Black Panther #8

[Loren]

This week's BP issue is the first to take place after the opening 'Year One' arc. It's also the second half of the crossover with "X-Men," and thus clearly takes place in the current day.

So what has me curious is, does the issue make it clear to the unitiated reader that several years have passed since #6? Since the opening arc never clarified its temporal setting within its pages, a reader new to BP could easily assume it was taking place in the present, but Hudlin said online that it was a Year One. Does this issue help to iron out any such confusion?

[Shellhead]

Don't know, cause Black Panther is dead to me as long as Hudlin is writing him.

[Cayman]

This was fun, although I was distracted at how different the settings look between the Adjectiveless X-Men issue and this one. Suppose it's just artists working toward similar deadlines that don't allow a lot of time to synchronize.

One thing that bugged me was that damned 4-Armed Gorilla. Did we learn nothing from John Byrne's Doom Patrol?

Cay

[Flight]

The X-Men were so out of shape in this issue! They messed up everything.
I'm embarressed at Havok's leader skills...

[Cayman]

The X-Men were so out of shape in this issue! They messed up everything.
I'm embarressed at Havok's leader skills...

Clearly, Carter did some weird mutant mojo to Havok's brain and that's why he can never seem to get it together.

That's my take.

Cay

[Keith_Martineau]

Okay, fine.

But what happened?

Basically, I don't wanna buy BP cause I never have, no interest, and I don't wanna buy X-Men because I dislike Milligan's writing on it.

But this crossover smells like the prelude to Storm marrying BP, and I wanna know what goes down on that regard.

[David Yardin]

This was fun, although I was distracted at how different the settings look between the Adjectiveless X-Men issue and this one. Suppose it's just artists working toward similar deadlines that don't allow a lot of time to synchronize.

Glad you liked it. Sorry you were distracted about the settings, but we actually did BP #8 before the X-Men #175, so it was kinda out of my hands.

[Cayman]

Glad you liked it. Sorry you were distracted about the settings, but we actually did BP #8 before the X-Men #175, so it was kinda out of my hands.

No big deal. It looked good.

Cay

[hbkabdul]

This week's BP issue is the first to take place after the opening 'Year One' arc. It's also the second half of the crossover with "X-Men," and thus clearly takes place in the current day.

So what has me curious is, does the issue make it clear to the unitiated reader that several years have passed since #6? Since the opening arc never clarified its temporal setting within its pages, a reader new to BP could easily assume it was taking place in the present, but Hudlin said online that it was a Year One. Does this issue help to iron out any such confusion?

I wonder how many uninitiated readers are sitting up all night contemplating wondering this exact same thing. Or maybe they really don't care.

[bushboy]

I wonder how many uninitiated readers are sitting up all night contemplating wondering this exact same thing. Or maybe they really don't care.
I dont really care. I love Hudlins BP and I cant wait for more. And there are some racial remarks made against people other than black in the first six issues.

[Loren]

I wonder how many uninitiated readers are sitting up all night contemplating wondering this exact same thing. Or maybe they really don't care.

How could they not care at all? Stories can get really darn confusing if you aren't straight with your readers about when stories are set.

For instance, in Flash #200, everybody was made to forget that Wally West was the Flash, including Wally. So when the story picked up a few months later, Geoff Johns had some characters observe that the Flash had been missing for a few months. The reader is clued in to how much time has passed.

Devin Grayson did the same thing in "Nightwing." She jumped the story ahead six months, and made that time lapse clear.

The stories in "Fables" can span months, and Bill Willingham makes sure that readers understand that events are happening over long spans of time, and not consecutively.

So it seems to me that if Hudlin jumps 7-8 years between "Black Panther" #6 and #8, then good forthcoming storytelling would require him to drop a mention that several years have passed. And it really ought to be done soon, or else Shuri could show up with a 6-year old nephew of T'Challa's in an upcoming issue, leaving readers to wonder how that happened between issues.

It's already in the position of having T'Challa be an enemy of the US in #6 and an experienced Avenger in #8. It won't take long for that discrepency to start affecting the stories.

[Volk1]

Glad you liked it. Sorry you were distracted about the settings, but we actually did BP #8 before the X-Men #175, so it was kinda out of my hands.

I really enjoyed the art on this one...cheers!

[CaptainAwesome]

I thought that this story was good, and the art was better than the last story. The main problem I have with Hudlin;s writing is the dialogue. I think the stroy is set right afert the events in the first story, because they are dealing with the ramifications of Tchalla taking over that neighboring nation.

[Crimson]

I thought that this story was good, and the art was better than the last story. The main problem I have with Hudlin;s writing is the dialogue. I think the stroy is set right afert the events in the first story, because they are dealing with the ramifications of Tchalla taking over that neighboring nation.

That would make no sense though... as some of the X-Men wouldn't be X-Men.

They really should of cleared this up in the Summary page at the start of the book.

[Sharcque]

I wonder how many uninitiated readers are sitting up all night contemplating wondering this exact same thing. Or maybe they really don't care.
I read it and I cared. Parts of the story indicated that it was shortly after issue 6, other parts clearly show that it can not be immediately after issue 6.

[Sean Whitmore]

I read it and I cared. Parts of the story indicated that it was shortly after issue 6, other parts clearly show that it can not be immediately after issue 6.


I assumed it was right after. BP has been itching to learn Niganda's secrets, and them annexing Wakanda is what finally gave him justification. Why would BP wait a few years?

I'm not gonna go into what I disliked, because it's all been said before. Continuity problems, whitey is evil, etc etc. Instead I'll make a much shorter post detailing what I liked:

1) BP's question, "Where are the real X-Men?" was hilarious. Havok's team IS pretty randomly put together. No telepath, nobody technologically gifted...and made up of petulant children.

2) The Super Apes. They might be the stupidest creations ever put to paper, but goddamn, they get around, don't they? :D Good for them!


SEAN

[KNICKNEVIN]

Last I saw those Apes, they were in a zoo in New Warriors. I haven't read BP #8 yet, but does it make any mention of that story, or why the gorilla has 4 arms (he never used too)

[Dennis K]

I liked it, except for the X-Men being in it.

[Sharcque]

I assumed it was right after. BP has been itching to learn Niganda's secrets, and them annexing Wakanda is what finally gave him justification. Why would BP wait a few years?

I'm not gonna go into what I disliked, because it's all been said before. Continuity problems, whitey is evil, etc etc. Instead I'll make a much shorter post detailing what I liked:

1) BP's question, "Where are the real X-Men?" was hilarious. Havok's team IS pretty randomly put together. No telepath, nobody technologically gifted...and made up of petulant children.

2) The Super Apes. They might be the stupidest creations ever put to paper, but goddamn, they get around, don't they? :D Good for them!


SEAN
If BP 1-6 was "Year 1" (and it was announced as such by both Marvel & Reggie), and this story followed immediately after that arc, then how can this current incarnation of the X-Men be in this story?

[Sean Whitmore]

If BP 1-6 was "Year 1" (and it was announced as such by both Marvel & Reggie), and this story followed immediately after that arc, then how can this current incarnation of the X-Men be in this story?


I dunno. :confused: I just chalked it up to being yet another continuity mutilation. I could be wrong, but nothing in the book seems to indicate it.


SEAN

[Sharcque]

I dunno. :confused: I just chalked it up to being yet another continuity mutilation. I could be wrong, but nothing in the book seems to indicate it.


SEAN
Yeah Sean, you're probably right......geez, why should I expect anything more?

[LoneWolf21]

2) The Super Apes. They might be the stupidest creations ever put to paper, but goddamn, they get around, don't they? :D Good for them!

Those the same monkeys from Spider-Man Human Torch and the current New Warriors series?

[Sean Whitmore]

Those the same monkeys from Spider-Man Human Torch and the current New Warriors series?


Them's the ones. :)


SEAN

[Cowlander]

Dont think their literally the same ones. The Red Ghost gorilla didnt have 4 arms right? So this is a new one, the orangatang hasnt been shown. And the baboon hasnt specifically shown magnetism powers yet. So its till up in the air.

[hbkabdul]

How could they not care at all? Stories can get really darn confusing if you aren't straight with your readers about when stories are set.

For instance, in Flash #200, everybody was made to forget that Wally West was the Flash, including Wally. So when the story picked up a few months later, Geoff Johns had some characters observe that the Flash had been missing for a few months. The reader is clued in to how much time has passed.

Devin Grayson did the same thing in "Nightwing." She jumped the story ahead six months, and made that time lapse clear.

The stories in "Fables" can span months, and Bill Willingham makes sure that readers understand that events are happening over long spans of time, and not consecutively.

So it seems to me that if Hudlin jumps 7-8 years between "Black Panther" #6 and #8, then good forthcoming storytelling would require him to drop a mention that several years have passed. And it really ought to be done soon, or else Shuri could show up with a 6-year old nephew of T'Challa's in an upcoming issue, leaving readers to wonder how that happened between issues.

It's already in the position of having T'Challa be an enemy of the US in #6 and an experienced Avenger in #8. It won't take long for that discrepency to start affecting the stories.


You are right. Hudlin never mentions when the story takes place unfortunately. With the fall of Niganda leaking over from the previous arc I would have to assume a short time after issue #6.

[hbkabdul]

I read it and I cared. Parts of the story indicated that it was shortly after issue 6, other parts clearly show that it can not be immediately after issue 6.

Go ask Hudlin and tell me what he says.

[hbkabdul]

Yeah Sean, you're probably right......geez, why should I expect anything more?

Yet you keep coming back for more. :rolleyes:

[Sean Whitmore]

Dont think their literally the same ones. The Red Ghost gorilla didnt have 4 arms right?


Isn't the gorilla the shapeshifter? Or am I mixing them up?


SEAN

[Sharcque]

Yet you keep coming back for more. :rolleyes:
True, but only because it was crossing over with a book I read.....you tell me, not when is this story happening, but how? BP 1-6 was a year one story. We all agree on that, Marvel says, Hudlin says. BP 8 has things happening that are right after BP 6, yet it is the current X-Men team. Huh? :confused:

[DattaBoy]

True, but only because it was crossing over with a book I read.....you tell me, not when is this story happening, but how? BP 1-6 was a year one story. We all agree on that, Marvel says, Hudlin says. BP 8 has things happening that are right after BP 6, yet it is the current X-Men team. Huh? :confused:

I am under the impression that Niganda has been in a constant state of anarchy and turmoil since BP killed their first dicatator. So I am guessing that it's been a couple years since the year one story and Niganda has had a couple of civil wars.

[Cowlander]

Yeah Milligan mentions, theyve been in a civil war between rival factions. BUt he never specifes a time frame. Technically in this instance it was Milligans to do. But with the previous arc, Hud would have done right to mention something also.

I know one of the Apes is a shapeshifter but I thoughjt it was the Orangatang. I know the Baboon os magnetic, cant remember the gorilla.

[Loren]

I am under the impression that Niganda has been in a constant state of anarchy and turmoil since BP killed their first dicatator. So I am guessing that it's been a couple years since the year one story and Niganda has had a couple of civil wars.

But is there anything in the issue itself to support that approach? Like someone saying "Niganda's been in a constant state of civil war for years"? I know the reporter in X-Men #175 (http://www.milehighcomics.com/firstlook/091405/images/xmen175p1.gif) didn't say anything like that.

I'm reminded of another comic where there ended up being oodles of fan confusion because the author failed to clarify the passage of time. The issue was Greg Rucka's "Gotham Central" #6. The first page was of a mysterious photographer taking photos of a bar at night, and the second page was of Renee Montoya leaving her apartment in the morning. When readers started debating the aspects of the issue's mystery and revelation, everything was thrown into a whole different light when the artist, Michael Lark, joined in to clarify that page 2 took place a couple of weeks after page 1. That's what Rucka had intended, but no one had interpreted it that way. Without any "Two Weeks Later" box to provide the setting, everyone naturally assumed that the morning scene immediately followed the nighttime scene.

What we have here appears to be unclear at the least, and continuity-scrambled at the worst. One thing that irks me is the notion that T'Challa would allow a civil war to rage next door to Wakanda for several years, without doing much of anything. At the start of Priest's series, there was a civil war next door, and T'Challa was taking in refugees and working to put an end to the fighting.

[Cowlander]

But is there anything in the issue itself to support that approach? Like someone saying "Niganda's been in a constant state of civil war for years"? I know the reporter in X-Men #175 (http://www.milehighcomics.com/firstlook/091405/images/xmen175p1.gif) didn't say anything like that.

I'm reminded of another comic where there ended up being oodles of fan confusion because the author failed to clarify the passage of time. The issue was Greg Rucka's "Gotham Central" #6. The first page was of a mysterious photographer taking photos of a bar at night, and the second page was of Renee Montoya leaving her apartment in the morning. When readers started debating the aspects of the issue's mystery and revelation, everything was thrown into a whole different light when the artist, Michael Lark, joined in to clarify that page 2 took place a couple of weeks after page 1. That's what Rucka had intended, but no one had interpreted it that way. Without any "Two Weeks Later" box to provide the setting, everyone naturally assumed that the morning scene immediately followed the nighttime scene.

What we have here appears to be unclear at the least, and continuity-scrambled at the worst. One thing that irks me is the notion that T'Challa would allow a civil war to rage next door to Wakanda for several years, without doing much of anything. At the start of Priest's series, there was a civil war next door, and T'Challa was taking in refugees and working to put an end to the fighting.
Emma says it in 175, she just doesnt say for how long tho.

[illusion]

Not having any intrest in Black Panther I do have to admit that Ive only picked up issues 7 & 8 becuse of the crossovers. as I read it I asumed that the events in 1-6 were recent continuity wise. Definatly not year one.

[Loren]

Not having any intrest in Black Panther I do have to admit that Ive only picked up issues 7 & 8 becuse of the crossovers. as I read it I asumed that the events in 1-6 were recent continuity wise. Definatly not year one.

That's actually been an assumption that a lot of readers have made. And it's been exacerbated by Hudlin's failure to state the story's setting on the pages of an issue.

But online, he made it very clear (after some initial confusion) that the first arc was a Year One (http://newsarama.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=27378&perpage=25&pagenumber=1). He calls it a Year One, rebuts the notion that it's a reboot, and states outright that T'Challa was not an Avenger during the opening arc.

He also said "How we plug into MU continuity will be sorted out later." Well, now it's seven months later, and folks are still confused. That's not a good thing.

[Loren]

Paul O'Brien of The X-Axis (http://www.thexaxis.com/misc/blackpanther8.htm) eats into Hudlin for all of the confusing continuity that this issue brings:

My problem with Black Panther is not that it changes history. I couldn't care less about the Black Panther's history. If they want to declare it null and void and start afresh, that's fine by me. They can reinvent the character as a Czech architect for all I care. But any fictional world needs to be at least passably coherent. So if you're going to change history, you need to be at least marginally clear as to what the new state of affairs is, because otherwise the audience is just going to be horribly confused. This is not the fault of the audience, however much some creators might like to think otherwise. . .

Meanwhile, while the story tells us on the one hand that the Black Panther's history has been deleted, on the other hand the past relationship between the Black Panther and Storm apparently still holds good. Or maybe it doesn't. Maybe it's just a completely new relationship which is somewhat like the previous one. Who the hell knows? . .

This is not skilful storytelling shaking off the shackles of oppressive continuity. This is just ****ing it up big time by producing a totally incoherent work of fiction, and trying to cover it up by dismissing continuity as the province of nerds. But the continuity wonks have only ever been guilty of making an exaggerated and pedantic version of a fundamentally good point; and it's a good point which this series spectacularly ignores, making for needlessly bad stories.

[xmanson]

Atrocious issue. Not only the X-men in this book are a complete joke, the new Panther is simply unbearable. What was his dialogue with Storm? She doesn't go to Africa because of him? Check BP #26-27 by Priest to see some fantastic take on their realtionship. Of course it's all in the trash can now. And the bit about the Paine guy is also lame. I really doubt he was still in Genosha when it got destroyed since it was a mutant country when it happened (well, that is continuity, so probably things changed). The dialogue went from awful to average at best. Pairing up two of the worst books from Marvel nowdays, what else could I expect?

I really hope this book get cancelled very, very soon.

And if the biug plans for Storm next year involver her interacting more with panther and any chance of being written by Hudlin, that's another character entering the loathing bandwagon.

[jj9126]

Don't know, cause Black Panther is dead to me as long as Hudlin is writing him.

Yep, wake me after they abandon this pointless reboot and bring Priest back to the title.

[Blaqueronin]

I have to agree with the guy above. I am glad I did not waste my loot. I was almost convinced from the previews that working with another writer might improve the quality of the book. I guess I was wrong.

[Neolucifer]

ok.... i'll admit i liked the 2 first issues of "New" BP , despite is evident disrespect of continuity... but this..

The action was good enough , and i liked BP pointing out the flaws of the Xmen team , and beating them ... but boy wasnt i distracted by the setting of the story!!!

Now we gotta speculate about wether BP 1-6 as a year one , happened a few years ago and could somehow fit into continuity , yet with still big continuity flaws ..or wether it is a year one story that happened just recently , then throwing out the whole PB history ...

I can only assume its the first option , given the Tchalla and Ororo scenes , however its utterly stupid..
How hard could have it been to write into the first panel a "4-5 years after the events of BP 1-6" ?? It would still be a mess , but a clearer one...

Hudlin needs to go , and thx god he probably will soon , because of his BET new assignement..
Sad thing is he definitely got good plots and a good sense of action . His stuff could have even been great if he had a real editor or an assistant writer around to fix his continuity mistakes .

I can only be glad he didnt used many existing characters in MK spidey and created a new one (imo MK Hudling spidey isnt great but doesnt sux) . And i'm glad that since "The other" is born from the collaboration of spidey writers , he'll probably have a leash tight enough to prevent screw ups .