Best example of Batman's jobber aura...

[Guts/Batman]

Is it Darkseid jobbing to Batman in S/B #14. It can't get much higher than that...Can it?

Has the Spectre ever jobbed to Batman before?

[Chad G.]

To all readers, this thread seems to be a discussion from a related thread thats had seeming ly taken on a life of its own.

Here the gist of it: On one side, you have people who believe that everything is handed to Batman by a set of incompetent writers like Loeb and Morrison who have deemed at some poin that Batman is God. On the other side, you have individuals who just think Batman is a great character that brings s dynamic to the DCU through wonderful art and drawing. Now, as far as this:

Is it Darkseid jobbing to Batman in S/B #14. It can't get much higher than that...Can it?

Has the Spectre ever jobbed to Batman before?

Picture you're Darksied(we can only wish). And you have this pathetic mortal, who has armed enough Hellspores to rip Apokilps in half. You beat the piss out of him, he still won't disarm them, and stares you right in the eye. What do you do. You tell him he has more balls that Superman who is having a throwdown in the firepit, that's what you do.

Come on. We all know that you have to have "jobbing". You've said it yourself:

As much as we hate PIS/CIS in stories, I think every comic book fan realizes it is a necessary part of comics.

[Sean Whitmore]

Has the Spectre ever jobbed to Batman before?


Well, not "jobbed", per se (and I'm dying to know the origins of that phrase), but in Batman #541, he chastised Spectre for killing a bunch of gangsters. Spectre became indignant, grew about 50 feet and threatened to judge Batman, and Bats basically told him to piss off. And he DID.


SEAN

[Guts/Batman]

Actually, it is and it isn't. His jobber aura is pretty huge.

Some people don't believe he has a jobber aura, and some people do. If I posted this on Rumbles (where it would be promptly moved here), I think I would find that I would be in the majority.

I do think he has a fairly massive jobber aura. That allows him to defeat Darkseid and Superman and WW, etc.

Can anyone think of any better example of Batman's jobber aura in effect.

[FearsomeFlyingGlove]

I don't remember it precisely, but didn't the Hulk job to Batman in the Marvel/DC Treasury Edition waaaaay back when?

[Chad G.]

Well, not "jobbed", per se (and I'm dying to know the origins of that phrase), but in Batman #541, he chastised Spectre for killing a bunch of gangsters. Spectre became indignant, grew about 50 feet and threatened to judge Batman, and Bats basically told him to piss off. And he DID.


SEAN

Wow, great recall. I didn't remember that. You know, I am one of the biggest Bats fans on the planet. And even I wonder about the logic of telling God's own wrathful spirit to get lost. I don't know whether that says alot about Batman, or tells us alot about the Spectre at that time.

Awesome example though.

[Chad G.]

(and I'm dying to know the origins of that phrase)


SEAN

I was too. This is probaly the best one as far as being relatable to what we are talking about: "in professional wrestling, a wrestler who loses in order to make another wrestler look good; also called jobber"

Hope that helped. :D

[Guts/Batman]

Picture you're Darksied(we can only wish). And you have this pathetic mortal, who has armed enough Hellspores to rip Apokilps in half. You beat the piss out of him, he still won't disarm them, and stares you right in the eye. What do you do. You tell him he has more balls that Superman who is having a throwdown in the firepit, that's what you do.

Come on. We all know that you have to have "jobbing". You've said it yourself:

Darkseid has that angle covered already. Darkseid is unbeatable. It is Jobberseid that doesn't and isn't unbeatable.

I'm not saying that Morrison/Loeb are incompetent by any stretch of the imagination (though that looks like what I am saying). But both understand that Batman needs plot devices to defeat extremely powerful foes..and so they give it to him and he takes them down.

That still falls under PIS/jobber aura.

Hell, he needs jobber aura to explain getting two hits on Cassandra Cain, in her own book...

I understand what I said, but Darkseid should be Jobber-free. Darkseid jobbing to Batman is where I draw the line of disbelief.

Also, The Spectre "jobbing" to Batman is also where I draw the line.

I can see where Superman/WW job to Batman because of their lines in DCU.

I think he is a great character as well. Not because of his fighting prowess, but because of his character...

Even the most staunch Batman fan should realize that without plot devices Batman should not legitimately hang in their with Superman, WW, Flash, etc.

[Sean Whitmore]

I don't remember it precisely, but didn't the Hulk job to Batman in the Marvel/DC Treasury Edition waaaaay back when?


Oh yeah, that was a little hard to swallow. Batman breaks open a gas capsule, and when Hulk holds his breath, Batman kicks him in the stomach to get him to open his mouth. :D


SEAN

[Sean Whitmore]

I was too. This is probaly the best one as far as being relatable to what we are talking about: "in professional wrestling, a wrestler who loses in order to make another wrestler look good; also called jobber"

Hope that helped. :D


Yes, indeedy it does. Thanks. :)


SEAN

[Chad G.]

Darkseid has that angle covered already. Darkseid is unbeatable. It is Jobberseid that doesn't and isn't unbeatable.

I'm not saying that Morrison/Loeb are incompetent by any stretch of the imagination (though that looks like what I am saying). But both understand that Batman needs plot devices to defeat extremely powerful foes..and so they give it to him and he takes them down.

That still falls under PIS/jobber aura.

Hell, he needs jobber aura to explain getting two hits on Cassandra Cain, in her own book...

I understand what I said, but Darkseid should be Jobber-free. Darkseid jobbing to Batman is where I draw the line of disbelief.

Also, The Spectre "jobbing" to Batman is also where I draw the line.

I can see where Superman/WW job to Batman because of their lines in DCU.

I think he is a great character as well. Not because of his fighting prowess, but because of his character...

Even the most staunch Batman fan should realize that without plot devices Batman should not legitimately hang in their with Superman, WW, Flash, etc.

Fair enough. I believe we each see the others point.

Well done.

[palaeomerus]

The thing is...Darkseid is Darkseid. He is the embodiment of an evil totalitarian impulse that imposes an eternal megalomaniacal order upon the universe. He is the end of free will and hope. He's not just space dictator # 5 like Despero or Mongul. He's this abomination at the end of time that cajoles and coerces whole worlds to destroy themselves just to glorify him. He is supremely ruthless. If Superman hits him then he retaliates by ordering the entire populations of five subject worlds to slit their own throats and THEY DO IT and then he has his sad down trodden hunger dogs boom tube all the corpses to Earth. His whole purpose is to reduce everything there is to a human face being stamped on by his boot for all time.

Batman should definitely be able to fight effectively against Darkseid's human minions on earth (especially besides the New Gods). Even Dave Lincoln and Dan "Terrible" Turpin were able to do that. But Batman is NOT a New God. He is not an embodiment of some cosmic positive principle that dwells within sentient beings. He is not part of the cosmic battle between life and anti-life. He ain't ready for that kind of stuff. Batman ought to be able to survive on apokalips for as long as Himon or one of his hides him. Otherwise he's running back to earth with "hyper-mega-gravitational impact" explosives (that might even be able to kil Superman) because Granny tore out every part of mind except a desire to serve Darkseid (and discarded it!) And the only way he'd ever recover is with a Motherbox linking him to the source and helping his burned out parts to regrow.

Batman has a plane and a sub. The New God's have cruise missles that can cross the universe and genetically grown giants and use stuff like suns and planet sized impactors for weapons. They can reach almost every part of the universe except for the Promethean galaxy full of giants the size of star clusters that orbit almost at the end of all matter and energy (that eventually mutated into the "Source Wall.")

Batman=a sort of pinnacle of HUMAN self development.Perhaps one of the best amongst mortals. Darkseid=a cosmic horror too awful for even a sick proto-nazi puppy like ANTON ARCANE to fully understand.

You can temporarily derail one of Darkseid's plots. And you will most probably pay dearly. But only New Gods can defeat Darkseid and THAT'S if humans give them the power to do so by following their philosphy of generosity, gentleness and freedom(which even the people of New Genesis do not follow all that well sometimes)and releasing the hold that the anti-life culture has on the Earth. Even then then it would be kind of lame with Dr.Bedlam and a newly ressurected Desaad being the big meanies.

Overall Batman needs to stay at the Green Arrow/genius gadegteer level of super heroing. Sure he might trip up a space kahn or other from time to time or come up with the key to beating a dangerous cosmic foe but there is no good reason why he should go toe to toe with the shocktroops of Apokalips and win. Unless you think that making HIM look good is worth making Apokalips look like chumpville.

Now if Batman were to be linked to the source or a Lord of Order or something like that sure. Then he's Batman with a sufficient Deus Ex MAchina to shift the heavens (but some escape artist lessons from Scott Free who'd use the circuits in his gauntlet to violate thermo dynamics long enough for him to vibrate through the titanium floor at the last possible second...Meh. That doesn't work for me. )

[Chad G.]

Does anyone else think you can say too much and yet still say nothing. ;)

[palaeomerus]

I'm sorry that you have chosen this particularly cheap route to attempt to nullify an argument you disagree with. If you think I've said nothing above then I have to assume that you have some trouble with following prose.

Batman is getting perilously close to Lobo status in terms of his ridiculous win record and LOBO was a joke riff on Wolverine and overly viscious bad ass characters in general. Btaman is like the Hulk back in his "Hulk kills the monster of the week" days.

[Sean Whitmore]

Batman is getting perilously close to Lobo status in terms of his ridiculous win record


Did Lobo ever really win that much? True, he did beat down Superman right out of the starting gate, but after that, he became almost a comic relief character. Guy Gardner fought him to a standstill in JLI, and Vril Dox beat him in L.E.G.I.O.N.. And Superman won every rematch since then.

(I'll not mention the losses to Wolverine and Hitman, as they were both wanks)


SEAN

[palaeomerus]

Lobo basically died, beat up hell, and came back.

[Chad G.]

I'm sorry that you have chosen this particularly cheap route to attempt to nullify an argument you disagree with. If you think I've said nothing above then I have to assume that you have some trouble with following prose.

Batman is getting perilously close to Lobo status in terms of his ridiculous win record and LOBO was a joke riff on Wolverine and overly viscious bad ass characters in general. Btaman is like the Hulk back in his "Hulk kills the monster of the week" days.

Noooo, I just chose not to waste time reading a post when it prattles on uselessly attempting to make some grandiose point by pulling out the helpful Websters Dictionary and Thesaurus when simple statements make a point just as well as overblown dramatic displays.

And when your smoke finally clears, a point still hasn't been made. THAT is not how I chose to sqaunder away my evenings ol' chap.

[Sean Whitmore]

Lobo basically died, beat up hell, and came back.


Oh, yeah...but that was some goofy Alan Grant Hell. I'd like to see him pull that crap in the Hell from Lucifer or Hellblazer. :)


SEAN

[Guts/Batman]

Does anyone else think you can say too much and yet still say nothing. ;)

No, that was freaking brilliant.

It encapsulates everything I have ever thought of Darkseid and why that whole scene/storyline was complete bullshit.

[Sean Whitmore]

It encapsulates everything I have ever thought of Darkseid and why that whole scene/storyline was complete bullshit.


You do have to accept, however, that Post-Crisis Darkseid has been waaaaay depowered. Doomsday almost killed him. Superman fought him to a standstill several times, and decisively defeated him shortly after OWAW.

But I do agree with you that he was treated EXTRA shabbily in that storyline. At least Loeb didn't have Superman win with the patented "one punch" technique used on Doomsday (and on Shiva by Batman). :)


SEAN

[Guts/Batman]

You do have to accept, however, that Post-Crisis Darkseid has been waaaaay depowered. Doomsday almost killed him. Superman fought him to a standstill several times, and decisively defeated him shortly after OWAW.

But I do agree with you that he was treated EXTRA shabbily in that storyline. At least Loeb didn't have Superman win with the patented "one punch" technique used on Doomsday (and on Shiva by Batman). :)


SEAN

Yes, I do have to accept it. As hard as I try to convince myself it didn't happen, it did happen and I do have to live with it.

And you know what sucks harder, Loeb made Commie Superman and Terry canon. WTF?!?

Some people may like that and all but, can't we keep DCAU in DCAU and what's in Elseworlds in Elseworlds. Elseworlds is also a concept that is being brought into Infinite Crisis, so we prohbably won't know what is an Elseworld and what is not an Elseworld until after IC.

Whuch sucks.

That still tees me off, that the only time Bats wins solo against Shiva is in typical Loeb jobber fashion in S/B.

And yes, I have to accept that as well.

[Forsaken_One]

The origin of the word "jobber" comes from Pro Wrestling as I understand it. Doing a job or jobbing meant going down for the count not because of actually being beaten but because that's how the orginization (WWF/WWE/Whatever) wanted it to go for the purposes of their drama. Then it was adopted into speaking of a superhero losing due to stupidity rather than pure power or whatnot. I'd imagine it also relates to Boxing and other sports where people take falls but the info I've seen places it with Pro Wrestling.

I have a problem with it being used in the case of comics myself. I mean with a real person you can say they took a fall and didn't actually fight to their fullest. It makes sense, you might have been able to win if you'd fight harder but you instead lost on purpose. Okay.

But we're dealing with fictional characters here, what's written down is in cannon unless DC/Marvel/Whoever says it isn't somehow. So Batman beat Superman at one time. No it's not what would have happened if Superman was using his supreme intellect and knew what was going to happen ahead of time and thought to bring a kryptonite proof suit with him and Batman had a cold but, you know, that's what happened now.

I think the biggest problem is that the people who scream "jobbing" and whatnot tend to assume that [insert character here] not only has their full powers at their disposal and an amazing array of gadgets but also knows exactly when to use them and how and, basically, doesn't make mistakes. It seems to me people who scream that would have done the same after reading that David beat Goliath. I mean come on! Goliath's a freaking Giant and David only had a slingshot! Obviously Goliath should have been wearing a helmet since he was at least moderately intelligent, and plus his skull would be way to thick to be hurt by one little rock from a freaking slingshot! :rolleyes:

Okay, end rant.

[Sean Whitmore]

I have a problem with it being used in the case of comics myself....

But we're dealing with fictional characters here, what's written down is in cannon unless DC/Marvel/Whoever says it isn't somehow. So Batman beat Superman at one time. No it's not what would have happened if Superman was using his supreme intellect and knew what was going to happen ahead of time and thought to bring a kryptonite proof suit with him and Batman had a cold but, you know, that's what happened now.


I understand what you mean, and I agree that the term shouldn't be thrown around quite so much.

But I do think there are times when a writer will have Character A lose to Character B simply because he doesn't like Character A, or because he doesn't fully understand Character A, or because he's trying to artifically inflate the coolness of Character B.

Just as an example, the way Garth Ennis had his (basically) human characters Punisher and Hitman wipe the floor with Wolverine and Lobo, respectively. It seemed more like a commentary on how silly super characters are, and how a badass dude with a gun can make them look like fools.


SEAN

[Cowlander]

Jobbing did start from wrestling. But its from jobber the guy you hire to lose week end and week out. Its the guy who would always fight the star and lose cuzz that his job. Pre IC Dr. Light was that type they show up get whooped on for laughs or rep and that it.

On topic, its pretty easy to say anyone with percieved or real super speed in whatever fashion is jobbing to bats. Especially with the whole beat bats once then the next time he owns them for free. Two for one on sundays, Bats defintely needs to stay street level. But til peeps stop writing him as being #1 in everything this wont happen.

[Lester C.]

The more I think about it the more I realize that Batman is the Triple H of comic books. Hell characters from other universe job to him as I think he took down the incredible hulk once.

[Dr. Drake Ramoray]

To be fair, Batman did have Barda's Mother Box on him when he faced down Darkseid. And he knew Darkseid could kill him easily, That's why he chose the Hellspore gambit. Darkseid didn't care to call the bluff is what happened.
Hence his "Well played" to Batman.

And just how big a role (if any) is Darkseid playing in the current crisis? Has he been seen since Superman impaled him on the Source Wall? Outside of Clark's Max-induced hallucination, I mean.

[Guts/Batman]

Like I said, Darkseid has that option that Batman tried in S/B #13 covered. Post-Crisis Jobberseid doesn't.

[cactusmaac]

Yes, I do have to accept it. As hard as I try to convince myself it didn't happen, it did happen and I do have to live with it.

And you know what sucks harder, Loeb made Commie Superman and Terry canon. WTF?!?

Some people may like that and all but, can't we keep DCAU in DCAU and what's in Elseworlds in Elseworlds. Elseworlds is also a concept that is being brought into Infinite Crisis, so we prohbably won't know what is an Elseworld and what is not an Elseworld until after IC.


Well, thanks to Hypertime, every story that was published by DC Comics IS canon.

Besides Terry already appeared in the DC 1 Million 80-pg Giant, so go blame Grant Morrison. :)

[Guts/Batman]

Well, thanks to Hypertime, every story that was published by DC Comics IS canon.

Besides Terry already appeared in the DC 1 Million 80-pg Giant, so go blame Grant Morrison. :)

Forgot about that...

So many things to remember.

[foxfire]

Does anyone else think you can say too much and yet still say nothing. ;)

Um yeah it seems to me everything he said made perfect sense, even if you don't like the language he said it in.

[da noble savage]

well to be fair it's not like he physically beat darkised he just out smarted him what's wrong with that why can't darksied make mistakes.

[The Blue Devil]

Because he's a friggin GOD. Hell, the fact that he IS Darksied should have made Batman back down from the fightbefore it began!

[Guts/Batman]

well to be fair it's not like he physically beat darkised he just out smarted him what's wrong with that why can't darksied make mistakes.

Darkseid PC never lost at anything.

The Crisis never affected New Genisis. Only bad writing/depowering turned him into a Superman enemy that jobbed to Superman.

[Kid Kamikaze10]

I miss PC Darkseid. :(

[Alan2099]

I can't see why darkseid didn't just Omega Effect Batman into nonexistance there. Batman threatning Darkseid like that is about like me threatneing The Flash with a bomb strapped to my chest.

[Forsaken_One]

I can't see why darkseid didn't just Omega Effect Batman into nonexistance there. Batman threatning Darkseid like that is about like me threatneing The Flash with a bomb strapped to my chest.
No, it's more like you threatening Flash with the knowledge that only you can disarm the 300 nukes placed in various major cities around the world set to go off in a less than 30 seconds. So yes, Darkseid could have killed Batman. Easily. The idea was that killing Batman wouldn't have done jack to save his world from being engulfed in flames.

[palaeomerus]

I don't even like the idea of there being hellbores on Apokalips anyway. They make a better weapon than a construction tool.

If they need another fire pit on Apokalips then they'll haul in a billion broken slaves through the boom tubes and toss some hunger dogs in to fill out the ranks and make them all dig it out with their hands! And then they'll make the survivors put up some huge stone Darkseid statues and THEN have them throw themselves into the flames to demonstrate how Darkseid and Anti-life can "protect"them from the pain and uncertainty of their own free will.

[Chad G.]

No, it's more like you threatening Flash with the knowledge that only you can disarm the 300 nukes placed in various major cities around the world set to go off in a less than 30 seconds. So yes, Darkseid could have killed Batman. Easily. The idea was that killing Batman wouldn't have done jack to save his world from being engulfed in flames.

Thats dead on point. I am in NO way trying to make the point that Batman could take on Darkseid head on like he could Supes. Darkseid has no weakness like Superman does to Kryptonite. Batman knew he had to have a picture perfect plan going into that confrontation or he simply would have gotten his freaking head ripped off. He is NOT a physical match for Darkseid. Now mentally, thats a whole different ballgame. I don't know of anyone short of Slade is Bats tactical equal. Darkseid flat out tells him that he could roast him with a taste of the Omega Effect, and Batman calls him out and flat out tells him that wouldn't disarm the bombs.

WELL PLAYED.

Thats sums it up. I think Darkseid loves a challenge, and admits that Supes or WW wouldn't have had the cojones to pull that stunt off. Keep in mind that even when he said that he would not come after Kara, I have no doubt that he wasn't already plotting what he was going to do in revenge.

Now as to this:

Because he's a friggin GOD. Hell, the fact that he IS Darksied should have made Batman back down from the fightbefore it began!

Really. I would hope a "God" would see the whole scenario ahead of time and plan ahead. Would have been waiting on Batman himself in the armory and pasted him before he could have armed the Hellspores. I would have hoped a "God" would have noticed that his Omega Effect looked a little odd vaporizing Kara and would have seen that it was actually her being teleported away.

Darkseid PC never lost at anything.


But it is after the Crisis. Has been for a while. Time is not going to turn back. And event though Darkseid has been severly powered down, thats life, and we have to deal with it. I don't see any other option. And Darkseid actually seems to lose rather often. Remember him getting his oversized noggin fried by the Atom in the Rock of Ages arc.

Yeah folks, the Atom cooked Darkseid.

I had an issue with that.

[palaeomerus]

Really. I would hope a "God" would see the whole scenario ahead of time and plan ahead. Would have been waiting on Batman himself in the armory and pasted him before he could have armed the Hellspores. I would have hoped a "God" would have noticed that his Omega Effect looked a little odd vaporizing Kara and would have seen that it was actually her being teleported away.

Oddly that objection supports the theory that jobbery was at work in Superman Batman more than it weakens it.

[Chad G.]

Oddly that objection supports the theory that jobbery was at work in Superman Batman more than it weakens it.

Really? I think it goes more toward evidence that Darkseid gets a little more credit than he deserves.

[Sean Whitmore]

Really? I think it goes more toward evidence that Darkseid gets a little more credit than he deserves.



That's kinda giving one writer's take more weight then all the writer's who preceeded him.

If I were to go by Jeph Loeb's interpretation, both Shiva and Doomsday are easy, one-hit knockouts. Thus, all the previous books that showed them as badasses seem to have been overestimating their abilities, instead of Loeb underestimating them.


SEAN

[Chad G.]

But we're dealing with fictional characters here, what's written down is in cannon unless DC/Marvel/Whoever says it isn't somehow. So Batman beat Superman at one time. No it's not what would have happened if Superman was using his supreme intellect and knew what was going to happen ahead of time and thought to bring a kryptonite proof suit with him and Batman had a cold but, you know, that's what happened now.

I think the biggest problem is that the people who scream "jobbing" and whatnot tend to assume that [insert character here] not only has their full powers at their disposal and an amazing array of gadgets but also knows exactly when to use them and how and, basically, doesn't make mistakes. It seems to me people who scream that would have done the same after reading that David beat Goliath. I mean come on! Goliath's a freaking Giant and David only had a slingshot! Obviously Goliath should have been wearing a helmet since he was at least moderately intelligent, and plus his skull would be way to thick to be hurt by one little rock from a freaking slingshot! :rolleyes:

Okay, end rant.

I agree with you. But let me go just a little bit farther. I think that the "jobbing" term is little more than an excuse when used in connection with comics. You hit it right on the head when you said "fictional characters". To me, screaming that someone is getting "jobbed" too much is little more than an excuse for when a character someone loves gets his tail handed to him by a character they don't, or someone simply doesn't like the outcome of a confrontation. Somedau maybe if we write somehting read by others, people will call us "jobber" writers too.

But I think you made a great point.

[Chad G.]

That's kinda giving one writer's take more weight then all the writer's who preceeded him.

If I were to go by Jeph Loeb's interpretation, both Shiva and Doomsday are easy, one-hit knockouts. Thus, all the previous books that showed them as badasses seem to have been overestimating their abilities, instead of Loeb underestimating them.


SEAN

Thats very true. Loeb has an inate ability to script in the one hit "knock out", doesn't he. I still think the worst is from Our Worlds at War, when Imperiex get leveled like it was sooooo easy, after mauling most of the DCU. But it makes you wonder what goes through Loebs head sometimes. I love his work, but question a few of the directions he goes in.

[Babylon23]

I have to agree with all of the pro-Darksied arguments.

I find it best to just ignore most of the post-Crisis Darkseid stories. In his original incarnation, Darkseid was a master strategist almost without equal. He is the originator of the Pact, afterall. This guy used to think years, if not decades, in advance.

Another post-Crisis problem is that Darkseid almost never sullied his own hands with tasks as menial as hand-to-hand combat with mortals. If you look at the original 4th World stories, he almost never has a fight with anyone. That's what minions are for.

I don't think this is necessarily just a Batman thing though. Darkseid seems to job to everybody these days, as do his minions.

As far as Batman is concerned, I think there is a definite belief amongst some writers and fans that he should never lose to anybody. I'm sure everybody remembers the arguments that began when Hal Jordan punched him.

[Forsaken_One]

As far as Batman is concerned, I think there is a definite belief amongst some writers and fans that he should never lose to anybody. I'm sure everybody remembers the arguments that began when Hal Jordan punched him.
See that's my (and apparently Omega's) point. The people who screamed over Batman "jobbing" to Hal Jordan there are the same kind of people that scream over another random character being taken down by Batman. The issue isn't really "Batman shouldn't have been able to do that" or "Hal Jordan shouldn't have been able to do that." It's "I like this character more than this other character so I'm going to scream that it couldn't happen" more than any actual feelings.

(Which is also the problem with the Rubles board, that barring an obvious match-up like Lucifer versus Ambush Bug it's really just people who like character X arguing that he would beat character Y and visa versa. All the blathering about various comic books showing this or that or pre or post crisis or different authors or whatever just ends up being excuses to say that they like this character more.)

The problem with a "Jobber's aura" is that for that to be in effect there has to be a measurable rating of various super heros. Marvel might do that on occasion but DC avoids putting any kind of specific limitations on their characters, so Superman's strength, speed, or whatever isn't really measurable any more than Darkseid's is. We can say all we want "Oh, he'd never be able to do that" but in the end we're just saying our opinion should supercede that of the sanctioned writers, which is bull.

And even past fights between two characters hardly mean anything when it comes to power comparisons. Look at Superman. He was powerful before the Crisis, then depowered, then he slowly gained power as he fought various threads, he died, he came back with no power, he gained a lot of power back via transformed kryptonite, he lost some power in fights, he got thrown into the sun as I recall, and so on and so forth.

Bah, I liked it when Superman's powers came from Krypton having 15 times Earth's gravity and Superman only being able to leap 10 stories or so. He should go back to beating up crooked polititians and wife-beaters. :)

[Chad G.]

See that's my (and apparently Omega's) point. The people who screamed over Batman "jobbing" to Hal Jordan there are the same kind of people that scream over another random character being taken down by Batman. The issue isn't really "Batman shouldn't have been able to do that" or "Hal Jordan shouldn't have been able to do that." It's "I like this character more than this other character so I'm going to scream that it couldn't happen" more than any actual feelings.


Well said Forsaken. It took me a minute to pick my jaw off the floor in Green Lantern Rebirth when Hal slugged Bats. I mean I really almost died. But the feeling that I had was completely different from watching Carter get pissed when Batman whacked him. I actually felt no real irritation toward Hal for punching Bruce. And I am a HUGE Batman fan. But in that instance, Bruce was out of line. But some fans went throught the roof.

You hit it right on the head when you said it boils down to nothing more than character like and dislikes. If Character A beats Character C, and you like Character C, then he was obviously just "jobbing" to A to allow him to win. It is just a convient excuse for people to bring out the closet when something happens that they don't like.

[Sean Whitmore]

You hit it right on the head when you said it boils down to nothing more than character like and dislikes. If Character A beats Character C, and you like Character C, then he was obviously just "jobbing" to A to allow him to win.


That's certainly true in some cases (the Hal/Batman debate being a particularly ridiculous one), but I don't think it's a matter of people loving Darkseid and hating Batman.

The scene didn't work for me because it only served to unnecessarily raise Batman's badass quotient, while at the same time make Darkseid look weak and impotent (something that continued throughout the story, even after Batman was gone). It's not even that it couldn't have happened, just that it probably shouldn't have.


SEAN

[Forsaken_One]

I don't think that's so much a "Jobbing aura" around Batman then as it is just bad writing.

[Guts/Batman]

I don't think that's so much a "Jobbing aura" around Batman then as it is just bad writing.

Now that it is put that way, I must agree.

One could probably say that "jobber aura" = bad writing.

I wonder if DC writers have forgotten what Darkseid can do.

I guess I just wish that Darkseid would be competent.

[Viking Bastard]

When has Darkseid been really badarse outside of Kirby?

The Great Darkness Saga (duh)
Justice League International (kinda ironic, that)
Rock of Ages (even if he got taken out by Bats and Atom)
That DnA Reboot Legion arc (even if it was an Old Defeated Darkseid)
The Timm/Dini AniDCU

That's all I can think of where he didn't come of as a puny schmuck.


Man, that JLI story really burned Darkseid's awesomeness forever into my six year old
brain.This huge arse battle on Apokalips and Darkseid basically sticks his head out and
tells them to quit it.

And everybody shits themselves. And goes home.

Awesome.

[Chad G.]

That's certainly true in some cases (the Hal/Batman debate being a particularly ridiculous one), but I don't think it's a matter of people loving Darkseid and hating Batman.

The scene didn't work for me because it only served to unnecessarily raise Batman's badass quotient, while at the same time make Darkseid look weak and impotent (something that continued throughout the story, even after Batman was gone). It's not even that it couldn't have happened, just that it probably shouldn't have.


SEAN


Very true. The story managed to at the same time show his masterful skills by turning Kara, and at the same time show his ineptitude.

[Forsaken_One]

Eh, even his "turning" of Kara seemed more like teen angst amplified than it did real brainwashing. Just look at her costume, she was so a Goth for an issue or two. ;)

[Zeta]

I guess I just wish that Darkseid would be competent.

The problem with that is that a competent Darkseid would be pretty much undefeatable in any way. And that's what annoys me when people complain about him jobbing to people. The character is just too overpowered to appear more than once every 7 years or so, because any defeat of him by any character other than Yaweh can be considered him "jobbing" to someone.

[Guts/Batman]

Eh, even his "turning" of Kara seemed more like teen angst amplified than it did real brainwashing. Just look at her costume, she was so a Goth for an issue or two. ;)

Oddly enough, she looked a hell of alot better in that Goth outfit than she does in her Supergirl outfit.

Agreed on the teen angst amplified. Unless, of course, we find out that the "darkness" that PG sensed in her is that "brainwashing". I wouldn't put that past Loeb/Johns.

[Guts/Batman]

The problem with that is that a competent Darkseid would be pretty much undefeatable in any way. And that's what annoys me when people complain about him jobbing to people. The character is just too overpowered to appear more than once every 7 years or so, because any defeat of him by any character other than Yaweh can be considered him "jobbing" to someone.

But when Superman kicks his ass by punching him?!?

What's wrong with having Darkseid being like he was Pre-Crisis? He is for all intents and purposes the left side of God (I'm exagerating a little). He should be THAT powerful.

Why does he need to get defeated? He is a cosmic force, necesssary for the univrse to be.

[Babylon23]

The problem with that is that a competent Darkseid would be pretty much undefeatable in any way. And that's what annoys me when people complain about him jobbing to people. The character is just too overpowered to appear more than once every 7 years or so, because any defeat of him by any character other than Yaweh can be considered him "jobbing" to someone.

I think there's a big difference between being competant and being unbeatable. Darkseid can be a legitimate threat while still eventually losing.
Look at Legends as a good example. Darkseid uses his considerable power and influence to turn humanity against it's heroes. In the end, he's deafeated, but he still comes across as a legitimately dangerous villain. Personally, I think Darkseid should be used sparingly, so that we he actually appears, it's a big deal. He certainly shouldn't be getting sucker punched by Superman.

Unfortunately, all of the New Gods seem to be getting this treatment. Kalibak was once the godly embodiment of pure rage, able to battle Orion to a standstill on multiple occasions. Now, he's just another grunt for the heroes to beat down on their way to their inevitable battle with Darkseid.

[Joker2503]

(and I'm dying to know the origins of that phrase)

It comes from the world of pro wrestling, going all the way back to wrestling's carnival days. "Jobbing" originates from "jabroni." Basically, a jabroni is the one who loses a scripted match. Over time, "jabroni" was shortened to "jobber." While "doing the job" technically applies any time someone loses, it is specifically used when someone loses a match that the could have/should have. For example, "Andre the Giant jobbed to Hulk Hogan at Wrestlemania 3."

[Joker2503]

I wouldn't say Darkseid jobbed to Batman. He didn't lose a fight, he lost a staring contest. I was in a bar a few weeks ago and a 5'7 guy knocked over a 6'3 guy's beer. 6'3 guy wanted to fight, 5'7 didn't back down. He stood straight up, looked 6'3 guy dead in the eye, and said "Then lets take it outside." 6'3 guy said, "[Screw] it" and walked away. He didn't job, he backed down, because even if he won the fight, his beer would still be all over the counter.

Mother Box or not, could Darkseid have beat Batman into a puddle? Absolutely. Could he have Omega Effect-ed him into nothingness? Certainly. So Darkseid destroys Batman. The Hellspores are still armed and can't be deactivated without Batman. No matter what kind of damage Darkseid could do to Batman, it wouldn't save Apokalips. Batman didn't beat him on skill or power, he beat him on brains and balls.

Batman putting down the Hulk with a kick is jobbing. Darkseid blinking during his staring contest with Batman as he literally hold the entire planet by the balls isn't jobbing.

[Sean Whitmore]

Batman didn't beat him on skill or power, he beat him on brains and balls.


That's what I have a problem with, though. Having Darkseid outplayed by a human (even, arguably, the best human) just diminishes the idea of Darkseid. I just feel he runs the risk of becoming like the Devil from Hellblazer. He's gotten his ass kicked (figuratively) so many times that he's hardly even a threat anymore. That works for that character, in that title (Vertigo is all about making light of serious matters), I just don't want to see the same happen to Darkseid.

I guess I'd have liked Darkseid saying something like: "Go ahead. I'll survive, and there's plenty of other planets out there." Remember, this is a guy who's plans in the past have included letting Orion kill him. :)


SEAN

[Arkham Resident]

Now that it is put that way, I must agree.

One could probably say that "jobber aura" = bad writing.

I wonder if DC writers have forgotten what Darkseid can do.

I guess I just wish that Darkseid would be competent.

somewhat off the loop question here... Are there jobber auras for Marvel
heroes or is this symdrome exclusively DC? If "jobber auras" = bad writing,
i suppose bad writing like this happen also in the Marvel universe.

also, am i the only one who thinks that Darkseid is the DC version of Marvel's Thanos? :confused:

[Guts/Batman]

somewhat off the loop question here... Are there jobber auras for Marvel
heroes or is this symdrome exclusively DC? If "jobber auras" = bad writing,
i suppose bad writing like this happen also in the Marvel universe.

also, am i the only one who thinks that Darkseid is the DC version of Marvel's Thanos? :confused:

It exists both ways.

Thanos jobs as well. But Marvel just gives the reason that he subconsciously wants to get beat.

Logically, Doom should be nigh unbeatable by Marvel Earth save Dr. Strange and a few others. He has conquered Marvel Earth 3 times in contuinity only to give it back because he is bored.

By that same token, without PIS/CIS logically Wally West could waste everyone on Earth before they knew what happened.

I'll retract my statement. Not all jobber auras are bad writing, only some are.

Also, as I believe Raoulduke said on Rumbles, Thanos and Darkseid have opposite problems. Thanos kicks too much ass and Darkseid doesn't kick enough ass.

[Sean Whitmore]

somewhat off the loop question here... Are there jobber auras for Marvel
heroes or is this symdrome exclusively DC? If "jobber auras" = bad writing,
i suppose bad writing like this happen also in the Marvel universe.

also, am i the only one who thinks that Darkseid is the DC version of Marvel's Thanos? :confused:


Funny fact: Thanos jobbed to Ka-Zar. :)

(later retconned as a defective Thanos clone or something)


SEAN

[Arkham Resident]

It exists both ways.
Also, as I believe Raoulduke said on Rumbles, Thanos and Darkseid have opposite problems. Thanos kicks too much ass and Darkseid doesn't kick enough ass.

True. very true. :D

[Joker2503]

somewhat off the loop question here... Are there jobber auras for Marvel

MArvel tends to overpower its villains, where DC overpowers its heroes. Compare the god-status that Apocalypse, Magneto, and Juggernaut to that of Batman, Superman, and the Flash. DC villains like Black Adam and Darkseid would be completely untouchable in the Marvel Universe. Juggernaut prime would be brought to his knees by Superman in the DCU.

[VietN]

I haven't read that issue in a long time however...

I don't know what else Darkseid could have done besides call the bluff. Has anyone proposed a counter... something Darkseid could have done?

---

Being intelligent is power in itself too. It isn't as flashy as super strength/speed/whatever thats for sure. Thats why everyone respects Luthor.

"Jobbing" to the spectre.. Mmmm no too easy considering the paradox of religion. It must have been like taking candy from a baby.

[palaeomerus]

Magneto would be greatly improved if his writers and editors could ever get together and figure exactly what is "magnetic" in the marvel universe and decide once and for all whether he's better as a bastard(Doom) or a reformed anti-hero type(Submariner).

[Guts/Batman]

I haven't read that issue in a long time however...

I don't know what else Darkseid could have done besides call the bluff. Has anyone proposed a counter... something Darkseid could have done?

Given the story and how it was written, you are right. Darkseid couldn't do anything else.

However, Darkseid should have had that angle covered.

[palaeomerus]

I haven't read that issue in a long time however...

I don't know what else Darkseid could have done besides call the bluff. Has anyone proposed a counter... something Darkseid could have done?

---

Being intelligent is power in itself too. It isn't as flashy as super strength/speed/whatever thats for sure. Thats why everyone respects Luthor.

"Jobbing" to the spectre.. Mmmm no too easy considering the paradox of religion. It must have been like taking candy from a baby.

Darkseid has time travel via boom tubes. He could go back in time and punch Batman out as he enters the weapons locker. He could offer to relocate to Earth and make it another apokalips. Most likely he could also just activate subconcious programming in Batman implanted by someone who watched him when he was a child.

You could come up with anything because the logic of the situation depends on the writer not WANTING Darkseid to have any other options. It's so artificial that trying to pretend that there is a logic to it that reinforces it is silly since the logic flows from the desired situation of Darkseid being stymied not from a naturally occuring set of elements at hand that resulted in Darkseid being stymied.

[Guts/Batman]

You could come up with anything because the logic of the situation depends on the writer not WANTING Darkseid to have any other options. It's so artificial that trying to pretend that there is a logic to it that reinforces it is silly since the logic flows from the desired situation of Darkseid being stymied not from a naturally occuring set of elements at hand that resulted in Darkseid being stymied.

Exactly why a lot of people in the Death Spiral have problems with Sacrifice...

[Sean Whitmore]

The most obvious way for Darkseid to get out of that situation would be to realize how far a gap it is to go from "I'll never kill anyone" to "I'll murder all life on the planet". :)


SEAN

[Guts/Batman]

The most obvious way for Darkseid to get out of that situation would be to realize how far a gap it is to go from "I'll never kill anyone" to "I'll murder all life on the planet". :)


SEAN

That's what I was wondering myself.

We, the reader, knows that Batman will never consciously kill another living being. There are living beings on Apokilips, right?

For all that Batman was saying "Do what you have to do." There is an obvious caveat to this statement based on his character. Darkseid has had enough dealings with Batman to know that he wouldn't consciously blow up a planet of living beings.

Yes, that includes Darkseid himself.

Plus, Darkseid has some major telepathic abilities. Why not mindrape Batman before he can push the button or say the magic words. He certainly had the time.

But the most hilarious part of that arc was yet to come.

When Darkseid busted out of the Kent's farmhouse, I nearly busted a gut. God damn that was funny.

[Sean Whitmore]

That's what I was wondering myself.

We, the reader, knows that Batman will never consciously kill another living being. There are living beings on Apokilips, right?

For all that Batman was saying "Do what you have to do." There is an obvious caveat to this statement based on his character. Darkseid has had enough dealings with Batman to know that he wouldn't consciously blow up a planet of living beings.


Yeah, and even if he didn't know much about Bruce specifically, I'd think he would just smugly assume that no "super hero" would ever take a life. So if he was up against Wonder Woman, that assumption would bite him on the ass. It just so happens, in Batman's case, he' d be right.


SEAN

[VietN]

Solving things with time travel is morally wrong. Well unless its done right. :p

I believe Batman had what is referred to as a trump card, mother box. Given a system of variables or world within human comprehension, then considering who Batman is, I don't think its out of reach for him to come up with a good plan. Given a trump card, thus means, that leaves the execution of the plan... ah who gives a crap. Was it a good story? I thought it was 'okay'. Good guys have to win somehow.


---

I didn't know that Darkseid had telepathic abilities. For some reason I'm reminded of JLA: Rock of Ages. Batman got beat pretty good (wiped out of existence I believe) btw. Was it fair the way Darkseid got taken out there? In reality the chances of good overcoming big obstacles are small... but its different in fiction.

---
Having said all of that Darkseid does need to re-establish his image (in my mind at least) as a badass if only because of how he got beat recently in the cartoon. I think they over compensated for a weaker Superman the previous season.

[Guts/Batman]

Pre-Crisis Darkseid mindraped 3 billion Pre-Crisis Daxamites. PC Daxamites are equal or above PC Kryptonians.

His telepathic abilities are above Prof. X's telepathy level.

The difference about Rock of Ages is that Darkseid had aa competnent showing in Rock of Ages. He was nowhere near compentent in this arc.

In fact, I was laughing my ass off the whole arc.

In Superman N64 game, Darkseid was arrested at the end of the game. No matter how Loeb tries, he couldn't beat that. Not by a long shot.

[Sean Whitmore]

In Superman N64 game, Darkseid was arrested at the end of the game. No matter how Loeb tries, he couldn't beat that. Not by a long shot.


You mean this (http://www.seanbaby.com/nes/egm07.htm) game? :D


SEAN

[Guts/Batman]

You mean this (http://www.seanbaby.com/nes/egm07.htm) game? :D


SEAN

Damn you, Sean!! :p

OTOH, I did need a good laugh. That was a side splitter. :D

Fun: 0/10
Superman has about 300 different super powers, including the ability to see panties through women's clothing, and the only one the game thought to include was his fantastic ability to fly through hoops. It would have been more fun if they made a game about Superman window shopping with Aquaman.

ROTFLMMFAO!!! :D

[seaflower]

I think I took that scene between Darkseid and Batman differently then most people did.

I didn't really see Darkseid as losing to Batman. I think in many ways it shows Darkseid taking a moment to see the darkness of humanity and realize how close that darkness is to his own. Like other people have said in this forum, I think Batman just play the right cards at the right time. In some ways, it seems as if he gain a new form of respect for batman....hehehe

[Guts/Batman]

I think I took that scene between Darkseid and Batman differently then most people did.

I didn't really see Darkseid as losing to Batman. I think in many ways it shows Darkseid taking a moment to see the darkness of humanity and realize how close that darkness is to his own. Like other people have said in this forum, I think Batman just play the right cards at the right time. In some ways, it seems as if he gain a new form of respect for batman....hehehe

That is taking a philisophical way of looking at that scene.

The author is ignoring Darkseid so many other abilities to make sure the plot goes that way.

[Sean Whitmore]

I didn't really see Darkseid as losing to Batman. I think in many ways it shows Darkseid taking a moment to see the darkness of humanity and realize how close that darkness is to his own. Like other people have said in this forum, I think Batman just play the right cards at the right time. In some ways, it seems as if he gain a new form of respect for batman....hehehe


That's not a bad way to read the scene. I'd have liked it if Darkseid began laughing out loud, slapped Batman on the back, and told him he had a big pair of brass ones. :) This way Batman is still badass, and Darkseid doesn't lose face.


SEAN

[Guts/Batman]

That's not a bad way to read the scene. I'd have liked it if Darkseid began laughing out loud, slapped Batman on the back, and told him he had a big pair of brass ones. :) This way Batman is still badass, and Darkseid doesn't lose face.


SEAN

Oh God, they're drinking buddies now!! ;) :D

Batman: How's Apokolips? Any rebellions to put down?

Darkseid: No, I just get constant worship. It sucks. Ya know?

Batman: I know the feeling. Since I bluffed you with a bluff that wouldn't work on the worst poker player in the Universe, the Justice League can't stop worshipping me.

Darkseid (warming up the Omega Effect then dropping: Eh, what are ya gonna do?

[seaflower]

that is so funny ..........lolololol

drinking buddies...