Don't drink in bars.

[PatrickG]

The new view is that it’s also law enforcement’s job to protect us from our own bad habits. In a 2003 sting operation, Fairfax, Virginia police officers entered 20 bars, administered breathalyzer tests, and arrested nine patrons for intoxication. Fairfax police Chief J. Thomas Manger declaimed: "Public intoxication is against the law. You can’t be drunk in a bar."

-- GENE HEALY

Cato Daily Commentary

July 3, 2005

[Jared_Humpherys]

I can't help but think of that old Ron White comedy sketch...

Anyways, IIRC, those cops are mistaken. Bars are privately owned institutions, and I believe owning a liquor liscense also allows for protection from that sort of thing.

[Jeff Brady]

I can't help but think of that old Ron White comedy sketch...

"I was drunk in a bar. They THREW me into public."

[hulahulk]

That's right. Technically the public can use it, but the bar owners can decide who can come in and who can't, therefore it is a private establishment. They can charge what they want for prices. They can decorate the place the way they want. Other than having to follow such things as liquor laws, town ordinances, building codes, etc., they can run the show. The cops were wrong.

[Spike-X]

It's good to see that the crime rate in Fairfax is so low, the police don't have anything better to do than basically make crimes up to arrest people for.

[Core]

It's good to see that the crime rate in Fairfax is so low, the police don't have anything better to do than basically make crimes up to arrest people for.

My thoughts exactly.

This Fairfax instance reminds me of the Actual Physical Control laws that exist in some states. These laws state that if you're drunk and have the keys to a motor vehicle in your pocket while intoxicated you can be charged with having APC of a vehicle while drunk. Basically, it's charging you for a crime you have the potential to commit, which of course makes no sense at all.

[Sir Tim Drake]

My thoughts exactly.

This Fairfax instance reminds me of the Actual Physical Control laws that exist in some states. These laws state that if you're drunk and have the keys to a motor vehicle in your pocket while intoxicated you can be charged with having APC of a vehicle while drunk. Basically, it's charging you for a crime you have the potential to commit, which of course makes no sense at all.

Obviously it doesn't make sense. There is a pair of scissors on my desk right now. Theoretically, I have the potential to stab my roommate with it. I hope that doesn't mean I can be arrested for attempted murder.

[Core]

Obviously it doesn't make sense. There is a pair of scissors on my desk right now. Theoretically, I have the potential to stab my roommate with it. I hope that doesn't mean I can be arrested for attempted murder.

Exactly. The APC laws and "public" drunkeness crackdowns in Fairfax are de facto prohibition efforts.

[Spike-X]

Exactly. The APC laws and "public" drunkeness crackdowns in Fairfax are de facto prohibition efforts.

Prohibition efforts, or soft-target revenue generating exercises?

[Erebus]

I read in the newspaper about this party in Fairfax, threw by a 16 year-old kid. The parents knew that a high school kid would want to drink, so they let them bring beer, but made all the kids give them there car keys so no one would get a DUI. That's probably the coolest and most responsible thing a parent can do, but they still got arrested.

[BlairH]

I read in the newspaper about this party in Fairfax, threw by a 16 year-old kid. The parents knew that a high school kid would want to drink, so they let them bring beer, but made all the kids give them there car keys so no one would get a DUI. That's probably the coolest and most responsible thing a parent can do, but they still got arrested.

That sucks!
Everything should be nice and legal providing it's on private ground and isn't disturbing anybody else.

[hulahulk]

I read in the newspaper about this party in Fairfax, threw by a 16 year-old kid. The parents knew that a high school kid would want to drink, so they let them bring beer, but made all the kids give them there car keys so no one would get a DUI. That's probably the coolest and most responsible thing a parent can do, but they still got arrested.


Uhhh, no. They got arrested because it was a minor. Minors cannot be in possession of, cannot consume, and cannot transport alcohol. Please understand I do not neccessarily agree with every arrest/incident, but those are very well-known laws. The parents were ignorant of the law, risked too much and paid the price.

[Sir Tim Drake]

Uhhh, no. They got arrested because it was a minor. Minors cannot be in possession of, cannot consume, and cannot transport alcohol. Please understand I do not neccessarily agree with every arrest/incident, but those are very well-known laws. The parents were ignorant of the law, risked too much and paid the price.

Right. To use another analogy, if I steal money from an undeserving rich person and give it to a deserving poor person, I'm still guilty of theft. My action was praiseworthy and socially responsible (arguably), but that doesn't make it any less illegal.

[hulahulk]

Right. To use another analogy, if I steal money from an undeserving rich person and give it to a deserving poor person, I'm still guilty of theft. My action was praiseworthy and socially responsible (arguably), but that doesn't make it any less illegal.

Thank you. And every "parent" who sponsors parties like the one mentioned above is a wannabe trying to either connect with their children or trying to relive their teenage/college years. THEY SHOULD BE LOCKED UP.

[StoneGold]

It's hard for me to pass judgment on anything with a snippet from a story from a blog that isn't linked.

[hulahulk]

It's hard for me to pass judgment on anything with a snippet from a story from a blog that isn't linked.

Good point, Denny.

[Spike-X]

I read in the newspaper about this party in Fairfax, threw by a 16 year-old kid. The parents knew that a high school kid would want to drink, so they let them bring beer, but made all the kids give them there car keys so no one would get a DUI. That's probably the coolest and most responsible thing a parent can do, but they still got arrested.
Actually, the most responsible thing a parent can do is to ensure that minors in their care aren't drinking. It's not a parent's job to be cool.

[PatrickG]

I think we're pretty regressive in terms of drinking age here in the U.S.

Anyway...


"The gendarmes are going into local area bars undercover, waiting for patrons to imbibe what might possibly be too much inside the bar, forcing them outside for a mandatory blood-alcohol content test and, if they fail, citing them. In some instances, eschewing the boredom of operating undercover, they are charging in with full, SWAT regalia, and pulling patrons outside the bar. All this with no evidence whatsoever the poor souls enjoying a drink at the local pub were going to get behind the wheel of a vehicle and drive under the influence."



One of the dozen patrons arrested during the sweep says his only crime was wearing a Santa suit, having a couple beers and singing “Jingle Bell Rock” into a karaoke machine. The instant he hit the last note a cop took him to outside and moments later he was taking a sleigh ride to the slammer.


Link:
Link (http://www.cato.org/pub_display.php?pub_id=3972)

More linkage. (http://talkleft.com/new_archives/001371.html)

Another link. (http://www.getmadd.com/BarsofVirginia.htm)

Archived from ABC News (http://www.prisonplanet.com/a_crime_to_drink.html)

Supposedly, there was a similar case in Salt Lake City this past January but the article has been pulled from the website. If anybody can find it, share.

What is all over the news about Salt Lake City is a rave which was raided by 90 police officers, SWAT in full millitary gear, dogs and tear gas grenades. As near as I can gather, the organizer claimed to have all the permits and insurance required but the police claim is that he was missing one or two forms. They had no warrant.

- One of the promoters friends (a very small female) was attacked by one of the police dogs. As she struggled to get away from it, the police tackled her. 3 grown men proceeded to KICK HER IN THE STOMACH.

Rave Link (http://www.drugpolicy.org/news/82205utrave.cfm)

Rave Raid Eye Witness (http://video.greatestjournal.com/node/212)

There is actual video footage of the raid out there if you dig for it.

[Royal]

Because we all know how dangerous Candys listening to GOA & waving their glowsticks really are. :rolleyes:

I hope soome guys rob a large bank in SLC after this.

Assholes.

[hulahulk]

Raves, where plenty of illicit drug use occurs, have little to do with the thread topic. Seems to me we have two different issues going. Yeah dumb police in the bar incident, just dumb police. Police brutality in the rave incident (um, if the rave was not a haven for Ecstasy, coke, and other substances, perhaps the SWAT Team would have just hung out and enjoyed the music with the "kids")? A situation gotten out of hand because a portion of the rave attendees were strung out and could not react rationally. And the police were hellbent on getting something accomplished that night (what, I have no idea). Bad mixture, folks.

[Spike-X]

A situation gotten out of hand because a portion of the rave attendees were strung out and could not react rationally.

Actually, it sounds to me like it got out of hand because they sent in a frickin' SWAT team to bust a few drug users.

[PatrickG]

I still like drunken Karaoke Santa getting busted in Fairfax.

I can see the commercials now:

"In Fairfax, Karaoke... is a crime. So be ready, offenders. Because police are on the lookout for drunks who think they can sing. Can't sing? Don't sing. Remember, friends don't let friends do Karaoke. One wrong note could land you... IN PRISON."

[hulahulk]

I still like drunken Karaoke Santa getting busted in Fairfax.

I can see the commercials now:

"In Fairfax, Karaoke... is a crime. So be ready, offenders. Because police are on the lookout for drunks who think they can sing. Can't sing? Don't sing. Remember, friends don't let friends do Karaoke. One wrong note could land you... IN PRISON."

And the more beers/drinks you have in you when you try to sing, the longer you spend in jail.

[Royal]

Raves, where plenty of illicit drug use occurs, have little to do with the thread topic. Seems to me we have two different issues going. Yeah dumb police in the bar incident, just dumb police. Police brutality in the rave incident (um, if the rave was not a haven for Ecstasy, coke, and other substances, perhaps the SWAT Team would have just hung out and enjoyed the music with the "kids")? A situation gotten out of hand because a portion of the rave attendees were strung out and could not react rationally. And the police were hellbent on getting something accomplished that night (what, I have no idea). Bad mixture, folks.

You've never been to a rave....have you?

Raves are not drug havens & they never were. The information you're basing this off of has roots in the LA Times, who, in a fit of stupidity & boredom, just focus on a small group of junkies who really shouldn't have been there in the first place. Thanks to LAT's so called "report", not only does the public liken raves to opium dens, but the statement was bolstered by an influx of assholes & junkies who never got the rave scene.

I'm not saying there isn't drug usage in Electronic culture, I am saying, thanks to the so-called "media", raves have an image they can't see to shake off no matter what they do.

Find Better Living Through Circuitry (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0207998/) & educate yourself.

[hulahulk]

You've never been to a rave....have you?

Raves are not drug havens & they never were. The information you're basing this off of has roots in the LA Times, who, in a fit of stupidity & boredom, just focus on a small group of junkies who really shouldn't have been there in the first place. Thanks to LAT's so called "report", not only does the public liken raves to opium dens, but the statement was bolstered by an influx of assholes & junkies who never got the rave scene.

I'm not saying there isn't drug usage in Electronic culture, I am saying, thanks to the so-called "media", raves have an image they can't see to shake off no matter what they do.

Find Better Living Through Circuitry (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0207998/) & educate yourself.


Don't tell me to "educate myself". I have no desire go to a rave. The ones that occur around here in this neck of the woods, I've been told, ARE havens for crap mentioned above. If you are so enlightened, then write your freakin' congressmen to help erase the "evil stigma" of raves. I'm done with this topic.

[west3man]

My thoughts exactly.

This Fairfax instance reminds me of the Actual Physical Control laws that exist in some states. These laws state that if you're drunk and have the keys to a motor vehicle in your pocket while intoxicated you can be charged with having APC of a vehicle while drunk. Basically, it's charging you for a crime you have the potential to commit, which of course makes no sense at all.
I'm sure someone has made the obligatory TimeCop joke, by now. If not, though... consider it made.

[Slam_Bradley]

Uhhh, no. They got arrested because it was a minor. Minors cannot be in possession of, cannot consume, and cannot transport alcohol.


Not true. In a number of states a minor can drink in their parents home with their parents presence and permission. It doesn't make what these particular parents did right. It was still illegal. But you're being overly broad in your statement.

[VCreed32]

I know a minor who said her parents gave her permission to drink (in MD), but how many sellers are willing to risk it?

[west3man]

I know a minor who said her parents gave her permission to drink (in MD), but how many sellers are willing to risk it?
My guess would be that it'd be up to the parents to purchase the alcoholic beverages, but it looks like what they do with it in their homes, with their children is another story... depending on the state.

I remember an under-aged co-worker telling me she drank with her family, but she said it was partly due to their Germanic roots. The part about the laws varying from state-to-state sounds mildy familiar. I'm glad Slam mentioned it.

[Slam_Bradley]

I know a minor who said her parents gave her permission to drink (in MD), but how many sellers are willing to risk it?


Unless things are different there than pretty much anywhere else, it doesn't work that way. The parents can allow them to drink in their home. Anywhere else is off-limits.

I get the same thing from parents on Curfew violations. "I said he could be out." Doesn't matter. The City Council says he can't.

[VCreed32]

Exactly what I thought and still think.

[HomerJay]

How freakin stupid.
If they were to start doing this in Milwaukee, they could build a new city hall out of solid gold from the revenues they'd pull in. After one month.

In a related story, a man was arrested in a health club shower for public nudity. No, not really.

[Royal]

Don't tell me to "educate myself". I have no desire go to a rave. The ones that occur around here in this neck of the woods, I've been told, ARE havens for crap mentioned above. If you are so enlightened, then write your freakin' congressmen to help erase the "evil stigma" of raves. I'm done with this topic.

That's the problem. "You heard". Who did you hear from & how well is the credibility to this subject? If it was from the media, then no, don't take they're uderstanding worth a grain.

And everybody has been writing congressmen. It's just that our congressmen are too chicken about their reps to actually learn & stand up for this.

[hulahulk]

That's the problem. "You heard". Who did you hear from & how well is the credibility to this subject? If it was from the media, then no, don't take they're uderstanding worth a grain.

And everybody has been writing congressmen. It's just that our congressmen are too chicken about their reps to actually learn & stand up for this.

My source was from teenagers I used to teach/supervise. They had first-hand experience. Some of these kids were troubled, yet trusted me enough to elaborate on some of their experiences. Without getting into detail (I just broke my own promise of being done with this thread), it is obvious that things can get out of hand in some of these sub-culture events. You seem to be defending casual illicit drug use. Stop it! It is attitudes like yours that perpetuate the problem. And I'm not talking about pot. That in itself is harmless compared to the other substances. ANY ILLICIT DRUG USE IS TOO MUCH. It does not matter if the stories about raves are exaggerated or not. There is still a problem. Okay, I've ranted enough. Now, I'm done with this thread. Royal, my hostility is not with you, my apologies.

[PatrickG]

See, maybe it's just my generation but whether the music is digital or not, I really wasn't aware that there was such a thing as concerts or clubs of ANY kind without illicit drug use. It just happens.

Dave Matthews Band, Hootie and the Blowfish, Kiss, Jimmy Buffet, Britney Spears, Wayne Newton, Faith Hill and Tim McGraw... I don't care what the concert is. There is some heavy drug use going on.

Only difference is, more people wear funky costumes or clubwear to raves.

Do I do it? No. Do I like it? No. But I think we need to encourage youth culture more. It's been too long since the days of Hippies, Beats or Flappers. Youth today are apathetic because we try to destroy every subculture before it catches on.

[Paradox]

Royal must go to some tame parties:

You've never been to a rave....have you?

I don't know about him, but I have...dozens.

Raves are not drug havens & they never were.

Really? All the ones I've been to were. Probably wouldn't have been as much fun if they weren't. Not that it was ever a problem or anything, though. Just a bunch of high folks dancing.

'Course, the bars around here are "drug havens", too...

[Spike-X]

it is obvious that things can get out of hand in some of these sub-culture events.

Unlike the relaxed, easygoing atmosphere of your average bar on a Friday night?

Seriously, how often do fights break out at your typical rave compared to any bar/club on any given night?