Rock of Ages - I still don't get it

[Arvandor]

I have read this story again and again and again - but I still don't get it.


How is it that destroying the Rock in the past, leads to Darkseid conquering the Earth in the future?
How does leaving the Rock intact cause Darkseid to leave Earth alone?
I don't see the connection.

[pennywisdom]

destroying the Rock in the past, leads to Darkseid conquering the Earth in the future?
That's it.

The Philosopher's Stone is the most powerful device in creation. It controls eons and is a map of time and space. Superman destroying the Philosopher's Stone creates a divergent timeline... an alternate reality... in which Darkseid and his minions take over the world. In order to prevent that from happening, they have to return back and prevent Superman from defeating Luthor.

EDIT: Also, keep in mind that Metron, now enslaved by Darkseid, only posed as an ally in order to ensure that Darkseid would win.

[Bored at 3:00AM]

Also keep in mind that lots and lots of drugs makes any Grant Morrison story make perfect sense.

[Grant]

Also keep in mind that lots and lots of drugs makes any Grant Morrison story make perfect sense.

I understand his stuff without drugs just fine.

But then again I might be psychotic.

[ScottDMSimmons]

C'Mon... everyone knows the real dilemma is believing that Plastic Man took out the Joker that easily. :)

--Scott

[Chad G.]

C'Mon... everyone knows the real dilemma is believing that Plastic Man took out the Joker that easily. :)

--Scott

I keep telling people, Eel's a heavy. :)

[TitoJones]

C'Mon... everyone knows the real dilemma is believing that Plastic Man took out the Joker that easily. :)

--Scott

It's not like the Joker is Bruce Lee or anything. Hell I'm sure most DCU civilians us could take him in a fair fist fight.

The Joker isn't the Joker because he can whoop ass, he's the Joker because he's a crazy son of a bitch who does crazy things.

[pennywisdom]

Also keep in mind that lots and lots of drugs makes any Grant Morrison story make perfect sense.
An imagination works just as well.

[Viking Bastard]

An open mind and the will to use it.

[superion]

That's it.

The Philosopher's Stone is the most powerful device in creation. It controls eons and is a map of time and space. Superman destroying the Philosopher's Stone creates a divergent timeline... an alternate reality... in which Darkseid and his minions take over the world. In order to prevent that from happening, they have to return back and prevent Superman from defeating Luthor.

EDIT: Also, keep in mind that Metron, now enslaved by Darkseid, only posed as an ally in order to ensure that Darkseid would win.

In other words there is no explanation. I could never figure it out either from reading the story because Morrison just didn't bother to explain what the cause was.

Why should destroying the Stone create a divergent timeline. What happened differently in that timeline to cause Darkseid to take over the world.

[Paul McEnery]

In other words there is no explanation. I could never figure it out either from reading the story because Morrison just didn't bother to explain what the cause was.

Why should destroying the Stone create a divergent timeline. What happened differently in that timeline to cause Darkseid to take over the world.
Damn if I remember, exactly.

But wouldn't it be that the Philosopher's Stone was a weapon to use against Darkseid?

[Expletive Deleted]

I don't think Morrison showed a specific path from one situation to the other, just that this was the point of divergence.

The Philosopher's stone was basically a MacGuffin.

[YoungG03]

I liked it. Where the phlosopher stone now? In the JLA? And uhm was this stone a brand new thing? But overall in my first (and only) Darkseid story I liked it.

[Expletive Deleted]

Hourman, the time-travelling robot, had it for a while. I have a vague recollection of him crushing it and putting it in his hourglass, but I'm not positive on that.

The idea of the Philosopher's Stone isn't exactly a new one (a quick Google tells me that a villain used a "Philospher's Stone" in ALL-STAR COMICS #42), but I don't know if this particular version was ever used before.

[Gentlegamer]

Hourman, the time-travelling robot, had it for a while. I have a vague recollection of him crushing it and putting it in his hourglass, but I'm not positive on that.Is that related to the Worlogog?

[Expletive Deleted]

Is that related to the Worlogog?The Philosopher's Stone was the Worlogog, disguised.

Metron explained it at the end of "Rock Of Ages."

[Adam Crocker]

I understand his stuff without drugs just fine.

But then again I might be psychotic.

Zoinks! Might I be psychotic as well? :eek:

[pennywisdom]

In other words there is no explanation. I could never figure it out either from reading the story because Morrison just didn't bother to explain what the cause was.
How did Spider-Man get his powers?
He was bitten by a radioactive spider.
How does a radioactive spider transmit super-powers? Stan Lee never explained it! It's a flaw in the story!

How does Superman fly?
His Kryptonian biology derives power from Earth's yellow sun.
How does that work scientifcally? Didn't they ever bother to explain it? Those stupid hacks! You have to be on drugs to fall for this crap!

[Matt Algren]

How did Spider-Man get his powers?
He was bitten by a radioactive spider.
How does a radioactive spider transmit super-powers? Stan Lee never explained it! It's a flaw in the story!

How does Superman fly?
His Kryptonian biology derives power from Earth's yellow sun.
How does that work scientifcally? Didn't they ever bother to explain it? Those stupid hacks! You have to be on drugs to fall for this crap!
The radioactive spider was a means to an end. Lee needed to get to a kid having spider-like powers, and the spider was a simple way to get there, especially when we never went back to look more closely at it.

Superman's powers were there first, and were only explained when Byrne was writing a story that was specifically meant to explain that sort of thing. Unless I'm mistaken, it's been explained in a fairly specific way, and has been made into an Achilles heel of sorts.

The worlogog (Philosopher's Stone) was the whole point of the Rock of Ages story. Everything revolved around understanding what it was. Morrison left a lot of the explaination up in the air, expecting readers to figure out the parts he left out. I wouldn't say that makes him a hack; it just means he needed a better editor.

[pennywisdom]

OK, I definitely see your point. But WAS the Philosopher's Stone really the nexus of the story? You could also create an argument that there were two parallel stories that he was trying to tell simultaneously: one about the JLA of the present fighting against Luthor and the other was about the JLA of the future fighting against Darkseid. The latter tale was really a story about the horrors of a world where Darkseid was supreme dictator and the Stone was merely a storytelling device that facilitated it. The Stone played a huge role, yes, but just because it got more page-time doesn't mean it had a different role than the radioactive spider in Spider-Man.

I really wish Morrison had gone with a different title. "Rock of Ages" first of all reminds me of Def Leppard (NEVER a good thing) and, secondly, makes it seem like the Philosopher's Stone is the thing that defines the story.

I think there should have been two separate arcs with two separate titles, one of the titles being Luthor-related and the other title being Darkseid-related. Then the Philosopher's Stone would be viewed for what it really is, which is just a common link. People would talk about how briliant it was that Morrison used the Stone as a continuity-enabling device.

You would look at the Spider-Man origin story differently if the title were "The Strange Radioactive Spider Experiment!"

[Gingold]

The Worlogog originally appeared in one of Kirby's Super Powers miniserieses- though I'm not sure if they're in continuity. I can't recall if its abilities were explained any better then.

I liked Rock of Ages, though. I think that destroying the stone would've allowed Metron to become Darkseid's puppet, upsetting the balance and letting him take over.

[pennywisdom]

It's kind of shocking how many aspects of the DCU can be traced back to Jack Kirby, an artist too often associated exclusively with Marvel.

[Wesley Dodds]

No, it wasn't the Stone, it was that if the Stone had been destroyed by Superman it wouldn't have been available to restore all the people who died at Star City. The Joker using the stone to bring all those people back to life was the event that determined whether Darkseid would conquer earth. Now, I don't know exactly how, but it's no stretch of the imagination to suppose that one of the people brought back to life would then go on to have some key role in repulsing an invasion by Darkseid -- a scientist, a future world leader -- perhaps even a future superhero.

I took it as an "A Sound of Thunder" change -- a seemingly small change that had far-reaching consequences. Superman destroys the stone, Darkseid turns earth into a concentration camp. Similar to the idea behind Alan Davis' "The Nail" series.

[pennywisdom]

No, it wasn't the Stone, it was that if the Stone had been destroyed by Superman it wouldn't have been available to restore all the people who died at Star City. The Joker using the stone to bring all those people back to life was the event that determined whether Darkseid would conquer earth. Now, I don't know exactly how, but it's no stretch of the imagination to suppose that one of the people brought back to life would then go on to have some key role in repulsing an invasion by Darkseid -- a scientist, a future world leader -- perhaps even a future superhero.
So, in other words, you don't have an exact link between the Stone and Darkseid conquering the world, either. You just took it one small step further than the rest of us.

EDIT: I see what you're getting at, though. That's a very good theory, but it's only a theory. You're taking what's given and assuming that's the reason.... which, as I said is taking it a step further. But there's nothing solid there. They never spell out which Star City citizen specifically is responsible.

[Wesley Dodds]

I think it's pretty obvious -- J'onn says that how the stone's used will determine the future, and the only thing different is that the people dead at Star City are now alive. And that fixes the future. So, it seems pretty obvious that one of the people who died at Star City in the first chapter will now somehow save earth from Darkseid.

[pennywisdom]

I think it's pretty obvious -- J'onn says that how the stone's used will determine the future, and the only thing different is that the people dead at Star City are now alive. And that fixes the future. So, it seems pretty obvious that one of the people who died at Star City in the first chapter will now somehow save earth from Darkseid.
Like I said, it's a good theory. I definitely like it. But I don't have the faintest idea who that person was.

[Wesley Dodds]

Knowing Morrison, we'll find out in a future epic.

But if I had to guess, I'd say it was Shiloh Norman, who's currently being groomed as champion of the New Gods. If Shiloh died at Star City, he wouldn't have been there in the future to defend earth from Darkseid.

That's just my crazy theory. It could have been anyone.

[pennywisdom]

Knowing Morrison, we'll find out in a future epic.

But if I had to guess, I'd say it was Shiloh Norman, who's currently being groomed as champion of the New Gods. If Shiloh died at Star City, he wouldn't have been there in the future to defend earth from Darkseid.

That's just my crazy theory. It could have been anyone.
Wow. You seriously think ahead. That hadn't even occurred to me, and I didn't even conceive that Morrison would follow-up on a story that was a decade old. That's a very cool idea though.

Now you got my hopes up. He had damn well better write it, because now I'm counting on it.

[cactusmaac]

Knowing Morrison, we'll find out in a future epic.

But if I had to guess, I'd say it was Shiloh Norman, who's currently being groomed as champion of the New Gods. If Shiloh died at Star City, he wouldn't have been there in the future to defend earth from Darkseid.

That's just my crazy theory. It could have been anyone.

Shiloh was around in the Giffen\DeMatteis League.

He's not a new character.

I think he was warden of the Slab back in the Morrison JLA days.

[pennywisdom]

Shiloh was around in the Giffen\DeMatteis League.

He's not a new character.
No, but he is being used in a new story. He is being used in a new way. His character is being brought back.

[Wesley Dodds]

Wow. You seriously think ahead. That hadn't even occurred to me, and I didn't even conceive that Morrison would follow-up on a story that was a decade old. That's a very cool idea though.

He already has -- Qwewq, from the third chapter, grew up to be Nebula Man.

[dancj]

Shiloh was around in the Giffen\DeMatteis League.

He's not a new character.

I think he was warden of the Slab back in the Morrison JLA days.

IIRC he was around in the original Jack Kirby run of Mister Miracle too

Dan

[pennywisdom]

IIRC he was around in the original Jack Kirby run of Mister Miracle too

Dan
He was. I've seen pictures of him with Scott, drawn by Jack.

[YoungG03]

Wow. You seriously think ahead. That hadn't even occurred to me, and I didn't even conceive that Morrison would follow-up on a story that was a decade old. That's a very cool idea though.

Now you got my hopes up. He had damn well better write it, because now I'm counting on it.
I know and who is Qweq? That imp?

[Expletive Deleted]

Who is Qweq? That imp?It's the baby universe from Morrison's JLA CLASSIFIED story and SEVEN SOLDIERS. And, apparently, "Rock of Ages."

[Calybos]

You must understand... Grant Morrison is too good to make sense.

[pennywisdom]

You must understand... Grant Morrison is too good to make sense.
No, it's just that you're too clever to understand him.

[PatrickG]

It's the baby universe from Morrison's JLA CLASSIFIED story and SEVEN SOLDIERS. And, apparently, "Rock of Ages."

Yeah. Kyle Rayner went there in Rock of Ages. I totally forgot that point.

The Global Guardians are currently protecting Qwewq but a potential future version of Qwewq was the Nebula Man.

As I understand it, the Nebula Man is part of a race of beings that are sentient universes from the future.

Apparently, universes can eventually evolve into humanoid organisms. (Which makes a kind of bizarre sense to me as the end result of evolution: a universal organism.)

[CoreyB]

Granted, I haven't read the story since soon after it came out. But how does knowing that it was Bill the Butcher of Star City whose tainted meat will accidentally kill Darkseid in the future give you a satisfying story. Why does it have to be one person doing one defining act? Maybe a series of events comes from the city's survival that leads to Darkseid not even going with that plan. There's endless nuances that can occur with a city being there or not being there.