Is The Operative really evil?

[Magneto_X]

I'm not so sure.

He kills people but doesn't really take pleasure in it like regular villains do.

And just because he's a killer doesn't necessarily make him evil. (Anti-)heroes like James Bond, the Punisher, Indiana Jones, the Shadow, the Bride (Kill Bill) and Obi-Wan Kenobi do the same thing!

[Donald Stone]

The Operative believed in building the perfect world, and he did evil so that that world could be built. He knew he was doing evil, and as such had no place in the world he was fighting for, but he did it because he believed in it.

[Chuckg]

He deliberately massacred innocent children to advance his objectives. The fact that he did so for true belief in a cause, as opposed to selfish gain, does /not/ absolve him from evil -- it merely makes him the 'True Believer' type of evil fanatic, not the 'Conscienceless Bastard' type of evil bandit.

[Donald Stone]

He deliberately massacred innocent children to advance his objectives. The fact that he did so for true belief in a cause, as opposed to selfish gain, does /not/ absolve him from evil -- it merely makes him the 'True Believer' type of evil fanatic, not the 'Conscienceless Bastard' type of evil bandit.Never said he wasn't evil, just explained what he did and why.

Course, by the end of the movie I got the distinct impression the guy was one stay in the abbey away from becoming Shepard Book.

[Magneto_X]

Course, by the end of the movie I got the distinct impression the guy was one stay in the abbey away from becoming Shepard Book.

That's what made me think Book was a former Operative.

[Donald Stone]

That's what made me think Book was a former Operative.Thats my pet theory.

[Grant]

That's what made me think Book was a former Operative.

We probably won't be finding that out anytime soon.

[cosmicspidey]

That's what made me think Book was a former Operative.

Maybe Book trained Early (the bounty hunter from Objects in Space), which is why Early said Book wasn't a preacher... That's a very interesting theory (yours, not mine).

[StoneGold]

Firefly isn't really a world of good and evil. This isn't Star Wars, with clearly delinieated battle lines. Keep in mind, Mal and his crew are pirates, smugglers, bank robbers, murderers, etc. It may have been a totally badass move, but kicking the bounty hunter into the engine when he did can't really get chalked up to a self-defense plea. Hell, even when Han did shoot Greedo first, he had more justification than Mal.

So is the Operative evil? Possilbly. But really, no more so than the Serenity crew.

[Magneto_X]

Maybe Book trained Early (the bounty hunter from Objects in Space), which is why Early said Book wasn't a preacher... That's a very interesting theory (yours, not mine).

Perhaps but that doesn't explain his link to the Alliance. And his influence with said Alliance to allow them to heal his wounds and let the Serenity go no questions asked just with his identication card.

[Donald Stone]

Maybe Book trained Early (the bounty hunter from Objects in Space), which is why Early said Book wasn't a preacher... That's a very interesting theory (yours, not mine).According to Joss, Early was incredibly intuitive. He wasn't psychic like river, but he had a way of knowing people very well. Thats why he knew Book wasn't a shepard.

[Chuckg]

I don't think the Operative is going to become a Shepherd.

Book found something new to live for. The Operative didn't. Remember his exit line? "There is nothing left to see?"

That was the line, and the expression, and the tone of voice, of a ronin who's going to go out and fall on his sword as soon as the immediate business his done. The Operative found out his entire faith was a lie... and he had nothing except that faith. And unlike Shepherd Book, he didn't seem flexible enough to find a new one.

[Arune Singh]

Firefly isn't really a world of good and evil. This isn't Star Wars, with clearly delinieated battle lines. Keep in mind, Mal and his crew are pirates, smugglers, bank robbers, murderers, etc. It may have been a totally badass move, but kicking the bounty hunter into the engine when he did can't really get chalked up to a self-defense plea. Hell, even when Han did shoot Greedo first, he had more justification than Mal.

So is the Operative evil? Possilbly. But really, no more so than the Serenity crew.

Did Mal's crew ever murder anyone pre-this movie but post-war? I can't remember, but they never struck me as killers. Except Jayne.

[Magneto_X]

Did Mal's crew ever murder anyone pre-this movie but post-war? I can't remember, but they never struck me as killers. Except Jayne.

Mal has, at least once.

He kicked an ex-client's goon in a activated turbine (the goon said he wasn't going to stop hunting them down!).

Crow was his name, IIRC.

[Grant]

Did Mal's crew ever murder anyone pre-this movie but post-war? I can't remember, but they never struck me as killers. Except Jayne.

The pilot episode Mal shot that Initiative agent who was after River in the face without hesitation (he returned in the comic). The next episode Trainjob he tossed a henchman who threatened to go after him into Serenity's turbine. Fox wanted to tone down Mal over the course of the series but he always was willing quick in the trigger.

In the comic Simon and Book killed the blue handed scientists.

[VCreed32]

And let's not forget that was Zangief/Lobo that he kicked too.

[sehthan]

He kicked an ex-client's goon in a activated turbine (the goon said he wasn't going to stop hunting them down!).

See, it's that bit at the end that makes it a bit iffy. When henchy there swore to come back looking for trouble, killing him became justifiable in Mal's thinking as self-defense. Mal gave him a chance to walk away, the guy said he wasn't gonna. So it wasn't murder in Mal's mind, but your mileage may vary.

The less-defenisible kill that always comes to my mind is at the end of Our Mrs. Reynolds, when Jayne spaces the crew of the already-disarmed net array, just 'cause.

[Tobias March]

Joss is a big Shakespeare nut, so when I head the Operative's line "What I do is evil, I have no illusions about that, but it must be done", I was reminded of Iago or Don John the Bastard, who both justify and rationalise their villainy thusly - I am a villain, but I am honest about being a villain and freely admit to being same, so being a villain is the right thing for me to be. "I know my own worth" and all that.

Plus this ties back into the whole 'what is civilized', idea that is continually referred to throughout the film.

[Sam]

The less-defenisible kill that always comes to my mind is at the end of Our Mrs. Reynolds, when Jayne spaces the crew of the already-disarmed net array, just 'cause.

Well, yeah, the great thing about Jayne's role in the cast is that he's an unrepentant thug bastard. One of my favorite bits of dialogue in the movie is Jayne trying to figure out why the Reavers get off on killing so much, as opposed to Jayne, who'll kill someone "in a fair fight. Or if it looks like they might give me a fair fight. Or for money." Hell, he was going to cap River.

Or the bit in the pilot where his captive breaks under threat of torture before Jayne can actually torture him, to his great disappointment. "Damn it! I was gonna get me an ear!"

Mal is a saint compared to Jayne. He's more pragmatic than anything else. That's what I always liked about Mal -- he eschews all the stupid acts and choices that heroes in TV shows and movies usually go for. Oh, the scary psychopath is vowing to track me down and kill me for the rest of his days? Well, that's enough of him. That's the interesting thing about Mal, the constant tension between his sense of ethics and his need to keep himself and his crew alive.

As to the Operative: Yeah, he's evil. Even he admits he's evil, and that there's no place for a monster like him in the perfect world he hopes to build. It's just that if making a perfect world means damning himself, as far as he's concerned that's a small price to pay.

[Magneto_X]

And let's not forget that was Zangief/Lobo that he kicked too.

That was Crow. The guy he kicked into the engine during "Train Job".

[VCreed32]

Talking about the actor.

[Sandoz]

So is the Operative evil? Possilbly. But really, no more so than the Serenity crew.
I disagree, simply based on the "I don't murder children/Well, I do" exchange. Mal may be a pirate, a smuggler, and a killer, but he has a moral compass that prevents him from, say, killing dozens of innocents for the sole purpose intimidating someone. Mal and the Operative may share some similarities, but one is definitely more evil than the other.

[Arune Singh]

I disagree, simply based on the "I don't murder children/Well, I do" exchange. Mal may be a pirate, a smuggler, and a killer, but he has a moral compass that prevents him from, say, killing dozens of innocents for the sole purpose intimidating someone. Mal and the Operative may share some similarities, but one is definitely more evil than the other.

The Operative strikes me as a Machivellian, with an ends justifying the means rationale, while Mal just seems pragmatic.

[StoneGold]

I disagree, simply based on the "I don't murder children/Well, I do" exchange. Mal may be a pirate, a smuggler, and a killer, but he has a moral compass that prevents him from, say, killing dozens of innocents for the sole purpose intimidating someone. Mal and the Operative may share some similarities, but one is definitely more evil than the other.
No, Mal will just kill one person for the sole purpose of intimidating someone. Because killing Crow was as much about sending a message to his boss as it was anything else. And let's face it, however you look at it, he kicked an unarmed, beaten man into an engine. There was no self-defense about it. I can't think of any law that provides for "well, he might try to kill me later, so I better kill him now, while I've got the drop on him." Not even in the future. That's cold-blooded murder however you want to look at it.

Now, I'm not saying Mal and the crew are as the Operative. But if you're going to take a hard, black and white view of things, they're still fairly evil.

[VCreed32]

While I do partially agree with it not exactly being self-defense, there was no "might" try to kill later.

[Mr. Croup]

No, Mal will just kill one person for the sole purpose of intimidating someone. Because killing Crow was as much about sending a message to his boss as it was anything else. And let's face it, however you look at it, he kicked an unarmed, beaten man into an engine. There was no self-defense about it. I can't think of any law that provides for "well, he might try to kill me later, so I better kill him now, while I've got the drop on him." Not even in the future. That's cold-blooded murder however you want to look at it.

Now, I'm not saying Mal and the crew are as the Operative. But if you're going to take a hard, black and white view of things, they're still fairly evil.

He gave the guy a chance, and the henchman said he would hunt Mal & co. all over the 'verse. Mal probably saw it as protecting his "family".

[cosmicspidey]

The crew killed a whole lot of people in War Stories. Hell, they killed just about everyone except for Niska.

[Sam]

No, Mal will just kill one person for the sole purpose of intimidating someone. Because killing Crow was as much about sending a message to his boss as it was anything else. And let's face it, however you look at it, he kicked an unarmed, beaten man into an engine.

An unarmed, beaten man who was a trained murderer and homicidal psychotic sadist who had just outright told Mal that he was going to track him down and kill him.

Kicking him into the engine was, to my eyes, a refreshing and completely surprising bit of common sense from a TV character.

There was no self-defense about it. I can't think of any law that provides for "well, he might try to kill me later, so I better kill him now, while I've got the drop on him." Not even in the future. That's cold-blooded murder however you want to look at it.

Actually, that's not strictly true. You can successfully argue self-defence if you have a reasonable cause to believe that the person you killed really does intend to murder you. Battered wives who kill their husbands use that defense from time to time.

[BoosterBronze]

Was I the only one confused for a few minutes, thinking the Operative was Early?

I hadn't seen the Early episode in like, a year and a half, and didn't have a solid picture of Early in my mind. Then there was another black super-fighter, creepily soft spoken with a sword. (Didn't Early have a sword too? I dont recall) I realized he wasn't Early within a few minutes, but I'm wondering if I was the only one who had this issue?

[Shellhead]

Was I the only one confused for a few minutes, thinking the Operative was Early?

I hadn't seen the Early episode in like, a year and a half, and didn't have a solid picture of Early in my mind. Then there was another black super-fighter, creepily soft spoken with a sword. (Didn't Early have a sword too? I dont recall) I realized he wasn't Early within a few minutes, but I'm wondering if I was the only one who had this issue?

No, I leaned over and asked a friend that same question during that first Operative scene. I knew it wasn't the same actor, but I wondered if it was supposed to be the same character played by a different actor. After about a minute, I was positive that the Operative wasn't Early, because he was too calm and focused, where Early was a little jittery and tended to go off on odd tangents.

[MatthewC]

Was anyone else a little confused as to why the Operative killed the chief scientist there at the beginning?

I mean, yeah the guy screwed up, but killing him didn't fix anything. It didn't get them River back. It didn't cover up any secrets, since the guy was pretty obviously telling the truth about not having any idea what River might have picked up from mindreading. All it did was deprive the "telepathic assassin project" of its head.

Perhaps the order to kill the guy came down from on-high?

[BoosterBronze]

No, I leaned over and asked a friend that same question during that first Operative scene. I knew it wasn't the same actor, but I wondered if it was supposed to be the same character played by a different actor. After about a minute, I was positive that the Operative wasn't Early, because he was too calm and focused, where Early was a little jittery and tended to go off on odd tangents.

Good to hear. For a minute, I thought I was just racist. :)

[Chuckg]

Was anyone else a little confused as to why the Operative killed the chief scientist there at the beginning?

Not really. The guy screwed up massively, and his death would set an example for the rest of the project.

You will notice that the Operative deliberately left a witness to that conversation /alive/.

[StoneGold]

An unarmed, beaten man who was a trained murderer and homicidal psychotic sadist who had just outright told Mal that he was going to track him down and kill him.

Kicking him into the engine was, to my eyes, a refreshing and completely surprising bit of common sense from a TV character.


Try doing it in real life. See how much prison time you get.

[Arune Singh]

Good to hear. For a minute, I thought I was just racist. :)

Nah. That's not racist. Now if you thought he looked like Book, I would have chuckled and ridiculed you, but there's no inherently bad motivation behind it.

[MatthewC]

Try doing it in real life. See how much prison time you get.

I thought we were talking about good and evil, not legal and illegal.

It was not practical for Mal to seek the protection of the law. (Admittedly in part because of his own choice to be a criminal.) If he cannot seek protection from the law, then he must protect himself and his family when someone threatens to kill them.

And let's be clear, he wasn't attempting to "send a message" by doing so. he was just being quicker on the draw.

[boolean]

An unarmed, beaten man who was a trained murderer and homicidal psychotic sadist who had just outright told Mal that he was going to track him down and kill him.

Kicking him into the engine was, to my eyes, a refreshing and completely surprising bit of common sense from a TV character.


Personally, kicking him into the engine made little sense.

Killing him? Fine. Absolutely no problem with that.

But I wouldn't take the chance of damaging the engine like that.

[Shellhead]

Personally, kicking him into the engine made little sense.

Killing him? Fine. Absolutely no problem with that.

But I wouldn't take the chance of damaging the engine like that.

Good point. Maybe Mal has seen it done before, without any engine damage. He seems like he saw too much during the war.

[G. Wayne]

only seen the movie the other night, never saw the show. (which will change within a matter of days.)

the operative is evil. yeah he admitted it, but the way i see it, he was hiding behind "i don't question" and "it'll all work out in the end" as an excuse for his actions. kind of like a soldier who claims he was only following orders.

and about the pax revelation. if the operative was really as devoted as he's supposed to be, miranda *could* be seen as a setback, little more. trial and error trying to attain paradise.

[kalorama]

the operative is evil. yeah he admitted it, but the way i see it, he was hiding behind "i don't question" and "it'll all work out in the end" as an excuse for his actions. kind of like a soldier who claims he was only following orders.

I don't see that. Just the opposite, in fact. He knew and fully accepted the reality of who he was and what he did. He just refused to apologize for it.

[Sam]

Try doing it in real life. See how much prison time you get.

As I just mentioned, people in the real world have in fact defended similar actions -- successfully -- as self defense. According to our legal system, it counts as self-defense if there is clear, reasonable cause to believe they intend to kill you.

Naturally, it's very tough to prove. But in the spirit of the law, that was self-defense.

(Of course, beyond that, there's a big difference between what's legal and what's moral.)

[Royal]

The Operative was Samurai.

[StoneGold]

As I just mentioned, people in the real world have in fact defended similar actions -- successfully -- as self defense. According to our legal system, it counts as self-defense if there is clear, reasonable cause to believe they intend to kill you.

Naturally, it's very tough to prove. But in the spirit of the law, that was self-defense.

(Of course, beyond that, there's a big difference between what's legal and what's moral.)
Care to cite case evidence? Where someone killed someone else they had disarmed and outnumbered and they got off because they were talking big?

[sehthan]

and about the pax revelation. if the operative was really as devoted as he's supposed to be, miranda *could* be seen as a setback, little more. trial and error trying to attain paradise.


I think that wasn't his idea of paradise. Whatever else he may have been, the Operative was clearly an idealist. He claimed he wanted to help bulid a world where men like him wouldn't be necessary. Instead, he was presented with evidence that he was helping to build a world where men like him just secretly controlled everyone. Which apparently violated his sense of purpose/justice/whatever. He may have believed the ends justify the means, but it turns out he didn't believe in the ends.

[Magneto_X]

Care to cite case evidence? Where someone killed someone else they had disarmed and outnumbered and they got off because they were talking big?

Florida just got a new law that lets natives kill anybody they deem a threat. Yay! :(