Batman 645 *short review with spoilers*

[Guts/Batman]

Not a hell of alot happened in this issue.

Half rehashing memories of Jason Todd's time as Robin through the eyes of Alfred. And just Batman going over Jason Todd's coffin time and time and time again. Obsessively trying to figure out what had been done with the coffin.

Only to arrive at the conclusion that no body had ever been in the coffin despite Bruce and Alfred knowing that this was Jason's coffin.

Anyone else think we're dealing with an Alternate Earth's Jason Todd?

Damnit Winick!!!!

[Lester C.]

Winick’s run is losing any and all momentum it once held for me. I’m not blaming him as I’m sure the delays this book suffered and the War Crimes interruption was not his fault. Nevertheless I will drop this book if the next arc doesn't knock my socks off. With the price of everything going up I need to make some budgetary cutbacks and Batman might not be on my pull list for much longer despite the fact we finally have an artist worthy of the book.

[kash]

im the total opposite here. i have absolutley been loving judds run and this issue was no exception. winnick and mahnke are toally on their A game and this story that focussed on Jason back as Robin was touching. seeing the moment swhere Bruce was happy having a partner/someone to look up to him was touching as was it sad when bruce realised that bruce and jason would be nothing like bruce and dick

[Guts/Batman]

I just wish this story would go somewhere faster...

[Andy S.]

Thought it was a'ight.

I liked the flashback sequences and the moment where Bruce realizes that Jason was different than Dick.

The last panel where Bruce says theere was never a body in Jason's coffin really had me going "Huh?" Pretty cool, i want to see where it all ends up. I have a feeling that the payoff will not be as good as the setup, but whatever.

[TJ Shoun]

Please tell me that this isn't a true retcon.

Please tell me that Jason "really" died, was "really" buried, and this resurrection crap is tied into the all the wierdness surrounding Infinite Crisis.

Please tell me that after IC Jason will be dead again, as he is meant to be.

Please tell me the Citgo down the street is getting in more of those microwavable Hoagie Burgers.

[Converge]

I thought it was pretty good. Not amazing, but decent.

I never read A Death in the Family so I don't really care if Jason is dead or not.

[pureclint]

I liked the flashback stuff. You could see some more seeds planted of a lighter batman and the nice twist of no body. I am enjoying the arc so far and I dig it much more then anything else from Winicks keyboard I have read.

[cmndob]

Yeah I liked it. I think Winnick is actually doing a cool story about Jason, even if it is another Jason. This type of story where Bruce allowed himself to be happy, and perhaps turned a blind eye to some clues about Jason while also losing him... I dunno I think it does well to explain Bat-Ass without resorting to Year One stuff.

[AndyKoopa]

I thought this issue was decent. I really like Mahnke's art ,it fits perfect for a Bat title. I also liked the questions surrounding the corpseless coffin. But I also hope Winick moves the story along a little faster as basically nothing happened in this issue.

[Murrocko]

So what exactly did Batman do with Jasons body after he died.

[Guts/Batman]

So what exactly did Batman do with Jasons body after he died.

Probably put it in that coffin.

That's why I think we may be dealing with multiple Earth's.

[Murrocko]

Probably
That's why I think we may be dealing with multiple Earth's.
I hate that crap.

[Converge]

I'm really not seeing the multiple earths connection.

[Karl J. Barnes]

I'm really not seeing the multiple earths connection.

There's some contention of that being the case at the end of JLA #119 or some are specualting.

[Converge]

There's some contention of that being the case at the end of JLA #119 or some are specualting.

well i see it as far as IC is concerned (i.e psycho pirate, power girl, pariah, etc,...), but im really not seeing it with the Jason Todd thing.

[Karl J. Barnes]

well i see it as far as IC is concerned (i.e psycho pirate, power girl, pariah, etc,...), but im really not seeing it with the Jason Todd thing.

Me either, but one never knows with what has been happening in the DC universe. I'm still thinking that Ras took Jason's body, maybe even replacing the coffin with an identical one and putting Jason into the Lazureus Pits. But who knows..

[Guts/Batman]

I'm really not seeing the multiple earths connection.

If it is simple Lazarus Pits, then why was Batman 141 a Infinite Crisis tie-in?

[muimi]

I'll buy the "Multiple Earths" bit. Seems like that's where things are headed but... but... UGH.

[Lord Grog]

Me either, but one never knows with what has been happening in the DC universe. I'm still thinking that Ras took Jason's body, maybe even replacing the coffin with an identical one and putting Jason into the Lazureus Pits. But who knows..


Another problem is that they made a point that this was the exact same coffin that was buried, what with the sensors and all.

I'm curious to see how this all turns out, but I enjoyed it. This was a good issue. Nothing much happened, true, but a good read none the less.

[DMike]

I haven't seen anything in the Red Hood stories that would indicate he's from another Earth. I don't pay that much attention to this board anymore, but on other boards the main people who says Jason's from a different Earth base it mainly on the fact that they just don't like the character and don't want him to be alive again rather than on any actual evidence. At least with some of the characters in other titles that were mysteriously returned/resurrected had some kind of hint involved.

[Guts/Batman]

I think there are a few hints that this Jason is of another Earth:

1) His age. He is definitely older than when he died. And the dead don't age.

2) This issue I think puts forth the idea that the coffin didn't have Jason's body in it ever but Bruce knows that he put it in it. The same coffin has been in the ground the whole time since A Death in the Family.

He couldn't have just gotten out because there is literally no sign of anything in that coffin. Unless, we find out that Bruce didn't actually put him in that particular casket (which he says he did).

More evidence is needed, yes, but there are certainly hints that he is not of this Earth.

[Converge]

1) His age. He is definitely older than when he died. And the dead don't age.



They do if they weren't actually dead.

[Guts/Batman]

They do if they weren't actually dead.

True.

But he died. Batman said he was dead in A Death in the Family.

Unless, he got a dip in a Lazarus Pit unknown to Bruce (after he was put in his grave, which would contradict this story)...

[Converge]

True.

But he died. Batman said he was dead in A Death in the Family.

Unless, he got a dip in a Lazarus Pit unknown to Bruce (after he was put in his grave, which would contradict this story)...

Batman also said Tommy Elliot was dead in Hush. Things aren't always what they seem.

[Guts/Batman]

Batman also said Tommy Elliot was dead in Hush. Things aren't always what they seem.

He found out that was Clayface. But he didn't find a Clayfacve in the coffin either.

I don't think that he who wrote him A Death in the Family had a Clayface in A Death in the Family. I'm pretty sure we all know that was not a Clayface or that Jason was not alive.

Winick would have to have balls the size of Galactus to retcon Jason Todd's death A Death in the Family.

But how did "alive" Jason Todd get out of the casket in the ground when Bruce said he put him in the coffin, if he wasn't in there? And we know he wasn't in there.

Batman went over that coffin with so many devices and didn't find anything in there. He even ruled out the possibility that it couldn't be a duplicate coffin.

WTF?!?!!?

[TJ Shoun]

More evidence is needed, yes, but there are certainly hints that he is not of this Earth.

I agree with the "Returning Multiple Earths Theory" as an explanation -- especially after the end of JLA 119.

What I don't get is the mechanics of it. If the returning Jason Todd is of an alternate Earth, why is Jason's body missing in this one?

JLA 119 Spoilers













Can only one representation of a given character exist at a time? If so, then the "real" Supes would have vanished sometime in JLA 119. (Assuming that was an evil Superman who blew up J'onn in the Watchtower at the end.)

It certainly wasn't that way in Crisis on Infinite Earths. Alternate character versions co-mingled during the whole damn thing - nobody "disappeared".

I'm just trying to figure out why there's no body when all evidence suggests that it was never tampered with, Jason never escaped, and I'm pretty sure Winnick isn't retconing the death itself.

[xnef1025]

I'm sure Bruce didn't personally place the body in the casket or personally move the casket from the funeral home to the cemetary. It would be easy for the caskets to have gotten switched. The viewing casket(was there a viewing?) was taken, and an identical, empty casket was wheeled into the hearse and burried. That way, the casket Bruce examined is the one that was burried and was never tampered with.

[tymac]

Two questions.

Was Jason's body actually stolen/missing during the Hush storyline?

Why would it take the World's Greatest Detective so long to figure out that a body had never been in the casket? Even the best embalmed body decomposes over time.

[Guts/Batman]

Batman: "Why Jason? Why did you bring the boy into this?"

Riddler: "Question: How many times have you beaten me? Answers: Five. Ten. A hundred! But...Question:WHAT is Batman's greatest defeat?"

Riddler: "Answer: The death of Robin. Didn't like having your nose rubbed in it, did you?"

Batman: "His grave is empty. Where is Jason's body now?"

Riddler: "That IS the riddle isn't it?"

That is at the end of the Riddler and Batman's coversation before he punches him. So I am assuming that something happened to his body.

But Hush is...INSANELY convoluted so you don't know what is true and what is a lie coming out of that story.

[Calamas]

Winick’s run is losing any and all momentum it once held for me. I’m not blaming him as I’m sure the delays this book suffered and the War Crimes interruption was not his fault. . . .Though I can’t state it as a fact, I suspect that it is his fault, at least in part. Green Arrow and Outsiders, two of his other titles, have also had fill-ins recently. Unless something personal happened in his life, his creative attention has been clearly elsewhere.

[The Shadow]

Please tell me that this isn't a true retcon.

Please tell me that Jason "really" died, was "really" buried, and this resurrection crap is tied into the all the wierdness surrounding Infinite Crisis.

Please tell me that after IC Jason will be dead again, as he is meant to be.

Please tell me the Citgo down the street is getting in more of those microwavable Hoagie Burgers.
GOD I'm hating it too. Jason IS meant to be dead...horrible stuff. This was the type of filler issue I would expect between one creative team leaving and another coming onboard... not a filler issue by the current creative team.

I haven't been happy since Winick came onboard and this just reaffirms it. :mad:

On the plus side the art is sweeeeeeeeeeeeeeet!!!!!!!!!

[Guts/Batman]

GOD I'm hating it too. Jason IS meant to be dead...horrible stuff. This was the type of filler issue I would expect between one creative team leaving and another coming onboard... not a filler issue by the current creative team.

I haven't been happy since Winick came onboard and this just reaffirms it. :mad:

On the plus side the art is sweeeeeeeeeeeeeeet!!!!!!!!!

Agreed on the art.

Like I said, DiDio, Loeb, Johns and Winick must have the balls the size of Galactus to even think of retconning A Death in the Family.

[The Shadow]

I dunno I think it does well to explain Bat-Ass without resorting to Year One stuff.
There never was supose to BE a Bat-Ass... Bruce went kinda dark and moody after Jason died but that's when Tim figured out Batman NEEDED a Robin... to balance the darkness. It was suppose to mellow him and it did... for a time. The best thing Jason ever did was idie because it paved the way for Tim

[Captain Jim]

Personally, I'm still liking Winick's work on Batman. (I don't like all his stuff, but this is pretty good--and by far better than any of the other bat-titles at the moment, IMO.)

I never cared much for the Jason retcon that made him a creep, but at least Judd made that "stealing the wheels off the batmobile" story a bit more credible than it was originally.

I certainly would have voted against bringing Jason back, but so far, I'm liking what they're doing. Sure he was dead, but this *is* comic books. Nobody was ever any deader than Alfred was in 1964, and they brought him back. After that story, anything's possible.

[TJ Shoun]

No, I still don't think Winnick is retconning anything... not technically anyway.

I'm pretty sure that after it's all said and done, "A Death in the Family" will remain absolute, at least in its own timeline.

It's obvious this is all IC related.

Going from that, why would Jason's "real" body be gone just because an alternate universe Jason shows up?

It didn't work that way in Crisis on Infinite Earths.

And if the theories of multiple Luthors holds true here recently, then it makes even less sense, because they're both running around concurrently.

And yeah, I'll agree -- Mahnke and Ngyuen are an awesome fit here. Hope they stay.

[Andy S.]

If this REd Hood was Jason from another Earth, then wouldn't the *dead* Jason Todd from this Earth still be in his coffin?

[Converge]

If this REd Hood was Jason from another Earth, then wouldn't the *dead* Jason Todd from this Earth still be in his coffin?

Yeah, even if the living Jason Todd is from another earth, it doesn't explain why this earth's dead Jason Todd is no longer in his coffin or why there was never a body in the coffin to begin with. And that's the real mystery, isn't it?

[The Shadow]

Yeah, even if the living Jason Todd is from another earth, it doesn't explain why this earth's dead Jason Todd is no longer in his coffin or why there was never a body in the coffin to begin with. And that's the real mystery, isn't it?
If earth 1 and 2 were never fully merged and Earth 2's Jason never died perhaps Earth 1's Jason was never born despite many people having memories of him. Not all Earth 2 people had earth 1 counterparts.

[jwd]

Personally, I'm still liking Winick's work on Batman. (I don't like all his stuff, but this is pretty good--and by far better than any of the other bat-titles at the moment, IMO.)

I never cared much for the Jason retcon that made him a creep, but at least Judd made that "stealing the wheels off the batmobile" story a bit more credible than it was originally.

I certainly would have voted against bringing Jason back, but so far, I'm liking what they're doing. Sure he was dead, but this *is* comic books. Nobody was ever any deader than Alfred was in 1964, and they brought him back. After that story, anything's possible.

Agreed. Actually the first cover of Batman fighting the new Red Hood was the first Batman monthly I picked up since before HUSH started. I actually have been enjoying this story arc.

I'm like you in that I probably wouldn't of brought him back either. To me though I'm more interested in how this effects Bruce and not on "How could they bring him back? He was dead! Arrrgghhhh!" anger.

As for the other bat-titles. Well 'Tec looked like a big storyline I could just skip. If it turns out to be worthwhile they'll either do a tpb or it won't sell well and I'll look through the cheap bins. Gotham Knights seem to be following up with HUSh but it just doesn't look that interesting to me.

[TJ Shoun]

If earth 1 and 2 were never fully merged and Earth 2's Jason never died perhaps Earth 1's Jason was never born despite many people having memories of him. Not all Earth 2 people had earth 1 counterparts.

Yeah, I'd say it's something like that.

I just hope that after IC, he's back in the ground and doesn't remain a new character in the revampled post-IC DCU.

But for some reason I'm not getting those vibes. :rolleyes:

...which begs the question:

If a character dies in a given reality, but it is reintroduced from another timeline, is that technically retconning the death story?

[The Shadow]

...which begs the question:

If a character dies in a given reality, but it is reintroduced from another timeline, is that technically retconning the death story?
... I HATE time travel and alternate reality stuff... makes my head hurt.

This is (if correct) just another reason why I hate the multiverse concept.

[Exo]

Seeing this Jason beat Joker senseless with a crowbar convinces me he is, in fact, the real deal (and not someone from another dimension). Why would Jason from earth 2 be out for revenge like that?

[The Shadow]

Seeing this Jason beat Joker senseless with a crowbar convinces me he is, in fact, the real deal (and not someone from another dimension). Why would Jason from earth 2 be out for revenge like that?
The earth 2 Jason could have survived the crowbar beating and bomb

[Exo]

The earth 2 Jason could have survived the crowbar beating and bomb

Touché. :)

[PrimalScream]

If this REd Hood was Jason from another Earth, then wouldn't the *dead* Jason Todd from this Earth still be in his coffin?

unless earth2 jason met up with hush and riddler and together they stole earth1 jason's body to fake that earth2 jason was earth1 jason.

[The Shadow]

unless earth2 jason met up with hush and riddler and together they stole earth1 jason's body to fake that earth2 jason was earth1 jason.
... THIS is why I hate the idea of the multi-verse returning

[Brian Cronin]

It is the year 2005.

And Judd Winick is taking the time to explain a story from 1986.

Who does he think he is, Geoff Johns?!?! :)

-Brian

[The Shadow]

It is the year 2005.

And Judd Winick is taking the time to explain a story from 1986.

Who does he think he is, Geoff Johns?!?! :)

-Brian
LMAO

Cronin made a funny! :p :D :D

[mail_order_arab]

I came in cold, not being familiar with anything Winnick has done, and so far, Im enjoying this far more than anything Batman related in a long while. Art was great, and I really loved seeing Jason thru Bruces eyes. "Jason had a mean streak" I loved that entire page, good stuff.

[Mia]

I am not a fan of Winnick. And I really can't wait until he is off the book.

But I liked this issue a lot. Apart from the artwork. I really have to say I liked Jason. Yeah he was a brat. But he was far more realistic than Dick and Tim. I don't know many teenagers who would be able to bounce back and be happy after the death of their parent(s) the way those two did.

There was so much potential with Jason. And I think there's more still. However I don't trust him to capitilize on that potential.

[TJ Shoun]

There's no reason that this Jason - if he indeed is from another earth - didn't learn of what happened to this earth's Jason. Hence, the crowbar beating on the Joker as "revenge".

Or, as was already mentioned, the same thing could have been attempted on him on his earth yet he somehow survived.

[Guts/Batman]

There's no reason that this Jason - if he indeed is from another earth - didn't learn of what happened to this earth's Jason. Hence, the crowbar beating on the Joker as "revenge".

Or, as was already mentioned, the same thing could have been attempted on him on his earth yet he somehow survived.

Yea.

That would explain why "Jason" is older without retconning A Death in the Family.

[Viking Bastard]

Y'know.

Perhaps Evil Jason is from this timeline/universe here:

http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y245/whitmore_sean/jasonalive.jpg

Wouldn't that be kinda kewl?

[CaptMagellan]

Correct me if I'm wrong but I don't think there ever was an Earth-2 Jason. Jason only existed on Earth-1. The CoIE change that happened was that Jason, Post Crisis, had a major personality change.

Earth-2 (the golden age earth) had Batman (dead by the time of Crisis) Huntress (Helena Wayne) and Dick Grayson (adult Robin).

[Karl J. Barnes]

Correct me if I'm wrong but I don't think there ever was an Earth-2 Jason. Jason only existed on Earth-1. The CoIE change that happened was that Jason, Post Crisis, had a major personality change.

Earth-2 (the golden age earth) had Batman (dead by the time of Crisis) Huntress (Helena Wayne) and Dick Grayson (adult Robin).

What about Zero Hour? Could that event have created another version of Jason?

ANyway...I'll just let the story unfold.

[CaptMagellan]

What about Zero Hour? Could that event have created another version of Jason?

ANyway...I'll just let the story unfold.

Probably (Zero Hour gives me a headache) and so could Hypertime.

But there was no Earth-2 Jason as far as I remember.

[mwm1331]

After returning from the midle east with jason's body, didn't batman have to give it to a funeral home or the coroner? And wasn't the funeral closed casket?
Did Batman ever actually (in the original storyline) open the casket after he got it back and ensure that the badly decomposing body of jason was in it?

[mohammedali]

Am I the only one that thinks that Todd being back is a good thing if done well?
I mean, one of the reasons I started buying more Batman was for Red Hood. I think this is one of the coolest things that could possibly happen in all of Batman, though Death in the Family was one of my fav arcs after Year 1.

To me the only way I could accept Todds return was if he was from another Earth. Any other way would seem too stupid IMHO.
I think the idea that he was from an Earth where he just about managed to survive is a very cool idea. It would also explain why he beats Joker to near death but doesn't finish him off - returning the 'favour' so to speak.

Having said all that, it seems possible that DC aren't using the another Earth idea given the end of this ish. Having Todd never being in the casket seems to suggest something very different to what I thought originally happened. I don't understand how else they can explain it. Did they also show Todd in heaven in one of the back issues? If Red Hood isn't from another Earth then I wonder how they'd explain that...

Mohammed Ali

[cmndob]

Yeah I wasn't buying Batman until Red Hood started, so I'm probably second class here. But I do think that going into this hallowed ground isn't a cardinal sin, but rather an intruiging story. I think bringing back dead Robin is a helluva lot more interesting and believable than dead Buckey. ugh :rolleyes:

[Nick Kal]

Great issue of Batman!