Secondary Mutation or Evolution?

[Frank]

I`ve heard the title "Secondary Mutation" thrown around quite a bit recently, and i`m not to sure it`s applied to what it really means. What happened to Beast and Iceman to me is not secondary mutation(whethere it`s cool or not), it`s more like Evolution. You`re a cat man who becomes even more a catman. Like Cyclops had more power after Giant X-Men 1 so needed a new visor, right?

To me, secondary mutation is something new, something not related to what you had before in any ways. Sort-of like remember when Polaris lost her magnetic powers and got bigger and began to have super-human strength? THAT`S secondary mutation to me.

Also, what would you guys want to see more happen to you favorite mutants, some sort of evolution to what they were, or an entire new sets of powers? Or even same powers applied differently(like a telepath using her powers as a psy knife). I think in any of these cases it could be fun.

[shaolin_dolomite]

So is emma turning to diamond secondary mutation or evolution?

[Marty4Magik]

Secondary mutation is the lamest idea EVER in the world of comics.
I really HATE the entire concept.

If a writer doesn't like a characters powers (Emma Frost), don't use the character, or just evolve their existing powers, built on that.

Iceman? NOT a secondary mutation. He always had Icepowers.
Beast? Not a sec mutation, he evolved further. (devolved for me personally, HATE the new Beast)
Angel? Maybe, might be something done by Apocalypse (he had healing powers before in a Wolverine issue, with wings of light) though.
Emma Frost? Yes, this is a seconday mutation.

Morisson wanted to use Colossus, but couldn't so made Emma turn into diamond. And what did he do with that power? Good as nothing.

And where are Angels healing powers now? Gone.

I really hope it is just mentioned somewhere between the lines that they were wrong and that there is no such thing as a secondary mutation.
Just blame it on something they ate.... :p

[Callie]

Some characters evolve like Iceman or Beast (I would like Cat Beast more if the artists could draw him consistently).

I would consider Angel's healing blood and Emma Frost's diamond form a secondary mutation however. Healing blood is not a logical evolution of an avian mutation (wings, hollow bones). Diamond form has nothing to do with telepathy; in fact, the two are mutually exclusive for Emma.

I do like Emma's second mutation moreso than Angel's. Angel's healing blood tends to be used for convenience. Emma's is like a physical representation of her personality.

[Frank]

I think with Emma it would have been more interesting had she lost her psy powers completly and assume her new look and powers. I think she could have used the diamond-skin not unlike the blond-hair meta-woman character in the John Byrne`s Next Men series: everything about her is hard and razor-sharp and as such would be as hard as that and cut into anything with her fingers(in the Next Men series that girl plounged her hand threw a man`s chest).

I think secondary mutation make sens when it happens after a lost of the original powers or when it`s under a stressed/surival mode. Like in the case of Polaris where she got her powers striped away from her. Or with Emma when this new powers happened because it was a way to protect herself when Genosha got nuked. It makes sens considering when you read between the lines, the original idea behind mutants are humans that gets higher powers when in survival mode(a la a woman find herself getting super-human strength when caught in a car crash).

[o1pickleboy]

I like Angels healing powers, I think they made the character more useful and cool.

Secondary mutations are new. Look at some of the older x character that have multiple powers

Wolverine - what does a healing factor have to due with enhanced senses and claws?

Nightcrawler- what does looking like a demon have to do with teleportation?

Jean Grey- she is the only telepath, teleknietic I know of(outside her children)

[o1pickleboy]

To addmore to the "secondary mutations" question.

Woulnd't all the externals have the secondary mutation of being immortal(well kinda immortal)

[fishtaco]

I don't like the sudden mutant growth in population idea altogether, but i thought that the secondary mutation concept was an interesting add-on to it. Mutants need to evolve too, right? I didn't like a lot of the character's secondary mutations (ie Beast, Iceman, Black Tom), but it was still an interesting concept, even if it was something I never wanted to happen.

[Adam Crocker]

What happened to Beast and Iceman to me is not secondary mutation(whethere it`s cool or not), it`s more like Evolution.

[...]

Sort-of like remember when Polaris lost her magnetic powers and got bigger and began to have super-human strength? THAT`S secondary mutation to me.

I don't see the difference. Either way, what you're describing looks like a secondary mutation to me in that it happens after their primary mutation.

Mind you the term evolution refers to the process by which organisms acquire and pass on novel traits to one another. Mutation is one of the processes involved in it.

I have other thoughts on this, but I need to sit on 'em for awhile.

[Stix]

Well House of M / Decimation ends this debate completely. Apparently no more secondary mutations. Or thats what I read.

Sorry if I've missed something. Comics are about a month behind here in South Africa. Only got deadly genesis #1 last week, and still waiting to see what happened to Iceman with that cliff hanger ending.

But anyway, I'm sure I read before Decimation really started that Secondary mutations would be a thing of the past. Can't remember where though.

[o1pickleboy]

I don't like the sudden mutant growth in population idea altogether, but i thought that the secondary mutation concept was an interesting add-on to it. Mutants need to evolve too, right? I didn't like a lot of the character's secondary mutations (ie Beast, Iceman, Black Tom), but it was still an interesting concept, even if it was something I never wanted to happen.

I think it was used on the wrong characters. The three examples you gave really in my opinion were just "power ups".

When they gave Angle healing powers and Emma diamond skin. Though hell yah. Finally Angle is has some worth.

I wish they would have used the secondary mutations alot better and included.

Giving

Cyclops X-Ray vision

Toad?? but he need something

Beast?? something other than looking like a cat.

Karma??? same as toad.

[ZNOP]

Just how many mutants have confirmed secondary mutations? Pre or Post M-Day doesn't matter. I ask because I don't think it's a valid classification anymore and, should be stricken from any and all debates.

[MythicBrawn]

Secondary mutation is extreme laziness. Let's just give mutants random powers on top of the powers that they already have. Emma being a telepath should have been enough. Evolve her mental abilities. Give her something related instead of something out of left field. Hank's progression was believable until changing him into a cat thing. I guess Scott's next mutation should be shapechanging or some other nonsense.

[Ratstar]

Secondary mutation is extreme laziness. Let's just give mutants random powers on top of the powers that they already have. Emma being a telepath should have been enough. Evolve her mental abilities. Give her something related instead of something out of left field. Hank's progression was believable until changing him into a cat thing. I guess Scott's next mutation should be shapechanging or some other nonsense.

You can't really evolve her mental abilities much more than they already are... It was just Morrison being Morrison.

And wasn't Scott's other mutation a strategy thing or something?

Hank's... Mutation isn't always a progressive thing, it's sometimes random, especially in Marvel terms. His mutation was beastness, the secondary one just became a different form of beastness.

[JohnSD]

I`ve heard the title "Secondary Mutation" thrown around quite a bit recently, and i`m not to sure it`s applied to what it really means. What happened to Beast and Iceman to me is not secondary mutation(whethere it`s cool or not), it`s more like Evolution.

No, evolution is something that happens between generations. One generation can be an evolved form of prior generations, due to mutations in prior generations being passed down.

If something happens within an individual then it either plain growth/development (you could argue that Beast's mutation has developed over time), or mutation ("secondary mutations", i.e. completely new genetic developments within the character, equally arguably what has happened to Beast). But it seems wrong to say that a character "evolves", in the same way that I did not evolve from a baby to an adult, and it's not evolution to turn bald and fat... :smile:

[ZNOP]

1. Polaris (Lorna Dane): after having her mutant powers leeched by her supposed-sister, Zaladane, Lorna developed the first recorded case. Her body mass had increased, along with her strength and resistance to injury. When her secondary powers were used, it developed negative emotions in anyone around her. Later, Lorna regained her original powers after Zaladane's death, and her secondary mutation vanished. This was retconned to be the first known secondary mutation when the concept was first introduced.

2. Beast (Hank McCoy): after being seriously injured by the villain Vargas, Sage attempted to use her ability to "jump start" mutation to save his life. This resulted in Beast evolving from his simian form into a giant feline form.

3. Emma Frost: Emma's secondary mutation activated in the midst of the bombing of Genosha by Cassandra Nova's wild Mega-Sentinels. She transformed into an indestructible organic diamond form that saved her life, but negates her telepathy so she cannot use both powers at once. Recent revelations suggested that it may have been Nova who helped produce the secondary mutation. It was later explained that Cassandra Nova implanted a suggestion in Emma's mind in an attempt to eventually make an escape from the Shi'ar alien protoplasmic Stuff during the same procedure.

4. Angel (Warren Worthington III): discovered his new power while being wounded in a battle with a group of werewolf-like mutants called the Dominant Species. Both he and his teammate Husk were severely wounded. Husk almost died, but was brought back through contact with Warren's blood seeping in through wounds on her own body. His blood gained a healing property that can be used to mend and regenerate others of the same blood-type. This activation was then retconned as having occurred earlier, in a battle against Black Tom Cassidy, when his skin turned from blue to normal (later described as a result of his healing factor activating). Angel had previously been modified by Apocalypse; whether this included genetic alterations has never been clarified.

5. Iceman (Bobby Drake): his supposed secondary mutation was greatly increasing his ice manipulation abilities, but leaving him trapped in his organic ice form and unable to transform back to flesh and blood. However, after the events of M-Day, where over 90% of the world's mutant population became depowered, Bobby is once more able to revert back and forth. This leaves the question of whether his transformation was a second mutation or just an increase in his power he had to overcome.

6. Phoenix (Jean Grey-Summers): After the storyline The Twelve, Jean Grey somehow managed to transfer her telekinetic powers to Psylocke, who also managed to transfer her telepathy to Jean Grey. For a time, Jean only had telepathic powers. However, when the NEW X-MEN series started, Jean's telekinetic powers had returned. Beast implied that it was the result of a secondary mutation for Jean. However, this appears to be retcon later, as it is revealed that as some unspecific point, Jean merged again with the Phoenix Force and that perhaps the Phoenix had given her back her telekinesis.

7. Elixir, (Josh Foley): Initially, when Josh's healing powers manifest, he looked like a normal teenage boy. However, after being brutally attacked by Wolfsbane, Elixir was forced to heal himself. The result of which, caused Josh's body to undergo a second, this time physical, mutation, turning his skin from flesh tone to gold. Later, Josh's powers undergo another change, with the revelation of his death touch, which also turns his skin black. Though this can be seen as the two facets of the same power to control human biological functions (both healing and killing) as oppossed to just a healing power.

8. Spyke, (Evan Daniels): After leaving with the Morlocks, developed a permanent armor and gained the ability to light up the ends of his spikes, although he was already beginning the process before joining them.

Is that it??? Eight, known secondary mutations? Even with detailed explanation -- that's lame as hell! Only eight? Who coined the secondary mutation? That's not a rhetorical question.

[digitalways]

Is that it??? Eight, known secondary mutations? Even with detailed explanation -- that's is lame as hell! Only eight? Who coined the secondary mutation? That's not a rhetorical question.

I was going to point this out, too. Why were there so few of them? This sounds like it was a plot device that should have been picked up and developed further, but given what the X-books were like back then (a.k.a. awful) I'm not surprised. I want to say the whole thing was coined by Morrison, but I'm just guessing at this point.

[Frank]

No, evolution is something that happens between generations. One generation can be an evolved form of prior generations, due to mutations in prior generations being passed down.

If something happens within an individual then it either plain growth/development (you could argue that Beast's mutation has developed over time), or mutation ("secondary mutations", i.e. completely new genetic developments within the character, equally arguably what has happened to Beast). But it seems wrong to say that a character "evolves", in the same way that I did not evolve from a baby to an adult, and it's not evolution to turn bald and fat... :smile:

"Evolution" I meant more as an expression to evolve. Meaning getting better at something and develop some other form of powers by being better at the power you already had. I think Beast had cat-like powers to begin with and he become more...of a cat. Secondary mutation is more like Emma Frost/Polaris got wich is something completly unrelated to their previous powers.

I don't know if the terms should be better classified but it would be cool if creators would actually adress it. Also adress the idea of mutants having various powers compared to others that have one.

I don't know how I feel about it. I think if you get another power that is different from your original one, it's better done the way Claremont wrote it with Polaris than with Emma: Polaris had her powers sucked out of her by Zaladane and later on her body reacted to danger and gave her another power. That was pretty interesting to me(although of course this has been retconed as Lorna growing and getting super-strength because of the Shadow King's possession. Still the idea is there, it was in CC's original take).

[infernohara]

There wasn't many with secondary mutations, but some could have been really cool:

Emma has diamond skin just like a certain Alpha flight member, so why can't she throw pieces of her hair as projectiles or stab people with the corners of her body? Diamond form is kinda lame in my opinion and is a power based solely from her personality...not from her powers. It protects her a little so I guess that something.

Iceman still does nothing with his potential. Just standing around and never growing up. I really hope someday somebody will do him right.

Angel could have been great. Healing blood as the Angel, corrosive blood as ArchAngel.

We need more characters to get these "secondary mutations". i still can't believe none of the villains got it.

[nightw1ng]

most of the secondary mutations could have just been explained as an evolution or strengthening of their powers over time. the only ones whose powers were completely unrelated were polaris, emma frost, and archangel and could have been explained by outside tampering (such as the process zaladane used altered lorna's body, emma's deal with cassandra nova, and the changes apocalpyse made to warren's body). they should just drop the idea of secondary mutation entirely.

[infernohara]

most of the secondary mutations could have just been explained as an evolution or strengthening of their powers over time. the only ones whose powers were completely unrelated were polaris, emma frost, and archangel and could have been explained by outside tampering (such as the process zaladane used altered lorna's body, emma's deal with cassandra nova, and the changes apocalpyse made to warren's body). they should just drop the idea of secondary mutation entirely.

I agree. It should be dropped and forgotten about.

[long live jean grey]

This just goes to show you that Morrison was the beginning of X-Men going horribly wrong.


Secondary Mutations

Weapon XLV to infinity

Fantomex

Sublime/kick

HCT

The whole "edgy" vibe that has led to the current crap being put out

Scemma



I could go on.

Not to mention he just killed Batman!


I HATE Morrison and LOOK DOWN UPON Fraction(Sisterhood anyone? No? I don't blame you.).

They ruined/ are ruining my super heroes.

I don't like DC's Golden Boys but this stupid angsty, "edgy" bullcrap they have put the X-Men through is just HORRID!

[Dave13]

[SIZE="1"] 7. Elixir, (Josh Foley): Initially, when Josh's healing powers manifest, he looked like a normal teenage boy. However, after being brutally attacked by Wolfsbane, Elixir was forced to heal himself. The result of which, caused Josh's body to undergo a second, this time physical, mutation, turning his skin from flesh tone to gold. Later, Josh's powers undergo another change, with the revelation of his death touch, which also turns his skin black. Though this can be seen as the two facets of the same power to control human biological functions (both healing and killing) as oppossed to just a healing power.

Beast Assumed that Elixir's Skin changed Because of a Secondry mutation, however later Dany used actual logic and pointed out it was most probable that his Skin Changed due to his Subconcius mind missing who he used to be and used his power to reflect these Issue's.

It's a Psychological deal as is the Later turning black.

[Ratstar]

He used his power to change his own genes to make himself the Golden Boy, like Rachel used hers to make herself into a more interesting reptilian version of herself.

[ZNOP]

He used his power to change his own genes to make himself the Golden Boy, like Rachel used hers to make herself into a more interesting reptilian version of herself.

Q. Can that logic justify the fanfic that proposes that Mystique can change her DNA to become a man effectively and shoot "super sperm (http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=super+sperm)"?

[Ratstar]

Q. Can that logic justify the fanfic that proposes that Mystique can change her DNA to become a man effectively and shoot "super sperm (http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=super+sperm)"?

Mystique isn't an omega level manipulator of biology. But considering she can turn into a mermaid, give herself jetplane wings, and make clear, breakable glass from her own flesh and bones, that can't be much of a stretch.

[ZNOP]

Mystique isn't an omega level manipulator of biology. But considering she can turn into a mermaid, give herself jetplane wings, and make clear, breakable glass from her own flesh and bones, that can't be much of a stretch.

O'k:smile: Already I like you. Pltonically, of course:wink:

[Frank]

This just goes to show you that Morrison was the beginning of X-Men going horribly wrong.


Secondary Mutations

Weapon XLV to infinity

Fantomex

Sublime/kick

HCT

The whole "edgy" vibe that has led to the current crap being put out

Scemma



I could go on.

Not to mention he just killed Batman!


I HATE Morrison and LOOK DOWN UPON Fraction(Sisterhood anyone? No? I don't blame you.).

They ruined/ are ruining my super heroes.

I don't like DC's Golden Boys but this stupid angsty, "edgy" bullcrap they have put the X-Men through is just HORRID!

Actually, I hate Morrison's run. HATE. Yet I think that secondary mutation is somewhat interesting. (I remember doing a story when I was 12 years old :biggrin: where it's ten years in the futur and most X-Men characters have evolved into purest versions of what they are. Most of it was their powers taking a logical progression however. I had Cyclops having a body much like the U-Foes villains "X-Ray" where it was his powers getting too much to countain. Beast was not cat-like but was walking on all fours, Angel was more bird-like, looking like a Shiar actually, etc...).

[alf_to_the_rescue]

A bitching thread. Cool.

[Frank]

A bitching thread. Cool.

Created in 2005! lol

[SayOcean]

well you know sunfire was supposed to be a mutant cause of the atom bomb and such, and mutations were supposed to partly be cause of the toxins we are putting in our enviroment, maybe mutants are just more prone to these toxins and since we are continually polluting the eart their mutations are just growing

[ZNOP]

well you know sunfire was supposed to be a mutant cause of the atom bomb and such, and mutations were supposed to partly be cause of the toxins we are putting in our enviroment, maybe mutants are just more prone to these toxins and since we are continually polluting the eart their mutations are just growing

Sounds like "Godzilla":wink: No, really the "toxins" were merely triggers... Everyone knows (or should) that the Celestials planted the seeds for genetic mutations on Earth. Damn, I miss thoses 2000 foot -- "power cosmic" dudes/dudettes with the coolist armor designs ever.

[SayOcean]

Sounds like "Godzilla":wink: No, really the "toxins" were merely triggers... Everyone knows (or should) that the Celestials planted the seeds for genetic mutations on Earth.yeah sorry i didnt make it clearly but it makes more sense than those stupid celestials

[ZNOP]

yeah sorry i didnt make it clearly but it makes more sense than those stupid celestials

What's not to like about the Space Gods?

[blinkinrogue]

on a note, M has a multitude of powers that are not related to each other (unless they finally explain all of them are psionic). wonder where she fits in?

[ZNOP]

Superhuman strength, speed, agility, dexterity, reflexes, coordination, balance, vision, hearing, and endurance. Genius level intellect, Accelerated healing factor, Supersonic Flight, Telepathy, Ability to perceive mutant auras.

Isn't Monet mutant ability perfection? That would cover it:biggrin: Still she can't eat stars:evilsmile:

[SayOcean]

Superhuman strength, speed, agility, dexterity, reflexes, coordination, balance, vision, hearing, and endurance. Genius level intellect, Accelerated healing factor, Supersonic Flight, Telepathy, Ability to perceive mutant auras.

Isn't Monet mutant ability perfection? That would cover it:biggrin: Still she can't eat stars:evilsmile:Stars are so 2000

[blinkinrogue]

and why settle for stars when you're a SUPERSTAR??? :cool: :cool:

[infernohara]

This just goes to show you that Morrison was the beginning of X-Men going horribly wrong.


Secondary Mutations

Weapon XLV to infinity

Fantomex

Sublime/kick

HCT

The whole "edgy" vibe that has led to the current crap being put out

Scemma



I could go on.

Not to mention he just killed Batman!


I HATE Morrison and LOOK DOWN UPON Fraction(Sisterhood anyone? No? I don't blame you.).

They ruined/ are ruining my super heroes.

I don't like DC's Golden Boys but this stupid angsty, "edgy" bullcrap they have put the X-Men through is just HORRID!

I agree with everything except your negativity against Fantomex. Hes one of the most original mutants out there. Having to rely on another to survive is pretty neat.

[SayOcean]

I agree with everything except your negativity against Fantomex. Hes one of the most original mutants out there. Having to rely on another to survive is pretty neat.Fantomex is interesting but not the best thing about morrisions run, he made the xmen relevant, more up to date

[Anodyne]

No, evolution is something that happens between generations. One generation can be an evolved form of prior generations, due to mutations in prior generations being passed down.

If something happens within an individual then it either plain growth/development (you could argue that Beast's mutation has developed over time), or mutation ("secondary mutations", i.e. completely new genetic developments within the character, equally arguably what has happened to Beast). But it seems wrong to say that a character "evolves", in the same way that I did not evolve from a baby to an adult, and it's not evolution to turn bald and fat... :smile:
This kind of "secondary mutation" occurs in real life. We call it cancer.

[Monty_Cristo]

Shortpack shrinks and has short-range telepathy. he defies evolution.