Batman: the greatest martial artist in DCU? [Archive]

Arkham Resident

09-30-2005, 05:08 AM

Now, probably this has been debated already somewhere, but what the hell..

possible candidates ( this is purely my opinion) for the title: Connor Hawke ( Green Arrow) , Lady Shiva, Cassandra Cain ( Batgirl)

here's my take on this: Cassandra Cain once beat Lady Shiva ( Batgirl v2#25);Batman has never beaten Shiva convincingly and in fact, has said once that Shiva might well be the best fighter alive ( Batman #509); Lady Shiva , in Brother of the Fist defeated Green Arrow in combat; Cassandra Cain is the only one i know who has beaten Lady Shiva, convincingly, this was i think in Batgirl v2# 25. I'm not familiar where the Bats and Connor fought and thus cant measure the match-up and lastly, i read somewhere that when Cass and Bats fought it was virtual stalemate or was it Batman who won ,but he cheated.

With this, i live it open to you for your inputs , if Batman deserves the title above as the greatest MA in DCu.

And oh, dont hold it back if you think there are other candidates other than those i stated...

Matt

09-30-2005, 05:16 AM

It'd probably go something like;

Richard Dragon
Lady Shiva/Batgirl
Connor Hawke
Batman

Arkham Resident

09-30-2005, 05:21 AM

It'd probably go something like;

Richard Dragon
Lady Shiva/Batgirl
Connor Hawke
Batman

Is your list, sequential , with Batman no.4?

Yeah, I forgot about Dragon. But didnt Lady Shiva killed him? :confused:

fuaak

09-30-2005, 05:41 AM

Don't look at the highest feat, look at the standard portrayal. Batman has some crazy wins, but he also regularly has a hard time against common armed thugs. Almost anybody with a costume can get, and has gotten, hits in on him. In the preview of Gotham County, Joker is kicking his ass (again). He is better than the most, but nowhere near the absolute top of the DCU as a hand-to-hand fighter.

In comparison, Batgirl regularly annihilates entire mobs of gunmen within seconds, casually pulls off feats such as punching through concrete and running along walls, and laughs off assaults from anybody below Batman level. Or look at Shiva - she doesn't treat even Black Canary as a threat, and BC is canonically about equal to Bats as a martial artist.

Basically, Bats isn't the best HtH fighter, he's lucky if he's in the top 20 today. He just occasionally pulls off some unlikely victories.

ExoKnight

09-30-2005, 06:34 AM

Would Deathstroke make an appearance on this list? He single-handedly fought the JLA to a stand still in Identity Crisis.

Gaz

09-30-2005, 07:51 AM

Would Deathstroke make an appearance on this list? He single-handedly fought the JLA to a stand still in Identity Crisis.
Yes, but Slade is legit meta. He moves faster, reacts quicker and is stronger than any normal person COULD be.

The Shadow

09-30-2005, 08:08 AM

Accoprding to the DCU Encyclopedia when Batgirl beat Shiva she became the pre-eminent martial artist in the DCU

I would say:

Batgirl
Shiva
Dragon
Batman
Nightwing
Hawke

SlightlyMad

09-30-2005, 08:39 AM

The Question & Huntress have both studied under Richard Dragon, plus Question has been given pointers by Shiva in the past too, so I would put both of them on the list.

pureclint

09-30-2005, 09:19 AM

The problem with Batman is he is all over the map. He has trained under both Dragon and Shiva, beaten Shiva (with one punch no less of course that was lame), Deathstroke, and Batgirl. Yet Black Mask can hold his own with him. Of course he is just as good of an archer as Connor Hawke according to the cross over Chuck Dixon wrote. And when exactly has it ever been shown Black Canary is as good as Bruce? I thought she was just a master of Judo while he knows like 7 or so forms.

Would Bruce win in a fight against any other Martial Artist? Yes, he is by far the smartest, trickiest and most clever of the bunch. But on a pure skill level he is not in the top 3.

Question: Why does everyone discount Slade yet include Batgirl? Isn't she a META as well since she can see your movements as a type of music? People can train all they want and never be able to read people like she does.

My top tier would be:

Richard Dragon
Lady Shiva
Batgirl
Batman
Nightwing
Bronze Tiger
Conner Hawke
Deathstroke (I dont care if he is a Meta he has skill)

Sean Whitmore

09-30-2005, 09:35 AM

Question: Why does everyone discount Slade yet include Batgirl? Isn't she a META as well since she can see your movements as a type of music? People can train all they want and never be able to read people like she does.

They theoretically could, if they were trained since birth. :) Whereas with Slade, there was a super-soldier serum involved.

Azrael would also be disqualified, I suppose, as he has monkey DNA in him or something (it's been a long time). But it's worth mentioning that Batman said if Azrael ever got his head together, he'd be the most dangerous fighter alive.

SEAN

pureclint

09-30-2005, 09:43 AM

They theoretically could, if they were trained since birth. :) Whereas with Slade, there was a super-soldier serum involved.

SEAN

I think that is bull. No one can read people like that regardless of training. People do start training (of course not like her is many ways) at tons of things from the time they are 2 or so. Sure they get better at reacting and prediction (some times, natural ability still plays a role) but they do not see it as a language or music like she does.

Also, that alone does not make you a martial artist. There is no martial art called "musical bodies" or some such. She as essentially only had league of assasians training right? With out her special ability would she be as tough?

I agree with Slade it is more cut and dry, but he still was trained out the wazoo. Yet just like Slade, Cassandra is using a enchancment no one else has.

Sean Whitmore

09-30-2005, 09:49 AM

pureclint

09-30-2005, 09:59 AM

I also don't think anyone could possible reach, say, Shiva's level of skill. But within the confines of the DCU, it's obviously possible, because Cass can do it. She couldn't be disqualified from any list for being meta because her biology is 100% unaltered human.

SEAN

Well I don't think you should disqualify her, Slade, Canary whomever just because they have powers. They can still be as skilled as the next guy, to me reading body language like she does is a Superpower, no one in the world can do it. It does need to be taken into consideration.

Of course in the DCU, they now classify Bruce and Green Arrow as metas according to the OMAC project (which makes sense in a way).

Gaz

09-30-2005, 09:59 AM

I think that is bull. No one can read people like that regardless of training. People do start training (of course not like her is many ways) at tons of things from the time they are 2 or so. Sure they get better at reacting and prediction (some times, natural ability still plays a role) but they do not see it as a language or music like she does.

Also, that alone does not make you a martial artist. There is no martial art called "musical bodies" or some such. She as essentially only had league of assasians training right? With out her special ability would she be as tough?

I agree with Slade it is more cut and dry, but he still was trained out the wazoo. Yet just like Slade, Cassandra is using a enchancment no one else has.
Sign language. In a sense, all Cassandra is doing is using a modified version of that, which could easily be learned from birth if that's the only way anyone communicated with her. Babies learn language from what they're exposed to.
And Canary has trained with Nightwing, Connor, a bit with Shiva, Wildcat and I think with Dragon, as well as a few other teachers.

marshal99

09-30-2005, 10:02 AM

No Bronze Tiger on that list ? This is the guy who killed kathy Kane and knocked out batman (behind his back) and had fought batman to a stalemate later.

Nightwing shouldn't be on that list , Bane manhandled him pretty easily and the likes of Mr. Fun have no problem sneaking up on him and clocking him in the head.

pureclint

09-30-2005, 10:03 AM

Sign language. In a sense, all Cassandra is doing is using a modified version of that, which could easily be learned from birth if that's the only way anyone communicated with her. Babies learn language from what they're exposed to.
And Canary has trained with Nightwing, Connor, a bit with Shiva, Wildcat and I think with Dragon, as well as a few other teachers.

Thats not sign language, it is not a language. IF I went to punch some one and you did even if we trained together we would do it differently, sign language you have a preset goal to mean this symbol is A, that is You etc.

Sean Whitmore

09-30-2005, 10:04 AM

Of course in the DCU, they now classify Bruce and Green Arrow as metas according to the OMAC project (which makes sense in a way).

That probably goes for everyone in a costume, right? They even went after Firefly, who's power is a jumped-up flamethrower. :)

SEAN

Sean Whitmore

09-30-2005, 10:06 AM

No Bronze Tiger on that list ? This is the guy who killed kathy Kane

He killed Batwoman? What comic did that happen in?

SEAN

marshal99

09-30-2005, 10:14 AM

He killed Batwoman? What comic did that happen in?

SEAN

Detective comics #485
http://image.milehighcomics.com/istore/images/large/24038627564.485.gif

http://www.comics.com.br/batman/numero2/tigrbro1.jpg

Bronze Tiger was brainwashed by the league of assassins.

pureclint

09-30-2005, 10:14 AM

That probably goes for everyone in a costume, right? They even went after Firefly, who's power is a jumped-up flamethrower. :)

SEAN

Hey man it was a cool retard slapping flame thrower!!!

No Bronze Tiger on that list ? This is the guy who killed kathy Kane and knocked out batman (behind his back) and had fought batman to a stalemate later.

Nightwing shouldn't be on that list , Bane manhandled him pretty easily and the likes of Mr. Fun have no problem sneaking up on him and clocking him in the head.

I had Tiger, just put the wrong color. Its fixed.

Didn't Shiva rank Nightwing fairly high in the Brotherhood of the Monkey Cross over (the same one I mentioned earlier by CHuck Dixon, when we found out Bat's is as good a archer as Conner)

Sean Whitmore

09-30-2005, 10:16 AM

Detective comics #485

Bronze Tiger was brainwashed by the league of assassins.

Wow, that's pretty dark for a comic with the words "Batman Family" on the cover. :) Thanks, I never knew that.

SEAN

Absalom

09-30-2005, 10:35 AM

Originally posted by pureclint

Thats not sign language, it is not a language. IF I went to punch some one and you did even if we trained together we would do it differently, sign language you have a preset goal to mean this symbol is A, that is You etc.
First, it's not sign language, it's body language.

Second, you're mistaking "real world peak human" with "comic book peak human". Batman is not metahuman, yet we all have seen him do stuff it'd be downright impossible for any real world human to do.

Shiva and Batgirl, through constant training, have achieved what would probably be considered metahuman stats, but are they metahuman per se ? No, because they're 100% human, with no kind of genetic, cybernetic, chemical, alien or mystical enhancement whatsoever. So everything they do (even the body reading) is within the realm of possibility for any DCU human to do, if said human ever get the level of training they had.

And Deathstroke, even though is a good fighter, shouldn't be on this list because, from his fights, it can't be determined how much is in fact martial arts skill, and how much is actually the super-serum talking. Before he had the serum, he was a competent fighter, but I wouldn't put him above Wildcat. After the serum, he had tagged speedsters like Kid Flash (both Wally and Bart) which is something pretty much impossible for even people the level of Shiva/Cassandra to do, as said speedsters can move at relativistic speeds.

marshal99

09-30-2005, 10:44 AM

What about those exclusive villains like Constantine Drakon who only appeared in Green Arrow and he kicked Conner's ass pretty much or Savant from Birds of Prey who dealt with Black Canary rather easily.

pureclint

09-30-2005, 10:51 AM

And Deathstroke, even though is a good fighter, shouldn't be on this list because, from his fights, it can't be determined how much is in fact martial arts skill, and how much is actually the super-serum talking.

So from Cassandra's fights how much is martial arts skill and how much is the reading of body language? That is what I am mainly talking about, people give her a pass when she is obviously using some thing outside the realm of martial arts.

Against Slade, when she could not use this ability(So no one in DC is born with powers? Since it was not a serum or a magic word it can't be a power!!!), he toyed with her and led her on a chase to set up a fight with Ravager. So she obviously relies a lot on it.

I think it is a meta human feat to read people how she does. Again explaining it as it is like sign language(I was commenting on what some one else said) does not fly, body language is way to amorphous.

Absalom

09-30-2005, 10:54 AM

Can't tell. I don't know those villains. What's their history? Are they 100% human ?

Anyway, I disagree with the "Black-Canary is as skilled as Batman" thing. She may be good, but Batman would be one step above her in the foodchain, in my opinion. I'd put her on par with Nightwing.

Alan2099

09-30-2005, 11:00 AM

I'd put her above Batman. Bats relies too heavily on cheating to win fights.

Absalom

09-30-2005, 11:06 AM

Originally posted by pureclint

So from Cassandra's fights how much is martial arts skill and how much is the reading of body language? That is what I am mainly talking about, people give her a pass when she is obviously using some thing outside the realm of martial arts.
Reading your opponent body movements isn't outside the realm of martial arts. Shiva does it, Batman does it, heck, even real life martial artists do it. The thing is: they can do it to a limited extent, because none have ever achieved the level of body-reading Cassandra has, and that is because none have ever had the kind of training she had. But that level is still possible for any DCU human to achieve, if going through said training.
Against Slade, when she could not use this ability(So no one in DC is born with powers? Since it was not a serum or a magic word it can't be a power!!!), he toyed with her and led her on a chase to set up a fight with Ravager. So she obviously relies a lot on it.
Again, it's not a power. She CAN use this ability because it's a 100% natural ability. Slade's speed/reflexes/strenght/agility, on the other hand, were artificially enhanced.
I think it is a meta human feat to read people how she does. Again explaining it as it is like sign language does not fly, body language is way to amorphous.
Once again: DCU human =! real life human. Her body-reading skills can pass for metahuman, but are in fact totally natural.

xnef1025

09-30-2005, 11:26 AM

While body language can be amorphous, there are still certain rules of physics and biology that all fighting styles are limited by. Cass just learned to read multiple types of body language, just like a child can learn multiple languages. Young children can learn multiple languages easily because thier brains are still growing. That's what happened with Cass. Her speech centers were wired to read body language like spoken language because of her training. Her neural pathways grew that way naturally. That's why she was mute and it's been hinted that her continued illiteracy is a side-effect of it as well. It's on the border of making her meta, but it's not really because it isn't a mutation, it's training.

pureclint

09-30-2005, 12:16 PM

Reading your opponent body movements isn't outside the realm of martial arts. Shiva does it, Batman does it, heck, even real life martial artists do it. The thing is: they can do it to a limited extent, because none have ever achieved the level of body-reading Cassandra has, and that is because none have ever had the kind of training she had. But that level is still possible for any DCU human to achieve, if going through said training.

I think it IS out of the degree to which a normal person could do, training or no. Picking up weight shifts and foot placement is a lot different then how her ability is described.

Again, it's not a power. She CAN use this ability because it's a 100% natural ability. Slade's speed/reflexes/strenght/agility, on the other hand, were artificially enhanced.
.

So if Slade or Character X's powers were natural, like Lobo, Jade or Superman its ok to use them but because he got enhanced later on it is not?

Yet again I am not saying Metas, or those with super duper body language training, should NOT count you just need to take into consideration there other abilities. Cassandra's skill/power of reading anothers body language to the degree she does is NOT a martial arts skill and with out it her fighting ability drops a considerable amount. No?

That's what happened with Cass. Her speech centers were wired to read body language like spoken language because of her training. Her neural pathways grew that way naturally. That's why she was mute and it's been hinted that her continued illiteracy is a side-effect of it as well. It's on the border of making her meta, but it's not really because it isn't a mutation, it's training.

Ok thank you for proving my point she is not normal.

If it grew that way naturally how exactly is that training?

And stop with the DCU does not equal real life arguement guys, thats rather obvious but it does not make them normal humans either.

Guts/Batman

09-30-2005, 01:21 PM

Yes, but Slade is legit meta. He moves faster, reacts quicker and is stronger than any normal person COULD be.

In addition, Metzer let Deathstroke's jobbber aura expand to crazy levels in that fight in IDC.

xnef1025

09-30-2005, 01:45 PM

Ok thank you for proving my point she is not normal.

If it grew that way naturally how exactly is that training?

Missed my point. Kids in other countries grow up bilingual. I didn't grow up bilingual. Does that make those kids metas? No. It means they were exposed to and taught to understand multiple languages. Thier brains became hardwired with those languages while they developed. Cass was exposed to and taught to understand bodylanguage like spoken word. Her brain was hardwired with that "language" while it developed. Not real world science, but it doesn't fall under meta category either.

pureclint

09-30-2005, 01:55 PM

Missed my point. Kids in other countries grow up bilingual. I didn't grow up bilingual. Does that make those kids metas? No. It means they were exposed to and taught to understand multiple languages. Thier brains became hardwired with those languages while they developed. Cass was exposed to and taught to understand bodylanguage like spoken word. Her brain was hardwired with that "language" while it developed. Not real world science, but it doesn't fall under meta category either.

I am not a speech therapist but I do not think it works that way.

It is above and beyond a normal, DCU or not, language skill. Training time be damned.

If EVERY person in the DCU universe can do this, why has no evil character like Ra's or Vandal Savage (who have plenty of time) or government trained hundreds of super bad ass ninja types who can own just about everyone on the planet because they can read body language like a music sheet?

That aside, trying ot gauge her actual fighting skills with out this ability:

I do have a question related to her, now I do not read her book monthly, but has she ever lost this ability? How many fights has she had when it was not useable outside of Deathstroke (were it really limited her effectivness to not be able to read him, and was it his training that prevented her from understanding his movements?)?

ouiyahtsiouiyah

09-30-2005, 04:34 PM

Deathstroke ius just superbadass and thats all there is too it.

Batgirls ability is supposed to be a natural ability she learned thru training from David Cain. It does gibe her meta stats just like it gives Natman Meta stats from his training. But other than that they are all natural without any enhancements.

And try to remember that we are reading ComicBooks.

Anyway Batman is in the Top Tier level of the DCU right now. I am not going to rank them because IMO the fights would be too close to call. But Shiva Batman and Batgirl are all within the top tier, (among others of course)

Guts/Batman

09-30-2005, 04:44 PM

I remember we are reading comic books all the time but when DC tells us that Batman and Batgirl are not metahumans or ringers, that stretches fans "Suspension of Disbelief" off the chart.

ouiyahtsiouiyah

09-30-2005, 06:27 PM

Tony Ja could be Batman. Thats not too disbeleiving

DracoMalfoy

09-30-2005, 08:28 PM

The greatest martial artist is Karate Kid.

Also I think Wonder Woman and Hipployta belong near the top.

Guts/Batman

09-30-2005, 08:42 PM

True. Diana was owning Shiva when they sparred.

Of course, that's only sparring.

Sean Whitmore

09-30-2005, 08:55 PM

True. Diana was owning Shiva when they sparred.

Wonder Woman met Shiva? When was this?

SEAN

The Shadow

09-30-2005, 08:57 PM

Wonder Woman met Shiva? When was this?

SEAN
Yeah... I don't ever recall that

Guts/Batman

09-30-2005, 08:58 PM

Wonder Woman met Shiva? When was this?

SEAN

I thought I saw a scan of it somewhere. On the Rumbles board maybe of WW sparring with a few villains including Killer Croc and Shiva and someone else. It looked pretty recent.

Dunno where the scan is though.

Onimaru

09-30-2005, 09:12 PM

You have to consider Cassandra's body language reading is similiar to the way a blind person's senses are heightened. Blind people hear/smell/etc better because there is no sense of sight to take innate priority. In Cassandra's case, since she was deprived of language for the most part, the parts of her brain that would develop into understanding written and spoken words developed into reading body language at a higher level than arguably anyone else instead.

It'd be like if you grew up with your right arm bound. You'd be immensely talented with your life out of necessity. Hence her hard time reading, writing, etc

And Wonder Woman I don't think counts. While she's definitely better trained than say, Superman (i.e. if they were both reduced to normal human strength levels, she could probably demolish Clark) but she was BORN (er...molded?) super strong. If she found herself fighting on normal human levels via a strength decrease, she'd have to rearrange her entire fighting style and in the meantime, could probably even get beaten up by a weenie like Nightwing

ouiyahtsiouiyah

09-30-2005, 09:38 PM

WW is a badass MA. One time she didn't have her powers and she took on a hoard of demons with some melee weapons and killed then all.

Kinda samething with Batman killing a hoard of depowered Doomsday's with an Axe, but that was Loeb so.......ya know

Sean Whitmore

09-30-2005, 09:54 PM

I thought I saw a scan of it somewhere. On the Rumbles board maybe of WW sparring with a few villains including Killer Croc and Shiva and someone else. It looked pretty recent.

Sparring as in practicing? I wonder why the villains would agree to that, and not just try to kill WW. Still, sounds interesting...without her strength, I'd love to see how Diana would fare against Shiva.

SEAN

Guts/Batman

09-30-2005, 10:05 PM

Sparring as in practicing? I wonder why the villains would agree to that, and not just try to kill WW. Still, sounds interesting...without her strength, I'd love to see how Diana would fare against Shiva.

SEAN

Yea sparring as in practicing.

Didn't look like she was using her powers. They were trying pretty hard but she was owning them pretty good.

Absalom

09-30-2005, 11:17 PM

Originally posted by pureclint

I think it IS out of the degree to which a normal person could do, training or no. Picking up weight shifts and foot placement is a lot different then how her ability is described.
We weren't talking whether is out of degree or not. You said body reading can't be related to martial arts. I proved it can, even in real life. Point over.
And the only people who gets to decide what a "normal person" can do in comics are the writers. They said she's human, and that her body reading skills are 100% natural. Deal with it.
So if Slade or Character X's powers were natural, like Lobo, Jade or Superman its ok to use them but because he got enhanced later on it is not?
Lobo: alien.
Superman: alien.
Jade: metahuman.
Yet again I am not saying Metas, or those with super duper body language training, should NOT count you just need to take into consideration there other abilities. Cassandra's skill/power of reading anothers body language to the degree she does is NOT a martial arts skill and with out it her fighting ability drops a considerable amount.
Any martial artist would have a drop in his fighting if he couldn't trust his own experience. Anyway, her body reading skills are just a part of the totality of her fighting skills.
It is above and beyond a normal, DCU or not, language skill. Training time be damned.
What is possible or beyond for a DCU human to do is up to the writer, not you.
If EVERY person in the DCU universe can do this, why has no evil character like Ra's or Vandal Savage (who have plenty of time) or government trained hundreds of super bad ass ninja types who can own just about everyone on the planet because they can read body language like a music sheet?
Because David Cain was the first to think about it ever.

pureclint

09-30-2005, 11:45 PM

We weren't talking whether is out of degree or not. You said body reading can't be related to martial arts. I proved it can, even in real life. Point over.

No the point might be over if you actually quoted me correctly. I have never said it is not related, I said her skill is out side of the realm of martial arts, and it is because it is far and above what everyone else, even those dedicated to martial arts in the DCU, can do.

And the only people who gets to decide what a "normal person" can do in comics are the writers. They said she's human, and that her body reading skills are 100% natural. Deal with it.

Lobo: alien.
Superman: alien.
Jade: metahuman.

Natural to her. Just like Superman's strength is natural to him and Jade's powers are natural to her. That was the gist of the question, people are so quick to disqualify certain characters because they have more "natural" speed but not question Cassandra's skills even though she has more "natural" reading ability?

Thats a nice double standard.

Any martial artist would have a drop in his fighting if he couldn't trust his own experience. Anyway, her body reading skills are just a part of the totality of her fighting skills.

And Slade's speed, strength and mental boost are part of his, yet he is quickly eliminated because of them.

What is possible or beyond for a DCU human to do is up to the writer, not you.

Ahh sorry I forgot that writers are 100% correct and nothing is ever changed in comics. My bad.

Because David Cain was the first to think about it ever.

While its a acceptable reason, I hope that the info never gets out. Of course to me thinking Cain is the only person ever in the history of mankind to think of it, makes it more implausable.

Absalom

10-01-2005, 12:12 AM

Originally posted by pureclint

No the point might be over if you actually quoted me correctly. I have never said it is not related, I said her skill is out side of the realm of martial arts, and it is because it is far and above what everyone else, even those dedicated to martial arts in the DCU, can do.
Outside the realm = not related in any sort.

And she's far above everyone else in that department because no one have ever had the kind of training she went through, which is basicaly what I've been saying all along when I said

So everything they do (even the body reading) is within the realm of possibility for any DCU human to do, IF said human ever get the level of training they had.

No one was ever trained like Cassandra before, but that doesn't dismiss her being 100% normal.
Natural to her. Just like Superman's strength is natural to him and Jade's powers are natural to her. That was the gist of the question, people are so quick to disqualify certain characters because they have more "natural" speed but not question Cassandra's skills even though she has more "natural" reading ability?
Superman and Jade aren't HUMAN martial artists, y'know. The point of the metahumans being out of the top ranking is because none of their feats were done based purely on fighting skills.

She's not metahuman, and her body-reading isn't a power, but a skill. If anyone's trying to pass a double-standard here, it's you.
And Slade's speed, strength and mental boost are part of his, yet he is quickly eliminated because of them.
Slade's speed, strenght and mental boost are not part of his fighting skills. They're part of the physical enhancements given by the serum.
Ahh sorry I forgot that writers are 100% correct and nothing is ever changed in comics. My bad.
Apology accepted.

After all, when a specific character is constantly written in such a way by all writers of said character, and that way also isn't contradicted by other writers, and they all agree this character is a normal human... yeah, that's pretty much canon.

Arkham Resident

10-01-2005, 01:14 AM

I think we should consider everybody in DCU , meta or not, in the list.

Martial arts is a discipline or a fighting system ,hence, its an applied skill. The greatest martial artist for me is the one who can effectively apply that skill ,in actual combat. Whether they are enhanced, under a serum, can read body language, has superhuman strength or what have you.

I agree. Deathstroke, Dragon ,Black Canary, Wildcat should be there.

But Superman?? can he be considered a martial artist?

Also, about Wildcat.. how influential was he in Batman's fighting skill?

The Shadow

10-01-2005, 01:29 AM

Also, about Wildcat.. how influential was he in Batman's fighting skill?
He taught Bruce how to box

Chad G.

10-01-2005, 08:06 AM

I believe the Dc Encyclopedia plainly lists in Nightwins attribute list: Second only to Batman in hand to hand combat.

The Shadow

10-01-2005, 09:11 AM

I believe the Dc Encyclopedia plainly lists in Nightwins attribute list: Second only to Batman in hand to hand combat.
People don't seem to care what DC thinks... the same Encyclopedia says Batgirl is the best martial artist in the DCU (which I pointed out on page 1).

Absalom

10-01-2005, 10:29 AM

Originally posted by Arkham Resident

Martial arts is a discipline or a fighting system ,hence, its an applied skill. The greatest martial artist for me is the one who can effectively apply that skill ,in actual combat. Whether they are enhanced, under a serum, can read body language, has superhuman strength or what have you.

I agree. Deathstroke, Dragon ,Black Canary, Wildcat should be there.
By that thought, any John Doe with barely any martial art skill, given a connection to the speed-force, would become the better martial artist on the planet, because (thanks only to the speed-force) he'd be able to apply his little knowledge on martial arts in a combat situation more effectively than people that'd crush him under normal circumstances, like Lady Shiva.

I didn't said Slade should be totally disregarded. What I've said is that, since the point of the thread is to see "who's the better martial artist" and not "who's the better fighting machine", he should be ranked by the skills he had before he got enhanced. Black-Canary is on the list exactly because she spent years without her powers, and had to actually learn a lot of hand-to-hand to keep herself alive in the superhero business.
But Superman?? can he be considered a martial artist?
Going by the way you put it: Yes.
Even if he has a limited knowledge on hand-to-hand combat, thanks to his invulnerability/superstrenght/superspeed he can apply it more effectively in combat than people like Batman.

pureclint

10-01-2005, 12:58 PM

Outside the realm = not related in any sort.

And she's far above everyone else in that department because no one have ever had the kind of training she went through, which is basicaly what I've been saying all along when I said

What martial art is it that gave her the ability to read people again?

None. It is a ability that she can use in any instance. It was not in any martial arts class, even by Cain, since everyone is saying it is more like a language skill.

The ability she has is outside the realm of martial arts, or else Richard Dragon and Shiva would have it (unless they do I and I am not aware of it).

No one was ever trained like Cassandra before, but that doesn't dismiss her being 100% normal.

She's not metahuman, and her body-reading isn't a power, but a skill. If anyone's trying to pass a double-standard here, it's you.

No, I am saying it needs to be taken into account when looking at her martial arts skill. It is why I have asked a few times, outside of the fight with Slade when he blocked the ability (was it his skill that did that?) has she ever gone into a fight with out it and relied purely on her martial arts knowledge?

I liken her to Iron Fist, he is a normal human but he has been trained in a way that gives him a unique ability far above what other normal humans can do. Making them both a meta in my eye, again in DCU Firefly is now a Meta and all he has is a nice Flamethrower.

Slade's speed, strenght and mental boost are not part of his fighting skills. They're part of the physical enhancements given by the serum.

His mind is a huge part of his fighting skills. Who doesn't think when they fight?

He strength and speed also affect his skills, if you suddenly got super speed you would have to retrain every skill/ability you have.

So if a big muscular Greco Roman wrestler gets a hold of some skinny Kung Fu guy, you do not think his strength would be part of his fighting ability?

Look I think your missing the point of all of this. We see these who is the beter fighter threads every once in a while and I am just adding in extra questions to spice it up. If all things were equal in a fight (strength speed size etc) as Shadow says she is the best, as I already said she is right with Shiva/Dragon when ranked (wayyyyy back in my first post in the thread).

I am curious how she would be with out the ability, and saying it needs to be thought of. It is why I am curious about how Slade blocked her ability.

Absalom

10-01-2005, 03:14 PM

Originally posted by pureclint

What martial art is it that gave her the ability to read people again?
The one invented by David Cain, which requires the student to begin his/her training before he/she even learns to speak.
It is a ability that she can use in any instance.
She can use it in any instance because she learned it from her martial arts trainings.
The ability she has is outside the realm of martial arts, or else Richard Dragon and Shiva would have it (unless they do I and I am not aware of it).
Dragon and Shiva didn't have the kind of training Cassandra had. More important than that, they must've began their training at a very early age indeed, but nothing indicates that it'd predate even when they first learned to speak.
has she ever gone into a fight with out it and relied purely on her martial arts knowledge?
When she fought the Joker, and some robot.
I liken her to Iron Fist, he is a normal human but he has been trained in a way that gives him a unique ability far above what other normal humans can do.
Iron Fist's power comes from his training with chi on a mystical dimension where he was given the spiritual power of a dragon.

Cassandra's skills are 100% natural.

See the difference ?
His mind is a huge part of his fighting skills. Who doesn't think when they fight?
His brain was also enhanced by the serum. Not natural.
He strength and speed also affect his skills, if you suddenly got super speed you would have to retrain every skill/ability you have.
Not if your brain would also be enhanced, which would enhance your perception. Basically, if you suddenly got superspeed, you'd have the same skills you had before, and wouldn't need to retrain them because you could just use them on much slower people.
So if a big muscular Greco Roman wrestler gets a hold of some skinny Kung Fu guy, you do not think his strength would be part of his fighting ability?
As long as they were 100% human, sure.
It is why I am curious about how Slade blocked her ability.
Well, even with all the enhancements given by the serum, Slade's reputation is STILL not known for fighting clean.

Gingold

10-01-2005, 04:00 PM

What about Klukor, that ancient Kryptonian martial art that Lois Lane used to know? I bet she'd kick Batman's ass. :)

Guts/Batman

10-01-2005, 04:30 PM

People don't seem to care what DC thinks... the same Encyclopedia says Batgirl is the best martial artist in the DCU (which I pointed out on page 1).

Exactly.

That is why when we use debates in Rumbles we don't use DC or Marvel Encyclopedias, we use what they do in the comics as evidence.

Sean Whitmore

10-01-2005, 05:21 PM

palaeomerus

10-01-2005, 07:13 PM

Slade is sort of supposed to be a commentary on Captain America. He's a "super soldier" at the absolute peak of human ability due to the serum. Unlike Cap he went bad fairly early after becoming too unstable for the government to sanction him in sensitive operations.

He took the serum when he volunteered for a program to test a drug that was supposed to help a captured soldier to resist the effects of truth serums. In the DC explanation the major enhancement of the serum was that it vastly improved his brain functions to give him a sort of highly developed intuition that approaches prescience. Thus Deathstroke is unaturally aware of his surroundings and their implications. He sees patterns that would escape and ordinary mind. The enhancement to his brain also increased his motor skills exponentially. And it appears to have made him stronger than most men can become as a sort of super steroid.

The problem is that his "mental improvement" is founded on a common but false canard that was going around in the eighties that humans only use 10% of their brain. Supposedly Slade's serum unlocked the other 90% giving him a 100% active mind. Of course NOW we know thanks to PET scans that you use different parts of your brain for different activities and that while you might not use all of it at any one time it nonetheless is all used at one time or another. But in the 80's it was a pretty cool explanation.

Slade's serum appears to have caused mutations within his kids. Joseph was able to jump from one body to another through eye contact. Rose has an ACTUAL short term prescience resembling Spider-Man's danger sense that let's her anticipate her opponent's actions. Grant had no powers naturally but in exchange for a contract to kill the teen titans he convinced the criminal organization H.I.V.E. to give him powers similar to but even greater than his father's (though they proved to be fatal to him after a short period).

pureclint

10-01-2005, 09:05 PM

The one invented by David Cain, which requires the student to begin his/her training before he/she even learns to speak.

It still sounds like a language skill not a martial art form. As follows:

Instead, the parts of her brain normally used for speech were trained so she could read other people's movements and body language and predict, with uncanny accuracy, their next move. This ability lives up to her namesake; Cassandra in Greek mythology had the gift of seeing into the future, but was cursed so that nobody would ever believe her predictions. This closely relates to Cassandra's capability of 'seeing' her opponents next move at the cost of being (initially) unable to speak. This also caused her brain to develop learning functions different than most, a form of dyslexia that hampers her ability to read and write.

This is interesting, she DID loose the ability for a while and got her ass kicked:

After an encounter with a telepath, he "rewired" her brain to think with words (although speaking properly took longer), but at the cost of her ability to predict and read people. Unable to defend herself (although she could still perform the moves, she was now being caught permanently off-guard in combat), Batman stopped her using the costume, and told her to train herself. After an encounter with Lady Shiva, Cassandra realized that Shiva could "read" people the way she herself could do before, and convinced Shiva to teach her how to read people again - the cost being that, one year later, the two would fight to the death. Preferring to be "perfect for a year," than "mediocre for a lifetime," Cassandra accepted and Shiva retaught her in a night.

One year later, Cassandra kept the appointment - and died within minutes. Then Shiva restarted her heart, having realized that Cassandra wanted to die (although not why), and wanted a fight Cassandra would try to win. In the ensuing battle, Cassandra realised that Shiva had her own death wish, and defeated Shiva, although she spared Shiva's life.

Dragon and Shiva didn't have the kind of training Cassandra had. More important than that, they must've began their training at a very early age indeed, but nothing indicates that it'd predate even when they first learned to speak.

As above it seems Shiva has the same ability to a degree.

When she fought the Joker, and some robot.

So Joker can block it to? How did she do in these fights?

Iron Fist's power comes from his training with chi on a mystical dimension where he was given the spiritual power of a dragon.

Cassandra's skills are 100% natural.

See the difference ?

His brain was also enhanced by the serum. Not natural.

I was unaware of Fist getting a bunch of abilities from a dragon. For whatever reason I thought the Iron Fist was a manifestation of his Chi do to extensive training. Something it seems like anyone would be able to do.

Cassandra's skill is not natural but learned. I am curious if anyone can become as good as her with it though.

Not if your brain would also be enhanced, which would enhance your perception. Basically, if you suddenly got superspeed, you'd have the same skills you had before, and wouldn't need to retrain them because you could just use them on much slower people.

Even if you brain functions sped up a lot of normal actions would have to be relearned. Like the process of turning pages in a book, you could not do that the same way or it would rip. Thats what I was talking about, I am sure even how you interacted with normal slower people would take some new learning to do properly.

As long as they were 100% human, sure.

WHy does it matter if they are natural? Slades strength is still his and he has tons of skill pre and post serum. Sure some guys get a unfair advantage but rating JUST skill becomes hard for a few reasons, especially because not every one physicality is equal. In real world terms Cassandra would have a real hard time beating Bruce in a one on one fight even though she might be a bit better.

Well, even with all the enhancements given by the serum, Slade's reputation is STILL not known for fighting clean.

Still does not explain how she could not read his actions. He was completly unpredictable to her. I think it was his skill.

pureclint

10-01-2005, 09:21 PM

This seems as good a place as any to admit...

I have no idea who Richard Dragon is.

I never even heard of him before the recent Dixon series, and even that I didn't read.

What exactly is his claim to being on top of the martial artist list? Who have we seen him beat? Is he self-taught, or did he study under different masters ala Batman?

SEAN

He is a 70 Martial Arts character recently brought back in a cool Series by Dixon and McDaniel. He has trained Batman, Huntress, the Question with Shiva and Bronze Tiger.

In the 2004/05 Richard Dragon miniseries, Richard Dragon managed to maneuver Shiva in position so that he could kill her with the Leopard Blow, but was blindsided by Shiva's henchmen before he could strike. Shiva was enraged, and demanded that they not interfere further. The fight began again, and this time, Shiva managed to kill Dragon using the Leopard Blow.

However it seems Richard let her kill him as he had a deal with Neron (I think).

Sean Whitmore

10-01-2005, 09:36 PM

He is a 70 Martial Arts character recently brought back in a cool Series by Dixon and McDaniel. He has trained Batman, Huntress, the Question with Shiva and Bronze Tiger.

He was one of Batman's trainers? From what I've seen of him (really just McDaniel's covers) he looks to be about Bruce's age himself.

However it seems Richard let her kill him as he had a deal with Neron (I think).

Neron? I'm glad to see he's still puttering around the DCU in some form.

Ahh, the Leopard Blow. I remember that from Knightsend. Dixon surely does love his own continuity. :)

SEAN

Absalom

10-01-2005, 09:45 PM

Originally posted by palaeomerus

Slade is sort of supposed to be a commentary on Captain America. He's a "super soldier" at the absolute peak of human ability due to the serum.
The thing is that Slade is not peak human. The serum made his strenght/speed/reflexes/perception/stamina/agility blatant superhuman AND also gave him a healing-factor.

Guts/Batman

10-01-2005, 09:54 PM

The thing is that Slade is not peak human. The serum made his strenght/speed/reflexes/perception/stamina/agility blatant superhuman AND also gave him a healing-factor.

I thought that happened "by accident". Or so I heard.

Absalom

10-01-2005, 10:13 PM

Originally posted by pureclint

It still sounds like a language skill not a martial art form.
A language skill that can only be developed through martial arts training. And it's natural because there's no natural law saying the human brain can only develop it's speech centers to spoken and written languages. It can develop into other kinds of language. David Cain realized that.
This is interesting, she DID loose the ability for a while and got her ass kicked:
Geez, she got confused during a fight... could it be from that telepath rewiring her brain, forcing her mind to work on a way it had never worked before, with a kind of language that was, seconds ago, completely alien to her ?

I think most people would also get quite disoriented.
As above it seems Shiva has the same ability to a degree.
Yeah, but not to the same degree AND the fact she learned in one night what must've taken Shiva years of experience. It was only a matter of relearning what she used to know instinctively.
So Joker can block it to? How did she do in these fights?
Joker's so unworldly crazy his body doesn't follow any language patterns. He manage to hit her because Cassandra, who not ever thought such a thing would be possible, couldn't believe her own eyes.
Against the robot, she had to struggle. But again, so would most humans.
I was unaware of Fist getting a bunch of abilities from a dragon. For whatever reason I thought the Iron Fist was a manifestation of his Chi do to extensive training. Something it seems like anyone would be able to do.
Most humans wouldn't be able to defeat Colossus, one-punch Luke Cage into KO, move about as fast as Spider-Man, or rip through vibranium. That's blatant superhuman.
Even if you brain functions sped up a lot of normal actions would have to be relearned. Like the process of turning pages in a book, you could not do that the same way or it would rip. Thats what I was talking about, I am sure even how you interacted with normal slower people would take some new learning to do properly.
Maybe, but I'm not talking about how he reads his books. I'm talking about how he fights, and for that, there'd be no need for retraining.
WHy does it matter if they are natural? Slades strength is still his and he has tons of skill pre and post serum. Sure some guys get a unfair advantage but rating JUST skill becomes hard for a few reasons, especially because not every one physicality is equal.
By that logic, Clark Kent and Wally West are among the best martial artists on the planet.
In real world terms Cassandra would have a real hard time beating Bruce in a one on one fight even though she might be a bit better.
She moves faster. She hits harder. She's more agile. She's more skilled. She can antecipate better.

In real world terms, if conditions remain the same, she'd still kick his ass.
Still does not explain how she could not read his actions. He was completly unpredictable to her. I think it was his skill.
Well, either Slade cheated somehow (which would be totally in-character for him)...

... or the writer remembered, this week, that Slade has low-level superhuman speed, like Spider-Man...

... or she simply jobbed to him.

palaeomerus

10-01-2005, 11:27 PM

The thing is that Slade is not peak human. The serum made his strenght/speed/reflexes/perception/stamina/agility blatant superhuman AND also gave him a healing-factor.

Since the serum jacked up the sleeping part of his brain it IS the peak of human ability that normal humans can't reach.

If you want to call him meta in the powers sense then he's barely meta physically. He doesn't throw cars. He doesn't grow his limbs back(which the term healing factor has been pushed to). He doesn't see fifty miles away. He is super human in agility except he isn't. Going toe to toe with Bat girl he toyed with her by not being predictable by her "body language reading" because he could "say" things much more subtley and abruptly or concisely than anyone she had fought before.

She could probably learn his body language given enough time but she described him as saying too many things at once with his movement for her to fully understand it. Obviously he's not interested in sparring with her to give her the ability to lessen his advantage.

But Slade doesn't seem significantly more acrobatic than her. His brain just out thinks hers and his body matches those thoughts perfectly and moves more economically. She reads possibilities based on a person's posture and he had too many possibilities going through his motion too rapidly for her to follow. he outhinks her and so he can out move her.

Deathstroke doesn't typically move like a Spider-man nor punch someone seven times before they hit the ground. He doesn't really catch bullets. He does catch arrows but even stuntmen in the real world do that. To me his superhumanity seems subtle. He's stronger than a weightlifter but not hugely ...maybe by fifty pounds or so(Daredevil range). He's got quickdraw refelxes but he's not like Northstar from Alpha flight with a vibro-punch. Really he's a lot like the classic Black Panther but more competent in combat. (Which makes him at around Cap's level but possibly with fewer tactical mistakes and a deadlier approach.)

His fast healing seems to be of the "fast clotting blood and controlling pain and fatigue with his advanced brain through the release of endophins" type and "regulating the pulse and blood oxygen levels though techniques not normally available to normal humans". He's like a very well trained prodigy ninja who is "ON" all the time. But his teeth stay knocked out and his eye isn't growing back. He can't just unbreak his leg after it gets shattered. He can set it and it will probably heal well enough to use again and rather quickly at that but then that's probably true of Jimmy Olsen as well. (Not so much poor Barbara Gordon though).

And he's recently got a coat of the bad ass polish in Identity Crisis where they showed him whupping up on a nerfed JLA beat down squad with timing and coordination of attacks and GA still stabbed him in his bad eye. Before that he often seemed to take as well as he gave with the Titans.

Tsoul

10-01-2005, 11:41 PM

By all your definitions all the people in DBZ are not Meta Human.

Absalom

10-01-2005, 11:45 PM

Originally posted by palaeomerus

His fast healing seems to be of the "fast clotting blood and controlling pain and fatigue with his advanced brain through the release of endophins" type and "regulating the pulse and blood oxygen levels though techniques not normally available to normal humans".
His healing-factor can regenerate his body even from death.

Not something the brain could exactly "regulate".

Lester C.

10-01-2005, 11:49 PM

Getting back to the topic of the thread I think Batman is the most skilled martial artist in the whole DCU as the result of his training. However there are others that are far more talented than bats and are hence much better than him.

palaeomerus

10-01-2005, 11:51 PM

His healing-factor can regenerate his body even from death.

Not something the brain could exactly "regulate".

But his eye is still pretty out. At least he has a cyber eye in there now. Funny that. EH? I mean it was just his mean old wife with a gun after Joey got cut(pre-Wildebeast society of course...).

Bleah. That whole Steve Dayton thing was horse %#$&. So was the ressurection psychosis and the blood transfusion with Addie and her going psycho and joining H.I.V.E.

Pffft. Sounds like a Lazurus pit implant or something goofy like that. How exactly did he de youth BTW? I mean it's not like Dick and the Titans got 20 years older...

Guts/Batman

10-01-2005, 11:58 PM

By all your definitions all the people in DBZ are not Meta Human.

Maybe the pure blooded Saiyans and mixed blood saiyans, but the humans (such as Krillin, Yajirobe, Yamcha) are not metahumans by the strict definition of the word.

They don't hold the "metahuman gene" that gives them the ability to shoot energy beams. They are merely able to access their ki and use it as offense.

If Bruce or Cassandra (who is blatently metahuman), had DBZ physics working for them, they would be by far the most powerful and dangerous fighters in all of DCU.

J Harper

10-02-2005, 12:40 AM

I think we should consider everybody in DCU , meta or not, in the list.

In that case Orion is quite likely at the top, or so close that and difference in skill between him and the top dog are marginal at best.

Someone described Walt Simonson's Orion as 'beastly' when it comes to power. I think I like that term.

Jeremy Harper

Sean Whitmore

10-02-2005, 12:46 AM

Bleah. That whole Steve Dayton thing was horse %#$&. So was the ressurection psychosis and the blood transfusion with Addie and her going psycho and joining H.I.V.E.

:confused:

Quick recap for we who didn't read Deathstroke's book?

SEAN

Lester C.

10-02-2005, 01:09 AM

If Bruce or Cassandra (who is blatently metahuman), had DBZ physics working for them, they would be by far the most powerful and dangerous fighters in all of DCU.

If you read early issues plus Batgirl secret files you find out that her blood was tested and it contains no metagene or whatever the hell metahumans have that grants them abilities far beyond those of the ordinary folks of DCU.

palaeomerus

10-02-2005, 02:31 AM

:confused:

Quick recap for we who didn't read Deathstroke's book?

SEAN

Just do a quick google for Deathstroke and it'll turn up on a fan page or two.

Basically Deathstroke reforms and his wife goes crazy. He saves the president form a fake senator with a bomb but is accused of trying to kill the president instead and it turns out that Steve Dayton is cloning people to take over the world. The 2nd Vigilante helps him to clear his name but he gets shot up, dies, and then un-dies. He finds out that he can't die but that he comes back crazy when he un-dies. Then it turns out that his exwife can also undie because she had a blood transfusion from him(when his brother in law became Ravager II and tried to break up the family) and that's why she went super Jean Loring crazy. Then he gets younger and finds out that his wife is the leader of H.I.V.E. THEN he starts to lose his memory. About this time he finds out that Rose is his daughter. He decides that he's too damned unstable to raise her.

Then he finds out that his mute son, who he reluctantly killed(at his request), who used to be a Titan, but was corrupted by bad dead people from the remains of the city of Azarath, who made him found the Wildebeast society, is still "alive" in Azerath as an astral entity who still has the power to possess people with eye contact.

He gets possessed and he ends up being taken over by his son who makes him kill Wintergreen who says that he rather expected Slade to kill him eventually and he hangs Wintergreen's head on a hunting plaque in his trophy room. Weirdly he is no longer young here and the immortality thing seems to be dropped. He attacks the titans under the control of his son to prove that they should not be fighting bad guys since they are kids. She shotguns Impulse/Kid Flash II's knee point blank and threatens to kill a titan if they won't quit to PROVE how dangerous being a super hero is.

During the fighting Jericho/Joseph (who is bodiless) gets thrown out of him and tries to possess cyborg records who just him in his robot eye as a file that he can hopefully be reconstituted from and reformed at some future date.

At the end of it Slade goes back to being a merc on the darkside and adopts his now half psycho daughter who gouges out her eye so he'll know that she's serious about wanting to join him. Then he gets into a scrap with the JLA who are looking for Doctor Light following the Dibney murder and after that decides that it's time to join the new Secret Society of Super Villains that Lex is putting together because there is safety in numbers witht he Super heroes going all ape.

THEN he ends up mentoring a dejected, unstable, and quite possibly schitzophrenic Nightwing into Super-Mercenary/villaindom provided that he trains Rose (Ravager III) well enough that he can survive without her daddy in the big mad world of super mercenary butt kicking.

Really Deathstroke has had a bizarre "swerving" career in the comics. I think he may be a plot hole elemental.

Sean Whitmore

10-02-2005, 02:45 AM

Basically Deathstroke reforms and his wife goes crazy. He saves the president form a fake senator with a bomb but is accused of trying to kill the president instead and it turns out that Steve Dayton is cloning people to take over the world. The 2nd Vigilante helps him to clear his name but he gets shot up, dies, and then un-dies. He finds out that he can't die but that he comes back crazy when he un-dies. Then it turns out that his exwife can also undie because she had a blood transfusion from him(when his brother in law became Ravager II and tried to break up the family) and that's why she went super Jean Loring crazy. Then he gets younger and finds out that his wife is the leader of H.I.V.E. THEN he starts to lose his memory. About this time he finds out that Rose is his daughter. He decides that he's too damned unstable to raise her.

I knew about all the stuff in Titans, but this...wow. Evil Steve Dayton? Evil Addie? Slade can't die? The 90s was a wacky place...

SEAN

palaeomerus

10-02-2005, 03:11 AM

I knew about all the stuff in Titans, but this...wow. Evil Steve Dayton? Evil Addie? Slade can't die? The 90s was a wacky place...

SEAN

Yeah. First his Mento helmet drove him nuts and he ended up in a wheel chair, grew a beard and pretended to be the new Chief and started a group of villains called the Hybrid as a new Doom patrol who routinely tried to kill Changeling a lot because Steve blamed his foster son for the death of the Doom Patrol(as opposed to say Captain Zahl). Weird huh? THEN when the Titans actually cured his madness rushed he right out installed Mento helmet tech directly into his BRAIN which screwed him up again only worse.

Then he called him self the Crimelord, tried to take over the world and tried to fuse himself with the world wide web with a super computer AI thing. But he ended up floating in "cyber space" at the end. Sort of like the Lawnmower man but without all the phones ringing at the end.