Scotland: The most violent country in the world!

[BlairH]

Just found out that a recent UN survey named Scotland as "the most violent" country in the world! Ouch...Now there's a big hit to national pride.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,2-1786945,00.html


A UNITED Nations report has labelled Scotland the most violent country in the developed world, with people three times more likely to be assaulted than in America.

This doesn't surprise me (looks at abdominal scar tissue)


England and Wales recorded the second highest number of violent assaults while Northern Ireland recorded the fewest.

And Ireland get's the bad rep...for shame!


Violent crime has doubled in Scotland over the past 20 years and levels, per head of population, are now comparable with cities such as Rio de Janeiro, Johannesburg and Tbilisi.

This is absolutely true. Although it varies from place to place. In the costal town of Ayr/Alloway, I can walk the streets at night safely without fear of being stabbed. In places like New Cumnock the CHAVs appear at night and raise some hell!


The attacks have been fuelled by a “booze and blades” culture in the west of Scotland which has claimed more than 160 lives over the past five years. Since January there have been 13 murders, 145 attempted murders and 1,100 serious assaults involving knives in the west of Scotland. The problem is made worse by sectarian violence, with hospitals reporting higher admissions following Old Firm matches.


Booze and blades? Sounds like a Frank Miller Sin City short story! I like that!

Yes, football holliaganism is indeed a very real problem in Scotland. It's particularly worsened by the divide between Rangers and Celtic. The people involved in these riots claim to be "Protestant" or "Catholic", but they're not. One of my friends (a devout rangers supporter) claims to "not believe in God" but still be a "Protestant" (in other words, he worships Rangers' football club)

David Ritchie, an accident and emergency consultant at Glasgow’s Victoria Infirmary, said that the figures were a national disgrace. “I am embarrassed as a Scot that we are seeing this level of violence. Politicians must do something about this problem. This is a serious public health issue. Violence is a cancer in this part of the world,” he said.
I agree. Violence is certianly a cancer eating away at the heart of bonnie Scotland.


Detective Chief Superintendent John Carnochan, head of the Strathclyde Police’s violence reduction unit, said the problem was chronic and restricting access to drink and limiting the sale of knives would at least reduce the problem.

This guy doesn't speak for the police as a whole. The police should have NO political agenda but to enforce the laws on the books, however, in this case we see them lobbying for a reduction in individual freedoms.


The study, by the UN’s crime research institute, found that 3 per cent of Scots had been victims of assault compared with 1.2 per cent in America and just 0.1 per cent in Japan, 0.2 per cent in Italy and 0.8 per cent in Austria. In England and Wales the figure was 2.8 per cent.

I've been stabbed before. I'm one of that 3%


Scotland was eighth for total crime, 13th for property crime, 12th for robbery and 14th for sexual assault. New Zealand had the most property crimes and sexual assaults, while Poland had the most robberies.

[cactusmaac]

Developed world?

Meh.

West Africa, Columbia, Yemen and Sudan and make the toughest Glasgow slum look like the Chelsea Flower show,

[BlairH]

Developed world?

Meh.

West Africa, Columbia, Yemen and Sudan and make the toughest Glasgow slum look like the Chelsea Flower show,

Oh I dunno. When I first saw Blackhawk Down I said "since when did Delta Force storm New Cumnock?"

[Jeff Brady]

This guy doesn't speak for the police as a whole. The police should have NO political agenda but to enforce the laws on the books, however, in this case we see them lobbying for a reduction in individual freedoms.

People get drunk, then stab people. Seems like if you take away those things, the stabbings will occur much less. It sounds like that police officer sees a cause-and-effect thing going on, and offered up a possible solution.

[BlairH]

People get drunk, then stab people. Seems like if you take away those things, the stabbings will occur much less. It sounds like that police officer sees a cause-and-effect thing going on, and offered up a possible solution.

It's not the police's place to dictate policy. We don't live in a police state as the police are not directley accountable to the electorate. It's up to our elected representatives to make the law, not the police, who are merely there to enforce the law.

The police should NOT have their own agenda.

Anyways, I am certianly not in favour of further restrictions being placed on alcohol or knives. Although my stance on this is probably beyond the scope of the thread, so I'll let it drop.

Are you in favour of "taking away" alcohol and/or knifes?

[Jeff Brady]

Stabby pointy sharp things? Nah, those can actually be productive tools, especially if you're in the woods, hunting, fishing or camping in general.

Alcohol? Sure, get rid of it. Impairer of judgment, cause of broken homes, families and people, cause of too many accidental deaths, destroyer of vital organs. There's no reason why it should be legal, along with tobacco. It's an intoxicant, many times worse than marijuana, yet that's illegal.

I'm not stupid; alcohol will never be prohibited again. More people are responsible with drinking than not. People are always trying to find a way to get high.

I agree that police aren't supposed to dictate policy. They are supposed to be thinking human beings, and finding solutions to problems is a damned good idea. Let the legislative body toy with the idea.

[Gaz]

Stabby pointy sharp things? Nah, those can actually be productive tools, especially if you're in the woods, hunting, fishing or camping in general.

Alcohol? Sure, get rid of it. Impairer of judgment, cause of broken homes, families and people, cause of too many accidental deaths, destroyer of vital organs. There's no reason why it should be legal, along with tobacco. It's an intoxicant, many times worse than marijuana, yet that's illegal.

I'm not stupid; alcohol will never be prohibited again. More people are responsible with drinking than not. People are always trying to find a way to get high.

I agree that police aren't supposed to dictate policy. They are supposed to be thinking human beings, and finding solutions to problems is a damned good idea. Let the legislative body toy with the idea.

Exactly, Blair, he's not telling them what to do, he's simply identifying what he sees as the problem and suggesting a simple (in theory) solution, something you yourself should be familiar with...

[Adam Crocker]

It's not the police's place to dictate policy. We don't live in a police state as the police are not directley accountable to the electorate. It's up to our elected representatives to make the law, not the police, who are merely there to enforce the law.

The police should NOT have their own agenda.

Blair, to be frank, I find this a little alarmist. The Superintendent's statements don't strike me as any different from the statement's I've read or heard by any other police official in regards to a crime problem. It is simply them making an observation about what they think is needed to handle the problem. And now I may not necessarily agree with it (such as asinine statements about marijuana being a threat society) but I hardly think this constitutes an agenda on the part of the police to dictate society's laws. It's simply someone in their respective field making an observation on how to handle a problem.

[BlairH]

Blair, to be frank, I find this a little alarmist. The Superintendent's statements don't strike me as any different from the statement's I've read or heard by any other police official in regards to a crime problem. It is simply them making an observation about what they think is needed to handle the problem. And now I may not necessarily agree with it (such as asinine statements about marijuana being a threat society) but I hardly think this constitutes an agenda on the part of the police to dictate society's laws. It's simply someone in their respective field making an observation on how to handle a problem.

Would a street cleaner petition the government to ban aluminium cans?

I don't see why the Policeman has taken it upon himself to take a stance on what is -essentially- a political issue. The police should NOT have their own agenda, and for such a high ranking policeman to have taken such a slant creeps me out.

Does this mean that the police should perhaps let their own personal biases interfere with their duties? What if it's decided that it'd be "easier" for the police if they could track every human being's movements via neural implants? I certianly know some policemen who would just LOVE to toy with that idea, but they don't make statements about it. They get on with their job as a public servant and enforce the laws already on the books.

Listen, I'm not a big alcohol drinker, and I don't own any knifes. However I realise that if people want to do such things, then by God they should be able to do such things. If they chose to break the law THEN the police should come into play!

[Gaz]

Would a street cleaner petition the government to ban aluminium cans?

I don't see why the Policeman has taken it upon himself to take a stance on what is -essentially- a political issue. The police should NOT have their own agenda, and for such a high ranking policeman to have taken such a slant creeps me out.

Does this mean that the police should perhaps let their own personal biases interfere with their duties? What if it's decided that it'd be "easier" for the police if they could track every human being's movements via neural implants? I certianly know some policemen who would just LOVE to toy with that idea, but they don't make statements about it. They get on with their job as a public servant and enforce the laws already on the books.

Listen, I'm not a big alcohol drinker, and I don't own any knifes. However I realise that if people want to do such things, then by God they should be able to do such things. If they chose to break the law THEN the police should come into play!

But heavens forbid an official identifies a problem and expresses an opinion when asked!

[Jeff Brady]

I don't see why the Policeman has taken it upon himself to take a stance on what is -essentially- a political issue. The police should NOT have their own agenda, and for such a high ranking policeman to have taken such a slant creeps me out.

That's a wimpy argument. Police are supposed to have an agenda: STOP CRIME. And if one crime in particular is happening more often, it's their job to figure out how to prevent it. They should pettition the legislative body, and ESPECIALLY the PEOPLE.

"Oy! You bloody stupid gits stop trying to kill each other when you get plastered!"

Look out, it's Big Brother!

[BlairH]

But heavens forbid an official identifies a problem and expresses an opinion when asked!

Not in his official capacity.
Would it be fitting, if I or anybody were say -an armed police officer- and I made a statement to the effect of "we should kill all terrorists on sight" would you approve?

It's an opinion. God damn hypothetical me for having a hypothetical opinion!

[BlairH]

STOP CRIME.
And that's where it ends. They shouldn't push for new crimes to be enacted.


"Oy! You bloody stupid gits stop trying to kill each other when you get plastered!"

This could be done by actually enforcing the law properly. I've seen police drive by drunken brawls and not even interfere "meh, just a drunken brawl".

Heck, even if the police -in their new legislative capacity- do get this prohibition law passed, do you think they'll enforce it?

[Jeff Brady]

You're not listening anymore, so I'm done.

[Adam Crocker]

Would a street cleaner petition the government to ban aluminium cans?

No, but he might say that if people stopped throwing out aluminum cans it would make his job easier. Of course the Superintendent isn't petitioning the government either, just making an observation regarding dealing with a problem the police have to deal with. And why not? He's the head of Strathclyde’s violence reduction unit. Sounds to me that trying to come up with solutions to handling violence is part of his job description.

Does this mean that the police should perhaps let their own personal biases interfere with their duties? What if it's decided that it'd be "easier" for the police if they could track every human being's movements via neural implants?

[...]

Listen, I'm not a big alcohol drinker, and I don't own any knifes. However I realise that if people want to do such things, then by God they should be able to do such things. If they chose to break the law THEN the police should come into play!

Of for the love of Pete. Do you have any idea how absurdly paranoid your statements sound? You're equating police officers making an observation regarding the conditions they deal with to them deciding to flaunt the law in favour of their personal biases. No it doesn't mean they should do that, though in upholding their duty I fail to see how it completely rules out them making statements regarding how the problems they have to deal with should be handled. I hear police officers do this all the time saying things like we need more officers on the street, we need tougher sentencing, etc. You're making more of this comment than its worth.

This could be done by actually enforcing the law properly. I've seen police drive by drunken brawls and not even interfere "meh, just a drunken brawl".

I have no arguments against that. Like I said I don't have a problem with police making statements on how crime problems could best be handled. Doesn't necessarily mean said statements correctly identify problem.

Heck, even if the police -in their new legislative capacity- do get this prohibition law passed, do you think they'll enforce it?

And just where is this alleged prohibition law you are referring to which the police are trying to enforce in their alleged new legislative capacity?

[BlairH]

You're not listening anymore, so I'm done.
Oh I hear you. It's just that I wholeheartedly disagree.

[BlairH]

I hear police officers do this all the time saying things like we need more officers on the street, we need tougher sentencing, etc. You're making more of this comment than its worth.

Petitioning for more officers on the street is an enforcement issue. Tougher sentencing is a judicial issue, and the police petitioning for this is a violation of the separation of powers, the main principle upon which our country is based.


And just where is this alleged prohibition law you are referring to which the police are trying to enforce in their alleged new legislative capacity?
This one here:

"Detective Chief Superintendent John Carnochan, head of the Strathclyde Police’s violence reduction unit, said the problem was chronic and restricting access to drink and limiting the sale of knives would at least reduce the problem."

[Adam Crocker]

This one here:

"Detective Chief Superintendent John Carnochan, head of the Strathclyde Police’s violence reduction unit, said the problem was chronic and restricting access to drink and limiting the sale of knives would at least reduce the problem."

Except he's not trying to put forth a law in any legislative capacity at all. He's not even petitioning the government. He's merely suggesting how the issue might be addressed.

[BlairH]

Except he's not trying to put forth a law in any legislative capacity at all. He's not even petitioning the government. He's merely suggesting how the issue might be addressed.
Aye. I suppose so. I suppose so.

In the UK we have what's called ACPO

http://www.acpo.police.uk/

These guys are policemen who regularly meet with the power brokers and lobby and petition for legislative changes. Now I'm going to declare an immediate bias against this group immediately rather than have it come up later: They're extremely anti gun to a degree that goes beyond current law. They wish to ban replica and deactivated firearms (I'll find a source. Heck, maybe it's on their website), they wish to ban shotguns that have a capacity of more than 2 shells (ie, anything that isn't an old double barrelled thing).

A little "talking shop" for the police and the legislature to get a little cozy... but as I said, I'm admittedly biased.

[Dee3]

Scotland has always been violent why do you think Hadrian built that wall :D

But sorry to hear about that Blair but booze always makes for trouble.

[BlairH]

Scotland has always been violent why do you think Hadrian built that wall :D
heehee! Those pesky Romans! What have they ever done for us?......lately?


But sorry to hear about that Blair but booze always makes for trouble.
As with all things, in moderation it's ok. I personally seldom touch the stuff (although I did have quite a bit a week or so ago...but that doesn't count ;) )

[Grant]

Scotland is a country? I always figured you just were England's backyard.

[Royal]

"Don't tak my buze away from me dabby!"

[K'Nort]

Now Scotland may be different. And Scotland Yard is actually in London, right? But you take your high-ranking officers, they have degrees in criminology. They study the stuff even on an academic level, they keep up on the trends, they attend seminars and conferences, etc. So they are qualified to know what is out there in terms of likely causes and solutions. Your average politician who is there for having nice hair, not so much. The fact the cop is an authority figure doesn't cancel out the fact he's also the authority on the subject matter. And the politician is not. Who do they think they consult with in coming up with these laws and regulations? I sure as heck want them listening to the experts.

[Draconomicon]

New Zealand had the most property crimes and sexual assaults,

NEW ZEALAND??
Impossible!

[Dan Apodaca]

And that's where it ends. They shouldn't push for new crimes to be enacted.

Why not? As a citizen with voting power, they have every right to make pursue their own agenda. After all, is this really so different from a teacher's union campaigning for new legislation?

[BlairH]

Scotland is a country? I always figured you just were England's backyard.

Aye, we are.
We have our own flag, our own church, our own parliament and even our own language.
I don't see why not!
http://www.britishcouncil.org/usa-education-330x220-scottish-flag.jpg

[Crinos]

Now frankly, I feel thats a bum wrap for Scotland. The People of Scotland are perfectly nice and friendly...

http://us.ent4.yimg.com/tv.yahoo.com/images/he/photo/tv_pix/fox/the_simpsons/dan_castellaneta/char_willie.jpg

Uh, alright then, well they certainly are sane, law abiding individuals...

http://rivendell.fortunecity.com/battlespire/85/mirrormaster.jpg

Crap! Uh, well, Scottish people are the most generous, big hearted...

http://www.mister-ed.tv/Scrooge%20McDuck's%20Photo%20Album_files/images/No_31_jpg.jpg

Oh I give up. :p

Oh, and just to clarify, this was a joke, I got nothing against the Scottish, seriously.

[MacQuarrie]

Scotland is not for the Squeamish (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/1886913560/104-4712564-0832745?v=glance).

[Grazzt]

Damn Scots! They ruined Scotland! :D

[Goliath]

People get drunk, then stab people. Seems like if you take away those things, the stabbings will occur much less. It sounds like that police officer sees a cause-and-effect thing going on, and offered up a possible solution.

"There's always a rock." If someone's drunk enough or has the motive, they will injure or kill someone any way they can, with or without a knife, fork, spoon, soup cup, I can think of some creative things to do with an Eiffel Tower figure, or a Seattle Space needle souvenier. Since the beginning of time, people have tried to kill people, it is our very nature, to deny that, is fool hardy and naive, but the definition of civillization is the ability to overcome human nature. There is hope if we care to open our eyes, but until then, be prepared to respond directly to those less civillized than yourself, because all the laws in the world won't mean jack with your head smashed open on the sidewalk, paid for by tax payers by the way.

[BlairH]

"There's always a rock." If someone's drunk enough or has the motive, they will injure or kill someone any way they can, with or without a knife, fork, spoon, soup cup, I can think of some creative things to do with an Eiffel Tower figure, or a Seattle Space needle souvenier. Since the beginning of time, people have tried to kill people, it is our very nature, to deny that, is fool hardy and naive, but the definition of civillization is the ability to overcome human nature. There is hope if we care to open our eyes, but until then, be prepared to respond directly to those less civillized than yourself, because all the laws in the world won't mean jack with your head smashed open on the sidewalk, paid for by tax payers by the way.

Indeed.
This policeman (his views are NOT shared by the majority of Strathy police) is using his position of power to call for increased restrictions on alcohol. This isn't going to prevent crime in the slightest. Folks are always going to get drunk and people will always hurt other people when drunk, and ther isn't a damn thing that can be done except arrest the people responsible. They should be penalised harshly (and no, alcohol intoxication is NOT a mitigating factor, because alcohol consumption is both voluntary and optional)

I put the question to the CBR posters: The police dude is calling for increased restrictions on alcohol. What form should these restrictions take? Are y'a;; in favour of restricting alcohol because it will "make the job of the police easier"? It's not the hob of society to make things better for the police. It's the job of the police to enforce the law...

...and that's all

[K'Nort]

You know perfectly well we're not defending his particular suggestion. We're defending his right/duty/qualifications to make that suggestion.

[BlairH]

You know perfectly well we're not defending his particular suggestion. We're defending his right/duty/qualifications to make that suggestion.


People get drunk, then stab people. Seems like if you take away those things, the stabbings will occur much less.

So what's this "we" that you were talking aboot?

[Jeff Brady]

I'm defending both 1) the right to make a suggestion, and 2) the actual suggestion.

[BlairH]

I'm defending both 1) the right to make a suggestion, and 2) the actual suggestion.

Indeed you are.
In what way do you reckon alcohol should be restricted?

[Trystenn]

So what wrong with all this violence?
Better than like rapes and stuff.

[Jeff Brady]

Indeed you are.
In what way do you reckon alcohol should be restricted?

Completely.

But like I said earlier, it'll never happen.

[StoneGold]

Christ, someone needs to introduce crack to Scotland already, apparently. That'll solve this alcoholism thing reall fast.

[BlairH]

Completely.

But like I said earlier, it'll never happen.

Yeah but in what way would you like to see it restricted? More stringent liscencing for retailers? Increasing the legal drinking age? Regulating bar/nightclub hours? Complete prohibition?

[BlairH]

Christ, someone needs to introduce crack to Scotland already, apparently. That'll solve this alcoholism thing reall fast.

Pfff! Watch Trainspotting already!
We practically INVENTED Heroin!

[Jeff Brady]

Complete prohibition?

That's what I meant.

Or maybe some sort of license to drink kind of thing, but that'd be harder to determine on an individual basis.

[BlairH]

That's what I meant.
Ah, I see.
Whilst I don't deny that the world would be a better place if alcohol was never discovered/invented/used in drinks, I wouldn't go as far as preventing folk from having the odd social drink. Plus, look how bad prohibition was in the US last century (the Mafia "got involved"-ahem-).

[StoneGold]

Pfff! Watch Trainspotting already!
We practically INVENTED Heroin!
Heroin /= rock. Heroin is an opiate. Brings you down. Can be fairly expensive. Crack, that's a stimulant. Takes you up. Cheap. Doesn't require you to find a vein or anything. Just suck that glass cock.

[Jeff Brady]

Plus, look how bad prohibition was in the US last century (the Mafia "got involved"-ahem-).

Yes, I know. That's why I know it'll never work.

[BlairH]

Heroin /= rock. Heroin is an opiate. Brings you down. Can be fairly expensive. Crack, that's a stimulant. Takes you up. Cheap. Doesn't require you to find a vein or anything. Just suck that glass cock.

And people think my gun knowlage is creepy! :D

[Gaz]

And people think my gun knowlage is creepy! :D
Um, I've never even taken a drink and I knew that.

[BlairH]

Um, I've never even taken a drink and I knew that.
He's not talking aboot drink. He's talking about drugs (crack)

[Gaz]

He's not talking aboot drink. He's talking about drugs (crack)
I know, and I know you smoke crack in a pipe, usually made of glass, which has a vaguely phalic shape, thus his joke. Whilst you CAN smoke heroin, it's traditionally injected.

[Flight]

You just need to watch an episode of River City for evidence on that.

[Gaz]

You just need to watch an episode of River City for evidence on that.
I try to avoid doing that, I value my brain cells. :p

[BlairH]

You just need to watch an episode of River City for evidence on that.

heh. I once had a bar of "river city soap". Interviewed the producer for my high school newspaper and at the end of the interview he said "What do you think of the soap?" to which I replied "It's an ok programme" then he interrupted "NO! I'm not talking about THE soap, I'm talking about...soap!"

strange guy.

[BlairH]

I try to avoid doing that, I value my brain cells. :p

To the extent that you hang around with a rambling Christian libertarian gun nut with extremely conservative values? Who constantly preaches the virtues of guns, conservatism and God?

[Flight]

he said "What do you think of the soap?" to which I replied "It's an ok programme" Couldn't you tell him the truth to his face???

[Gaz]

To the extent that you hang around with a rambling Christian libertarian gun nut with extremely conservative values? Who constantly preaches the virtues of guns, conservatism and God?
You don't talk about God THAT much... :p

[BlairH]

Couldn't you tell him the truth to his face???
Nah, I was afraid he'd put a bar of River City soap in his sock and beat me with it, Full Metal Jacket style

[K'Nort]

Whilst I don't deny that the world would be a better place if alcohol was never discovered/invented/used in drinks,

I will. Think of how many of us would never have been born, for one thing.

And more along your lines, how powerful would the British Navy have been without rum? They wouldn't have been able to shanghai crew in the first place, let alone keep them in line. Quite serious.

[BlairH]

I will. Think of how many of us would never have been born, for one thing.
haha! fair enough. :D


And more along your lines, how powerful would the British Navy have been without rum? They wouldn't have been able to shanghai crew in the first place, let alone keep them in line. Quite serious.
Hmmm, never really thought about it like that before.

I've often wondered that if alcoholic drinks were invented tomorrow, and it's effects were well known. Would it be outlawed immediately (like most other drugs)? Or would it be sold as it is today?

The reason I ask is that in my last year of high school, my Modern Studies teacher (A Criminologist by trade) often siad that, were alcohol to be discovered tomorrow, it would not be legal, and the only reason that it remains legal today is that it's a common practice.

[king mob]

I put the question to the CBR posters: The police dude is calling for increased restrictions on alcohol. What form should these restrictions take? Are y'a;; in favour of restricting alcohol because it will "make the job of the police easier"? It's not the hob of society to make things better for the police. It's the job of the police to enforce the law...

...and that's all


Have you spent a Saturday night (or any night) in any British city centre recently?

If you have then you would understand why the police are concerned with how alcohol (or more specifically, it's overuse and abuse) is fuelling massive amounts of drink related crime.

For example.......


Coming home from a very late night in Bristol city centre two weekends ago i saw 3 major incidents outside pubs/bars which stretched the police to their limits.The officers were clearly just in control, had there been any more then it's doubtful they would have coped.

So how do we stop it?

Well oddly enough, i believe 24 hour opening is a great idea as long as licenses are granted sensibly.So a little local pub which is well known for late night sessions and never has hassle gets the nod over a vile city centre neon hell-hole known for trouble.

Breweries need to stop making it so easy for people to get pissed really, really quickly in their venues.
They also need to make their venues such that they're not designed to drink lots-so bring back simple things like seats, quieter music and customers who don't drag their knuckles behind them when they walk.

We have to face the fact that Britain has a bad drink culture, it puts a massive strain on the NHS and the police.It does not mean that it should be banned (otherwise i would be a tad annoyed) but we need to be sensible about how venues go about their business.

[Flight]

Its going to get worse in Scotland when they ban smoking in pubs.

[StoneGold]

Its going to get worse in Scotland when they ban smoking in pubs.
Really? Because the evidence shows that when you ban the cigs, people stop in for a drink less, which would seem to stem most of the problem. When you're drunk at home, you're usually going to stay drunk at home.

[BlairH]

Really? Because the evidence shows that when you ban the cigs, people stop in for a drink less, which would seem to stem most of the problem. When you're drunk at home, you're usually going to stay drunk at home.
As you have often told me:
Cite some evidence.

[king mob]

Its going to get worse in Scotland when they ban smoking in pubs.


I wouldn't have said so, if anything it might make people think twice about being stuck all night in a crappy superpub.

[Jeff Brady]

As you have often told me:
Cite some evidence.

Dreadstar had a thread about bars closing from the smoking ban. Many bars in NYC have have closed or saw a huge drop in patronage.

[StoneGold]

As you have often told me:
Cite some evidence.
Man, if I was home, I could actually quote you direct stats taken by me when I was writing stories on this stuff. However, here's some quick and dirty links that show the drop in bar traffic causing bars to close in New York.
http://www.vfi.ie/aboutvfi/article_detail.asp?article_type_id=1&article_id=38
http://www.davehitt.com/facts/badforbiz.html
http://www.bcnys.org/whatsnew/2004/0720smoking.htm
I make no claims as to the impartialness of the links, I just grabbed them off a search. Not hard to find though. The key point here though is that smoking bans kill the bar business. Since everything we've been talking about has been drinking in bars...

[BlairH]

Man, if I was home, I could actually quote you direct stats taken by me when I was writing stories on this stuff. However, here's some quick and dirty links that show the drop in bar traffic causing bars to close in New York.
http://www.vfi.ie/aboutvfi/article_detail.asp?article_type_id=1&article_id=38
http://www.davehitt.com/facts/badforbiz.html
http://www.bcnys.org/whatsnew/2004/0720smoking.htm
I make no claims as to the impartialness of the links, I just grabbed them off a search. Not hard to find though. The key point here though is that smoking bans kill the bar business. Since everything we've been talking about has been drinking in bars...

Aight. I'll have a look at them.

[K'Nort]

As you have often told me:
Cite some evidence.

It's also a common sense one though. And plenty of the board has all sorts of personal experience. If you're drinking at home, you get too lazy to leave, for one thing. And why go spend money when you don't have to? True, every so often you'll get the freak who says "Hey! Let's go dancing!" But it's still quite common for folks to just settle in and pass out.