When did Batman become expert at everything? (minor spoiler)

[Jolly Mon]

I can recall a time when Batman was the world's greatest detective and one of the top hand-to-hand combatants in the world. And that was it. He kept a guy around (I think his name was Harold) to build Batmobiles, Whirly-Bats, etc, for him because he couldn't. Now he designs super secret spy satelite systems (how he got them launched I have no idea) which are so advanced that he can't even shut them down (!?) and single handedly reassembles the Red Tornado in a recent issue of JLA. The android was literally smashed, but when Batman is done, there aren't even any cracks (did he use Bondo?). Just wondering if there is anything he can't do (except maintain human relationships :( )?

[Eliseu Gouveia]

There are people who cried blood to get a PhD.
Gifted geniuses have quit at M.I.T.

And yet here is a guy who has the equivalent to a degree at every field known to man, from chemistry to electronic.

Words escape me....

[Bored at 3:00AM]

Batman has always been the smartest superhero in the DCU as long as I can remember...and I can remember pretty far back.

He's not necessarially a genius in every single field, but he's pretty darn proficient in pretty much everything. And has presumably gotten more and more techno-savy thanks to his years within the JLA. I mean, how difficult can making a sentient computer and rebuilding an android be when you've had access to Mother Box on numerous occassions?

[MacQuarrie]

Doesn't that rather dilute the secondary heroes? I mean, if Mister Terrific's whole thing is that he's supposed to be a technological genius and good at everything, and he's still a poor second to Batman in every field, why bother? Why wasn't Batman in the operating room with Dr. Midnight working on Barbara Gordon? Surely his technlogical prowess would have helped in disabling the Brainiac Virus, wouldn't it?

I think Batman should be the best at what he does, which is being the world's greatest detective and a top martial artist/commando/vigilante. Any skill that does not directly apply to stopping crime (such as robotics, artifical intelligence, satellite construction....) should be a skill that Batman does not posess any great proficiency in. He should be a talented layman in such fields, not a world-class expert.

But that's just me.

[phicks]

Burt Ward: "Gosh Batman, is there anything you don't know?"

Adam West: "Oh, of course there is Robin. Several things actually."

[Eliseu Gouveia]

I´d like to know the academic qualification of the writers who had the idea of making him expert on every field known to man.

If they had any idea of the effort and dedication required to get ONE PhD, they´d probably tone it down a notch instead of going "Oh, he´s the 2nd best on every field known to man".

Gifted geniuses work their butts off solely trying to sxcel in their area and never manage to graduate into the top 1o best doctors/chemical engineeers/botanics.

And here comes a guy who´s the second best at everything because he read a couple books while climbing the Hymalaias to go learn some katas with budhist monks.

[Chad G.]

I mean, if Mister Terrific's whole thing is that he's supposed to be a technological genius and good at everything, and he's still a poor second to Batman in every field, why bother?



I don't toatally disagree with your point. But if you rememeber, Bats had actually copied some of Terrifics work before. Remember in the Obsidian Age mess when Tempest is shooting them back in time, and Batman activates some "emergency" JLA code. Terrific actually makes a point of being pleased that Batman had copied his work(the little balls that went around "summoning" people). Not all of Batmans work is original. He has no problem with copying someones elses.

And I always thought that it was AWESOME that he sent one to Slade. Deathstroke in the JLA.

Could it get any better?

[Jolly Mon]

Batman has always been the smartest superhero in the DCU as long as I can remember...and I can remember pretty far back.

He's not necessarially a genius in every single field, but he's pretty darn proficient in pretty much everything. And has presumably gotten more and more techno-savy thanks to his years within the JLA.
I can remember pretty far back too. I remember that the satelite they used to hang out in was built from Kryptonian & Thanagarian technology. Batman didn't build it.

I remember the Batmobile had some pretty cool stuff in it. Thanks to Harold. Batman didn't build it.

Making Batarangs, Bat-lasers, Bat breathing devices, and whatever else he shoves in his utility belt, fine. But there should be some limits on what he can do, otherwise everyone else is not needed.
I mean, how difficult can making a sentient computer and rebuilding an android be when you've had access to Mother Box on numerous occassions?

Granted, these are funnybooks, but think about what you just said. Building a sentient computer or rebuilding an android should be something that only one or two people in the world can do. So why is one of them always got to be Batman?

[Chad G.]

Eliseu Gouveia

Gifted geniuses work their butts off solely trying to sxcel in their area and never manage to graduate into the top 1o best doctors/chemical engineeers/botanics.



I think it's very important we remember that we are talking about a "fictional" character here. This isn't real life. If it were, of course Batman couldn't accomplish 1/1,000 of what he does in the DCU.

Of course, we also wouldn't have Martians walking the earth and grown men that can move at light speed either. Just try and take it with a grain of salt.

[Tadhg]

Okay, I'm not currently reading any of the DCU(Not my thing), but when I heard about the Satellite that Batman built, I assumed people meant he used WayneTech to build it. You're telling me that Bruce himself built it all?

That's it, he's a superhuman.

[Jolly Mon]

I think it's very important we remember that we are talking about a "fictional" character here. This isn't real life. If it were, of course Batman couldn't accomplish 1/1,000 of what he does in the DCU.

Of course, we also wouldn't have Martians walking the earth and grown men that can move at light speed either. Just try and take it with a grain of salt.

Obviously no one is confusing fiction with reality. It gets a little annoying when a point is made about how something could be written better, and someone always has to say that it's "fictional". Saying this equates to "shut up and put up with it". Everyone knows it's fiction, but we also know that a character without any limits gets real boring. Much like Superman when he was throwing planets around.

[Chad G.]

Obviously no one is confusing fiction with reality. It gets a little annoying when a point is made about how something could be written better, and someone always has to say that it's "fictional". Saying this equates to "shut up and put up with it". Everyone knows it's fiction, but we also know that a character without any limits gets real boring. Much like Superman when he was throwing planets around.

Gosh, don't I hate to be annoying. Maybe I was a bit too intense with that. Comic books are a representation an "unreal"(didn't use fictional) reality that we enjoy because it allows us to escape our own dreary 9-5 lives. If everyone had limits, we would know what to expect at the turn of every page. But since it "fictional"(did I use it again?), we can enjoy things that cannot be real. It doesn't mean "shut up". It means try and rationalize a bit more.

[Chad G.]

Okay, I'm not currently reading any of the DCU(Not my thing), but when I heard about the Satellite that Batman built, I assumed people meant he used WayneTech to build it. You're telling me that Bruce himself built it all?

That's it, he's a superhuman.

LOL. Shhhhhhhh. He trys to keep that a secret.

[Alan2099]

The problem is, when people suddenly show abilites that are completley unrealistic or not within their normal limts, it jolts the reader out of his suspension of disbelif and actibvely reminds them that it's just a story.

Now unpredictablity is good, but consistancy needs to go along with it.

If Batman has trouble building a car, he's not going to design a multibillion dollar spy satelite. If Superman can lift a mountain, he's not going to have to strain to lift a bus.

When a character blatantly disregards their limits, that's when the reader looses intrest in the character.

[Agent0]

I can remember pretty far back too. I remember that the satelite they used to hang out in was built from Kryptonian & Thanagarian technology. Batman didn't build it.

True but he did design the security.

I remember the Batmobile had some pretty cool stuff in it. Thanks to Harold. Batman didn't build it.

Actually, Batman did build the very first batmobile. He employed Harold and later on Toyman II because it made things easier for him.

Making Batarangs, Bat-lasers, Bat breathing devices, and whatever else he shoves in his utility belt, fine. But there should be some limits on what he can do, otherwise everyone else is not needed.

Not true.

Between, fighting crime on a nightly basis, being a JLA member, and having a life as Bruce Wayne its very hard for him to build all of his own equipment/gadgets. Anyway, Batman has admitted he's not as smart as the Atom when it comes to science and isn't quite the engineer Steel is. Batman's not the best at everything and has gone to other experts in different areas for help or advice when he needed it.

Granted, these are funnybooks, but think about what you just said. Building a sentient computer or rebuilding an android should be something that only one or two people in the world can do. So why is one of them always got to be Batman?

I'm guessing because his mind is his greatest weapon and for all we know he could've studied Red Tornado a great deal beforehand having come up with protocols for the league and all.

[Forsaken_One]

I think Batman became good at everything about the same time the second Mr. Terrific managed to get like five PhDs and a few extra specialties and Oracle managed to not only kick ass but also become the best hacker EVAR only after she lost the use of her legs.

DC has a long history of making human heros more than human.

[Jolly Mon]

[QUOTE=Agent0]True but he did design the security.
[QUOTE]

Don't recall that. Do you have a source?

[darkkeeperjr]

I remember once that batman had goten a "mentel bullet" from manhunter to IIRC fly a plane or fix something. I like to think john gave him the basic plus what ever level he knows about the subjects.

[Jolly Mon]

I remember once that batman had goten a "mentel bullet" from manhunter to IIRC fly a plane or fix something. I like to think john gave him the basic plus what ever level he knows about the subjects.

Why just Batman then? Why not Flash, he could do everything faster. Why not everyone in the JLA? Was anything like this even hinted at in comics?

[darkkeeperjr]

Ummmm.... cause he's Batman?

[Chad G.]

True but he did design the security.



Actually, Batman did build the very first batmobile. He employed Harold and later on Toyman II because it made things easier for him.



Not true.

Between, fighting crime on a nightly basis, being a JLA member, and having a life as Bruce Wayne its very hard for him to build all of his own equipment/gadgets. Anyway, Batman has admitted he's not as smart as the Atom when it comes to science and isn't quite the engineer Steel is. Batman's not the best at everything and has gone to other experts in different areas for help or advice when he needed it.



I'm guessing because his mind is his greatest weapon and for all we know he could've studied Red Tornado a great deal beforehand having come up with protocols for the league and all.

Well said on all points.

[Chad G.]

Why just Batman then? Why not Flash, he could do everything faster. Why not everyone in the JLA? Was anything like this even hinted at in comics?

It was more than hinted at. J'onn mentally downloaded the ability to fly a 16 mile wide Martain supercarrier into Batmans head during the whole Mageddon mess when Aztek died. Makes a great example about what else he might have given him.

[Chad G.]

DC has a long history of making human heros more than human.

Be careful. Some on this board might have a nasty habit of calling Batman a "metahuman", which is the best joke I've heard it a while ;) . Good point though.

[Jolly Mon]

Ummmm.... cause he's Batman?

BWA-HA-HA!

[Jolly Mon]

I guess what it comes down to, for me, is I liked Batman when he was the best there was at what he did. Not the best at everything. Look back to the O'Neil Batman when he first got back to the "creature of the night". He was the greatest detective, the best non-super fighter, and the smartest guy in the satelite. But that didn't mean he could do everything, he left some things for other people.

Even the apparent supporters of "Batman can do anything, even though he's never shown any previous abilities to invent sentient computers and rebuild androids" are coming up with some real reaching explanations of how he now can. J'onn downloaded how to fly a Martian spaceship into Batman's head. Ok, does it ever say that he did the same with all known sciences? And again, if he could do that, why not make all the other JLA'ers instant experts on everything? In my opinion, it's just not good writing.

Uber-Bat supporters, please feel free to bash. I'm done.

[Chad G.]

I guess what it comes down to, for me, is I liked Batman when he was the best there was at what he did. Not the best at everything. Look back to the O'Neil Batman when he first got back to the "creature of the night". He was the greatest detective, the best non-super fighter, and the smartest guy in the satelite. But that didn't mean he could do everything, he left some things for other people.

I'm not here to bash friend, and I am not totally disagreeing with your point. Quite a few people, even us "uber" Bat fans agree with you. I personally don't.

Even the apparent supporters of "Batman can do anything, even though he's never shown any previous abilities to invent sentient computers and rebuild androids" are coming up with some real reaching explanations of how he now can. J'onn downloaded how to fly a Martian spaceship into Batman's head. Ok, does it ever say that he did the same with all known sciences? And again, if he could do that, why not make all the other JLA'ers instant experts on everything? In my opinion, it's just not good writing.

Uber-Bat supporters, please feel free to bash. I'm done.

Now on this one, you had asked if this had been "hinted" at, and I gave you a specific reference. My point is this: Batman is on the Watchtower with some of the most brilliant minds on Earth, like Ray and John, and some not from this Earth, like J'onn. He has already demonstrated an inate ability to learn at a marvelous pace. So can we assume that he sucks up knowledge all around him like a sponge. With the way he's written today, I don' know what he's capable of. But all I know is right now, current writers make him out as "all-knowing" for lack of a better term. And that doesn't necessarily bother me.

[IamtheRock3]

I guess what it comes down to, for me, is I liked Batman when he was the best there was at what he did. Not the best at everything. Look back to the O'Neil Batman when he first got back to the "creature of the night". He was the greatest detective, the best non-super fighter, and the smartest guy in the satelite. But that didn't mean he could do everything, he left some things for other people.

Even the apparent supporters of "Batman can do anything, even though he's never shown any previous abilities to invent sentient computers and rebuild androids" are coming up with some real reaching explanations of how he now can. J'onn downloaded how to fly a Martian spaceship into Batman's head. Ok, does it ever say that he did the same with all known sciences? And again, if he could do that, why not make all the other JLA'ers instant experts on everything? In my opinion, it's just not good writing.

Uber-Bat supporters, please feel free to bash. I'm done.

Well the thing is ounce he was in the JLA they started writing him on a differnt level sense DC wanted him on the front lines because it sold comics

so you know..he wont die in one Panel


The being able to beats Gods but having trouble with the riddler been kind of a constant for a couple of years.

[IamtheRock3]

and note there was a time in JLA..that almsot EVERY heroes has Expert Science skills and was a Genius of high level.

[Chad G.]

Well the thing is ounce he was in the JLA they started writing him on a differnt level sense DC wanted him on the front lines because it sold comics



BINGO. That hits the nail on the head. Batman is the DC Wolverine. He moves comics off the shelves, which at the final gun, is ALL that matters.

[Agent0]

Don't recall that. Do you have a source?

Batman and the Outsiders #22.

Here's the scanned pic for you to see:
http://img17.imagevenue.com/loc178/th_38b_batsystem.jpg (http://img17.imagevenue.com/img.php?loc=loc178&image=38b_batsystem.jpg)

[IamtheRock3]

batman needs to be with the outsiders again.

[Chad G.]

batman needs to be with the outsiders again.

But wouldn't you miss the wild card dynamic that he brings to the JLA.

[Chris Thomas]

I certainly don't think it dilutes second tier characters. I mean--there are alot of heros that make their living out of being fast OR invulnerable OR strong.. superman can whip most/all of them at any of the three. that's what being one of the big dudes means.

[literally exaggerated]

I certainly don't think it dilutes second tier characters. I mean--there are alot of heros that make their living out of being fast OR invulnerable OR strong.. superman can whip most/all of them at any of the three. that's what being one of the big dudes means.

I agree. Is Atom Smasher somehow lessened because Supes could embarass him in arm wrestling without trying? No. Because he fills one position in the DCU, and Supes fills an entirely different one, even if there powers overlap.

Batman's the same, only instead of speed, strength and durability, he has brains.

[Eliseu Gouveia]

I certainly don't think it dilutes second tier characters. I mean--there are alot of heros that make their living out of being fast OR invulnerable OR strong.. superman can whip most/all of them at any of the three. that's what being one of the big dudes means.

So, to upgrade him so he´s worthy of hanging in the Big Seven they boost him into superhuman levels (because if there´s one thing that brain isn´t is human) even though his main selling card is the fact that he´s "one of us"?

Look at his core fans:
"- I prefer Batman because, unlike Superman, he´s a normal human I can empathise with."

I don´t know any "normal human" who has the equivalent to fifty PhD´s, can deliver olympic athletic performances on every sport on top of being one of the top 5 best martial artists in the world..... all this acchieved in his spare time, when he´s not maintaining a playboy facade that no paparazi (THE most nosy creatures under the sky) in the world could ever crack.

Suspension of disbelief?
What suspension of disbelief?

[titanfan]

racle managed to not only kick ass but also become the best hacker EVAR only after she lost the use of her legs.

Well Oracle is the only one who is semi-believable. It was established when she was Batgirl that she had a photgraphic memory. I believe she could learn things really really quickly.

It's not just Batman in the DCU though. I've read stories where Dr. Light (Kimiyo) seems to have a medical degree in addition to being a scientist. Atom is another hero who seems to have a greater area of knowledge than he should.
It's like this everywhere. People's skills get generalized. In comics or on TV, if someone is a "Doctor", that Doctor can perform multiple surgeries, deliver a baby, diagnose a rare illness, etc. If someone is a computer guru, then can program, build machines, are master hackers, etc. It's unrealistic to expect anyone to have too specified knowledge in the DCU, they have to know enough to move the plot along.

[Bored at 3:00AM]

Granted, these are funnybooks, but think about what you just said. Building a sentient computer or rebuilding an android should be something that only one or two people in the world can do. So why is one of them always got to be Batman?

Exactly, these are funnybooks, I think there should be hundreds of guys out there coming up with sentient computers, androids, death rays, giant robots, mutant sharks and every other kind of insane crap every single day in the DCU. That's what makes this stuff so fun to read. These are superhero comic books. I want Batman to be able to do crap that cool all the time. And plenty of other characters too.

Its not always Batman and Batman isn't the best at everything, he's just very good at a lot of things. I'd say Mister Terrific is certainly smarter than him in a most areas, particularly anything to do with technology. Same with Steel. And while I'm sure Batman is also insanely smart when it comes to science, I'd still say The Atom is the better overall scientist.

Again, the way I look at Batman is this. Batman is the World's Greatest Detective but he's also very, very clever in other areas. So thinking up a sentient supercomputer and rebuilding an android doesn't really seem like something a guy as smart and experienced as Batman shouldn't be able to do.

But, that's just the way I like Batman. There's plenty of other versions of Batman out there for people to enjoy and there's no reason they all have to be consistent with each other...unless continuity is more important to you than enjoying the comics you read, of course.

[Agent0]

So, to upgrade him so he´s worthy of hanging in the Big Seven they boost him into superhuman levels (because if there´s one thing that brain isn´t is human) even though his main selling card is the fact that he´s "one of us"?

You do know, pre-uber JLA Batman that he:
- Hacked into an alien data base
- Came up with a protocol/tech to stop Superman without kryptonite including being able to sneak up on getting passed his senses
- Shown designing league security as shown in the pic I posted
- Built armor to take on Bizarro and was able to expose his weakness eariler on
- Displayed scientific intelligence on par with the Atom when they first met in the league
- Created anti-toxins and such being an expert chemist

Batman has always been this smart its just that writers like Morrison and Waid took it to another level for the sole reason that he faces global and universal threats on a regular basis in JLA. As oppossed to dealing with unpredictable pyschos like Joker or a brilliant mastermind like Ra's Al Ghul. Even in his own titles now they show him pulling off uber feats from time to time.

Look at his core fans:
"- I prefer Batman because, unlike Superman, he´s a normal human I can empathise with."

Batman normal? Since when? Their's nothing normal about Batman even during Year One you could see Batman was very well above normal. Anyone who says Batman is normal doesn't read Batman comics regularly.

I don´t know any "normal human" who has the equivalent to fifty PhD´s, can deliver I olympic athletic performances on every sport on top of being one of the top 5 best martial artists in the world..... all this acchieved in his spare time, when he´s not maintaining a playboy facade that no paparazi (THE most nosy creatures under the sky) in the world could ever crack.

Batman began his mental training shortly after his parents died developing a speeding read ability and photographic memory enabling him to learn things much quicker and easier then the average human. He later disappeared travelling the world in search of the people who would teach him the skills nessecary to become Batman up until the age of 25. Training basically was Bruce's life he didn't live a double life as the playboy Bruce Wayne at the time. You could say he was the most determined human being on earth.

[mwm1331]

Yet no one seems to complain when reed richards over in Marvel is shown to be the smartest in Chemistry, particle physics, geneitcs, electronics, and robotics. No one seems to complain that Peter Parker at age 16 created artifical spider silk (chemistry) and spider tracers (electronics) No one seems to complain that oracle can hack into any and all databases in the world at will.
Batman isn't the best in the DCU at electronics, or physics, or chemistry, or science, hes in the top ten but not number one.
Second most of you are forgetting he has the various wayne companies, a multi billion dollar corporation whose design and manufacturing he uses.
DId batman build brother eye with his bare hands? I don't know but there is nothing in the comics to support that. I always assumed that several of the wayne subsidiaries built some pieces, manufactured others, and put it all together.
No one complains that superman somehow understands all kryptonain technology ( I mean really, could anyone understand even all human tech?)
Batman is good at most scientific disciplines, but not the best.
The difference is he has a muti-billion dollar technology company backing him up.
As to the red tornado, wasn't he built by a guy who managed to not only build a TV that sees into the future (quatum or temporal physics) but a robot as well? (artificial intelligence, robotics, computer programming etc.)
I mean Mr terrific built his T-spheres, which incorporates electronics, some form of propulsion system, computer interfaces, etc, etc, etc.
So What?
And as for "reading a few books on the way up the himalayas to learn katas", didn't bruce go to university and get a degree?
My point is there are characters in the DCU whose intelligence and knowlkedge is just as unrealistic if not more so than Batmans.
Hell look at sivana.

Bottom line the rules of reality in the DCU are a hell of a lot looser than ours, otherwise superman couldn't exist, nor the green lantern nor the flash, batman and other human vigilantes would have died in thier first week, the super genuises like sivana and luthor would never have bothered with crime as they could make so much more as businessmen, and any aliens who landed on earth would die within days due to a lack of immunity to earth diseases.

[mwm1331]

Seriously if you want to talk about unrealistic, the fact that lady shiva is the top martial artist in the DCU is unrealistic. She weighs in at what 110 120 at most?
Yes shes skilled but unless her skill is litterally 3 times that of everyman she would get her ass kicked regularly if only becuase she doesn't have the weight, power, or reach of an average size man.
I mean think about, would you expect a boxing light weight even if he were the most skilled to be able to take out a heavy weight like hollyfield or tyson?
Why doesn't anyone complain that dinah lance, can take out savant in a straight up fight?
Thier skills are on par yet he outweighs, out reaches, and out powers her by two to one.
So to say that batman being really smart is too unrealistic is pure D Bullsh*t.

[Jolly Mon]

Batman and the Outsiders #22.

Here's the scanned pic for you to see:
http://img17.imagevenue.com/loc178/th_38b_batsystem.jpg (http://img17.imagevenue.com/img.php?loc=loc178&image=38b_batsystem.jpg)

Cool, I forgot about that. Thanks for the pic.

[Alan2099]

Seriously if you want to talk about unrealistic, the fact that lady shiva is the top martial artist in the DCU is unrealistic. She weighs in at what 110 120 at most?
Yes shes skilled but unless her skill is litterally 3 times that of everyman she would get her ass kicked regularly if only becuase she doesn't have the weight, power, or reach of an average size man.
I mean think about, would you expect a boxing light weight even if he were the most skilled to be able to take out a heavy weight like hollyfield or tyson?
Why doesn't anyone complain that dinah lance, can take out savant in a straight up fight?
Thier skills are on par yet he outweighs, out reaches, and out powers her by two to one.
So to say that batman being really smart is too unrealistic is pure D Bullsh*t.
One skill. Yopu're describing characters that have one skill. They fight. Batman has how many skills?

Every character has a gimic. It's what they do. A gimic. Somewhere along the lines batman's gimic became, "having just about all the gimics."

I have no problem with a smart Batman. However a Batman that works with new Gods technology, can fight with the greatest martial arts masters in the world, have huge amounts of political pull, can figure out how to beat cosmic powered beings by watching them for a few seconds, keeps plot devices handy for every thing that can possibly happen, doesn't sleep, and all that other stuff he does is a bit too much.

What's wrong with Batman actually being street level?

[Chad G.]

Seriously if you want to talk about unrealistic, the fact that lady shiva is the top martial artist in the DCU is unrealistic. She weighs in at what 110 120 at most?
Yes shes skilled but unless her skill is litterally 3 times that of everyman she would get her ass kicked regularly if only becuase she doesn't have the weight, power, or reach of an average size man.
I mean think about, would you expect a boxing light weight even if he were the most skilled to be able to take out a heavy weight like hollyfield or tyson?
Why doesn't anyone complain that dinah lance, can take out savant in a straight up fight?
Thier skills are on par yet he outweighs, out reaches, and out powers her by two to one.
So to say that batman being really smart is too unrealistic is pure D Bullsh*t.

No my friend. I'm afraid not. Size doesn't matter in martial arts. I'm sorry, but it doesn't. Its speed and placement. Boxing isn;t a good example here. You can only use your hands, and there are only 2 paces to hit. The mid-section and the head. Whereas in martial arts, placement is key. You're out to disable your opponent. At 225, I normally have 45-50 pounds on some of the other students in my class. But I have gotten leveled by a more skilled female combatant before who was a more advanced martial artist than I was, and I've trained in various contact sports for years. And I'm not too proud to admit that. You can be as big and bad as you want, but you have to connect to make it count. On impact, sure, a larger opponent lands a more powerful blow, but only if that blow ever lands on your smaller opponent. To say that just because someone is a female they can't get the job done strikes me as rather sexist.

[Chad G.]

.

What's wrong with Batman actually being street level?

That is going to take some real work. Street level Batman has been long gone for quite sometime. How are the writers going to "de-power"(god, that sounds pathetic to say) him now?

[Alan2099]

Easy. Start writting him differently.

[prand_2002]

Funny thing is even with Batman being an expert at everything he is getting his ass handed to him by almost everyone. Lets see Hush, Black Mask,Superman,Jason Todd,OMACs.....it goes on.

[Simon Garth]

DC has a long history of making human heros more than human.

The single biggest problem I have with DC, is that they cannot resist continually making their heroes ever more powerful / intelligent etc.

the original poster was right - Batman should be a martial artist / detective / nutcase who thinks dressing like a bat is a good idea. He should have a good tinkerers ability in many fields but shouldn't be expert in all of them (or even any of them). Maybe if Bats needed help from other experts occasionally, then (a) maybe that would make some good story hooks, and (b) maybe he wouldn't be a sociopathic asshole.

Similarly, a post-crisis Wally Flash could run at the speed of sound, which is a useful power and believable in a comic book contest. He shouldn't be able to run at the speed of light, which is just stupid.

[PeteGunn]

Is Bats as good of a police scientist as Barry Allen was?

[davros42]

Is Bats as good of a police scientist as Barry Allen was?

Batman is better than everybody at everything. :p

[trickster]

Okay, I'm not currently reading any of the DCU(Not my thing), but when I heard about the Satellite that Batman built, I assumed people meant he used WayneTech to build it. You're telling me that Bruce himself built it all?

That's it, he's a superhuman.



Everyone knows it's fiction, but we also know that a character without any limits gets real boring. Much like Superman when he was throwing planets around.


You mean Superman stopped being boring? How long was I asleep?

Any way, mwm1331 hit the nail on the head. There are plenty of other characters who aren't even geniuses like Batman as stated in Countdown (Superman is far from a genius) and even if they were, they wouldn't be able to do all the things they do. And some of their feats are even more outrageous then Batman's, because they don't have a fortune bigger than Luthor's to back them up. At least for Batman we know that Waynetech has contracts with the military, but Spiderman for instance? How can he even afford all that stuff? Batman can setup a dummy corporation and order a Batmobile or a satellite built through it.
Let's ge this straight. Batman is sort of DCU's Iron Man. He has money and he knows what he needs so he can order it built. You don't have to be an engineer to order cement and bricks when you're building a house. Batman doesn't have to be a researcher to know what he needs.
Like he did in the movie. He knew he needed protection for his skull. What did he do? Order reinforced hoods from China. Etc.


deliver a baby

So what, those women in the middle ages were geniuses for helping deliver a baby? Are you serious?

[Bob Violence]

That is going to take some real work. Street level Batman has been long gone for quite sometime. How are the writers going to "de-power"(god, that sounds pathetic to say) him now?
They could start by getting rid of the Batplane. Everytime I see it, "Jet Pilot Batman" makes "Crime Fighting Batman" seem like a long forgotten cousin. Plus the concept is just plain absurd, fighter jets require serious maintenance, lots of fuel and constant training and I think some people in Gotham might notice one taking off on their street.

[Chad G.]

Easy. Start writting him differently.


No, no. You miss my point. How will the writers justify him just "forgetting" how to do so much that he knows???

[Matt Algren]

No, no. You miss my point. How will the writers justify him just "forgetting" how to do so much that he knows???
Easy. Start writing him differently.

If you must have an explanation, off the top of my head...

-Batman admits that he really didn't do any of that stuff, he had a network of industry and medical experts working for Waynetech, and he had them do it all.

-Batman gets hit with an extra-big hit of forgetful gas from, I don't know, Two Face. Or Joker. Or that alligator guy.

-Those books all took place on Earth-3495723021, where Batman can do everything. He accidentally destroyed the planet with a poory-placed "Hn.", so we won't be seeing that Batman anymore.

-That wacky fat Alfred did it.

Anyone else want to add some?

[Forsaken_One]

Yellow fear monster.

[Alan2099]

Massive head trauma. He ends up forgetting lots of things.

Killed and replaced by the Batman of Earth-Pretty-much-the-same-as-this-one-except-Batman's-not-as-smart.

Realizes that he totally and completley screwed up with the Brother Eye stuff. Actually asks from some of his knowledge to be mind wiped.

It's revealed that Batman was captured eyars ago and replaced by a skru... er... I mean White martian.

Total Mental Breakdown.

Somebody re-writes reality AGAIN.

bat-mite was secretly making him smarter. Now he stops.

[Bored at 3:00AM]

What's wrong with Batman actually being street level?

Nothing wrong with that idea at all. And there's plenty of really good Batman stories where he is definitely in his vaguely "realistic" street level hero incarnation. However, the Batman who's a member of the Justice League is not a street level hero, he's one of the World's Greatest Heroes, operating at a whole other level than the street level incarnation.

Again, there's no reason different takes on the same character can't co-exist, the only thing stopping this would be blind obedience to continuity.

[IamtheRock3]

Batman thing is being the TOP of what human can achive

He a human working with GODS!!!!


writer like to show what a plucky human can do..and disastarate

And really nearly all the JLA charcter seem to be UBER geniuses. Most heroes seem to be scientificy genius

Heck a high school drop out like spidey learn quatum Phyis while he was a teen and built stuff for his spidey suit

In fact MOST of your A list comic heroes would make STEPHEN HAWKINS sound like the guy from "I am Sam"

so bats aint unique in that regard
least he explain how he knows his stuff

[Chad G.]

high school drop out like spidey

Oh lord, don't get me started on what a pud Parker is. ;)

[handOFfate]

I would say that it's been fairly well established that Mr.Terrific is the smartest overall superhero in DC. He approaches Reed Richards-like intelligence.
But it's not a stretch to say Batman is a close number two. he's been portrayed as a supergenius pretty much since the beginning, so I've got no problem with him doing unbelievable projects like rebuilding Red Tornado.

[Gentlegamer]

I guess what it comes down to, for me, is I liked Batman when he was the best there was at what he did. Batman = Wolverine? :eek:

[mwm1331]

No my friend. I'm afraid not. Size doesn't matter in martial arts. I'm sorry, but it doesn't. Its speed and placement. Boxing isn;t a good example here. You can only use your hands, and there are only 2 paces to hit. The mid-section and the head. Whereas in martial arts, placement is key. You're out to disable your opponent. At 225, I normally have 45-50 pounds on some of the other students in my class. But I have gotten leveled by a more skilled female combatant before who was a more advanced martial artist than I was, and I've trained in various contact sports for years. And I'm not too proud to admit that. You can be as big and bad as you want, but you have to connect to make it count. On impact, sure, a larger opponent lands a more powerful blow, but only if that blow ever lands on your smaller opponent. To say that just because someone is a female they can't get the job done strikes me as rather sexist.

More skilled is the key concept.
When skill is equal size does matter. Thats why every contact sport in the world incluing kickboxing, UFC, etc. all have weight classes. The simple fact is a good big guy will beat a good little guy.
When skill is unequeal then yes the more skilled can win, however skill is not the be all end all. Unless you feel that lady shiva is twice as good as every other human in the DCU then no it doesn't make sense.

[Bob Violence]

I would say that it's been fairly well established that Mr.Terrific is the smartest overall superhero in DC. He approaches Reed Richards-like intelligence.
But it's not a stretch to say Batman is a close number two. he's been portrayed as a supergenius pretty much since the beginning, so I've got no problem with him doing unbelievable projects like rebuilding Red Tornado.
It's stuff like that that bugs me. Batman should farm stuff like that out to specialists. I've always seen Batman as the kind of guy who doesn't sit around the lab unless it's a life or death kind of thing. I don't think he's such a hands-on guy he has to be an expert on everything. Why can't Mr T work on Red Tornado? It's closer to his specialty.

[Alan2099]

I'd pay to see Mr. T work on Red Tornado. Especially if the rest of the A-Team got a cameo.

[gorosaurus]

I can recall a time when Batman was the world's greatest detective and one of the top hand-to-hand combatants in the world. And that was it. He kept a guy around (I think his name was Harold) to build Batmobiles, Whirly-Bats, etc, for him because he couldn't. Now he designs super secret spy satelite systems (how he got them launched I have no idea) which are so advanced that he can't even shut them down (!?) and single handedly reassembles the Red Tornado in a recent issue of JLA. The android was literally smashed, but when Batman is done, there aren't even any cracks (did he use Bondo?). Just wondering if there is anything he can't do (except maintain human relationships :( )?

I'm still wondering what happend to the Elemental that resides (resided?) in Red Tornado. It didn't appear when RT's shell got cracked. As for Batman reassembling him, he's probably got the blueprints; especially since Red Tordado had gotten demolished a few times before. Red Tornado probably has a "med ID bracelet" that says "in case of malfunction or destruction, please download T.O. Morrow's notes from JLA Watchtower."

[Chad G.]

Red Tornado probably has a "med ID bracelet" that says "in case of malfunction or destruction, please download T.O. Morrow's notes from JLA Watchtower."

LMAO

:D

[Jolly Mon]

Batman thing is being the TOP of what human can achive

He a human working with GODS!!!!


writer like to show what a plucky human can do..and disastarate

And really nearly all the JLA charcter seem to be UBER geniuses. Most heroes seem to be scientificy genius

Heck a high school drop out like spidey learn quatum Phyis while he was a teen and built stuff for his spidey suit

In fact MOST of your A list comic heroes would make STEPHEN HAWKINS sound like the guy from "I am Sam"

so bats aint unique in that regard
least he explain how he knows his stuff

I hardly know where to start.

"Nearly all the JLA seem to UBER geniuses" Let's check who's been in JLA lately:
Batman? Check
Superman? Off and on, so...Check
Flash? He fixes cars, so...No
Martian Manhunter? Haven't seen him do anything scientific for awhile, but he has in the past, so being generous...Check
Green Lantern (John)? Architect, pretty smart but UBER genius....No
Green Arrow? Makes arrows (cool arrows, but still arrows)....No
Hawkman? Hits things with mace....No
Zatanna? Talks backwards....No
Aquaman? Please...No
Green Lantern (Hal)? Let's see, test pilot, insurance salesman, toy salesman, etc.....No
Elongated Man? *Snicker*...No
Atom? Hasn't been seen lately, but I'll throw you a bone cause he was in ID...Check

So by my count (and being REAL generous) thats 4 UBERs, to 8 NOTs. If I left anyone out (that's been there lately), please let me know.

Next... Ok, you don't like Spider-Man, but can we stick to facts? He was established as a science whiz in his first appearance, he graduated high school, went on to college on a science scholarship, graduated, went on to post-graduate and probably has a Phd by now (haven't been reading for years). So he is not a "high school dropout". Also "sentient computer" does not equal "web-shooter".

Next... "Most A list comic heroes..." Just plain silly. For every super who built his own tech to become "fill-in-the-blank-man", I can site a dozen who lucked into it.

[Jolly Mon]

No, no. You miss my point. How will the writers justify him just "forgetting" how to do so much that he knows???

So, if I am understanding your point, writers shouldn't suddenly change a character's capabilities without establishing or explaining it in some way?

Wasn't that the premise behind my initial post? Isn't that somewhat inconsistent with your UBER-Bat position?

[titanfan]

So what, those women in the middle ages were geniuses for helping deliver a baby? Are you serious?

How often do you see a surgeon or scientist delivering a baby in a hospital for someone else when there's an obstetrician nearby?

[Jolly Mon]

How often do you see a surgeon or scientist delivering a baby in a hospital for someone else when there's an obstetrician nearby?

A lot of that is due to sky-high malpractice rates involved with ob-gyn, rather than level of difficulty. :D

[Chad G.]

So, if I am understanding your point, writers shouldn't suddenly change a character's capabilities without establishing or explaining it in some way?

Wasn't that the premise behind my initial post? Isn't that somewhat inconsistent with your UBER-Bat position?

Trust me, you didn't understand my point. I see NO problem with Batman, Batdick, Batgod, or whatever people want to call him. Right now, I like him more than ever. I'm saying there is no easily explainable way for him to suddenly go POOF and forget how to do half of what he does. And according to several posts on this and other threads, some would like Bats to revert to cro-magnon ability and just catch muggers. He is where he is. What is the point in a U-turn short of jealousy over what some may feel is having their favorite characters forgotten.

[Matt Algren]

What is the point in a U-turn short of jealousy over what some may feel is having their favorite characters forgotten.
Better stories. Believe it or not, it really is that simple.

[IamtheRock3]

I hardly know where to start.

"Nearly all the JLA seem to UBER geniuses" Let's check who's been in JLA lately:
Batman? Check
Superman? Off and on, so...Check
Flash? He fixes cars, so...No
Martian Manhunter? Haven't seen him do anything scientific for awhile, but he has in the past, so being generous...Check
Green Lantern (John)? Architect, pretty smart but UBER genius....No
Green Arrow? Makes arrows (cool arrows, but still arrows)....No
Hawkman? Hits things with mace....No
Zatanna? Talks backwards....No
Aquaman? Please...No
Green Lantern (Hal)? Let's see, test pilot, insurance salesman, toy salesman, etc.....No
Elongated Man? *Snicker*...No
Atom? Hasn't been seen lately, but I'll throw you a bone cause he was in ID...Check

So by my count (and being REAL generous) thats 4 UBERs, to 8 NOTs. If I left anyone out (that's been there lately), please let me know.

Next... Ok, you don't like Spider-Man, but can we stick to facts? He was established as a science whiz in his first appearance, he graduated high school, went on to college on a science scholarship, graduated, went on to post-graduate and probably has a Phd by now (haven't been reading for years). So he is not a "high school dropout". Also "sentient computer" does not equal "web-shooter".

Next... "Most A list comic heroes..." Just plain silly. For every super who built his own tech to become "fill-in-the-blank-man", I can site a dozen who lucked into it.

Martian manhunter been known to working on science project in his book, master Detetive too
Barry Allen use to be a Super Genius
Even wally built contraptions to help him...Read some of Flash books he get Tece when the time comes. Can think at light speed too


Hawkman, Green Arrow, Zantana not on The JLA if your argument current JLA

It just most of these guys DONT NEED to pull scientific..stuff..but they CAN. The fact they dont need to..Let DC STILLS make then uber genius..is to me worst then Batman

But if you going through some member who been on IC

BOOSTER GOLD- Genius...creates Tece every now and Then
mr Terrifc- Genius
Blue beetle- Bulit his Car, and his Tece


Who says I didnt like Spiderman?
Like just applying there a lot of Super Genius in comic. When even your nerdy Teen can put Stephen Hawkins to shame at the age of 15

[Eliseu Gouveia]

What is the point in a U-turn short of jealousy over what some may feel is having their favorite characters forgotten.


I keep seeing this argument popping out everywhere:
"Fans are jealous because Batman can do this and that."
No, we´re not.

I used to love Ironman.
Smart tech genious who built an armor that made him this and that.
At some stage, some writer decided that Tony was so smart that he could mess around with alien tech, understand concepts designed by civilizxations thousand of years ahead of our time and build plot device armours that could take anything in the universe.
My interest in the character flew away with my suspension of disbelief.

I used to love Daredevil.
Back in the day when he was a human who´d got back home with his face turned into paté after encounters with mere street hooligans.
Now, he´s the be-all end-all of everything martial arts, dodging bullets in bullet time and owning everyone short of Spider-man.
Look how fast my interest and my suspension of disbelief went >Banf!<

I never liked Batman.
In my eyes, he´s a fascist wet dream.
However, there was some potential in him, especially the human angle which had oodles of material to explore.
The moment he became Batgod, guess what happened to that human angle?
Same thing as any potential interest I could have had in the character

[Chad G.]

I keep seeing this argument popping out everywhere:
"Fans are jealous because Batman can do this and that."
No, we´re not.



Wonderful post. But you obviously didn't read mine very well. I didn't say jealous because he "could do this and that". I think I SAID, that people were jealous over having their favorite characters forgotten and pushed to the side in favor of the promotion of the Batman line of comics and the Bat family. How many Bats related comics are there out there, Versus how many Hawkman? Or Green Arrow? Or Green Lantern? Its an easy point to understand I would have thought. DC knows that Batman moves product. And no matter how much we like to debate jealousy over Batman, the comic book industy os just that, an industry. A business. And to survive, a business must make profit. SO if that means 20 Batman titles, yippee. I don't have a problem with that.

In my eyes, he´s a fascist wet dream.


:cool: Really? I'm sorry.

[Eliseu Gouveia]

Wonderful post. But you obviously didn't read mine very well. I didn't say jealous because he "could do this and that". I think I SAID, that people were jealous over having their favorite characters forgotten and pushed to the side in favor of the promotion of the Batman line of comics and the Bat family. How many Bats related comics are there out there, Versus how many Hawkman? Or Green Arrow? Or Green Lantern? Its an easy point to understand I would have thought. DC knows that Batman moves product. And no matter how much we like to debate jealousy over Batman, the comic book industy os just that, an industry. A business. And to survive, a business must make profit. SO if that means 20 Batman titles, yippee. I don't have a problem with that.

My apologies, then.
Still, the jealousy issue is uncalled for.

I could care less if Batman sells 100,000 more copies than my favorite titles or has a fan following the size of Kansas.

I like more obscure characters.
Like Cloak and Dagger or Batgirl.

Heck, I´m more concerned over the fact that my favorite DC character, Supergirl isn´t the Supergirl I grew up with than the fact that she sells less comics than Bats.

[IamtheRock3]

My apologies, then.
Still, the jealousy issue is uncalled for.

I could care less if Batman sells 100,000 more copies than my favorite titles or has a fan following the size of Kansas.

I like more obscure characters.
Like Cloak and Dagger or Batgirl.

Heck, I´m more concerned over the fact that my favorite DC character, Supergirl isn´t the Supergirl I grew up with than the fact that she sells less comics than Bats.


Think he saying the fact Batman takes the spot light so those obscure character cant shine may piss people off. Think that least SOME people REAL beef with Bats knowing this stuff.

his argument the reason why he does..is comic sale when he takes the spot light

Really think about it kind of OUT OF CHARCTER for him to be a regular team member on the JLA..help them from time to time but it really not his thing

But DC hear CHING CHING..and people seem to LIKE it when they have him on there. So Batman can take the spot ligt

[Chad G.]

My apologies, then.
Still, the jealousy issue is uncalled for.

I could care less if Batman sells 100,000 more copies than my favorite titles or has a fan following the size of Kansas.

I like more obscure characters.
Like Cloak and Dagger or Batgirl.

Heck, I´m more concerned over the fact that my favorite DC character, Supergirl isn´t the Supergirl I grew up with than the fact that she sells less comics than Bats.

I see your point, and I am not in total disagreement. I also like Batgirl. And I think the sun rises and sets by Deathstroke. But I don't like or dislike a character based on their popularity. I base my judgement on a character on how they appeal to me as a person.

[Wonder Dude]

bat-mite was secretly making him smarter. Now he stops.

Excellent Post :D

[trickster]

How often do you see a surgeon or scientist delivering a baby in a hospital for someone else when there's an obstetrician nearby?
How many people do you know that can even stop a hemorhage (spelling?) nowadays? What's you point?

[Jolly Mon]

Trust me, you didn't understand my point. I see NO problem with Batman, Batdick, Batgod, or whatever people want to call him. Right now, I like him more than ever. I'm saying there is no easily explainable way for him to suddenly go POOF and forget how to do half of what he does. And according to several posts on this and other threads, some would like Bats to revert to cro-magnon ability and just catch muggers. He is where he is. What is the point in a U-turn short of jealousy over what some may feel is having their favorite characters forgotten.

We agree, there is no easily explainable way for him to suddenly forget all of the things he has been doing.

My point is there was never any even slightly explained way of how he knew how to do them in the first place.

My solution is just as easy. They had him suddenly able to build sentient computers without explaination, he just did it. So don't explain how he can't do it anymore, just don't have him do it. The character would still be the smartest guy on the JLA, he would just delegate the tech that he doesn't need to understand. Easy.

[IamtheRock3]

We agree, there is no easily explainable way for him to suddenly forget all of the things he has been doing.

My point is there was never any even slightly explained way of how he knew how to do them in the first place.

My solution is just as easy. They had him suddenly able to build sentient computers without explaination, he just did it. So don't explain how he can't do it anymore, just don't have him do it. The character would still be the smartest guy on the JLA, he would just delegate the tech that he doesn't need to understand. Easy.


Well not like this a Recent thing

Blind Justice least Explain a good portion of this stuff. He does have speed reaing and Photographic reading

Sure a stress..but that enough Rope in a comic book world..where training for few days can you make you a kung fu master that can take out a room full of thugs, Henchmen and career criminals

[rickfury188]

As it has been stated before, Batman should be highly skilled in various fields. He is not "normal" as most people say. Yes, he may be human, but he can learn faster than most people and is able to attain the knowledge easier. I always pictured a young Bruce Wayne a short time after his parent's death sitting in his library spending hours reading everything he could get his hands on because he realized that one day he would need it. He read and exercised his mind before he could exercise his body. Batman should be an expert in practically every single martial art on the face of the Earth because he trained his entire life, and is still training and practicing every chance he gets. The knowledge he gains from martial arts can be applied to other skills he has such as: reading body language to know what his opponent is doing/thinking, knowing how to position one's self to take down someone bigger or faster than him, understanding the human anatomy. Another good point is that he is considered The World's Greatest Detective. According to Wikipedia, a detective does street work, analyzes forensic evidence, and records investigations. He has to have a broad range of knowledge for this. My last thought is this: I always picture Batman as working behind the scenes making things possible by doing research or carefully planning for the JLA.

[karasu]

Batman should be an expert in practically every single martial art on the face of the Earth because he trained his entire life, and is still training and practicing every chance he gets.


There are over 300 chinese martial arts alone. Let alone martial arts from every other country on the planet. can't the guy just be a great fighter, and a great detective? What's all of this "best" garbage.

[saintsaucey]

Okay, I don't have a lot of time here because my ride will be shortyly.

1. Harold is dead. It happened in Hush

2. Technically he didn't design the satalite the way we saw it. Alex Luthor stole it and hid it in a slightly different reality and upgraded it which is why Bruce couldn't find it. Maybe he used the mother box to transport it there, maybe he used a javalin, maybe he tricked superman to take it there for him. He now uses the new Toyman to build his stuff. got to go rides here.

[Choppa]

And in S/B he relies on that Japanese kid to build him stuff. And yeah we can thank Jeph Loeb for killing Harold for no obvious reason.

[literally exaggerated]

I honestly don't see the big deal. Reed Richards is presented as being smarter than Batman by a good margin, no one seems to care about that. And Dr. Doom is not only smarter than Bats by a good amount, he's also got the same "great at absolutely everything" thing going on, only he knows magic too. Most fans don't seem to have a problem with that. Why should Batman be held to a completely different standard? Yeah, many or his enemiess are street levellers, but many are not, and even those that are are typically supergeniuses and/or in some way make use of scifi tech. Batman nearly singlehandedly protects an entire city of those guys, while simultaneously lending a hand in fighting off massive, earth-threatening threats alongside aliens and gods. If this was Batman Begins or Year One or something and he started building all that crazy stuff, I could understand the outcry, but Batman hasn't been held to any sort of standard of realism for like 90% of his existence, so whats the problem with him being a comic book level supergenius?

[shaunyc56]

Actually I don't think Batman is presented as knowing everything. He as appropriated Tsphere tech, used Harold, and the new Toyman. Batman is gifted, and has alot of training, but his best skills are finding people w/ the skills to accentuate his own.

[Francis]

I don't honestly see the problem with Batman having built a satellite. What he'll have done is taken one computer module, one power unit (probably actually two - one solar, and one battery), one thruster (for minor orbital adjustments) and a few other things and bolted them all together. Then he'll have put it in space and voilla, instant satellite.

There is one reason - and one reason alone - why building a satellite is hard. The restrictions on what can be put on a satellite are very tight because there are a lot of space and weight restrictions on what a rocket (or shuttle) will take up and put in orbit. Batman is not affected by this restriction as he has access to Martian/Thangarian/Rannian/New Gods/Random Alien tech (probably borrowed from the Watchtower) that could lift something the size of a towerblock. Therefore he can put just about anything into orbit - meaning that putting any sort of satellite into orbit is not going to be a problem. Meaning that he can build it entirely out of stock parts and seriously over-engineer it in places. In short, it isn't as hard as it looks.

I again have no problem with Batman having designed the JLA security system. He's one of the experts in the DCU at breaking and entering (Selena's probably better, as are a few others) meaning that he knows how to place security to make breaking and entering hard. Set a thief to catch a thief... He's also an expert (again as a side effect of his detective skills) at dealing with metahuman abilities - meaning that he knows what sort of defences are likely to slow or stop metahumans. So the types and placement of such security devices are certainly in line with his skills. And finally who says he did a great job of JLA security given the number of times the watchtower's been broken into?

Anti-toxins aren't as bad as people think. There's no such thing as an antidote (except in incredibly rare cases IIRC). What you need for an anti-toxin is actually an antagonist to the toxin - something that does the opposite thing to the toxin in a similar timeframe. This mostly takes getting a clear idea of the symptoms caused, and using a database to get the closest match to the reverse symptoms (to bring the overall effect into the region the body can take - and then heal itself). The reason anti-toxins are such a problem is that used improperly, they are every bit as damaging as the original toxin was - and there is almost no margin of error.

As for building armour to take Bizarro on, you really think that his files don't have armour designs that have been used to take superman on in them? And exposing his weakness is more being a detective than anything else.

And a lot of "his" inventions are either purloined from other sources (with the serial numbers filed off and a bat logo stuck on - most of those who recognise this take it as a compliment) or more or less stock parts stuck together in unconventional ways. And it was mentioned (IIRC in the Red Hood arc) that Kord Industries had been inventing most of the gadgets Batman used.

In short, most of the feats mentioned (barring the hacking into an alien database - which is impossible) are either close to Batman's core skills or a lot easier than they look if you have the right knowledge. And PhD level isn't actually as useful as many of you seem to think - the study for the PhD is (after the normal degree) largely three years of study on an extremely obscure point on the fringes of knowledge - Batman has the absolute opposite - he knows well-trodden paths and is very good at fitting them together.

[hmnut73]

I honestly don't see the big deal. Reed Richards is presented as being smarter than Batman by a good margin, no one seems to care about that. And Dr. Doom is not only smarter than Bats by a good amount, he's also got the same "great at absolutely everything" thing going on, only he knows magic too. Most fans don't seem to have a problem with that. Why should Batman be held to a completely different standard? Yeah, many or his enemiess are street levellers, but many are not, and even those that are are typically supergeniuses and/or in some way make use of scifi tech. Batman nearly singlehandedly protects an entire city of those guys, while simultaneously lending a hand in fighting off massive, earth-threatening threats alongside aliens and gods. If this was Batman Begins or Year One or something and he started building all that crazy stuff, I could understand the outcry, but Batman hasn't been held to any sort of standard of realism for like 90% of his existence, so whats the problem with him being a comic book level supergenius?

I do like the comparsion between Bats and Richards and Doom, because a) there are more than a few people I know who say Bats is smarter than both of them but I disagree.

I guess this clears up for me what the problem is. It's not so much that Bats is a supergenius it's that he is a supergenius when it fits his needs to be one.

Both Reed and Doom have always been Supergeniuses in science and/or magic and that's fine, but if I picked up an issue of the Fantastic Four and it had Reed taking down a bad guy using super advanced Martial Arts all of a sudden, I would totally roll my eyes.

Batman's genius is totally selective, he is a genius to the problem right in front of him, if he is really an expert in all these science fields, robotics, buisness, crime fighting, martial arts and more, then how can not we believe this uber-human mind can't find a way to build a prison that will hold the Joker. Or how can we believe that he can't for see every crime that will happen in Gotham and before it happens, in fact with all his skills, training and money he should have long ago figured out a way to stop crime in at least Gotham if not the world.

Reed doesn't have the passion for fighting actual crime that Batman does, he is at his heart a scienctist and an explorer so the things he does with his genuis are related to that. Doom builds things to take over the world, he uses his genuis for that goal. Batman rarely uses his genuis to actually persue his goal of crime fighting unless something is right in front of his face that requires him to be a genuis at that moment.

[shaunyc56]

I don't honestly see the problem with Batman having built a satellite. What he'll have done is taken one computer module, one power unit (probably actually two - one solar, and one battery), one thruster (for minor orbital adjustments) and a few other things and bolted them all together. Then he'll have put it in space and voilla, instant satellite.

There is one reason - and one reason alone - why building a satellite is hard. The restrictions on what can be put on a satellite are very tight because there are a lot of space and weight restrictions on what a rocket (or shuttle) will take up and put in orbit. Batman is not affected by this restriction as he has access to Martian/Thangarian/Rannian/New Gods/Random Alien tech (probably borrowed from the Watchtower) that could lift something the size of a towerblock. Therefore he can put just about anything into orbit - meaning that putting any sort of satellite into orbit is not going to be a problem. Meaning that he can build it entirely out of stock parts and seriously over-engineer it in places. In short, it isn't as hard as it looks.

I again have no problem with Batman having designed the JLA security system. He's one of the experts in the DCU at breaking and entering (Selena's probably better, as are a few others) meaning that he knows how to place security to make breaking and entering hard. Set a thief to catch a thief... He's also an expert (again as a side effect of his detective skills) at dealing with metahuman abilities - meaning that he knows what sort of defences are likely to slow or stop metahumans. So the types and placement of such security devices are certainly in line with his skills. And finally who says he did a great job of JLA security given the number of times the watchtower's been broken into?

Anti-toxins aren't as bad as people think. There's no such thing as an antidote (except in incredibly rare cases IIRC). What you need for an anti-toxin is actually an antagonist to the toxin - something that does the opposite thing to the toxin in a similar timeframe. This mostly takes getting a clear idea of the symptoms caused, and using a database to get the closest match to the reverse symptoms (to bring the overall effect into the region the body can take - and then heal itself). The reason anti-toxins are such a problem is that used improperly, they are every bit as damaging as the original toxin was - and there is almost no margin of error.

As for building armour to take Bizarro on, you really think that his files don't have armour designs that have been used to take superman on in them? And exposing his weakness is more being a detective than anything else.

And a lot of "his" inventions are either purloined from other sources (with the serial numbers filed off and a bat logo stuck on - most of those who recognise this take it as a compliment) or more or less stock parts stuck together in unconventional ways. And it was mentioned (IIRC in the Red Hood arc) that Kord Industries had been inventing most of the gadgets Batman used.

In short, most of the feats mentioned (barring the hacking into an alien database - which is impossible) are either close to Batman's core skills or a lot easier than they look if you have the right knowledge. And PhD level isn't actually as useful as many of you seem to think - the study for the PhD is (after the normal degree) largely three years of study on an extremely obscure point on the fringes of knowledge - Batman has the absolute opposite - he knows well-trodden paths and is very good at fitting them together.


The man owns a billion dollar company. He can get a satelite in the air, say it's for one thing but actually have spy tech in it, just like goverment satelites, hell he can say, "Waynetech is looking into the Satelite Television Market". The tech to spy on people already exists, you just got to know who to look at.

[Alan2099]

A few more things on the Reed/Doom/Batman comparison.

Reed is just a scientist. he's not a scientiest, a psychologist, a detective, a martial artist, a racecar driver, Elvis Impersonator, and whatever else Batman decides he's good at this week. Reed is JUST a sceintist, and they frequently point out that he dedicates so much energy into being a scientist that he really doesn't get pretty much anything else. He's horrible with people, he often neglects his own health and family, etc etc. Batman is the best at everything and doesn't really suffer from over exerting himself in any field (the majaority of the time.) Even when they do bring up his poor social skills it's usually shown as being cool. He's a cool dark and gritty loner. Not being good with people is painted as a possitive thing.

As for Doom, Doom is the villian. Villians are supposed to outclass the hero, otherwise the story isn't as intresting. Honestly, I think DC tends to fauil in this regard alot. They tend to overpower all their heroes and let the villians struggle with trying to win. That's just not as intresting seeing the bad guys as always outmatched.

[phantom1592]

I've been complaining about this for a long time. The batman I liked was the one that planned on fighting crime. He studied for years the fields he needed to know. Psychology, Criminology,forensis, etc. He was the greatest Detective. He was also a great fighter.

Batman was the mask, Bruce was the man who went to college to become a cop, before he learned about the Red tape that ties Cops up. Then came the bat in the window.

He was a much better character then. Now he can rebuild androids?!!? He stopped being a detective around the same time that Oracle showed up. Now he just tells her a name or place and she gives him everything he needs to know.

The fact that he learned EVERYTHING, Mastered EVERY martial art, Olympic level gymanast, raised three kids, Fights crime at night, and still maintains the playboy persona..... Now it's just dumb.

Batman is meant to be a detective who can do what the cops can't. And really that's about it.

[algertman]

What's the problem with Batman being so damn good. HE'S THE GOD DAMN BATMAN!

Of course he's best at everything

[Eliseu Gouveia]

What's the problem with Batman being so damn good. HE'S THE GOD DAMN BATMAN!

Of course he's best at everything

Well, he´s also supposed to be human.

And a human normally has to sell his very soul to the devil to be the best a ONE field of expertise.

Batman, on the other hand, is the best at EVERYTHING!

That guy that studied and trained his WHOLE LIFE to be the greatest cybernetic expert int he world?
Batman beat him just by studying 3 minutes in the locker every day between his fencing practice and his forensics exams.

That woman who practice and studied HARD her WHOLE LIFE to be the best chemical engineer in the world?
Batman beat her just by glancing over a couple chemistry books for 2 minutes in his room between his tae-kwon-do lessons and his quantum physics exams.

Human?
Yeah, sure.... and pigs can fly too.....

[Agent0]

Well, he´s also supposed to be human.

And a human normally has to sell his soul to the devil to be the best a ONE field of expertise.

Batman, on the other hand, is the best at EVERYTHING!

I didn't know Batman could build a android robot like Amazo, was a better medical expert then Dr. Midnight, was an engineer like John Henry Irons, or better has magical knowledge like Nabu. That's a surprise to me being the hardcore batfan that I am.

I do know that Batman is an expert in many areas some of which he is better at then others. We know he's the world's best detective for example but I don't recall him EVER being named as the best scientist, doctor, leader, etc...

But if you know something I don't please let me know I'd love to add the feats to my site.

That guys that studied and trained his WHOLE LIFE to be the greatest cybernetic expert int he world?
Batman beat him just by studying 3 minutes in the locker every day between his fencing practice and his forensics exams.

That woman who practice and studied HARD her WHOLE LIFE to be the best chemical engineer in the world?
Batman beat her just by glancing over a couple chemistry books for 2 minutes in his room between his tae-kwon-do lessons and his quantum physics exams.

Human?
Yeah, sure.... and pigs can fly too.....

Batman is considered exceptional because his mind.

Put it this way...

If knowledge is power then Batman is king because he's a jack of all trades. Meaning he's not the best at everything as you claim he is but rather he's well versed in many areas as he's meant to be. Batman's one true super power is his mind take that away from him and he's not Batman anymore.

At a very young age we saw Batman mentally devote himself to knowledge by mastering total recall and speed reading which enabled him to learn things much more faster then others. This shouldn't be a surprise to anyone who actually knows about his training.

Batman is meant to be a detective who can do what the cops can't. And really that's about it.

Having read his background story and training how exactly is this is true? Batman trained himself to be diverse in many areas to prepare himself for many things. Admitedly, he did only expect to battle criminals instead of metas and other threats that we've seen face but as time moved on he realized he had to adapt and prepare himself for many different threats instead of just the average criminals on the street.

[prand_2002]

I cant believe people accept a amazon princess made of clay, a guy who runs at the speed of light, a man with a ring that runs on willpower, a martian and another alien from a planet called krypton, but cant accept a guy who is good at various fields. This comparing comics to reality has to stop.

Batman is the most popular character in DCU. Hence he is written as a better hero than others. This pisses the other fanboys and as a result we get threads like this.

[Francis]

Well, he´s also supposed to be human.

And a human normally has to sell his very soul to the devil to be the best a ONE field of expertise.

Batman, on the other hand, is the best at EVERYTHING!

That guy that studied and trained his WHOLE LIFE to be the greatest cybernetic expert int he world?
Batman beat him just by studying 3 minutes in the locker every day between his fencing practice and his forensics exams.

Could you give me a source on that please? When it comes to computing, Oracle, Lex Luthor, Prometheus, and numerous others are better than Batman. Batman is just pretty good. (Hell, I think Ted Kord was better with most tech than Batman).

That woman who practice and studied HARD her WHOLE LIFE to be the best chemical engineer in the world?
Batman beat her just by glancing over a couple chemistry books for 2 minutes in his room between his tae-kwon-do lessons and his quantum physics exams.

And again, you appear to be talking nonsense. I do not recall Batman being better at biochemistry than e.g. Poison Ivy or Neurochemistry than e.g. Scarecrow. Hell, I think that Lex Luthor is probably better than Batman at both computers and chemistry.

Human?
Yeah, sure.... and pigs can fly too.....

If you think that being in the right situation, with enough knowledge and understanding to be able to produce something useful = being the absolute expert ever, no wonder you have odd views on human.

He was a much better character then.

And completely unsuited for the JLA. He developed and his skills diversified.

Now he can rebuild androids?!!?

With the blueprints and a bit of expertise (not to mention almost unlimited resources), all it takes is time and working out how the parts fit together - i.e. sufficient patience and detective work to do a very complicated 3d jigsaw. Rebuilding != building (it's a lot easier as the really complicated conceptual work has already been done).

He stopped being a detective around the same time that Oracle showed up. Now he just tells her a name or place and she gives him everything he needs to know.

One of the few decisions Dan Dodo has made that I support was to make sure Oracle left Gotham for that reason.

The fact that he learned EVERYTHING, Mastered EVERY martial art, Olympic level gymanast,

Once you've got about half a dozen martial arts, the rest become easy. There are a limited number of ways the body can move and a limited number of ways it can be folded up and a limited number of ways it is vulnerable. Once you've got those down to reflexes, you can see them in different martial arts and they become easy. Then there are only a few oddballs left like Capoeira, Silat, and Drunken Boxing. (It's the same with languages - your first language is very hard, your second is also very hard - but your thirty first is going to be trivial). And to be that good at martial arts, your body needs to be strong, powerful, and conditioned enough that you are probably a national standard gymnast.

And he hasn't mastered every martial arts technique - Shiva (and a few others) still have tricks (such as Cass's resurrection and the ability to read body language like a book) that he lacks. He's an amazing amateur - but lacks the depth of knowledge a professional has.

raised three kids,

One. Dick. Jason wasn't around for that long and Tim was mostly raised by his biological father.

Fights crime at night, and still maintains the playboy persona..... Now it's just dumb.

The only bit I really see as a problem is the playboy persona.

[literally exaggerated]

Batman isn't the best at everything. He's the best detective in the DCU, and one could make the argument that he's the best strategist and the greatest master of psychological warfare in the DCU as well. Thats about it.

Everything else, he's like #2-#5. Brilliant at computers, but narrowly edged by Oracle, the Caculator and a few others. Brilliant scientist/engineer, but rivalled or exceeded in that area by a few guys like Ray Palmer and John Henry Irons. One of the greatest fighters in the world, but supposedly not quite on the level of Cass or Shiva. Fantastic marksman, but narrowly exceeded by Deadshot and maybe a couple of others.

He is, however, the greatest jack-of-alll-trades in the DCU, by far. I mean, #2-#5 is still incredibly impressive. A brilliant genius can spend their entire life studying engineering and be nowhere near the second best engineer in the world. For Batman to have reached that ability level in virtually every human discipline is incredibly impressive, and blatantly impossible by any real world standard.

But I like it that way. What Flash is to speed and Hal is to willpower, Bruce is to intelligence. He's the smartest man in the world, and in comic books that goes a long way towards allowing you to do some crazy stuff.

[jackups]

Yeah and loads od Bat issuies have shown Bruce as Boy dismantling everything he can find to learn how it works!

[phantom1592]

I didn't know Batman could build a android robot like Amazo, was a better medical expert then Dr. Midnight, was an engineer like John Henry Irons, or better has magical knowledge like Nabu. That's a surprise to me being the hardcore batfan that I am.

I do know that Batman is an expert in many areas some of which he is better at then others. We know he's the world's best detective for example but I don't recall him EVER being named as the best scientist, doctor, leader, etc...

But if you know something I don't please let me know I'd love to add the feats to my site.


Well he did just put Tornado back together with no problem. I don't know many GENIUSES that could take the blueprints for an android like that and not have him hitting walls, loss of memory, SOME kind of glitch that would require a ROBOT expert to help out.

It has to be assumed that he built the cave. That's not the kind of thing he could have outsourced, and he's built super armor before, though not sure how often the armor has been IN continuity.






Batman is considered exceptional because his mind.

Put it this way...

If knowledge is power then Batman is king because he's a jack of all trades. Meaning he's not the best at everything as you claim he is but rather he's well versed in many areas as he's meant to be. Batman's one true super power is his mind take that away from him and he's not Batman anymore.

At a very young age we saw Batman mentally devote himself to knowledge by mastering total recall and speed reading which enabled him to learn things much more faster then others. This shouldn't be a surprise to anyone who actually knows about his training. .

When did it say that Bruce had a photo memory? I NEVER heard this. I know BATGIRL has one. That's what the whole Oracle thing is all about. If she's seen it or heard it, she knows it. All the origins I saw with Bruce actually show him Studying while the other boys are out playing.

I have no real problem with him "dabbling" in multiple fields, but the Jack of all trades is by definition a master of NONE. He should be able to recognize the problem and then find the expert he needs. I also don't have a problem with him dealing with the "earthly" sciences. He can create antidotes with Chemistry, and enough Medical to perform autopsies etc. Technology that is alien, or considered "super-science" (robots, Teleporters, Space ships) Those are not the kind of thing he knows about. There was nobody to TEACH him when he was young, and now... Now he's just too busy.


Having read his background story and training how exactly is this is true? Batman trained himself to be diverse in many areas to prepare himself for many things. Admitedly, he did only expect to battle criminals instead of metas and other threats that we've seen face but as time moved on he realized he had to adapt and prepare himself for many different threats instead of just the average criminals on the street.


There is a difference between having a diverse education, and knowing things that can't be learned. They took him TOO far, much like Wolverine. Once your the BEST, then there are no challenges.

[literally exaggerated]

no, there exist massive challenges for Bruce. they just don't come in the form of remotely normal humans. he might be the best human, but he regularly tangles with enemies capable of destroying cities, sometimes worlds, singlehandedly. He's still the biggest underdog in the JLA most of the time.

[literally exaggerated]

As for Doom, Doom is the villian. Villians are supposed to outclass the hero, otherwise the story isn't as intresting. Honestly, I think DC tends to fauil in this regard alot. They tend to overpower all their heroes and let the villians struggle with trying to win. That's just not as intresting seeing the bad guys as always outmatched.

But part of the whole point of batman is that he's like a villain working on the side of good. He's the dark, manipulative rich guy who sets cunning traps and fights dirty as hell. He's like Lex Luthor, only with morals.

[lucifernomi]

Once you've got about half a dozen martial arts, the rest become easy. There are a limited number of ways the body can move and a limited number of ways it can be folded up and a limited number of ways it is vulnerable.

There's some truth in that, but considering that he has it down to a level of expertise that he can specifically identify, and even limit himself to using only the techniques on any one or several obscure styles on a whim, shows a pretty astounding memory feat.

[shaunyc56]

[QUOTE=literally exaggerated]Batman isn't the best at everything. He's the best detective in the DCU, and one could make the argument that he's the best strategist and the greatest master of psychological warfare in the DCU as well. Thats about it.

Everything else, he's like #2-#5. Brilliant at computers, but narrowly edged by Oracle, the Caculator and a few others. Brilliant scientist/engineer, but rivalled or exceeded in that area by a few guys like Ray Palmer and John Henry Irons. One of the greatest fighters in the world, but supposedly not quite on the level of Cass or Shiva. Fantastic marksman, but narrowly exceeded by Deadshot and maybe a couple of others.

This is the best explanation of Batman's skillset I have ever heard. He's not the best at anything except detective work. Everything else, top 5-10. What he does not know he appropriates, or he gets the expert to do for him. You can see this in him using T-Spheres, having Doctor Midnite look at Barbara's legs, going to Jason Blood in matters of magic, etc,...

The reason he has to be so good at everything is simple. He represents the best of humanity. He can't just stand behind Superalien, he has to be equal. You got Aliens going rouge, amazons killing people, and guys in armor suits hallucinating. The Best of humanity has to be there to keep it all in check. Otherwise the humans in the DCU become spectators in their own world.

[shaunyc56]

But part of the whole point of batman is that he's like a villain working on the side of good. He's the dark, manipulative rich guy who sets cunning traps and fights dirty as hell. He's like Lex Luthor, only with morals.


Best example of that, Batman convinces and pays Capt. Cold to use his latest Flash fighting device to the betterment of Gotham citizens, and get this, Flash gets pissed off. Douchebag.

[phantom1592]

Could you give me a source on that please? When it comes to computing, Oracle, Lex Luthor, Prometheus, and numerous others are better than Batman. Batman is just pretty good. (Hell, I think Ted Kord was better with most tech than Batman).

And again, you appear to be talking nonsense. I do not recall Batman being better at biochemistry than e.g. Poison Ivy or Neurochemistry than e.g. Scarecrow. Hell, I think that Lex Luthor is probably better than Batman at both computers and chemistry.

They may create poisons and such buy Batman has no problems canceling them. Again as Chemistry/Drug effects was one of the fields he felt was needed, I have no problem with these.



And completely unsuited for the JLA. He developed and his skills diversified.


Unsuitable for the JLA? Then what the heck is Ted Kord? Why do people want Grayson on the team? I think that a Great fighter and a world class Detective would be quite useful on a team. The JLA isn't that picky. You don't HAVE to be able to take out Darkseid on your own in order to get a chair.



With the blueprints and a bit of expertise (not to mention almost unlimited resources), all it takes is time and working out how the parts fit together - i.e. sufficient patience and detective work to do a very complicated 3d jigsaw. Rebuilding != building (it's a lot easier as the really complicated conceptual work has already been done).


It's the expertise (implying Expert) that I have a problem with. Also he didn't use Time or Resources to do it. It really only took the one fight, MAYBE a day or so tops to put him back together, and he didn't use his money to hire experts to do it. The money was kind of useless here.



One of the few decisions Dan Dodo has made that I support was to make sure Oracle left Gotham for that reason.


Agreed. I really like Babs, but I think she really hurt the Batman Character.


One. Dick. Jason wasn't around for that long and Tim was mostly raised by his biological father.


Jason died pretty quick but he has done a LOT with Tim. In the early days he lived at the manor, and when his dad showed back up, he still spent more time overthere.



The only bit I really see as a problem is the playboy persona.

But its still there. It also is a more realistic part of the character. And it takes time! I guess if he were a character like Reed Richards who spent all day in a lab learning stuff, I wouldn't have a problem. Bruce has too many things that take up his time.

[Francis]

Well he did just put Tornado back together with no problem. I don't know many GENIUSES that could take the blueprints for an android like that and not have him hitting walls, loss of memory, SOME kind of glitch that would require a ROBOT expert to help out.

And I don't know any robots that are actually powered and controlled by elementals. I think that the Tornado's own internal power could overcome most such glitches.

It has to be assumed that he built the cave. That's not the kind of thing he could have outsourced,

There are ways. And I assumed the cave itself was already there before Batman...

and he's built super armor before, though not sure how often the armor has been IN continuity.

Given the amount of super armour floating around the DCU, it can't be that hard to make especially if you can afford to buy the blueprints (if not the makers).

When did it say that Bruce had a photo memory? I NEVER heard this. I know BATGIRL has one. That's what the whole Oracle thing is all about. If she's seen it or heard it, she knows it. All the origins I saw with Bruce actually show him Studying while the other boys are out playing.

AFAIK, Bruce only has a trained memory and a well organised one good at spotting connections. For most of the things he does with it, that's almost certainly stronger than a photographic memory (which need not flag up connections even if the trivia is known).

I have no real problem with him "dabbling" in multiple fields, but the Jack of all trades is by definition a master of NONE.

Other than martial arts and detective work, what is he actually a master of?

He should be able to recognize the problem and then find the expert he needs.

You mean he doesn't regularly go to Jason Blood or Zantana Zatara about mystical issues? You mean he doesn't have his gagets built by Harold, Toymaster 2, or Kord Industries? You mean that he didn't have Oracle do most of the hacking he needed doing? You mean that he did all the medical care on the Batfamily rather than sending it across to Leslie for mid level work or asking Dr. Midnite in real emergencies (such as the recent Birds of Brey Oracle/Braniac mess)? You mean he didn't appropriate Mr. Terrific's T-Spheres when he needed them? You mean that he doesn't tell other members of the JLA the best use of their powers to solve specific problems? You mean he didn't go to Lady Shiva to get his martial arts upgraded after Knightfall? All those are news to me.

I also don't have a problem with him dealing with the "earthly" sciences. He can create antidotes with Chemistry, and enough Medical to perform autopsies etc. Technology that is alien, or considered "super-science" (robots, Teleporters, Space ships) Those are not the kind of thing he knows about. There was nobody to TEACH him when he was young, and now... Now he's just too busy.

I'm pretty sure that Batman only needs five hours sleep a night (some people do) - and that he takes about an hour a day studying (and a further hour training) to keep on top of the game.

There is a difference between having a diverse education, and knowing things that can't be learned. They took him TOO far, much like Wolverine. Once your the BEST, then there are no challenges.

He's pushing the envelope, certainly.

Unsuitable for the JLA? Then what the heck is Ted Kord?

A gadgeteer - and comic relief. Oh, and dead.

Why do people want Grayson on the team?

He's the best leader and field commander anywhere in the DCU. Something the JLA simply doesn't have.

I think that a Great fighter and a world class Detective would be quite useful on a team.

Quite useful, certainly. J'onn is also a great fighter and world class Detective...

Bruce has too many things that take up his time.

That I'm not disagreeing with. Particularly Monitor Duty in the JLA watchtower...

[Agent0]

Well he did just put Tornado back together with no problem. I don't know many GENIUSES that could take the blueprints for an android like that and not have him hitting walls, loss of memory, SOME kind of glitch that would require a ROBOT expert to help out.

It has to be assumed that he built the cave. That's not the kind of thing he could have outsourced, and he's built super armor before, though not sure how often the armor has been IN continuity.

Are your saying that Batman shouldn't be able to put back together an android like Red Tornado because he lacks the intelligence? Cause if thats the case you'd be wrong. The fact of the matter is that Batman is indeed a brilliant scientist and is experienced with studying alien tech having come across it MANY times before also having studied his teammates as shown in Tower of Babel why is it a surprise that he could rebuild Red Tornado?

Just because he's capable of feats like that doesn't mean he's the best in that area. He's acknowledges various people to be better in different areas several times.

When did it say that Bruce had a photo memory? I NEVER heard this. I know BATGIRL has one. That's what the whole Oracle thing is all about. If she's seen it or heard it, she knows it. All the origins I saw with Bruce actually show him Studying while the other boys are out playing.

No offense but I'm not surprised you haven't since you seem like you haven't read everything surrounding Bruce's training to become Batman. To answer your question, this is revealed in Shadow of the Bat #0 which covers some of Batman's training but not all of it. BTW, its just one interpertation of Batman's training compared to other writers but accurate none the less.

I have no real problem with him "dabbling" in multiple fields, but the Jack of all trades is by definition a master of NONE. He should be able to recognize the problem and then find the expert he needs. I also don't have a problem with him dealing with the "earthly" sciences. He can create antidotes with Chemistry, and enough Medical to perform autopsies etc. Technology that is alien, or considered "super-science" (robots, Teleporters, Space ships) Those are not the kind of thing he knows about. There was nobody to TEACH him when he was young, and now... Now he's just too busy.

Again, I'm trying to understand what your point of view here but are you saying he shouldn't be able to do things like this because you don't want him to or are you saying he shouldn't be able to do it because he's never shown he ability to?

It seems like your upset by the fact that Batman is capable of all these amazing things but don't want to accept the fact that he's capable of them because he was so well trained and learns so quickly from studying. That's how well his mind works it always has. With experience, Batman has only gotten much better as time went on.

There is a difference between having a diverse education, and knowing things that can't be learned.

What things that can't be learned? Explain.

According to you Batman should be only a master detective, good strategist, and a great fighter and thats it but what you don't want to accept is real evidence of Batman doing far more impressive things which comes across as unfair bias.

They took him TOO far, much like Wolverine. Once your the BEST, then there are no challenges.

Not true at all. Being the best doesn't mean your unbeatable or aren't challenged it simply means you stand above the rest. That's like someone saying that a world champ doesn't have to fight to defend their title when they fought and trained hard to win it in the first place.

Its not like we haven't seen Batman or Wolverine beaten or on the losing end of a fight before either. But we have seen them make great come backs in fights by using their best weapons. In Batman's case, it would be his wits more often then not as shown in his recent brawl with the Martian Manhunter poser in Superman/Batman #28 which is a great example.

[Alan2099]

I'm pretty sure that Batman only needs five hours sleep a night (some people do) - and that he takes about an hour a day studying (and a further hour training) to keep on top of the game.
They've established that Batman needs one hour of sleep a night due to some weird tibetten mideset or something he's learened.

[phantom1592]

And I don't know any robots that are actually powered and controlled by elementals. I think that the Tornado's own internal power could overcome most such glitches.


I don't know any robots at all :(



There are ways. And I assumed the cave itself was already there before Batman...



Yeah, but they don't show the cave as an oak desk and a laptop ;) It's usually some massive technilogical fortress with Multiple levels. Definetly requried some engineering and design, just to make sure it doesn't collapse


Given the amount of super armour floating around the DCU, it can't be that hard to make especially if you can afford to buy the blueprints (if not the makers).


hmmm... a lot of these answers seem weak to me. "Everyone has them, and the robot fixed itself" I don't know. Maybe it's me.


AFAIK, Bruce only has a trained memory and a well organised one good at spotting connections. For most of the things he does with it, that's almost certainly stronger than a photographic memory (which need not flag up connections even if the trivia is known).


Now that's a decent answer. This I can almost believe. Kind of a Sherlock Holmes memory attic. I don't like him having a Photo memory. That's a little to..... Unusual for an ordinary human to have. I can't remember if it was Marvel or DC, but one of the books had a comment about monitoring Superhumans. They had a list of all the people they were monitoring from the most powerful heroes, to that old lady that one the lotto 7 times. Things like that are DANGEROUSLY close to being considered "meta".

Batman works best as a HUMAN.


Other than martial arts and detective work, what is he actually a master of?


There are certain things that are prerequisets to other skills. For example, In order for me to do really well at... Calculus, I have to be great at early Algebra.

Now what kind of sciences does he have to be great at to even have a minor familiarity with Teleportation devices? Space ships? I'm getting bored with the sentient Robot example ;)



You mean he doesn't regularly go to Jason Blood or Zantana Zatara about mystical issues? You mean he doesn't have his gagets built by Harold, Toymaster 2, or Kord Industries? You mean that he didn't have Oracle do most of the hacking he needed doing? You mean that he did all the medical care on the Batfamily rather than sending it across to Leslie for mid level work or asking Dr. Midnite in real emergencies (such as the recent Birds of Brey Oracle/Braniac mess)? You mean he didn't appropriate Mr. Terrific's T-Spheres when he needed them? You mean that he doesn't tell other members of the JLA the best use of their powers to solve specific problems? You mean he didn't go to Lady Shiva to get his martial arts upgraded after Knightfall? All those are news to me.


C'mon.... Toymaker?!? How long has he been helping out? Harold wasn't around for very long either. All I remember him doing was building the Subway car, but I imagine he did some other stuff too. But he wasn't around for very long. I don't recall him doing much with Kord either, though I do know he stopped in BoP for a while.


He's the best leader and field commander anywhere in the DCU. Something the JLA simply doesn't have.

I like to see him as the leadership of Superman with the skills of Batman. He's ALSO a world class detective.


Quite useful, certainly. J'onn is also a great fighter and world class Detective...


Yeah but he cheats. They always show him as more of a telepath than a detective. If I can read your mind, I don't need to look for evidence.

[Francis]

I don't know any robots at all :(
Yeah, but they don't show the cave as an oak desk and a laptop ;) It's usually some massive technilogical fortress with Multiple levels. Definetly requried some engineering and design, just to make sure it doesn't collapse

Hmm... Offhand, I only recall most incarnations having one floor, flat round the computers (with some multipurpose space that can have things like a hospital bed), an area for physical practice, and an elongated staircase to the manor. But if it's more than that, there are several ways to hire workers without them knowing what they are doing. The most obvious is that you get WayneCorp a few government contracts for secret military installations and then tack the Batcave on as another one. And because it's secret government work, the workers would expect not to know exactly where they've been taken, making the Batcave much more of a possibility.

hmmm... a lot of these answers seem weak to me. "Everyone has them, and the robot fixed itself" I don't know. Maybe it's me.

No. They are "Enough people have them that a Billionaire Industrialist could get his hands on them if he really wanted to and most of the problems are actually easier to solve than they appear."

Now that's a decent answer. This I can almost believe. Kind of a Sherlock Holmes memory attic.

Indeed :) (And I know that they happen in real life - my memory works along those lines).

I don't like him having a Photo memory. That's a little to..... Unusual for an ordinary human to have.

I won't disagree there. Although he has a lot of ... unusual skills.

I can't remember if it was Marvel or DC, but one of the books had a comment about monitoring Superhumans. They had a list of all the people they were monitoring from the most powerful heroes, to that old lady that one the lotto 7 times. Things like that are DANGEROUSLY close to being considered "meta".

But there are also quite a number of things that happen in the real world that come close to being seen as meta. I see Batman as being at least as good at "mental sleight of hand" as Zantanna Zatara is at physical sleight of hand.

Batman works best as a HUMAN.

I won't disagree.

There are certain things that are prerequisets to other skills. For example, In order for me to do really well at... Calculus, I have to be great at early Algebra.

But for most of those prerequisites, the prerequisite is also useful for a lot of other skills.

Now what kind of sciences does he have to be great at to even have a minor familiarity with Teleportation devices? Space ships? I'm getting bored with the sentient Robot example ;)

The ability to plug prefabricated part A into slot B and a reasonable familiarity. And the ability to RTFM (and speed-read it). Plus a good imagination to work out the uses for a teleporter.

C'mon.... Toymaker?!? How long has he been helping out?

Not sure offhand. But I think he still is - so that objection doesn't hold. Especially as if he still is, other than for a brief slot there's been at least someone cannonically certainly since 1993. (And very possibly before that).

Harold wasn't around for very long either. All I remember him doing was building the Subway car, but I imagine he did some other stuff too. But he wasn't around for very long.

About ten years - 1993 - 2002/3. He let people into the Batcave when Azrael was pretending to be Batman, helped with Batman's computers, and built Batmobiles for certain.

I don't recall him doing much with Kord either, though I do know he stopped in BoP for a while.

Kord Industries, not Ted Kord himself. At some point in the Jason Todd return arc, it was revealed that Kord Industries was a subsidiary of Wayne Enterprises which had been doing R&D - and in particular R&D into the personal gadgets Batman uses. However, it was snaffled by someone (I'm not sure who offhand, but think it was Jason) out from Wayne Enterprises, resulting in Batman saying that from now on the only gadgets he could use would be those he invented himself.

I like to see him as the leadership of Superman with the skills of Batman. He's ALSO a world class detective.

Not quite all the skills of Batman (he's not paranoid enough) and I'd say quite a bit better as a leader than Superman.

Yeah but he cheats. They always show him as more of a telepath than a detective. If I can read your mind, I don't need to look for evidence.

And as I've been pointing out, Batman cheats a lot on many of his skills. And has distinct advantages at others (like martial arts, where size and strength really do matter).

[phantom1592]

I had a much more detailed response, but it got deleted:mad:

This is a quicker version.

Are your saying that Batman shouldn't be able to put back together an android like Red Tornado because he lacks the intelligence? Cause if thats the case you'd be wrong. The fact of the matter is that Batman is indeed a brilliant scientist and is experienced with studying alien tech having come across it MANY times before also having studied his teammates as shown in Tower of Babel why is it a surprise that he could rebuild Red Tornado?

That is exactly what I'm saying. Red Tornado isn't toaster, or even a Batmobile. He is literally a new Life form. TO morrow and Doc Magus have had debates over who is a greater inventor because they create life.

If batman can recreate the tornado, then he's wasting his time as a superhero. He should be creating Tornados to police his city. He can cover a dozen blocks at atime instead of just one alley at a time. (more like KC batman)


Just because he's capable of feats like that doesn't mean he's the best in that area. He's acknowledges various people to be better in different areas several times.

Lame answer. So when he miraclouslly starts talking about Astrophysics, he responds with "Oh i'm not the best. Theres..... Ummmm.... Bob. He's better than I am.

Your taking too literal term of "Best" He shouldn't be in the top 100 of any field that most people devote their whole lives to and can't break the laws of Physics.



No offense but I'm not surprised you haven't since you seem like you haven't read everything surrounding Bruce's training to become Batman. To answer your question, this is revealed in Shadow of the Bat #0 which covers some of Batman's training but not all of it. BTW, its just one interpertation of Batman's training compared to other writers but accurate none the less.

Now your just being Mean. You dismiss all my years of knowledge on the subject and rebute it with a Zero issue from the 90's!

Let me ask this, If he has always had PM then why did he need the computer to pick out MOs? He couldn't just look at the clues and 'remember' who the clues would point to? That's not the way he was written. Why doesn he need Oracle?

It's a matter of record that Barbara had PM. That's one of the things that made her special. It let her become oracle. It wasn't a standard feature of the "bat-family" Dick must have felt pretty left out if he couldn't remember the name of the witness in Two-faces 2nd crime.....


Again, I'm trying to understand what your point of view here but are you saying he shouldn't be able to do things like this because you don't want him to or are you saying he shouldn't be able to do it because he's never shown he ability to?

It seems like your upset by the fact that Batman is capable of all these amazing things but don't want to accept the fact that he's capable of them because he was so well trained and learns so quickly from studying. That's how well his mind works it always has. With experience, Batman has only gotten much better as time went on.


He shouldn't be able to do these things because they are out of character. They aren't what Batman was about. On a team with Martians and clay goddesses, HE was the one you could connect with.

Batman was what anyone could be if they wanted to enough. Now you've turned him into a human brain with Photo Memory. The moment he starts talking shop with Atom about astrophysics then I loose my connection.



What things that can't be learned? Explain.

Internal parts of Elemental Androids, Stardrives, teleportation Satellite Survelliance. Pretty much not taught at Princeton, or harvard or wherever. He would have had to learn them FROM the people who built them. Do you see this Batman having the humilty needed to learn? To admit to Ray palmer that he DOESN"T know everything?


According to you Batman should be only a master detective, good strategist, and a great fighter and thats it but what you don't want to accept is real evidence of Batman doing far more impressive things which comes across as unfair bias.

I admit they have evidence of him doing these far out things. I also know that in the 60+ years he's been around a LOT of stuff doesn't count anymore. In this land of retcons it's not unfair to pick and choose what you think is IN character and what is NOT.


Not true at all. Being the best doesn't mean your unbeatable or aren't challenged it simply means you stand above the rest. That's like someone saying that a world champ doesn't have to fight to defend their title when they fought and trained hard to win it in the first place.

Are you saying that if some punk in an alley got a lucky shot in than you wouldn't call foul?


Its not like we haven't seen Batman or Wolverine beaten or on the losing end of a fight before either. But we have seen them make great come backs in fights by using their best weapons. In Batman's case, it would be his wits more often then not as shown in his recent brawl with the Martian Manhunter poser in Superman/Batman #28 which is a great example.

I'll have to check that #28, but as for them being on the loosing end.... I think Wolverine has become a joke. I heard he just got blasted down to the skeleton and STILL came back for the win :eek: YEah that's the level that I want Batman to reach. :rolleyes:

[kane]

I cant believe people accept a amazon princess made of clay, a guy who runs at the speed of light, a man with a ring that runs on willpower, a martian and another alien from a planet called krypton, but cant accept a guy who is good at various fields. This comparing comics to reality has to stop.


Well, the princess, the martian and the kryptonian are not human, the fast guy is connected to the speed force, the ring is an alien device, so it is okay.

But Batman is supposed to be human with no super powers. Thats the problem.

[Francis]

That is exactly what I'm saying. Red Tornado isn't toaster, or even a Batmobile. He is literally a new Life form. TO morrow and Doc Magus have had debates over who is a greater inventor because they create life.

But that's the point. Batman hasn't created a new life form. All he's done is rebuilt the shell the lifeform was housed in. The life form itself is the elemental inside Red Tornado. And AFAIK, Batman neither created nor replaced that (and if he did it will have been by getting another elemental for it). Saying that he's created life because he rebuilt the Tornado is like saying that someone who redesigns Fuji's (from Stormwatch) containment suit is building life. Or someone who rebuilds an exoskeleton is creating life.

Are you saying that if some punk in an alley got a lucky shot in than you wouldn't call foul?

Hey, it happened to Buffy. To put things simply, I'd want to know why the punk got the lucky shot in.

[literally exaggerated]

But Batman is supposed to be human with no super powers. Thats the problem.

So is Lex Luthor, and John Henry Irons, and Tony Stark, and T'challa, and while Reed Richards and Victor Von Doom each have powers, in neither case are they connected to their intellect. In comics, "normal humans" can have essentially unlimited intellect.

[Eliseu Gouveia]

He shouldn't be in the top 100 of any field that most people devote their whole lives to and can't break the laws of Physics.


Exactly my point!
He shouldn´t be in the top 100 of anything.

You know how many THOUSANDS of absolutelly briliant scientists there are around the world, spread across all fields of knowledge from chemistry to engineering, mechanics, quantum physics?
I don´t mean only the dozens that Ivy League spits out every year, I mean everywhere around the world, from the 14 years old genious in Thailand working on the next ciber-virus to the underpaid russian engineer looking up for a gig in North Korea for their next-gen missile.

People say "Ohh, but he´s not THE best, he´s a jack-of-all-trades but a master on none, he´s not the absolute best, he´s only #2 or #5 in those areas of experstise".... BULLSHIT!

Stephen Hawkings,Marie Curie or Albert Einstein were probably some of the most briliant minds in recent history and they only mastered one, maybe two areas of knowledge to which they devoted their whole lives.

There are THOUSANDS of briliant scientists around the world pushing themselves to the limit every day to be the BEST.
And along comes Batman that surpasses them all to be the #2 to #5 in all of these fields?

You could get away with it if you said Batman is a meta.
But no, the whole argument is that Batman is still only a man.
A briliant man but still a man.

Only someone who never experienced the level of competition for the first spot you find at a university could advocate that a man like that is believable.

Where was Batman in his youth, while thousands of young briliant chemistry students all around the world where glued to their books day and night, studying hard to be the best of their class (and thus get the best jobs)?
Climbing the hymalaias to go learn some tai-chis from a M.A. expert.

Where was Batman while thousands of young exceptional athletes all around the world where facing rigorous training and giving their absolute best to enter the olympics?
Hooking up with gangsters in a Hong Kong alley to get a feel for the criminal mind.

Where was Batman while thousands of young briliant electronic students all around the world where glued to their books day and night, studying hard to be the best of their class?
In harlem training to be the best boxeur in the world.

Where is Batman right now, while thousands of young brillliant medical students all around the world are glued to their books day and night, studying hard to be the best forensic experts in their class?
Attending celebrity events, hooking up with Paris Hilton and posing for paparazzi to maintain his playboy aura.

[Francis]

Exactly my point!
He shouldn´t be in the top 100 of anything.

You know how many THOUSANDS of absolutelly briliant scientists there are around the world, spread across all fields of knowledge from chemistry to engineering, mechanics, quantum physics?
I don´t mean only the dozens that Ivy League spits out every year, I mean everywhere around the world, from the 14 years old genious in Thailand working on the next ciber-virus to the underpaid russian engineer looking up for a gig in North Korea for their next-gen missile.

People say "Ohh, but he´s not THE best, he´s a jack-of-all-trades but a master on none, he´s not the absolute best, he´s only #2 or #5 in those areas of experstise".... BULLSHIT!

But I really don't think he is #2 to #5 at anything except martial arts. And even the #2 to #5 league only takes into account the superheroes and supervillains rather than the specialists slaving away in a research laboratory or competing in tournaments.

As an inventor, he's invented some useful gadgets. But compared to The Atom, Starman, Captain Cold, Prometheus, Steel, Mr. Teriffic, and many others in the DCU, he's a rank amateur (and never mind the non-featured inventors). All he's really invented that I can think of are useful little (and occasionally not so little) gadgets that are only of interest to a certain type of superhero - meaning that there isn't much competition. When he needs something beyond the ordinary (like Mr. Teriffic's T-Spheres), he steals it wholesale and sometimes sticks a bat on it. Yes, he's resourceful and backed up by resources, but that's about it.

As a scientist, I can't think of an area where he's actually pushed back the boundaries of knowledge. Which puts him behind every single PhD scientist in the world. And certainly behind an awful lot of the scientific capes. What he has is a good grounding across the sciences (certainly not unknown), meticulous attention to detail, and is often the first on the scene. Oh, and resources to back him up.

With computers he's way behind Oracle. And she had her systems pwned recently by a non-cape. For that matter, Oracle is only pretty good with them - what she primarily is is an information broker and researcher (she was a professional librarian before becoming Oracle). She's also a pretty good hacker - but she cheats as she has access to Thangarian and Martian tech, making her systems much more advanced than those posessed by almost anyone else on the planet. Meaning she's A-list (or very high on the B-list) but certainly not the world's best hacker.

As a detective, who can tell? He's good, certainly. But I'm not aware of how there can be a ranking system. So claiming to be the world's greatest detective doesn't mean much. And he has three advantages over the rest - resources, being first on the scene, and the fact that any other human detective would be wearing concrete overshoes by now. In short, he's good and uses hype to help him (the same way the bat mask does).

Only someone who never experienced the level of competition for the first spot you find at a university could advocate that a man like that is believable.

Or someone who has - and sees that Batman actually isn't all that's claimed of him but that there are some very good generalists out there.

[literally exaggerated]

As an inventor, he's invented some useful gadgets. But compared to The Atom, Starman, Captain Cold, Prometheus, Steel, Mr. Teriffic, and many others in the DCU, he's a rank amateur (and never mind the non-featured inventors). All he's really invented that I can think of are useful little (and occasionally not so little) gadgets that are only of interest to a certain type of superhero - meaning that there isn't much competition. When he needs something beyond the ordinary (like Mr. Teriffic's T-Spheres), he steals it wholesale and sometimes sticks a bat on it. Yes, he's resourceful and backed up by resources, but that's about it.

Batman has reverse engineered mother boxes, modified new gods tech, designed and built robotic clones of the JLA, repaired artificial intelligences, constructed satellites capable of watching every meta on the planet, built virtual reality bullets, etc. There might be a few better inventors out there, but Batman is by no means a rank amateur.

With computers he's way behind Oracle. And she had her systems pwned recently by a non-cape. For that matter, Oracle is only pretty good with them - what she primarily is is an information broker and researcher (she was a professional librarian before becoming Oracle). She's also a pretty good hacker - but she cheats as she has access to Thangarian and Martian tech, making her systems much more advanced than those posessed by almost anyone else on the planet. Meaning she's A-list (or very high on the B-list) but certainly not the world's best hacker.

Batman actually designed a virus which disabled all of Oracle's systems, so I don't think he's way behind her. Somewhat behind her, sure, but not way behind. And she's outhacked Calculator, who was considered good enough with systems like that to be the chief info broker for the Society.

As a detective, who can tell? He's good, certainly. But I'm not aware of how there can be a ranking system. So claiming to be the world's greatest detective doesn't mean much. And he has three advantages over the rest - resources, being first on the scene, and the fact that any other human detective would be wearing concrete overshoes by now. In short, he's good and uses hype to help him (the same way the bat mask does).

DC editorial policy for the last 30 years or so has been that Batman is the world's greatest detective. As such, thats fact in the DCU, because every writer writing canonical stories operates under the editorial directive that Batman is the best in that area.

[kane]

So is Lex Luthor, and John Henry Irons, and Tony Stark, and T'challa, and while Reed Richards and Victor Von Doom each have powers, in neither case are they connected to their intellect. In comics, "normal humans" can have essentially unlimited intellect.

Are they experts in all scientifics fields and detectives and superb martial artists and drivers and sword fighters and pilots etc. at once? I don´t think so.

[Francis]

Batman has reverse engineered mother boxes,

When? That one, I will accept, is silly.

modified new gods tech,

From everything I have seen of New Gods tech, it was designed to be easily modifiable to user specifications.

designed and built robotic clones of the JLA,

And Lex has been producing robotic Superman clones for decades. All Batman needs is one of them, and by changing the shell and personality module he's got Superman, The Flash, Wonder Woman, and pretty much The Martian Manhunter covered in terms of powers. And the rest (with the possible exception of Plastic Man) are easier. In short he can do it by pirating old tech. Again.

repaired artificial intelligences,

You mean reset them to design specs? Or more? Repair is much easier than development.

constructed satellites capable of watching every meta on the planet,

Which is just a matter of brute force. And as I've said before, the main problem with building satellites is that they need to be made small so you can put them in orbit. Not a problem for Batman. And the other problem is building enough of them. Again, not a problem for a billionaire industrialist.

built virtual reality bullets, etc.

Source? And again, if they had limited lifespan, that could have been done with either Watchtower or captured villain tech fairly easily. All he really had to do was get the idea of putting the small VR tech into the bullet.

Batman actually designed a virus which disabled all of Oracle's systems, so I don't think he's way behind her. Somewhat behind her, sure, but not way behind.

As I'm pretty sure that for a long time they either had or could work out each other's Root passwords, that's not as impressive as it sounds. And Oracle's been known to hack Batman...

And she's outhacked Calculator, who was considered good enough with systems like that to be the chief info broker for the Society.

Information broker <> Hacker. Calculator, like Oracle, is an information broker who can hack pretty d*mn well. And is another better inventor than Batman.

DC editorial policy for the last 30 years or so has been that Batman is the world's greatest detective. As such, thats fact in the DCU, because every writer writing canonical stories operates under the editorial directive that Batman is the best in that area.

DC editorial policy for the last 30 years has been to call Batman the world's greatest detective. And then occasionally have him not solve things that the readers or other characters could solve.

[Agent0]

That is exactly what I'm saying. Red Tornado isn't toaster, or even a Batmobile. He is literally a new Life form. TO morrow and Doc Magus have had debates over who is a greater inventor because they create life.

If batman can recreate the tornado, then he's wasting his time as a superhero. He should be creating Tornados to police his city. He can cover a dozen blocks at atime instead of just one alley at a time. (more like KC batman)

You have read Superman: King of the World?

Given the fact that Superman went rogue and his robots nearly conquerored the world with the JLA having to step in I'm not surprised Batman isn't willing to go this route as you suggest. Using Kingdom Come as an example is a bad one given the fact that in time its more likely that Tim Drake or Terry (from Batman Beyond) will take over as Batman which has been hinted at several times the most notable example being in Teen Titans.

Batman having studied his teammates even enemies such as Amazo shouldn't come as a surprise that he'd be able to repair Red Tornado.

Lame answer. So when he miraclouslly starts talking about Astrophysics, he responds with "Oh i'm not the best. Theres..... Ummmm.... Bob. He's better than I am.

Your taking too literal term of "Best" He shouldn't be in the top 100 of any field that most people devote their whole lives to and can't break the laws of Physics.

No, when Batman is confronted with a problem that he's intelligent enough to solve he does it because he's enough smart to do. This shouldn't suggest that he's never asked others for help in certain areas or won't acknowledge that someone like The Atom is a better scientist then he is which he's made clear before.

Tell me again why shouldn't Batman be in the top 100 of any field? This time don't tell why YOU think he shouldn't be but rather tell why he truly isn't. In otherwords, show me actual evidence of Batman NOT displaying vast knowledge in certain areas as you think he shouldn't. I guarantee you now that you'll have a very hard time proving he shouldn't be.

Now your just being Mean. You dismiss all my years of knowledge on the subject and rebute it with a Zero issue from the 90's!

Yes because everyone knows we shouldn't use zero issues. I guess I should ignore everything that has to do with continuity just for you benefit right? That includes the recent JLA #0. Bad excuse.

As far as I can tell, your knowledge of Batman's training isn't indepth at all because it were you'd know he's been capable of many things for long time now. What I'm showing you is actually evidence that proves that Batman is capable of these feats that you want to protest that he shouldn't be able to achieve. If you really had a good indepth knowledge of Batman training we wouldn't be debating this because you'd know what that he'd be capable of all these things.

Let me ask this, If he has always had PM then why did he need the computer to pick out MOs? He couldn't just look at the clues and 'remember' who the clues would point to? That's not the way he was written. Why doesn he need Oracle?

So you're saying because he used a computer to scan for evidence that this proves without a doubt that he doesn't have total recall? Not a good example since we all know Batman is a man of great caution and uses his computers often to confirm things and for research. Why does he have them for if he isn't going to use them? Having Oracle around only enabled him to get things done faster. Way before she came along he was still the best detective in the world and many more things.

Have you ever read Batgirl #34 where he picks out a murderer out of a pile of men just by looking at a hair strand? I wonder where the computers were?

It's a matter of record that Barbara had PM. That's one of the things that made her special. It let her become oracle. It wasn't a standard feature of the "bat-family" Dick must have felt pretty left out if he couldn't remember the name of the witness in Two-faces 2nd crime.....

Well hate to break the bad news to you but Oracle isn't the one who has it and using Dick as an example is lame on your part knowing he's not the one we're talking about here. Nice try.

He shouldn't be able to do these things because they are out of character. They aren't what Batman was about. On a team with Martians and clay goddesses, HE was the one you could connect with.

Again, I'm asking you to show me evidence of WHY he shouldn't be able. Stop giving me your opinion of Batman and start showing me evidence.

Batman was what anyone could be if they wanted to enough. Now you've turned him into a human brain with Photo Memory. The moment he starts talking shop with Atom about astrophysics then I loose my connection

Please don't read Joe Kelly's JLA then for your own sanity. Kelly goes out of his way to show them relating to each other in science several times.

Internal parts of Elemental Androids, Stardrives, teleportation Satellite Survelliance. Pretty much not taught at Princeton, or harvard or wherever. He would have had to learn them FROM the people who built them. Do you see this Batman having the humilty needed to learn? To admit to Ray palmer that he DOESN"T know everything?

Yes because he has thats the point you keep missing. He has admitted that he doesn't know everything and he isn't better then others in certain areas why is this hard to understand? Batman is a man who studies people and has learned greatly from experience. Your making it sound like Batman shouldn't be capable of learning new things.

I admit they have evidence of him doing these far out things. I also know that in the 60+ years he's been around a LOT of stuff doesn't count anymore. In this land of retcons it's not unfair to pick and choose what you think is IN character and what is NOT.

If they have evidence of him doing these things then basically your just throwing out your opinion of what Batman should be instead of what he is. Just because you don't like something doesn't make it fair to discount it for your own benefit.

Are you saying that if some punk in an alley got a lucky shot in than you wouldn't call foul?

Given the fact that its the business that Batman's in to fight crime how could anyone call that a foul? Its not like some punk hasn't gotten lucky on Batman before anyway. In Year One alone we saw him get shot several times and still fend off criminals even corrupt cops. Taking gunshots isn't anything new to Batman at all.

On the other hand, Bane breaking Batman's back after wearing him down greatly could be considered a foul since he didn't defeat Batman fair and square. However, I can't really blame Bane for using such a strategy since it was smart but even then he wasn't able to keep Bruce down as he came back stronger then ever and hasn't lost to Bane since then.

I'll have to check that #28, but as for them being on the loosing end.... I think Wolverine has become a joke. I heard he just got blasted down to the skeleton and STILL came back for the win YEah that's the level that I want Batman to reach.

Trying to compare Logan's physical abilities to Batman's is a very flawed agruement since Logan is a mutant having done things that Batman can't and never has done because :eek: he truly isn't able to! Who would've thought that I wonder....:rolleyes:

[SensorBoy]

Thing I never found realistic is that Robin, before he was orphaned, managed to fight crime until 0400, train, AND avoid sleep-debt dementia.

Also, the Bat Gang tends to bounce back, with Wolverine-like speed, from some rather gnarly injuries. Drake gets worked over with a wrench by Generic Thug #271846, and is back on the rooftops 48hrs later.

Bruce is even worse. He's had internal injuries and concussions enough that he should have started slowing down a long time ago. A given person only has so many trips to the Trauma Center in them, after a certain point their physical capabilities begin approaching zero. Hell, after a few years in the Infantry, with no major injuries, I've started slowing down. Too many nights out in the cold and wet, or too many miles rucked with +40kg attached to me.

[King Krypton]

One of the things that bugs me about Batman being a master of all trades is how some of the crazier Bat-fans keep asserting he could demolish all his fellow heroes by virtue of his skills, and always stacking the deck in his favor by giving him "prep time" to kill or incapacitate guys like Superman or Orion or whoever else they want to make a Bat-punching bag. I've even seen some Batman fans claim once that Batman could destroy God, Jesus, and the Spectre with some "prep time." Putting that kind of lunacy aside, the whole notion of "prep time" always involves Batman having it, but not his supposed opposition. So either his victims are standing around like morons just waiting to be annihilated or Batman's plotting behind their backs. Doesn't this make Batman out to be a bully, or worse? Couldn't all his vaunted skills and use of "prep time" be used to better life in Gotham instead of picking one-sided fights with people who are supposed to be his friends?

This kind of attitude eats at me. Batman's supposed to be the ordinary man as superhero. To be this super-genius who can do no wrong and can even destroy God is just asinine. And yet there are some fans who fervently swear by this idea. I have no problems with Batman being exceptionally gifted, but for the lunatic fringe fans to assert he can kill or embarrass everything from alien demigods to full-blown deities just by spending a few days planning ahead is totally ridiculous. Not only does this make Batman out to be a petty jerk, but doesn't it also lose sight of his humanity?

[literally exaggerated]

I have no problems with Batman being exceptionally gifted, but for the lunatic fringe fans to assert he can kill or embarrass everything from alien demigods to full-blown deities just by spending a few days planning ahead is totally ridiculous. Not only does this make Batman out to be a petty jerk, but doesn't it also lose sight of his humanity?

But thats what makes Batman so great. He's the villain who works for good. The elitist, manipulative, conniving zealot in a black cape, cowl and armor with vast resources and penchant for cooking up elaborate schemes involving traps, heavy use of fear and psychological warfare and the exploitation of his enemies' weaknesses. But the thing is, those enemies are villains, and he does it, not for power, but to protect the innocent.

Prep time is based upon the notion (which has tons of evidence, especially from JLA) that Batman DOES spent lots of time plotting against his enemies (and developing contingencies to take down other powerful people should they go rogue) when not actively fighting them. Much moreso than someone like Superman or Spiderman does. They go home to normal lives, Batman goes home to a gothic castle where he trains obsessively and builds gadgets and devises plans.

[Eliseu Gouveia]

It´s funny how we have supervillains, BRILLIANT masterminds who devote their whole lfie to erradicating ONE superhero and fail miserably time after time.

Along comes Batman who´s clearly smarter than all the brilliant genius supervilains in the DCU (combined!), to the point of managing to cook up plans to erradicate ALL the superheroes in one go.

And despite all the brain power he devoted to erradicating ALL the superheroes in the DCU, he doesn´t have one!! (double exclamation point) single masterplan to erradicate all the suprvillains in the DCU (who are clearly not as smart as him).

With friends like this who needs enemies?

[trickster]

It´s funny how we have supervillains, BRILLIANT masterminds who devote their whole lfie to erradicating ONE superhero and fail miserably time after time.

Along comes Batman who´s clearly smarter than all the brilliant genius supervilains in the DCU (combined!), to the point of managing to cook up plans to erradicate ALL the superheroes in one go.

And despite all the brain power he devoted to erradicating ALL the superheroes in the DCU, he doesn´t have one!! (double exclamation point) single masterplan to erradicate all the suprvillains in the DCU (who are clearly not as smart as him).

With friends like this who needs enemies?

It's not funny at all. Some of them can only be stopped by killing them, which he won't do, the courts are completely retarded in the DCU - in other words, Goddamnit man, do you want to put DC Comics out of business - do you realize we could round up the villains in one issue and then what would be publishing? We'd have to publish all the SH titles under a new mature imprint because all the heroes and heroines would have left to do would be to screw each other senseless. :D

[Francis]

It´s funny how we have supervillains, BRILLIANT masterminds who devote their whole lfie to erradicating ONE superhero and fail miserably time after time.

Along comes Batman who´s clearly smarter than all the brilliant genius supervilains in the DCU (combined!), to the point of managing to cook up plans to erradicate ALL the superheroes in one go.

And despite all the brain power he devoted to erradicating ALL the superheroes in the DCU, he doesn´t have one!! (double exclamation point) single masterplan to erradicate all the suprvillains in the DCU (who are clearly not as smart as him).

With friends like this who needs enemies?

*sigh*

It's much easier for Batman to erradicate the JLA than [insert random group of villains here] for five reasons.

The first is that he knows them far better, and therefore has a much better idea of their strengths and weaknesses.

The second is that the heroes don't tend to move around as much. You can normally find the JLA in the clocktower (or know they will return there). You know the Titans are going to go back to Titans Tower. And not only that, Batman has access to those places. With rare exceptions (like Lex Luthor or Black Adam), the first problem is going to be finding the Villains. And I've yet to see a mind controller who's smart enough not to reveal he's taken someone over for about a year...

The third is that (DC/Marvel) heroes take obvious bait. Villains don't. Jump out of a window, and the hero will save you. The villain will just laugh as you go splat. Paint "Trap for Superman" on the side of a cave and he will probably fly into it (or Batman would go in his place). Even catman would say "Do you think I'm stupid?" (The Authority would just flatten the cave on spec).

The fourth is that (pretty much with the single exception of the Birds of Prey) the Villains are on the offensive, the Heroes are on the defensive. The Heroes are always responding to plans and used to it - while if the Villains don't like the situation, they get on a plain to timbuktu (or Zandia).

The fifth is that (until recently) the heroes were better organised. Meaning that you had a structure which would deal with a lot of heroes - and very little that would deal with villains. And Batman was fairly deep into that structure. As for the villains of Gotham, attack Joker and Penguin and Two-face are probably just going to cheer.

So in short, it's much easier to take down the heroes than the villains. And it's easier for Batman than for a villain to take down the JLA, Outsiders, Titans, and/or JSA.

[literally exaggerated]

Batman does have contingencies to take down villains. Taking down villains isn't the problem. I mean, how many times have you seen batman make a serious, concerted effort to bring down a villain and still fail?

The problem is keeping them down, and thats impossible for anyone because PIS protects guys like the Joker from ever being imprisoned.

[Eliseu Gouveia]

It doesn´t MATTER.

He´s the Giddam BATMAN.

Supervillains are retarded, they devote their whole livest to dsstroying ONE superhero and fail time and again.

Batman can cook up five plans to erradicate ALL superheroes before breakfast -> meaning he´s smarter than ALL DCU supervillains combined.

And again, he´s the Goddam Batman, the one who could kill GOD with enough preptime.

[literally exaggerated]

He's the smartest man in the world, what else do you expect? He nearly singlehandedly defends an entire city filled with pseudometa freaks and insane criminal masterminds while simultaneously saving the world from planetbuster type threats every other weekend.

I don't see whats so wrong with this. Lex Luthor was designing wormhole generators and antigravity devices when he was a little kid, and at this point is not only a master of nearly every form of science and technology, but also business, law, politics, and has displayed a knack for hand to hand combat that would indicate extensive training.

Batman is smarter than Lex Luthor by a good bit, and has always been presented as such in that nearly any time they come into conflict Batman outwits him.

Bruce is the smartest guy on the planet, why shouldn't he be a prep god? or is that only okay when villains and Marvel characters do it?

[Eliseu Gouveia]

Ah, but thatt´s the whole point, isn´t it?

that´s ALL Lex Luthor ever did.

He wasdn´t out there to be the BEST at EVERYTHING, from a marathon runner to a chemical engineer to a forensics expert to a cuisine chef!

[Xero Kaiser]

I have no problems with Batman being exceptionally gifted, but for the lunatic fringe fans to assert he can kill or embarrass everything from alien demigods to full-blown deities just by spending a few days planning ahead is totally ridiculous. Not only does this make Batman out to be a petty jerk, but doesn't it also lose sight of his humanity?


Whenever I hear fans/writers/whoever talk about how Batman is "just a normal man who gets by on his wits" or some crap like that, I feel like pulling them through the internet so I can laugh in their face.

Batman's about as "normal" as Reed Richards and Dr. Doom. I don't have a problem with that in and of itself. My problem comes from DC and writers wanting me to believe that Batman's anything approaching normal or human. That he's the one superhero with no superpowers. Maybe it's just me but I don't think "so smart you can do anything" is all that different from "so strong you can do anything".

When you try to convince me how relatively human Batman is and then have him beat Superman's ass in a fistfight and outsmart everything in the galaxy....it doesn't work.

[Alan2099]

Ah, but thatt´s the whole point, isn´t it?

that´s ALL Lex Luthor ever did.

He wasdn´t out there to be the BEST at EVERYTHING, from a marathon runner to a chemical engineer to a forensics expert to a cuisine chef!
Again, Doom, Reed, and Lexd have nothing else really diving their attention.

Doom is Doom. 24 hours a day (except when he uses time travel to sneak in a few extra hours), he doesn't do anything except be Doom. he can constantly work on plans, schemes, he's got a labratory full of scientists and robots he's developed to continue working when he's not there. He can take months to plan ahead. He's got Doombots that think exactly like he does that he can send out to do the work for him. testing things and learing new stuff is all he realy ever does.

Luthor is very similar.

Reed is just a scientist very a VERY understanding familit.

None of those people have as much on their plate as Batman.

[literally exaggerated]

But Doom's feats are also vastly and proportionately more impressive than Batman's. Batman's best tech feats are things like building robots and supersatellites and boom tube gloves. Doom's been cooking up stuff like time machines since day one and has standard tech which makes him a teambuster against people like the FF. His tech is VASTLY greater than Batman's.

Not only that, but he's also a master magician, the second best in the world after only Doctor Strange himself. He's just as good at tech as Reed is, but ALSO has time to master sorcery.

Not only that, but he's also a master politican, manipulator, leader, doctor, and even fighter. He once one-punched a Lion to death.

Doom is ridiculously better than batman at science, a master of magic which bruce has never even tried to learn, plus has a whole host of other skills which he's mastered to ridiculous levels.

Batman is, in raw intellect, nearly on Doom's level. But he divides his time up waaay more, so he's not nearly as good at science, knows no magic whatsoever, and probably isn't as good a planner or manipulator either. He's a better fighter though, and has a lot more random skills plus a secret identity. It balances out.

If Victor Von Doom decided to do what Batman does, and spent his entire life mastering not just a few areas, but trying to master everything, he would probably be about the same level of proficiency Bruce is. Maybe even better. And no one would have a problem with it, because he's Doom.

But if Bruce Wayne, the smartest person in the DCU, does the same thing, suddenly its totally unbelievable.

[Xero Kaiser]

If Victor Von Doom decided to do what Batman does, and spent his entire life mastering not just a few areas, but trying to master everything, he would probably be about the same level of proficiency Bruce is. Maybe even better. And no one would have a problem with it, because he's Doom.

But if Bruce Wayne, the smartest person in the DCU, does the same thing, suddenly its totally unbelievable.

I say it comes down to presentation. Nobody ever tries to present Dr. Doom as a normal human, so nobody expects him to stay within somewhat human boundaries.

[literally exaggerated]

But he IS a normal human. Doom has no powers apart from those he's taught himself. He's exactly like the Bruce of his world, only evil.

[Alan2099]

Again, when comparing Batman to Doom, Dr. Doom spends a long time coming up with his plans. He doesn't go out every night patrolling or work with super teams every other weekened.

Also, he's never claimed to be human. He is Doom! and weaknesses are for lesser men!

Also, there's the fact that Batman is supposd to be so uber, but he has a hard time with people like Scarecrow and Riddler.

[literally exaggerated]

Again, when comparing Batman to Doom, Dr. Doom spends a long time coming up with his plans. He doesn't go out every night patrolling or work with super teams every other weekened.


But if he did, his tremendous intellect would almost certainly translate into as wide and impressive a skillset as Bruce has acquired. I mean, you seriously think that if Doom devoted his entire life from his youth onward to doing what Batman does he couldn't? or that he wouldn't be as good at everything as Bruce is?

Also, he's never claimed to be human. He is Doom! and weaknesses are for lesser men!

And Bruce is the Goddamn Batman.

Also, there's the fact that Batman is supposd to be so uber, but he has a hard time with people like Scarecrow and Riddler.

Considering he always outsmarts them and kicks their asses...no he doesn't. Just because they're part of his rogue's gallery doesn't mean they're huge threats to him, anymore than Daredevil has a hard time with Leap-frog and Stilt-man

[Alan2099]

Didn'y you just say in another thread that the Goddamn Batman is satire and not to be taken seriously?

As for his rogue's gallery, just because he's able to beat them doesn't mean they don't proove a challange. Batman, for all his supposed smarts and resources routinely has a hard time with these people.

Now they are his baddies, they're supposedly a match for him. Now when created correctly, villians are supposed to have an advantage over the heroes in one form or another, otherwise there's no point in them even appearing.

other than a recent New Stiltman with enhanced armor (that was still beat in less than half an issue), I can't recall the last time that Stiltman or leap Frog prooved to be a threat.

Unlike Riddler, Scarecrow, or countless other villians of Batman's. Now, if the proove to be no threat, there's no real point in having them appear anymore. Comics are full of villians that have slipped away because their enemy was far too powerful for them to fight.

On the other hand, if they ARE stilla threat, that means Batman is at a far lower level than many people want to claim he is.

On that note, I also have to ask which you'd rather read about, a Batman that's so far beyond his rogues gallery that they're apperances are pointless, or a Batman that is still even matched if not outclassed in multiple areas against the people he faces.

If you choose the first one, who do you want Batman to face?

[SensorBoy]

But Doom's feats are also vastly and proportionately more impressive than Batman's.


Doom got pwned by Squirrel Girl:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/e/e8/DrDoomSquirrels.gif

The Prosecution rests.

[Alan2099]

Doom got pwned by Squirrel Girl:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/e/e8/DrDoomSquirrels.gif

The Prosecution rests.
So has Thanos, Modok, Mandarin, and quite a few other A-list villians. that speaks more for Squirrel girl than it does against them.

[literally exaggerated]

Didn'y you just say in another thread that the Goddamn Batman is satire and not to be taken seriously?

Exactly. "He's Doom, and therefore its justified" is just as ridiculous as "He's the Goddamn Batman and therefore its justified". Either neither of them work, or both of them do, because they're both ostensibly normal humans in world's with similarly high levels of fantasy.

As for his rogue's gallery, just because he's able to beat them doesn't mean they don't proove a challange. Batman, for all his supposed smarts and resources routinely has a hard time with these people.

He has a hard time solving the Riddler's riddles sometimes, because the Riddler is the best in the world at riddles, and when ambushed by the scarecrow he can be taken down, but neither of them have ever outsmarted him in the long run.

Now they are his baddies, they're supposedly a match for him. Now when created correctly, villians are supposed to have an advantage over the heroes in one form or another, otherwise there's no point in them even appearing.

They do have an advantage. There's a ton of them, many of them are superior to Bruce in their specific areas of expertise, a few of them are world-class threats who are singlehandedly close to his match, and they're all willing to kill people and do other heinous things which Bruce does not. But no, on their own guys like Riddler or Scarecrow are not in any way Batman's equal, nor have they ever been intended as such.

Unlike Riddler, Scarecrow, or countless other villians of Batman's. Now, if the proove to be no threat, there's no real point in having them appear anymore. Comics are full of villians that have slipped away because their enemy was far too powerful for them to fight.

On the other hand, if they ARE stilla threat, that means Batman is at a far lower level than many people want to claim he is.

Not really. When protecting Gotham, batman is a reactive entity. That is, his enemis put plans into motion, and he foils them. With the JLA, he's a proactive entity, he['s the one putting plans into motion to take the enemies down. When he's not proactively planning ahead of time, he's nearly always overmatched by JLA class threats.

On that note, I also have to ask which you'd rather read about, a Batman that's so far beyond his rogues gallery that they're apperances are pointless, or a Batman that is still even matched if not outclassed in multiple areas against the people he faces.

If you choose the first one, who do you want Batman to face?

I want a Batman who'se smart enough to react to and foil the plot of a ton of myriad low level villains and also smart enough to come up with more advanced, resource heavy plans to take down more powerful foes when necessary. Which, last time I checked, was pretty much what we have.

[Eliseu Gouveia]

Doom is Doom 24/7.

He´s a briliant scientist and a sorcerer.

He´s only good at two, maybe three fields and he´s not The Best There Is in any of them fields.
He´s not the greatest athlete in the world who has mastered Every! Martial! Art! in the world, who is the world´s greatest detective and in the top #2 to #5 in Every! field! of knowledge! known to man.

Also, Doom is helped by science and sorcery. For all we know, he could have spells up the yin-yang to make him stay awake 24 hours a day developping advanced tech.

Batman, on the other hand is only a man.
No drugs in his system, no spells, no cybernetic implants, just a guy who manages to fight the good fight til 6 a.m., then wake at 9:00am to go attend meetings at his company til 2:00 pm, then, work from 2 to 6 pm in developping the next-gen superhero-buster (not supervilain buster, mind you, because supervilains are not a threat to the world), then a nightclub party from 6 to 12 pm, then back to the good fight.

VERY believable!

[CjP]

It's not fair to compare Doom and Bats. Doom has that pesky 'magic' thing going on, and like it or not, it changes *everything*.

Because of magic, Doom was able to face down (and live to talk about it) the likes of Mephisto and the Beyonder. And don't even start about 'Batman stood down Darkseid', that wasn't a fight, it was blackmail. Put a fully suited-up Doom against Darkseid and you've got a good fight. Put a fully suited-up Batman against Darkseid and you better not blink.

[Xero Kaiser]

But he IS a normal human. Doom has no powers apart from those he's taught himself. He's exactly like the Bruce of his world, only evil.

He's as "human" as Krillin or Cloud

[literally exaggerated]

And Batman's not?? Hasn't this entire thread been about how inhumanly good he is?

Its such an odd double standard, its like, "well, of course its fine if Doom does all that crazy stuff, I mean, he's Doom. But of course Batman shouldn't be able to do that stuff, coz I mean, he's Batman."

[Alan2099]

As I've mentioned before, villians are always supposed to get the edge in power.

Despite what some people may say, Batman is NOT a "villian that works for the good side." Batman may be underhanded at times but Doom is outright nasty. He's got absolutley no problem "enhancing" his allies whether their own powers will burn out and kill them in hours. He'll outright kill loved ones to further his goals and he thinks nothing of exterminating people that gets in his way.

Even looking at the first time they suit up, Doom clearly had the edge. Batman put on spandex. Doom put on red hot armor and a mask that completley disfigured him and didn't even flinch.

Batman was raised by a loving family in a mansion.
Doom was a gyspy with no mother and no real home.

While Batman was sittign around watching cartoons with his mother and father in the other room, Doom was already starting to better himself.

When Batman was getting started on his training, Doom was already created limited matter transmuters and freeze bombs.

[literally exaggerated]

As I've mentioned before, villians are always supposed to get the edge in power.

Says who? Superman is vastly more powerful than most of his villains, as is Flash. The whole "villains need to outmatch the heroes" thing is more of a Marvel convention than it is a DC one.


Even looking at the first time they suit up, Doom clearly had the edge. Batman put on spandex. Doom put on red hot armor and a mask that completley disfigured him and didn't even flinch.

Batman was raised by a loving family in a mansion.
Doom was a gyspy with no mother and no real home.

While Batman was sittign around watching cartoons with his mother and father in the other room, Doom was already starting to better himself.

When Batman was getting started on his training, Doom was already created limited matter transmuters and freeze bombs.

which is why Doom's on another level than Bruce, and is always presented as such. Doom's a threat to low level cosmics, a teambuster and a world beater. Batman is NONE of those things. That doesn't mean that he's somehow just an ordinary human though.

Batman is VASTLY far beyond what any normal human could achieve, and Doom is VASTLY above what Batman could achieve.

Its like comparing anime superhumans. Batman is like Kenshin or something. Incredibly dangerous and by any real world standard CLEARLY superhuman, but still well within the bounds of mid-level street leveller and excellent prep god, but Doom is more like Krillin, that is someone to whom normal humans pose no more threat than do gnats.

[Alan2099]

Says who? Superman is vastly more powerful than most of his villains, as is Flash. The whole "villains need to outmatch the heroes" thing is more of a Marvel convention than it is a DC one.
Which honestly I see as a major failing of DC's. Superman and Batman have so few characters that are a realistic threat to them. There's no threat when 99% of their villians show up and that makes for losey drama.

It especialy doesn't work for Batman who'se actually trying to make thing better. He's got little to no real opposition and a lot more resources and skills than the people he goes up against, so why can't he make any headway?

[literally exaggerated]

but thats not true. Just because Batman always wins his fights with his enemies doesn't mean they can never threaten him or used in interesting stories. Take the recent issue of Detective Comics for instance. The villain is a common disguise artist, when they catch him the fight is over near instantly, and none of his goons pose any threat whatsoever to Batman or Robin. Its about as low-level a threat as it gets, and the story is *awesome*. Just a really good mystery story with nice character moments.

Not all drama is a lone hero against impossible odds and some cackling ultrapowerful megalomaniac with resources and powers far beyond those of the hero. Sometimes it just takes a good story that keeps you guessing and makes you care about the characters.

[Eliseu Gouveia]

Again, you can´t compare Batman to Doom.

For one, Doom is not the #2 to #5 at EVERYTHING like Batman.

Doom is a briliant scientist and a sorcerer.
That´s it.
He´s not even a brilliant ruler, otherwise Latveria would be a world power like Wakanda or the US by now.

He hasn´t mastered 354 different martial arts.
He´s not the #2 best dart throwing athlete in the world.
He´s not the #2 fastest marathon runner.
He´s not the #2 person to solve Fermat´s Theorem.
He´s not the #3 strongest weight lifter.
He´s not the #2 best olympic decatlon athlete.
he´s not the #2 best korean cuisine chef.
He´s not the #2 best bioengineering expert.
He´s not the #3 best horseback rider in the world.
He´s not the #3 best soccer, basketball, hockey and polo player in the world.
He´s not the #2 best forensic expert int he world.
He´s not the #2 best chemical expert in the world.
(.....)
He ´s not the #2 best Fandango dancer in the world.

He is a scientist and he is a sorcerer.
Meaning (for all those who were not paying attention!) that he he could have upped his stats to meta levels through MAGIC.

[Xero Kaiser]

And Batman's not?? Hasn't this entire thread been about how inhumanly good he is?

Its such an odd double standard, its like, "well, of course its fine if Doom does all that crazy stuff, I mean, he's Doom. But of course Batman shouldn't be able to do that stuff, coz I mean, he's Batman."

Exactly.

You wonder why people give Batman a hard time about being the best at everything he looks at but not other characters. Most other human characters who do crazy things aren't presented as being just human. Again, that's the thing with Batman. He's supposed to be the "normal" superhero. Someone who got by as a great detective and a good fighter. Somehow that extended to being smarter than everyone in the galaxy, being the best at everything and owning Superman in a hand to hand fight.

Guys like Dr. Doom were never meant and never presented as being anything approaching normal...Batman was. So him doing things on the extreme high end is more jarring

[Agent0]

You wonder why people give Batman a hard time about being the best at everything he looks at but not other characters. Most other human characters who do crazy things aren't presented as being just human.

Like who? Most other human characters don't have the training that Batman does. Since when is Batman the best at everything?

Again, that's the thing with Batman. He's supposed to be the "normal" superhero. Someone who got by as a great detective and a good fighter. Somehow that extended to being smarter than everyone in the galaxy, being the best at everything and owning Superman in a hand to hand fight.

Smarter then everyone in the galaxy? Normal? Are you serious?!

Again, why are people assuming that Batman is only a detective and martial artist? Have you read his entire origin story of HOW he became Batman?

Also, in what comic has Batman EVER fought Superman hand to hand? I've love to see that and how Batman survived without some aid of some sort. Cause last time they fought when Superman ambushed him, he ended up seriously injuried and if not for Wonder Woman rescuing him he would've been killed.

Guys like Dr. Doom were never meant and never presented as being anything approaching normal...Batman was. So him doing things on the extreme high end is more jarring

Since when?

I have a hard time believing how a man who's mastered over a hundered styles, became the world's greatest detective, great physical specimen, brilliant scientist, master strategist/tactican, expert escape artist, expert tracker, marksmen, and continues to improve through studying is normal by any means. Batman has NEVER been a normal human being instead DC's verison on Batman is that he's "peak human perfection" its what makes him so damn good and fun to read about cause he is a human being that's able to do what others would deem the impossible.

I think the mistake that people are making is that they're trying to compare an average real life person to a human fictional character which won't work. In comics, their are things that human characters can achieve that a real life people can't. Their's no way that anyone could be Batman in real life as they would end up dead or arrested. What Bruce achieved in 10 years to become Batman would take more then a lifetime for any normal human to accomplish.

[Alan2099]

I have a hard time believing how a man who's mastered over a hundered styles, became the world's greatest detective, great physical specimen, brilliant scientist, master strategist/tactican, expert escape artist, expert tracker, marksmen, and continues to improve through studying is normal by any means. Batman has NEVER been a normal human being instead DC's verison on Batman is that he's "peak human perfection" its what makes him so damn good and fun to read about cause he is a human being that's able to do what others would deem the impossible.
yes time and time again, they refer to batman in the comics as being "just an oridanary man" or "just a driven man" or something to that affect. Calling him normal and then saying he's the best at everything only makes things worse.

He's either one or the other, and given the choice, I'd rather he be what he started out as, a realy smart guy with gimics. What does it really add to the character making Batman the master of 592 different fields?

[Agent0]

yes time and time again, they refer to batman in the comics as being "just an oridanary man" or "just a driven man" or something to that affect.

Actually most people in the DCU don't see him as just a normal human but rather an extraordinary human being. To quote the Amazon Princess herself who immediately corrects Artemis thinking Batman is just a normal human:

"He is many things Artemis. Just a man isn't one of them."

Another from Hal Jordan:

"No power rings. No alien hertiage. No abilites bestowed upon him by the divine. Yet I thought then... and I think now... that he was truly the most POWERFUL of us all."

From Starman (Will Payton):

"He's the best there is at what he does."

"That is the toughest man I've ever met."

Trust me their are MANY more that I haven't mentioned.

You'd think that after a while with so many people saying such things about him that he indeed ISN'T normal. How can a man who dresses up in a bat costume that mostly only comes out at night and has developed so many skills be normal? Explain.

Calling him normal and then saying he's the best at everything only makes things worse.

Again, where are people getting this best at everything statement from? I've never heard this anywhere stated in the comics. Either stop saying that or PROVE that the comics states such things but don't assume things just to suit your agruement.

He's either one or the other, and given the choice, I'd rather he be what he started out as, a realy smart guy with gimics. What does it really add to the character making Batman the master of 592 different fields?

I don't know go ask Denny O'Neil who wrote him that way who btw is regarded by MANY as one if not THE definitive Batman writer of all time. If you really believe that Batman has NEVER shown anything past being a detective and moderately good fighter then you really should read more pre-crisis stories.

[Absalom]

Originally posted by Eliseu Gouveia

He´s not even a brilliant ruler, otherwise Latveria would be a world power like Wakanda or the US by now.
Actually, Latveria WAS a world superpower, on the same level as Wakanda, when Doom was alive and in charge (pre-Unthinkable).

[Eliseu Gouveia]

Bruce achieved in 10 years to become Batman would take more then a lifetime for any normal human to accomplish.

That´s the problem right there.

A brilliant student has to work hard his entire life to become the #2 best forensics expert in the world.

Batman managed it in 10 years?
Sure, okay, he´s not a briliant student, he was an extraordinarily briliant student..

But get this, being the #2 best forensics expert in the world is not the only thing he acchieved.

He also became the #2 to #5 best forensics expert in the world AND the #2 to #5 best martial artist in the world.
AND #2 to #5 best chemical expert in the world.
AND the #2 to #5 best athlete int he world.
AND the #2 to #5 best poison expert in the world.
AND.
AND.
AND.
(Ad nauseum.)

Each one of these fields would require any other BRILIANT genius a lifetime of hard work to be the #2 to #5 best at in the whole world.

Not only did Batman acchieve this in 10 years of hard work but get this, he acchieved this level of expertise in ALL of them!


Where did he find the time to study chemical engineering to the point of becoming #2 to #5 when he was learning 796 different martial arts?

Whoever came up with that silly notion clearly doesn´t have the faintest clue of how hard it is to graduate from chemical engineering, let alone become the #2 to #5 BEST chemical engineer in the world - while at the same time endulging in hundreds (thousands?) of other pursuits - .

[Agent0]

That´s the problem right there.

A brilliant student has to work hard his entire life to become the #2 best forensics expert in the world.

Batman managed it in 10 years?
Sure, okay, he´s not a briliant student, he was an extraordinarily briliant student..

But get this, being the #2 best forensics expert in the world is not the only thing he acchieved.

He also became the #2 to #5 best forensics expert in the world AND the #2 to #5 best martial artist in the world.
AND #2 to #5 best chemical expert in the world.
AND the #2 to #5 best athlete int he world.
AND the #2 to #5 best poison expert in the world.
AND.
AND.
AND.
(Ad nauseum.)

Each one of these fields would require any other BRILIANT genius a lifetime of hard work to be the #2 to #5 best at in the whole world.

Not only did Batman acchieve this in 10 years of hard work but get this, he acchieved this level of expertise in ALL of them!


Where did he find the time to study chemical engineering to the point of becoming #2 to #5 when he was learning 796 different martial arts?

Whoever came up with that silly notion clearly doesn´t have the faintest clue of how hard it is to graduate from chemical engineering, let alone become the #2 to #5 BEST chemical engineer in the world - while at the same time endulging in hundreds (thousands?) of other pursuits - .

Several reasons which I have explained many times already in this thread but will make it brief:

1. It was revealed in the origin stories that he sometimes divided his time between his studies and his physical training. For example, during the day he'd take mental courses needed to prepare himself while at night he'd physically train. Other times, he'd devote him soley to one teacher.

2. Having developed total recall and speed reading enabled him to breeze through things very quickly compared to others college being the most notable.

3. He only got what he need from his teachers and moved on to the next teacher he never stayed in one spot for too long. Being that he has an genius level intellect it wasn't hard for him to master things which many of his teachers took note of having been the favorite of many of them

4. His determination drove him to be the best that he could be having focused all his time on his training and nothing else

Most importantly:

5. He's a fictional character of course he can achieve these things. Trying to compare a real life human being to even a comic book human being isn't going to work. Within the DCU alone we see the laws of science are different and magic actually exists. Do you really have that hard of time believing in Batman's abilities?

[curefreak]

you guys need to understand that batman has to be good at everything otherwise he wouldnt be able to hold his own with people like superman around and if you try to make batman more realistic like the punisher he wouldnt be much use to the justice league.
this is why you will never see the punisher joining the avengers.
i also get tired of people trying to put real world logic into comic books its insanely annoying,
yes theyre should be some realism
but if you make them too realistic then youre throwing at everything that makes comic books good and superman would have developed a way to counter act the effects of kryptonite by know.

[phantom1592]

you guys need to understand that batman has to be good at everything otherwise he wouldnt be able to hold his own with people like superman around and if you try to make batman more realistic like the punisher he wouldnt be much use to the justice league.
this is why you will never see the punisher joining the avengers.
i also get tired of people trying to put real world logic into comic books its insanely annoying,



Why does he have to be at that level to be of use to the JLA? I don't understand your point. The JLA have had powerless people before that even a "realistic" batman would outshine. He doesn't HAVE to be equal to Superman. He has skills that Superman can't comprehend being a poor farmboy.

Punisher will never be on the Avengers because he's a KILLER. He's wanted by the police and he doesn't meet their moral standards. And he's just generally Anti-Social. It's not because he's too weak. Punisher could still walk Moon knight and Mockingbird. They're just people with skills but are still card carrying members.

[curefreak]

Why does he have to be at that level to be of use to the JLA? I don't understand your point. The JLA have had powerless people before that even a "realistic" batman would outshine. He doesn't HAVE to be equal to Superman. He has skills that Superman can't comprehend being a poor farmboy.

Punisher will never be on the Avengers because he's a KILLER. He's wanted by the police and he doesn't meet their moral standards. And he's just generally Anti-Social. It's not because he's too weak. Punisher could still walk Moon knight and Mockingbird. They're just people with skills but are still card carrying members.
cause batman being numero one or two in dc has to be the best thats just the way they made him.
i see batman a lot like i see captain america and that theyre problem solvers at there best when theres a large fight with extremely powerfull foes they dont get there hands dirty they step back and analyze the situation and come up with a solution.
ill admit (grudingly) that you have a point with punisher.
its harder for me to understand how people like mockingbird and moon knight are able to fight the same level of villians as someone like thor mostly cause theyre not as brilliant as batman.
but moon knight was only briefly a member of the avengers and mockingbird got killed none of wich applies to batman.
i think the thing that most people need to realize is theres two batmen
one that can hang with the justice league and fight world conquerers and the batman that fights street level villians like two face or black mask.
thats something that while is unrealistic youre just gonna have to accept because its comics people !

[Eliseu Gouveia]

No, it´s bad comics.
Big dif.

Even Comics need consistency, a man can´t be able to figure out mother-boxes in the afternoon and then have trouble finding Two-Face two hours later.

A man cannot possibly be the best there is at everything, surpassing thousands upon thousands upon thousands of other men as briliant as him who have devoted their whole lives exclusivelly to only ONE pursuit.

It´s COMMON SENSE, people!

You put five thousand geniuses in the same room studying chemistry.
4,999 of them study the whole day long, one studies 5 minutes.

Guess which will come out with the best grades?

[curefreak]

No, it´s bad comics.
Big dif.

Even Comics need consistency, a man can´t be able to figure out mother-boxes in the afternoon and then have trouble finding Two-Face two hours later.

A man cannot possibly be the best there is at everything, surpassing thousands upon thousands upon thousands of other men as briliant as him who have devoted their whole lives exclusivelly to only ONE pursuit.

It´s COMMON SENSE, people!

You put five thousand geniuses in the same room studying chemistry.
4,999 of them study the whole day long, one studies 5 minutes.

Guess which will come out with the best grades?i agree with the first part but i dont agree with the latter some people are able to understand things better than others and it could be said that batman/bruce wayne has a very gifted intellect.

[Eliseu Gouveia]

i agree with the first part but i dont agree with the latter some people are able to understand things better than others and it could be said that batman/bruce wayne has a very gifted intellect.


Okay, let me rephrase that.

You put five thousand geniuses in the same room studying chemistry.
4,999 of them study the whole day long, one studies 5 minutes.

You put five thousand geniuses in the same room studying engineering.
4,999 of them study the whole day long, the same guy studies 5 minutes.

You put five thousand olympic athletes in the same gym training for the marathon.
4,999 of them work out the whole day long, the same guy works out for 5 minutes.

You put five thousand olympic athletes in the same gym training boxing.
4,999 of them train the whole day long, the same guy trains for 5 minutes.

You put five thousand olympic athletes in the same gym training fencing.
4,999 of them train the whole day long, the same guy trains for 5 minutes.

You put five thousand olympic athletes in the same gym training soccer.
4,999 of them train the whole day long, the same guy trains for 5 minutes.

You put five thousand martial artists in the same gym learning tae-kwon-do.
4,999 of them train the whole day long, the same guy trains for 5 minutes.

You put five thousand martial artists in the same gym learning judo.
4,999 of them train the whole day long, the same guy trains for 5 minutes.

You put five thousand martial artists in the same gym learning kung-fu.
4,999 of them train the whole day long, the same guy trains for 5 minutes.

You put five thousand martial artists in the same gym learning mway-tai.
4,999 of them train the whole day long, the same guy trains for 5 minutes.

You put five thousand martial artists in the same gym learning capoeira.
4,999 of them train the whole day long, the same guy trains for 5 minutes.

Now you´re telling me the one guy who studied 5 minutes of chemistry, 5 minutes of engineering, trained for the marathon for 5 minutes, plus 5 minutes of boxing, 5 minutes of fencing, 5 minutes of soccer, 5 minutes of tae-kwon-do, 5 minutes of judo, 5 minutes of kung fu, 5 minutes of capoeira is gonna be the best there is at ALL of these disciplines, ahead of the 4,999 geniuses and athletes who studied and trained exclusively for each of them the Whole! Day! Long?

Sorry, but I really don´t think so.
Npt even in comics.

Because even if you defend that Batman is a comic character and human characters in comics are given more latitude than in real life, you´re all forgetting something.

Those 4,999 geniuses and olympic athletes and martial artists who spent the whole day training to be the very best?
They are comic characters too.

[curefreak]

Okay, let me rephrase that.

You put five thousand geniuses in the same room studying chemistry.
4,999 of them study the whole day long, one studies 5 minutes.

You put five thousand geniuses in the same room studying engineering.
4,999 of them study the whole day long, the same guy studies 5 minutes.

You put five thousand olympic athletes in the same gym training for the marathon.
4,999 of them work out the whole day long, the same guy works out for 5 minutes.

You put five thousand olympic athletes in the same gym training boxing.
4,999 of them train the whole day long, the same guy trains for 5 minutes.

You put five thousand olympic athletes in the same gym training fencing.
4,999 of them train the whole day long, the same guy trains for 5 minutes.

You put five thousand olympic athletes in the same gym training soccer.
4,999 of them train the whole day long, the same guy trains for 5 minutes.

You put five thousand martial artists in the same gym learning tae-kwon-do.
4,999 of them train the whole day long, the same guy trains for 5 minutes.

You put five thousand martial artists in the same gym learning judo.
4,999 of them train the whole day long, the same guy trains for 5 minutes.

You put five thousand martial artists in the same gym learning kung-fu.
4,999 of them train the whole day long, the same guy trains for 5 minutes.

You put five thousand martial artists in the same gym learning mway-tai.
4,999 of them train the whole day long, the same guy trains for 5 minutes.

You put five thousand martial artists in the same gym learning capoeira.
4,999 of them train the whole day long, the same guy trains for 5 minutes.

Now you´re telling me the one guy who studied 5 minutes of chemistry, 5 minutes of engineering, trained for the marathon for 5 minutes, plus 5 minutes of boxing, 5 minutes of fencing, 5 minutes of soccer, 5 minutes of tae-kwon-do, 5 minutes of judo, 5 minutes of kung fu, 5 minutes of capoeira is gonna be the best there is at ALL of these disciplines, ahead of the 4,999 geniuses and athletes who studied and trained exclusively for each of them the Whole! Day! Long?

Sorry, but I really don´t think so.
Npt even in comics.

Because even if you defend that Batman is a comic character and human characters in comics are given more latitude than in real life, you´re all forgetting something.

Those 4,999 geniuses and olympic athletes and martial artists who spent the whole day training to be the very best?
They are comic characters too.im sure theres lots of things that batman is not good at its just that these things dont relate to the world in wich he works. not to mention hes really bad at relationships.

[Eliseu Gouveia]

Even if you remove the forensics, chemistry and other scientific parts of his formation from his "curriculum", he´s still the #2 to #5 at every fighting technique on earth.
Just by studying each of those 347 techniques 5 minutes a day:

- He´s a better capoeira fighter than anyone who studied and practiced capoeira 24/7 his whole life.

- He´s a better sumo wrestler than anyone who studied and practiced sumo wrestling 24/7 his whole life.

- He´s a better kung fu fighter than anyone who studied and practiced kung fu 24/7 his whole life.

- He´s a better boxeur than anyone who studied and practiced boxing 24/7 his whole life.

He´s a better savate fighter than anyone who studied and practiced savate 24/7 his whole life.

He´s a better kendo fighter than anyone who studied and practiced kendo 24/7 his whole life.

He´s a better fencing fighter than anyone who studied and practiced fencing 24/7 his whole life.

He´s a better mway Tai fighter than anyone who studied and practiced mway tai 24/7 his whole life.

It just doesn´t add up.
The only person who came this close was Bruce Lee, pinnacle of all things martial arts who learned and mastered a handful of different techniques (which he grouped to form his own style).

And he didn´t learn 347 differnet styles and techniques, he learned only a handfull.
To which he dedicated his time, life and full attention.

He didn´t learn them by practicing each 5 minutes a day.

[curefreak]

Even if you remove the forensics, chemistry and other scientific parts of his formation from his "curriculum", he´s still the #2 to #5 at every fighting technique on earth.
Just by studying each of those 347 techniques 5 minutes a day:

- He´s a better capoeira fighter than anyone who studied and practiced capoeira 24/7 his whole life.

- He´s a better sumo wrestler than anyone who studied and practiced sumo wrestling 24/7 his whole life.

- He´s a better kung fu fighter than anyone who studied and practiced kung fu 24/7 his whole life.

- He´s a better boxeur than anyone who studied and practiced boxing 24/7 his whole life.

He´s a better savate fighter than anyone who studied and practiced savate 24/7 his whole life.

He´s a better kendo fighter than anyone who studied and practiced kendo 24/7 his whole life.

He´s a better fencing fighter than anyone who studied and practiced fencing 24/7 his whole life.

He´s a better mway Tai fighter than anyone who studied and practiced mway tai 24/7 his whole life.

It just doesn´t add up.
The only person who came this close was Bruce Lee, pinnacle of all things martial arts who learned and mastered a handful of different techniques (which he grouped to form his own style).

And he didn´t learn 347 differnet styles and techniques, he learned only a handfull.
To which he dedicated his time, life and full attention.

He didn´t learn them by practicing each 5 minutes a day.
i dont mean to be rude but youre starting to sound like a broken record havent you ever heard of suspension of disbelief?

[Eliseu Gouveia]

Suspension of disbelief can only go so far before it breaks.

I can believe that an alien can fly.
I can believe magic can turn a statue of clay into a living demigoddess.
I can believe that a man can be the greatest detective in the world if he puts his mind to it.

I have a hard time believing a man (not a meta but a man, a human like you and me) can be the best there is at Every! Fighting! Tehnique! on earth, PLUS the greatest detective on earth, PLUS #2 to #5 on every other category of human acchievement, from frencn cuisine to soccer playing to advanced cybernetic systems expert.

[curefreak]

Suspension of disbelief can only go so far before it breaks.

I can believe that an alien can fly.
I can believe magic can turn a statue of clay into a living demigoddess.
I can believe that a man can be the greatest detective in the world if he puts his mind to it.

I have a hard time believing a man (not a meta but a man, a human like you and me) can be the best there is at Every! Fighting! Tehnique! on earth, PLUS the greatest detective on earth, PLUS #2 to #5 on every other category of human acchievement, from frencn cuisine to soccer playing to advanced cybernetic systems expert.
well noones forcing you to understand the character and who says hes good at everything? he has stuff hes not good at but those things dont usually apply to crimefighting or being a superhero.

[Eliseu Gouveia]

No writer should EVER force the reader to understand anything, the explanation should be simple and straightforward, not as contrived as it is in this case.

A writer can say "he flies because he´s a sun-powered alien lifeform."
Sure.
I think we´re alone in the universe but I´ll suspend my disbelief regarding aliens long enough to buy it.

A writer can say "she walks and breathes because magic powers her. Divine magic."
Sure, I dont´believe in magic or greek gods but I´ll suspend my disbelief.


A writer saying that a man- not a meta but a man like you and me, only extremelly focused- can be the best fighter in all techniques on earth, PLUS the world´s greatest detective, forensics, chemical, cybernetic, (...) and poisons expert?

Sorry, I don´t buy that.
I know very well the limits of a man, even a focused one.
He can be the best in the world at one discipline., maybe even two or three.

No WAY he can stretch 10 years of training to become #2 to #5 in 576 differnet fighting techniques while attending chemical, forensics and cybernetic classes in his spare time.

Why?
Because while he´s focusing in 892 different things, there are thousands upon thousands upon thousands of men around the world - just as focused and just as hardworlking- who study day and night, giving their very BEST to be the best at only ONE discipline.

[curefreak]

No writer should EVER force the reader to understand anything, the explanation should be simple and straightforward, not as contrived as it is in this case.

A writer can say "he flies because he´s a sun-powered alien lifeform."
Sure.
I think we´re alone in the universe but I´ll suspend my disbelief regarding aliens long enough to buy it.

A writer can say "she walks and breathes because magic powers her. Divine magic."
Sure, I dont´believe in magic or greek gods but I´ll suspend my disbelief.


A writer saying that a man- not a meta but a man like you and me, only extremelly focused- can be the best fighter in all techniques on earth, PLUS the world´s greatest detective, forensics, chemical, cybernetic, (...) and poisons expert?

Sorry, I don´t buy that.
I know very well the limits of a man, even a focused one.
He can be the best in the world at one discipline., maybe even two or three.

No WAY he can stretch 10 years of training to become #2 to #5 in 576 differnet fighting techniques while attending chemical, forensics and cybernetic classes in his spare time.

Why?
Because while he´s focusing in 892 different things, there are thousands upon thousands upon thousands of men around the world - just as focused and just as hardworlking- who study day and night, giving their very BEST to be the best at only ONE discipline.
do you suffer from obessive compulsive disorder? cause if you dont buy it you dont have to read it.
personally ive never read or seen anything that is completly unbelieveable for me.

[Eliseu Gouveia]

oh, I haven´t bought nor read Batman in a long time, probably around the time he ascended to Godhood..
It still doens´t mean I can´t discuss the issue when it presents itself.

And speaking as someone who´s not a slouch in the brain department and who sweat his butt off trying to get an engineering degree I have a hard time believing someone could come and be the 2nd best engineer in the world just by glancing over a couple books for 5 minutes on his way to the gym where he´d practice other 5 minutes to become the best M.A. in the world in 325 different techniques.

Not if he is a human.

[curefreak]

oh, I haven´t bought nor read Batman in a long time, probably around the time he ascended to Godhood..
It still doens´t mean I can´t discuss the issue when it presents itself.

And speaking as someone who´s not a slouch in the brain department and who sweat his butt off trying to get an engineering degree I have a hard time believing someone could come and be the 2nd best engineer in the world just by glancing over a couple books for 5 minutes on his way to the gym where he´d practice other 5 minutes to become the best M.A. in the world in 325 different techniques.

Not if he is a human.
hes not the best marital artist in the dc universe and hes not the most gifted at cybernetics he is probably the best detective and one of the best strategists in dc and is also a genuis but hes not the best at everything.

[Eliseu Gouveia]

Sorry, bad wording.

"Second" best at everything. :rolleyes:

[curefreak]

Sorry, bad wording.

"Second" best at everything. :rolleyes:
i think youre just jealous....

[Alan2099]

I know I'm not jealous. I don't think I could ever been jealous of a horribly written character.

The whole thing falls under what I freind of mine referrs to as the Dragonball Z mentality. "This character is powerful, so this other character has to be MORE powerful, so this third character has to be even MORE powerful to keep up," etc etc.

Batman is a huge example of this. he doesn't have powers so to "power him up," where he isn't immesily over powered by DC's other icons, he's got to be made into an uber genious at everything.

When you take a human character that's always thrived on being human and turn them into an insanely powerful superhuman, it hurts the concept.

[Eliseu Gouveia]

I know I'm not jealous. I don't think I could ever been jealous of a horribly written character.

The whole thing falls under what I freind of mine referrs to as the Dragonball Z mentality. "This character is powerful, so this other character has to be MORE powerful, so this third character has to be even MORE powerful to keep up," etc etc.

Batman is a huge example of this. he doesn't have powers so to "power him up," where he isn't immesily over powered by DC's other icons, he's got to be made into an uber genious at everything.

When you take a human character that's always thrived on being human and turn them into an insanely powerful superhuman, it hurts the concept.

Exactly!

Are we so desperatelly in need of overcompensation that we have to bestow upon our heroes god-like abilities?

I love Daredevil to bits and yet 5/6 of the MU could destroy him effortlessly.
It doesn´t make him less of a hero, in fact it´s that vulnerability that gives him his coolness, the ability of surprise us time and again by beating the odds when we are sure he´s facing something beyong his abilities..

I used to like Wolverine back in the Clairmont/Byrne era, before he became a joke who can ressurrect from being incinerated into a charred skeleton..

What makes a hero is not his divine superpowers, look at Superman, the most boring creation in the history of entertainment, so beyong the realm of normal men only extremelly devoted readers can still empathise with him..

[literally exaggerated]

But Batman's not unbeatable. Not even close. He's nowhere near the level of, say, Reed Richards, or even really the Black Panther. So he's a swiss army knife of useful skills. So what? He regularly hangs with guys who have powers like xavier level telepathy AND shapeshifting AND phasing AND Class 100 strength AND Lightspeed-class superspeed, or who can move so fast they can start to read books on bridges and architecture at the moment a bridge starts falling and manage to not only master the subject, but also reassemble the entire bridge before it crumbles. Compared to most of those guys, even factoring in his massive skillset, and he's still pretty much always the underdog.

[curefreak]

But Batman's not unbeatable. Not even close. He's nowhere near the level of, say, Reed Richards, or even really the Black Panther. So he's a swiss army knife of useful skills. So what? He regularly hangs with guys who have powers like xavier level telepathy AND shapeshifting AND phasing AND Class 100 strength AND Lightspeed-class superspeed, or who can move so fast they can start to read books on bridges and architecture at the moment a bridge starts falling and manage to not only master the subject, but also reassemble the entire bridge before it crumbles. Compared to most of those guys, even factoring in his massive skillset, and he's still pretty much always the underdog.
thats why people have to understand the difference between the dc heroes and marvel heroes.

[CE_Rap]

I know I'm not jealous. I don't think I could ever been jealous of a horribly written character.

The whole thing falls under what I freind of mine referrs to as the Dragonball Z mentality. "This character is powerful, so this other character has to be MORE powerful, so this third character has to be even MORE powerful to keep up," etc etc.

Batman is a huge example of this. he doesn't have powers so to "power him up," where he isn't immesily over powered by DC's other icons, he's got to be made into an uber genious at everything.

When you take a human character that's always thrived on being human and turn them into an insanely powerful superhuman, it hurts the concept.

I actually have a friend big on anime who says pretty much the same thing (in regards to DBZ). I agree completely. I really don't find it believable for Batman to have mastered sooo many complex areas. If he's still a reasonably young man, than how the hell could he have mastered so many things?

Mr. Terrific probably spent his whole life studting engineering and technology, so he's a genius of it. It's true, making him second to Batman actually waters Batman down as a believable superhero. No amount of "suspension" is going to change that, I'm afraid.

[Eliseu Gouveia]

But Batman's not unbeatable. Not even close. He's nowhere near the level of, say, Reed Richards, or even really the Black Panther. So he's a swiss army knife of useful skills. So what? He regularly hangs with guys who have powers like xavier level telepathy AND shapeshifting AND phasing AND Class 100 strength AND Lightspeed-class superspeed, or who can move so fast they can start to read books on bridges and architecture at the moment a bridge starts falling and manage to not only master the subject, but also reassemble the entire bridge before it crumbles. Compared to most of those guys, even factoring in his massive skillset, and he's still pretty much always the underdog.

"My friend has a Ferrari, so it´s only natural that I have a Lamborghini!"

That´s the whole problem, you keep using the fact that he hangs with Gods to justify him being able to transcend his human limitations.


And with that philosofy, writers keep veering away from his main selling point: his humanity.

No human being is able to be the #2 to #5 at everything, no matter how hard he tries or how focused he is or how cool he is.
I don´t CARE if he hangs with Superman and Flash, that shouldn´t justify him being writen as a God just to keep up.

Batman shouldn´t need to "keep up" bacause putting him figuring out Mother Boxes only undermines the character´s believability.

Batman should hang iwith the JLA because he´s a briliant tactician.
He´s not a scientist, he´s not a cybernetic expert, guys with actual PhD´s are. Guys who went to the M.I.T. and moonlight at NASA are.
No man who read two electronic books for 5 minutes on his way to the gym for a shotokan class should have the know-how to even touch a 1960´s transistor radio, let alone reassemble an elemental android.

Superman is a farmboy.
Wonder Woman is a warrior.
And Batman is the tactical mind, operating from the shadows.

NOT in the frontline commanding the JLA to battle, he has no business being there.

[Alex L]

He´s a better mway Tai fighter than anyone who studied and practiced mway tai 24/7 his whole life.

It just doesn´t add up.
The only person who came this close was Bruce Lee, pinnacle of all things martial arts who learned and mastered a handful of different techniques (which he grouped to form his own style).

And he didn´t learn 347 differnet styles and techniques, he learned only a handfull.
To which he dedicated his time, life and full attention.

He didn´t learn them by practicing each 5 minutes a day.

Bruce Lee never finished learning the entire Wing Chun system.
He only dabbled in boxing and fencing.
Just a random aside.

Anyway, instead of 'why shouldn't Batman be in the top 25 in everything' the question should be, 'why should he be?'

There's really no reason why the plotline requires for him to be able to build his own personal teleportation device to the JLA watchtower.

Why he can easily beat the daylights out of people who have studied martial arts their entire lives, day in and day out.

Why the JLA flounders and cries out, "We need Batman here because he would know what to do."

What's wrong with a Batman who's a psychological genius, has a fairly decent handle on biology and chemistry, and is considered a master of 3 different martial arts?

How badly would it hurt Batman's character to know next to nothing about subatomic particles or spaceships, a Batman who can beat up your average thug or decently-trained-but-out-of-shape fighter but would lose to a purely dedicated martial artist?

[Eliseu Gouveia]

The ideal Batman IS the world´s greatest detective with a good background in forensic science, chemistry and a handful.of other areas.

He´s also an expert martial arts and an excelent tactician.

He´s not THE best fighter in the world, leave that to the likes of Lady Shiva and Richard Dragon who devoted their WHOLE lives to being that and only that.

Batman devoted his whole life to fighting crime and that doesn´t necessarily mean fistfights 24/7.
he can get away frrom tussles since he´s an expert in 3-4 styles which he mastered and combined into creating his own.
He also uses shadows and deceipt to his advantage.
Throw 5-10 goons at him and he´ll school them.
Throw 3-4 LoA M.A. experts at him and he´ll make it out... barely.
Throw one meta at him and he´ll barely make it out, after using his brain.


That´s it.

He can´t figure out Mother Boxes, that´s for Mister Miracle.
He can´t reassemble elemental androids, that´s for Mr. Terrific.
Poison Robin with one of Ivy´s toxins and all he can aspire is to figure out what it is and how to estabilise him until his company producea an antidote.

[curefreak]

The ideal Batman IS the world´s greatest detective with a good background in forensic science, chemistry and a handful.of other areas.

He´s also an expert martial arts and an excelent tactician.

He´s not THE best fighter in the world, leave that to the likes of Lady Shiva and Richard Dragon who devoted their WHOLE lives to being that and only that.

Batman devoted his whole life to fighting crime and that doesn´t necessarily mean fistfights 24/7.
he can get away frrom tussles since he´s an expert in 3-4 styles which he mastered and combined into creating his own.
He also uses shadows and deceipt to his advantage.
Throw 5-10 goons at him and he´ll school them.
Throw 3-4 LoA M.A. experts at him and he´ll make it out... barely.
Throw one meta at him and he´ll barely make it out, after using his brain.


That´s it.

He can´t figure out Mother Boxes, that´s for Mister Miracle.
He can´t reassemble elemental androids, that´s for Mr. Terrific.
Poison Robin with one of Ivy´s toxins and all he can aspire is to figure out what it is and how to estabilise him until his company producea an antidote.
if you payed attention to what i said earlier hes not the best fighter in the dc universe lady shiva and richard dragon and karate kid are.

[CE_Rap]

Bruce Lee never finished learning the entire Wing Chun system.
He only dabbled in boxing and fencing.
Just a random aside.

Anyway, instead of 'why shouldn't Batman be in the top 25 in everything' the question should be, 'why should he be?'

There's really no reason why the plotline requires for him to be able to build his own personal teleportation device to the JLA watchtower.

Why he can easily beat the daylights out of people who have studied martial arts their entire lives, day in and day out.

Why the JLA flounders and cries out, "We need Batman here because he would know what to do."

What's wrong with a Batman who's a psychological genius, has a fairly decent handle on biology and chemistry, and is considered a master of 3 different martial arts?

How badly would it hurt Batman's character to know next to nothing about subatomic particles or spaceships, a Batman who can beat up your average thug or decently-trained-but-out-of-shape fighter but would lose to a purely dedicated martial artist?

i hear you, and Batman should be versatile and knowledgeable. I just don't think he should be an expert or 100% as capable in something that is another character's specialty.

example: I don't see him being able to rebuild REd Tornado from scratch. i don't buy it. Now if, say, Mr. Terrific or even Cyborg was doing it, I'm sure Batman , if he was watching, is incredibly intelligent enough to know what he is seeing. He could even deduce why certain circuits go into certain areas, etc., etc. I'd believe that. But c'mon, by himself, your telling me he could recreate something as sophisticated as Red Tornado? You gotta see that's a stretch.

[Alex L]

if you payed attention to what i said earlier hes not the best fighter in the dc universe lady shiva and richard dragon and karate kid are.

You've listed two (I don't count Karate Kid because he was born ten centuries later, and also utilizes his flight ring to fight in 3D).

TWO!

In the entire world, plausibility leads me to believe there are at least a dozen out there who would eat him alive (I would say more than 50, but that might be a little too much).

[curefreak]

You've listed two (I don't count Karate Kid because he was born ten centuries later, and also utilizes his flight ring to fight in 3D).

TWO!

In the entire world, plausibility leads me to believe there are at least a dozen out there who would eat him alive (I would say more than 50, but that might be a little too much).
theres about five if i remember correctly but some people are just never satisfied.

[SensorBoy]

What would be more realistic would be Bats using his contacts in the JLA to make life hell for Gotham's freakos. Provides the edge he needs to realistically keep a lid on all the crap that goes on.

Kryptonian tech-enhanced Bat-whatevers.
Thanagarian weapons.
JLA Teleportation pads for jumping between the Cave and various safehouses in Gotham (beats driving in and roofing it across town to catch the Joker).
Amazonian medical tech to put Robin back on his feet after the Friday Nite beatdown from Psycho #45673/

[Sizzle]

He's not necessarily a expert on everything. He certainly has a high intellect. He also has all the information of the world at his fingertips. He has his own supercomputer which probably documents all his cases and gives him easier access to that information everytime he needs to reuse that informaiton. Aside from that, he also has access to most of the data networks on the planet thanks to Oracle.

So he may not be a expert on everything but he certainly can quick acquire any information he needs via electronic means.

[literally exaggerated]

In the entire world, plausibility leads me to believe there are at least a dozen out there who would eat him alive (I would say more than 50, but that might be a little too much).

Bruce is the smartest, most talented and most driven human being in the world. Why should he be limited to simply being above average? What does it add to his character to have there be, not just a small handful of people who can beat him in H2H, but a whole bunch?

[Alan2099]

What does it add to his character? Three thing.
1) Believability
2) Humility
3) Limits

[Francis]

Again, you can´t compare Batman to Doom.

For one, Doom is not the #2 to #5 at EVERYTHING like Batman.

And why do people think that Batman is #2 to #5 at everything?

Doom is a briliant scientist and a sorcerer.
That´s it.
He´s not even a brilliant ruler, otherwise Latveria would be a world power like Wakanda or the US by now.

1: It was.
2: Infrastructure started as all wrong. Doom is good there - but you need to reform the entire country top to bottom to make it a superpower. It runs on a quasi feudal system - which takes a lot more people than something democratic would.

He hasn´t mastered 354 different martial arts.

And after the first dozen or so, the rest just become variations.

He´s not the #2 best dart throwing athlete in the world.

You mean he's more accurate with darts than Merlin, Ollie Queen, and even Cissie King-Smith? News to me. (He's just pretty accurate).

He´s not the #2 fastest marathon runner.

Your source for Batman being that please? (It wouldn't surprise me if he could run a mile in under 2:30 - but that's another story).

He´s not the #2 person to solve Fermat´s Theorem.

Your source for Batman being that please?

He´s not the #3 strongest weight lifter.

Your source for Batman being that please?

He´s not the #2 best olympic decatlon athlete.

Your source for Batman being that please? (Although he would do extremely well at the decathlon).

he´s not the #2 best korean cuisine chef.

Are you just making fields up? Or can you actually find examples of Batman being a korean chef?

He´s not the #2 best bioengineering expert.

So Batman's in the same league as Poison Ivy at bioengineering and has made a clone of Superman? Or are you once again making things up?

He´s not the #3 best horseback rider in the world.

Who ever said he was?

He´s not the #3 best soccer, basketball, hockey and polo player in the world.

Will you stop with the strawmen?

He´s not the #2 best forensic expert int he world.

He actually might be here - depending on the meaning of the word "detective". Even if he isn't technically as good as the competition, he has so much more experience interpreting clues than forensic technicians anywhere, making him a more useful forensic expert than those who might be technically better than him.

He´s not the #2 best chemical expert in the world.

AFAIK, he's not even as good as Lex Luthor, Captain Cold, Poison Ivy, and others. So, no he isn't.

(.....)

Oh good. A load of non-existant strawmen.

He ´s not the #2 best Fandango dancer in the world.

Your entire post is a strawman about Batman. If a strawman is all you have to argue with, no wonder you object to Batman - but don't bother continuing on this thread please. If you can source every single one of those skills to Batman, I will freely apologise.

Batman is the World's #1 detective. What that actually means is that he is the world's best person at figuring things out. And therefore although he isn't as good at designing gadgets from scratch as e.g. Mr Terrific (or Lex or Ted Kord or ...) he is superb at reverse engineering them and working out how they work (and then being able to use them from there). He isn't as good or as well trained as Lady Shiva, but he is a superb and disciplined fighter, and can work out the necessary principles of any martial art he has some experience of, allowing him to use that style. He can figure out how to use New Gods tech because the phrase "User Friendly" is an understatement for anything we've seen from the New Gods. I could go on.

And Raikage, one of the reasons that there are so few martial artists in Batman's league is that Lady Shiva has been weeding them out for a while - when she hears of a really good up and coming martial artist, she challenges him (or occasionally her) to a duel. Usually to the death. As a test of her skills. And she wins. Therefore when a new martial artist gets to a level of fighting where they could challenge Batman, they are normally picked off by Lady Shiva. Or if they are a fighter, they cross one of the metahumans, who pounds them into a paste. This means that any fighter or martial artist can measure their life in weeks (or perhaps months) if they make a name for themselves and get up into Batman leagues. Therefore the competition isn't as strong as it would be in a non-lethal skill. (Yes, all the above is cannon - see Batgirl and Birds of Prey - although the implications are never spelled out).

[Eliseu Gouveia]

Francis-

I appreciate your kind invitation to vacate this thread but I´d rather not make myself scarce just yet, thank you very much.

First off, I´m not the one who came up with the definition that Batman is the #2 to #5 best at EVERYTHING!! (everything implying "everything" from korean cuisine to quantum physics).

I do find it absolutelly LUDICROUS your implication that by being the world´s greatest detective (i.e. being good at figuring out things) automatically makes him a genius in reverse engineering.

Newsflash, being a good detective means you´ve got a good formation on things like criminal behaviour, criminal psychology and forensics know-how.

Being a reverse engineer genius means AT LEAST a degree at engineering -and even guys straight out from MIT, who actually had a scientific formation in the field don´t automatically know how to reverse engineer your tivo- .
Being a reverse engineer genius means you are such a good cybernetics engineer with such a good formation that you not only understand how most cybernetic systems work but you can actually rebuid them from backwards.

Saying that Batman´s part-time "formation" studying criminals and criminal psychology is enough to allow him to rebuild elemental androids is akin to saying that Sherlock Holmes would be able to fix Ironman´s armour because he solved the case of the Hound of the Baskervilles.

Knowing the Yakuza history doesn´t make you the best at dimentioning advanced circuitry. Just ask Detective Cipowicz how good he is at fixing his tvset.

Being a reverse engineer genius means a deep understanding of advanced system that stems from an intense formation on the field for years and years, not something you can learn from studying a book for 5 minutes on the way to the gym.
And I am talking about reverse engineering TODAY´S tech.
Red Tornado is so far ahead from todaý´s tech as ironman´s armor is from Sherlock Holmes´days of steam engine.


As for the comments that Lady Shiva has been trimming down the top elite martial artists, that means she would have to be one pretty busy lady.
Have you ever actually been to a M.A. tournament?
It´s a sight to behold, every year, around the world, countless THOUSANDS new youngsters start their M.A. training.
If we slice that number down to the BEST of the best of the best, that still leaves us with dozens upon dozens of new contenders in Batman´s category every year from ages 18 to 60.
If Lady Shiva HAS been killing those dozens upon dozens of new Bruce Lees that appear every year, that would put her on the genocidal category of someone who has killed experts by the THOUSANDS.

I promise I wrote that last paragraph with a straight face.

[literally exaggerated]

no. see, comic book logic works so that there are the best, and then there are "the best". the former includes all those normal people in MA tournaments and dojos around the world, the latter is limited to superheroes and people who fights superheroes, guys who train in distant mysterious monastaries that practice zen death touches or who are put through intensive training by hidden government assassin cults from birth onward.

same thing with engineering. all those standard MIT guys, they're essentially limited to normal science and have normal limitations and they build things like slightly better computers are better cars. then there are the supergeniuses, and again, they are either superheroes, supervillains, or people who consistently interact with those type of people. they turn handheld calculators into sonic desintigrator rays and build AIs so advanced they develop their own personalities.

Batman is a supergenius. But not just any supergenius, he's pretty much the smartest supergenius. The most brilliant real-world professor at MIT or anywhere else isn't even a blip on the intellectual radar screens of most supergeniuses, and most supergeniuses can't hold a candle to Batman in intellect.

[Eliseu Gouveia]

And that´s what ruins Batman.
Sure, he should be a genious.
He should be an excelent athlete, an amazing martial artist and an extraordinary detective.

But clearly, to you that is not enough.

No, you don´t want a genius, you want a supergenius.
No, a supergenius is not enough either, let´s make him be the SMARTEST supergenius with a brainpower that equals, no, that surpasses the equivalent to Superman´s plot-device superpowers.

He should be able to anything (except build the perfect anti-supervilain system).

And when we´ve finally satisfied your thirst for a BatGod, maybe then you´ll eventually realise that the original character, the man behind it all has ceased to exist.

Because men - even extraordinary ones - have a characteristic that defines us:
Our limitations.

[Francis]

Francis-
First off, I´m not the one who came up with the definition that Batman is the #2 to #5 best at EVERYTHING!! (everything implying "everything" from korean cuisine to quantum physics).

No. You just took a silly claim and then blew it out of proportion.

I do find it absolutelly LUDICROUS your implication that by being the world´s greatest detective (i.e. being good at figuring out things) automatically makes him a genius in reverse engineering.

Invention and reverse engineering are much easier in the DCU than they are in the real world. Look at any of the gadgeteers for details.

Newsflash, being a good detective means you´ve got a good formation on things like criminal behaviour, criminal psychology and forensics know-how.

Or, to put it another way, being a good detective means that you know how criminals act and think, and how to read clues. And how to piece things together. What Batman has in spades is the last part (and is very good at putting himself into the heads of people, making the first two easy).

Being a reverse engineer genius means AT LEAST a degree at engineering

Which means less than you appear to think. (I'm not saying that it means nothing).

-and even guys straight out from MIT, who actually had a scientific formation in the field don´t automatically know how to reverse engineer your tivo- .

No. Batman is good at figuring things out.

Being a reverse engineer genius means you are such a good cybernetics engineer with such a good formation that you not only understand how most cybernetic systems work but you can actually rebuid them from backwards.

Rebuilding them backwards is a lot easier than inventing them forwards. Particularly if you want breadth rather than depth.

Saying that Batman´s part-time "formation" studying criminals and criminal psychology is enough to allow him to rebuild elemental androids

Is enough to allow him to rebuild the least complex part of the elemental android. Or do you have evidence he rebuilt the elemental?

is akin to saying that Sherlock Holmes would be able to fix Ironman´s armour because he solved the case of the Hound of the Baskervilles.

And once again, you are putting the cart before the horse. Batman is the world's greatest detective because he is the best at figuring things out. This also makes reverse engineering and fixing things much easier for him.

Knowing the Yakuza history doesn´t make you the best at dimentioning advanced circuitry. Just ask Detective Cipowicz how good he is at fixing his tvset.

Irrelevant.

Being a reverse engineer genius means a deep understanding of advanced system that stems from an intense formation on the field for years and years, not something you can learn from studying a book for 5 minutes on the way to the gym.

And Batman has always had a good understanding of technology. For one thing, he needs it for his forensics. But he is not in the league of the Blue Beetle as an inventor.

And I am talking about reverse engineering TODAY´S tech.
Red Tornado is so far ahead from todaý´s tech as ironman´s armor is from Sherlock Holmes´days of steam engine.

The Red Tornado is not just an android. He is an elemental who uses an android shell. That is why he is ahead of today's tech. And if you can find a source that indicated he rebuilt the elemental rather than just the shell, you will have a point. And AFAIK, the most recent (pre-Batman) incarnation of Red Tornado's shell was made by Firestorm - I fail to see why that makes him centuries ahead of current tech. Particularly when the version made by Firestorm was incredibly buggy - and Red Tornado eventually learned to deal with being in an extremely buggy android. Batman only needed to do a better job than that.

And the Tornado has been broken and repaired so many times (particularly in the 1970s and 1980s as the Tornado could be broken and rebuilt without too much trouble) that his parameters must be well known by now.

As I have said repeatedly on this thread, all Batman rebuilt was the shell - or do you genuinely have evidence that he created a new elemental to go into the Tornado?

All you have is evidence that Batman rebuilt the android part of something who has been rebuilt at least a dozen times before (the Tornado was a regular casualty when in the JLA because it could be rebuilt), and something that has learned to cope with being rebuilt fairly badly. And this is what you use to show that Batman is superhuman?

If Lady Shiva HAS been killing those dozens upon dozens of new Bruce Lees that appear every year, that would put her on the genocidal category of someone who has killed experts by the THOUSANDS.

Most of them are wannabes. Shiva only picks the best. And martial arts tournaments have rules - Shiva is interested in fighters. You're effectively confusing ability to go professional with ability to win an olympic medal (to pick the equivalents from random other sports).

[curefreak]

i think this whole red tornado thing must have just been an example of bad writing,
i cant ever remember reading or seeing him do anything that i thought was beyond his capabilities
i think that since he hangs around with the justice league he is around a lot of futuristic stuff and he just adapts i mean big barda is able to work on a mother box and she isnt even a genuis.

[literally exaggerated]

And that´s what ruins Batman.
Sure, he should be a genious.
He should be an excelent athlete, an amazing martial artist and an extraordinary detective.

But clearly, to you that is not enough.

No, you don´t want a genius, you want a supergenius.
No, a supergenius is not enough either, let´s make him be the SMARTEST supergenius with a brainpower that equals, no, that surpasses the equivalent to Superman´s plot-device superpowers.

Why not. You say supergenius like its a bad thing, like only characters other than Batman should deserve the label. The fact is, if he's one of the smartest men on the planet, and he exists in a world in which the smartest guys on a planet are capable of building pretty much any scifi tech they please, well then obviously he's going to be much, much smarter than any real world human could ever be.

Batman is supposed to be the pinnacle of human achievement. Not by real world standards, but by comic book ones, by the standards of the world he lives in. His intellect is to be judged, not against real world standards and geniuses, but against men so smart they can make death rays out of a blender. His fighting skills are weighed, not against realistic fighters like Fedor, but against people like Cassandra Cain who can dodge bullets after they've been fired and run at 100+ mph.

He should be able to anything (except build the perfect anti-supervilain system).

Not at all. But nor should he be limited to what humans can realistically achieve in our world. No one has argued he's omnipotent, so stop saying that simply because we believe his limitations to be higher than you do that we somehow believe he can do anything. If Batman starts building time machines (like Reed and Doom do) or karate chopping cliffs in half (like Karate Kid does) I'll be the first to cry foul. But as long as he's limited to T'challa level prep and tech abilities, roughly Cap-level physical capabilities, and is indisputably the world' best detective, I'm fine with that. It might not be realistic, but its certainly limited enough to allow for interesting and challenging storylines involving the character.

And when we´ve finally satisfied your thirst for a BatGod, maybe then you´ll eventually realise that the original character, the man behind it all has ceased to exist.

Because men - even extraordinary ones - have a characteristic that defines us:
Our limitations.

Funny, I've always thought Batman was defined by his ability to transcend his limitations.

[curefreak]

Why not. You say supergenius like its a bad thing, like only characters other than Batman should deserve the label. The fact is, if he's one of the smartest men on the planet, and he exists in a world in which the smartest guys on a planet are capable of building pretty much any scifi tech they please, well then obviously he's going to be much, much smarter than any real world human could ever be.

Batman is supposed to be the pinnacle of human achievement. Not by real world standards, but by comic book ones, by the standards of the world he lives in. His intellect is to be judged, not against real world standards and geniuses, but against men so smart they can make death rays out of a blender. His fighting skills are weighed, not against realistic fighters like Fedor, but against people like Cassandra Cain who can dodge bullets after they've been fired and run at 100+ mph.



Not at all. But nor should he be limited to what humans can realistically achieve in our world. No one has argued he's omnipotent, so stop saying that simply because we believe his limitations to be higher than you do that we somehow believe he can do anything. If Batman starts building time machines (like Reed and Doom do) or karate chopping cliffs in half (like Karate Kid does) I'll be the first to cry foul. But as long as he's limited to T'challa level prep and tech abilities, roughly Cap-level physical capabilities, and is indisputably the world' best detective, I'm fine with that. It might not be realistic, but its certainly limited enough to allow for interesting and challenging storylines involving the character.



Funny, I've always thought Batman was defined by his ability to transcend his limitations.



i dont think you can compare batman to the real world even tho hes supposed to be realistic thats only in comparison to someone like superman.

[literally exaggerated]

Exactly. Batman isn't really athletic, skilled and smart by our standards, he's really athletic, skilled and smart by the standards of a world in which being really athletic means deadlifting a thousand pounds or dodging bullets after they're fired, in which being really skilled means being able to kill someone with a touch, and in which being really smart means have an intuitive grasp of things related to science or logic which allows one to builds essentially anything if any area given sufficient intellect (Batman's not the only character with a massive skillset. He branches the farthest out, but multiple characters are essentially just "superscientists" with the ability to build damn near anything as long as its vaguely science related)

[curefreak]

Exactly. Batman isn't really athletic, skilled and smart by our standards, he's really athletic, skilled and smart by the standards of a world in which being really athletic means deadlifting a thousand pounds or dodging bullets after they're fired, in which being really skilled means being able to kill someone with a touch, and in which being really smart means have an intuitive grasp of things related to science or logic which allows one to builds essentially anything if any area given sufficient intellect (Batman's not the only character with a massive skillset. He branches the farthest out, but multiple characters are essentially just "superscientists" with the ability to build damn near anything as long as its vaguely science related)
i think if you make him too realistic hes not gonna be as popular i mean look at the question he doesnt even have his own book right now.

[Alan2099]

There are lots of characters that are really smart, skilled, or whatever without being half as ridcilous as Batman is.

Why does Batman have to be at the top of everything? What's wrong with him being a well rounded character?

Again, DBZ syndrome. Somebody else is good at something so Batman is supposed to be BETTER. If somebody is good at something they make Batman look not as good.

Now this is fine when the character has ONE speciality. They're good at ONE thing, but Batman is the top of everyfield that anyone else specialises in.

The Question was mentioned as not having his own book right now. Why should he when Batman can do everything he can do, fills pretty much the same niche, and surpasses him at every turn?

[curefreak]

There are lots of characters that are really smart, skilled, or whatever without being half as ridcilous as Batman is.

Why does Batman have to be at the top of everything? What's wrong with him being a well rounded character?

Again, DBZ syndrome. Somebody else is good at something so Batman is supposed to be BETTER. If somebody is good at something they make Batman look not as good.

Now this is fine when the character has ONE speciality. They're good at ONE thing, but Batman is the top of everyfield that anyone else specialises in.

The Question was mentioned as not having his own book right now. Why should he when Batman can do everything he can do, fills pretty much the same niche, and surpasses him at every turn?
the reason that he doesnt have his own book cause hes not a particularly interesting character by himself.

[Alan2099]

I thought he was made very ibntresting in the JLU.

[curefreak]

I thought he was made very ibntresting in the JLU.
i agree but he cant really hold his own like bats can.

[Alan2099]

Why do you think that is, out of curiosity?

[curefreak]

Why do you think that is, out of curiosity?
mainly cause hes a street fighter i dont think he even has any martial arts skills hes a great detective but thats about it.

[Alan2099]

So, again, you suport my arguement. The Question, a character that you said yourself was done well recently, is edged out because Batman is more skilled than he is.

[curefreak]

So, again, you suport my arguement. The Question, a character that you said yourself was done well recently, is edged out because Batman is more skilled than he is.
the question isnt really appropriate for a team dynamic he doesnt bring a whole lot to the table where as batman is a great tactician at the very least .

[literally exaggerated]

right. because Batman's prominence and skillset make him far more relevant to typical DCU continuity. You're outright stating that Batman's immense popularity and character dominance is tied into how absolutely amazing he is. Were he less uber, its likely he wouldn't be a popular.

[curefreak]

right. because Batman's prominence and skillset make him far more relevant to typical DCU continuity. You're outright stating that Batman's immense popularity and character dominance is tied into how absolutely amazing he is. Were he less uber, its likely he wouldn't be a popular.
exactly what i have been saying they keep complaining about how unrealistic batman is but the most realistic character in the dc universe that i know of the question doesnt even have his own book, lets face it dc universe doesnt exactly do realistic as well as marvel.

[Alan2099]

You're saying that Batman wouldn't be as popular if he wasn't as ridiculously overskilled?

Why is that? Why can't DC do realistic as well as Marvel?

[Francis]

mainly cause hes a street fighter i dont think he even has any martial arts skills hes a great detective but thats about it.
The Question was trained in martial arts by Lady Shiva and can go a few rounds with her before he loses. IIRC, he also has slight mystical powers.

[curefreak]

You're saying that Batman wouldn't be as popular if he wasn't as ridiculously overskilled?

Why is that? Why can't DC do realistic as well as Marvel?
well not everyone thinks hes "overskilled" but yes i dont think he would be and as to why dc doesnt do realistic as well as marvel? i cant honestly tell you.

[curefreak]

The Question was trained in martial arts by Lady Shiva and can go a few rounds with her before he loses. IIRC, he also has slight mystical powers.
what? when did this happen?

[literally exaggerated]

You're saying that Batman wouldn't be as popular if he wasn't as ridiculously overskilled?

Why is that? Why can't DC do realistic as well as Marvel?

Because DC operates on a different power scale. Most of the high-end heroes are so ridiculously powerful that the mid and low level heroes have been similarly amped because otherwise they become completely irrelevant.

[SensorBoy]

The Question was trained in martial arts by Lady Shiva and can go a few rounds with her before he loses. IIRC, he also has slight mystical powers.


I thought it was Richard Dragon KFM who trained him, after Shiva dished out a beating and referred him to Dragon.

[Alan2099]

Because DC operates on a different power scale. Most of the high-end heroes are so ridiculously powerful that the mid and low level heroes have been similarly amped because otherwise they become completely irrelevant.
The Dragonball Z syndrome strikes again.

So, here's a few more questions.

What's your view on the animated DCU's power levels. The characters there are all written as being far less powerful than their comic book incarnations. Do you think this makes them more intresting or less to see in action?

If power level determins how intresting a character actually is, why are you even bothering with Batman to begin with? He's been mentioned as being the powerless character as his appeal, but if you have to make him powerful to keep up, doesn't that go against the very character istelf?

For that matter, if you have to amp up Batman to be relevant to the DCU, wouldn't you have to amp up all the characters he faces as well? I mean, otherwise you're just having him fight meaningless characters that get by solely on name recongition.

[Francis]

what? when did this happen?
The 1987 - 1990 Question series. [Edit: Thanks for the reminder, SensorBoy - he was referred to Richard Dragon rather than trained by Shiva herself] He gained shamanic awareness and powers in the 2005 Question miniseries.

And I wouldn't say that Huntress and Nightwing were particularly bad as realistic DC heroes go.

[literally exaggerated]

and the prominent ones HAVE been amped. Joker's been a threat to the entire DC earth on multiple occasions, as has Ra's, Catwoman's engaged with the JLA, etc.

I don't particularly mind. I care less about how powerful characters are in a vacuum than how powerful they are in relation to each other. Whether Superman's tossing moons and doing lightspeed while Batman builds boomtube gloves, or Superman's tossing trucks and doing mach 5 while Batman builds really high-end exploding batarangs doesn't much matter to me.

What does matter to me is that there be some sort of reasonable degree of proportion. I.e. what I DON'T want to see is the moon tossing, lightspeed superman being teamed up with the exploding batarang Batman, because it renders the characters who aren't powerful totally irrelevant.

That was the problem with DBZ. It wasn't that the characters got too powerful in general, it was that a very small handful of characters got ridiculously powerful while everyone else got left in the dust. If they had all been that powerful it would have been fine.

[curefreak]

thats what i get i guess for pretending to know something about a character ive never even read.

[Alan2099]

What does matter to me is that there be some sort of reasonable degree of proportion. I.e. what I DON'T want to see is the moon tossing, lightspeed superman being teamed up with the exploding batarang Batman, because it renders the characters who aren't powerful totally irrelevant.
That's soley do to bad writting. Just because one character is powerful and aother is not doesn't mean they have nothing that could help the other out.

Even at his most powerful, Superman doesn't think like Batman. he doesn't know the things Batman knows and can't understand ther things batman can. Just because Batman isn't a physical match for anybody doesn't make the character useless.

Green Arrow and Green Lantern used to team-up all the time and Arrow is absolutley no match for what Lantern can do.