Captain America (HoM) #10 - Review, Spoilers, & Discussion!!

[Beast]

I'm not normally one to start discussion threads for anything that isn't an X-Men book. Mostly because all I really read are X-Books, Young Avengers, and the Ultimates line. That said, I've decided for HoM to pick up all the tie-in books and have enjoyed them all on some level. Some are better than others, I will admit that. New Thunderbolts lost me completely, mostly because I didn't know who half these people are. But I know Captain America, even though I've never actually bothered to read the exploits of the good Captain.

That said, let's cut to the chase. We all know what happened, Scarlet Witch lost her mind and woogied the reality for our favorite heroes and villains. The mutants are the dominant species, and the sapians are the opressed minority. Along the way, she's granted some of the heroes their fondest wishes. And it appears that for Steve Rogers, that wish was to not be frozen during WWII and thawed out decades later. The book starts with a honorary banquet for Steve at the local Veteren's Hall. And from there, the flashbacks begin.

The first one introduces us to Captain America and his sidekick Bucky in action in April of 1945. The place, the English Channel. They're clinging to what I assume is an experiment drone plane of Baron Zemo. They manage to gain control of it, and send it back twords the Baron's castle. After an amazing explosion that kills Baron Zemo, we find Cappy and Bucky floating in the ocean. I assume this is where Wanda's woogie diverges. That Bucky was supposed to have died, and Cappy frozen in a block of ice. If I'm incorrect, remember that I've never been a close follower of Captain America. But then I'm an X-Books only sorta guy.

Next we see Captain America and The Invaders (Human Torch I, Toro, Namor, Bucky, and I assume Nick Fury and his Howling Commandos) attacking Berlin the same month and year. After killing the Red Skull and someone else, they capture Hitler from his bunker. He's going to be brought to justice for his war crimes, instead of commiting suicide in his bunker as happened in the original history. A year later, we see Steve Rogers meeting with President Trumen at the White House. He asks the President if it's ok that he gets married. Of course Trumen has no objections, but reminds him that America may need to call on him at any time. He also questions him about these 'Mutants' he's been hearing about.

Five years later in 1951, Steve Rogers is testifying infront of the 'Senate Hearings On Mutant Activity in the United States'. It's shown to be as much of a witch hunt as the same hearings on Communism. He's infact questioned by Senator McCarthy about his wedding picture, which has him standing next to Namor. McCarthy is irate that Cappy refuses to answer questions about Namor, stating that mutants are starting to infiltrate all aspects of our society and trying to spread their message to children. The questioning shifts to Toro, and once again Cappy refuses to answer any questions about him. McCarthy chastizes him, stating that his uniform puts him under their command as much as the President does. That said, Steve Rogers pulls off his mask and officially retires as Captain America. A rather ballsy move from ole Cappy.

Four years later, we see Steve Rogers being the first man to land on the moon. He's asked for something newsworthy as the first words spoken on the lunar surface, and delivers quite a bomb. "This is one small step for man... one giant leap for peace between man and mutant-kind." Of course the press has a field day with this. Nasa spins it by stating that it was thru the combined work of human and mutant scientists that the United States was able to reach the moon so early in the space race. Russia is behind due to the fact that mutants there are banne from scientific work. Steve's wife Peggy chews him out for his 'speech' on the moon. Both her and Bucky are now working for S.H.I.E.L.D. as agents.

Two years later, we see Steve and Bucky in New York City sharing a beer. Peggy and Steve have broken up, due to several problems stemming from his job and his position on mutants. Bucky confirms that he probably would have refused to answer questions about Toro as well, had anyone bothered to ask him. Bucky himself seems to be fairly paranoid of mutants now as well, stating that the mutant issue isn't as 'Black and White' as it appears. He says that sure there's some good ones like Toro, but there's also mutant terrorist cells springing up in Eastern Europe as they speak. That they're a greater threat than normal human terrorists, because they are the weapons. Their powers give them the means to kill, they don't need bombs for that.

Decades pass in the flashbacks, and Steve starts to see that in some ways Bucky was right. It's not black and white, there are shades of grey as well. Heroes and leaders as well as Criminals and Despots. After all, why should mutants be any different than anyone else. Soon he bore witness to the rise of Magneto, and his victory over the Sentinel Program in the early 70's. And that once that happened, Magnus became recognized as almost a world leader. He was meeting with the U.N. and discussing ideas with them. But Steve saw that at the heart of matters, some of Magneto's plans for the future sounded too much like things that people like Mussolini, Stalin, and even Hitler had spoken of before.

His vocal attitude in relation to Magneto, soon led to him being forced to take early retirement from the Air Force. It seems Magneto had made much more headway into the system than anyone expected. And after that, the only people that wanted to hear him or talk to him were radical Anti-Mutant groups. Bucky's job with S.H.I.E.L.D. led to him being killed in the line of duty. Apperantly he was killed due to something having to do with Genosha, but the circumstances were classified. Steve was prevented from even speaking at the funeral. And in time, S.H.I.E.L.D. became just another arm of Magneto's vast empire. This ends the flashbacks, as the honorary dinner at the Vetern's Hall comes to a close.

Steve walks the long walk home, questioning the last fifty years of his life since walking on the moon. Going down to the subway, he's knocked aside and verbally abused by a couple of mutant teenagers. Steve just walks away, continuing to question life. Is this the world that he faught so hard for? That Bucky and so many others died for? A world where more and more, humans are being pushed aside by mutants. He finally decides that life wasn't too shabby. He captured Hitler and got to walk on the moon. He remebers something Peggy always used to say. "You got everything you ever wanted, Steve Rogers, if the world didn't turn out how you thought it would, well that's life." Still he thought it would be a lot different world than this. The last panel shows him walking home, watched from the rooftops by Wolverine, Emma Frost, Luke Cage, Spider-Man, and Lalya Millar.

All in all a very good issue. There's a few continuity issues, especially with it being nighttime and the folks from HoM watching Steve head home instead of leaving home in HoM. But that can be excused, as I'm sure everything was being written at the same time and we just need to no-prize away the small issue. Maybe Wanda sneezed and made another minor woogie. That said, I think it was one of the better HoM tie-ins. Easy to follow, even for a non-Cappy fan like myself. I won't continue to get the series, but I was very happy with what I did get to read. Bravo to Mr. Bruebaker for his excellent script and Mr Weeks and Mr. Delpeerdang for pencils and color.

[Red State Cap]

Issue #10 is the tie-in with the House of M miniseries.
The issue opens at a dinner in honor of Cap, at which old friends are speaking about his past.
We learn that Cap managed to save Bucky, killing Baron Zemo in the process. After that, Cap goes on to lead American forces in the capture of Berlin. Other Invaders kill Master-Man, and the Red Skull dies in combat with Captain America. Subsequently, Cap and Bucky capture Hitler alive to stand trial.
In the immediate post-war years, Cap marries Peggy, although it seems they never have children.
Later, Cap is called before the U.S. Senate committee investigating mutant activity, chaired, of course, by Mr. McCarthy. Cap is raked aver the coals and refuses to "rat" on former mutant friends Namor and Toro. Of course, what Mr. Brubaker thinks Cap could possibly say about Namor and Toro, who served with the U.S. military in the war, is puzzling to say the least. It seems that his intent is simply to draw the communist-hunt/mutant-hunt parallel. Whatever. Anyways, Cap refuses to give testimony and resigns in disgust.
Immediately Cap begins pulling strings to get himself into the astronaut program, and he is the first to land on the moon in 1955. The U.S. is 14 years early in doing this due to the cooperation of mutant scientists. This brings up a plot hole: How could mutant scientists be heavily involved in the U.S. space program, when Cap just resigned shortly before because the U.S. government was persecuting mutants?
Sometime after the moon landing, Peggy divorces him because he wasn't willing to go on being Cap, or join Shield like Bucky did post-war. She does not like his pro-mutant stand. She apparently also did not like "being an astronaut's wife." How this could be much different or more dangerous than being a super-hero's wife is unclear.
As the years went on he noticed that Magnus was starting to co-opt the U.S. government, and spoke out about it, likening him to Hitler. He became officially persona non grata after that. It gets a little hazy just what Steve did over the last 50 years, besides live alone in rather quiet retirement.
As he leaves his honorary dinner, he's accosted by a couple of mutant thugs, and wonders to himself how things ended up as they are.

I will cut right to the chase and say that CA #10 is by far the weakest of Mr. Brubaker's 10 issues. It seems to me that there was absolutely no reason to interrupt the Winter Soldier arc for this. We learn nothing of interest about HoM, so there is no reason to buy it just because you're buying that series. On its own, it's a very weak issue, worthy at best of being a "What If?" story. A couple of plot holes make the logic questionable.
I didn't buy it, and I guess I will just have to wait a few weeks to see if #11 leads me to drop the book entirely.

RSC

[thik_3rd]

i disagree on a lot of this. it might have been the best bru issue yet. 7 and this are kinda tied for me. and it's easily the best hom issue (tie-in or main).

10/10

[hbkabdul]

I will cut right to the chase and say that CA #10 is by far the weakest of Mr. Brubaker's 10 issues. It seems to me that there was absolutely no reason to interrupt the Winter Soldier arc for this. We learn nothing of interest about HoM, so there is no reason to buy it just because you're buying that series. On its own, it's a very weak issue, worthy at best of being a "What If?" story. A couple of plot holes make the logic questionable.
I didn't buy it, and I guess I will just have to wait a few weeks to see if #11 leads me to drop the book entirely.

RSC


I dunno about this issue. Its my first time actually BUYING cap by brubaker and it wasnt great but wasnt bad either. somewhere in the middle. what plot holes in the story made the logic questionable though? besides the ending with the emma, cage and the rest looking down on cap. at best this was just a side note to the house of m a different perspective that ended solemnly.

[Red State Cap]

I dunno about this issue. Its my first time actually BUYING cap by brubaker and it wasnt great but wasnt bad either. somewhere in the middle. what plot holes in the story made the logic questionable though? besides the ending with the emma, cage and the rest looking down on cap. at best this was just a side note to the house of m a different perspective that ended solemnly.
The plot holes -- perhaps I should have said "logical inconsistencies" -- are these:
1) After resigning, Cap became an astronaut and set foot on the moon in 1955, the result of mutant scientists helping the space program along far in advance of how it happened historically. Well, Steve resigned as Cap and joined Nasa because the U.S. govt was persecuting mutants. So how are mutants responsible for the space program within a very short time? At any rate the whole idea of him joining the space program (which was first hinted at in #2 or so) is more than a little contrived to me.
2) Cap's "testimony" before Sen. McCarthy's anti-mutant committee is puzzling. What "evidence" does Mr. Brubaker think that Cap could give against Namor and Toro? They served with the U.S. military for years. What is the point of this, other than a very poor comparison between the "anti-communist" investigation and the "anti-mutant" investigation?
3) Peggy's attitude and their subsequent split is inconsistent and (IMO) unbelievable, not to mention that Cap acts (until it is too late) like he has blinders on and is completely unconcered with his wife's opinion.

I've liked Mr. Brubaker's first 9 issues a lot (even though I've had the odd gripe) but this issue I'm declining to buy simply on the basis of quality.

RSC

[cosmicspidey]

I thought this issue of cap was one of the better HoM tie-ins they've done. I loved seeing the history of the HoM universe, from mutants being put on trial instead of communists to McCarthy, to Cap being blacklisted himself for speaking out against Magnus early on, to landing on the moon 14 years early because they let mutant scientists help. It really was just a "What if Bucky hadn't died?" story combined with a "What if mutants rose to power earlier?" story, but that's not necesarily a bad thing. I was more pleasantly surprised by this book than any other this week.

[deadcheeze]

this run of CA has been one of the best and this issue really seemed forced. Alternate universe cap did a bunch of stuff that doesn't matter and that will be wiped out in a couple of months anyway. Give me my winter soldier.

[Beast]

this run of CA has been one of the best and this issue really seemed forced. Alternate universe cap did a bunch of stuff that doesn't matter and that will be wiped out in a couple of months anyway. Give me my winter soldier.
It's not an alternate universe Cap it's an altered reality Cap. It's the real 616 Captain America, effected by reality manipulation that heavily changed history.

[ColdFury]

It's not an alternate universe Cap it's an altered reality Cap. It's the real 616 Captain America, effected by reality manipulation that heavily changed history.

Sorry, but I've seen this statement flow around way too many times lately. That's like saying "It's not fat free cheese! It's just cheese without all the fat!"

Sure, maybe they come about by a slightly different straining process, but fat-free cheese is still fat-free cheese.

House of M might be 'The 616' reality, but it's still an 'alternate universe' story.

Just without the fat.

*rimshot*

[Beast]

That's because the statement is official fact from Marvel. It's not an alternate universe story. Because it's the real 616 reality, which has been altered by Scarlet Witch. It doesn't automatically get another Universe Number Designation because there's been changes to it's reality. Note the biggest difference and why it's not an alternate reality, is because when things get put back together at the end of the mini, not everything is going to be put back correctly. If it was an alternate reality, it wouldn't effect the 616. But being an altered reality, it does. It's no different than when Kulan Gath did his spell back in the 1970's books which altered New York into the Hyborian Age. It didn't make New York break off from the universe and become a new alternate reality. It was just an altered reality existing in the place the other one once did.

[ColdFury]

That's because the statement is official fact from Marvel. It's not an alternate universe story. Because it's the real 616 reality, which has been altered by Scarlet Witch. It doesn't automatically get another Universe Number Designation because there's been changes to it's reality. Note the biggest difference and why it's not an alternate reality, is because when things get put back together at the end of the mini, not everything is going to be put back correctly. If it was an alternate reality, it wouldn't effect the 616. But being an altered reality, it does. It's no different than when Kulan Gath did his spell back in the 1970's books which altered New York into the Hyborian Age. It didn't make New York break off from the universe and become a new alternate reality. It was just an altered reality existing in the place the other one once did.

So... you're saying the cheese doesn't have fat, but it isn't fat free cheese?

I know, I know, I know. Joe Q & Brian B have bent over backwards trying to make sure this doesn't get dismissed as another 'alternate reality story'. And I understand that this story will have repurcussions (theoretically, anyway) in the real marvel universe, and is taking place in the real marvel universe, modified.

But you can still summarize the main concepts of the story by starting with 'What if...'. It's still an alternate take on what things would be like if certain elements were changed.

So it may not fit the cookie cutter mold of 'alternate reality' stories, and it may not take place *IN* an alternate reality, it's still a story that uses an 'altered reality' as its primary plot device. So it's still an alternate reality story.

It's sort of like saying that "Bill & Ted's Excellent Adventure" isn't a time travel story. Sure, there's lots to it ASIDE from the time travel, and it doesn't fit the archetype carved out by "Back to the Future". But it is still a time travel story.

I'm not criticizing you for using the same thing that Joe Q and Bendis have been throwing everywhere, but to throw it up as a response to a criticism that called Cap #10 just another 'alternate reality' storyline (which, for the context of Captain America #10 it is really much more evident that it is) is pretty folly. The "Not an Alternate Reality story" thing is marketing shtick, meant to keep us from dismissing it as jaded 'been there, done that, it'll all be the same after' fan boys.

Smart move on their part, but I don't see trumpeting it in this case as advantagious at all.

[Nick Kal]

This is the single best title of my life. I absolutely love it. This issue isn't only the best HoM tie-in but maybe the best issue of the year. So good, so intelligent, so amazing.

[Brady]

HoM is an alternatie reality for all intents and purposes. The rest is semantics.

[Jake V]

An alternate reality occurs when some singular shift in the past creates a divergence in the timestream causing reality to unfold in a different way.

An altered reality, like HoM, is the exact same world as normal, but with many very specific changes to certain physical properties, as well as the population's memories. There is no single shift in the timestream to make reality unfold differently, but individual changes, intelligently designed by a combination of Magneto, Quicksilver, Scarlet Witch and Xavier.

It's a pretty significant difference.

[Kirk G]

An alternate reality occurs when some singular shift in the past creates a divergence in the timestream causing reality to unfold in a different way.

An altered reality, like HoM, is the exact same world as normal, but with many very specific changes to certain physical properties, as well as the population's memories. There is no single shift in the timestream to make reality unfold differently, but individual changes, intelligently designed by a combination of Magneto, Quicksilver, Scarlet Witch and Xavier.

It's a pretty significant difference.
How many angels can dance on the head of a pin?

How do we know that there wasn't a single specific event that altered the timestream? Perhaps the absence of Prof X? Perhaps a critical factor, like the end of Genosha that didn't happen? I think it's still to early to tell....
Wait and see... :eek:

[Jake V]

How many angels can dance on the head of a pin?

How do we know that there wasn't a single specific event that altered the timestream? Perhaps the absence of Prof X? Perhaps a critical factor, like the end of Genosha that didn't happen? I think it's still to early to tell....
Wait and see... :eek:
Well, with this being a Captain America #10 thread, it would have to have been something that happened before the 1940's and caused Cap and Bucky to get off the experimental plane, allowing Bucky to live and Cap to not get frozen.

You think a Xavier disappeared before 1941?

Decades before he was born, I mean.

:)

[OMGDRAN]

Well, with this being a Captain America #10 thread, it would have to have been something that happened before the 1940's and caused Cap and Bucky to get off the experimental plane, allowing Bucky to live and Cap to not get frozen.

You think a Xavier disappeared before 1941?

Decades before he was born, I mean.

:)


Actually Prof X should have been alive in WW2. He fought in the Korean War with his step brother Cain.


I thought this issue was awesome. It has less to do with a HOM i thought and more to do with how a man who holds the highest ideals of this country watches it slowly lose its way in the world. This could have been an entire miniseries in my opinion.

[Jake V]

Actually Prof X should have been alive in WW2. He fought in the Korean War with his step brother Cain.
That was retconned due to the fact that Xavier's age in present day (2005) is somwhere in his 40's. The whole sliding Marvel timeline and all.

[Dennis K]

A throw-away House of M tie-in with artwork I didn't like. D-

[OMGDRAN]

That was retconned due to the fact that Xavier's age in present day (2005) is somwhere in his 40's. The whole sliding Marvel timeline and all.


so magneto was never in a concentration camp then?

[Beast]

so magneto was never in a concentration camp then?
Magneto was. Like Captain America, he's one character that depends on being anchored in the 1940's. That's the one problem with having it necessary to have his core character tied to the nazi concentration camp. But when he was regressed to an infant and then later re-aged, he was aged to a point where his body was in it's prime. So while he's very old chronologically, his physical body doesn't reflect that age. Plus there's some info about his connection to the magnetic fields of the earth actually helps retard his aging.

[Jake V]

so magneto was never in a concentration camp then?
Magneto and Xavier aren't the same person.

[Spamotron]

No but they used to be roughly the same age as best friends having adventures together.

[Jake V]

No but they used to be roughly the same age as best friends having adventures together.
Not anymore.

But then, it's not unheard of to be friends with people who are older than you.

[Beast]

No but they used to be roughly the same age as best friends having adventures together.
Well, originally they didn't even know each other. And then when Claremont took over duties after Giant Size X-Men #1, he worked to make the characters more living and breathing. They never stated exactly how many years after WWII that Xavier and Magneto got together to have their adventures. And again, you have to assume the sliding timescale there as well. The adventures still happened, just the timeframe keeps getting moved further and further forward to accomidate Xavier's age.

[Beast]

Also, we need to recall that Xavier has a 'Get Out of Jail Free' card in regard to his age as well. After all, he was given a clone body by the Shiar that was also in his prime. It's best to ignore Jean's mention of Xavier's age in New X-Men being 41. As it doesn't fit with the numbers, as I don't believe that Charlie was only 30 in Uncanny X-Men #1. I assume he's at least 10 years older than that. But his body doesn't fit his chronological age either.

[Jake V]

Even if he was 40 for Uncanny #1, given the 10 year rule, he should only be in his 50's now. Too young to be around for WW2.

[Beast]

Even if he was 40 for Uncanny #1, given the 10 year rule, he should only be in his 50's now. Too young to be around for WW2.
Oh, I know that. I'm just saying that Xavier has an 'out' for his age also. His Shiar cloned body. Though I think when he finally dies, he should continue to exist astrally. That way he can pop up like Obi-Wan Kenobi as a blue glowie ghost and advise his X-Men. :D

[Ryan K]

I liked this a lot. But I have one problem that I can't get out of my head.

None of the flashback stuff happened. They're just altered memories. When reality was altered in The House of M, the past didn't change, just the present. So yeah Cap's old now, but those things we saw never happened. He just remembers them. Everyone does. But someone like say the Watcher never would have witnessed these things.

I guess I just have a small problem with that. Don't ask me why.

But it was a good issue.

[Nick Kal]

I liked this a lot. But I have one problem that I can't get out of my head.

None of the flashback stuff happened. They're just altered memories. When reality was altered in The House of M, the past didn't change, just the present. So yeah Cap's old now, but those things we saw never happened. He just remembers them. Everyone does. But someone like say the Watcher never would have witnessed these things.

I guess I just have a small problem with that. Don't ask me why.

But it was a good issue.

Wrong. Everything changed. The heroes were given what they wanted. If this meant that the past had to be altered to give Cap the present that he wanted, then it happened.

[Ryan K]

Wrong. Everything changed. The heroes were given what they wanted. If this meant that the past had to be altered to give Cap the present that he wanted, then it happened.

Where's it say that? I was under the impression the present has just sort of been altered like a very impressive glamour (for lack of a better term). The past has been altered to shpe this, but only in the minds of everyone right? I've not read anything to suggest that the timeline was actually restarted and proceede altered to accomodate changes. That's EXTREMELY powerful.

You may be right, but I haven't read anything that suggests that.

[Nick Kal]

Where's it say that? I was under the impression the present has just sort of been altered like a very impressive glamour (for lack of a better term). The past has been altered to shpe this, but only in the minds of everyone right? I've not read anything to suggest that the timeline was actually restarted and proceede altered to accomodate changes. That's EXTREMELY powerful.

You may be right, but I haven't read anything that suggests that.

Well, you did read Captain America...

[Ryan K]

Well, you did read Captain America...

No need to be a dick.

[Jake V]

Wrong. Everything changed. The heroes were given what they wanted. If this meant that the past had to be altered to give Cap the present that he wanted, then it happened.
The past wasn't altered. Everyone's memories were. It would take thousands, maybe millions of minor and major alterations to the timestream to end up with House of M. Scarlet Witch's powers don't work that way, they can only reshape reality as it exists in the present. This, combined with the powers of the most powerful telepath on the planet allow her to reshape memories as well.

[Nick Kal]

No need to be a dick.

Name calling. you're a big boy now. :)

The past wasn't altered. Everyone's memories were. It would take thousands,maybe millions of minor and major alterations to the timestream to end up with House of M. Scarlet Witch's powers don't work that way, they can only reshape reality as it exists in the present. This, combined with the powers of the most powerful telepath on the planet allow her to reshape memories as well.

Then why is Cap an old man? If the past wasn't altered.. why isn't he the super soldier we all know. He would have still been frozen in the ice block.

[Ryan K]

Name calling. you're a big boy now. :)

Snide remarks make you so much better than me.

Then why is Cap an old man? If the past wasn't altered.. why isn't he the super soldier we all know. He would have still been frozen in the ice block.

What I'm saying is SW altered him, making him old. He was still in the block of ice and everything. But at the onset of House of M he was altered to the age he would of been had he not and his memories altered. Much simpler than actually rewriting history.

[Anthony]

And it appears that for Steve Rogers, that wish was to not be frozen during WWII and thawed out decades later.
I don't think that would have been his greatest wish actually.

I think it was not being responsible for Bucky's death. Or more specifically, not having Bucky die.

[Jake V]

Then why is Cap an old man? If the past wasn't altered.. why isn't he the super soldier we all know. He would have still been frozen in the ice block.
You really aren't aware of the scope of SW's powers, are you? She can CHANGE REALITY. If she can make a Kree warship appear out of thin air, she can definitely alter Cap's physical structure to make him appear old.

[Nick Kal]

Snide remarks make you so much better than me.

I'm not the one who started it. :rolleyes:


You really aren't aware of the scope of SW's powers, are you? She can CHANGE REALITY. If she can make a Kree warship appear out of thin air, she can definitely alter Cap's physical structure to make him appear old.

Okay, so if she can change reality then she could have changed the past. What if her reality warping was widespread through time? We have nothing to prove or disprove it. Let's wait and see.

[Jake V]

The Pulse #10 disproves the time altering theory.

Hawkeye discovers newspapers reporting his death. The HoM world is simply a massive illusion layed over regular "616" reality, with massive memory alterations to get everyone to believe in it.

[Nick Kal]

The Pulse #10 disproves the time altering theory.

Hawkeye discovers newspapers reporting his death. The HoM world is simply a massive illusion layed over regular "616" reality, with massive memory alterations to get everyone to believe in it.

Ah, okay. Didn't read Pulse #10. I'm still a bit confused. These are just planted memories and stuff like Hitler being caught never happened? I guess so, right?

[Jake V]

Ah, okay. Didn't read Pulse #10. I'm still a bit confused. These are just planted memories and stuff like Hitler being caught never happened? I guess so, right?
Yeah, that's basically the gist of it. SW's alterations aren't 100% complete, so it stands to reason that parts of it can be seen through.

[Nick Kal]

Yeah, that's basically the gist of it. SW's alterations aren't 100% complete, so it stands to reason that parts of it can be seen through.

Like Hawkeye's newspaper, Wolverine & Layla remembering, etc. Ok, thanks. Jeez comics are confusing! :D

[Brady]

An alternate reality occurs when some singular shift in the past creates a divergence in the timestream causing reality to unfold in a different way.

An altered reality, like HoM, is the exact same world as normal, but with many very specific changes to certain physical properties, as well as the population's memories. There is no single shift in the timestream to make reality unfold differently, but individual changes, intelligently designed by a combination of Magneto, Quicksilver, Scarlet Witch and Xavier.

It's a pretty significant difference.

I dunno, it doesn't seem significant at all to me. HoM is our reality with the present changed due to events in the past. Thats an alternate reality in my book. The hows and whys of how it works are just semantics. Maybe HoM should technically be described in a different term - "altered reality", "divergent reality", but that doesn't matter. From a story POV its the same premise as an alternate reality.

[Jake V]

I dunno, it doesn't seem significant at all to me. HoM is our reality with the present changed due to events in the past. Thats an alternate reality in my book. The hows and whys of how it works are just semantics. Maybe HoM should technically be described in a different term - "altered reality", "divergent reality", but that doesn't matter. From a story POV its the same premise as an alternate reality.
Here's an example: If I dress you up in a Pirate outfit, put you on a pirate ship and hypnotize you into believing that you've been sailing the seven seas all your life, we aren't suddenly living in an alternate reality... it's still the same as before, it's just been altered.

[Brady]

But an altered reality is no different to an alternate reality as far as the story goes. Some event or person has taken reality and changed it. As I said, the technical term doesn't really matter. Marvel saying that HoM isn't an alternate reality is splitting hairs, because it doesn't matter how or why the change happened. The fact is that Marvel is trying to present HoM as something new and original and it isn'y. The basic premise of HoM is no different to Age of Apocalypse, Days Future Past or any one of a dozen alternate reality stories.

[Beast]

There is a very significant different between an alternate reality and an altered reality. Anyone who has read classic Excalibur or more recently Exiles would understand that there is a huge difference between the two concepts. HoM is taking place on the earth designated 616, it is not an alternate reality. When things are put back right, not everything is going to be returned to the way it once was. That's the fundamental difference between an alternate reality and an altered reality. An alternate reality just is, an altered reality requires some sort of catalyist to effect a change upon the real version of reality.

[Red State Cap]

The main problem here is that Mr. Bendis is not being remotely consistent in his explanation of the mechanism behind the "altered reality" of HoM.
On the one hand, he goes out of his way to categorically state that reality really is different--for example, Captain America really is an old man rather than just thinking himself to be an old man.
On the other hand, Pulse #10 offers an explicit look at the nature of the new reality, and it is very clear that this "altered reality" is basically just an illusion or hypnotic suggestion, rather than an actual "altered reality."
People should take a look at the differing treatments from book to book and understand that the confusion here is primarily Mr. Bendis' problem with explaining his own rationale.
Now can we get back to discussing CA #10?

RSC

[Jake V]

Cap really isn't an old man. He thinks he's an old man, the rest of the world thinks he's an old man, and he has been changed into appearing to be an old man by Scarlet Witch, but underneath it all, he's still the same Captain America... it's just that no one knows it.

The only person who knows that this reality is all an illusion is Hawkeye and possibly Kat Farrel. Hawkeye wasn't there when the group came upon Captain America, so they don't know it was an illusion.

It's completely consistent if you pay attention to who knows what at what time.

[Red State Cap]

Cap really isn't an old man. He thinks he's an old man, the rest of the world thinks he's an old man, and he has been changed into appearing to be an old man by Scarlet Witch, but underneath it all, he's still the same Captain America... it's just that no one knows it.
The only person who knows that this reality is all an illusion is Hawkeye and possibly Kat Farrel. Hawkeye wasn't there when the group came upon Captain America, so they don't know it was an illusion.
It's completely consistent if you pay attention to who knows what at what time.
Yes, that would have been my take on it as well. However, in this case, Layla Miller should have been able to "cure" him by opening his eyes to the pseudo-reality. So why was it not written thus? The fact that the problem is essentially illusory should have also been obvious to Emma Frost, so why does she prevent Layla from doing her thing? Because apparently Mr. Bendis is treating Cap as if he actually IS old, not just having an illusion of age.
It's a big problem I have with CA in HoM. Why is CA the only hero who does not get a free reset courtesy of Layla Miller? Not one of the others was altered in any meaningful way.
Like I said, the problem is major inconsistency in the explanation of how this "altered reality" works.

RSC

[Jake V]

Yes, that would have been my take on it as well. However, in this case, Layla Miller should have been able to "cure" him by opening his eyes to the pseudo-reality. So why was it not written thus? The fact that the problem is essentially illusory should have also been obvious to Emma Frost, so why does she prevent Layla from doing her thing? Because apparently Mr. Bendis is treating Cap as if he actually IS old, not just having an illusion of age.
It's a big problem I have with CA in HoM. Why is CA the only hero who does not get a free reset courtesy of Layla Miller? Not one of the others was altered in any meaningful way.
Like I said, the problem is major inconsistency in the explanation of how this "altered reality" works.

RSC
She didn't wake him up because they would have no idea that waking him up would give them the old cap back. They didn't bother because they didn't want to drag an old man into battle. Now, if she did, they wouldn't be dragging an old man into battle, but they don't know that. Maybe Emma didn't read his mind, maybe it wouldn't have made a difference if she did. Emma has no idea that the nature of the altered reality is an illusion, so she probably took one look at him and decided to not waste her time.

[hbkabdul]

It's not an alternate universe Cap it's an altered reality Cap. It's the real 616 Captain America, effected by reality manipulation that heavily changed history.

you sound like a caricature

[Jake V]

you sound like a caricature
A caricature of what?

[Beast]

I think he's still been woogied into really being old. The only reason that Hawkeye can see the two layers of reality is to show that there is a way to fix the altered reality. That the true reality still exists, even if everyone is changed by the woogie of reality.

[Beast]

A caricature of what?
Yeah, I don't get what the hell he's talking about either. :confused:

[Red State Cap]

She didn't wake him up because they would have no idea that waking him up would give them the old cap back. They didn't bother because they didn't want to drag an old man into battle. Now, if she did, they wouldn't be dragging an old man into battle, but they don't know that. Maybe Emma didn't read his mind, maybe it wouldn't have made a difference if she did. Emma has no idea that the nature of the altered reality is an illusion, so she probably took one look at him and decided to not waste her time.
Let's say that Emma decides to wake him up regardless of appearances and regardless of whether or not she knows he can be "cured." Two things can happen: a)Cap is "cured" and becomes his normal ever-youthful self. 2)Cap stays old but regains knowledge of how things should be.
In case #1, Cap becomes a valuable asset. In case #2, Cap sits out HoM (albeit, reluctantly) as an old man -- which is exactly what is happening anyway without Emma/Layla waking him up. Therefore the net result of trying to "cure" him can only be positive. If he were awakened, but still old, the heroes would simply refuse to take him along, and he is professional enough to understand that he would be a liability to them. Heck, at the absolute worst he could loan someone his shield.
It also doesn't jibe with the stated mindset in #6, that this is "do or die" all-out battle for the heroes. If they understand that it really is such a dire situation, why in the world wouldn't they take a shot at getting a valuable hero on their side? The worst that could possibly happen is that they get an old Cap and have to tell him he can't come along. Oh the horror!
It's quite clear to me that Mr. Bendis didn't think this out very carefully -- surprise, surprise.

RSC

[XPac]

Hmmm... the only one that benefits from Cap not waking up is Cyclops. With Cap out of the picture, Cyclops gets to call the shots (course, I'm only saying this tongue and cheek).

Old Man or not, if Cap was around he'd be da man as far as leadership goes... which is why I think they should have awaken him regardless. If he stays an old man then no, he shouldn't be in the middle of combat. But he could still be an asset as far as strategy goes. Not to say Cyclops isn't a competent field general, but Cap is the best. If nothing else, Cap can give the big inspirational pep talk to hype up the team before the big game... lord knows they needed it.

[Charles01]

Captain America issue #10, I love that story and it would stand alone well in a Captain America Winter Soldier hardcover as a simple What If... bonus story. House Of M or not whether people like it or not, since Marvel decided to release this in the regular Captain America series unlike Iron Man House Of M, they should collected in a Captain America HC

Two possibilities, the first collect #10 at the end of Winter Soldier hardcover, or in a special hardcover edition of

CAPTAIN AMERICA LIVES AGAIN

also a what if type story

GREAT STORY :)

back to Winter Soldier story next

[Sean Whitmore]

I really wasn't looking forward to "House of M" intruding on the series, but holy damn, that was good.

Things being the way they are (which is my way of saying I don't give a good goddamn if it's an alternate reality or not), I don't see anything in this issue having any repurcussions later on. But it was just such a good example of who Cap is, regardless of the circumstances around him. Like a real good "what if" story.

"What if Cap hadn't been frozen?" He'd have won the war, landed on the moon, and told McCarthy where he can stick it. :D


SEAN

[StoneGold]

It's quite clear to me that Mr. Bendis didn't think this out very carefully -- surprise, surprise.

RSC
Or you could be confusing writers with characters. Remember, the not waking up Cap call was Emma's and Emma's alone. And what is Emma? A nice set of T&A, but a lousy tactician. How many Hellions has she gotten killed now?

[XPac]

Or you could be confusing writers with characters. Remember, the not waking up Cap call was Emma's and Emma's alone. And what is Emma? A nice set of T&A, but a lousy tactician. How many Hellions has she gotten killed now?

But it wasn't necessarily just Emma's call. Logan, Cyclops and everyone else there didn't exactly object to passing on Cap. If anything, it seemed like Cyclops is calling the shots on the team so if there's a tactical error being made it's his job to say something.

Cyclops was the one going off on how he was a team leader since he was a teenager... one would assume he'd be a descent tactician even if Emma isn't. Unless he's just that whipped.

[StoneGold]

But it wasn't necessarily just Emma's call. Logan, Cyclops and everyone else there didn't exactly object to passing on Cap. If anything, it seemed like Cyclops is calling the shots on the team so if there's a tactical error being made it's his job to say something.

Cyclops was the one going off on how he was a team leader since he was a teenager... one would assume he'd be a descent tactician even if Emma isn't. Unless he's just that whipped.
I don't have the issue in front of me, but was Emma talking or psi-talking?

[Sean Whitmore]

It seems to me (and this is pure supposition) that Bendis chose to underestimate Cap so he could show up and save the day later on. If that's the case, then it doesn't matter who's idea it was in-story, it was dictated by the plot.


SEAN

[Red State Cap]

It seems to me (and this is pure supposition) that Bendis chose to underestimate Cap so he could show up and save the day later on. If that's the case, then it doesn't matter who's idea it was in-story, it was dictated by the plot.
SEAN
I will certainly grant that it's possible that Cap shows up and plays a role in the last 2 issues. Even so, that doesn't change the fact that Mr. Bendis having written the heroes (i.e. Frost) not at the very least trying to "cure" him is illogical and unbelievable.
BTW, in a discussion over at CAMB Mr. Brubaker seemed to imply (note that I say "seemed") that Cap is on the sidelines for HoM. Guess we'll see. I dropped HoM at #5, so it's pretty irrelevant to me what happens in the last 2 issues. Frankly, this mini has taught me not to buy any of Marvel's miniseries until they're over or nearly so.

RSC

[Erik Lehnsherr]

Yes, that would have been my take on it as well. However, in this case, Layla Miller should have been able to "cure" him by opening his eyes to the pseudo-reality. So why was it not written thus? The fact that the problem is essentially illusory should have also been obvious to Emma Frost, so why does she prevent Layla from doing her thing? Because apparently Mr. Bendis is treating Cap as if he actually IS old, not just having an illusion of age.
It's a big problem I have with CA in HoM. Why is CA the only hero who does not get a free reset courtesy of Layla Miller? Not one of the others was altered in any meaningful way.
Like I said, the problem is major inconsistency in the explanation of how this "altered reality" works.

RSC


I know it seems off and everything but face it, you REALLY WANT Cap to be there for the finale, right? Just say it. I would LOVE to see how he would deal with Wanda in the end as well since he's the morality factor of the Avengers.

[Red State Cap]

I know it seems off and everything but face it, you REALLY WANT Cap to be there for the finale, right? Just say it. I would LOVE to see how he would deal with Wanda in the end as well since he's the morality factor of the Avengers.
Of course I'd like to see Cap in HoM. That's why I bought the first several issues, unfortunately. I simply find the "Cap is old" stuff to be poor logic and poor writing.
As I've said, I leave open the possibility that Cap will totter in and save the day, but that's not going to convince me to buy any more HoM issues.

RSC

[Dr. Hfuhruhurr]

Here's an example: If I dress you up in a Pirate outfit, put you on a pirate ship and hypnotize you into believing that you've been sailing the seven seas all your life, we aren't suddenly living in an alternate reality... it's still the same as before, it's just been altered.

I wanna be a pirate!

[StoneGold]

I wanna be a pirate!
No you don't. You couldn't handle the scurvy.

[Erik Lehnsherr]

Of course I'd like to see Cap in HoM. That's why I bought the first several issues, unfortunately. I simply find the "Cap is old" stuff to be poor logic and poor writing.
As I've said, I leave open the possibility that Cap will totter in and save the day, but that's not going to convince me to buy any more HoM issues.

RSC

Apparently this storyline wasn't gonna satisfy everyone but I'm enjoying it. Would of loved to hear Cap's input when they finally deal with Wanda but we all can't get what we want all the time, right?

[Kirk G]

I don't think that would have been his greatest wish actually.

I think it was not being responsible for Bucky's death. Or more specifically, not having Bucky die.
I think you have hit the nail on the head, Anthony.
Everything that follows flows from that point.
And so, knowing the pain that awaits cap with that awful memory, Logan wisely says "Let him be"... thinking that the old man is happier this way, than tourchered by our 616 past and the knowledge that he couldn't save Bucky and watched him die. Plus, become a man out of time...

It makes sense to me.
But watch Brubaker... I think he's got an ace up his sleeve yet....
When Steve Rogers gets his hands on the cosmic cube, what will he wish for?
Youth? Bucky alive? Clint restored? History reset?

If you had only one wish, what would YOU wish for in Cap's shoes?

[Kirk G]

I really wasn't looking forward to "House of M" intruding on the series, but holy damn, that was good.

Things being the way they are (which is my way of saying I don't give a good goddamn if it's an alternate reality or not), I don't see anything in this issue having any repurcussions later on. But it was just such a good example of who Cap is, regardless of the circumstances around him. Like a real good "what if" story.

"What if Cap hadn't been frozen?" He'd have won the war, landed on the moon, and told McCarthy where he can stick it. :D


SEAN
Yeah, Sean, I took it exactly the same way. A giant "What If" interlude that will be reset when HoM ends...
But to continue your what if..."He'd have won the war, landed on the moon, and told McCarthy where he can stick it.... he'd have lost Sharon, grown old with the rest of his generation, and become sick of the intollerance that was growing; grow to distrust Magneto and ultimately become bitter and dissolutioned after the 60s and the mutant intollerance take hold.

In some ways, he's better off today, being a living legend and a symbol of inspiration... even if most of today's generations have forgotten what the sacrifices of WWII were about, and what a price was paid for it. (Sorry, I just finished watching the six episode of "Band of Brothers" from HBO on History Channel!) :D

[Red State Cap]

And so, knowing the pain that awaits cap with that awful memory, Logan wisely says "Let him be"... thinking that the old man is happier this way, than tourchered by our 616 past and the knowledge that he couldn't save Bucky and watched him die. Plus, become a man out of time... It makes sense to me. But watch Brubaker... I think he's got an ace up his sleeve yet....
When Steve Rogers gets his hands on the cosmic cube, what will he wish for?
Youth? Bucky alive? Clint restored? History reset? If you had only one wish, what would YOU wish for in Cap's shoes?
Well, the heroes woke Spider-Man up despite knowing what awaited him with Uncle Ben and Gwen. That's at least as significant as Cap's "Bucky angst." How is that consistent?
The answer to "What will Cap do when he gets his hands on the Cube" is: Nothing. He will destroy it if possible. He's been in possession of a Cube several times, not to mention the Infinity Crystal, and he's always overcome the temptation to rewrite reality for his personal benefit. This time will be no different.

RSC

[Mister Mets]

I didn't get a chance to read this until yesterday, and I just want to add my praises for it. It's probably the best House of M tie-in issue I've read, including all of House of M. I has high hopes for this book, and it met them. Regarding the continuity gaffe on the last page, who's to say that it wasn't just another time the heroes decided to watch Cap.

[Neolucifer]

Let's say that Emma decides to wake him up regardless of appearances and regardless of whether or not she knows he can be "cured." Two things can happen: a)Cap is "cured" and becomes his normal ever-youthful self. 2)Cap stays old but regains knowledge of how things should be.
In case #1, Cap becomes a valuable asset. In case #2, Cap sits out HoM (albeit, reluctantly) as an old man -- which is exactly what is happening anyway without Emma/Layla waking him up. Therefore the net result of trying to "cure" him can only be positive. If he were awakened, but still old, the heroes would simply refuse to take him along, and he is professional enough to understand that he would be a liability to them. Heck, at the absolute worst he could loan someone his shield.
It also doesn't jibe with the stated mindset in #6, that this is "do or die" all-out battle for the heroes. If they understand that it really is such a dire situation, why in the world wouldn't they take a shot at getting a valuable hero on their side? The worst that could possibly happen is that they get an old Cap and have to tell him he can't come along. Oh the horror!
It's quite clear to me that Mr. Bendis didn't think this out very carefully -- surprise, surprise.

RSC

I think thats its a plot point , and that there is a bit of the "lets not wake him up because he might still be old and then useless" state of mind from those heroes , but it was mostly inspired by the manipulative Emma , later validated by her puppy , er i mean Scott :D .
Its obvious that Cap wouldnt be as bloodthirsty as the heroes present , and would put a brake to their madness .

You wanna get Magneto and co killed , why the hell would you wake up Mr Virtue , knowing he wouldnt let you do it?

[Dr. Hfuhruhurr]

No you don't. You couldn't handle the scurvy.

You're right. What I really want is the puffy shirt.

[Harold of the Rocks]

Getting 'Off topic', I like the issue, I'm not buying any House of M unless it 'intersects' my current pulls (so just this and New Thunderbolts). It was an interesting take on how Steve saw both sides of the mutant hysteria issue. The timing might have been better if this had interceded between 'Out of Time' and 'Winter Soldier', but that is a pretty minor deal, anyway.

Now getting back 'On topic'...
You're right. What I really want is the puffy shirt.

You just inspired me. I want an excuse to wear the puffy shirt, so I'm gonna be a pirate this Halloween! Time to start takin' my vitamin C pills! ;)

[Red State Cap]

I think thats its a plot point , and that there is a bit of the "lets not wake him up because he might still be old and then useless" state of mind from those heroes , but it was mostly inspired by the manipulative Emma , later validated by her puppy , er i mean Scott :D .
Its obvious that Cap wouldnt be as bloodthirsty as the heroes present , and would put a brake to their madness .
You wanna get Magneto and co killed , why the hell would you wake up Mr Virtue , knowing he wouldnt let you do it?
Precisely. This is how the subplot SHOULD have been handled. It would have been logical and in character for both Cap and Emma. However, this is NOT what the subplot is, as written. The subplot is basically "Cap is old."

RSC

[Will.S]

I enjoyed this HoM issue.

It captures Cap's essense even if he were to age in real time. I wish as an old man he kicked those mutant kid's asses though.

I don't mind that Captain America sits out this one because he can't always be the center of the universe with each crossover so I want to see other characters get more playtime such as Cyclops heading up the coup d'etat. What makes HoM so cool to me is that minor characters get bigger roles and vice versa so there's alot more uncertainty to the whole event.

Now I love Cap and all but I don't feel that he is absolutely neccessary to the story being unraveled here.

[Red State Cap]

I don't mind that Captain America sits out this one because he can't always be the center of the universe with each crossover so I want to see other characters get more playtime such as Cyclops heading up the coup d'etat. What makes HoM so cool to me is that minor characters get bigger roles and vice versa so there's alot more uncertainty to the whole event.
Now I love Cap and all but I don't feel that he is absolutely neccessary to the story being unraveled here.
Yeah, I agree these roles should be reserved for a minor, underexposed character like Wolverine. He's really getting some long-overdue pub in HoM. :rolleyes:

RSC

[Will.S]

Yeah, I agree these roles should be reserved for a minor, underexposed character like Wolverine. He's really getting some long-overdue pub in HoM. :rolleyes:

RSC
I was more referring to characters along the lines of Cyclops, Cloak, and Luke Cage. Besides, I thought the way they approached Wolverine's memory wish was quite clever.

Like I said, as much as I love Cap (not as much as you obviously) I'm glad he sat this one out.

[Psyco panda]

Cloak is only here as a plot device. He exists solely for his teleportational powers to either a) save the day or b) explain how they were able to reassemble everyone so fast. Cyclops is hardly a minor character as well.

[Will.S]

Cloak is only here as a plot device. He exists solely for his teleportational powers to either a) save the day or b) explain how they were able to reassemble everyone so fast.
The fact that he's even being used to that capacity makes me happy. He saved alot of their cans as well as investigating with Emma about Xavier.

Cyclops is hardly a minor character as well.
Not to say that Cyclops is a minor character but Bendis made him step up his game by leading the HoM team instead of being relegated to leading soley the X-Men as far as crossovers go.

[Red State Cap]

I don't see how you can honestly say that it's a good thing that Cap is sitting out because he's "overexposed." There is an overexposed character in HoM, but it isn't Captain America. If you think that it's right to exclude CA on this basis, I'd like to see you apply the same logic to Wolverine first.
Cloak and Cage are minor characters within HoM. There are two main characters, Wolverine and Emma Frost, both X-Men. Cyclops may be "leading" the group, but he is not a main character.
OK, fine, you like Cyclops. No problem with that. But be consistent with your logic.

RSC

[Will.S]

I don't see how you can honestly say that it's a good thing that Cap is sitting out because he's "overexposed." There is an overexposed character in HoM, but it isn't Captain America.
Where did I say Captain America was over exposed? I said no such thing, I'm talking about liking the idea that he's not the only one who could lead a supergroup to victory (which he tends to do alot) and having Cyclops in his place because it gives him a bigger limelight and a chance to flex his leadership and tactical skills with a broader palette of superheroes outside of the X-Men.

This is merely a preference. I'm not forcing you to like that your favorite superhero was shoved aside in favor of other characters but I like it because it makes things more interesting with different characters.

If you think that it's right to exclude CA on this basis, I'd like to see you apply the same logic to Wolverine first.
His wish to remember everything is a clever way of having a character know something is fishy with the reality but he wasn't the only one to come to that conclusion. Cage and a few others had an idea but not until he and Layla showed up did he really cement the notion.

Now usually Wolverine does not receive such a contributory role towards a large scale event which is why I like that they played up his prominence, he is also a favorite character of mine so I admit to having bias in this regard.

Cloak and Cage are minor characters within HoM. There are two main characters, Wolverine and Emma Frost, both X-Men. Cyclops may be "leading" the group, but he is not a main character.
OK, fine, you like Cyclops. No problem with that. But be consistent with your logic.

RSC
I am being consistent with my logic, you're mis-interpreting what I'm saying with regards to the usual "minor characters getting bigger roles" in crossovers of this nature. Now Cyclops is not a minor character by any stretch of the imagination with regards to the X-Universe but in an overall MU standard he tends to get overshadowed by the bigger players and team leaders such as Cap. So here we have Cyclops (instead of being in the sidelines or being led by Cap) in Cap's place doing his own thing. He is not the main character but his role is just as important as Captain America (if it were him) by being the glue that holds them together and providing inspiration. Besides, later on the book becomes more of an Avengers/X-Men ensemble feel so all the characters involved drive the story rather than just one or two.

Also Cloak and Cage's roles aren't as minor as you think, it's Cage's "Sapian" group along with Wolverine, Layla, and Emma, that help turn the tide by selecting who was most suited for each task according to their experience and relationship to the person. Eventually they make up a formidable team that group up to take down Magneto. Cloak provided a means of mass transportation and escape which makes their going about more discrete and simpler. He also does some investigating at the end in a great use of his darkforce powers. Again, a case of a usually minor character getting more attention and prominant role in an event this big.

[Psyco panda]

I think you're wrong about Cage suspecting things aren't right. I don't remeber anything like that in the comics, just him saying Layla walked up and zapped him, then suddenly he remembers things the way they were. If he suspected things were wrong, he wouldn't hve been so suspicious of suddely having new memories, but he was, and sought out wolverine for confirmation.

[Will.S]

I think you're wrong about Cage suspecting things aren't right. I don't remeber anything like that in the comics, just him saying Layla walked up and zapped him, then suddenly he remembers things the way they were.
Well this gave him a reason to doubt the reality didn't it?

If he suspected things were wrong, he wouldn't hve been so suspicious of suddely having new memories, but he was, and sought out wolverine for confirmation.
I'm having trouble understanding what you're trying to say here, it seems like you're basically agreeing with me that he noticed his new memories that Layla showed him had to have some relevance and Logan helped convince him that there was something wrong.

[Hombre]

It captures Cap's essense even if he were to age in real time. I wish as an old man he kicked those mutant kid's asses though.



When I saw the look on Cap's face as the guys were jumping past the turnstiles, I half expected him to pull some kung fu on them. But he didn't.
The look on his face remained, as did the look in his face as he remembered Peggy's words, and his successes and bitter failures. To me, the scene where Steve is shown taking a stand against Magnus at the moment when it was least popular to so, just like he had taken a stand against mutant witch-hunts when doing so was a risk, was the best imaginable way to show his heroism, just as watching him come to terms with the high and lows of his life showed the resilience of his spirit even in the face of defeat and old age.

It's ironic really, he might have sat this one out, but Cap's HoM tie-in is going to be very hard to top as HoM tie-ins go. In fact, I think it will be hard to top as the best comic of 2005.