Jason Todd/Robin

[justus_cade]

I may be the odd one out, but I always liked Jason Todd as Robin. The character always intruiged me, and I really liked his updated origins of being a street punk kid that became Batman's new Robin. I wasn't so taken with the original origin as much, being a direct rip off of Dick Grayson, but I accepted it..and added to the fact I was 5 or 6 when Jason Todd put on the Robin outfuit..but I degress.

What I am curious to know, had Jason Todd lived (well..apparently he does live..but the verdict is still out on that one..) would he have gotten the same kind of treatment that Tim Drake has? e.g. the new Robin outfit that (I think) was first introduced in, or around A Lonely Place of Dying.

It's pretty much a given that Jason would've probably set out the rest of A Death in the Family anyway, and Bruce would've probably wouldn't have let Jason be Robin anymore (Bruce freaked out when Dick got shot by the Joker, and relieved him of his duties...). So I guess either way Batman would've been a loner again for awhile.

I'm just curious, all current Jason Todd rumblings not withstanding, what would've happened to the character had he lived back in the late '80s.

Also, are there any Death In the Family 'alternate' endings out there? Just curious if they made two endings of this title?

[Sean Whitmore]

I don't think a completely alternate ending was written or drawn, but they did have this page ready just in case:

http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y245/whitmore_sean/jasonalive.jpg


SEAN

[Forsaken_One]

In the end I remember them saying they had two entierly seperate issues ready to print, death and life. I remember seeing scans of the final three or four pages of the "life" issue, it was the same as the death issue except... well, he was alive. And Batman was happy about that, as the above panel shows. Then they're going home and Batman says encouraging things.

Much as I like Tim Drake as Robin... it might have been better. Then again Batman probably would still be a dick. :)

[Yuri Gankov]

In the current issue of batman it was just revealed that jason todd never died.

[jetter_cheeze]

In the current issue of batman it was just revealed that jason todd never died.

Actually, they never said he didn't die. They just stated there was no body in the coffin that they dug up.

For all intents and purposes, i still think he died in the bomb blast. He even said to Batman "i don't blame you for my death" recently in Batman. Meaning he might have been revived...

[Lorendiac]

Actually, they never said he didn't die. They just stated there was no body in the coffin that they dug up.

For all intents and purposes, i still think he died in the bomb blast. He even said to Batman "i don't blame you for my death" recently in Batman. Meaning he might have been revived...

Fair enough - "I don't blame you for my death" is certainly different from, "I was never really dead in the first place, but I don't blame you for thinking I was!" :)

[Forsaken_One]

Besides which, regardless of what they've done now the writer, artist, and editor at the time indended for Jason to be dead. So they killed him, someone else just decided they new better than those who voted.

Bloody un-American that is.

[Lorendiac]

Besides which, regardless of what they've done now the writer, artist, and editor at the time indended for Jason to be dead. So they killed him, someone else just decided they new better than those who voted.

Bloody un-American that is.

Un-American? Hey, if Americans didn't believe in changing their minds after they had already voted on something, in an election for instance, then every guy who got elected President would be re-elected over and over and over again until he died. Just imagine Richard Nixon getting elected several more times simply because he'd been elected in '68 and again in '72 and nobody wanted to admit that it might have been a mistake! :)

[Forsaken_One]

But they didn't have another election to ask "Do you want Jason Todd back" now did they? It was an individual or secret cabal (maybe the Editors...) who changed it without a vote, not the American people. So it's un-American.

After all George the First wasn't reelected but we DID elect Clinton. The congress didn't think "Hm, I don't like him. New president!"

[mwm1331]

But they didn't have another election to ask "Do you want Jason Todd back" now did they? It was an individual or secret cabal (maybe the Editors...) who changed it without a vote, not the American people. So it's un-American.

After all George the First wasn't reelected but we DID elect Clinton. The congress didn't think "Hm, I don't like him. New president!"
First of all the original "vote" on JT was both flawed in methodology, and "stuffed", there was nothing democratic about it.
Second the absolute irony of someone saying "bloody" unamerican is just too damn much.

[Forsaken_One]

Well yeah, it was a joke.

And each person payed their quarter for the 900 number. Besides which, I said it was un-American, not un-democratic.

[mwm1331]

Well yeah, it was a joke.

And each person payed their quarter for the 900 number. Besides which, I said it was un-American, not un-democratic.
And what exactly is American about having to Pay to vote?
How many Batmn fans couldn't get thier parents permission to vote?
How many middle age fan boys voted multiple times?

[Forsaken_One]

Responded to you in Private Message. We're waaaay off topic and I didn't feel like making it any worse.

Edit: Well, any worse than I already have. Sorry about that. :)

[PrimalScream]

any think he would have turned out like nightwing had he "survived"? i think he would have became a villain either way

[Tadhg]

Much as I like Tim Drake as Robin... it might have been better. Then again Batman probably would still be a dick. :)


Tim Drake was to become Robin regardless of whether Jason lived or died.

[justus_cade]

I just figured Jason Todd would cease to be Robin (atleast..maybe for awhile) because of Bruce's reaction to Dick being shot by the Joker, and if Jason Todd had lived through that explosion, Bruce would've surely told Jason to go on an extended leave of absense. I also think that in a way, DC and Warner Bros. probably wanted Batman to be a loner again for the 1989 movie and such. So either way, they would've written Robin out for awhile.

And you would think if Jason Todd had survived that ordeal, he may have toned down his attitude a little bit. Would've been a harsh lesson for him to learn, but he may have understood the importance of following orders.

Of course, Jason Todd could've always taken up a new identity the way Dick did. I'm using a what if scenerio anyway, and I'm not really focusing on the current issues regarding Jason Todd and Batman (although it has intruiged me greatly.)


I'm not sure what to make of all this Jason Todd stuff recently, so I'm trying to keep an open mind until the conclusion.

And to Jason's comment about him not blaming Bruce for his death, how could he? He was the one that rushed in headstrong to confront his mother... Batman gave him a direct order to stay put until he got back. I realize Jason was in a tough spot in that scenario, but really Jason has no one to blame but himself.

I have to admit A Death in the Family is a terrific read though. I really enjoy the story up till Jason's death, after that the whole Joker becoming the Ayatollah kinda lost me. I do like the interaction between Superman and Batman though... BTW is the Joker becomming the Ayatollah ever mentioned ever again?!

[Sean Whitmore]

I have to admit A Death in the Family is a terrific read though. I really enjoy the story up till Jason's death, after that the whole Joker becoming the Ayatollah kinda lost me. I do like the interaction between Superman and Batman though... BTW is the Joker becomming the Ayatollah ever mentioned ever again?!


I'm almost positive it has, in a Dixon issue of Birds of Prey (with Guice art) and an Action Comics by Joe Kelly (around the time that Superman was getting sick). I don't recall the details, but I know Joker was wearing some manner of mock-Muslim headdress and going on about diplomatic immunity. Although they might have changed the country to DC's fictional Quarac for these stories.


SEAN

[Guts/Batman]

I'm almost positive it has, in a Dixon issue of Birds of Prey (with Guice art) and an Action Comics by Joe Kelly (around the time that Superman was getting sick). I don't recall the details, but I know Joker was wearing some manner of mock-Muslim headdress and going on about diplomatic immunity. Although they might have changed the country to DC's fictional Quarac for these stories.


SEAN

That was priceless. Just seeing him in the mock-Muslim headress was priceless...

Then there was the Joker stopping in front of Bruce Wayne and laughing...

[Joe no Sleep]

I've been going through some old issues of Batman from before Jason's death, and I find that he wasn't really the "ungratefull punk" that he has now been pegged as. He threw a bucket at Scarecrow's head (#415) and may have pushed a rapist/murderer that had diplomatic immunity off a window balcony:"He Slipped." (#424 - and I'm an optimist, so I'll say he didn't do it) :) The flashback in the current Batman issue is a retcon that never happened.
His death was brought on by the scene from DARK KNIGHT RETURNS, with the empty costume in a glass case, and suddenly it became very "kewl" to think of having Batman work alone and have a dead Robin.

[Sean Whitmore]

I've been going through some old issues of Batman from before Jason's death, and I find that he wasn't really the "ungratefull punk" that he has now been pegged as. He threw a bucket at Scarecrow's head (#415) and may have pushed a rapist/murderer that had diplomatic immunity off a window balcony:"He Slipped." (#424 - and I'm an optimist, so I'll say he didn't do it) :) The flashback in the current Batman issue is a retcon that never happened.


I loved Jason Todd too, but the flashback is most definitely in-character for him. After Jason accidentally/intentionally killed the rapst (#425 leads me to believe it was the latter :) ), Jason grew increasingly angrier and insubordinate.

In #426 he disobeys Bruce's orders and beats down some bad guys harsher than Batman does. Batman notes that he has a "dangerously high level of aggression". When Batman angrily asks him if he thinks they're playing a game, Jason smirks and says: "Of course."

And according to Batman, Jason had been acting that way for awhile. Things had gotten so bad that he actually suspended Robin that issue. So I could definitely see the flashback in the latest issue happening.


SEAN

[justus_cade]

I always assumed Robin killed the rapist, but I liked how it was open to interpitation from the readers to make up their mind on what happened.

I guess Jason's insubordination was just a natural progression that the character was taking since his 'revised' origin. Being a street punk turned vigilante would give him an advantage of being able to relate to the crime, and what he felt was the appropriate punishment. Bruce and Jason were already clashing on their views on how to handle criminals, so Bruce and Jason would've probably parted ways eventually anyway due to their different views/beliefs.


With all the latest Jason Todd rumblings going around, and going back to the older issues, I wonder if Jason Todd may have been getting involved with some other "orginizations" that started to contribute to his reckless behavior. This is all in hindsight of course, and I could be making something out of nothing (which is probably true) but in light of what's happening recently it would be interesting to see if Jason was getting involved in things before A Death in the Family, that Bruce wasn't aware of. After all, Jason wasn't exactly open with Bruce, and kept alot of things to himself.


If Jason Todd had managed to get into a different group, or got the attention of someone else, it may explain how he 'survived'. (yes yes, I said I wasn't going there, but..what the hey...) Perhaps someone was shadowing Jason when he was on his mission to find his mother, and possibly saved his life.


Wasn't Shiva in Death in the Family for a brief appearance? Maybe she's a clue to Jason Todd being alive.

[Joe no Sleep]

I loved Jason Todd too, but the flashback is most definitely in-character for him. After Jason accidentally/intentionally killed the rapst (#425 leads me to believe it was the latter :) ), Jason grew increasingly angrier and insubordinate.

In #426 he disobeys Bruce's orders and beats down some bad guys harsher than Batman does. Batman notes that he has a "dangerously high level of aggression". When Batman angrily asks him if he thinks they're playing a game, Jason smirks and says: "Of course."

And according to Batman, Jason had been acting that way for awhile. Things had gotten so bad that he actually suspended Robin that issue. So I could definitely see the flashback in the latest issue happening.


SEAN

Since he "died" in the 4-pt. story after #425, this seems moot, since Starlin is building up to where he looks for his mother. If he wasn't set to die, we probably would've seen more stories like what came before that, where Jason is only guilty of being impulsive, eager to try the first idea that pops into his head, or not be a yes-man to Batman, but not really the "snot" that Dennis O'Neil tagged him as in the History Channel documentary on comics. Reviews of some stories from that era pre-"Death" that made it to trade paperback (THE CULT, TEN NIGHTS OF THE BEAST, "For The Man Who Has Everything") paint the oppsite with a Robin that's not really different from the old Robin. It's in recent retro flashbacks in other comics, like Nightwing:Year One and Gotham Knights, where you get the "Oh yeah, and he was like this,and this, and that, and another thing and even Barbara noticed that boy aint right...etc" But none of that was really there BACK THEN. We're seeing the aftermath of a changing tide. This is no slam against any of that stuff, but comics pros/fans are funny like that.

[Joe no Sleep]

Wasn't Shiva in Death in the Family for a brief appearance? Maybe she's a clue to Jason Todd being alive.


She was suspected of being Jason's birth mother, then it was revealed with truth serum that she had no children.

My questionis that if he never died, then how did he give Batman the slip the whole time he was carrying the body? I'm still thinking this is a Infinite Crisis/Paralllel Earths thing.

[Sean Whitmore]

Since he "died" in the 4-pt. story after #425, this seems moot, since Starlin is building up to where he looks for his mother. If he wasn't set to die, we probably would've seen more stories like what came before that, where Jason is only guilty of being impulsive, eager to try the first idea that pops into his head, or not be a yes-man to Batman


We probably would have, but we didn't. Instead we saw an angry Jason. So it's perfectly fair for Winnick to revisit that period, even if that period wouldn't have existed if he weren't being set up to die.

But beyond that, I agree with you. Jason was not a "snot". I absolutely loathed his portrayal in Nightwing Year One, and I get annoyed at the constant references to him getting himself killed because he was "impulsive" or "disobediant".


SEAN

[mohammedali]

What I think would be really cool is if they did an elseworld of Todd surviving. Would Batman be anywhere near as dark? Would he still keep Todd as Robin or would Todd invent a new personna? What would be Todds relationship with people like Dick and Tim (assuming Tim even comes into the picture). So many things would change, the Batman universe would be completely different. Maybe instead of the Robin costume we would see a Joker one due to Todds revenge, who knows. Any thoughts?

Mohammed Ali

[Guts/Batman]

What I think would be really cool is if they did an elseworld of Todd surviving. Would Batman be anywhere near as dark? Would he still keep Todd as Robin or would Todd invent a new personna? What would be Todds relationship with people like Dick and Tim (assuming Tim even comes into the picture). So many things would change, the Batman universe would be completely different. Maybe instead of the Robin costume we would see a Joker one due to Todds revenge, who knows. Any thoughts?

Mohammed Ali

That would be cool if there was an Elseworld Jason Todd didn't have the personality he did before he died.

The personality he had before he died, he was being set up to die as he did or get taken out some other way.

Plus, if comes out that the Jason Todd running around Gotham right now is a mix of a few different Jason Todds (ala Donna Troy), it could be very interesting to see how Bruce deals with it.

[DouglasDanger]

What I think would be really cool is if they did an elseworld of Todd surviving. Would Batman be anywhere near as dark? Would he still keep Todd as Robin or would Todd invent a new personna? What would be Todds relationship with people like Dick and Tim (assuming Tim even comes into the picture). So many things would change, the Batman universe would be completely different. Maybe instead of the Robin costume we would see a Joker one due to Todds revenge, who knows. Any thoughts?

Mohammed Ali

that would be really neat. I wonder what would happen to him.

DKR was a great book, but I really am sick of the psychotic, overly paranoid, overly dark Batman Miller created. The whole Batman is a crazy paranoid jackass lunatic who can do anything is a trend started with DKR.