View Full Version : Why does the Ultimate Universe exist?
I read Ultimate Spider-Man, Ultimate X-Men, Ultimate FF, and the Ultimates, and while I thought that the "ultimizing" was a cool idea, I am slowly wondering why they did it in the first place.
Marvel had an oppurtunity to completely re-do all of these characters and tell us a whole bunch of cool stories, but it looks to me like these titles are slowly becoming regular 616 versions with curse words.
Why is all the same, or very similar stuff, happening in these stories that happened in the regular titles back in the day? Spider-Man is practically identical at this point to his 616 counterpart. I don't get it. Does anyone have anything to add? Agree? Disagree?
Shellhead
09-22-2005, 03:02 PM
It's all about the money.
Jake V
09-22-2005, 03:04 PM
To sell the same thing twice.
StoneGold
09-22-2005, 03:09 PM
To piss you off, and you off personally. They're out to get you.
CaptainAwesome
09-22-2005, 03:18 PM
I agree its all about money, but if you ask marvel they would say "its to bring new readers into comics without all the continuity" which is really a pretty good idea, but its the same thing they do with cartoon series based on comics, like Teen Titans. Most people would probably get confused if they saw all these different universes. On the other hand maybe marvel is building up to their own Crisis on Infinate Earths. That brings it back to the money thing doesnt it?
The Adventurer
09-22-2005, 03:23 PM
The Ultimate U has quickly became as confusing as the Regular MU with all these mini series they keep pumping out. The Continuity free line hasn't been true for a few years now.
Jean Grey becomes Slut Girl at the drop of Wolvie's hat. The Earth 616 Jean Grey would not do this.
Dark Soul # 7
09-22-2005, 03:26 PM
Jean Grey becomes Slut Girl at the drop of Wolvie's hat. The Earth 616 Jean Grey would not do this.
And I hardly see any resemblence in 616 Peter Parkerīs personality and his ultimate versionīs personality.
And I hardly see any resemblence in 616 Peter Parkerīs personality and his ultimate versionīs personality.What is lacking in personality similarity is more than made up for in plot similarity.
The Ultimate U has quickly became as confusing as the Regular MU with all these mini series they keep pumping out. The Continuity free line hasn't been true for a few years now.Obviously I don't expect Marvel to keep it continuity free, but I did expect these stories to be different than the 616 universe.
For instance, in USM, why does Gwen Stacy die? Why doesn't she stay with Peter? Why does she even have to exist in the Ultimate universe at all? Why does Green Goblin have to exist? I think it would have been cool if USM had Aunt May die instead of Uncle Ben, or both of them! If MJ didn't like Peter, or if Peter had another girlfriend entirely. Do you see what I am saying?
Jake V
09-22-2005, 03:45 PM
What is lacking in personality similarity is more than made up for in plot similarity.
Really? Ultimate Spider-Man just joined the Avengers, is married to Mary Jane, has an Aunt that know's he's Peter Parker, has organic web shooters, and recently realized that his dead girlfriend got knocked up by his greatest enemy?
Musta missed that story arc. Is it availible in a tpb?
StoneGold
09-22-2005, 04:01 PM
For instance, in USM, why does Gwen Stacy die? Why doesn't she stay with Peter? Why does she even have to exist in the Ultimate universe at all? Why does Green Goblin have to exist? I think it would have been cool if USM had Aunt May die instead of Uncle Ben, or both of them! If MJ didn't like Peter, or if Peter had another girlfriend entirely. Do you see what I am saying?
You're totally wrong on the Uncle Ben thing. It might make an interesting What If, but it's not at the core of the Spider-Man character, much of which is fueled by abandonment of male role models. It doesn't work the same at all if he's trying to keep his secret from Uncle Ben.
And Pete doesn't date MJ. He's dating Kitty Pryde.
The Adventurer
09-22-2005, 04:01 PM
Obviously I don't expect Marvel to keep it continuity free, but I did expect these stories to be different than the 616 universe.
For instance, in USM, why does Gwen Stacy die? Why doesn't she stay with Peter? Why does she even have to exist in the Ultimate universe at all? Why does Green Goblin have to exist? I think it would have been cool if USM had Aunt May die instead of Uncle Ben, or both of them! If MJ didn't like Peter, or if Peter had another girlfriend entirely. Do you see what I am saying?
Oh I see what you're saying, I don't read Ultimate titles for that very reason, it's just rehashing the same ol' same ol' in the end but with EXTREME SWEAR WORDS ACTION!
Ultimatly the whole line is just a glorified 2099 or Heroes Reborn universe, that some how has captured the minds of current comic readers.
I give the line another 3 years at most, then it'll start getting gimmicky and consolidate and eventualy implode.
StoneGold
09-22-2005, 04:03 PM
Oh I see what you're saying, I don't read Ultimate titles for that very reason, it's just rehashing the same ol' same ol' in the end but with EXTREME SWEAR WORDS ACTION!
.
And of course, you know all this because you don't read the line.
Doom Hammer
09-22-2005, 04:04 PM
Jean Grey becomes Slut Girl at the drop of Wolvie's hat. The Earth 616 Jean Grey would not do this.
Don't you mean...pants? :D
The Adventurer
09-22-2005, 04:10 PM
And of course, you know all this because you don't read the line.
Ok, I should be a little clearer, I don't BUY the line. I occationaly read the random book off the shelf to see if there's been any recent changes to make me interested in the line. So far, it's all rather dull and by the numbers.
StoneGold
09-22-2005, 04:16 PM
Ok, I should be a little clearer, I don't BUY the line. I occationaly read the random book off the shelf to see if there's been any recent changes to make me interested in the line. So far, it's all rather dull and by the numbers.
Then you'd know there are no swear words, extreme or otherwise, in the books any worse than the regular line.
The Adventurer
09-22-2005, 04:25 PM
Also a point, but that's why I don't read alot from the regular lines either.
My Marvel pulllist as of right now is...
Marvel Team-Up
Gravity
New Warriors
She-Hulk
GLA/GLX
Exiles
You know, the FUN comics. Writen by guys like Kirkman, Slott, and McKeever
Not the Bendis, Miller, Ellis, JMS, etc stuff.
Obviously I don't expect Marvel to keep it continuity free, but I did expect these stories to be different than the 616 universe.
For instance, in USM, why does Gwen Stacy die? Why doesn't she stay with Peter? Why does she even have to exist in the Ultimate universe at all? Why does Green Goblin have to exist? I think it would have been cool if USM had Aunt May die instead of Uncle Ben, or both of them! If MJ didn't like Peter, or if Peter had another girlfriend entirely. Do you see what I am saying?
Please, don't get me started on Gwen... wait, I just did start! There was NO reason to kill her beyond that, she was a great addition to the book and basically gave Peter a new dimension, a sister figure to go with May as mother figure.
The romance was the intent, but Bendis couldn't do it without it being totally contrived and out of character, so he left it at platonic.
Goblin IS different and he DOES have a different gf.
Really? Ultimate Spider-Man just joined the Avengers, is married to Mary Jane, has an Aunt that know's he's Peter Parker, has organic web shooters, and recently realized that his dead girlfriend got knocked up by his greatest enemy?
Musta missed that story arc. Is it availible in a tpb?Most of that is 616 Spider-Man, not Ultimate Spider-Man. If you look at spider-man stories from the sixties and seventies, you will see a lot of plot similarities between the first 80 or so issues of USM and those 616 spidey stories. It all seems like it is just being remixed to me - not a new story about a beloved character.
You're totally wrong on the Uncle Ben thing. It might make an interesting What If, but it's not at the core of the Spider-Man character, much of which is fueled by abandonment of male role models. It doesn't work the same at all if he's trying to keep his secret from Uncle Ben.
And Pete doesn't date MJ. He's dating Kitty Pryde.I agree with you stone as it relates to 616 Spidey, but I think it would have been more interesting to see something new in USM. I don't want Ultimate Spidey to resemble 616 spidey otherwise what the hell is ultimate about it.
As for the Kitty Pride thing. Spidey was dating MJ for about 70 issues or so, and I would bet my left nut he will be dating her again shortly.
Just wait until they Ultimitize the Clone Wars... Then you'll all be with me! :p
Ok, I should be a little clearer, I don't BUY the line. I occationaly read the random book off the shelf to see if there's been any recent changes to make me interested in the line. So far, it's all rather dull and by the numbers.I think you are for the most part warranted in that opinion, but I do have to say that Ultimates is the most enthralling of them, and contains a lot of great drama and work. It mirrors 616 the least of all the titles so far, but that may change. If you were to give any of them a try, that would be the one to go with.
Charagon
09-22-2005, 11:07 PM
In theory, the Ultimate Universe was supposed to be a kid-friendly retelling of the Marvel Universe. Something without 40 years of continuity to bog it down.
Of course, then Millar got ahold of X-Men and threw that theory right out the window.
Mr. Nobody
09-22-2005, 11:49 PM
If you look at spider-man stories from the sixties and seventies, you will see a lot of plot similarities between the first 80 or so issues of USM and those 616 spidey stories. It all seems like it is just being remixed to me - not a new story about a beloved character.
So what? The new stories borrow stuff from the old ones but they're different enough to be engaging, even if you have read the old series. You could say the same if you wanted to compare the Spider-Man comics to his very successful movie series. I'm not a big ultimate fan myself, but i realise these comics aren't being written for me or you, they're written for those not specifically familiar with the original stories. The comics from the sixties and seventies are great but audience expectations have changed a lot since then. I love em' but looking at them now you have to admit they're kind of cheesey, i have to be in the right mood to read them they're so different from what i'm currently used to. I see no problem with updating them if it brings them to an audience who wouldn't otherwise get to experience them.
If you want to read something new with these characters you've got the original series for that....well, that's the theory anyway.
Will.S
09-22-2005, 11:54 PM
Most of that is 616 Spider-Man, not Ultimate Spider-Man. If you look at spider-man stories from the sixties and seventies, you will see a lot of plot similarities between the first 80 or so issues of USM and those 616 spidey stories. It all seems like it is just being remixed to me - not a new story about a beloved character.
He was obviously being sarcastic.
Paradox
09-23-2005, 12:18 AM
All I can say is that I finally got bored with Spider-Man about twenty years ago, and Ultimate Spider-Man gave me back the one I liked. Good enough reason for me.
Paradox
09-23-2005, 12:20 AM
On a more business related note, it's also a place they can let creators "do what they want" to the characters without it messing with Marvel's licensing and merchandizing.
Alex Dragon
09-23-2005, 08:22 AM
I agree its all about money, but if you ask marvel they would say "its to bring new readers into comics without all the continuity" which is really a pretty good idea, but its the same thing they do with cartoon series based on comics, like Teen Titans. Most people would probably get confused if they saw all these different universes. On the other hand maybe marvel is building up to their own Crisis on Infinate Earths. That brings it back to the money thing doesnt it?
Well of course money plays a big part in why Marvel, DC or any company does anything. On the other hand, the way Marvel or any company actually makes money is by putting out product that people want or will purchase. The Ultimate line contines to be a success and exists for one simple reason: Because people like and buy the product. The titles have been strong sellers since their start. I know some people hate that fact and want the line to go away because of their selfish narrow-minded thinking. But the fact remains that many fans enjoy the line and some great writers and artists like being able to work on a line that isn't weighed down with contiuity and gives them the chance to do some new updated versions of characters
Alex Dragon
09-23-2005, 08:52 AM
I read Ultimate Spider-Man, Ultimate X-Men, Ultimate FF, and the Ultimates, and while I thought that the "ultimizing" was a cool idea, I am slowly wondering why they did it in the first place.
Same reason they did it in the beginning. To do an updated universe with some of it's most popular characters and to give new readers and old a universe without the years and years on dense continuity to deal with. For those people complaining that the Ultimate U. is getting or is just as hard to follow as the 616 U. or the continuity is just as heavy you've got to be kidding or just complaining to complain. There's no way that the 5 year old Ultimate U. is anywhere near as continuity heavy as the the over 40 year old 616 U.. 616 has had far, far more titles over the years, revamps, restarts, new stories shoehorned into old continuity, titles/characters that have come and gone several times, writers who try to disprove what other writers had written, and many many writers take on any given charcater. The Ultimate U. simply does have most of those things happening anywhere near that degree.
Marvel had an oppurtunity to completely re-do all of these characters and tell us a whole bunch of cool stories, but it looks to me like these titles are slowly becoming regular 616 versions with curse words.
Where are all these "cuss" words that the Ultimate U. is throwing at readers that aren't in the 616 U.? Please toss a few examples because I don't remember seeing any.
It's your opinion that the stories are slowly becoming like the regular 616 versions because in my mind they're becoming less and less like the 616 versions.
Why is all the same, or very similar stuff, happening in these stories that happened in the regular titles back in the day? Spider-Man is practically identical at this point to his 616 counterpart. I don't get it. Does anyone have anything to add? Agree? Disagree?
Disagree. For every one thing you could name that's similar I could probably rattle off 10 things that are different. If you're concentrating on the things that are similar that's your okay but it's not a fact that "very similar" stuff is going on.
The Ultimate Peter Parker of course has some of the same things personality traits of the 616 one because it's what makes him Peter but their subtle differences as well that you probably don't or can't or refuse to see. If you changed the personality too much it would be Peter.
tjarvis
09-23-2005, 09:15 AM
Jean Grey becomes Slut Girl at the drop of Wolvie's hat. The Earth 616 Jean Grey would not do this.
I dare say that's a bit harsh. The reality of the day is that teenagers do frequently have sex. Trust me, as a high school teacher I wish I had the power to make sure they all waited until they were at least in college before doing that, but I'm not that naive.
And having one fling with Wolverine hardly makes Jean Grey a slut.
Well, I can't really speak for USM and Spiderman but the Ultimates is very different than the Avengers.
There is no way they could have done those stories in the MU. Their personalities, relationships and histories are quite different from their counterparts.
The Ultimate lines exist to give an accessible entry for new readers. I don't think there was any higher thought than that.
Personally, I'm just glad they are keeping the line small. I really think in the long run that it will be to their benefit.
Where are all these "cuss" words that the Ultimate U. is throwing at readers that aren't in the 616 U.? Please toss a few examples because I don't remember seeing any.When I say that, I am comparing it to Marvel in the 60's, as I see this early ultimate universe as basically a retelling of the characters' origins. Of the four titles, Ultimates is quite different in many respects - and consequently my favorite of them. But USM and UXM in particular strike me as not different enough from their 616 versions to really justify a whole new line.
The Ultimate Peter Parker of course has some of the same things personality traits of the 616 one because it's what makes him Peter but their subtle differences as well that you probably don't or can't or refuse to see. If you changed the personality too much it would be Peter.I see all of the same things that you and other readers see and have pointed out. I just don't feel like much of that represents a major difference between the two universes, so that leads me back to my question of "why did Marvel take this route?"
The answer that is most prevalent is that they wanted new readers. That makes sense, but they also have the Marvel Adventure titles which reprint and update old stories. So, why didn't they try to do something unique with this ultimate universe? A new reader wouldn't know anything about these characters anyway, so I don't know understand why these characters need to conform at all to their 616 counterparts.
I dare say that's a bit harsh. The reality of the day is that teenagers do frequently have sex. Trust me, as a high school teacher I wish I had the power to make sure they all waited until they were at least in college before doing that, but I'm not that naive.
And having one fling with Wolverine hardly makes Jean Grey a slut.
Jean Grey, to be true to her character, would not sleep with Wolverine. Jean dated Scott for years before they actually had sex. Jean Grey is the girl next door. Ultimate Jean Grey is not. Yes, Ultimate Jean is Slut Girl. Wolverine is also a slut. But he is no different from his 616 counterpart. The only difference is Wolverine slept with a minor in Ultimate X-Men; it's called statutory rape.
Shadow Crawler
09-23-2005, 11:04 AM
I don't see how having sex once with one other guy makes her a slut. =/
BoosterBronze
09-23-2005, 04:04 PM
I don't see how having sex once with one other guy makes her a slut. =/
Ill agree with you there. I'll also add that having a nosering never made her "punk" or "goth" Jean Grey.
Having a goatee never made him "X-TREME!" Cyclops.
Jean sleeping with Logan was a pivotal (and shockingly different from MU) storypoint in the beginning of UXM. It had serious emotional consequences, made Jean feel weak and foolish, and made Logan look like a total jerk. It wasn't tacked on to make the book "Hip" and "cool."
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