Kitty Pryde- Really the Girl Next Door?

[SingLung]

A lot of the times I read people describe Kitty Pryde as the "girl next door" type, and from all the things I've read her in, I just don't see it.

Sure, for maybe a few issues she started off that way, a non-fighter with a non-offensive power, with a very "average girl in a nonaverage world" look on things, but very soon after, everything just changed. Maybe part of it was John Bryne leaving (I've heard Kitty's creation was due to a bet between him and Chris where he bet Claremont couldn't create and write a regular, non-godlike female character), I don't know, but soon she became a genius and a prodigy, then a computer expert, then a super-ninja, then over time a SHEILD agent, and just whatever was left of her "girl next door"ness is pretty much vaporized now, in my opinion. I can't see her as Kitty Pryde, average girl in non so average situations, but as Kity Pryde, SuperGirl.

[Tre Styles]

I agree that Kitty has experienced more than the average girl next door, and she definitely has a broader view of things. But I think that the comparison comes in the way Kitty handles herself. At the core of her character, she is who she is. When you think of Kitty Pryde, you don't think of all the cool super stuff she's done, you think of her romance with Peter(s), her anguish over her father's death, her growing up in Deerfield, Illionois, hanging with her best friends, going off to college, etc... She's never forgotten where she's come from, she hasn't turned herself into Super Phasing Goddess, when you come down to the core and heartof the character and who she is, she's as normal as they come. (*minus the superphasing powers of course. :cool: )

[Charagon]

Kitty is the "girl next door" in the same way that Peter Parker, with his super-powers, spy parents, and model/actress wife is an "average joe".

[Nobbel]

I just checked at my neighbors, but there is no Kitty or any other mutant living. So: no Kitty is not the girl next door to me.

I was joking, but seriously: She is still a bit the girl next door I think

[xakko]

And "girl next door" still applies precisely to her appearance. In a comic book world, how many characters are small busted and need glasses? All of the other female X-men tend to be playboy playmates, and Kitty is the most down to earth one of them all.

[LoneWolf21]

Well Kitty's far from the only only regular proportioned X-female, and she has more of a "Linda Hamilton from the Terminator movies" body type to me

[Charagon]

I'd hit it.

I'd hit it nine times.

[Uncle Nobs]

Bad news for you, Charagon: She's Jewish and pork's not Kosher.

[Titan76]

Bryne said that he got the name Kitty Pryde from a girl his friend know or he know(can't remember which one), and that her look is Kitty's look in the comics. He talks about more of this on his websie. Its very interesting, and if you want to know how Kitty was created you should take a look at it.

[fishtaco]

delete post.

[The Mirrorball Man]

In my opinion, the whole ninja deal was a mistake. It completely misses the point of the character, and makes her less interesting. It is as ridiculous as, say, making Richie Cunningham a nuclear physicist in "Happy Days" would have been.

[Titan76]

In my opinion, the whole ninja deal was a mistake. It completely misses the point of the character, and makes her less interesting. It is as ridiculous as, say, making Richie Cunningham a nuclear physicist in "Happy Days" would have been.
Turning a very smart, good looking girl into a ninja so she can fight when she goes into battle is a mistake, a bad thing and misses the point of the character? :confused: Well then what would you want her to be then?

[The Mirrorball Man]

Turning a very smart, good looking girl into a ninja so she can fight when she goes into battle is a mistake, a bad thing and misses the point of the character? :confused: Well then what would you want her to be then?
The point-of-view character. Read "Astonishing X-Men": it works.

[Titan76]

The point-of-view character. Read "Astonishing X-Men": it works.
Yeah but she still fights in Astonishing as well. She can fight because she knows ninja and even Wolverine said this in the book. So I am worring why you think the ninja part is a mistake?

[xmanson]

The point-of-view character. Read "Astonishing X-Men": it works.


One can't be a POV character forever. Astonishing just brought Kitty too many years back. It was like she was 13 again.

[The Mirrorball Man]

Yeah but she still fights in Astonishing as well. She can fight because she knows ninja and even Wolverine said this in the book. So I am worring why you think the ninja part is a mistake?
That's the whole point of the thread, actually. Kitty Pryde works as a character because she's a young, level-headed character who has lead a pretty normal life before joining the X-Men. The readers can identify with her, and she can provide a point of view and a down-to-earth perspective to the stories.

As soon as you think of her as Kitty Pryde the super-ninja, she stops being a point-of-view character, and becomes just one more X-Woman who serves no special dramatic purpose: she's just a video game character, basically. I guess I would feel differently if some of my friends were ninjas, but since it's not the case, I think the whole ninja deal damages the character, and the only way to make it work is to downplay that aspect considerably.

[The Mirrorball Man]

One can't be a POV character forever.
Alright, then let's get rid of Kitty and create a new POV character.

[xmanson]

Alright, then let's get rid of Kitty and create a new POV character.


I'm from the opinion Marvel should get rid of most of its characters, specially in the team books and bring new people.

Kitty was fine in college. leave her there, going on with her life.

[The Mirrorball Man]

I'm from the opinion Marvel should get rid of most of its characters, specially in the team books and bring new people.

Kitty was fine in college. leave her there, going on with her life.
Yes, ultimately, I think it would be better.

[Titan76]

That's the whole point of the thread, actually. Kitty Pryde works as a character because she's a young, level-headed character who has lead a pretty normal life before joining the X-Men. The readers can identify with her, and she can provide a point of view and a down-to-earth perspective to the stories.

As soon as you think of her as Kitty Pryde the super-ninja, she stops being a point-of-view character, and becomes just one more X-Woman who serves no special dramatic purpose: she's just a video game character, basically. I guess I would feel differently if some of my friends were ninjas, but since it's not the case, I think the whole ninja deal damages the character, and the only way to make it work is to downplay that aspect considerably.
They never show Kitty as a super-ninja in X-men, so I don't know where you are getting that from. In Astonshing she still fights with her ninja skills but she can still get her ass kick. Kitty doesn't fight 24/7 all the time like Wolverine does. Most, if not nearly all the time when she is in the X-books she is the down to earth person that you are talking about which is why a lot of people like her and she only shows her fighting skills when she goes into battle because she has to defend herself you know, what is she suppose to do just stand their on the sidelines? Lots of people know martial arts who are smart because they got pick on a lot when they were kids, so they had to find ways to defend themselves like Kitty has.

[The Mirrorball Man]

Most, if not nearly all the time when she is in the X-books she is the down to earth person that you are talking about which is why a lot of people like her and she only shows her fighting skills when she goes into battle because she has to defend herself you know, what is she suppose to do just stand their on the sidelines? Lots of people know martial arts who are smart because they got pick on a lot when they were kids, so they had to find ways to defend themselves like Kitty has.
This doesn't make much sense. Kitty is not an innocent girl who got picked on a lot and had to learn a couple of karate moves to defend herself: she was possessed by a freaking ninja-demon who rewired her brain in such a way that she became a super-assassin. There is nothing down-to-earth about it, and the only way the character can work now is if the writers ignore the unfortunate Ogun episode.

[Titan76]

This doesn't make much sense. Kitty is not an innocent girl who got picked on a lot and had to learn a couple of karate moves to defend herself: she was possessed by a freaking ninja-demon who rewired her brain in such a way that she became a super-assassin. There is nothing down-to-earth about it, and the only way the character can work now is if the writers ignore the unfortunate Ogun episode.
The innocent part was an example okay, I didn't say this happen to Kitty. Didn't she loss that knowledge that Ogun gave her and then Wolverine retaught her the ninja ways. Plus most writers do ignore the Ogun story, I mean when was the last time we ever heard of him in an X-book. Most of the time the writers say Wolverine taught Kitty ninja and also taught her how to use her powers. And Kitty was never an innocent girl or a goodie-goodie either, she got into a lot of fights with normal people in her early days as a X-men because she hung around Wolverine too much, she even try to smoke one of his cigars once when she was 13 or 14. ;)

[The Mirrorball Man]

Plus most writers do ignore the Ogun story, I mean when was the last time we ever heard of him in an X-book.
That's my point: making her a super-ninja was a mistake, and those who want to use the character usually ignore that part.

[Titan76]

That's my point: making her a super-ninja was a mistake, and those who want to use the character usually ignore that part.
The super-ninja happen only in a mini and that was 4 issues I think, and like I said once Ogun was no longer in Kitty's body she lost the knowledge and Wolverine just retaught her, like normal people do(expect they don't have a danger room to do it in). If anything that was a story to bring Kitty and Wolverine closer and have that special bond that they do now. It also happen a long time ago and most people don't even know about it, they just know that Wolverine taught her how to fight.

Edit: Also writers don't just usually ignore the part, it doesn't exist to them.

[Lawrence]

I think it makes sense. How sensible is it to have someone who is on a crime-fighting team who can't fight? Even all the kids at Xaviers are taught Martial Arts.

[Shadowcat]

And "girl next door" still applies precisely to her appearance. In a comic book world, how many characters are small busted and need glasses? All of the other female X-men tend to be playboy playmates, and Kitty is the most down to earth one of them all.


did you read mekanix? kitty was this stripper at the bar and judging from her assests her body is far from the "average girl".

[Tre Styles]

did you read mekanix? kitty was this stripper at the bar and judging from her assests her body is far from the "average girl".


As I read it, Kitty was NOT a stripper at a bar, rather she was a bartender working her way through college in Chicago. And although the artist may have took a few liberties, throughout most of the series, Kitty looked pretty normal to me. :)

[Shadow Crawler]

did you read mekanix? kitty was this stripper at the bar and judging from her assests her body is far from the "average girl".
Clearly you did not. Bartending does not make one a stripper. As Tre says, Kitty is working this job to pay her way through college and to be able to live in her appartment. Keep in mind, she was still acting somewhat rebellious, so her wardrobe was changed to match. But even so, throughout the entire series, she still seemed like a normal person trying to live a normal life as best she could with her past experiences.

I come to like this series just a bit more over the past few months. :(

[Charagon]

Ninja kitty rocks. What would you expect from somebody who has Wolverine for a surragate father?

[The Mirrorball Man]

I think it makes sense. How sensible is it to have someone who is on a crime-fighting team who can't fight?
The X-Men are a crime-fighting team?

[Babylon23]

I think Kitty can still function as the POV character. I don't think have superpowers or being a trained ninja detracts from that.

For example, Kyle Rayner was definitely used in this way in JLA, and he's in possession of one of the most powerful weapons in the universe. Similarly, I always related to Hawkeye in Avengers, even though I'm not a master bowman with a quiver of high-tech trick arrows. Spider-Man is the perfect example of this. Readers could relate to him, even if he did have superpowers.

I don't think it's the power level of the character that matters. The way a POV character is written is what counts, by showing us the world through that character's eyes. Kitty works as a POV character in Uncanny and Astonishing regardless of her ability to walk through walls or her martial arts skills.

As for the thread, I don't think she's ever been the "girl next door". I certainly didn't know any girls who could walk through walls, or that were part of a secret superpowered team.

[Zeta]

I've always seen her more as Lisa Simpson with superpowers. She's so overachieving, liberal, and well - a goody two shoes for the most part. I LIKE Lisa Simpson, though, so . . .

[Shadowcat]

Clearly you did not. Bartending does not make one a stripper. As Tre says, Kitty is working this job to pay her way through college and to be able to live in her appartment. Keep in mind, she was still acting somewhat rebellious, so her wardrobe was changed to match. But even so, throughout the entire series, she still seemed like a normal person trying to live a normal life as best she could with her past experiences.

I come to like this series just a bit more over the past few months. :(


oh my FORGIVE me for foolishly assuming kitty was a stripper from the various times her job was shown with her at the bar dressed slutty flipping bootles and flirting with men.Anyways truth is kitty infact barely any character could possibly sustain the "girl next door" image since comic artists can't help but draw women as playboy bunnys. Kitty lost any possible chance of being "the girl next door" when claremont got ahold of her that's why john bryne gave claremont the challenge because he knew he couldn't fullfill it he made kitty a genius with possible alien neo heritiage.

[Wezlar]

oh my FORGIVE me for foolishly assuming kitty was a stripper from the various times her job was shown with her at the bar dressed slutty flipping bootles and flirting with men.Anyways truth is kitty infact barely any character could possibly sustain the "girl next door" image since comic artists can't help but draw women as playboy bunnys. Kitty lost any possible chance of being "the girl next door" when claremont got ahold of her that's why john bryne gave claremont the challenge because he knew he couldn't fullfill it he made kitty a genius with possible alien neo heritiage.

Clearly you've never been to a bar. Because... ok this is going to be a revelation. 90% of female waitresses/bartenders dress like sluts and flirt with the customers.

[Shadow Crawler]

oh my FORGIVE me for foolishly assuming kitty was a stripper from the various times her job was shown with her at the bar dressed slutty flipping bootles and flirting with men.Anyways truth is kitty infact barely any character could possibly sustain the "girl next door" image since comic artists can't help but draw women as playboy bunnys. Kitty lost any possible chance of being "the girl next door" when claremont got ahold of her that's why john bryne gave claremont the challenge because he knew he couldn't fullfill it he made kitty a genius with possible alien neo heritiage.
Because CLEARLY flipping bottles is not what a bartender will do once in a while. And along with what Wezlar says, most female bartenders dress this way. It is also not the artist that changes the image of a character, it is the WRITER. Yes, the artist has his or her own style, but they draw the character based on what the writer writes into the script. And finally, Claremont CREATED Kitty Pryde, so there was no "getting ahold of her."

[Shadowcat]

Clearly you've never been to a bar. Because... ok this is going to be a revelation. 90% of female waitresses/bartenders dress like sluts and flirt with the customers.

the way marvel has become so strict about sexual innuendos i thought they didn't want claremont to go any further into what kitty does to pay the rent now and days so they merely allowed him to show only subtle things.

[Shadowcat]

Because CLEARLY flipping bottles is not what a bartender will do once in a while. And along with what Wezlar says, most female bartenders dress this way. It is also not the artist that changes the image of a character, it is the WRITER. Yes, the artist has his or her own style, but they draw the character based on what the writer writes into the script. And finally, Claremont CREATED Kitty Pryde, so there was no "getting ahold of her."

ease off your pills your way to emotionally involved in this although admittedly my friends and i had quite a laugh from your fanboy rantings. as for the artist drawing the character based on what the writer writes that is not always the case. besides we don't know what claremont told the artist of mekanix or any artist how to draw kitty for that matter and since pages usually have to be reviewed by the writer before they see print he obviously must have liked the new playboy kitty. last but not least while claremont co-created kitty the task was for him to write a normal teenaged girl ALL by himself which he failed to do, that is my point.

[Shadow Crawler]

ease off your pills your way to emotionally involved in this although admittedly my friends and i had quite a laugh from your fanboy rantings. as for the artist drawing the character based on what the writer writes that is not always the case. besides we don't know what claremont told the artist of mekanix or any artist how to draw kitty for that matter and since pages usually have to be reviewed by the writer before they see print he obviously must have liked the new playboy kitty. last but not least while claremont co-created kitty the task was for him to write a normal teenaged girl ALL by himself which he failed to do, that is my point.
Firstly, I know, "figure of speech," but I'm not on any pills. Secondly, it makes me happy that you and your friends have been able to get a laugh out of my rantings. It brings joy to my soul. Really, it does. Thank you.

Now onto Kitty Pryde... We don't know what any writer tells any artist. That is not the point, though. Clearly Claremont did like it. Why? It matched her personality after leaving the X-Men. But hell, even before leaving the X-Men, Kitty had the same attitude and dressed the same way. And I fail to see how Kitty's look in Mekanix is "Playboy." I just don't get it. Wearing leather hardly qualifies one to have a "Playboy" look. Whatever.

Finally, how did Claremont fail to write her as a normal teenage girl? Beyond her having powers that other teenagers don't have, of course. Besides that, she was a pretty normal girl. She was just as normal as any other teenage girl. Kitty enjoyed dancing (and took lessons), attended school, had her friends, had her crushes, fair share of her heart being broken. What's not normal about that? Or was it because she's a prodigy?

[dazzler_slave]

oh my FORGIVE me for foolishly assuming kitty was a stripper from the various times her job was shown with her at the bar dressed slutty flipping bootles and flirting with men.Anyways truth is kitty infact barely any character could possibly sustain the "girl next door" image since comic artists can't help but draw women as playboy bunnys. Kitty lost any possible chance of being "the girl next door" when claremont got ahold of her that's why john bryne gave claremont the challenge because he knew he couldn't fullfill it he made kitty a genius with possible alien neo heritiage.

You accuse artists of drawing women as Playboy Bunnies, basically of objectifying women and making them stereotypes, then you stereotype Kitty by saying that if she wears revealing clothing, has a bottle of alcohol in her hand and flirts with men she is a stripper. You also call revealing clothing slutty. Hmmm, I think you may be stereotyping women yourself.

[Schellenberg]

I hate to be semi-neutral in anything around here, but I think Claremont was simply ripping off--uh, riffing on--"Coyote Ugly" during Kitty's bar-babe stint. The film came out right around that time, or had recently crashed onto DVD or HBO[mb]. He did the same thing with "The Perfect Storm" in a particularly awkward issue of "X-treme X-Men." If "A Knight's Tale" had been fresh to Cinemax right during "MekaniX," Kitty would have been working ren fairs in a bustier.

[steve2275]

and girlfriend of COLOSSUS :)

[iceman rocks]

she used to be a bitch soz for the horrid words but they way she would moan about xavier and stuff but now she's grown up and hates emma and injoys taking the piss out of emma (good for her i hate emma frost and how she speaks to kitty)

[Shadowcat]

You accuse artists of drawing women as Playboy Bunnies, basically of objectifying women and making them stereotypes, then you stereotype Kitty by saying that if she wears revealing clothing, has a bottle of alcohol in her hand and flirts with men she is a stripper. You also call revealing clothing slutty. Hmmm, I think you may be stereotyping women yourself.


i didn't say because kitty wears revealing clothing she's a stripper. i read mekanix aswell as x-men unlimited stories she appeared in and with all the scenes of her danicing on table seducing men etc i had just assumed she was a stripper now. so please,if you don't understand a debate don't jump into it because you've added nothing productive.

[Shadowcat]

Firstly, I know, "figure of speech," but I'm not on any pills. Secondly, it makes me happy that you and your friends have been able to get a laugh out of my rantings. It brings joy to my soul. Really, it does. Thank you.?

no problemo

Now onto Kitty Pryde... We don't know what any writer tells any artist. That is not the point, though. Clearly Claremont did like it. Why? It matched her personality after leaving the X-Men. But hell, even before leaving the X-Men, Kitty had the same attitude and dressed the same way. And I fail to see how Kitty's look in Mekanix is "Playboy." I just don't get it. Wearing leather hardly qualifies one to have a "Playboy" look. Whatever?

you may not know but i know what some writers tell artists especially claremont and clearly claremont liked what was drawn and kept it that way THAT is my point. He saw she did not have the girl next door look and excepted it.Kitty did not at all dress the same way she use to that kinky leather costume she wore at the bar is not "a girl next door kitty" outfit .

Finally, how did Claremont fail to write her as a normal teenage girl? Beyond her having powers that other teenagers don't have, of course. Besides that, she was a pretty normal girl. She was just as normal as any other teenage girl. Kitty enjoyed dancing (and took lessons), attended school, had her friends, had her crushes, fair share of her heart being broken. What's not normal about that? Or was it because she's a prodigy?


how did claremont fail? are you seriously asking that question? kitty was not a normal teen age girl under claremont because made her a GENIUS.

[Shadow Crawler]

i didn't say because kitty wears revealing clothing she's a stripper. i read mekanix aswell as x-men unlimited stories she appeared in and with all the scenes of her danicing on table seducing men etc i had just assumed she was a stripper now. so please,if you don't understand a debate don't jump into it because you've added nothing productive.
Oh noes. Clearly dancing on the table makes somebody a stripper. Seriously, people dance to have a good time, and that is how I saw it. I guess what people see varies from person to person. And she doesn't seduce the men. She said in the beginning of the series that she likes the job because she can talk to the people and listen to their PROBLEMS.

And to be fair, dazzler_slave was responding to something you said about how the artist drew Kitty. Obviously they did understand what's going on and felt like saying their part.


you may not know but i know what some writers tell artists especially claremont and clearly claremont liked what was drawn and kept it that way THAT is my point. He saw she did not have the girl next door look and excepted it.Kitty did not at all dress the same way she use to that kinky leather costume she wore at the bar is not "a girl next door kitty" outfit .

how did claremont fail? are you seriously asking that question? kitty was not a normal teen age girl under claremont because made her a GENIUS.
Do you read the scripts? HOW do you know what writers tell the artists? Do they talk to you in person?

I was saying that clearly he had no problem with how she looked. Her appearance matched how she acted. That is what Claremont wanted when he was writing her here.

So Claremont failed at making her a normal girl because she was a genius? Um dude, there ARE children at that age that ARE child prodigies. Making her a prodigy in no way means that he failed with her.

[xakko]

Oh noes. Clearly dancing on the table makes somebody a stripper. Seriously, people dance to have a good time, and that is how I saw it. I guess what people see varies from person to person. And she doesn't seduce the men. She said in the beginning of the series that she likes the job because she can talk to the people and listen to their PROBLEMS.

And to be fair, dazzler_slave was responding to something you said about how the artist drew Kitty. Obviously they did understand what's going on and felt like saying their part.
Oooh... Rahne danced on a table in Excalbur... of course, latter she came around dressed like Kitty did when she worked for Hell's Belles. Which, as has been pointed out was a Coyote Ugly style establishment and that was probably the suggested attire.

And as for Kitty keeping that as her style? That's not uncommon. Kitty had always been jealous of Rachel's wardrobe, wishing she had the confidence- and the body- to pull it off. Just like a real girl in college. I remember girls like that in my college years, feeling around to find themselves. This strengthens the POV character/girl next door argument, not hinders it.

[Shadow Crawler]

Yuuup. Didn't Rahne also do some soul searching or whatever post Excalibur?

[Babylon23]

Oooh... Rahne danced on a table in Excalbur... of course, latter she came around dressed like Kitty did when she worked for Hell's Belles. Which, as has been pointed out was a Coyote Ugly style establishment and that was probably the suggested attire.

And as for Kitty keeping that as her style? That's not uncommon. Kitty had always been jealous of Rachel's wardrobe, wishing she had the confidence- and the body- to pull it off. Just like a real girl in college. I remember girls like that in my college years, feeling around to find themselves. This strengthens the POV character/girl next door argument, not hinders it.

I agree entirely. Kitty has aged at least 5-6 years (13-18) since she first appeared. Most of teh girls I know changed quite dramatically in personality and fashion sense during that time. Kitty's grown up, and has become more extroverted and comfortable with her sexuality. In no way does this mean she's a stripper.

[Alan2099]

Hold up. Are you all trying to tell me that you DON'T have a super powered, demonically trained ninja, former government agent, computer wizard living next door to you?

Must be dull where you live.

[Charagon]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think there's a single pannel in any of those bartending books where Kitty even comes close to being on a table.

She's BEHIND THE BAR!

[Shadow Crawler]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think there's a single pannel in any of those bartending books where Kitty even comes close to being on a table.

She's BEHIND THE BAR!
You are correct. The only time at work we don't see her behind the bar is the once at the end of Mekanix when she's walking INTO the bar, and the twice she's sitting at a table with Shan and her brother and sister talking. Hell, the only time she's even close to being on a table is when she is leaning over the counter to hug Shan. And FINALLY, we only see Kitty at work three times throughout the series.

[xgeek52]

oookaaay...everybody is all over the place about kitty pryde...

the question is -- kitty pryde-really the girl next door??? yes and no...she was thirteen when she joined the xmen...the school then did not have anyone that young...all the xmen came to the school at sixteen or older and the second generation was even older...

that said...the character of kitty pryde has always been about growth within the xmen and about change...she had a choice, just like the new mutants had a choice...they were teenagers...if you look at those in her age group, they all made the decision to walk away and try to live normal lives...

they choose their paths but they know that those paths always lead back to the insititute..mekanix was all about kitty living a normal life...hey, you're a college student and you work in a bar so you do all you can to earn the best living you can...i did...

but from reading the thread, a lot of you are forgetting that kitty does not forget that she is an xman...yes she wants away from the superhero life -- but astonishing tells us that while she's back on a team she's back at the institute to make sure that the generation after her has the normal life that she wants...her reaction to emma is what it is -- a teenager remember what a person did to you...i ask any of you, do you forgive or forget the wrongs done to you as a teen... she and emma has issues...

and least we not forget, kitty has a major role in claremont's the end...she's still trying to lead a normal life and she now owns the bar she worked in when she was in college...but she's older and has come to terms that she is an xman...but it is scott summers that takes her out of fight and send her back to chicago so she can take the battle on another front as candidate for mayor...he told her that it was more important than the battle they were currently fighting...

kitty pryde - the girl next door -- yes...she a human being with all of our flaws who just happens to be a mutant...

'nuff said... :cool:

[Shadowcat]

Oh noes. Clearly dancing on the table makes somebody a stripper. Seriously, people dance to have a good time, and that is how I saw it. I guess what people see varies from person to person. And she doesn't seduce the men. She said in the beginning of the series that she likes the job because she can talk to the people and listen to their PROBLEMS..


did i say simply dancing on the table made you a stripper? read my explanation once more because you clearly didn't get it or more likely ignored it inorder to support your beliefs.



Do you read the scripts? HOW do you know what writers tell the artists? Do they talk to you in person?..

i've read many scripts by writers.and have seen sketches in which artists send to the writer in which he sends back to them telling him which parts of the character he wishes the artist to alter. that is what happens in almost every comic company especially marvel.

I was saying that clearly he had no problem with how she looked. Her appearance matched how she acted. That is what Claremont wanted when he was writing her here.

So Claremont failed at making her a normal girl because she was a genius? Um dude, there ARE children at that age that ARE child prodigies. Making her a prodigy in no way means that he failed with her.


sorry, but being a genius isn't what the average everday girl is. most girls are not geniuses no matter how you might want to believe the opposite which is why claremont failed with kitty.

[Shadow Crawler]

did i say simply dancing on the table made you a stripper? read my explanation once more because you clearly didn't get it or more likely ignored it inorder to support your beliefs.

sorry, but being a genius isn't what the average everday girl is. most girls are not geniuses no matter how you might want to believe the opposite which is why claremont failed with kitty.
I read what you typed and ignored none of it. Either way, Kitty never danced on a table. Nor did she ever seduce any of the guys. She said she liked to talk to the people about their problems. And if that's seducing... then I got nothing.

Have you noticed that there have not been many genius teenage girls appear in X-books? Writing ONE of them as a child prodigy doesn't mean the writer has failed with her... And remember: there are child prodigies.

[Frank]

Why bring back an old thread like this? stupid

[xgeek52]

*sigh* frank is right all some of you are truely missing the point...kitty pryde is a claremont creation...she is a girl of suburbia, with an off the scale iq and a mutant to boot (which makes her the girl next door???)...how does she balance her teenage years with those of a young college student and someone who recognizes she's an xman who does want the world to be better...i've read nothing from anyone about her sexuality or her efforts to be mayor in the end...

i'm not throwing stones here...i've been a fan to long to blast other fans...but i read the issue where the school first discovered her (a claremont/bryne effort) she called the new mutants 'xbabies'...her first love was peter and she mourned his death and that of his sister and so many of her other peers...she walked away because she thought there was a better way...

i guess what i'm trying to say is that you can argue about how she look as a bartender, whether she danced on table etc...she's just the girl next door who grew up... :cool:

[Tre Styles]

Why bring back an old thread like this? stupid


Hold on....It's not as if the thread is THAT old, man. And if people still feel like talking about it, then what's the harm? If you don't want to read it, then you don't have to jump back into it. Calling it "stupid" is not fair, because there may be people who have yet to offer their opinion, and it's okay for people to do that....on a CBR message board. I don't see any rule against it. So next time you see an old thread that you want to avoid rise from the grave, ignore it, don't post in it. Cool? Cool. :cool: And to get back on topic: XGeek52, I'm glad that you posted that. A good balanced viewpoint to the whole discussion.

[spoon_jenkins]

I thought Kitty was pretty created as a genius rather than becoming one over time. I don't recall if there were explicit references in the script to that in her appearances, but I think that was implied in her parents' understanding of why she was being recruited by two boarding schools.

I'm another person who's a bit unethusiastic about the Kitty and Wolverine mini-series. I do think it was good to transition Kitty into a more mature person (although that had been done fairly well in the previous 20 or so issues of Uncanny anyway), and the Shadowcat costume that resulted is probably her best.

But I also think the series was a step towards making her more cookie-cutter. The cold-hearted, bloodthirsty strains CC sometimes puts in his heroes can often be annoying or ring false. And the mini also made her more of a worshipper of St. Logan. The Wolvie-centric trend CC was on could be a pain sometimes.

Odd as it sounds, there's an argument that CC changed Kitty from what she was intended to be. Byrne said somewhere (might have just been a message board) that Kitty was intended to be be different than she turned (I think remain more innocent), but CC altered her after Byrne left. Many years later, the new Wonder Girl he created was what he had intended to be like.

Now, take that with a grain of salt. Why should Byrne decide her direction rather than CC? And how big a part did each collaborator play in creating her? Plus, Byrne tends to say ridiculous stuff.

Back to the main point: I think although Kitty's been through a lot, I think she retains some innocence and normalcy.

[xgeek52]

kitty has been one thing since she entered the mansion at thirteen...she knows she's an xman first, last and foremost...the fact that she's a genius or that she walked away from the team DOES NOT negate that fact...

if byrne had certain plans for her and claremont had different plans for her so what...you hafta remember the progression of things through the years...every writer and every editor are going to have a different take on characters...she walked away from the xmen BECAUSE she thought there had to be a better way...there was no indication that the marvel editors wanted the character back...but here she is to provide a balance -- a bridge if you will -- between what is and what might be...she had SHIELD status, she's a senior staffer at the institute and in the end series, scott sends her back to chicago to continue her race for mayor, because he believes THAT is where she can be a true xman...

i don't know if any of you are reading claremont's the end, but you should check out book two issue six...kitty is an adult...everything that she is during that debate was honed THE INSTANT she walked through those doors of mansion...yes in an earlier issue she told scott she thought her place was on the front lines...but during the debate she realizes that the front lines is behind that podium as well...

i guess what i'm trying to say is i've looked at the entire package of the character...not just kitty but the others as well...and i guess as a writer a part of me understands how claremont sees kitty and how byrne wanted to see kitty...

but in the end isn't it how we view her???????

'nuf said... :cool:

[Shadowcat]

I read what you typed and ignored none of it. Either way, Kitty never danced on a table. Nor did she ever seduce any of the guys. She said she liked to talk to the people about their problems. And if that's seducing... then I got nothing..

did you read the x-men unlimited story she appeared in? i vaguely remember her dancing on a table and have seen her numerous times seemingly seducing men nothing drastic just flirting.

Have you noticed that there have not been many genius teenage girls appear in X-books? Writing ONE of them as a child prodigy doesn't mean the writer has failed with her... And remember: there are child prodigies.

why is this so hard for you to understand? john byrne asked claremont to make kitty a normal average everday king of girl minus the powers. ONCE AGAIN, most girls are not geniuses! which is how he failed in john byrnes eyes and many others, if you still don't get that then you are beyond help.

[xgeek52]

(teeth gritting)guys it's not about dancing on tables or her iq or what byrne wanted or what claremont wanted...kitty pryde, as she is, works as a character...you can debate the nuances and who wanted what and how she was portrayed but the bottom line you're dealin' with twenty years worth of character...kitty pryde as she is fits in the xmen universe...like the book, like society -- like life -- you evolve, you grow and you change...yes she's a genius but she has NEVER let that get in the way of having as normal a life as she possibly could...AND IF THAT MEANS DANCING ON TABLES TO ATTRACT CUSTOMERS SO BLOODY WHAT...

has it ever occured to anyone that marvel wanted her to be this way...i'm a fan of claremont and i'm a fan of byrne and the others...but THEY ARE A VECHILE to entertain us and yes educate us...the xmen for as long as i've been reading them have been a mirror on our society...

don't look at the artwork guys, or what the character does from one issue to the next...look on kitty pryde as a real person and maybe you'll understand why the original question was asked...

i really don't mean to rant...chalk it up to time and the fact that i've had a lot of years as a fan...i look at the characters warts and all and judge them as i would judge any real life person... :cool:

[Babylon23]

why is this so hard for you to understand? john byrne asked claremont to make kitty a normal average everday king of girl minus the powers. ONCE AGAIN, most girls are not geniuses! which is how he failed in john byrnes eyes and many others, if you still don't get that then you are beyond help.

Although I respect Byrne as an artist and writer, I often find his "I'm right and everybody else is wrong" attitude annoying. In the end, does it really matter what John Byrne asked for? He and Claremont introduced Kitty, then he left 14 issues later. If he was that concerned, he could have stayed on the book, or taken Kitty and used her in another book. The fact is, Claremont perceived Kitty in a certain way, and spent the next 11 years defining her character and personality.

Regardless of the addition of intelligence and ninja training, Kitty still serves as a good POV character. Obviously, both Claremont and Whedon see her serving that function, as they have both used her in this capacity in recent years.