said that it was his choice or reflective of his beliefs.

In your own words, "He's a soldier and he does what he has to." Not that he does what he believes in. Those are two very, very different things, and it cuts to the heart of the matter.

Either way, I think Ultimate Cap is doing what he believes in.

If you want people to know your points as well as you seem to, try expressing yourself better.

Why people can't understand that this ISN'T the Marvel Universe is beyond me.

Thinking that Cap is an asshole and thinking he's out of character aren't mutually inclusive. A lot of people, myself included, understand that he's a different interpretation of the original...but that doesn't mean we have to like him.

Mr.Musgrave

10-12-2005, 02:19 AM

In your own words, "He's a soldier and he does what he has to."

There you go. He does what he has to do. HE does what HE has to do. Not "He does what AMERICA wants him to do." I didn't think I'd have to hand hold that point since what I said and what you THINK I said are two obviously different things.

Jake V

10-12-2005, 02:21 AM

Either way, I think Ultimate Cap is doing what he believes in.
This much you've got right. But I don't think Ult Cap spends any time believing that he really represents America. He realizes that people may think of him a certain way because of his costume, but it doesn't change what his job is. He'd be doing the same thing even if he was wearing regular army clothes.

pennywisdom

10-12-2005, 02:53 AM

God, I f**kin' hate that guy. He's like a real grade A a**hole. The moment when he kicked a defenseless Bruce Banner in the teeth after he was already defeated sealed my searing hatred for the man. Just one of those macho alpha male bastards that used to beat your ass in high school.
Thank God I'm not the only one who feels this way. Ultimates, as a title, is eminently interesting and well-written, but the Ultimates, as characters, are total jerks. I hate Ulimate Cap, which is strange, because 616 Cap is the very model of heroism.

I hate Ultimate Cap because he represents red-state mentality in all its fatuous glory. I can't really root for any character who is that much of a tool. He's a puppet for Fury, a pawn in a game and he never seems to mind. Take for example, when he's ordered to take down the X-Men for their act of "terrorism": he doesn't bother to learn the whole truth, he doesn't have the ability to see complexity or shades of grey. If his CO tells him "those are the bad guys" then it's time to kick their heads in without questioning authority. This is why the Ultimates go after the X-Men ERRONEOUSLY. Ult. Cap is the Bush Doctrine made flesh.

Crash-Man

10-12-2005, 03:06 AM

There you go. He does what he has to do. HE does what HE has to do. Not "He does what AMERICA wants him to do."

So in a realistic book set in a realistic world America would want its symbol walking around acting like a boyscout?

Reading your posts, it looks like you're saying that he does what he has to do (as opposed to what he believes he should do) because it's what America wants him to do. Sorry if I read you wrong.

This much you've got right. But I don't think Ult Cap spends any time believing that he really represents America. He realizes that people may think of him a certain way because of his costume, but it doesn't change what his job is. He'd be doing the same thing even if he was wearing regular army clothes.

I guess you're right. It's one of the reasons I think lots of people don't like him. He doesn't seem to have his eyes on the bigger picture. He's more of a tool (pun intended) of the big boys. And to many people, that's a scary image.

Strangely enough, the times Cap has disobeyed orders have been to pursue questionable personal vendettas that would probably have been better dealt with if done by the book. Quite possibly a comment on unilateral action, but that's just me.

Forefinger

10-14-2005, 10:20 AM

Thank God I'm not the only one who feels this way. Ultimates, as a title, is eminently interesting and well-written, but the Ultimates, as characters, are total jerks. I hate Ulimate Cap, which is strange, because 616 Cap is the very model of heroism.

I hate Ultimate Cap because he represents red-state mentality in all its fatuous glory. I can't really root for any character who is that much of a tool. He's a puppet for Fury, a pawn in a game and he never seems to mind. Take for example, when he's ordered to take down the X-Men for their act of "terrorism": he doesn't bother to learn the whole truth, he doesn't have the ability to see complexity or shades of grey. If his CO tells him "those are the bad guys" then it's time to kick their heads in without questioning authority. This is why the Ultimates go after the X-Men ERRONEOUSLY. Ult. Cap is the Bush Doctrine made flesh.
Ultimate Cap is ONLY a supersoldier, not a superhero. He follows orders. Maybe one day he will become disassociated with the U.S. government like Stever Rodgers was for awhile, but for the moment, he's still a member of the U.S. Army. Or at least he wears his uniform around all the time.

DouglasDanger

10-15-2005, 12:17 PM

The Ultimates and the france line in particular, are all classic Millar shock factor "OMG no he didnt do that!" stuff. Which I choose to pass on.

Bloopinator

10-15-2005, 01:28 PM

Ultimate Cap. ROCKS!!

milly3cat

10-17-2005, 08:06 AM

a writer who is dumb can not writer a script for a smart charater.

a charater like the captain is a leader who is smart and has values greater than the average man. he can not be written by just anybody.

Super Sonic

10-17-2005, 08:15 AM

Anyone have a scan of this kick?

Kayless

10-17-2005, 08:25 AM

Sure. :cool:

Super Sonic

10-17-2005, 08:30 AM

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v491/riku45/Owned.png

Brian888

10-17-2005, 08:34 AM

For the most part, I haven't liked Ult. Cap as a character (although I think he's very interesting, as is the whole Ultimates title). Mostly it's because of the way he's treated Thor, which is syptomatic of his larger problem of "shoot first and never ask questions."

However, the last issue of Ultimates went a long way toward humanizing Ult. Cap and making him more sympathetic. He really is in way over his head in this new century. His best friends are either dead or on death's door from age, values are different, etc. He's a man out of his own time. His dogged persistence in just "doing his job" and never really questioning anything may be a safety mechanism he has adopted to deal with this disconnect.

Hopefully, Ult. Cap will grow beyond his blinders as a result of SHIELD turning on him. Then, we can see that kick-ass Triskelion prison break we all know is coming. :D