Claremont's Abandoned Plots

[Congo Jack]

I think Claremont had some ideas about plots for the solo title, featuring the supporting cast, I think, but the editors didn't go for it.
Jubilee and Psylocke running around Madripoor IIRC.

[jarrod]

Jubilee and Psylocke running around Madripoor IIRC.
Also turning it into a Sabretooth title iirc. Reminds me of CC's suggestions for the X-Factor gal (Dazzler, Sara Grey, Tessa) so they wouldn't bring Jean back and shit all over the whole Phoenix thing.

[Meadowsopranospimp]

Wait..the outback era was suppose to last alot longer. Damn editorial.

that was one of the best ERA ever.

Storylines and art were class; from Mutant Massacre to them going through the siege perilous is probably my favourite period. There was just something more edgy and downright sleazy about them.

Takes some strong storytelling to have affection for Dazzler and Longshot, plus Havok has never been more interesting.

[tetragene]

Also turning it into a Sabretooth title iirc. Reminds me of CC's suggestions for the X-Factor gal (Dazzler, Sara Grey, Tessa) so they wouldn't bring Jean back and shit all over the whole Phoenix thing.

where did this "CC suggests mutants as Jean's replacement for X-factor" thing come from? Bob Layton had already decided on Dazzler (his idea) before the suggestion to resurrect Jean was even brought up (this was even referenced in the final issue of Dazzler). Tessa & Sara Grey were (at best) footnote characters at that point so I don't see how they'd possibly work :confused:

[Grendel0606]

where did this "CC suggests mutants as Jean's replacement for X-factor" thing come from? Bob Layton had already decided on Dazzler (his idea) before the suggestion to resurrect Jean was even brought up (this was even referenced in the final issue of Dazzler). Tessa & Sara Grey were (at best) footnote characters at that point so I don't see how they'd possibly work :confused:
CC mentioned in interviews that when he heard they had decided on jean instead of Dazzler he tried to offer them Sara Grey instead.

[summers88]

Storylines and art were class; from Mutant Massacre to them going through the siege perilous is probably my favourite period. There was just something more edgy and downright sleazy about them.

Takes some strong storytelling to have affection for Dazzler and Longshot, plus Havok has never been more interesting.

100% agree! That was my favorite period as well. Actually, I'd say from MM to 280!

[Leirus]

I just read an old interview he did in 1982 and one of his original plots would involve Storm and Scott getting together but he nixed that bc he already did it with Iron Fist and Misty Knight. He also entertained the idea of having Jean's niece and/or nephew in New Mutants. Their powers were to be for one to e a projecting empath and the other to be a recieving empath, working as a team.

Mm, so that explains that sweaty training session they both had back then. I always wondered what was up with that...

[viperstorm]

Storylines and art were class; from Mutant Massacre to them going through the siege perilous is probably my favourite period. There was just something more edgy and downright sleazy about them.

Takes some strong storytelling to have affection for Dazzler and Longshot, plus Havok has never been more interesting.

Yes it was. It was a great Era for characterization. Rouge was dealing with Carol personally taking over. Dazzler with her being an x-men and not a huge singer anymore. Storm with Forge, losing her abilities and getting them back. That Era made me become a fan of Madelyne Pryor. She was so strong back then. The Outback era Genosha storyline is still in my top 5 storyline.

[zaionay]

I thought it was the weird looking faces and the pudgy bodies and just bad layouts that made it look amateur.


tell me about it. half the time his characters looked like their faces were melting off. he's horrible.

[MartinRedmond]

Mm, so that explains that sweaty training session they both had back then. I always wondered what was up with that...

I was almost still in diapers and I knew what was up with that.

[Leirus]

I was almost still in diapers and I knew what was up with that.

Yeh, of course, but the thirty following years of nothing throw me off a bit.

[MartinRedmond]

They had sex in the shower and then Cyclops' dad fell in through the roof.

[jarrod]

where did this "CC suggests mutants as Jean's replacement for X-factor" thing come from? Bob Layton had already decided on Dazzler (his idea) before the suggestion to resurrect Jean was even brought up (this was even referenced in the final issue of Dazzler). Tessa & Sara Grey were (at best) footnote characters at that point so I don't see how they'd possibly work :confused:

Sorry, I knew Ali was an alternate, I just conflated that with CC. Tessa was a suggestion too though, which makes sense given she was the first X-Man.

[jrnewto]

The mystery of who Claremont originally intended ERIC THE RED to be has existed for 35 years now, but I believe evidence to promote MY theory that he was Mystique in disguise was recently provided by Claremont in the flashback scene in Chaos War: X-Men #1 he wrote where Moira MacTaggert reveals that Destiny’s quest to protect humanity led her to cross paths with a man of mystery named ERIC RAVEN.

It’s previously been a mystery why Davan Shakari more often spelled this identity ERIC when the original used by Cyclops was spelled ERIK.

However, if Eric was Mystique’s original Christian name, did Claremont choose the latter spelling to provide readers with an extremely veiled clue? I think so!!!

During Chris’s X-Men: True Friends limited series, set in Edinburgh, Scotland in the year 1936, Mystique is portrayed working alongside Logan and Irene Adler as a MAN called “Mr. Raven” (obviously Eric Raven).

If Mystique was not aware that he was a mutant until AFTER Kurt’s birth, as Claremont below claims*, and was portrayed as a male in 1936, the implication of all this is that Raven was not only born a male but if he DID NOT metamorph into a female until after Kurt’s birth, he was Kurt’s biological father and not his mother.

You’ll further recall Claremont later revealed Rogue’s official name as Anna Raven in X-Treme X-Men, so he must have been using this surname to imply that “Raven” was Mystique’s official surname if (s)he was Anna’s adoptive parent.

Now getting back to Mystique as being the true identity of Eric the Red!

Recall how the panel of Davan Shakari in shadow has a human male profile in UXM 107 and not the plumage shown when he is later unmasked.

This makes me believe Claremont and Cockrum originally planned for Eric the Red to be a human agent of D’Ken, with Claremont perhaps changing his mind after he received the illustrated pages back from Dave, writing the dialogue to reflect this change.

Hence, suggesting Eric the RED was a Shi’ar was his sly attempt at a RED HERRING to put us off the truth (as Mystique of all characters could have easily metamorphed into a Shi’ar).

Given the screen showing a possible Shi’ar watching Steven Lang watching Eric the Red in UXM 97, and Claremont’s own reveal that Mike Rossi was planted to keep an eye on Lang, was Eric the Red further intended as Rossi, who, while working for the government as a middle-man between Lang and the Council of the Chosen, was secretly a human agent of the Shi’ar?!

A further clue Claremont possibly provides to hint readers into this intention is the fact that ROSSI is a renowned surname in Italy which means “RED”.

Given Claremont’s later introduction of Mystique secretly working with the Council of the Chosen to rip SHIELD off by infiltrating a SHIELD Helicarrier as Nick Fury, compare this with the next time we see Rossi after his supposed death “infiltrating a SHIELD Helicarrier” in UXM 182 where he uncovered details of Hellfire Club agents operating inside the spy agency.

Did Claremont intend to reveal that Mike Rossi, and for that matter, Eric the Red, were really Mystique in disguise? I always thought it was rather interesting that Mike Rossi, a government agent, was so interested in protecting mutant rights. But if he was Mystique, then it makes perfect sense.

But if Rossi was really Mystique this wouldn’t be that much of a stretch when you consider she also masqueraded as government agent, Raven Darkholme!

Recall that Carol Danvers had first met Mike Rossi JUST AFTER she joined the Air Force. Now further recall that Mystique was made aware by Destiny that Danvers would be important to their mission, a so-called “lady of the clouds”. Did Mystique therefore adopt the identity of Mike Rossi to get close to Danvers to keep an eye on her, like she later would with Rogue? At this stage assume that Destiny hadn’t quite predicted that Danvers would cost Rogue her soul and possibly her life, due to the Shadow King’s manipulation of her visions in XXM Annual 1.

Now further recall the mission Logan and Mike Rossi were on to free Danvers from a Lubyanka prison where the KGB was holding her. For some odd reason this draws parallels to Logan’s earlier mission in True Friends where he was working with Mr. Raven & Irene Adler. Did Rossi/ Raven seek Logan out for this mission due to (s)he earlier knowledge?

If Rossi was Mystique this would better explain how he survived the plane crash outside Red Hook (I further wonder if Claremont intended a little Lovecraftian connection there;) How interesting that the reading of “his” mind by Emma Frost then leads to the Hellfire Club’s anti-mutant agenda being overthrown, the organisation going on to be lead my mutants.

Even more interesting is how, after his recovery, Rossi goes underground as Raven Darkholme is introduced as Assistant Secretary of Defense for Research and is believed dead for some years.

When Rossi shows up again he is firstly seen investigating Henry Peter Gyrich’s involvement in Project: Wideawake, an equivalent of the project he’d firstly been investigating Steven Lang and the Hellfire Club for, and is next seen infiltrating a SHIELD Helicarrier to uncover information on the Hellfire Club and Sebastian Shaw. Given Shaw is later revealed to be funding Project: Wideawake, this could explain Mystique’s earlier mission for the Hellfire Club on the SHIELD Helicarrier. Had Raven infiltrated the Hellfire Club when first introduced in an effort to uncover SHIELD’s involvement in the manufacture of Sentinels?

Then consider Claremont’s recent revelation that SHIELD has been infiltrated by the Consortium who are revealed to have been the ones behind the Sentinels throughout Marvel’s history.

I don’t know why, but I just love the idea of Mystique masquerading as these other major supporting characters, Eric the Red, Mike Rossi, etc.:evilsmile:

*When discussing the parentage of Nightcrawler, Claremont posts the following on Comixfan’s General Questions for Chris Claremont thread on June 16, 2003:

“Mystique abandoned him because she was totally freaked by this indigo-furred creature with ‘deformed’ appendages and a forked tail! At that point, Mystique had no idea (s)he was a mutant, or a metamorph; (s)he simply reacted as many normal folks would in similar circumstances.” [Post 244]

[therealsuperman]

Hi Everyone:
I remember after Gambit was introduced, there were a few hints and comments about how similar he was to Longshot. I know about the whole Gambit / Sinister / orphanage abandoned plot. How was that supposed to fit in with the Gambit and Longshot similarities? Wasn't Longshot written out because he was supposed to star in his own series too?

[fortyseven]

Hi Everyone:
I remember after Gambit was introduced, there were a few hints and comments about how similar he was to Longshot. I know about the whole Gambit / Sinister / orphanage abandoned plot. How was that supposed to fit in with the Gambit and Longshot similarities? Wasn't Longshot written out because he was supposed to star in his own series too?

I think people have said that Claremont essentially introduced his own versions of current characters that weren't his:
Dazzler = Jubilee
Longshot = Gambit

I could be wrong though.

[MartinRedmond]

As far as I know, Longshot was promised his own regular series writen by Ann Nocenti and drawn by Arthur Adams. Arthur Adams never drew it. It was announced repeatedly in Marvel Age, a preview comic published by Marvel itself and maybe the letters page. When I saw him leave UXM I THOUGHT IT WAS IT!!! :D and it never happened. :mad:I'm not bitter anymore, but it contributed into my disliking his art.

[Foon4000]

As far as I know, Longshot was promised his own regular series writen by Ann Nocenti and drawn by Arthur Adams. Arthur Adams never drew it. It was announced repeatedly in Marvel Age, a preview comic published by Marvel itself and maybe the letters page. When I saw him leave UXM I THOUGHT IT WAS IT!!! :D and it never happened. :mad:I'm not bitter anymore, but it contributed into my disliking his art.

That's what you get for liking Longshot.

[tetragene]

I think people have said that Claremont essentially introduced his own versions of current characters that weren't his:
Dazzler = Jubilee
Longshot = Gambit

I could be wrong though.

Well Claremont's Dazzler was essentially a mall loving, boy crazy doofus -- and he originally was going to kill her off right after Jubilee was introduced & right before she was brought into the main cast. That & he needed another Kitty. Jubilee always came off as a CC Kitty/CC Dazzler amalgam.

Gambit was Longshot with 5 fingers & no retardation (which was a CC Longshot thing anyway). Didnt he originally have luck & attraction as part of his powers?

To me it comes off as CC wanting his version of those characters without backstories/histories he had no involvement in. Jubilee & Gambit could be "his" characters. Bit of an ego thing IMHO

I think it

[MartinRedmond]

Kinda sad for Dazzler he was the only decent boyfriend she ever had.:smile:

[quillero]

Kinda sad for Dazzler he was the only decent boyfriend she ever had.:smile:

How is that rapist "decent"?

[MartinRedmond]

She consented every single time. Her half hearted relationship with him was the best she had probably after Erik Beazly. She chooses them, not me!

[quillero]

She consented every single time. Her half hearted relationship with him was the best she had probably after Erik Beazly. She chooses them, not me!

She didn't on Nation X.

[tetragene]

Kinda sad for Dazzler he was the only decent boyfriend she ever had.:smile:

Angel, Human Torch & the doctor were clearly higher up on the man ladder. Longshot was clearly demented to be acting like a severe M.R. to try to overshadow a rapist's powerset

[salarta]

To me it comes off as CC wanting his version of those characters without backstories/histories he had no involvement in. Jubilee & Gambit could be "his" characters. Bit of an ego thing IMHO

I believe it, given things he's done to other characters he didn't personally create.

I'm starting to see more evidence out there of self-styled creative geniuses in positions of creative power (in various mediums and companies, with one in particular in mind but they have nothing to do with comics) showing blatant disrespect and contempt for the source material of what they're writing scripts for, to where they try to get rid of or ruin great characters specifically because those characters weren't their own creations.

This saddens me. It seems like these types are more obsessed with asserting their egos and playing god when they work on official products than they do about showing genuine appreciation for both the source material and the people that love it. I'm sure they wouldn't enjoy seeing their own creations ruined in a similar manner, so why be so cocky, rude and mean-spirited as to do it to someone else's creations? In fact, I personally consider such antics to be unprofessional.

This is different from a writer simply trying something new and different. New and different can be good depending on how it's executed.

[Foon4000]

To me it comes off as CC wanting his version of those characters without backstories/histories he had no involvement in. Jubilee & Gambit could be "his" characters. Bit of an ego thing IMHO


CC doesn't write no other writer's cast-offs.

[Congo Jack]

The mystery of who Claremont originally intended ERIC THE RED to be has existed for 35 years now... (a whole bunch of text)
This is a bloody brilliant post, great research.

[jstar!!]

I believe it, given things he's done to other characters he didn't personally create.

I don't know if he can really be judged that harshly by this stuff. We don't know what his long term plans were, and he was known for making some long, long term plans. As much as I hate the idea of Dazzler dying and Jubilee replacing her, I've heard that he was considering bringing her back as a being of pure light or something (supported by the symptoms she was experiencing at the time) and if he had really wanted to kill her I doubt he would have let Silvestri talk him out of it. And he got the opportunity again in NEX and passed on it (mostly).

And like with Polaris, I think it was originally his plan to have her be a core X-member before the O5 were brought back into the fold. Granted she would have been buff Po', which I know her fans hate, but again we don't know where that would have led or what would have happened with her character. I don't think he just had a disrespectful disregard for everything that he didn't create. I don't know though.

[jrnewto]

Another abandoned plot that Claremont never got to resolve comes from issue #5 of Excalibur where he and Davis were building up a subplot where Sat-yr-9, Doc Croc, the Vixen, and Jamie Braddock were coming together for a climactic battle. In Marvel Age #100 Alan Davis said that Claremont was planning on doing that in a special series at some point in the future, but soon after Claremont was given the boot. So what would be the outcome of this story and battle, as intended by Claremont?

[MartinRedmond]

Angel, Human Torch & the doctor were clearly higher up on the man ladder. Longshot was clearly demented to be acting like a severe M.R. to try to overshadow a rapist's powerset

Oh, hun, don't be silly. Dazzler loves to be the victim. Her entire dreck of a series is testament to that. She molested a clueless alien with the mentality of a 5 year old because she finaly found someone more feeble minded than her. oh oh oh!

[errant]

I believe it, given things he's done to other characters he didn't personally create.

I'm starting to see more evidence out there of self-styled creative geniuses in positions of creative power (in various mediums and companies, with one in particular in mind but they have nothing to do with comics) showing blatant disrespect and contempt for the source material of what they're writing scripts for, to where they try to get rid of or ruin great characters specifically because those characters weren't their own creations.

This saddens me. It seems like these types are more obsessed with asserting their egos and playing god when they work on official products than they do about showing genuine appreciation for both the source material and the people that love it. I'm sure they wouldn't enjoy seeing their own creations ruined in a similar manner, so why be so cocky, rude and mean-spirited as to do it to someone else's creations? In fact, I personally consider such antics to be unprofessional.

This is different from a writer simply trying something new and different. New and different can be good depending on how it's executed.


I don't think this is the case with him wanting to write out Longshot and Dazzler. IIRC, he was asked by Nocenti to put Longshot in the book to both keep him safe and to build some exposure for him before she could get back to him after some more interest was generated for a second solo book. Also, I think Shooter asked him to put Dazzler in the book after they went with Jean for X-Factor instead of her and her solo book had already been cancelled. He did both, and didn't mind, I think, because he was looking to swell the ranks of the team back up after writing out Kurt, Kitty and Rachel (and potentially Piotr) in the Mutant Massacre and prior. I think after a couple of years though, he just wasn't feeling them as characters and they didn't really fit in with the rather serious and deadly themes and plots he was weaving in and out of.

I don't think he disliked them or having to write them, but he was probably feeling some stagnation with the directions he had taken them himself and introduced Jubilee and Gambit as equivalents with clean slates he could start fresh with that were more in line with the direction the book was going and what he wanted to explore with the other characters (i.e., Wolverine and Storm)

[Emerald_616]

I agree with that, and the person who suggested Polaris joining after the Muir Island Saga.

That would've made the line-up

Storm
Gambit
Wolverine
Jubilee
Psylocke
Polaris
Rogue
Banshee or Forge

I don't know who else would've rounded the team out.

Prof. X would've probably stayed in space. Cable probably wouldn't exist. Longshot, Dazzler, and Havok were written out. Kitty, Rachel and Kurt were still on Excalibur. Simonson would've kept X-Factor going if she hadn't left the books, same with the NM.

[McFarlane's Green Hulk]

Not sure if this thread fits the bill for my question or not, but was "X-Men: True Friends" an abandoned CC plot come to print when he came back to Marvel in 1999/2000? I enjoyed the hell outta that mini, and I don't remember when it was or if it was supposed to take place somewhere during CC's original UXM run...

http://images3.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20090128044613/marveldatabase/images/thumb/4/49/X-Men_True_Friends_Vol_1_1.jpg/317px-X-Men_True_Friends_Vol_1_1.jpg

[Grendel0606]

Not sure if this thread fits the bill for my question or not, but was "X-Men: True Friends" an abandoned CC plot come to print when he came back to Marvel in 1999/2000? I enjoyed the hell outta that mini, and I don't remember when it was or if it was supposed to take place somewhere during CC's original UXM run...

http://images3.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20090128044613/marveldatabase/images/thumb/4/49/X-Men_True_Friends_Vol_1_1.jpg/317px-X-Men_True_Friends_Vol_1_1.jpg
It takes place during his early Excalibur run and was suppsoed to come out as the time as one (or 2 ) special edition, but was shleved for some reason.

[McFarlane's Green Hulk]

It takes place during his early Excalibur run and was supposed to come out as the time as one (or 2 ) special edition, but was shelved for some reason.

Ah, that makes more sense...with the claws on Logan in that time period and all. Wish this was in a TPB...

[Emerald_616]

It may see the light of day in TPB with the sudden surge in 90s collections that keep showing up.

[Rasputin9977]

You can pick the original issues up at a far cheaper price than a trade.

[jrnewto]

I have a quite prosaic take on the Reavers’ computer system and the mystery surrounding it. To me, the mystery was satisfactorily explained, even if the plot never came to fruition.

In the early Outback era, the X-Men are saying that they wonder where the Reavers and their hardware came from. Later, Pierce refers to them as “his original Reavers” (whereas Cole, Macon and Reese are his latter-day Reavers). So, Pierce built them, and their computers.

Why did the computers seem to be alive in the latter part of the Outbreak era? Because Nastirh and Madelyne put a spell on them. Havok says in issue 240 that “Madelyne must have made some modifications without me” because the computers can now locate the Marauders, whereas before they couldn’t. From what I can see, this was part of Madelyne’s deal with the devil. She told Nastirh at the end of 239, “I want the Marauders found, so they can pay for what they’ve done.” Then in 240, the X-Men use the computers and locate the Marauders. So, the demons did it.

The computers were not alive from the start. Remember, in issue 252 or 253, one of the Reavers (Bonebreaker, its previous driver) is using the computers and says that they have changed since the last time he used them. Some of the components seem alive, and it is freaking Bonebreaker out. So they couldn’t have been that way from the start.

Thus, Pierce built the computers; S’ym and N’astirh altered them into something beyond machinery using the Transmode Virus they’d been infected by in the lead up to Inferno through their attempts to corrupt Madelyne.

[jrnewto]

With regard to the 1890 signpost shown in Uncanny X-Men #231, I’d always considered this indicated the date white settlers had butchered Gateway’s people, as there are countless incidents of this occurring in Australia, as there were in Native America.

I’d suggest these settlers further desecrated their spirits by constructing their town over it, which would possibly explain Bonebreaker’s comments about Gateway’s people becoming slaves to “outsign spirits”.

That is, his people are unable to rest due to the desecration of their sacred ground.

[jrnewto]

In Marvel Team-Up #64, Yu-Ti named the Dragon-Kings as Yama-Kings.

The term Yama-Kings was previously used by Yu-Ti (Lord Tuan) in Deadly Hands of Kung Fu #21, and it refers to the Lords of the Dead dwelling in Feng Tu.

So were the Dragon Kings also intended as the Lords of the Dead?

[jrnewto]

According to Farouk in Uncanny X-Men #265, Storm was promised to him long ago, but since Claremont wrote this in 1990 we've had no concrete evidence with regard to who this might have been.

I'd always wondered "had one of her Rain Queen ancestors promised N’Dare’s child to him?"

Think I've now figured it out!

It very possibly was Storm’s uncle, Shetani (who was established in the UXM Annual in 2006).

It was revealed that the males within the family bloodline did not receive any of the power passed down so he sought a different sort of power to destroy theirs and had been hunting for Ororo for years.

It is very possible that he made a deal with Farouk in exchange for power of some sort in the past… which would give N’Dare, her mother, more reason to flee with her child.

[jrnewto]

When Sauron hypnotises the X-Men in Marvel Fanfare #3, Nightcrawler sees himself as a demon, Colossus some type of insect, but most interesting is that Storm sees herself as a cat-like creature. Given her feline eyes, how do you think Claremont was going to tie this into her ancestry? He obviously intended this to go somewhere since he had her able to see exceptionally well in the dark, and cat’s see exceptionally well the dark too, correct?

Where was this leading? A rain goddess who also possessed cat-like abilities?

[fortyseven]

When Sauron hypnotises the X-Men in Marvel Fanfare #3, Nightcrawler sees himself as a demon, Colossus some type of insect, but most interesting is that Storm sees herself as a cat-like creature. Given her feline eyes, how do you think Claremont was going to tie this into her ancestry? He obviously intended this to go somewhere since he had her able to see exceptionally well in the dark, and cat’s see exceptionally well the dark too, correct?

Where was this leading? A rain goddess who also possessed cat-like abilities?

Storm's (or at least her original costume belonged to) was originally going to be a able to turn into a cat before they gave her weather powers.

http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y98/travo_89/catstorm.jpg

[Lorendiac]

When Sauron hypnotises the X-Men in Marvel Fanfare #3, Nightcrawler sees himself as a demon, Colossus some type of insect, but most interesting is that Storm sees herself as a cat-like creature. Given her feline eyes, how do you think Claremont was going to tie this into her ancestry? He obviously intended this to go somewhere since he had her able to see exceptionally well in the dark, and cat’s see exceptionally well the dark too, correct?

Where was this leading? A rain goddess who also possessed cat-like abilities?


Storm's (or at least her original costume belonged to) was originally going to be a able to turn into a cat before they gave her weather powers.

http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y98/travo_89/catstorm.jpg


Just to be sure we're clear . . .

I take it that you think the bit about "Storm sometimes sees herself as being a cat-like creature" was strictly an in-joke on Claremont's part? A subtle nod to the past (i.e. Cockrum's original idea for a black woman, wearing that costume, who might hang out with DC's Legion of Super-Heroes), rather than it being intended as a cute little piece of foreshadowing for anything Claremont was thinking of doing with Ororo in the future?

[Gorviss]

Storm's (or at least her original costume belonged to) was originally going to be a able to turn into a cat before they gave her weather powers.

http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y98/travo_89/catstorm.jpg


Wow...this is an interesting thread! I thought I knew just about all of Claremonts dropped plots but clearly I was wrong. Interesting read about Strom...and I'm very glad they decided not to go this route. Ororo being able to change into a domestic house cat doesn't seem like such a great idea.

[jrnewto]

Storm's (or at least her original costume belonged to) was originally going to be a able to turn into a cat before they gave her weather powers.

http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y98/travo_89/catstorm.jpg
However, Claremont continued to refer to this after she was established as an “weather witch”, not only giving Ororo exceptional night vision, not just shown when her body was switched with Emma Frost's, but when she and the X-Men went to Japan for the first time to help Sunfire against Moses Magnum, Storm could see through the thick, dark and heavy smoke of a massive blazing inferno.

In addition, she also stated that her hearing was nearly on par with Wolverine's, being able to deduced Cyclop's voice when he was attacked by Jean at the Hellfire Club.

I think Claremont definitely wanted to keep with Storm having some exceptional physical abilities that were catlike in nature.

He further followed this up in the X-Treme X-Men story arc where Brainchild devolved Storm back 1,000 in her genetic make-up. She was a primal slayer with very feline-esque features (from her eyes to claws to fangs).

Storm's family bloodline and genetic make-up give her some impressive developmental potential.

Given the additional cat conception for Ororo, I wonder if the Goddess/ Merciful Bright Lady Claremont intended to link her to was Tefnut, the rain goddess with the head of a cat?

[McFarlane's Green Hulk]

Bump from Hell by finding an answer to my question from 6 months ago about the X-Men: True Friends mini;

http://secretsbehindthexmen.blogspot.com/

I read it somewhere the other day, can't find it now. But it explains why Logan had claws in the historic part of the story, considering that the concept for the story was pre-Weapon X by BWS and pre-Hama memory implants.

[Fifolet]

Here's one that's indirectly related to the X-Men. During his run on Fantastic Four, he had planned a subplot where Reed and Sue hired Kitty as a live-in nanny for Franklin. Ironically, this got nixed because the editors decided to have Kitty rejoin the X-Men instead!

I wouldn't mind seeing something along those lines. As much as I'm enjoying WATXM, I feel Kitty as a character has devolved after Excalibur and Astonishing. It could be nice mixing her up with an unrelated x book for a time. FF could work well as she is tech savy, it could play with the Days of Future Past relationship between Rachel and Franklin (despite their current age difference), and most of all, I'd love to see what Hickman would do with her in a FF story environment.

[MartinRedmond]

Bump from Hell by finding an answer to my question from 6 months ago about the X-Men: True Friends mini;

http://secretsbehindthexmen.blogspot.com/

I read it somewhere the other day, can't find it now. But it explains why Logan had claws in the historic part of the story, considering that the concept for the story was pre-Weapon X by BWS and pre-Hama memory implants.


“I wasn’t coming up with the stories,” Byrne stated in Arena Magazine #11. “I was just the hired typist, basically, to come up with the words.”
So he didn't write anything at all of that! What a relief! :smile:

[Thrive2Mix]

im currently rereading uncanny and found it weird that Storm has been drawn with the cat like features...
this is very interesting..

[jrnewto]

The explanation for Storm's magic ancestry has been RIGHT THERE… and yet none of us saw it, but how in the hell could we have MISSED it?

1. Faltine are entities composed of pure magic energy.

2. Certain ones of them were able to take on human forms, Dormammu and Umar for example.

3. When a Faltine and a mortal procreate, the product of this union results in the child having WHITE HAIR and BLUE EYES, with exceptional magic potential (Clea being the most recent example).

Now we all know Storm's ancestry is priestesses and sorceresses, and they were exceptional magic users, and all those with such power had the tapetumus eyes and white hair.

So has the secret to Storm’s magic ancestry, including her tapetumus eyes and white hair, all along been pointing to their being an inherited trait from a Faltine ancestor?

[chakal]

Nice thread. Remember lurking in it more than 5 years ago before I joined. I was then looking for more info about Claremont.

One of the abandoned plots that was the most interesting one (and most mysterious) was "Mutant Wars".
It was in 1990? or 1989? When X-Men were missing, and Banshee wanted to find them and regroup them into a team again.
There's not much info about it. And it might not be Claremont's idea at all.

[sweetdumbass]

It was in 1990? or 1989? When X-Men were missing, and Banshee wanted to find them and regroup them into a team again.
There's not much info about it. And it might not be Claremont's idea at all.

I loved that period. ForgexBanshee>>>>>ForgexNemesis. They should have become the next Prof X.

[MartinRedmond]

We got X-Tinction Agenda instead of Mutant Wars?

[chakal]

We got X-Tinction Agenda instead of Mutant Wars?

I had to search for it...

The original idea and plot were more "global", but in the end, the result seems to be the same as originally planned - united x-men. The original idea was something along X-Men vs X-Men.
According to what I had checked right now Mutant wars were supposed to happen in: UXM #267-269, NM #95-97, Excalibur #28-30, X-Factor #60-62.

X-Tinction Agenda happened in UXM #270-272 (damn close), NM #95-97, X-Factor #60-62. Excalibur were doin' their own thing.

So, yes, and thanks.

[Spidey Sense]

Yeah, this thread pretty much is chocolate gold coins.

[JoeDowntown]

Claremont mentioned to me when he was signing my books at ECCC. He has a second minei series he wanted to write involving Kitty Pride and Wolverine that would have "drastically" changed there relationship longtime. For whatever thats worth sure this is nothing new to people in the know. Im no insider or anything just a guy rambling to a guy whos book he was signing.

[david r]

Claremont mentioned to me when he was signing my books at ECCC. He has a second minei series he wanted to write involving Kitty Pride and Wolverine that would have "drastically" changed there relationship longtime. For whatever thats worth sure this is nothing new to people in the know. Im no insider or anything just a guy rambling to a guy whos book he was signing.

Thank you for that information. I hadn't heard that. I think Chris Claremont wanted to suggest the idea that Logan knew about Kitty Pryde and, what Claremont referred to as his "final fate for Kitty Pryde". Logan knew what it was, and how IMPORTANT for mutantkind that Kitty not die somehow. Remember that issue where Jubilee sees a photograph of Logan from some "Blade Runner"-type city? Around UXM #257. Logan had been in the future, and knew Kitty's "final fate", as the first mutant President of the United States.

That second mini may have shown more hints of all of this.

[david r]

The Mutant Wars:

This event was planned for fall 1990, by Louise Simonson and Chris Claremont. They had been laying the seeds for it in their books going back over a year. See "New Mutants #75" especially for the Magneto/Sebastian Shaw battle. Read what they say to one another, about mutant factions growing. Claremont seemed to be losing his way on Uncanny X-Men, but when I look back now, you can see him creating groups of mutants, all in preparation for this so-called "Mutant War".

The four mutant annuals in 1990 - Days of Future Present - was a precursor to this larger story. Meant to bring new readers up to speed on the days of future past storyline (which was 10 years old, BTW!!!) in preparation for that fall's major epic crossover. So what happened? Why did it never appear??

[david r]

Marvel Age Preview had this to say about the Mutant Wars:

"X-Factor will play a pivotal role in this fall's "Mutant Wars", as the first salvo is fired leading to "Days of Future Past". Mutant against mutant, faction against faction, each trying to be the strongest - the survivors. As seen in ' Days of Future Past', (Uncanny X-Men #141-142 in 1981). The future is bleak. The lines have already been drawn, and the mutants in the Marvel Universe have formed their allegiances. The Hellfire Club, Apocalypse's forces, Sebastian Shaw's renegade faction of the Hellfire Club, the re-formed X-Men, X-Factor, the Marauders, the New Mutants (led by their mysterious new leader, Cable), Legion (controlled by Farouk (Shadow King), in turn controlling Moira MacTaggert."

[jrnewto]

Claremont seems to have set up a story he never got to tell about Xavier and the Greek isle of Kirinos, which becomes the unofficial X-Men vacation spot beginning in Uncanny X-Men #113, when Xavier vacations there with Lilandra. Then in #117, he recalls going there after his breakup with Moira and that the people there needed his help and in return "they gave me the care and love I needed."

It's to Kirinos that Jean goes on vacation between #117 and arriving in Scotland in #119 (and in Greece she meets Mastermind, as we learn from Classic X-Men #24). Years later, the New Mutants are on holiday at Kirinos (cf. New Mutants Special Edition #1) before getting shanghaied for the Asgardians Wars (while Karma is still fat from the Shadow King's possession). And a few years later still, circa Uncanny #260, Forge and Banshee stop in Kirinos on their way to Cairo before they're nearly assassinated and decide to head for the U.S. instead.

There may be a few other stories. What's interesting is that most of the ones above involve the Shadow King. What did Xavier do on Kirinos before he encountered Farouk in Egypt – what help did he give the people and what "love" did helped him get over Moira? And is there a reason the island kept attracting X-Men whenever the Shadow King cropped up again? (And was the site of Mastermind's first seduction of Jean.)

A further connection comes in X-Women where Claremont reveals part of Rogue’s inheritance (cf. X-Treme X-Men #4) had included a villa in Kirinos. Is this more Shadow King Manipulation?

[david r]

The Shadow War: Chris Claremont's Shadow King story, the one that began with Legion on Muir Island and was leading to Uncanny X-Men #300, was to be called the Shadow War.

[KaleRylan]

A lot of these stories sound interesting, but also a lot of them tie back into one of the things that IMO became a bigger and bigger problem with Claremont as time went on. And that is that he seemed to have a core group of characters that he liked and some things that he felt needed to happen. And because he was the sole X-writer for so long he slowly shoved pieces into what he wanted whether it worked long-term or not.

For instance Cyclops is one of my favorite X-men, but Claremont seems to have either straight up hated him, or at least been completely indifferent to him. Many of his arcs either straight up crap on him, or else ignore him. And he does this with a couple of characters.

For example, I never want British Betsy back, EVER. Ninja Betsy is so much cooler it doesn't even compare. And he's got a bunch like that.

Some I like though. So I guess whatever, it happens.

[jrnewto]

The Shadow War: Chris Claremont's Shadow King story, the one that began with Legion on Muir Island and was leading to Uncanny X-Men #300, was to be called the Shadow War.
Interestingly the trilogy of books he later wrote for George Lucas were dubbed The Chronicles of the Shadow War.

Shadow War, Mutant Wars. What was this sudden obsession with "wars" he was going through? Was it to draw an analogy re: his then battles with Bob Harras, or to ramp things up for Days of Future Past?

[Fifolet]

I never want British Betsy back, EVER. Ninja Betsy is so much cooler it doesn't even compare. And he's got a bunch like that.

I agree that ninja betsy looks cooler, but she also became a bit more one dimensional character. I mean this regarding her mutant powers. british betsy was not a fighter, so she would have to find ways to use her telepathy for combat. When she turned ninja, her powers were pretty much reduced to her martial arts abilities, with only the psionic blade as a sign she was a mutant, and that, for all intents and purposes, was basically a sword/knife. That has been her role for most of the time since the transformation, with only occasional glimpses of the latent unused power within the character.

[tahmidk]

The gambit thing makes since, explains wy he turned out so shit

[wvchemteach]

A lot of these stories sound interesting, but also a lot of them tie back into one of the things that IMO became a bigger and bigger problem with Claremont as time went on. And that is that he seemed to have a core group of characters that he liked and some things that he felt needed to happen. And because he was the sole X-writer for so long he slowly shoved pieces into what he wanted whether it worked long-term or not.

For instance Cyclops is one of my favorite X-men, but Claremont seems to have either straight up hated him, or at least been completely indifferent to him. Many of his arcs either straight up crap on him, or else ignore him. And he does this with a couple of characters.

For example, I never want British Betsy back, EVER. Ninja Betsy is so much cooler it doesn't even compare. And he's got a bunch like that.

Some I like though. So I guess whatever, it happens.

Agreed and other characters that were fan favorites were never in the books hardly at all during his run.

[Memphis Raines]

Agreed and other characters that were fan favorites were never in the books hardly at all during his run.

As long as Claremont wrote Uncanny, if a character he rarely if ever used was not in the book, then how were they fan favorites? Which characters are you referring to?

[Memphis Raines]

I agree that ninja betsy looks cooler, but she also became a bit more one dimensional character. I mean this regarding her mutant powers. british betsy was not a fighter, so she would have to find ways to use her telepathy for combat. When she turned ninja, her powers were pretty much reduced to her martial arts abilities, with only the psionic blade as a sign she was a mutant, and that, for all intents and purposes, was basically a sword/knife. That has been her role for most of the time since the transformation, with only occasional glimpses of the latent unused power within the character.

I agree. I actually cared about British Betsy for the reasons you listed above. But aside from how and scantily clad and hot to look at Asian Betsy was for years, I didn't really give a damn about her and found her EXTREMELY boring.

[Emerald_616]

I wish he'd been allowed to finish. #300 was only 20 issues away when Claremont and Simonson left, so shame on Bob Harras for doing his job poorly and letting the writers that defined the X-Men slip through his fingers just before topping off an amazing run.

[Memphis Raines]

A lot of these stories sound interesting, but also a lot of them tie back into one of the things that IMO became a bigger and bigger problem with Claremont as time went on. And that is that he seemed to have a core group of characters that he liked and some things that he felt needed to happen. And because he was the sole X-writer for so long he slowly shoved pieces into what he wanted whether it worked long-term or not.

For instance Cyclops is one of my favorite X-men, but Claremont seems to have either straight up hated him, or at least been completely indifferent to him. Many of his arcs either straight up crap on him, or else ignore him. And he does this with a couple of characters.


I know what you mean. At least he actually used Cyclops, even if he didn't really develop him much beyond just being the stereotypical stoic, boyscouttish, fearless leader type, same as he had been since he debuted in the 1960s.

I'll never forget how Claremont almost COMPLETELY ignored and didn't seem to care about Iceman, though. He was noticeably absent during the Dark Phoenix Saga when all the other original X-Men were there, and he even had Beast guest star pretty regularly for a while during the All-New era; he also had boring ass Angel rejoin the team for many issues, too. He even Havok and Polaris very heavily for years, but almost no Bobby/Iceman throughout his entire run. You could tell he didn't really care for him as a character because he had 17 years to use him, but didn't aside from a short 3 issue arc in issues 145-147 where he pops up to help fight Arcade and a Doombot and X-Men 1-3 about 15 years later where Blue and Gold teams were showed training and fighting against Magneto and the Acolytes.

It's ironic that almost immediately after Claremont left and after almost 20 years of ignoring him, following writers went to work trying to make Iceman a more three dimensional character and even tried to develop his powers beyond just making icesleds and throwing snow balls, and he sort of ended up being kind of a fan favorite.

[MartinRedmond]

Iceman was being developed in New Defenders.

[errant]

Agreed and other characters that were fan favorites were never in the books hardly at all during his run.

Back then, we didn't have fan-favorites. We had good stories. And all of the characters were our favorites. We didn't need to concern ourselves with the kind bullshit we do today, just to keep ourselves interested.

[Memphis Raines]

Iceman was being developed in New Defenders.

So was Angel, as Beast was in Avengers, but that didn't stop Claremont from using them whenever he wanted and further developing them. He just didn't want anything to do with Iceman, and it showed.

[MartinRedmond]

Angel and Beast were only there because of John Byrne afaik. He wanted to bring the original back, except Jean Grey, apparently.

[Memphis Raines]

Angel and Beast were only there because of John Byrne afaik. He wanted to bring the original back, except Jean Grey, apparently.

What about Havok and Polaris? They're semi-original X-Men who Claremont continued to use and develop long after Byrne was gone. It was obvious that they were two characters who Claremont highly favored. Especially Havok. He even had Havok re-join the team after the Mutant Massacre and gave him such a grand re-introduction that he treated him like he was starting from scratch and had never been an X-Man before; he even got the whole, "Welcome to the X-Men! Hope you survive the experience..." cover treatment.

[david r]

I'll never forget how Claremont almost COMPLETELY ignored and didn't seem to care about Iceman, though. He was noticeably absent during the Dark Phoenix Saga when all the other original X-Men were there, and he even had Beast guest star pretty regularly for a while during the All-New era; he also had boring ass Angel rejoin the team for many issues, too. He even Havok and Polaris very heavily for years, but almost no Bobby/Iceman throughout his entire run. You could tell he didn't really care for him as a character because he had 17 years to use him, but didn't aside from a short 3 issue arc in issues 145-147 where he pops up to help fight Arcade and a Doombot and X-Men 1-3 about 15 years later where Blue and Gold teams were showed training and fighting against Magneto and the Acolytes.

It's ironic that almost immediately after Claremont left and after almost 20 years of ignoring him, following writers went to work trying to make Iceman a more three dimensional character and even tried to develop his powers beyond just making icesleds and throwing snow balls, and he sort of ended up being kind of a fan favorite.

Iceman didn't appear in the Dark Phoenix Saga because artist John Byrne couldn't draw him at the time, so that was the main reason he never appeared. Beast appeared so much during the late 1970s because of Byrne also. Angel re-joined the team during this period because John Byrne felt an original X-Member should always be there, and when Jean Grey died and Cyclops left, Warren was brought in.

[david r]

But you're right, Chris Claremont didn't much care for Bobby, Warren or Hank. His mission statement coming on the book was the Original X-Men were considered a failed book, and the focus was meant to be on the all-new, all-different X-Men. Which meant more Kurt, Peter, Ororo and Logan, and NO Bobby or Warren. People forget how unpopular the Originals were in the 1970s.

[david r]

Claremont seems to have set up a story he never got to tell about Xavier and the Greek isle of Kirinos, which becomes the unofficial X-Men vacation spot beginning in Uncanny X-Men #113, when Xavier vacations there with Lilandra. Then in #117, he recalls going there after his breakup with Moira and that the people there needed his help and in return "they gave me the care and love I needed."

It's to Kirinos that Jean goes on vacation between #117 and arriving in Scotland in #119 (and in Greece she meets Mastermind, as we learn from Classic X-Men #24). Years later, the New Mutants are on holiday at Kirinos (cf. New Mutants Special Edition #1) before getting shanghaied for the Asgardians Wars (while Karma is still fat from the Shadow King's possession). And a few years later still, circa Uncanny #260, Forge and Banshee stop in Kirinos on their way to Cairo before they're nearly assassinated and decide to head for the U.S. instead.

There may be a few other stories. What's interesting is that most of the ones above involve the Shadow King. What did Xavier do on Kirinos before he encountered Farouk in Egypt – what help did he give the people and what "love" did helped him get over Moira? And is there a reason the island kept attracting X-Men whenever the Shadow King cropped up again? (And was the site of Mastermind's first seduction of Jean.)

A further connection comes in X-Women where Claremont reveals part of Rogue’s inheritance (cf. X-Treme X-Men #4) had included a villa in Kirinos. Is this more Shadow King Manipulation?

Ooooh, I never noticed that. Thank you, Jrnewto. But I wonder if that Greek island Kirinos was for a larger story, or just another location Claremont created that he used on occasion. Like Genosha, Muir Island, Madripoor, Limbo, etc.

[DATNIGG]

Here a few more...

3)The Neo. Claremont had far more ambitious plans for the Neo than what we saw. The X-Men were supposed to drive them from their church hideout and into their lair--in the Savage Land. Meanwhile, mysterious earthquakes are rocking Genosha, driving Magneto insane wondering what is happening.




I loved the neo altho I do remember magneto making Domina & her warclan his bitch

[Memphis Raines]

Iceman didn't appear in the Dark Phoenix Saga because artist John Byrne couldn't draw him at the time.

Really?!? Iceman---especially the way he looked back then---has to be one of the easiest superheroes ever to draw. Just draw a bald muscle man with underwear and an "X" belt buckle. I think that was probably an excuse and that he didn't like Iceman either...lol.

[MartinRedmond]

A bald twink, sliding down a pole.

[MartinRedmond]

What about Havok and Polaris? They're semi-original X-Men who Claremont continued to use and develop long after Byrne was gone. It was obvious that they were two characters who Claremont highly favored. Especially Havok. He even had Havok re-join the team after the Mutant Massacre and gave him such a grand re-introduction that he treated him like he was starting from scratch and had never been an X-Man before; he even got the whole, "Welcome to the X-Men! Hope you survive the experience..." cover treatment.
I don't think so. lol he didn't seem to like either very much... unless mistreatment counts as "love".

[Emerald_616]

Claremont makes the characters he likes SUFFER. As someone said in another thread Clarmazons were made to be PUNISHED, so he definitely liked Alex and Lorna because of all the wicked punishments they received under him. Scott was boring and had little happen to him besides Jean dying and meeting Maddie because Claremont didn't like him. It's the same reason nothing really happened to Longshot other than a gurlfight over him in the OZOB.

[david r]

I'm reading Claremont's Satana stories, and I have a hard time believing how involved in the occult Chris Claremont was in the 1970s. Who knew? Likely many X-fans are unaware but Claremont and his first wife, Bonnie, were deeply involved in occult practices and witchcraft in the Manhattan of the '70s. I am not lying and STILL have a hard time believing that Claremont, such a great writer of 70s/80s superhero adventures, was so heavily involved in these things. it's like learning Walt Disney was a Satanist!

[Mmm]

-Gambit Week- happened at this exact point.

Edit: Dr strange, just to say it.

[MartinRedmond]

I'm reading Claremont's Satana stories, and I have a hard time believing how involved in the occult Chris Claremont was in the 1970s. Who knew? Likely many X-fans are unaware but Claremont and his first wife, Bonnie, were deeply involved in occult practices and witchcraft in the Manhattan of the '70s. I am not lying and STILL have a hard time believing that Claremont, such a great writer of 70s/80s superhero adventures, was so heavily involved in these things. it's like learning Walt Disney was a Satanist!
Are you sarcastic?