Would it be too much to ask for Carter and Ollie to die?

[Chad G.]

No joke. I struggle to find a use for Hawkman and Green Arrow(keep in mind this is just a personal opinion.) And that opinion is that I hate them both. Ollie is the less irratating of the two, but what with his role in IDC, and just his overall irratating attitude, he drives me nuts. I know he is suppose to serve a purpose, but it fails with me. I have come to accept most members of the JLA as what they are worth. I use to hate Plastic Man. But then when he was gone for a few issues, you start to realize just what comic relief he brings to the team and how important that it is. But Ollies wise cracking fence straddlingg get old.

But that doesn;t even compare to the disgust I hold toward Carter Hall. This character is a waste of ink each time the pen touchs the paper. From his call Superman arrogant in S/B(is that the pot calling the kettle black or what?), to "I'm gonna give you 10 minutes you won't forget in JLA 116, Carter has ran his time with me, and I hope above all hope, that some particularly gruesome and time consuming way is found for him to bite the big one in the upcoming IC. I don't care if its an OMAC, a villian, or shellfish. Just something painful.

Please DC people. Please

[UniqueFrequency]

i think firstly Carter won't die because he's immortal (somewhat). next, DC isn't gonna kill Ollie after all that trouble to bring him back a few years ago, right?

[Sean Whitmore]

But that doesn;t even compare to the disgust I hold toward Carter Hall. This character is a waste of ink each time the pen touchs the paper. From his call Superman arrogant in S/B(is that the pot calling the kettle black or what?), to "I'm gonna give you 10 minutes you won't forget in JLA 116,


Almost all of the other heroes were acting out of character in "Public Enemies", so you can hardly pick Carter out from the crowd.

And his line to Batman was the baddest of badassery I have seen in a long time. :D

As for Ollie, I don't know that I'd want him killed AGAIN. But if I'd been given a vote the first time around, I'd never have brought him back to life. And Connor would reign supreme.


SEAN

[Chad G.]

i think firstly Carter won't die because he's immortal (somewhat). next, DC isn't gonna kill Ollie after all that trouble to bring him back a few years ago, right?

Doesn't he get re-incarnated somewhere down the road everytime he dies????

[Chad G.]

Almost all of the other heroes were acting out of character in "Public Enemies", so you can hardly pick Carter out from the crowd.

And his line to Batman was the baddest of badassery I have seen in a long time. :D


SEAN

Yeah Yeah, I Know. ;)

If I wasn't a total Bat dork, I probably would have eaten that up, but.....

He just really gets on my nerves. I hopes his hubris is finally the death of him.

[UniqueFrequency]

Doesn't he get re-incarnated somewhere down the road everytime he dies????

yeah that's what i meant. as in he's always gonna come back anyway, so his death wouldn't really mean anything

[Captain Jim]

Actually, DC recently went to a lot of trouble to bring them *both* back. Personally, I would have preferred a return to the silver age Katar Hol, but since that's neigh impossible, I'll settle for the reworked golden age character. And GA has *such* a history. This is where I repeat the line about there being no such thing as bad characters, only bad treatments of the characters.

[Sean Whitmore]

Actually, DC recently went to a lot of trouble to bring them *both* back. Personally, I would have preferred a return to the silver age Katar Hol, but since that's neigh impossible, I'll settle for the reworked golden age character. And GA has *such* a history. This is where I repeat the line about there being no such thing as bad characters, only bad treatments of the characters.


Was the resurrection angle always part of Carter's origin, or was that created by Johns to bring him back?


SEAN

[Captain Jim]

The golden age character was always portrayed as the reincarnation of an Egyptian prince.

[Chad G.]

yeah that's what i meant. as in he's always gonna come back anyway, so his death wouldn't really mean anything

It would mean a sigh of happiness from this reader, ;) .

[celluloid_droid]

I say kill Carter save Ollie.
Why? Carter is a conservative and Ollie is a liberal. There, I said it, I'm biased.

[Patience]

Really? I say kill Carter and save Ollie because Carter is a smelly Thanagarian Caveman and Ollie can actually be pretty funny sometimes.

[Sean Whitmore]

Really? I say kill Carter and save Ollie because Carter is a smelly Thanagarian Caveman and Ollie can actually be pretty funny sometimes.


Carter can be funny! In one issue he chopped a guy's arm off with an axe.

Made ME laugh. :)


SEAN

[SUPERECWFAN1]

In JSA ( Thanksgiving Issue) Ollie and Carter shared a meal. It made me laugh. Carter snuck in to eat some of the Turkey and Ollie shot an arrow into it. That made me chuckle. Thier so different they can make ya smile. :)

[Babylon23]

I'm a bit biaised, as Hawkman and Green Arrow are 2 of my favourite characters. Having said that, I'm not a fan of either of their titles at the moment.

I'd like to see the Ollie that Mike Grell wrote in the 80's GA series. This was a great series.

As for Carter, I haven't enjoyed his book since Geoff Johns left.

[pennywisdom]

What's the rationale for killing them off? You just don't like them? They're possibly one-tenth as annoying as the Ultimates, so let's keep our priorities straight.

Anyway, Green Arrow is the man. I think he's the type of character Marvel would publish and DC needs more of. He's human, warts and all. His flaws add a level of realism. If you don't like him, that's just part of the appeal. Besides, I love the idea of an old-fashioned Roosevelt liberal who doesn't screw around. There's this perception of liberal Democrats today as limp-wrists and it couldn't be further from the truth. Ollie's just the perfect character, IMO.

[SUPERECWFAN1]

I have the same problem with the recnt Green Arrow. Love the charactor , hate the current book. If Johns , Waid or Melzter ever comes to GA i'd come back.

[Ender]

I like Ollie on the JLU. Never really read any of his books though. He seems to lack any kind of defining story to suck me in ya know does Ollie have a "Dark Knight Returns"?

[Shellhead]

I like Ollie on the JLU. Never really read any of his books though. He seems to lack any kind of defining story to suck me in ya know does Ollie have a "Dark Knight Returns"?

Yes, two actually.

The "hard-travelling heroes" issues starring Green Arrow and Green Lantern, by Denny O'Neil and Neal Adams were more than a decade ahead of the industry, in terms of quality writing and artwork.

http://image.milehighcomics.com/istore/images/fullsize/37247704690.1.GIF

The Longbow Hunters, by artist/writer Mike Grell was the excellent start to a very solid post-Crisis run.

http://image.milehighcomics.com/istore/images/fullsize/37073875630.1.GIF

[pureclint]

Ehh Hawkman rules, his book is a very underated book atm. ANd he was great in the recent JLA arc.

Ollie can be cool, but his book is done by Winick and inconsistant.

Neither should die, as they have just recently been brought back.

[K'Nort]

Both can certainly be obnoxious, but they have strong distinct personalities, and that's something to support. The major icons get way too bland. And the in-team spats make for some great dialogue.

[Chad G.]

What's the rationale for killing them off? You just don't like them? They're possibly one-tenth as annoying as the Ultimates, so let's keep our priorities straight.


Really. How so? What would make the Ultimates annoying, and how would they tie into this discussion as far as keeping our "priorities straight". So far, most of the posts are split down the middle as far as let one of the two die because they irritate people.


Anyway, Green Arrow is the man. I think he's the type of character Marvel would publish and DC needs more of. He's human, warts and all. His flaws add a level of realism. If you don't like him, that's just part of the appeal. Besides, I love the idea of an old-fashioned Roosevelt liberal who doesn't screw around. There's this perception of liberal Democrats today as limp-wrists and it couldn't be further from the truth. Ollie's just the perfect character, IMO.


My major issue with Ollie is how "wishy washy" he is. I personally am a Republican, but I do entertain some liberal points of view on certain matters, But Ollie drives me right through a wall. And his whole role in IDC chaps my sack too. I don't know. The dynamic he brings to the team just doesn;t turn my crank, you know? He was much better off dead.

[joint venture]

I think that killing him off is not the solution, though I understand the motifs.

The first issues of Oliver Queen's comeback were damn cool, I read and bought them on tpbs. But it never appealed tome enough to make it a monthly, and i consider GA one of my favorite characters.

Because of his current prominency he won't be killed(Ollie). Perhaps Conner would be since the whole 'i've-been-dead-and-came-back-to-meet-my-child- and-now-he's-dead' idea is a damn good one.

We have Arsenal, Speedy and Ollie. It would make GA's continuity less convoluted and give him more resolution to act further.

Every DC character does not need a sidekick family to make a book interesting. There's 3 wonder women, like 7 bat-people, 6 or more speedsters and so on and so forth...we could live without some of them.

I hope Infinite Crisis kills a lot of them.

[Shellhead]

My major issue with Ollie is how "wishy washy" he is. I personally am a Republican, but I do entertain some liberal points of view on certain matters, But Ollie drives me right through a wall. And his whole role in IDC chaps my sack too. I don't know. The dynamic he brings to the team just doesn;t turn my crank, you know? He was much better off dead.

Ollie hasn't been written well in recent times. He wasn't wishy-washy for most of his solo series, or back in the hard-travelling heroes days. Quite the contrary, he was somebody who was passionate about his beliefs. He was written out of character during IDC, because the real Oliver Queen would have never permitted the mind-wiping of Dr. Light. For that matter, Hawkman would have killed Dr. Light for what he did, he wouldn't have gone for the mind-wiping either.

Bad writing is not a good reason for killing good characters. Actually, there are very few worthwhile reasons for killing good characters, given that they will no longer be available for telling good stories after that one shocking story where they are killed.

[Alan2099]

You want them dead just because you don't like them? Kinda selfish, don't you think? Even if you don't like them, why kill them? Why not just have them not apear for a while? If they were killed, they'd just have to be ressucrected later and that would just cheapen whatever story they "died" in and make the concept of death in DC appear even cheaper.

[EZMOHR]

I actually like both of them. They are two opposing sides, that in the end work together to help people out. They think different about things, but they want the same ends. Two good characters...I hope they don't die.

[Andy S.]

I think Hawkman just needs a makeover. Or at least a new helmet. :eek:

[Chad G.]

You want them dead just because you don't like them? Kinda selfish, don't you think? Even if you don't like them, why kill them? Why not just have them not apear for a while? If they were killed, they'd just have to be ressucrected later and that would just cheapen whatever story they "died" in and make the concept of death in DC appear even cheaper.

I never pretended to say that it would be the proper move. And you're right. It IS very selfish. Probably won't happen. That doesn't mean that I don't despise the characters and wouldn't throw a party at their death.

[Suzanne]

To answer your question Omega, yes. I like them both, and I feel same way for Carter that you do for Bats (though I wouldn't call myself a freak :p ). Both were resurrected fairly recently, so killing them again would be wasteful. Besides, if you don't like them, just don't read their books :)

I think Hawkman just needs a makeover. Or at least a new helmet. :eek:How so? I think he looks fine as is :cool:

[Babylon23]

Anybody questioning the strength of Green Arrow as a character really needs to read Shellhead's recommended titles. "Hard Travelling Heroes" and "The Longbow Hunters" are both excellent series, and highlight just how good a character Ollie is. I'd also recommend the Green Arrow series that followed Longbow Hunters.

[mwm1331]

Ollie is nothing more than a less effective, less interesting, less appealing, and less necessary version of Bruce. He is redundant, repetitive, refuse.
Kill him off.
Hawkman can be an interesting character when handles right, and his ties to Dr Fate and Black Adam, make for a rich history.
Keep him.

[pennywisdom]

First of all, I have to say that I'm surprised Shellhead or anyone else would imply that "Longbow Hunters" is the truest testament to Ollie as a character. Yes, some view it as a definitive work, but I think it takes Green Arrow and puts him in Frank Castle territory. Not very in-sync with the Denny O'Neil version of the character at all.

Secondly, I have to plug the Green Arrow FAQ. It's easily the greatest FAQ ever, and I'm not at all biased. :D All kidding aside, you might find something worthwhile there, too.

[Forsaken_One]

And his line to Batman was the baddest of badassery I have seen in a long time. :D
Really? I mean... really? Because my first line when I heard "10 minutes you'll never forget" was "Man that's gay." Not like that's stupid gay, like that's one of the most homoerotic comments I've ever read in a comic. The fact that it's coming from a guy with an exposed curly-haired chest to another guy who wears spandex and a mock-leather cape only heightens that feeling. :)

As for Hawkman himself I don't mind him too much. I thought he was an ass in the lastest few JSAs and couldn't quite get why everyone was bowing to his (if you'll pardon the pun) hawkish actions towards Black Adam, but other than that I don't really see him so I don't really care.

I do, however, think every other hero should mock him. Constantly. They should all be floating around talking about how great it is to fly. Aren't you glad you can fly? And without wings too. And all the other great powers, like light beams and green constructs and superstrength and heat vision. Man it's cool that they can fly along with all that. Hey Hawkman, isn't it neat that we can all fly?

Yeah. I find his character's powers to be somewhat ridiculous.

[Paradox]

mwm1331 does the time warp:

Ollie is nothing more than a less effective, less interesting, less appealing, and less necessary version of Bruce.

From that I can only make conjecture that you know nothing about Ollie past about 1965 or so, because none of that has been true for a long, long time.

[mwm1331]

From that I can only make conjecture that you know nothing about Ollie past about 1965 or so, because none of that has been true for a long, long time.

Nither know nor care.
He is just another wanna be bat.
Not as cool, not as tough, not as effective, not as much of a man.
Kill him off and spend time on a character who has worth.

[LibrarianThorne]

Nither know nor care.
He is just another wanna be bat.
Not as cool, not as tough, not as effective, not as much of a man.
Kill him off and spend time on a character who has worth.

Just because you don't care doesn't mean other people hate him. You're just an asshat, asshat.

And I completely agree with the Hard Travelling Heroes recommendation. Just picked the trade up two weeks ago, that's some good storytelling. Quiver still stands as my favorite Green Arrow trade, though.

Who else is looking forward to the Hard Travelling Heroes coming back in GL#7?

[Shellhead]

Hawkman can be an interesting character when handles right, and his ties to Dr Fate and Black Adam, make for a rich history.
Keep him.

Hawkman can even be an interesting character when handled wrong. I enjoyed Ostrander and Truman's Hawkworld series, even as it messed up post-Crisis continuity. And I have also enjoyed several arcs in the current Hawkman series, as well as Carter's role in the JSA.

[ExoKnight]

Hawkman and Green Arrow both of my favorite characters. So I hope they don't get killed or cancelled. Actually the recent creative team on Hawkman has done a bang up job the last year on his series. Ollie has come a long way, his attitude is a breath of fresh air in the DCU. His series has had some great moments with good runs by Smith, Meltzer, and Winnick. Plus, he was spotlighted in Identity Crisis quite nicely. I would be disappointed if DC killed them off.

[Shellhead]

Really? I mean... really? Because my first line when I heard "10 minutes you'll never forget" was "Man that's gay." Not like that's stupid gay, like that's one of the most homoerotic comments I've ever read in a comic. The fact that it's coming from a guy with an exposed curly-haired chest to another guy who wears spandex and a mock-leather cape only heightens that feeling. :)

As for Hawkman himself I don't mind him too much. I thought he was an ass in the lastest few JSAs and couldn't quite get why everyone was bowing to his (if you'll pardon the pun) hawkish actions towards Black Adam, but other than that I don't really see him so I don't really care.

I do, however, think every other hero should mock him. Constantly. They should all be floating around talking about how great it is to fly. Aren't you glad you can fly? And without wings too. And all the other great powers, like light beams and green constructs and superstrength and heat vision. Man it's cool that they can fly along with all that. Hey Hawkman, isn't it neat that we can all fly?

Yeah. I find his character's powers to be somewhat ridiculous.

Don't blame Hawkman for the Jeph Loeb's sloppy writing. You might understand Hawkman better if you realized that he has been reincarnated many times over the last three millenia. That has made Hawkman more bold and ruthless than most heroes, which can come across as abrasive and intimidating.

As for the mockery, remember that everybody respects Batman, who doesn't have any powers at all. Carter Hall has more cumulative combat experience than any other DC character. Thanks to the Nth metal, he doesn't actually need the wings to fly, just to steer while flying, and it grants him superhuman strength, sufficient to total a police car with a single blow from his mace in one case. There are other aspects to the Nth metal that he hasn't worked out yet, but there is vast potential power there, judging by the effects that Onimar Synn wields.

[Chad G.]

I do, however, think every other hero should mock him. Constantly. They should all be floating around talking about how great it is to fly. Aren't you glad you can fly? And without wings too. And all the other great powers, like light beams and green constructs and superstrength and heat vision. Man it's cool that they can fly along with all that. Hey Hawkman, isn't it neat that we can all fly?



Superman: Hey Hawkman, wanna fly up to the moon(snicker, snicker.)
Hawkman: Screw you Supes, I 've still got a stick with a big round knobby ball on it?
Superman: It's called a mace Carter.
Hawkman: Duuhhhh, I knew that. Huh Huh.

Hawkman then leaves to buy more Mach 3's for chest shaving

[Chad G.]

Besides, if you don't like them, just don't read their books :)


Guys, you're missing the point here. I DON"T read their books. And I know they have both been resurrected. And I know that DC won't kill them(grrrrr). This was just my commentary on why I think they are wastes of ink and time, and my whimsical desire to see them die.

[Jolly Mon]

Besides, if you don't like them, just don't read their books :)


Guys, you're missing the point here. I DON"T read their books. And I know they have both been resurrected. And I know that DC won't kill them(grrrrr). This was just my commentary on why I think they are wastes of ink and time, and my whimsical desire to see them die.

Is anyone else disturbed by a "whimsical desire" to see someone (even a fictional character) die? :confused:

[Shellhead]

Guys, you're missing the point here. I DON"T read their books. And I know they have both been resurrected. And I know that DC won't kill them(grrrrr). This was just my commentary on why I think they are wastes of ink and time, and my whimsical desire to see them die.

How about this challenge Omega Effect... we let you kill Ollie and Carter, but only after you design replacement characters that are more interesting. Not more powerful, but more interesting.

[Ian J.N.]

Personally, I think Ollie and Carter are two of the best characters DC has to offer. With two hundred some superheroes donning spandex to "make the world a better place," Ollie actually makes the psychology credible. He's the hot blooded liberal you hate to get into a discussion with at a party. And while I wasn't wowed by Johns' writing on Hawkman, I loved his revamp of the character. In his alter ego, Carter has three millenia worth of culture and sophistication, but put on the mask and he's a brute savage, a warrior in the very truest sense of the word. It's a great dynamic.

Both characters exceed the norm, and it'd be a shame to kill them off.

[Chad G.]

How about this challenge Omega Effect... we let you kill Ollie and Carter, but only after you design replacement characters that are more interesting. Not more powerful, but more interesting.

Humm, lets see. Create two new characters, but they can't be like these two. Well great. So that rules out the Robin Hood wannabe persona. And the useless wise-cracking little quip ability. Whoops, can't forget that I can't let them straddle them fence on every issue, by agreeing to something, then fussing about it constantly and regreting it, and them wanting to do it again. Oh, and they can't have snappy wings or need a Remington razor to look civil. What else. Oh yes. They can't look like a cross between an ape and Cro-Magnon man. What else. Of course. A better dialogue than "I say we kill im".

This could take me "10 minutes" I'll never forget.

Let me go find a kindergarden class. A replacement for Hawkman and Green Arrow seems just their speed.

[Chad G.]

[QUOTE=Omega Effect][QUOTE=Suzanne] Besides, if you don't like them, just don't read their books :)


Is anyone else disturbed by a "whimsical desire" to see someone (even a fictional character) die? :confused:

I don't think so. Theres an entire post on the boards where people are stating who they "hope" bites the big one in IC.

Seems to be a popular idea.

[Shellhead]

Humm, lets see. Create two new characters, but they can't be like these two. Well great. So that rules out the Robin Hood wannabe persona. And the useless wise-cracking little quip ability. Whoops, can't forget that I can't let them straddle them fence on every issue, by agreeing to something, then fussing about it constantly and regreting it, and them wanting to do it again. Oh, and they can't have snappy wings or need a Remington razor to look civil. What else. Oh yes. They can't look like a cross between an ape and Cro-Magnon man. What else. Of course. A better dialogue than "I say we kill im".

This could take me "10 minutes" I'll never forget.

Let me go find a kindergarden class. A replacement for Hawkman and Green Arrow seems just their speed.

<checking my watch>

Thirty minutes already. Creating interesting new characters isn't easy, is it? That alone is a good reason to keep the current characters, especially when tens of thousands of readers buy their comics each month.

[Chad G.]

<checking my watch>

Thirty minutes already. Creating interesting new characters isn't easy, is it? That alone is a good reason to keep the current characters, especially when tens of thousands of readers buy their comics each month.

<stretches and wakes up from nap>

Sorry, I just thought you were just being rhetorical. Didn't realize that was an actual request. My creative team of kindy gardners will get right on that task.

[Paul Newell]

Guys, no snark at each other, please.

[Babylon23]

First of all, I have to say that I'm surprised Shellhead or anyone else would imply that "Longbow Hunters" is the truest testament to Ollie as a character. Yes, some view it as a definitive work, but I think it takes Green Arrow and puts him in Frank Castle territory. Not very in-sync with the Denny O'Neil version of the character at all.

Secondly, I have to plug the Green Arrow FAQ. It's easily the greatest FAQ ever, and I'm not at all biased. :D All kidding aside, you might find something worthwhile there, too.

I don't think he was pushed into Punisher territory. It's true that he killed a man, but he didn't become a homocidal maniac because of it.

Part of what I liked about Longbow Hunters and the subsequent GA series is that I didn't think it didn't contradicted the previous versions of the character. Ollie had grown from a brash young liberal to a more balanced middle-aged man with liberal leanings. In effect, he aged and matured, while still maintaining his liberal views. He was still out seeking to right social injustices, much like he did in the GL/GA series.

[Sean Whitmore]

I don't think he was pushed into Punisher territory. It's true that he killed a man, but he didn't become a homocidal maniac because of it.


Did he shave his head and go to live in a Tibetan monastery?

Oh, no, wait...that was the first time he killed someone. I keep confusing those two. ;)


SEAN

[Shellhead]

I don't think he was pushed into Punisher territory. It's true that he killed a man, but he didn't become a homocidal maniac because of it.

Part of what I liked about Longbow Hunters and the subsequent GA series is that I didn't think it didn't contradicted the previous versions of the character. Ollie had grown from a brash young liberal to a more balanced middle-aged man with liberal leanings. In effect, he aged and matured, while still maintaining his liberal views. He was still out seeking to right social injustices, much like he did in the GL/GA series.

Well said. I was unable to respond to pennywisdom's question, because it's been so many years since I read either of those Green Arrow runs. And it takes time and effort to get to the back of the large walk-in closet where I keep my older comics. But my vague recollection was that I thought that the Longbow Hunters was a reasonable take on Green Arrow and how he changed since the hard-travelling days.

[Babylon23]

Well said. I was unable to respond to pennywisdom's question, because it's been so many years since I read either of those Green Arrow runs. And it takes time and effort to get to the back of the large walk-in closet where I keep my older comics. But my vague recollection was that I thought that the Longbow Hunters was a reasonable take on Green Arrow and how he changed since the hard-travelling days.

Man, I'd love a walk-in closet for my comics. Currently, they're scattered over several bookshalves and dozens of boxes.

On of the great things about GA is that he was one of the few characters who actually aged in comics. I respect Longbow Hunters for presenting that in an interesting and believable way.

[literally exaggerated]

I like Green Arrow a lot in theory. There's a dearth of strong leftwing heroes in comics, and GA fills that role nicely (especially with Ultimate Thor currently powerless). However, like many characters recently, he's been handled fairly badly. The Green Arrow I know wouldn't just stand back while Batman gets lobotomized by his own teammates. Thats the whole point. He's an idealis who doesn't back down just for the sake of authority or something.

I'm not a fan of Carter at all, but I think he's actually been handled pretty well recently. Doesn't mean I like him, but he's filled his function quite well.

[mwm1331]

I like Green Arrow a lot in theory. There's a dearth of strong leftwing heroes in comics, and GA fills that role nicely (especially with Ultimate Thor currently powerless). However, like many characters recently, he's been handled fairly badly. The Green Arrow I know wouldn't just stand back while Batman gets lobotomized by his own teammates. Thats the whole point. He's an idealis who doesn't back down just for the sake of authority or something.

I'm not a fan of Carter at all, but I think he's actually been handled pretty well recently. Doesn't mean I like him, but he's filled his function quite well.
How do you figure?
Nearly all of comic book superheroes are left wing.
Thats the problem, believeing some little panty waist hippy can make it as a hero.
I mean look at Green arrow, a billionaire socalist? Hes the definition of a limosine liberal.
The only characters who are ever portrayed as truly right wing or conservative are the anti heroes.
No "true heroes" are
You got Guy Gardner, and .................................................. ........................
WHo else?
The Question was when written by ditko before he became a zen spouting idiot, Black canaru is liberal, oracle is liberal, batman has very liberal tendaniceis despite the fact that when viewed objectively it makes no damn sense, superman is a screaming liberal, who I ask other than guy isn't a liberal?

As to creating a more intersting character thats easy.
Fan Boy.
A disgruntled comic fan who manages to pierce the fourth wall and uses his knowledge to attack and destroy comic characters he doesn't like.
Far more intersting than Green arrow, hell Ma Hunkel was more intersting than green arrow.

[f.ram]

The only characters who are ever portrayed as truly right wing or conservative are the anti heroes.

captain america?!?! punisher?!?! even daredevil maintains the sacredness of church. but to be fair, marvel has a tendency to be far more conservative when compared to a company like DC who made the #1 supervillain in their universe president of the US as commentary. superman has only recently been portrayed has having liberal tendencies. wonder woman & the flash (both barry & wally) have expressed support of the concept of a death penalty.

[mwm1331]

captain america?!?! punisher?!?! even daredevil maintains the sacredness of church. but to be fair, marvel has a tendency to be far more conservative when compared to a company like DC who made the #1 supervillain in their universe president of the US as commentary. superman has only recently been portrayed has having liberal tendencies. wonder woman & the flash (both barry & wally) have expressed support of the concept of a death penalty.

I was mainly referring to DC.

[literally exaggerated]

Superman? left-wing? The dude's a goddam boyscout. He's all about old-school American values, a Kansas farmboy through and through. He's not a neocon to be sure, and he might even vote Dem if he existed in this world, but liberal he is not.

When I say liberal I mean real liberal. Guys like Green Arrow or Ultimate Thor who don't take any bullshit from the nation state, who have no qualms about supporting popular revolution. Not people who want to basically maintain the status quo (which is *exactly* what Superman does), but people who want to change everything. Just throw out all the paleoconservative/neofascist bullshit, break off the yoke of oppression via market forces, and work to bring about an honest to god better world. Even those two aren't quite as liberal as I'd like to see in a hero, but they're a helluva lot closer than anyone else in mainstream comics.

[CaptMagellan]

I liked Carter when Johns brought him back (although I really hate the remembering of all his past lives - gee now I'm a Highlander ripoff - idea) and I loved Ollie before his death.

Now though, especially post ID Crisis, they seem to be bad characatures of themselves.

[Alan2099]

How do you figure?
Nearly all of comic book superheroes are left wing.
Thats the problem, believeing some little panty waist hippy can make it as a hero.
I mean look at Green arrow, a billionaire socalist? Hes the definition of a limosine liberal.
The only characters who are ever portrayed as truly right wing or conservative are the anti heroes.
No "true heroes" are
You got Guy Gardner, and .................................................. ........................
WHo else?
The Question was when written by ditko before he became a zen spouting idiot, Black canaru is liberal, oracle is liberal, batman has very liberal tendaniceis despite the fact that when viewed objectively it makes no damn sense, superman is a screaming liberal, who I ask other than guy isn't a liberal?

As to creating a more intersting character thats easy.
Fan Boy.
A disgruntled comic fan who manages to pierce the fourth wall and uses his knowledge to attack and destroy comic characters he doesn't like.
Far more intersting than Green arrow, hell Ma Hunkel was more intersting than green arrow.
Rush Limbaugh? Is that you?

By the way, you're "original" character ahs been done. Several times. It almost always fails because nobody can actually write it seriously without it coming across as a unlikeble and petty.

[Jolly Mon]

Rush Limbaugh? Is that you?

By the way, you're "original" character ahs been done. Several times. It almost always fails because nobody can actually write it seriously without it coming across as a unlikeble and petty.

Art imitates life?

[Shellhead]

As to creating a more intersting character thats easy.
Fan Boy.
A disgruntled comic fan who manages to pierce the fourth wall and uses his knowledge to attack and destroy comic characters he doesn't like.
Far more intersting than Green arrow, hell Ma Hunkel was more intersting than green arrow.

Don't quit your day job. ;)

[Guts/Batman]

If we kill Carter and Ollie, who will be the chief dick in DCU now that Batman will stop being BatDick?

[Shellhead]

If we kill Carter and Ollie, who will be the chief dick in DCU now that Batman will stop being BatDick?

Nightwing? He's already a Dick.

[Guts/Batman]

Nightwing? He's already a Dick.

Of course he is. :p

[Sean Whitmore]

If we kill Carter and Ollie, who will be the chief dick in DCU now that Batman will stop being BatDick?


Niles Caulder?

(See what I did there? It's funny because he is a dick, and he's sometimes called Chief. That's multi-layered humor, that is)


SEAN

[mwm1331]

Rush Limbaugh? Is that you?

By the way, you're "original" character ahs been done. Several times. It almost always fails because nobody can actually write it seriously without it coming across as a unlikeble and petty.
Well if he comes across as unlikeable and petty he is just like ollie the queeen aint he?
When has this been done BTW?
Or for another interesting character
Bob.
A superhero who has the power to clean toilets really really fast.
Much more interesting than green arrow.

[Reggie Swats]

I like Ollie on the JLU. Never really read any of his books though. He seems to lack any kind of defining story to suck me in ya know does Ollie have a "Dark Knight Returns"?

The first issues of the current GA series are collected in the graphic novel "Quiver", and do a very good job of bringing Ollie back from the dead. Probably one of, if not THE best, "Bringing Back The Dead" comic book story. It'll make you laugh, but it will also make you curious about this crazy bearded archer and his rich history in the DCU (A good portion of which is covered in Hard Traveling Heroes and Longbow Hunters, as mentioned by Shellhead).

[bannermanonemillion]

The problem isn't the character of GA overall, it's what's happened to him recently starting with IDC as others have mentioned..

It it was just one bad story with GA, we could Hama the thing and move on. But DC in their finite wisdom made IDC the backbone of the current state of the DCU. Now you have Ollie doing something so against his character it's enough to make your eyes bleed. AND on top of that is the fact that he refuses to apologize for it. Batman was wrong to create Brother Eye. He knows it, we know it, and every chance they get someone looks at Batman and calls him a paranoid dipstick more or less. IOW, Batman is getting called on his BS left and right.

But no one's doing that to Ollie. He keeps spouting that the mindwipes were right and given the choice he'd do it again even though the mindwipes are causing a bigger $#!+storm than Brother Eye did. All the mindwipes being undone or reversed leads to scads of bad guys PO'd beyond words at the JLA and itching for revenge, as well as giving Luthor a rallying cry to create his Society.

If Ollie had just acted in character this could have been avoided. But I have yet to see any character (except maybe Wally) corner him and tell him that it's at least partially his fault.

And if anyone can tell me if Ollie has been dragged to the side and given a verbal pimpslap over this, I'll eat my words right here in this thread.

[DMike]

All the mindwipes being undone or reversed leads to scads of bad guys PO'd beyond words at the JLA and itching for revenge, as well as giving Luthor a rallying cry to create his Society.

Of course, now that we know that Society Luthor is Alex Luthor and that he only gathered the villains to round up heroes for his own mindwiping purposes, then we know his rallying cry was just a hypocritical lie to lure gullible villains to do the dirty work for him.