When did Batman become expert at everything? (minor spoiler)

[Jolly Mon]

I can recall a time when Batman was the world's greatest detective and one of the top hand-to-hand combatants in the world. And that was it. He kept a guy around (I think his name was Harold) to build Batmobiles, Whirly-Bats, etc, for him because he couldn't. Now he designs super secret spy satelite systems (how he got them launched I have no idea) which are so advanced that he can't even shut them down (!?) and single handedly reassembles the Red Tornado in a recent issue of JLA. The android was literally smashed, but when Batman is done, there aren't even any cracks (did he use Bondo?). Just wondering if there is anything he can't do (except maintain human relationships :( )?

[Eliseu Gouveia]

There are people who cried blood to get a PhD.
Gifted geniuses have quit at M.I.T.

And yet here is a guy who has the equivalent to a degree at every field known to man, from chemistry to electronic.

Words escape me....

[Bored at 3:00AM]

Batman has always been the smartest superhero in the DCU as long as I can remember...and I can remember pretty far back.

He's not necessarially a genius in every single field, but he's pretty darn proficient in pretty much everything. And has presumably gotten more and more techno-savy thanks to his years within the JLA. I mean, how difficult can making a sentient computer and rebuilding an android be when you've had access to Mother Box on numerous occassions?

[MacQuarrie]

Doesn't that rather dilute the secondary heroes? I mean, if Mister Terrific's whole thing is that he's supposed to be a technological genius and good at everything, and he's still a poor second to Batman in every field, why bother? Why wasn't Batman in the operating room with Dr. Midnight working on Barbara Gordon? Surely his technlogical prowess would have helped in disabling the Brainiac Virus, wouldn't it?

I think Batman should be the best at what he does, which is being the world's greatest detective and a top martial artist/commando/vigilante. Any skill that does not directly apply to stopping crime (such as robotics, artifical intelligence, satellite construction....) should be a skill that Batman does not posess any great proficiency in. He should be a talented layman in such fields, not a world-class expert.

But that's just me.

[phicks]

Burt Ward: "Gosh Batman, is there anything you don't know?"

Adam West: "Oh, of course there is Robin. Several things actually."

[Eliseu Gouveia]

I´d like to know the academic qualification of the writers who had the idea of making him expert on every field known to man.

If they had any idea of the effort and dedication required to get ONE PhD, they´d probably tone it down a notch instead of going "Oh, he´s the 2nd best on every field known to man".

Gifted geniuses work their butts off solely trying to sxcel in their area and never manage to graduate into the top 1o best doctors/chemical engineeers/botanics.

And here comes a guy who´s the second best at everything because he read a couple books while climbing the Hymalaias to go learn some katas with budhist monks.

[Chad G.]

I mean, if Mister Terrific's whole thing is that he's supposed to be a technological genius and good at everything, and he's still a poor second to Batman in every field, why bother?



I don't toatally disagree with your point. But if you rememeber, Bats had actually copied some of Terrifics work before. Remember in the Obsidian Age mess when Tempest is shooting them back in time, and Batman activates some "emergency" JLA code. Terrific actually makes a point of being pleased that Batman had copied his work(the little balls that went around "summoning" people). Not all of Batmans work is original. He has no problem with copying someones elses.

And I always thought that it was AWESOME that he sent one to Slade. Deathstroke in the JLA.

Could it get any better?

[Jolly Mon]

Batman has always been the smartest superhero in the DCU as long as I can remember...and I can remember pretty far back.

He's not necessarially a genius in every single field, but he's pretty darn proficient in pretty much everything. And has presumably gotten more and more techno-savy thanks to his years within the JLA.
I can remember pretty far back too. I remember that the satelite they used to hang out in was built from Kryptonian & Thanagarian technology. Batman didn't build it.

I remember the Batmobile had some pretty cool stuff in it. Thanks to Harold. Batman didn't build it.

Making Batarangs, Bat-lasers, Bat breathing devices, and whatever else he shoves in his utility belt, fine. But there should be some limits on what he can do, otherwise everyone else is not needed.
I mean, how difficult can making a sentient computer and rebuilding an android be when you've had access to Mother Box on numerous occassions?

Granted, these are funnybooks, but think about what you just said. Building a sentient computer or rebuilding an android should be something that only one or two people in the world can do. So why is one of them always got to be Batman?

[Chad G.]

Eliseu Gouveia

Gifted geniuses work their butts off solely trying to sxcel in their area and never manage to graduate into the top 1o best doctors/chemical engineeers/botanics.



I think it's very important we remember that we are talking about a "fictional" character here. This isn't real life. If it were, of course Batman couldn't accomplish 1/1,000 of what he does in the DCU.

Of course, we also wouldn't have Martians walking the earth and grown men that can move at light speed either. Just try and take it with a grain of salt.

[Tadhg]

Okay, I'm not currently reading any of the DCU(Not my thing), but when I heard about the Satellite that Batman built, I assumed people meant he used WayneTech to build it. You're telling me that Bruce himself built it all?

That's it, he's a superhuman.

[Jolly Mon]

I think it's very important we remember that we are talking about a "fictional" character here. This isn't real life. If it were, of course Batman couldn't accomplish 1/1,000 of what he does in the DCU.

Of course, we also wouldn't have Martians walking the earth and grown men that can move at light speed either. Just try and take it with a grain of salt.

Obviously no one is confusing fiction with reality. It gets a little annoying when a point is made about how something could be written better, and someone always has to say that it's "fictional". Saying this equates to "shut up and put up with it". Everyone knows it's fiction, but we also know that a character without any limits gets real boring. Much like Superman when he was throwing planets around.

[Chad G.]

Obviously no one is confusing fiction with reality. It gets a little annoying when a point is made about how something could be written better, and someone always has to say that it's "fictional". Saying this equates to "shut up and put up with it". Everyone knows it's fiction, but we also know that a character without any limits gets real boring. Much like Superman when he was throwing planets around.

Gosh, don't I hate to be annoying. Maybe I was a bit too intense with that. Comic books are a representation an "unreal"(didn't use fictional) reality that we enjoy because it allows us to escape our own dreary 9-5 lives. If everyone had limits, we would know what to expect at the turn of every page. But since it "fictional"(did I use it again?), we can enjoy things that cannot be real. It doesn't mean "shut up". It means try and rationalize a bit more.

[Chad G.]

Okay, I'm not currently reading any of the DCU(Not my thing), but when I heard about the Satellite that Batman built, I assumed people meant he used WayneTech to build it. You're telling me that Bruce himself built it all?

That's it, he's a superhuman.

LOL. Shhhhhhhh. He trys to keep that a secret.

[Alan2099]

The problem is, when people suddenly show abilites that are completley unrealistic or not within their normal limts, it jolts the reader out of his suspension of disbelif and actibvely reminds them that it's just a story.

Now unpredictablity is good, but consistancy needs to go along with it.

If Batman has trouble building a car, he's not going to design a multibillion dollar spy satelite. If Superman can lift a mountain, he's not going to have to strain to lift a bus.

When a character blatantly disregards their limits, that's when the reader looses intrest in the character.

[Agent0]

I can remember pretty far back too. I remember that the satelite they used to hang out in was built from Kryptonian & Thanagarian technology. Batman didn't build it.

True but he did design the security.

I remember the Batmobile had some pretty cool stuff in it. Thanks to Harold. Batman didn't build it.

Actually, Batman did build the very first batmobile. He employed Harold and later on Toyman II because it made things easier for him.

Making Batarangs, Bat-lasers, Bat breathing devices, and whatever else he shoves in his utility belt, fine. But there should be some limits on what he can do, otherwise everyone else is not needed.

Not true.

Between, fighting crime on a nightly basis, being a JLA member, and having a life as Bruce Wayne its very hard for him to build all of his own equipment/gadgets. Anyway, Batman has admitted he's not as smart as the Atom when it comes to science and isn't quite the engineer Steel is. Batman's not the best at everything and has gone to other experts in different areas for help or advice when he needed it.

Granted, these are funnybooks, but think about what you just said. Building a sentient computer or rebuilding an android should be something that only one or two people in the world can do. So why is one of them always got to be Batman?

I'm guessing because his mind is his greatest weapon and for all we know he could've studied Red Tornado a great deal beforehand having come up with protocols for the league and all.

[Forsaken_One]

I think Batman became good at everything about the same time the second Mr. Terrific managed to get like five PhDs and a few extra specialties and Oracle managed to not only kick ass but also become the best hacker EVAR only after she lost the use of her legs.

DC has a long history of making human heros more than human.

[Jolly Mon]

[QUOTE=Agent0]True but he did design the security.
[QUOTE]

Don't recall that. Do you have a source?

[darkkeeperjr]

I remember once that batman had goten a "mentel bullet" from manhunter to IIRC fly a plane or fix something. I like to think john gave him the basic plus what ever level he knows about the subjects.

[Jolly Mon]

I remember once that batman had goten a "mentel bullet" from manhunter to IIRC fly a plane or fix something. I like to think john gave him the basic plus what ever level he knows about the subjects.

Why just Batman then? Why not Flash, he could do everything faster. Why not everyone in the JLA? Was anything like this even hinted at in comics?

[darkkeeperjr]

Ummmm.... cause he's Batman?

[Chad G.]

True but he did design the security.



Actually, Batman did build the very first batmobile. He employed Harold and later on Toyman II because it made things easier for him.



Not true.

Between, fighting crime on a nightly basis, being a JLA member, and having a life as Bruce Wayne its very hard for him to build all of his own equipment/gadgets. Anyway, Batman has admitted he's not as smart as the Atom when it comes to science and isn't quite the engineer Steel is. Batman's not the best at everything and has gone to other experts in different areas for help or advice when he needed it.



I'm guessing because his mind is his greatest weapon and for all we know he could've studied Red Tornado a great deal beforehand having come up with protocols for the league and all.

Well said on all points.

[Chad G.]

Why just Batman then? Why not Flash, he could do everything faster. Why not everyone in the JLA? Was anything like this even hinted at in comics?

It was more than hinted at. J'onn mentally downloaded the ability to fly a 16 mile wide Martain supercarrier into Batmans head during the whole Mageddon mess when Aztek died. Makes a great example about what else he might have given him.

[Chad G.]

DC has a long history of making human heros more than human.

Be careful. Some on this board might have a nasty habit of calling Batman a "metahuman", which is the best joke I've heard it a while ;) . Good point though.

[Jolly Mon]

Ummmm.... cause he's Batman?

BWA-HA-HA!

[Jolly Mon]

I guess what it comes down to, for me, is I liked Batman when he was the best there was at what he did. Not the best at everything. Look back to the O'Neil Batman when he first got back to the "creature of the night". He was the greatest detective, the best non-super fighter, and the smartest guy in the satelite. But that didn't mean he could do everything, he left some things for other people.

Even the apparent supporters of "Batman can do anything, even though he's never shown any previous abilities to invent sentient computers and rebuild androids" are coming up with some real reaching explanations of how he now can. J'onn downloaded how to fly a Martian spaceship into Batman's head. Ok, does it ever say that he did the same with all known sciences? And again, if he could do that, why not make all the other JLA'ers instant experts on everything? In my opinion, it's just not good writing.

Uber-Bat supporters, please feel free to bash. I'm done.

[Chad G.]

I guess what it comes down to, for me, is I liked Batman when he was the best there was at what he did. Not the best at everything. Look back to the O'Neil Batman when he first got back to the "creature of the night". He was the greatest detective, the best non-super fighter, and the smartest guy in the satelite. But that didn't mean he could do everything, he left some things for other people.

I'm not here to bash friend, and I am not totally disagreeing with your point. Quite a few people, even us "uber" Bat fans agree with you. I personally don't.

Even the apparent supporters of "Batman can do anything, even though he's never shown any previous abilities to invent sentient computers and rebuild androids" are coming up with some real reaching explanations of how he now can. J'onn downloaded how to fly a Martian spaceship into Batman's head. Ok, does it ever say that he did the same with all known sciences? And again, if he could do that, why not make all the other JLA'ers instant experts on everything? In my opinion, it's just not good writing.

Uber-Bat supporters, please feel free to bash. I'm done.

Now on this one, you had asked if this had been "hinted" at, and I gave you a specific reference. My point is this: Batman is on the Watchtower with some of the most brilliant minds on Earth, like Ray and John, and some not from this Earth, like J'onn. He has already demonstrated an inate ability to learn at a marvelous pace. So can we assume that he sucks up knowledge all around him like a sponge. With the way he's written today, I don' know what he's capable of. But all I know is right now, current writers make him out as "all-knowing" for lack of a better term. And that doesn't necessarily bother me.

[IamtheRock3]

I guess what it comes down to, for me, is I liked Batman when he was the best there was at what he did. Not the best at everything. Look back to the O'Neil Batman when he first got back to the "creature of the night". He was the greatest detective, the best non-super fighter, and the smartest guy in the satelite. But that didn't mean he could do everything, he left some things for other people.

Even the apparent supporters of "Batman can do anything, even though he's never shown any previous abilities to invent sentient computers and rebuild androids" are coming up with some real reaching explanations of how he now can. J'onn downloaded how to fly a Martian spaceship into Batman's head. Ok, does it ever say that he did the same with all known sciences? And again, if he could do that, why not make all the other JLA'ers instant experts on everything? In my opinion, it's just not good writing.

Uber-Bat supporters, please feel free to bash. I'm done.

Well the thing is ounce he was in the JLA they started writing him on a differnt level sense DC wanted him on the front lines because it sold comics

so you know..he wont die in one Panel


The being able to beats Gods but having trouble with the riddler been kind of a constant for a couple of years.

[IamtheRock3]

and note there was a time in JLA..that almsot EVERY heroes has Expert Science skills and was a Genius of high level.

[Chad G.]

Well the thing is ounce he was in the JLA they started writing him on a differnt level sense DC wanted him on the front lines because it sold comics



BINGO. That hits the nail on the head. Batman is the DC Wolverine. He moves comics off the shelves, which at the final gun, is ALL that matters.

[Agent0]

Don't recall that. Do you have a source?

Batman and the Outsiders #22.

Here's the scanned pic for you to see:
http://img17.imagevenue.com/loc178/th_38b_batsystem.jpg (http://img17.imagevenue.com/img.php?loc=loc178&image=38b_batsystem.jpg)

[IamtheRock3]

batman needs to be with the outsiders again.

[Chad G.]

batman needs to be with the outsiders again.

But wouldn't you miss the wild card dynamic that he brings to the JLA.

[Chris Thomas]

I certainly don't think it dilutes second tier characters. I mean--there are alot of heros that make their living out of being fast OR invulnerable OR strong.. superman can whip most/all of them at any of the three. that's what being one of the big dudes means.

[literally exaggerated]

I certainly don't think it dilutes second tier characters. I mean--there are alot of heros that make their living out of being fast OR invulnerable OR strong.. superman can whip most/all of them at any of the three. that's what being one of the big dudes means.

I agree. Is Atom Smasher somehow lessened because Supes could embarass him in arm wrestling without trying? No. Because he fills one position in the DCU, and Supes fills an entirely different one, even if there powers overlap.

Batman's the same, only instead of speed, strength and durability, he has brains.

[Eliseu Gouveia]

I certainly don't think it dilutes second tier characters. I mean--there are alot of heros that make their living out of being fast OR invulnerable OR strong.. superman can whip most/all of them at any of the three. that's what being one of the big dudes means.

So, to upgrade him so he´s worthy of hanging in the Big Seven they boost him into superhuman levels (because if there´s one thing that brain isn´t is human) even though his main selling card is the fact that he´s "one of us"?

Look at his core fans:
"- I prefer Batman because, unlike Superman, he´s a normal human I can empathise with."

I don´t know any "normal human" who has the equivalent to fifty PhD´s, can deliver olympic athletic performances on every sport on top of being one of the top 5 best martial artists in the world..... all this acchieved in his spare time, when he´s not maintaining a playboy facade that no paparazi (THE most nosy creatures under the sky) in the world could ever crack.

Suspension of disbelief?
What suspension of disbelief?

[titanfan]

racle managed to not only kick ass but also become the best hacker EVAR only after she lost the use of her legs.

Well Oracle is the only one who is semi-believable. It was established when she was Batgirl that she had a photgraphic memory. I believe she could learn things really really quickly.

It's not just Batman in the DCU though. I've read stories where Dr. Light (Kimiyo) seems to have a medical degree in addition to being a scientist. Atom is another hero who seems to have a greater area of knowledge than he should.
It's like this everywhere. People's skills get generalized. In comics or on TV, if someone is a "Doctor", that Doctor can perform multiple surgeries, deliver a baby, diagnose a rare illness, etc. If someone is a computer guru, then can program, build machines, are master hackers, etc. It's unrealistic to expect anyone to have too specified knowledge in the DCU, they have to know enough to move the plot along.

[Bored at 3:00AM]

Granted, these are funnybooks, but think about what you just said. Building a sentient computer or rebuilding an android should be something that only one or two people in the world can do. So why is one of them always got to be Batman?

Exactly, these are funnybooks, I think there should be hundreds of guys out there coming up with sentient computers, androids, death rays, giant robots, mutant sharks and every other kind of insane crap every single day in the DCU. That's what makes this stuff so fun to read. These are superhero comic books. I want Batman to be able to do crap that cool all the time. And plenty of other characters too.

Its not always Batman and Batman isn't the best at everything, he's just very good at a lot of things. I'd say Mister Terrific is certainly smarter than him in a most areas, particularly anything to do with technology. Same with Steel. And while I'm sure Batman is also insanely smart when it comes to science, I'd still say The Atom is the better overall scientist.

Again, the way I look at Batman is this. Batman is the World's Greatest Detective but he's also very, very clever in other areas. So thinking up a sentient supercomputer and rebuilding an android doesn't really seem like something a guy as smart and experienced as Batman shouldn't be able to do.

But, that's just the way I like Batman. There's plenty of other versions of Batman out there for people to enjoy and there's no reason they all have to be consistent with each other...unless continuity is more important to you than enjoying the comics you read, of course.

[Agent0]

So, to upgrade him so he´s worthy of hanging in the Big Seven they boost him into superhuman levels (because if there´s one thing that brain isn´t is human) even though his main selling card is the fact that he´s "one of us"?

You do know, pre-uber JLA Batman that he:
- Hacked into an alien data base
- Came up with a protocol/tech to stop Superman without kryptonite including being able to sneak up on getting passed his senses
- Shown designing league security as shown in the pic I posted
- Built armor to take on Bizarro and was able to expose his weakness eariler on
- Displayed scientific intelligence on par with the Atom when they first met in the league
- Created anti-toxins and such being an expert chemist

Batman has always been this smart its just that writers like Morrison and Waid took it to another level for the sole reason that he faces global and universal threats on a regular basis in JLA. As oppossed to dealing with unpredictable pyschos like Joker or a brilliant mastermind like Ra's Al Ghul. Even in his own titles now they show him pulling off uber feats from time to time.

Look at his core fans:
"- I prefer Batman because, unlike Superman, he´s a normal human I can empathise with."

Batman normal? Since when? Their's nothing normal about Batman even during Year One you could see Batman was very well above normal. Anyone who says Batman is normal doesn't read Batman comics regularly.

I don´t know any "normal human" who has the equivalent to fifty PhD´s, can deliver I olympic athletic performances on every sport on top of being one of the top 5 best martial artists in the world..... all this acchieved in his spare time, when he´s not maintaining a playboy facade that no paparazi (THE most nosy creatures under the sky) in the world could ever crack.

Batman began his mental training shortly after his parents died developing a speeding read ability and photographic memory enabling him to learn things much quicker and easier then the average human. He later disappeared travelling the world in search of the people who would teach him the skills nessecary to become Batman up until the age of 25. Training basically was Bruce's life he didn't live a double life as the playboy Bruce Wayne at the time. You could say he was the most determined human being on earth.

[mwm1331]

Yet no one seems to complain when reed richards over in Marvel is shown to be the smartest in Chemistry, particle physics, geneitcs, electronics, and robotics. No one seems to complain that Peter Parker at age 16 created artifical spider silk (chemistry) and spider tracers (electronics) No one seems to complain that oracle can hack into any and all databases in the world at will.
Batman isn't the best in the DCU at electronics, or physics, or chemistry, or science, hes in the top ten but not number one.
Second most of you are forgetting he has the various wayne companies, a multi billion dollar corporation whose design and manufacturing he uses.
DId batman build brother eye with his bare hands? I don't know but there is nothing in the comics to support that. I always assumed that several of the wayne subsidiaries built some pieces, manufactured others, and put it all together.
No one complains that superman somehow understands all kryptonain technology ( I mean really, could anyone understand even all human tech?)
Batman is good at most scientific disciplines, but not the best.
The difference is he has a muti-billion dollar technology company backing him up.
As to the red tornado, wasn't he built by a guy who managed to not only build a TV that sees into the future (quatum or temporal physics) but a robot as well? (artificial intelligence, robotics, computer programming etc.)
I mean Mr terrific built his T-spheres, which incorporates electronics, some form of propulsion system, computer interfaces, etc, etc, etc.
So What?
And as for "reading a few books on the way up the himalayas to learn katas", didn't bruce go to university and get a degree?
My point is there are characters in the DCU whose intelligence and knowlkedge is just as unrealistic if not more so than Batmans.
Hell look at sivana.

Bottom line the rules of reality in the DCU are a hell of a lot looser than ours, otherwise superman couldn't exist, nor the green lantern nor the flash, batman and other human vigilantes would have died in thier first week, the super genuises like sivana and luthor would never have bothered with crime as they could make so much more as businessmen, and any aliens who landed on earth would die within days due to a lack of immunity to earth diseases.

[mwm1331]

Seriously if you want to talk about unrealistic, the fact that lady shiva is the top martial artist in the DCU is unrealistic. She weighs in at what 110 120 at most?
Yes shes skilled but unless her skill is litterally 3 times that of everyman she would get her ass kicked regularly if only becuase she doesn't have the weight, power, or reach of an average size man.
I mean think about, would you expect a boxing light weight even if he were the most skilled to be able to take out a heavy weight like hollyfield or tyson?
Why doesn't anyone complain that dinah lance, can take out savant in a straight up fight?
Thier skills are on par yet he outweighs, out reaches, and out powers her by two to one.
So to say that batman being really smart is too unrealistic is pure D Bullsh*t.

[Jolly Mon]

Batman and the Outsiders #22.

Here's the scanned pic for you to see:
http://img17.imagevenue.com/loc178/th_38b_batsystem.jpg (http://img17.imagevenue.com/img.php?loc=loc178&image=38b_batsystem.jpg)

Cool, I forgot about that. Thanks for the pic.

[Alan2099]

Seriously if you want to talk about unrealistic, the fact that lady shiva is the top martial artist in the DCU is unrealistic. She weighs in at what 110 120 at most?
Yes shes skilled but unless her skill is litterally 3 times that of everyman she would get her ass kicked regularly if only becuase she doesn't have the weight, power, or reach of an average size man.
I mean think about, would you expect a boxing light weight even if he were the most skilled to be able to take out a heavy weight like hollyfield or tyson?
Why doesn't anyone complain that dinah lance, can take out savant in a straight up fight?
Thier skills are on par yet he outweighs, out reaches, and out powers her by two to one.
So to say that batman being really smart is too unrealistic is pure D Bullsh*t.
One skill. Yopu're describing characters that have one skill. They fight. Batman has how many skills?

Every character has a gimic. It's what they do. A gimic. Somewhere along the lines batman's gimic became, "having just about all the gimics."

I have no problem with a smart Batman. However a Batman that works with new Gods technology, can fight with the greatest martial arts masters in the world, have huge amounts of political pull, can figure out how to beat cosmic powered beings by watching them for a few seconds, keeps plot devices handy for every thing that can possibly happen, doesn't sleep, and all that other stuff he does is a bit too much.

What's wrong with Batman actually being street level?

[Chad G.]

Seriously if you want to talk about unrealistic, the fact that lady shiva is the top martial artist in the DCU is unrealistic. She weighs in at what 110 120 at most?
Yes shes skilled but unless her skill is litterally 3 times that of everyman she would get her ass kicked regularly if only becuase she doesn't have the weight, power, or reach of an average size man.
I mean think about, would you expect a boxing light weight even if he were the most skilled to be able to take out a heavy weight like hollyfield or tyson?
Why doesn't anyone complain that dinah lance, can take out savant in a straight up fight?
Thier skills are on par yet he outweighs, out reaches, and out powers her by two to one.
So to say that batman being really smart is too unrealistic is pure D Bullsh*t.

No my friend. I'm afraid not. Size doesn't matter in martial arts. I'm sorry, but it doesn't. Its speed and placement. Boxing isn;t a good example here. You can only use your hands, and there are only 2 paces to hit. The mid-section and the head. Whereas in martial arts, placement is key. You're out to disable your opponent. At 225, I normally have 45-50 pounds on some of the other students in my class. But I have gotten leveled by a more skilled female combatant before who was a more advanced martial artist than I was, and I've trained in various contact sports for years. And I'm not too proud to admit that. You can be as big and bad as you want, but you have to connect to make it count. On impact, sure, a larger opponent lands a more powerful blow, but only if that blow ever lands on your smaller opponent. To say that just because someone is a female they can't get the job done strikes me as rather sexist.

[Chad G.]

.

What's wrong with Batman actually being street level?

That is going to take some real work. Street level Batman has been long gone for quite sometime. How are the writers going to "de-power"(god, that sounds pathetic to say) him now?

[Alan2099]

Easy. Start writting him differently.

[prand_2002]

Funny thing is even with Batman being an expert at everything he is getting his ass handed to him by almost everyone. Lets see Hush, Black Mask,Superman,Jason Todd,OMACs.....it goes on.

[Simon Garth]

DC has a long history of making human heros more than human.

The single biggest problem I have with DC, is that they cannot resist continually making their heroes ever more powerful / intelligent etc.

the original poster was right - Batman should be a martial artist / detective / nutcase who thinks dressing like a bat is a good idea. He should have a good tinkerers ability in many fields but shouldn't be expert in all of them (or even any of them). Maybe if Bats needed help from other experts occasionally, then (a) maybe that would make some good story hooks, and (b) maybe he wouldn't be a sociopathic asshole.

Similarly, a post-crisis Wally Flash could run at the speed of sound, which is a useful power and believable in a comic book contest. He shouldn't be able to run at the speed of light, which is just stupid.

[PeteGunn]

Is Bats as good of a police scientist as Barry Allen was?

[davros42]

Is Bats as good of a police scientist as Barry Allen was?

Batman is better than everybody at everything. :p

[trickster]

Okay, I'm not currently reading any of the DCU(Not my thing), but when I heard about the Satellite that Batman built, I assumed people meant he used WayneTech to build it. You're telling me that Bruce himself built it all?

That's it, he's a superhuman.



Everyone knows it's fiction, but we also know that a character without any limits gets real boring. Much like Superman when he was throwing planets around.


You mean Superman stopped being boring? How long was I asleep?

Any way, mwm1331 hit the nail on the head. There are plenty of other characters who aren't even geniuses like Batman as stated in Countdown (Superman is far from a genius) and even if they were, they wouldn't be able to do all the things they do. And some of their feats are even more outrageous then Batman's, because they don't have a fortune bigger than Luthor's to back them up. At least for Batman we know that Waynetech has contracts with the military, but Spiderman for instance? How can he even afford all that stuff? Batman can setup a dummy corporation and order a Batmobile or a satellite built through it.
Let's ge this straight. Batman is sort of DCU's Iron Man. He has money and he knows what he needs so he can order it built. You don't have to be an engineer to order cement and bricks when you're building a house. Batman doesn't have to be a researcher to know what he needs.
Like he did in the movie. He knew he needed protection for his skull. What did he do? Order reinforced hoods from China. Etc.


deliver a baby

So what, those women in the middle ages were geniuses for helping deliver a baby? Are you serious?

[Bob Violence]

That is going to take some real work. Street level Batman has been long gone for quite sometime. How are the writers going to "de-power"(god, that sounds pathetic to say) him now?
They could start by getting rid of the Batplane. Everytime I see it, "Jet Pilot Batman" makes "Crime Fighting Batman" seem like a long forgotten cousin. Plus the concept is just plain absurd, fighter jets require serious maintenance, lots of fuel and constant training and I think some people in Gotham might notice one taking off on their street.

[Chad G.]

Easy. Start writting him differently.


No, no. You miss my point. How will the writers justify him just "forgetting" how to do so much that he knows???

[Matt Algren]

No, no. You miss my point. How will the writers justify him just "forgetting" how to do so much that he knows???
Easy. Start writing him differently.

If you must have an explanation, off the top of my head...

-Batman admits that he really didn't do any of that stuff, he had a network of industry and medical experts working for Waynetech, and he had them do it all.

-Batman gets hit with an extra-big hit of forgetful gas from, I don't know, Two Face. Or Joker. Or that alligator guy.

-Those books all took place on Earth-3495723021, where Batman can do everything. He accidentally destroyed the planet with a poory-placed "Hn.", so we won't be seeing that Batman anymore.

-That wacky fat Alfred did it.

Anyone else want to add some?

[Forsaken_One]

Yellow fear monster.

[Alan2099]

Massive head trauma. He ends up forgetting lots of things.

Killed and replaced by the Batman of Earth-Pretty-much-the-same-as-this-one-except-Batman's-not-as-smart.

Realizes that he totally and completley screwed up with the Brother Eye stuff. Actually asks from some of his knowledge to be mind wiped.

It's revealed that Batman was captured eyars ago and replaced by a skru... er... I mean White martian.

Total Mental Breakdown.

Somebody re-writes reality AGAIN.

bat-mite was secretly making him smarter. Now he stops.

[Bored at 3:00AM]

What's wrong with Batman actually being street level?

Nothing wrong with that idea at all. And there's plenty of really good Batman stories where he is definitely in his vaguely "realistic" street level hero incarnation. However, the Batman who's a member of the Justice League is not a street level hero, he's one of the World's Greatest Heroes, operating at a whole other level than the street level incarnation.

Again, there's no reason different takes on the same character can't co-exist, the only thing stopping this would be blind obedience to continuity.

[IamtheRock3]

Batman thing is being the TOP of what human can achive

He a human working with GODS!!!!


writer like to show what a plucky human can do..and disastarate

And really nearly all the JLA charcter seem to be UBER geniuses. Most heroes seem to be scientificy genius

Heck a high school drop out like spidey learn quatum Phyis while he was a teen and built stuff for his spidey suit

In fact MOST of your A list comic heroes would make STEPHEN HAWKINS sound like the guy from "I am Sam"

so bats aint unique in that regard
least he explain how he knows his stuff

[Chad G.]

high school drop out like spidey

Oh lord, don't get me started on what a pud Parker is. ;)

[handOFfate]

I would say that it's been fairly well established that Mr.Terrific is the smartest overall superhero in DC. He approaches Reed Richards-like intelligence.
But it's not a stretch to say Batman is a close number two. he's been portrayed as a supergenius pretty much since the beginning, so I've got no problem with him doing unbelievable projects like rebuilding Red Tornado.

[Gentlegamer]

I guess what it comes down to, for me, is I liked Batman when he was the best there was at what he did. Batman = Wolverine? :eek:

[mwm1331]

No my friend. I'm afraid not. Size doesn't matter in martial arts. I'm sorry, but it doesn't. Its speed and placement. Boxing isn;t a good example here. You can only use your hands, and there are only 2 paces to hit. The mid-section and the head. Whereas in martial arts, placement is key. You're out to disable your opponent. At 225, I normally have 45-50 pounds on some of the other students in my class. But I have gotten leveled by a more skilled female combatant before who was a more advanced martial artist than I was, and I've trained in various contact sports for years. And I'm not too proud to admit that. You can be as big and bad as you want, but you have to connect to make it count. On impact, sure, a larger opponent lands a more powerful blow, but only if that blow ever lands on your smaller opponent. To say that just because someone is a female they can't get the job done strikes me as rather sexist.

More skilled is the key concept.
When skill is equal size does matter. Thats why every contact sport in the world incluing kickboxing, UFC, etc. all have weight classes. The simple fact is a good big guy will beat a good little guy.
When skill is unequeal then yes the more skilled can win, however skill is not the be all end all. Unless you feel that lady shiva is twice as good as every other human in the DCU then no it doesn't make sense.

[Bob Violence]

I would say that it's been fairly well established that Mr.Terrific is the smartest overall superhero in DC. He approaches Reed Richards-like intelligence.
But it's not a stretch to say Batman is a close number two. he's been portrayed as a supergenius pretty much since the beginning, so I've got no problem with him doing unbelievable projects like rebuilding Red Tornado.
It's stuff like that that bugs me. Batman should farm stuff like that out to specialists. I've always seen Batman as the kind of guy who doesn't sit around the lab unless it's a life or death kind of thing. I don't think he's such a hands-on guy he has to be an expert on everything. Why can't Mr T work on Red Tornado? It's closer to his specialty.

[Alan2099]

I'd pay to see Mr. T work on Red Tornado. Especially if the rest of the A-Team got a cameo.

[gorosaurus]

I can recall a time when Batman was the world's greatest detective and one of the top hand-to-hand combatants in the world. And that was it. He kept a guy around (I think his name was Harold) to build Batmobiles, Whirly-Bats, etc, for him because he couldn't. Now he designs super secret spy satelite systems (how he got them launched I have no idea) which are so advanced that he can't even shut them down (!?) and single handedly reassembles the Red Tornado in a recent issue of JLA. The android was literally smashed, but when Batman is done, there aren't even any cracks (did he use Bondo?). Just wondering if there is anything he can't do (except maintain human relationships :( )?

I'm still wondering what happend to the Elemental that resides (resided?) in Red Tornado. It didn't appear when RT's shell got cracked. As for Batman reassembling him, he's probably got the blueprints; especially since Red Tordado had gotten demolished a few times before. Red Tornado probably has a "med ID bracelet" that says "in case of malfunction or destruction, please download T.O. Morrow's notes from JLA Watchtower."

[Chad G.]

Red Tornado probably has a "med ID bracelet" that says "in case of malfunction or destruction, please download T.O. Morrow's notes from JLA Watchtower."

LMAO

:D

[Jolly Mon]

Batman thing is being the TOP of what human can achive

He a human working with GODS!!!!


writer like to show what a plucky human can do..and disastarate

And really nearly all the JLA charcter seem to be UBER geniuses. Most heroes seem to be scientificy genius

Heck a high school drop out like spidey learn quatum Phyis while he was a teen and built stuff for his spidey suit

In fact MOST of your A list comic heroes would make STEPHEN HAWKINS sound like the guy from "I am Sam"

so bats aint unique in that regard
least he explain how he knows his stuff

I hardly know where to start.

"Nearly all the JLA seem to UBER geniuses" Let's check who's been in JLA lately:
Batman? Check
Superman? Off and on, so...Check
Flash? He fixes cars, so...No
Martian Manhunter? Haven't seen him do anything scientific for awhile, but he has in the past, so being generous...Check
Green Lantern (John)? Architect, pretty smart but UBER genius....No
Green Arrow? Makes arrows (cool arrows, but still arrows)....No
Hawkman? Hits things with mace....No
Zatanna? Talks backwards....No
Aquaman? Please...No
Green Lantern (Hal)? Let's see, test pilot, insurance salesman, toy salesman, etc.....No
Elongated Man? *Snicker*...No
Atom? Hasn't been seen lately, but I'll throw you a bone cause he was in ID...Check

So by my count (and being REAL generous) thats 4 UBERs, to 8 NOTs. If I left anyone out (that's been there lately), please let me know.

Next... Ok, you don't like Spider-Man, but can we stick to facts? He was established as a science whiz in his first appearance, he graduated high school, went on to college on a science scholarship, graduated, went on to post-graduate and probably has a Phd by now (haven't been reading for years). So he is not a "high school dropout". Also "sentient computer" does not equal "web-shooter".

Next... "Most A list comic heroes..." Just plain silly. For every super who built his own tech to become "fill-in-the-blank-man", I can site a dozen who lucked into it.

[Jolly Mon]

No, no. You miss my point. How will the writers justify him just "forgetting" how to do so much that he knows???

So, if I am understanding your point, writers shouldn't suddenly change a character's capabilities without establishing or explaining it in some way?

Wasn't that the premise behind my initial post? Isn't that somewhat inconsistent with your UBER-Bat position?

[titanfan]

So what, those women in the middle ages were geniuses for helping deliver a baby? Are you serious?

How often do you see a surgeon or scientist delivering a baby in a hospital for someone else when there's an obstetrician nearby?

[Jolly Mon]

How often do you see a surgeon or scientist delivering a baby in a hospital for someone else when there's an obstetrician nearby?

A lot of that is due to sky-high malpractice rates involved with ob-gyn, rather than level of difficulty. :D

[Chad G.]

So, if I am understanding your point, writers shouldn't suddenly change a character's capabilities without establishing or explaining it in some way?

Wasn't that the premise behind my initial post? Isn't that somewhat inconsistent with your UBER-Bat position?

Trust me, you didn't understand my point. I see NO problem with Batman, Batdick, Batgod, or whatever people want to call him. Right now, I like him more than ever. I'm saying there is no easily explainable way for him to suddenly go POOF and forget how to do half of what he does. And according to several posts on this and other threads, some would like Bats to revert to cro-magnon ability and just catch muggers. He is where he is. What is the point in a U-turn short of jealousy over what some may feel is having their favorite characters forgotten.

[Matt Algren]

What is the point in a U-turn short of jealousy over what some may feel is having their favorite characters forgotten.
Better stories. Believe it or not, it really is that simple.

[IamtheRock3]

I hardly know where to start.

"Nearly all the JLA seem to UBER geniuses" Let's check who's been in JLA lately:
Batman? Check
Superman? Off and on, so...Check
Flash? He fixes cars, so...No
Martian Manhunter? Haven't seen him do anything scientific for awhile, but he has in the past, so being generous...Check
Green Lantern (John)? Architect, pretty smart but UBER genius....No
Green Arrow? Makes arrows (cool arrows, but still arrows)....No
Hawkman? Hits things with mace....No
Zatanna? Talks backwards....No
Aquaman? Please...No
Green Lantern (Hal)? Let's see, test pilot, insurance salesman, toy salesman, etc.....No
Elongated Man? *Snicker*...No
Atom? Hasn't been seen lately, but I'll throw you a bone cause he was in ID...Check

So by my count (and being REAL generous) thats 4 UBERs, to 8 NOTs. If I left anyone out (that's been there lately), please let me know.

Next... Ok, you don't like Spider-Man, but can we stick to facts? He was established as a science whiz in his first appearance, he graduated high school, went on to college on a science scholarship, graduated, went on to post-graduate and probably has a Phd by now (haven't been reading for years). So he is not a "high school dropout". Also "sentient computer" does not equal "web-shooter".

Next... "Most A list comic heroes..." Just plain silly. For every super who built his own tech to become "fill-in-the-blank-man", I can site a dozen who lucked into it.

Martian manhunter been known to working on science project in his book, master Detetive too
Barry Allen use to be a Super Genius
Even wally built contraptions to help him...Read some of Flash books he get Tece when the time comes. Can think at light speed too


Hawkman, Green Arrow, Zantana not on The JLA if your argument current JLA

It just most of these guys DONT NEED to pull scientific..stuff..but they CAN. The fact they dont need to..Let DC STILLS make then uber genius..is to me worst then Batman

But if you going through some member who been on IC

BOOSTER GOLD- Genius...creates Tece every now and Then
mr Terrifc- Genius
Blue beetle- Bulit his Car, and his Tece


Who says I didnt like Spiderman?
Like just applying there a lot of Super Genius in comic. When even your nerdy Teen can put Stephen Hawkins to shame at the age of 15

[Eliseu Gouveia]

What is the point in a U-turn short of jealousy over what some may feel is having their favorite characters forgotten.


I keep seeing this argument popping out everywhere:
"Fans are jealous because Batman can do this and that."
No, we´re not.

I used to love Ironman.
Smart tech genious who built an armor that made him this and that.
At some stage, some writer decided that Tony was so smart that he could mess around with alien tech, understand concepts designed by civilizxations thousand of years ahead of our time and build plot device armours that could take anything in the universe.
My interest in the character flew away with my suspension of disbelief.

I used to love Daredevil.
Back in the day when he was a human who´d got back home with his face turned into paté after encounters with mere street hooligans.
Now, he´s the be-all end-all of everything martial arts, dodging bullets in bullet time and owning everyone short of Spider-man.
Look how fast my interest and my suspension of disbelief went >Banf!<

I never liked Batman.
In my eyes, he´s a fascist wet dream.
However, there was some potential in him, especially the human angle which had oodles of material to explore.
The moment he became Batgod, guess what happened to that human angle?
Same thing as any potential interest I could have had in the character

[Chad G.]

I keep seeing this argument popping out everywhere:
"Fans are jealous because Batman can do this and that."
No, we´re not.



Wonderful post. But you obviously didn't read mine very well. I didn't say jealous because he "could do this and that". I think I SAID, that people were jealous over having their favorite characters forgotten and pushed to the side in favor of the promotion of the Batman line of comics and the Bat family. How many Bats related comics are there out there, Versus how many Hawkman? Or Green Arrow? Or Green Lantern? Its an easy point to understand I would have thought. DC knows that Batman moves product. And no matter how much we like to debate jealousy over Batman, the comic book industy os just that, an industry. A business. And to survive, a business must make profit. SO if that means 20 Batman titles, yippee. I don't have a problem with that.

In my eyes, he´s a fascist wet dream.


:cool: Really? I'm sorry.

[Eliseu Gouveia]

Wonderful post. But you obviously didn't read mine very well. I didn't say jealous because he "could do this and that". I think I SAID, that people were jealous over having their favorite characters forgotten and pushed to the side in favor of the promotion of the Batman line of comics and the Bat family. How many Bats related comics are there out there, Versus how many Hawkman? Or Green Arrow? Or Green Lantern? Its an easy point to understand I would have thought. DC knows that Batman moves product. And no matter how much we like to debate jealousy over Batman, the comic book industy os just that, an industry. A business. And to survive, a business must make profit. SO if that means 20 Batman titles, yippee. I don't have a problem with that.

My apologies, then.
Still, the jealousy issue is uncalled for.

I could care less if Batman sells 100,000 more copies than my favorite titles or has a fan following the size of Kansas.

I like more obscure characters.
Like Cloak and Dagger or Batgirl.

Heck, I´m more concerned over the fact that my favorite DC character, Supergirl isn´t the Supergirl I grew up with than the fact that she sells less comics than Bats.

[IamtheRock3]

My apologies, then.
Still, the jealousy issue is uncalled for.

I could care less if Batman sells 100,000 more copies than my favorite titles or has a fan following the size of Kansas.

I like more obscure characters.
Like Cloak and Dagger or Batgirl.

Heck, I´m more concerned over the fact that my favorite DC character, Supergirl isn´t the Supergirl I grew up with than the fact that she sells less comics than Bats.


Think he saying the fact Batman takes the spot light so those obscure character cant shine may piss people off. Think that least SOME people REAL beef with Bats knowing this stuff.

his argument the reason why he does..is comic sale when he takes the spot light

Really think about it kind of OUT OF CHARCTER for him to be a regular team member on the JLA..help them from time to time but it really not his thing

But DC hear CHING CHING..and people seem to LIKE it when they have him on there. So Batman can take the spot ligt

[Chad G.]

My apologies, then.
Still, the jealousy issue is uncalled for.

I could care less if Batman sells 100,000 more copies than my favorite titles or has a fan following the size of Kansas.

I like more obscure characters.
Like Cloak and Dagger or Batgirl.

Heck, I´m more concerned over the fact that my favorite DC character, Supergirl isn´t the Supergirl I grew up with than the fact that she sells less comics than Bats.

I see your point, and I am not in total disagreement. I also like Batgirl. And I think the sun rises and sets by Deathstroke. But I don't like or dislike a character based on their popularity. I base my judgement on a character on how they appeal to me as a person.

[Wonder Dude]

bat-mite was secretly making him smarter. Now he stops.

Excellent Post :D

[trickster]

How often do you see a surgeon or scientist delivering a baby in a hospital for someone else when there's an obstetrician nearby?
How many people do you know that can even stop a hemorhage (spelling?) nowadays? What's you point?

[Jolly Mon]

Trust me, you didn't understand my point. I see NO problem with Batman, Batdick, Batgod, or whatever people want to call him. Right now, I like him more than ever. I'm saying there is no easily explainable way for him to suddenly go POOF and forget how to do half of what he does. And according to several posts on this and other threads, some would like Bats to revert to cro-magnon ability and just catch muggers. He is where he is. What is the point in a U-turn short of jealousy over what some may feel is having their favorite characters forgotten.

We agree, there is no easily explainable way for him to suddenly forget all of the things he has been doing.

My point is there was never any even slightly explained way of how he knew how to do them in the first place.

My solution is just as easy. They had him suddenly able to build sentient computers without explaination, he just did it. So don't explain how he can't do it anymore, just don't have him do it. The character would still be the smartest guy on the JLA, he would just delegate the tech that he doesn't need to understand. Easy.

[IamtheRock3]

We agree, there is no easily explainable way for him to suddenly forget all of the things he has been doing.

My point is there was never any even slightly explained way of how he knew how to do them in the first place.

My solution is just as easy. They had him suddenly able to build sentient computers without explaination, he just did it. So don't explain how he can't do it anymore, just don't have him do it. The character would still be the smartest guy on the JLA, he would just delegate the tech that he doesn't need to understand. Easy.


Well not like this a Recent thing

Blind Justice least Explain a good portion of this stuff. He does have speed reaing and Photographic reading

Sure a stress..but that enough Rope in a comic book world..where training for few days can you make you a kung fu master that can take out a room full of thugs, Henchmen and career criminals

[rickfury188]

As it has been stated before, Batman should be highly skilled in various fields. He is not "normal" as most people say. Yes, he may be human, but he can learn faster than most people and is able to attain the knowledge easier. I always pictured a young Bruce Wayne a short time after his parent's death sitting in his library spending hours reading everything he could get his hands on because he realized that one day he would need it. He read and exercised his mind before he could exercise his body. Batman should be an expert in practically every single martial art on the face of the Earth because he trained his entire life, and is still training and practicing every chance he gets. The knowledge he gains from martial arts can be applied to other skills he has such as: reading body language to know what his opponent is doing/thinking, knowing how to position one's self to take down someone bigger or faster than him, understanding the human anatomy. Another good point is that he is considered The World's Greatest Detective. According to Wikipedia, a detective does street work, analyzes forensic evidence, and records investigations. He has to have a broad range of knowledge for this. My last thought is this: I always picture Batman as working behind the scenes making things possible by doing research or carefully planning for the JLA.

[karasu]

Batman should be an expert in practically every single martial art on the face of the Earth because he trained his entire life, and is still training and practicing every chance he gets.


There are over 300 chinese martial arts alone. Let alone martial arts from every other country on the planet. can't the guy just be a great fighter, and a great detective? What's all of this "best" garbage.

[saintsaucey]

Okay, I don't have a lot of time here because my ride will be shortyly.

1. Harold is dead. It happened in Hush

2. Technically he didn't design the satalite the way we saw it. Alex Luthor stole it and hid it in a slightly different reality and upgraded it which is why Bruce couldn't find it. Maybe he used the mother box to transport it there, maybe he used a javalin, maybe he tricked superman to take it there for him. He now uses the new Toyman to build his stuff. got to go rides here.

[Choppa]

And in S/B he relies on that Japanese kid to build him stuff. And yeah we can thank Jeph Loeb for killing Harold for no obvious reason.

[literally exaggerated]

I honestly don't see the big deal. Reed Richards is presented as being smarter than Batman by a good margin, no one seems to care about that. And Dr. Doom is not only smarter than Bats by a good amount, he's also got the same "great at absolutely everything" thing going on, only he knows magic too. Most fans don't seem to have a problem with that. Why should Batman be held to a completely different standard? Yeah, many or his enemiess are street levellers, but many are not, and even those that are are typically supergeniuses and/or in some way make use of scifi tech. Batman nearly singlehandedly protects an entire city of those guys, while simultaneously lending a hand in fighting off massive, earth-threatening threats alongside aliens and gods. If this was Batman Begins or Year One or something and he started building all that crazy stuff, I could understand the outcry, but Batman hasn't been held to any sort of standard of realism for like 90% of his existence, so whats the problem with him being a comic book level supergenius?

[shaunyc56]

Actually I don't think Batman is presented as knowing everything. He as appropriated Tsphere tech, used Harold, and the new Toyman. Batman is gifted, and has alot of training, but his best skills are finding people w/ the skills to accentuate his own.

[Francis]

I don't honestly see the problem with Batman having built a satellite. What he'll have done is taken one computer module, one power unit (probably actually two - one solar, and one battery), one thruster (for minor orbital adjustments) and a few other things and bolted them all together. Then he'll have put it in space and voilla, instant satellite.

There is one reason - and one reason alone - why building a satellite is hard. The restrictions on what can be put on a satellite are very tight because there are a lot of space and weight restrictions on what a rocket (or shuttle) will take up and put in orbit. Batman is not affected by this restriction as he has access to Martian/Thangarian/Rannian/New Gods/Random Alien tech (probably borrowed from the Watchtower) that could lift something the size of a towerblock. Therefore he can put just about anything into orbit - meaning that putting any sort of satellite into orbit is not going to be a problem. Meaning that he can build it entirely out of stock parts and seriously over-engineer it in places. In short, it isn't as hard as it looks.

I again have no problem with Batman having designed the JLA security system. He's one of the experts in the DCU at breaking and entering (Selena's probably better, as are a few others) meaning that he knows how to place security to make breaking and entering hard. Set a thief to catch a thief... He's also an expert (again as a side effect of his detective skills) at dealing with metahuman abilities - meaning that he knows what sort of defences are likely to slow or stop metahumans. So the types and placement of such security devices are certainly in line with his skills. And finally who says he did a great job of JLA security given the number of times the watchtower's been broken into?

Anti-toxins aren't as bad as people think. There's no such thing as an antidote (except in incredibly rare cases IIRC). What you need for an anti-toxin is actually an antagonist to the toxin - something that does the opposite thing to the toxin in a similar timeframe. This mostly takes getting a clear idea of the symptoms caused, and using a database to get the closest match to the reverse symptoms (to bring the overall effect into the region the body can take - and then heal itself). The reason anti-toxins are such a problem is that used improperly, they are every bit as damaging as the original toxin was - and there is almost no margin of error.

As for building armour to take Bizarro on, you really think that his files don't have armour designs that have been used to take superman on in them? And exposing his weakness is more being a detective than anything else.

And a lot of "his" inventions are either purloined from other sources (with the serial numbers filed off and a bat logo stuck on - most of those who recognise this take it as a compliment) or more or less stock parts stuck together in unconventional ways. And it was mentioned (IIRC in the Red Hood arc) that Kord Industries had been inventing most of the gadgets Batman used.

In short, most of the feats mentioned (barring the hacking into an alien database - which is impossible) are either close to Batman's core skills or a lot easier than they look if you have the right knowledge. And PhD level isn't actually as useful as many of you seem to think - the study for the PhD is (after the normal degree) largely three years of study on an extremely obscure point on the fringes of knowledge - Batman has the absolute opposite - he knows well-trodden paths and is very good at fitting them together.

[hmnut73]

I honestly don't see the big deal. Reed Richards is presented as being smarter than Batman by a good margin, no one seems to care about that. And Dr. Doom is not only smarter than Bats by a good amount, he's also got the same "great at absolutely everything" thing going on, only he knows magic too. Most fans don't seem to have a problem with that. Why should Batman be held to a completely different standard? Yeah, many or his enemiess are street levellers, but many are not, and even those that are are typically supergeniuses and/or in some way make use of scifi tech. Batman nearly singlehandedly protects an entire city of those guys, while simultaneously lending a hand in fighting off massive, earth-threatening threats alongside aliens and gods. If this was Batman Begins or Year One or something and he started building all that crazy stuff, I could understand the outcry, but Batman hasn't been held to any sort of standard of realism for like 90% of his existence, so whats the problem with him being a comic book level supergenius?

I do like the comparsion between Bats and Richards and Doom, because a) there are more than a few people I know who say Bats is smarter than both of them but I disagree.

I guess this clears up for me what the problem is. It's not so much that Bats is a supergenius it's that he is a supergenius when it fits his needs to be one.

Both Reed and Doom have always been Supergeniuses in science and/or magic and that's fine, but if I picked up an issue of the Fantastic Four and it had Reed taking down a bad guy using super advanced Martial Arts all of a sudden, I would totally roll my eyes.

Batman's genius is totally selective, he is a genius to the problem right in front of him, if he is really an expert in all these science fields, robotics, buisness, crime fighting, martial arts and more, then how can not we believe this uber-human mind can't find a way to build a prison that will hold the Joker. Or how can we believe that he can't for see every crime that will happen in Gotham and before it happens, in fact with all his skills, training and money he should have long ago figured out a way to stop crime in at least Gotham if not the world.

Reed doesn't have the passion for fighting actual crime that Batman does, he is at his heart a scienctist and an explorer so the things he does with his genuis are related to that. Doom builds things to take over the world, he uses his genuis for that goal. Batman rarely uses his genuis to actually persue his goal of crime fighting unless something is right in front of his face that requires him to be a genuis at that moment.

[shaunyc56]

I don't honestly see the problem with Batman having built a satellite. What he'll have done is taken one computer module, one power unit (probably actually two - one solar, and one battery), one thruster (for minor orbital adjustments) and a few other things and bolted them all together. Then he'll have put it in space and voilla, instant satellite.

There is one reason - and one reason alone - why building a satellite is hard. The restrictions on what can be put on a satellite are very tight because there are a lot of space and weight restrictions on what a rocket (or shuttle) will take up and put in orbit. Batman is not affected by this restriction as he has access to Martian/Thangarian/Rannian/New Gods/Random Alien tech (probably borrowed from the Watchtower) that could lift something the size of a towerblock. Therefore he can put just about anything into orbit - meaning that putting any sort of satellite into orbit is not going to be a problem. Meaning that he can build it entirely out of stock parts and seriously over-engineer it in places. In short, it isn't as hard as it looks.

I again have no problem with Batman having designed the JLA security system. He's one of the experts in the DCU at breaking and entering (Selena's probably better, as are a few others) meaning that he knows how to place security to make breaking and entering hard. Set a thief to catch a thief... He's also an expert (again as a side effect of his detective skills) at dealing with metahuman abilities - meaning that he knows what sort of defences are likely to slow or stop metahumans. So the types and placement of such security devices are certainly in line with his skills. And finally who says he did a great job of JLA security given the number of times the watchtower's been broken into?

Anti-toxins aren't as bad as people think. There's no such thing as an antidote (except in incredibly rare cases IIRC). What you need for an anti-toxin is actually an antagonist to the toxin - something that does the opposite thing to the toxin in a similar timeframe. This mostly takes getting a clear idea of the symptoms caused, and using a database to get the closest match to the reverse symptoms (to bring the overall effect into the region the body can take - and then heal itself). The reason anti-toxins are such a problem is that used improperly, they are every bit as damaging as the original toxin was - and there is almost no margin of error.

As for building armour to take Bizarro on, you really think that his files don't have armour designs that have been used to take superman on in them? And exposing his weakness is more being a detective than anything else.

And a lot of "his" inventions are either purloined from other sources (with the serial numbers filed off and a bat logo stuck on - most of those who recognise this take it as a compliment) or more or less stock parts stuck together in unconventional ways. And it was mentioned (IIRC in the Red Hood arc) that Kord Industries had been inventing most of the gadgets Batman used.

In short, most of the feats mentioned (barring the hacking into an alien database - which is impossible) are either close to Batman's core skills or a lot easier than they look if you have the right knowledge. And PhD level isn't actually as useful as many of you seem to think - the study for the PhD is (after the normal degree) largely three years of study on an extremely obscure point on the fringes of knowledge - Batman has the absolute opposite - he knows well-trodden paths and is very good at fitting them together.


The man owns a billion dollar company. He can get a satelite in the air, say it's for one thing but actually have spy tech in it, just like goverment satelites, hell he can say, "Waynetech is looking into the Satelite Television Market". The tech to spy on people already exists, you just got to know who to look at.

[Alan2099]

A few more things on the Reed/Doom/Batman comparison.

Reed is just a scientist. he's not a scientiest, a psychologist, a detective, a martial artist, a racecar driver, Elvis Impersonator, and whatever else Batman decides he's good at this week. Reed is JUST a sceintist, and they frequently point out that he dedicates so much energy into being a scientist that he really doesn't get pretty much anything else. He's horrible with people, he often neglects his own health and family, etc etc. Batman is the best at everything and doesn't really suffer from over exerting himself in any field (the majaority of the time.) Even when they do bring up his poor social skills it's usually shown as being cool. He's a cool dark and gritty loner. Not being good with people is painted as a possitive thing.

As for Doom, Doom is the villian. Villians are supposed to outclass the hero, otherwise the story isn't as intresting. Honestly, I think DC tends to fauil in this regard alot. They tend to overpower all their heroes and let the villians struggle with trying to win. That's just not as intresting seeing the bad guys as always outmatched.

[phantom1592]

I've been complaining about this for a long time. The batman I liked was the one that planned on fighting crime. He studied for years the fields he needed to know. Psychology, Criminology,forensis, etc. He was the greatest Detective. He was also a great fighter.

Batman was the mask, Bruce was the man who went to college to become a cop, before he learned about the Red tape that ties Cops up. Then came the bat in the window.

He was a much better character then. Now he can rebuild androids?!!? He stopped being a detective around the same time that Oracle showed up. Now he just tells her a name or place and she gives him everything he needs to know.

The fact that he learned EVERYTHING, Mastered EVERY martial art, Olympic level gymanast, raised three kids, Fights crime at night, and still maintains the playboy persona..... Now it's just dumb.

Batman is meant to be a detective who can do what the cops can't. And really that's about it.

[algertman]

What's the problem with Batman being so damn good. HE'S THE GOD DAMN BATMAN!

Of course he's best at everything

[Eliseu Gouveia]

What's the problem with Batman being so damn good. HE'S THE GOD DAMN BATMAN!

Of course he's best at everything

Well, he´s also supposed to be human.

And a human normally has to sell his very soul to the devil to be the best a ONE field of expertise.

Batman, on the other hand, is the best at EVERYTHING!

That guy that studied and trained his WHOLE LIFE to be the greatest cybernetic expert int he world?
Batman beat him just by studying 3 minutes in the locker every day between his fencing practice and his forensics exams.

That woman who practice and studied HARD her WHOLE LIFE to be the best chemical engineer in the world?
Batman beat her just by glancing over a couple chemistry books for 2 minutes in his room between his tae-kwon-do lessons and his quantum physics exams.

Human?
Yeah, sure.... and pigs can fly too.....

[Agent0]

Well, he´s also supposed to be human.

And a human normally has to sell his soul to the devil to be the best a ONE field of expertise.

Batman, on the other hand, is the best at EVERYTHING!

I didn't know Batman could build a android robot like Amazo, was a better medical expert then Dr. Midnight, was an engineer like John Henry Irons, or better has magical knowledge like Nabu. That's a surprise to me being the hardcore batfan that I am.

I do know that Batman is an expert in many areas some of which he is better at then others. We know he's the world's best detective for example but I don't recall him EVER being named as the best scientist, doctor, leader, etc...

But if you know something I don't please let me know I'd love to add the feats to my site.

That guys that studied and trained his WHOLE LIFE to be the greatest cybernetic expert int he world?
Batman beat him just by studying 3 minutes in the locker every day between his fencing practice and his forensics exams.

That woman who practice and studied HARD her WHOLE LIFE to be the best chemical engineer in the world?
Batman beat her just by glancing over a couple chemistry books for 2 minutes in his room between his tae-kwon-do lessons and his quantum physics exams.

Human?
Yeah, sure.... and pigs can fly too.....

Batman is considered exceptional because his mind.

Put it this way...

If knowledge is power then Batman is king because he's a jack of all trades. Meaning he's not the best at everything as you claim he is but rather he's well versed in many areas as he's meant to be. Batman's one true super power is his mind take that away from him and he's not Batman anymore.

At a very young age we saw Batman mentally devote himself to knowledge by mastering total recall and speed reading which enabled him to learn things much more faster then others. This shouldn't be a surprise to anyone who actually knows about his training.

Batman is meant to be a detective who can do what the cops can't. And really that's about it.

Having read his background story and training how exactly is this is true? Batman trained himself to be diverse in many areas to prepare himself for many things. Admitedly, he did only expect to battle criminals instead of metas and other threats that we've seen face but as time moved on he realized he had to adapt and prepare himself for many different threats instead of just the average criminals on the street.

[prand_2002]

I cant believe people accept a amazon princess made of clay, a guy who runs at the speed of light, a man with a ring that runs on willpower, a martian and another alien from a planet called krypton, but cant accept a guy who is good at various fields. This comparing comics to reality has to stop.

Batman is the most popular character in DCU. Hence he is written as a better hero than others. This pisses the other fanboys and as a result we get threads like this.

[Francis]

Well, he´s also supposed to be human.

And a human normally has to sell his very soul to the devil to be the best a ONE field of expertise.

Batman, on the other hand, is the best at EVERYTHING!

That guy that studied and trained his WHOLE LIFE to be the greatest cybernetic expert int he world?
Batman beat him just by studying 3 minutes in the locker every day between his fencing practice and his forensics exams.

Could you give me a source on that please? When it comes to computing, Oracle, Lex Luthor, Prometheus, and numerous others are better than Batman. Batman is just pretty good. (Hell, I think Ted Kord was better with most tech than Batman).

That woman who practice and studied HARD her WHOLE LIFE to be the best chemical engineer in the world?
Batman beat her just by glancing over a couple chemistry books for 2 minutes in his room between his tae-kwon-do lessons and his quantum physics exams.

And again, you appear to be talking nonsense. I do not recall Batman being better at biochemistry than e.g. Poison Ivy or Neurochemistry than e.g. Scarecrow. Hell, I think that Lex Luthor is probably better than Batman at both computers and chemistry.

Human?
Yeah, sure.... and pigs can fly too.....

If you think that being in the right situation, with enough knowledge and understanding to be able to produce something useful = being the absolute expert ever, no wonder you have odd views on human.

He was a much better character then.

And completely unsuited for the JLA. He developed and his skills diversified.

Now he can rebuild androids?!!?

With the blueprints and a bit of expertise (not to mention almost unlimited resources), all it takes is time and working out how the parts fit together - i.e. sufficient patience and detective work to do a very complicated 3d jigsaw. Rebuilding != building (it's a lot easier as the really complicated conceptual work has already been done).

He stopped being a detective around the same time that Oracle showed up. Now he just tells her a name or place and she gives him everything he needs to know.

One of the few decisions Dan Dodo has made that I support was to make sure Oracle left Gotham for that reason.

The fact that he learned EVERYTHING, Mastered EVERY martial art, Olympic level gymanast,

Once you've got about half a dozen martial arts, the rest become easy. There are a limited number of ways the body can move and a limited number of ways it can be folded up and a limited number of ways it is vulnerable. Once you've got those down to reflexes, you can see them in different martial arts and they become easy. Then there are only a few oddballs left like Capoeira, Silat, and Drunken Boxing. (It's the same with languages - your first language is very hard, your second is also very hard - but your thirty first is going to be trivial). And to be that good at martial arts, your body needs to be strong, powerful, and conditioned enough that you are probably a national standard gymnast.

And he hasn't mastered every martial arts technique - Shiva (and a few others) still have tricks (such as Cass's resurrection and the ability to read body language like a book) that he lacks. He's an amazing amateur - but lacks the depth of knowledge a professional has.

raised three kids,

One. Dick. Jason wasn't around for that long and Tim was mostly raised by his biological father.

Fights crime at night, and still maintains the playboy persona..... Now it's just dumb.

The only bit I really see as a problem is the playboy persona.

[literally exaggerated]

Batman isn't the best at everything. He's the best detective in the DCU, and one could make the argument that he's the best strategist and the greatest master of psychological warfare in the DCU as well. Thats about it.

Everything else, he's like #2-#5. Brilliant at computers, but narrowly edged by Oracle, the Caculator and a few others. Brilliant scientist/engineer, but rivalled or exceeded in that area by a few guys like Ray Palmer and John Henry Irons. One of the greatest fighters in the world, but supposedly not quite on the level of Cass or Shiva. Fantastic marksman, but narrowly exceeded by Deadshot and maybe a couple of others.

He is, however, the greatest jack-of-alll-trades in the DCU, by far. I mean, #2-#5 is still incredibly impressive. A brilliant genius can spend their entire life studying engineering and be nowhere near the second best engineer in the world. For Batman to have reached that ability level in virtually every human discipline is incredibly impressive, and blatantly impossible by any real world standard.

But I like it that way. What Flash is to speed and Hal is to willpower, Bruce is to intelligence. He's the smartest man in the world, and in comic books that goes a long way towards allowing you to do some crazy stuff.

[jackups]

Yeah and loads od Bat issuies have shown Bruce as Boy dismantling everything he can find to learn how it works!

[phantom1592]

I didn't know Batman could build a android robot like Amazo, was a better medical expert then Dr. Midnight, was an engineer like John Henry Irons, or better has magical knowledge like Nabu. That's a surprise to me being the hardcore batfan that I am.

I do know that Batman is an expert in many areas some of which he is better at then others. We know he's the world's best detective for example but I don't recall him EVER being named as the best scientist, doctor, leader, etc...

But if you know something I don't please let me know I'd love to add the feats to my site.


Well he did just put Tornado back together with no problem. I don't know many GENIUSES that could take the blueprints for an android like that and not have him hitting walls, loss of memory, SOME kind of glitch that would require a ROBOT expert to help out.

It has to be assumed that he built the cave. That's not the kind of thing he could have outsourced, and he's built super armor before, though not sure how often the armor has been IN continuity.






Batman is considered exceptional because his mind.

Put it this way...

If knowledge is power then Batman is king because he's a jack of all trades. Meaning he's not the best at everything as you claim he is but rather he's well versed in many areas as he's meant to be. Batman's one true super power is his mind take that away from him and he's not Batman anymore.

At a very young age we saw Batman mentally devote himself to knowledge by mastering total recall and speed reading which enabled him to learn things much more faster then others. This shouldn't be a surprise to anyone who actually knows about his training. .

When did it say that Bruce had a photo memory? I NEVER heard this. I know BATGIRL has one. That's what the whole Oracle thing is all about. If she's seen it or heard it, she knows it. All the origins I saw with Bruce actually show him Studying while the other boys are out playing.

I have no real problem with him "dabbling" in multiple fields, but the Jack of all trades is by definition a master of NONE. He should be able to recognize the problem and then find the expert he needs. I also don't have a problem with him dealing with the "earthly" sciences. He can create antidotes with Chemistry, and enough Medical to perform autopsies etc. Technology that is alien, or considered "super-science" (robots, Teleporters, Space ships) Those are not the kind of thing he knows about. There was nobody to TEACH him when he was young, and now... Now he's just too busy.


Having read his background story and training how exactly is this is true? Batman trained himself to be diverse in many areas to prepare himself for many things. Admitedly, he did only expect to battle criminals instead of metas and other threats that we've seen face but as time moved on he realized he had to adapt and prepare himself for many different threats instead of just the average criminals on the street.


There is a difference between having a diverse education, and knowing things that can't be learned. They took him TOO far, much like Wolverine. Once your the BEST, then there are no challenges.

[literally exaggerated]

no, there exist massive challenges for Bruce. they just don't come in the form of remotely normal humans. he might be the best human, but he regularly tangles with enemies capable of destroying cities, sometimes worlds, singlehandedly. He's still the biggest underdog in the JLA most of the time.

[literally exaggerated]

As for Doom, Doom is the villian. Villians are supposed to outclass the hero, otherwise the story isn't as intresting. Honestly, I think DC tends to fauil in this regard alot. They tend to overpower all their heroes and let the villians struggle with trying to win. That's just not as intresting seeing the bad guys as always outmatched.

But part of the whole point of batman is that he's like a villain working on the side of good. He's the dark, manipulative rich guy who sets cunning traps and fights dirty as hell. He's like Lex Luthor, only with morals.

[lucifernomi]

Once you've got about half a dozen martial arts, the rest become easy. There are a limited number of ways the body can move and a limited number of ways it can be folded up and a limited number of ways it is vulnerable.

There's some truth in that, but considering that he has it down to a level of expertise that he can specifically identify, and even limit himself to using only the techniques on any one or several obscure styles on a whim, shows a pretty astounding memory feat.

[shaunyc56]

[QUOTE=literally exaggerated]Batman isn't the best at everything. He's the best detective in the DCU, and one could make the argument that he's the best strategist and the greatest master of psychological warfare in the DCU as well. Thats about it.

Everything else, he's like #2-#5. Brilliant at computers, but narrowly edged by Oracle, the Caculator and a few others. Brilliant scientist/engineer, but rivalled or exceeded in that area by a few guys like Ray Palmer and John Henry Irons. One of the greatest fighters in the world, but supposedly not quite on the level of Cass or Shiva. Fantastic marksman, but narrowly exceeded by Deadshot and maybe a couple of others.

This is the best explanation of Batman's skillset I have ever heard. He's not the best at anything except detective work. Everything else, top 5-10. What he does not know he appropriates, or he gets the expert to do for him. You can see this in him using T-Spheres, having Doctor Midnite look at Barbara's legs, going to Jason Blood in matters of magic, etc,...

The reason he has to be so good at everything is simple. He represents the best of humanity. He can't just stand behind Superalien, he has to be equal. You got Aliens going rouge, amazons killing people, and guys in armor suits hallucinating. The Best of humanity has to be there to keep it all in check. Otherwise the humans in the DCU become spectators in their own world.

[shaunyc56]

But part of the whole point of batman is that he's like a villain working on the side of good. He's the dark, manipulative rich guy who sets cunning traps and fights dirty as hell. He's like Lex Luthor, only with morals.


Best example of that, Batman convinces and pays Capt. Cold to use his latest Flash fighting device to the betterment of Gotham citizens, and get this, Flash gets pissed off. Douchebag.

[phantom1592]

Could you give me a source on that please? When it comes to computing, Oracle, Lex Luthor, Prometheus, and numerous others are better than Batman. Batman is just pretty good. (Hell, I think Ted Kord was better with most tech than Batman).

And again, you appear to be talking nonsense. I do not recall Batman being better at biochemistry than e.g. Poison Ivy or Neurochemistry than e.g. Scarecrow. Hell, I think that Lex Luthor is probably better than Batman at both computers and chemistry.

They may create poisons and such buy Batman has no problems canceling them. Again as Chemistry/Drug effects was one of the fields he felt was needed, I have no problem with these.



And completely unsuited for the JLA. He developed and his skills diversified.


Unsuitable for the JLA? Then what the heck is Ted Kord? Why do people want Grayson on the team? I think that a Great fighter and a world class Detective would be quite useful on a team. The JLA isn't that picky. You don't HAVE to be able to take out Darkseid on your own in order to get a chair.



With the blueprints and a bit of expertise (not to mention almost unlimited resources), all it takes is time and working out how the parts fit together - i.e. sufficient patience and detective work to do a very complicated 3d jigsaw. Rebuilding != building (it's a lot easier as the really complicated conceptual work has already been done).


It's the expertise (implying Expert) that I have a problem with. Also he didn't use Time or Resources to do it. It really only took the one fight, MAYBE a day or so tops to put him back together, and he didn't use his money to hire experts to do it. The money was kind of useless here.



One of the few decisions Dan Dodo has made that I support was to make sure Oracle left Gotham for that reason.


Agreed. I really like Babs, but I think she really hurt the Batman Character.


One. Dick. Jason wasn't around for that long and Tim was mostly raised by his biological father.


Jason died pretty quick but he has done a LOT with Tim. In the early days he lived at the manor, and when his dad showed back up, he still spent more time overthere.



The only bit I really see as a problem is the playboy persona.

But its still there. It also is a more realistic part of the character. And it takes time! I guess if he were a character like Reed Richards who spent all day in a lab learning stuff, I wouldn't have a problem. Bruce has too many things that take up his time.

[Francis]

Well he did just put Tornado back together with no problem. I don't know many GENIUSES that could take the blueprints for an android like that and not have him hitting walls, loss of memory, SOME kind of glitch that would require a ROBOT expert to help out.

And I don't know any robots that are actually powered and controlled by elementals. I think that the Tornado's own internal power could overcome most such glitches.

It has to be assumed that he built the cave. That's not the kind of thing he could have outsourced,

There are ways. And I assumed the cave itself was already there before Batman...

and he's built super armor before, though not sure how often the armor has been IN continuity.

Given the amount of super armour floating around the DCU, it can't be that hard to make especially if you can afford to buy the blueprints (if not the makers).

When did it say that Bruce had a photo memory? I NEVER heard this. I know BATGIRL has one. That's what the whole Oracle thing is all about. If she's seen it or heard it, she knows it. All the origins I saw with Bruce actually show him Studying while the other boys are out playing.

AFAIK, Bruce only has a trained memory and a well organised one good at spotting connections. For most of the things he does with it, that's almost certainly stronger than a photographic memory (which need not flag up connections even if the trivia is known).

I have no real problem with him "dabbling" in multiple fields, but the Jack of all trades is by definition a master of NONE.

Other than martial arts and detective work, what is he actually a master of?

He should be able to recognize the problem and then find the expert he needs.

You mean he doesn't regularly go to Jason Blood or Zantana Zatara about mystical issues? You mean he doesn't have his gagets built by Harold, Toymaster 2, or Kord Industries? You mean that he didn't have Oracle do most of the hacking he needed doing? You mean that he did all the medical care on the Batfamily rather than sending it across to Leslie for mid level work or asking Dr. Midnite in real emergencies (such as the recent Birds of Brey Oracle/Braniac mess)? You mean he didn't appropriate Mr. Terrific's T-Spheres when he needed them? You mean that he doesn't tell other members of the JLA the best use of their powers to solve specific problems? You mean he didn't go to Lady Shiva to get his martial arts upgraded after Knightfall? All those are news to me.

I also don't have a problem with him dealing with the "earthly" sciences. He can create antidotes with Chemistry, and enough Medical to perform autopsies etc. Technology that is alien, or considered "super-science" (robots, Teleporters, Space ships) Those are not the kind of thing he knows about. There was nobody to TEACH him when he was young, and now... Now he's just too busy.

I'm pretty sure that Batman only needs five hours sleep a night (some people do) - and that he takes about an hour a day studying (and a further hour training) to keep on top of the game.

There is a difference between having a diverse education, and knowing things that can't be learned. They took him TOO far, much like Wolverine. Once your the BEST, then there are no challenges.

He's pushing the envelope, certainly.

Unsuitable for the JLA? Then what the heck is Ted Kord?

A gadgeteer - and comic relief. Oh, and dead.

Why do people want Grayson on the team?

He's the best leader and field commander anywhere in the DCU. Something the JLA simply doesn't have.

I think that a Great fighter and a world class Detective would be quite useful on a team.

Quite useful, certainly. J'onn is also a great fighter and world class Detective...

Bruce has too many things that take up his time.

That I'm not disagreeing with. Particularly Monitor Duty in the JLA watchtower...

[Agent0]

Well he did just put Tornado back together with no problem. I don't know many GENIUSES that could take the blueprints for an android like that and not have him hitting walls, loss of memory, SOME kind of glitch that would require a ROBOT expert to help out.

It has to be assumed that he built the cave. That's not the kind of thing he could have outsourced, and he's built super armor before, though not sure how often the armor has been IN continuity.

Are your saying that Batman shouldn't be able to put back together an android like Red Tornado because he lacks the intelligence? Cause if thats the case you'd be wrong. The fact of the matter is that Batman is indeed a brilliant scientist and is experienced with studying alien tech having come across it MANY times before also having studied his teammates as shown in Tower of Babel why is it a surprise that he could rebuild Red Tornado?

Just because he's capable of feats like that doesn't mean he's the best in that area. He's acknowledges various people to be better in different areas several times.

When did it say that Bruce had a photo memory? I NEVER heard this. I know BATGIRL has one. That's what the whole Oracle thing is all about. If she's seen it or heard it, she knows it. All the origins I saw with Bruce actually show him Studying while the other boys are out playing.

No offense but I'm not surprised you haven't since you seem like you haven't read everything surrounding Bruce's training to become Batman. To answer your question, this is revealed in Shadow of the Bat #0 which covers some of Batman's training but not all of it. BTW, its just one interpertation of Batman's training compared to other writers but accurate none the less.

I have no real problem with him "dabbling" in multiple fields, but the Jack of all trades is by definition a master of NONE. He should be able to recognize the problem and then find the expert he needs. I also don't have a problem with him dealing with the "earthly" sciences. He can create antidotes with Chemistry, and enough Medical to perform autopsies etc. Technology that is alien, or considered "super-science" (robots, Teleporters, Space ships) Those are not the kind of thing he knows about. There was nobody to TEACH him when he was young, and now... Now he's just too busy.

Again, I'm trying to understand what your point of view here but are you saying he shouldn't be able to do things like this because you don't want him to or are you saying he shouldn't be able to do it because he's never shown he ability to?

It seems like your upset by the fact that Batman is capable of all these amazing things but don't want to accept the fact that he's capable of them because he was so well trained and learns so quickly from studying. That's how well his mind works it always has. With experience, Batman has only gotten much better as time went on.

There is a difference between having a diverse education, and knowing things that can't be learned.

What things that can't be learned? Explain.

According to you Batman should be only a master detective, good strategist, and a great fighter and thats it but what you don't want to accept is real evidence of Batman doing far more impressive things which comes across as unfair bias.

They took him TOO far, much like Wolverine. Once your the BEST, then there are no challenges.

Not true at all. Being the best doesn't mean your unbeatable or aren't challenged it simply means you stand above the rest. That's like someone saying that a world champ doesn't have to fight to defend their title when they fought and trained hard to win it in the first place.

Its not like we haven't seen Batman or Wolverine beaten or on the losing end of a fight before either. But we have seen them make great come backs in fights by using their best weapons. In Batman's case, it would be his wits more often then not as shown in his recent brawl with the Martian Manhunter poser in Superman/Batman #28 which is a great example.

[Alan2099]

I'm pretty sure that Batman only needs five hours sleep a night (some people do) - and that he takes about an hour a day studying (and a further hour training) to keep on top of the game.
They've established that Batman needs one hour of sleep a night due to some weird tibetten mideset or something he's learened.

[phantom1592]

And I don't know any robots that are actually powered and controlled by elementals. I think that the Tornado's own internal power could overcome most such glitches.


I don't know any robots at all :(



There are ways. And I assumed the cave itself was already there before Batman...



Yeah, but they don't show the cave as an oak desk and a laptop ;) It's usually some massive technilogical fortress with Multiple levels. Definetly requried some engineering and design, just to make sure it doesn't collapse


Given the amount of super armour floating around the DCU, it can't be that hard to make especially if you can afford to buy the blueprints (if not the makers).


hmmm... a lot of these answers seem weak to me. "Everyone has them, and the robot fixed itself" I don't know. Maybe it's me.


AFAIK, Bruce only has a trained memory and a well organised one good at spotting connections. For most of the things he does with it, that's almost certainly stronger than a photographic memory (which need not flag up connections even if the trivia is known).


Now that's a decent answer. This I can almost believe. Kind of a Sherlock Holmes memory attic. I don't like him having a Photo memory. That's a little to..... Unusual for an ordinary human to have. I can't remember if it was Marvel or DC, but one of the books had a comment about monitoring Superhumans. They had a list of all the people they were monitoring from the most powerful heroes, to that old lady that one the lotto 7 times. Things like that are DANGEROUSLY close to being considered "meta".

Batman works best as a HUMAN.


Other than martial arts and detective work, what is he actually a master of?


There are certain things that are prerequisets to other skills. For example, In order for me to do really well at... Calculus, I have to be great at early Algebra.

Now what kind of sciences does he have to be great at to even have a minor familiarity with Teleportation devices? Space ships? I'm getting bored with the sentient Robot example ;)



You mean he doesn't regularly go to Jason Blood or Zantana Zatara about mystical issues? You mean he doesn't have his gagets built by Harold, Toymaster 2, or Kord Industries? You mean that he didn't have Oracle do most of the hacking he needed doing? You mean that he did all the medical care on the Batfamily rather than sending it across to Leslie for mid level work or asking Dr. Midnite in real emergencies (such as the recent Birds of Brey Oracle/Braniac mess)? You mean he didn't appropriate Mr. Terrific's T-Spheres when he needed them? You mean that he doesn't tell other members of the JLA the best use of their powers to solve specific problems? You mean he didn't go to Lady Shiva to get his martial arts upgraded after Knightfall? All those are news to me.


C'mon.... Toymaker?!? How long has he been helping out? Harold wasn't around for very long either. All I remember him doing was building the Subway car, but I imagine he did some other stuff too. But he wasn't around for very long. I don't recall him doing much with Kord either, though I do know he stopped in BoP for a while.


He's the best leader and field commander anywhere in the DCU. Something the JLA simply doesn't have.

I like to see him as the leadership of Superman with the skills of Batman. He's ALSO a world class detective.


Quite useful, certainly. J'onn is also a great fighter and world class Detective...


Yeah but he cheats. They always show him as more of a telepath than a detective. If I can read your mind, I don't need to look for evidence.

[Francis]

I don't know any robots at all :(
Yeah, but they don't show the cave as an oak desk and a laptop ;) It's usually some massive technilogical fortress with Multiple levels. Definetly requried some engineering and design, just to make sure it doesn't collapse

Hmm... Offhand, I only recall most incarnations having one floor, flat round the computers (with some multipurpose space that can have things like a hospital bed), an area for physical practice, and an elongated staircase to the manor. But if it's more than that, there are several ways to hire workers without them knowing what they are doing. The most obvious is that you get WayneCorp a few government contracts for secret military installations and then tack the Batcave on as another one. And because it's secret government work, the workers would expect not to know exactly where they've been taken, making the Batcave much more of a possibility.

hmmm... a lot of these answers seem weak to me. "Everyone has them, and the robot fixed itself" I don't know. Maybe it's me.

No. They are "Enough people have them that a Billionaire Industrialist could get his hands on them if he really wanted to and most of the problems are actually easier to solve than they appear."

Now that's a decent answer. This I can almost believe. Kind of a Sherlock Holmes memory attic.

Indeed :) (And I know that they happen in real life - my memory works along those lines).

I don't like him having a Photo memory. That's a little to..... Unusual for an ordinary human to have.

I won't disagree there. Although he has a lot of ... unusual skills.

I can't remember if it was Marvel or DC, but one of the books had a comment about monitoring Superhumans. They had a list of all the people they were monitoring from the most powerful heroes, to that old lady that one the lotto 7 times. Things like that are DANGEROUSLY close to being considered "meta".

But there are also quite a number of things that happen in the real world that come close to being seen as meta. I see Batman as being at least as good at "mental sleight of hand" as Zantanna Zatara is at physical sleight of hand.

Batman works best as a HUMAN.

I won't disagree.

There are certain things that are prerequisets to other skills. For example, In order for me to do really well at... Calculus, I have to be great at early Algebra.

But for most of those prerequisites, the prerequisite is also useful for a lot of other skills.

Now what kind of sciences does he have to be great at to even have a minor familiarity with Teleportation devices? Space ships? I'm getting bored with the sentient Robot example ;)

The ability to plug prefabricated part A into slot B and a reasonable familiarity. And the ability to RTFM (and speed-read it). Plus a good imagination to work out the uses for a teleporter.

C'mon.... Toymaker?!? How long has he been helping out?

Not sure offhand. But I think he still is - so that objection doesn't hold. Especially as if he still is, other than for a brief slot there's been at least someone cannonically certainly since 1993. (And very possibly before that).

Harold wasn't around for very long either. All I remember him doing was building the Subway car, but I imagine he did some other stuff too. But he wasn't around for very long.

About ten years - 1993 - 2002/3. He let people into the Batcave when Azrael was pretending to be Batman, helped with Batman's computers, and built Batmobiles for certain.

I don't recall him doing much with Kord either, though I do know he stopped in BoP for a while.

Kord Industries, not Ted Kord himself. At some point in the Jason Todd return arc, it was revealed that Kord Industries was a subsidiary of Wayne Enterprises which had been doing R&D - and in particular R&D into the personal gadgets Batman uses. However, it was snaffled by someo