Did the jedi go down too easy?

[Doom68]

The jedi's got slaughtered alot in episode 3, but...should ir really have been so easy to kill aaaaaall of them? (save the ones that obviously survived) or was it all pis?

[Ghost_rider_x3]

Id say....nah....get ambushed by your own troops.....it could happen to anybody, it was a slaughter plain and simple.

[Eliseu Gouveia]

That was a very FINE example of the notorious Jedi Precog at work on a massive scale, yes siree. :rolleyes:

[Robin3]

yep, them Jedi Chicks. You tell them they're cute and they're down faster than you can say "Where'd she go?"

[Mike Pothier]

I think so. Only a few deaths look PIS free.

And I don't care what anybody says. Mace went out like a punk.

[Zeta]

And I don't care what anybody says. Mace went out like a punk.

I had been hoping Boba would've come back to tag his ass

[Valmore]

And I don't care what anybody says. Mace went out like a punk.

In the words of Samuel L. Jackson (or should be his words):

This is where the movie goes downhill, damnit. I'm MACE F-IN' WINDU! I shouldn't be losing to some old, ugly fart and a whiney, snot-nosed bitchboy. Damnit, I should have beheaded both of them with my lightsaber, and then taken a sip of MY BEER! I'm SAMUEL L. JACKSON, baby!

[The Mirrorball Man]

That was a very FINE example of the notorious Jedi Precog at work on a massive scale, yes siree. :rolleyes:
"Yoda: The dark side clouds everything. Impossible to see the future is." :)

[Robotech Master]

Novelization also points out that by the time Palpatine sprung his trap, the Jedi were in a state of decay. Their ability to use the force was waning compared to the older ages, and furthermore the novelization points out that the Jedi were weakened from the continuous fighting in the Clone Wars over the past few years.

Add in the fact that it was their own troops turning on you, often from point blank range, and the fact that the Dark Side clouds precog to some level, and also reiterating that Jedi Precog is a bit more of an active ability rather than passive, and there you have your reason why the Jedi were slaughtered.

[Ren]

Novelization also points out that by the time Palpatine sprung his trap, the Jedi were in a state of decay. Their ability to use the force was waning compared to the older ages, and furthermore the novelization points out that the Jedi were weakened from the continuous fighting in the Clone Wars over the past few years.

... Wow. No wonder I don't read novelizations. That's stupid.

[Charagon]

????

It's said a number of times throughout the trilogy that the force has become clouded and the Jedi aren't as strong as they were, ESPECIALLY in the area of precog.

[raoulduke]

The Clone Wars cartoon and the comics showed that the Jedis really befriended some of the Clone Troopers during wartime. I know at least Obi-Wan was friends with Commander Cody and Alpha.

A sudden mental shift is a pretty tough thing to detect especially with a powerful Sith Lord behind it all.

[Charagon]

And really, there wasn't that much of a mental shift at all.

Cody went from Obi-Wan's commrade to assassin without missing a beat. It was just another order.

[Uratoh]

I've got this theory, which I call the Jedi-Ninja theory. the Ninja theory states that there is X ammount of Ninja Power floating around, and when you have a large number of Ninja, the power is divided up amongst them, so one ninja from another clan, who has his whole clan's ninja power reserve, can slaughter them en masse until it's down to just a few, in which case the fighting gets tougher.


Now, let's apply this theory to the Jedi! There were only two dark jedi, therefore they were only dividing their jedi power amongst 2 people. The good jedi had what, hundreds? so their powers were WAY divided ^_^

[Ghost]

Now, let's apply this theory to the Jedi! There were only two dark jedi, therefore they were only dividing their jedi power amongst 2 people. The good jedi had what, hundreds? so their powers were WAY divided ^_^

Actually, there were like, 10.000 of them IIRC.

Which, does imply that at least a handfull would have survived, all things considered. There must have been more Jedi who got lucky like Obi, or were just too badass to die, like Yoda. Plus, there's the warning message the two of them managed to send off in the end. Realistically, there should have been more survivors.

[Gorjirus]

Realistically, both Anakin and Obi Wan should have dies, leaving only Yoda.

[Captain Smith]

Men with guns, men with swords - some mild TK.

Figure it out. Look, I can hop around and pick up a glass of water with my mind.

[Salvester2]

I think it is safe to say that several Jedi survived the purge, other than Yoda and Obi-Won, however they would probably be to disheartened to fight the Empire. Some prolly did fight the Empire though, but didn't last long.

[Doom68]

thing is, during the original trilogy and episode one, i had come to believe that the jedi were awesome super warriors and they had an almost immortal-ness to them. remember anakin saying "No one can kill a Jedi" we dont even get confronted with Jedi mortality till the battle at geonosis. and then its like all of a sudden only a handful as needed by the plot were really all that great. and then episode 3, obi and yoda seemed to be the only ones to survive, and obi got lucky to a foul shot. but no other jedi could possibly get lucky also? or was good enough to survive? i just couldnt see logic in that.

[Ghost]

Men with guns, men with swords - some mild TK.

Figure it out. Look, I can hop around and pick up a glass of water with my mind.

Funny, then, that a teenaged Jedi who wasn't even deemed fit for the battlefield could hack up enough of those well-armed men to make it out of the temple before going down.

The Jedi were backstabbed and outnumbered. That's not the same thing as being overpowered.

[Shellhead]

The Jedi went down faster and easier than a bunch of cheap hookers at a Shriner convention.

[Pariah128]

Now, let's apply this theory to the Jedi! There were only two dark jedi, therefore they were only dividing their jedi power amongst 2 people. The good jedi had what, hundreds? so their powers were WAY divided ^_^


Its the opposite, with less teachings going around theres less jedi, and even less powerful ones

[SuperSaiyaMan12]

One of the main reasons why the Jedi went down so quickly in Episode III was because they were ambushed by their own troops, outnumbered, and out gunned. Hell, even the heavy machinery and warmachines were used against them(recalls one Jedi being blasted by an AT-TE).

[Pariah128]

Plus when yoda himself admits the future is clouded, you cant expect the weaker jedi to know anything

[JerrBear81]

In the words of Samuel L. Jackson (or should be his words):

This is where the movie goes downhill, damnit. I'm MACE F-IN' WINDU! I shouldn't be losing to some old, ugly fart and a whiney, snot-nosed bitchboy. Damnit, I should have beheaded both of them with my lightsaber, and then taken a sip of MY BEER! I'm SAMUEL L. JACKSON, baby!

Jackson should've wrote Ep I-III, not Lucas! He would've had Windu go down in a sacrifice!

[Doom68]

windu proply wouldnt have gone down then. he'd have taken obi's place in the future of starwars

[Captain Smith]

IMHO, given the power levels seen in the movie (don't read the books), the Jedi were militarily ridiculous. Any group with significant distance weapons and competent leadership could wipe them out.

Their only sucessess occur when they get near some folks. In real battles, bayonets and swords are used that much anymore. Guess why?

[SuperSaiyaMan12]

IMHO, given the power levels seen in the movie (don't read the books), the Jedi were militarily ridiculous. Any group with significant distance weapons and competent leadership could wipe them out.

Their only sucessess occur when they get near some folks. In real battles, bayonets and swords are used that much anymore. Guess why?
Well, Swords can't block bullets, can they? Jedi use their Force Abilities, and their blaster bolt blocking sabers to save themselves against range opponents. It is just...the Jedi were ridiculously outnumbered and ambushed by the Clone Troopers.

[Captain Smith]

The blocking of speed of light weapons was ridiculous. It only worked because it was animated at a far slower speed for da movies.

Let's be real here. You are not blocking significant gun fire with DA FORCE! Or at least as I saw it presented in the films.

[VCreed32]

What light speed weapons?

[Gorjirus]

Technically, a blaster's fire, since it is light, travels at "light speed". However... they don't. They should, but they don't.

[lushe]

The jedi's got slaughtered alot in episode 3, but...should ir really have been so easy to kill aaaaaall of them? (save the ones that obviously survived) or was it all pis?

I mean I always thought the jedi were sorry anyway I would rather be a sith they had more freedom and were vastly more powerful I mean come on NO GIRLS NO SEX come on I would really rather be a sith get jedi training and get marrierd and live my life

[VCreed32]

I don't think blaster bolts are really light though?
Please correct me if I'm wrong.

[Gorjirus]

Do you know why they did that? They didn't want the Jedi race running around. The Force is one really big STD. You have kids, they have the Force. All the Jedi's have kids, you double the number of Jedi's.

Think about. They want to wage war, they all produce kids about once a year. That would be quite a force, since I think there can be (or only are) about two true Sith at once.





But, they don't get married. They don't have sex.

Which begs the question, how the CRAP do the Jedi get the mito-whatever in the first place? Pure genetics? (In which case, why didn't the make *gasp* clones of Jedi/Sith/other (as I would thinking it possible to be neither, as they only found Anakin by freak chance), or genetically engineer someone who has that mito-whatever to already be there).









Now, as to blaster's being light, it is some weird "Lucas" science. Should they be light/lasers? Yes. (Or at least plasma). But, they do not perform or behave like any of them. Thus, we don't really know what they are.

[Len Ikari145]

He obviously cut all his science classes :rolleyes:

Seriously, if becoming a Jedi means abstaining from natural procreation.. I say Anakin truly was one of the SMART Jedi :D

[SuperSaiyaMan12]

The blocking of speed of light weapons was ridiculous. It only worked because it was animated at a far slower speed for da movies.

Let's be real here. You are not blocking significant gun fire with DA FORCE! Or at least as I saw it presented in the films.
Blaster bolts aren't lightspeed.

[Brian888]

Blaster bolts aren't lightspeed.


Yeah. After all, Han can dodge them at point-blank range while sitting down. :D

[Erebus]

Jackson should've wrote Ep I-III, not Lucas! He would've had Windu go down in a sacrifice!

I was just wondering, were there any black people in the original Star Wars? or was it kind of like sci-fi lord of the bling?

[Hiromi]

Lando fer crying out loud.

[Erebus]

Oh yeah, I forgot about him.

[Hiromi]

Everyone always forgets about poor Lando.

[Ghost]

But, they don't get married. They don't have sex.

Which begs the question, how the CRAP do the Jedi get the mito-whatever in the first place? Pure genetics? (In which case, why didn't the make *gasp* clones of Jedi/Sith/other (as I would thinking it possible to be neither, as they only found Anakin by freak chance), or genetically engineer someone who has that mito-whatever to already be there).

Well, we don't know for sure they're not allowed to have sex, just that they're not allowed to marry. I wouldn't be surprised if there are Jedi with their own ideas on what "no attachments" actually means.

As for creating a Jedi Clone Army, that sounds like a good way to get a couple of million Dark Jedi with military training running around. Bad situation for just about everyone. Clones were mass-produced to be cannon fodder, not super-soldiers. They didn't have a lifetime of Jedi training to fall back on and if regular Jedi like Dooku and Anakin could fall, clones most definitely could.


Now, as to blaster's being light, it is some weird "Lucas" science. Should they be light/lasers? Yes. (Or at least plasma). But, they do not perform or behave like any of them. Thus, we don't really know what they are.

IIRC, the official explenation is that blasters fire a sort of gas that has been superenergised into plasma and contained within a bolt-shaped magnetic field of some kind. So yeah, they're supposed to be plasmoid, and not light-based at all.

[Donald Stone]

Holden: Ah, come on, that's a bunch of horse shit! Lando Calrissian was a black guy. You know, and he got to fly the Millennium Falcon, what's the matter with you?
Hooper: Who said that?
Holden: I did! Lando Calrissian is a strong role-model in the realm of science fiction/fantasy.
Hooper: Fuck Lando Calrissian! Uncle-Tom nigger!

[YoungG03]

"Yoda: The dark side clouds everything. Impossible to see the future is." :)


Haha; crazy

[VCreed32]

Thanks Ghost, I knew they weren't light based.

[Jagatai_Khan]

I mean I always thought the jedi were sorry anyway I would rather be a sith they had more freedom and were vastly more powerful I mean come on NO GIRLS NO SEX come on I would really rather be a sith get jedi training and get marrierd and live my life


Sith were discouraged from having any romantic relationships too, though. For different reasons: If you love someone, that's a weakness. You either depend on them or on how they make you feel. They could be exploited against you.

The Sith philosophy is all about being self-sufficient and standing alone with no attachments that can hinder you. So, other than casual sex (or rape), no sex for the Sith either. *Definitely* no love.

[Jagatai_Khan]

Well, we don't know for sure they're not allowed to have sex, just that they're not allowed to marry. I wouldn't be surprised if there are Jedi with their own ideas on what "no attachments" actually means.

And now we hit on the extremely high turnover rate for Jedi, and the reason that so many potentials and trainees walk away from the Order before they finish thier training.

I mean, if the EU is accurate, the galaxy is practically flooded with Ex-Jedi who turned away from the Order, and the Force. Probably for this very reason.

[Guts/Batman]

Sith were discouraged from having any romantic relationships too, though. For different reasons: If you love someone, that's a weakness. You either depend on them or on how they make you feel. They could be exploited against you.

The Sith philosophy is all about being self-sufficient and standing alone with no attachments that can hinder you. So, other than casual sex (or rape), no sex for the Sith either. *Definitely* no love.

Exactly why Palptine was able to do to Anakin what he did to him...

[Lord Foul]

Actaully I don't think the jedi were weakned that much, only Mace and Yoda seemed to notice it and none of the others seemed even worried about it. I think for the most part the shroud only effected "long-distance" precog. Like when Mace only sensed the plot near the very last second and even then only guessed Paplitine was a dark sider, not a sith lord.

[Charagon]

The Jedi weren't wiped out by Order 32 (I think that's what it was). Obi-Wan and Yoda sent the message to all the surviving Jedi to stay away from HQ.


According to the pannel at Comic-Con, the stories of surviving Jedi is planned on being explored in an upcoming animated TV show.

[colossus34]

The Jedi weren't wiped out by Order 32 (I think that's what it was). Obi-Wan and Yoda sent the message to all the surviving Jedi to stay away from HQ.


According to the pannel at Comic-Con, the stories of surviving Jedi is planned on being explored in an upcoming animated TV show.


Exactly, I know all Jedi Masters are dead, (save Obi and Yoda) but doesn't Vader spend the next 20 years hunting down and killing the remaining remnants of Jedi Knights???

[The MunchKING]

As for creating a Jedi Clone Army, that sounds like a good way to get a couple of million Dark Jedi with military training running around. Bad situation for just about everyone. Clones were mass-produced to be cannon fodder, not super-soldiers. They didn't have a lifetime of Jedi training to fall back on and if regular Jedi like Dooku and Anakin could fall, clones most definitely could..

Plus according to the Zahn Trilogy, That causes Severe screwups in the clone's mental stability.

and since all the clones had the same brain pattern. They would be more vulnerable to mental Games.

[SuperSaiyaMan12]

The Jedi weren't wiped out by Order 32 (I think that's what it was). Obi-Wan and Yoda sent the message to all the surviving Jedi to stay away from HQ.


According to the pannel at Comic-Con, the stories of surviving Jedi is planned on being explored in an upcoming animated TV show.
It is Order 66, and most of the Jedi were wiped out. Those who survived still haven't surfaced yet.

[Yogi]

The Jedi weren't wiped out by Order 32 (I think that's what it was). Obi-Wan and Yoda sent the message to all the surviving Jedi to stay away from HQ.


According to the pannel at Comic-Con, the stories of surviving Jedi is planned on being explored in an upcoming animated TV show.So how is this supposed to fir in the EU now? Did they all die by the time of the OT, or is this another plothole?

[Gorjirus]

Vader hunts down and kills the remaining Jedi (or somesuch thing) as mentioned by Obi Wan in New Hope.

[Gamma Warrior]

20 survived Ep.3. 3 make it to a new hope.

[Ghost]

Funny thought: in the months following ROTJ, fifty or so ex-Jedi come out of hiding once they learn that the Empire has fallen. As it turns out, most of them are married and have grandchildren. :D ;)

[lushe]

well I still feel as if sith are better than jedi

[Ghost]

well I still feel as if sith are better than jedi

You mean in terms of job-description? I dunno, they have a tendency to backstab each other to a much higher degree then the Jedi. Plus, they don't seem to care much for the ladies either.

In my opinion, the Jedi of Luke's new order had a pretty sweet deal. All of the awesomeness of the old order but non of the drawbacks.
Or you can simply go by Kyle Katarn's philosopy of "Light Side, Dark Side, I'm the guy with the Concussion Rifle!" and do whatever the hell you want. :cool:

[Yogi]

20 survived Ep.3. 3 make it to a new hope.Three? Obi-wan, Yoda, and ???

[RK_Striker_JK_5]

You mean in terms of job-description? I dunno, they have a tendency to backstab each other to a much higher degree then the Jedi. Plus, they don't seem to care much for the ladies either.

In my opinion, the Jedi of Luke's new order had a pretty sweet deal. All of the awesomeness of the old order but non of the drawbacks.
Or you can simply go by Kyle Katarn's philosopy of "Light Side, Dark Side, I'm the guy with the Concussion Rifle!" and do whatever the hell you want. :cool:


Luke's Order pre-NJO was almost the ideal Jedi Order. They realized that you couldn't simply divorce yourself from the rest of the galaxy. They also knew that there was a Dark Side and that there were consequences to falling.

During the NJO and beyond? They're friggin' Neo-Sith Lords. Oh, how the mighty have fallen...

[Ghost]

Three? Obi-wan, Yoda, and ???

Yeah, I'm sort of wondering that too. First I thought he meant one of the EU survivors, but that would chalk them up to at least six or seven all in all.

Luke's Order pre-NJO was almost the ideal Jedi Order. They realized that you couldn't simply divorce yourself from the rest of the galaxy. They also knew that there was a Dark Side and that there were consequences to falling.

During the NJO and beyond? They're friggin' Neo-Sith Lords. Oh, how the mighty have fallen...

Yeah, I haven't read any of the NJO stuff, so I didn't comment. I've heard allot of bad stuff happens, though.

Young Jedi Knights, now there's a downright idyllic Jedi Order.

[RK_Striker_JK_5]

Yeah, I'm sort of wondering that too. First I thought he meant one of the EU survivors, but that would chalk them up to at least six or seven all in all.



Yeah, I haven't read any of the NJO stuff, so I didn't comment. I've heard allot of bad stuff happens, though.

Young Jedi Knights, now there's a downright idyllic Jedi Order.

Maybe he meant Luke? But he wasn't really a Jedi for the first 18 years or so...

'A lot of bad stuff happens' is sorta an understatement, Ghost. By the end, Luke's using a form of Sith Lightning. Note: Luke friggin' Skywalker is using Sith Lightning.

Young Jedi Knights? Heh. I love that series. First SW books I ever read. Heck, I read them before finishing the OT. Anyway... It was still better than the NJO. When Zekk fell to the Dark Side, it did haunt him and it took him alomst until the end to come to some terms with it. He was also almost killed in 'Jedi Under Siege'.

[The Mirrorball Man]

Three? Obi-wan, Yoda, and ???
Ben, Yoda and Luke maybe?

[G. Wayne]

The Jedi weren't wiped out by Order 32 (I think that's what it was). Obi-Wan and Yoda sent the message to all the surviving Jedi to stay away from HQ.


According to the pannel at Comic-Con, the stories of surviving Jedi is planned on being explored in an upcoming animated TV show.

according to the comics at least quinlan vos survives the ep 3 order 66 wave. and it's heavily implied that asajj ventress lives too.

[Genma:TheDestroyer]

'A lot of bad stuff happens' is sorta an understatement, Ghost. By the end, Luke's using a form of Sith Lightning. Note: Luke friggin' Skywalker is using Sith Lightning.


So? Mace Windu used a form of lightsaber fighting that was supposed to be toeing the line of the Dark Side.

Master Vrook, a Jedi Master in Revan's time, channeled the Force in a way that was used almost exclusively by the Sith. But he was about as hardcore 'light' as they come. When asked about it, he noted that Jedi and Sith are capable of accessing both sides of the Force. The challenge is keeping yourself grounded. Which he did quite nicely.



Heck, forget Kyle Katarn. Grey Jedi (those who don't follow the rigid Light/Dark guidelines that regular Jedi and Sith do) have existed for millenia. Jolee Bindo, for instance. And the history of the SWU notes there have been plenty of them. Neither the Sith or the Jedi are fond of the idea, but there's not really much they could do about it.

[T-1000]

I had been hoping Boba would've come back to tag his ass

You are talking about the same Bobba Fett that got killed by a blind Han Solo who didn't know what he was doing at the time, that Bobba Fett? Yeah, he always struck me as a threat. :rolleyes:

For the life of me, I'll never understand which drunken, lonely Star Wars fans ever thought to themselves "hey, you know what, I bet Bobba Fett is actually dangerous!"

[Ren]

You are talking about the same Bobba Fett that got killed by a blind Han Solo who didn't know what he was doing at the time, that Bobba Fett? Yeah, he always struck me as a threat. :rolleyes:

For the life of me, I'll never understand which drunken, lonely Star Wars fans ever thought to themselves "hey, you know what, I bet Bobba Fett is actually dangerous!"

Agreed. The difference between Boba Fett and any other mook is that Fett has a name. Period.

[JerrBear81]

In my opinion, the Jedi of Luke's new order had a pretty sweet deal. All of the awesomeness of the old order but non of the drawbacks.

That reminds me of the show "Drawn Together":

"Well, the considerate alternative is anorexia. All of the benefits of bulimia but none of the mess."

[Grazzt]

That reminds me of the show "Drawn Together":

"Well, the considerate alternative is anorexia. All of the benefits of bulimia but none of the mess."

You should put that in the "Quotes that define that ain't right thread.", JerrBear.

[jadehorde]

IMHO, given the power levels seen in the movie (don't read the books), the Jedi were militarily ridiculous. Any group with significant distance weapons and competent leadership could wipe them out.

Their only sucessess occur when they get near some folks. In real battles, bayonets and swords are used that much anymore. Guess why?


They WEREN'T soldiers. That was a basic point from the beginning. Badass in battle but not to be built up into armies. They are officers of the peace.

Though as pilots, they certainly would rock as an elite force...

But most phycial combat in the Old Republic would be small fringe affairs fought in corridors and boardrooms...ie close quarters stuff.

[jadehorde]

I mean I always thought the jedi were sorry anyway I would rather be a sith they had more freedom and were vastly more powerful I mean come on NO GIRLS NO SEX come on I would really rather be a sith get jedi training and get marrierd and live my life


Actually...did they ever state you needed to be chaste? Just celibate right?

You couldn't marry...I don't think they said you couldn't get with a girl in a less formal way.

[Len Ikari145]

Did Luke ever get married in EU books?

[Ren]

Did Luke ever get married in EU books?

Yes. To Mara Jade.

[Guts/Batman]

Yes. To Mara Jade.

He definitely could have chosen worse... ;)

[RK_Striker_JK_5]

So? Mace Windu used a form of lightsaber fighting that was supposed to be toeing the line of the Dark Side.

Master Vrook, a Jedi Master in Revan's time, channeled the Force in a way that was used almost exclusively by the Sith. But he was about as hardcore 'light' as they come. When asked about it, he noted that Jedi and Sith are capable of accessing both sides of the Force. The challenge is keeping yourself grounded. Which he did quite nicely.



Heck, forget Kyle Katarn. Grey Jedi (those who don't follow the rigid Light/Dark guidelines that regular Jedi and Sith do) have existed for millenia. Jolee Bindo, for instance. And the history of the SWU notes there have been plenty of them. Neither the Sith or the Jedi are fond of the idea, but there's not really much they could do about it.


I don't mind them going 'Gray'. I have problems with Luke Skywalker using Force Lightning. After all he's been through, I believe he'd be the least likely of the new Jedi to use that.

[Ren]

I have serious issues with the Light/Dark division anyway. Aside from a plot device in a barely-thought-out space opera setting, it really makes no sense. I see it as crippling the Jedi and the Sith alike who cling to Light/Dark ideology, when they could be listening to and worthing with the Force as a whole.

[RK_Striker_JK_5]

I have serious issues with the Light/Dark division anyway. Aside from a plot device in a barely-thought-out space opera setting, it really makes no sense. I see it as crippling the Jedi and the Sith alike who cling to Light/Dark ideology, when they could be listening to and worthing with the Force as a whole.


Then we must simply agree to disagree, Ren. The Light/Dark division is a key part of SW to me.

[Ren]

Then we must simply agree to disagree, Ren. The Light/Dark division is a key part of SW to me.

Well, yeah, it's a key part of Star Wars. Star Wars was only intended to be a movie trilogy, and movies like Westerns, but in space. Little thought - straight to the fighting. And for that, the Force is fine as-is. However, when you begin seriously developing the setting, it's really, really weak.

[Genma:TheDestroyer]

I don't mind them going 'Gray'. I have problems with Luke Skywalker using Force Lightning. After all he's been through, I believe he'd be the least likely of the new Jedi to use that.

Jedi throughout the history of the SWU have lost friends, family, and more because of the Sith. While the events in Luke's life were more important to the rest of the galaxy, they're hardly unique. Especially in times when there were thousands of followers of both sides. Jolee's wife fell to the Dark Side, and he had to put her down during the war.


But that didn't stop him from realizing that Dark Side techniques are simply tools. Tools that *can* be used for good. All it takes is discipline in using them.


Aside from that, Luke's whole viewpoint nowadays is that that Light/Dark divide is flawed is flawed.

[Charagon]

The mindset isn't that hard to comprehend.

Sith abilities rely on a dark power. That power by its very nature is a corrupting influence. It's not hard to realize that it's just a better idea to keep Jedi away from corrupting influences.

[Ren]

The mindset isn't that hard to comprehend.

Sith abilities rely on a dark power. That power by its very nature is a corrupting influence. It's not hard to realize that it's just a better idea to keep Jedi away from corrupting influences.

Thankfully, that traditional mindset is being replaced in Luke. Maybe the metaphysics in Star Wars will eventually start to make sense.

[Doom68]

didnt vimma da boda survive? eu wise...

[ChrisII]

Some of the upcoming Dark Horse comics will deal with the continuing purge.

Here's the cover of one called "Purge":

http://images.darkhorse.com/covers/13/13404.jpg




The video games also have some Jedi survive, such as Echuu Shen-Jonn (Galactic Battlegrounds) and Qu Rahn and Jerec, the latter of whom goes to the dark side and becomes one of the Emperor and Vader's dark-side (but not sith) minions (Dark Forces II:Jedi Knight).

[Gamma Warrior]

Three? Obi-wan, Yoda, and ???Ranake Solouser.

Jerec had gone to the darkside by that time.

[ChrisII]

BTW it's possible the new TV series will deal with Jedi that have survived the initial purge.

BTW here's some stuff from upcoming post-ROTS comics (This is after all a comic forum :) )



http://www.rebelscum.com/wheatley/wheatleyrep78-1.jpg
Imperial marines search for Jedi


http://www.rebelscum.com/wheatley/wheatleyrep78-2.jpg

Verpine Jedi over Stormtrooper bodies


http://images.darkhorse.com/covers/10/10455.jpg

Quinlan Vos runs from the Imperial army on Kashyyk

[cactusmaac]

IMHO, given the power levels seen in the movie (don't read the books), the Jedi were militarily ridiculous. Any group with significant distance weapons and competent leadership could wipe them out.

Their only sucessess occur when they get near some folks. In real battles, bayonets and swords are used that much anymore. Guess why?

They weren't meant to be soldiers. In the pre-war days, they were analagous to sherrifs and diplomats.

Once the war started, they were the natural choice to be the officers and generals as they had peace-keeping and diplomatic experience, plus they could form very effective Special Forces units if required.

They wouldn't stand up very well to concentrated fire from soldiers but then neither would FBI agents.

[Jared]

I think the idea of a Grey Jedi has kinda been retconnted, into just referring to a Jedi that's sort of maverick, like Qui Gonn. It could still fit Kyle though.

In the books,the Dark Nest trilogy and the Legacy of the Force series that will come after are suppossed to deal with the Light/Dark problem of Luke's order. Personally, I don't mind if Luke still uses Force Lightning on occassion, as he's essential the greatest Jedi ever, and has already bested the Dark Side.

the "Last of the Jedi" young readers' books deal star at least one other surviving Jedi soon after ROTS. I know Obi Wan only appears in the first couple books, before getting really settled in on Tattooine. From descriptions I read over at theforce.net forums, it seems quite possible that it ties into the novel 'Children of the Jedi'. But I haven't ready any of those books myself.

The Jedi called Dark Woman survived until sometime before ANH, when Mara Jade located her and Vader finished her off.

Jorus C'Baoth probably survived the Purge, and wentdark at some point, but it's not exactly clear, since we only see his crazy dark clone in the Thrawn trilogy.

The Star Wars Wiki has page has a list of known survivors, here. (http://starwars.wikicities.com/wiki/Great_Jedi_Purge)

Of course, nobody will be surprised if the TV show has another Jedi show up at some point. Maybe he, she, or they will end up sabotaging the Death Star, putting it years behind schedule.

[Halcyon]

IIRC C'boath was killed several years before the Clone Wars erupted. If we believe the story 'Ghost' is canon Quinlan Vos also survived long enough to meet Han during his Smuggler days. Of the top of my head I can name a handful of potential Jedi Survivors including Ferus Olin (Last Of the Jedi) & Qu Rahn and that's not even counting the ones that betrayed the Jedi and became Imperial Darksiders like Jerec or cracked under torture and revealed the locations of some of their fellow Jedi Survivors such as Haalgad Ventor.

The final fate of Ventress is as of now unknown besides her deciding she now longer wanted to be Dooku's pawn and fleeing to a system far removed from the Clone Wars.

I have serious doubts that anyone should be able to use the Dark Side without falling not even Luke should be immune to that. It's akin to it being all right for Gandalf to use Sauron's Ring to overthrow him. Not a good idea when Luke's Force potential is greater than any other Jedi except Leia and she's nowhere as skilled as him or learned in her knowledge of the Force. It would make Palpatine seem a walk in the park by comparison.

[Ghost]

I personally don't really hold with the idea of the Light and Dark sides being absolute forces within the Force. I rather tend to think of the Dark Side as an analogy to how power may corrupt an indevidual, and the Light Side as an analogy to using power with responcibility.

However, one must remember that both the Jedi Order and the Sith are religious groups, so it makes sense that they would have strong idiological opinions about it.

[Halcyon]

Then how you do explain the cave on Dagobah? Or for that matter exclusively Dark Side Abilities such as Force Lightning or Vader's ability to choke someone to death with the Force? Not to mention the abilities that the Emperor uncovered during his years of study of the Dark Side from cultures across the Galaxy particularly after the Empire was formed.

[ChrisII]

What exactly the cave is hasn't quite been fully explored. The prequels didn't cover it at all, and apart from a small reference in HEIR TO THE EMPIRE there hasn't been much of an explanation. Although there was a STAR WARS tales story dealing a bit with it, TALES's canon is kind of undefined..Perhaps a future CLONE WARS story will deal with the "Dark Jedi" insurrection mentioned in HEIR.

[Jared]

There was a handful of Jedi that went dark during the Clone Wars. Yoda could have killed one them. The references in Heir to the Empire are iffy because the timelines and some of the details were written long before the prequels, so they don't match.



I think the Light and Dark sides have to be kept clear, but I don't think that neccessarily means that certain powers have to specifically be Dark Side only. If using you're Force-assisted fighting prowess to chop up a bad guy with a lightsaber is ok, why not using the Force to shoot energy at them? Or maybe it'd be something that sorta skirts the dark side, like Mace's fighting style. You could still be a good Jedi and use it.
To my mind, the Dark Side *has* to be more than just a person's own interal corruption, otherwise the fall of Anakin Skywalker, and for that matter, alot of the EU characters, doesn't make any sense as shown.

[SAMAS]

And really, there wasn't that much of a mental shift at all.

Cody went from Obi-Wan's commrade to assassin without missing a beat. It was just another order.

That's another reason why so many Jedi's precog failed to go off. Usually, an attacker will feel some sort of malice towards his target. Furthermore, the Jedi had come to trust and depend on their Clonetrooper subordinates. By the time they would've felt something wrong, it was already too late. It was like being stabbed in the dark by your brother.

[spideyguy0]

I think the Light and Dark sides have to be kept clear, but I don't think that neccessarily means that certain powers have to specifically be Dark Side only. If using you're Force-assisted fighting prowess to chop up a bad guy with a lightsaber is ok, why not using the Force to shoot energy at them? Or maybe it'd be something that sorta skirts the dark side, like Mace's fighting style. You could still be a good Jedi and use it.
To my mind, the Dark Side *has* to be more than just a person's own interal corruption, otherwise the fall of Anakin Skywalker, and for that matter, alot of the EU characters, doesn't make any sense as shown.

It was established in the EU that the Unifying Force itself has no light or dark sides, and what matters more is the intention of the Force user. In the new DarK Nest novel, Jedi, including Luke, are seen using what had previously been thought of as Dark Side Force powers. Mace Windu's vapaad is an early idea of what Luke came to realize 50 years later. Anakin's problem was that the more hate he had, the less he cared about where he directed it. Also, if Anakin believed in a Dark Side of the Force, then he beleived also, that in order to tap into the Dark Side, he needed to become its servant. Anakin's fall to the Dark Side was completely his internal coruption. The Dark Side of the Force wasnt telling him what to do. Palpatine was telling Anakin what Anakin wanted to hear, and Anakin justified his actions by saying that it was the will of the Dark Side, which he had to serve in order to have the power that he wanted.

[Ghost]

Then how you do explain the cave on Dagobah? Or for that matter exclusively Dark Side Abilities such as Force Lightning or Vader's ability to choke someone to death with the Force? Not to mention the abilities that the Emperor uncovered during his years of study of the Dark Side from cultures across the Galaxy particularly after the Empire was formed.

Dagobah Cave - This only means that a person with very strong negative emotions used the Force within the cave. It proves that it can be effected by a person's mindset or feelings, but it doesn't have to indicate that there is an actual Dark Side other then as a subjective idea.

Dark Side Abilitites - These are only "exclusive" to the Dark Side in the sense that they are drawn from feelings that ordinary Jedi tend to avoid, such as anger and malice. Choking someone with the Force is not technically different from cheating at dice or levitating starships, and there's nothing to suggest that Yoda couldn't throw Force Lighting, just that he didn't want to.

[Jared]

It was established in the EU that the Unifying Force itself has no light or dark sides, and what matters more is the intention of the Force user. In the new DarK Nest novel, Jedi, including Luke, are seen using what had previously been thought of as Dark Side Force powers.

>I know, but it's possible that the very intention of these scenes it to lead towards something down the line in the story, with the Jedi having to deal with whether they're falling towards the dark side and not realizing it. We just don't know how this is going to play out, but given officicial statements from LFL about the new storylines finally coming full circle with the prequels, I think it is going to be addressed again in some way.

Mace Windu's vapaad is an early idea of what Luke came to realize 50 years later.

>And it's worth noting that Vaapad was a very dangerous thing for Jedi to use, with it possibly have contributed to Sula Bulq going dark, and Depa Bilaba going dark/crazy. Mace himself made the un-Jedi choice that lead to his death.

Anakin's problem was that the more hate he had, the less he cared about where he directed it. Also, if Anakin believed in a Dark Side of the Force, then he beleived also, that in order to tap into the Dark Side, he needed to become its servant. Anakin's fall to the Dark Side was completely his internal coruption. The Dark Side of the Force wasnt telling him what to do. Palpatine was telling Anakin what Anakin wanted to hear, and Anakin justified his actions by saying that it was the will of the Dark Side, which he had to serve in order to have the power that he wanted.

I can't imagine what part of Anakin *wanted* to hear that he must slaughter everybody in the Jedi Temple. Then you have Yoda and Obi Wan talking of Darth Vader as if he were essentially a different person, and the apperance of the redeemed Anakin ghost in ROTJ seeming to confirm their beliefs, IMO. Anakin Skywalker opened himself to corruption *by* the Dark Side, to become Darth Vader. When he cast the dark side out to save Luke and kill the Emperor, Darth Vader was no more and Anakin Skywalker's spirit was cleansed. At least that's my take on it.

There's also the case of Ulic Quel Droma, who stopped being evil after his connection to the Force was severed. And of course, there's statements form Lucas saying there is a Light Side and Dark Side.

[Ghost]

I can't imagine what part of Anakin *wanted* to hear that he must slaughter everybody in the Jedi Temple.

Well, he had already proven that he was prepared to slaughter defensless women and children for purely selfish reasons. I have no problem imagining him telling himself that the temple blitz was "neccecary" for setting everything straight.

To me, Anakin in ROTS came across as harboring something of a grudge against the Order for screwing him over on the Master title, using him as a spy, and refusing to help him save his wife and their unborn child. I'm sure there was a little voice inside his head saying: "It will all be better once all the Jedi are gone."

Then you have Yoda and Obi Wan talking of Darth Vader as if he were essentially a different person, and the apperance of the redeemed Anakin ghost in ROTJ seeming to confirm their beliefs, IMO.

Essentially, he was a different person. Sacrificing everything you've ever known only to loose everything you've ever cared for (plus 80% of your body) is bound to change a man pretty dramatically.

Anakin Skywalker opened himself to corruption *by* the Dark Side, to become Darth Vader. When he cast the dark side out to save Luke and kill the Emperor, Darth Vader was no more and Anakin Skywalker's spirit was cleansed. At least that's my take on it.

Actually, to me, Vader's redemption serves as a good example of the Dark Side as a subjective concept. In ROTJ, Vader gave the distinct impression that he thought he was "stuck" in the Dark Side, and that he couldn't turn back even if he wanted to so why bother? Only Luke was going on and on about him still beeing good deep down inside and that he could make his own decitions on wether or not he wanted to be good or evil. And in the end, Vader seems to realise just this.

[Ontir]

Did the jedi go down too easy?

No, but the Sith chaser helped!

[Jared]

Well, he had already proven that he was prepared to slaughter defensless women and children for purely selfish reasons. I have no problem imagining him telling himself that the temple blitz was "neccecary" for setting everything straight.

>Wiping out the people who just killed (and possibly raped?) one's own mother in a vengeful rage is a bit different from coldly marching over to the temple on a mission to kill everyone inside.

To me, Anakin in ROTS came across as harboring something of a grudge against the Order for screwing him over on the Master title,

>That's something I wish the movie had better explained: What's the big deal that he's not a Master yet? Does that mean he doesn't get a vote or something?


Essentially, he was a different person. Sacrificing everything you've ever known only to loose everything you've ever cared for (plus 80% of your body) is bound to change a man pretty dramatically.





>Yoda was saying it before he got injured though. Something like "Gone, your friend is. Consumed by Darth Vader." I'm not suggesting it's something as simple as if the Dark Side possesses a person outright and takes over their mind, but there's got to be more to it than just what's already in the person. After all, we know there are places like the cave on Dagobah where the Dark Side can even be felt like it's a tangible thing. The way you describe it, a Jedi's temptation is essentially no differnt from anyone elses, except that they have some powers to use at their disposal when they go bad. But that doesn't seem right to me, considerin just how incredibly far the Jedi seem to fall whenever it happens. There's got to be something going on their that's spiritually deeper going on there.

[spideyguy0]

That's something I wish the movie had better explained: What's the big deal that he's not a Master yet? Does that mean he doesn't get a vote or something?

According to the ROTS novel, Anakin needed the rank of Master to access info in the Jedi library about Force visions in order to help him save Padme.

[Night]

Actually, to me, Vader's redemption serves as a good example of the Dark Side as a subjective concept. In ROTJ, Vader gave the distinct impression that he thought he was "stuck" in the Dark Side, and that he couldn't turn back even if he wanted to so why bother? Only Luke was going on and on about him still beeing good deep down inside and that he could make his own decitions on wether or not he wanted to be good or evil. And in the end, Vader seems to realise just this. Thing is not only did Vader believe it, Obi and Yoda did too... they all believed there was no redemtion from the Dark Side. The only one who belived there was good in Vader other than Luke was Amadala.... (and this is what I don't understand at all) and she died from the feeling of hoplessness over the situation? I also think that if this was the way it happend in ep3 that Obi should have given Luke what turned Vader in the first place.

As far as the Jedi dieing too easy... yeah. I think ep3 should have hada Vader leading the clones to defeat the jedi... Have Palpatine give Vader full control of the orders of the clones so that their minds could not be sensed. that would have made more sence. Not only having the surprise of the clones turing but also one of their own. You see, it's one thing to not be able to detect far away things or the plans of the sith... it's quite another to not be able to detect premeditated hostile intentions of multiple clones right next to you.

Oh and Vader's hand stoped blaster fire on cloud city during ep5 (you could say that's mech not flesh tough)

[Jared]

The only one who belived there was good in Vader other than Luke was Amadala.... (and this is what I don't understand at all) and she died from the feeling of hoplessness over the situation?

>In my own mind, the Force choke must have done something to her soul/life essence/whatever. Because people don't die from broken hearts.

You see, it's one thing to not be able to detect far away things or the plans of the sith... it's quite another to not be able to detect premeditated hostile intentions of multiple clones right next to you.

>Bear in mind that we're only talking about a few seconds, or minutes of premeditation at most, and this is coming from clones who just moments before had been unwaveringly loyal comrades-in-arms to the Jedi. And the Dark Side was still involved, as the novelization says.

With the Jedi Order overextended, spread thin across the galaxy, each Jedi is alone, surrounded only by whatever clone troops he, she, or it commands. War itself pours darkness into the Force, deepening the cloud that limits Jedi perception. And the clones have no malice, no hatred, not the slightest ill intent that might give warning. They are only following orders.
In this case, Order Sixty-Six.
Hold-out blasters appear in clone hands. ARC-170s drop back onto the tails of Jedi star fighters. AT-STs swivel their guns. Turrets on hovertanks swung silently.
Clones open fire, and Jedi die.
All across the galaxy. All at once.
Jedi die."


Oh and Vader's hand stoped blaster fire on cloud city during ep5 (you could say that's mech not flesh tough)[/QUOTE]

>I've never been clear on whether that was because of Vader's Force power or if his bionic hands are just that strong.

[Inkthinker]

I've never been clear on whether that was because of Vader's Force power or if his bionic hands are just that strong.

I never noticed until you mentioned it, but I think Vader does block Han's blaster bolts with his right (bionic) hand.

I always just assumed that Vader was just that pimp. Blasters? Please...

[Jared]

Both hands are bionic. Dooku chopped off one, later Obi Wan took care of the other, along with his legs.

[Quint]

Both hands are bionic. Dooku chopped off one, later Obi Wan took care of the other, along with his legs.



Can the force move through bionic limbs? I was never quite sure about that

[Darth Vader147]

Can the force move through bionic limbs? I was never quite sure about that

yes, thats how vader chokes people.

[ChrisII]

According to some of the Sith reference stuff, Vader can't do force lightning because he basically has no real hands.

Luke can do it in the EU (Where he starts to adopt a new attitude towards the force) , but only through his real hand.