Should there be a 616 Ultimates?

[Mister Mets]

If Marvel were to do a team book following a government sponsored superteam in the regular Marvel universe ( a 616 version of the Ultimates) what would you like to see in this book? What heroes would you like to see on this book? What creators?
Or would it be a monstrously bad idea?


Personally I'd call it The Marvels (and advertise it's link to the Ultimates.) Possible members could include the Black Widow, the Superadaptoid (reprogrammed into thinking that he's the original Human Torch, Virtue (from Hudlin's run of Marvel Knights Spider-Man), The Original Human Torch (posing as someone else), Falcon, Hawkeye, Henry Pym, The Wasp, Doctor Strange, The Silver Surfer, The Prowler, and a few underused X-Men characters (if such creatures exist.)

The book would have a huge impact upon the Marvel Universe, as this team has the resources of SHIELD behind it, and events in the Marvel Universe would have a severe impact on the book as well.

Possible Writers....Ed Brubaker, Priest, Warren Ellis, Joe Casey, J. Michael Straczynci, Me :evilsmile
Possible Artists.....Brian Hitch, Jon Romita Jr, Salvador Larroca, Alex Maleev

[Alan2099]

They've tried this. Freedome Force, The New Invaders, and X-factor are attempts at government super teams. It doesn't tend to work that well. The big problem lies when the ideals of super heroics start to clash with plotics.

Now on the other hand, if Nick Fury were to happen to decided that he needs an Unoffcial Team that doesn't techincally exist, that could work.

[XPac]

Yeah, the idea has been done before. And I'm sure it'll be done again. SHIELD these days in involving itself so heavily in the affairs of the meta-humans that I can't imagine them NOT having some meta-humans on the payroll. They had Jessica Drew for example. Quasar used to be a SHIELD agent.

It would probably need people that were more willing to get their hands dirty. A Black Ops type of thing. Maybe Black Widow or Electra or even Mystique. War Machine maybe. US Agent is always a good soldier when he needs to be.

[hbkabdul]

My feeling is that what made Ultimates a successful idea wouldnt work that well in regular 616 universe. Ultimates as a lot of freedom and the stories have been a lot tighter by having all the major players in one book by one writer with little contuinity to follow. It also doesn't have the baggage of thousands of characters running around. Despite it's political overtones I think the a story would still work in the regular MU as long as a capable writer were able to keep it balanced out with plots and characterizations. A small key to Ultimates has been its presentation of politics in a superhuman world.

Oh and Cyberman not to sound crude but your suggestions for team members are horrid.

[Headhunter]

I don't see it working unless they used Millar/Hitch, and then it's just cannibalizing the Ultimate line...no thanks.

[Mister Mets]

They've tried this. Freedome Force, The New Invaders, and X-factor are attempts at government super teams. It doesn't tend to work that well. The big problem lies when the ideals of super heroics start to clash with plotics.

Now on the other hand, if Nick Fury were to happen to decided that he needs an Unoffcial Team that doesn't techincally exist, that could work.

1. If I'm not mistaken Peter David's run on X-Factor sold really well, and is considered one of the best in the X-Men's history.

2. The Unofficial team idea is excellent.


Oh and Cyberman not to sound crude but your suggestions for team members are horrid.

I honestly did not put much thought into them.


It would probably need people that were more willing to get their hands dirty. A Black Ops type of thing. Maybe Black Widow or Electra or even Mystique. War Machine maybe. US Agent is always a good soldier when he needs to be.

These ideas for members are better than my ideas, especially given what Millar did with Elektra.

[Jim Yost]

Actually, I'm into your choices just BECAUSE they're so out there... what stories do you have in mind that would grow out of such choices?

Oh yeah, and PAD's X-Factor was INSANELY GOOD.

[Alan2099]

I meant comicverse. Sales and storywise, X-factor did excellent.

[Smarty Jones]

Of course it can be done. The trick to making a superhuman government-sponsored team work is to remove some of the superhero elements and adding in some espionage/spy elements.

There are Marvel characters who I feel have the essential abilities (mostly physical, low- to moderate-level abilities logical and appropriate for such a book, military-type training or experience) to form a group:

CAPTAIN AMERICA. Obviously, not only because of his leadership abilities but because of his offensive prowess and the governmental ties since his inception. A lot of his foes (The Red Skull, Baron Zemo, Flag-Smasher, etc.) are natural choices as political enemies or even international terrorists.

THE BLACK WIDOW. Former spy for the Russians who is now working for the other side. Her abilities aren't far-fetched and are mostly the result of discipline and training.

BISHOP. As a former member of the futuristic XSE, Bishop has the innate discipline and mindset of a soldier. His mutant powers can come in handy, but Bishop has shown to employ weaponry and detective-type skills.

SAGE. As a character with some terrorist-type training, a superhuman computer-like brain and complete body control a la characters in "The Matrix," Tessa would be another logical choice. Of course, the deus ex machina complex would have to go (as well as her mutant-activating powers and her supressed telepathy).

THE FALCON. His mental rapport with Redwing and flight make him the perfect person for reconnaisance. Like most of the other characters, his background is not too entrenched to turn him into a superhuman agent.

BANSHEE. A former Interpol agent who has proven leadership skills via his training of Generation X and The X-Corps. He would make a strong unit leader outside of Cap.

WARBIRD. A former Air Force pilot, she could use a fresh start after being ran through the superhero ringer since 1980s (the Marcus story, becoming Binary and then losing her powers, an alcoholic, killing The Master in battle). Think of Sharon Carter with some low-level powers.

FORGE. An inventor extraordinaire who can create machinery and technology out of about anything would be invaluable. Also, Forge has military training, having served in Vietnam (where he lost his right hand and right leg).

DAREDEVIL. The hardest one to turn because of the entrenched history obviously, but his radar-like senses and fighting skills are perfect for such a team. Because of the complications of his identity being outed, Nick Fury did offer Matt Murdock a place in S.H.I.E.L.D. recently.

That's nine quality characters who have the appropriate skills and abilities, even without Daredevil. It would be a great concept if these characters went into S.H.I.E.L.D. and became either a superhuman unit or mixture units of themselves and some S.H.I.E.L.D. agents.

[Alan2099]

I'd replace Cap with U.S. Agent. Cap's a bit too much of a super hero to do the dirty work needed.

[Smarty Jones]

"I'd replace Cap with U.S. Agent. Cap's a bit too much of a super hero to do the dirty work needed."

I personally would have the iconic original whose whole origin is tied to government interactions and has an extensive history with S.H.I.E.L.D. Not only that, Captain America could even become an eventual successor to Nick Fury and his interactions with former lover Sharon Carter would make for interesting back stories.

John Walker really adds nothing, save for a substitute for that icon. Not only that, Cap has a lot of villains who seem to flow naturally into government agency threats.

[XPac]

I'd replace Cap with U.S. Agent. Cap's a bit too much of a super hero to do the dirty work needed.

I agree. Now that I think about it, I actually have trouble imagining that Cap was ever a soldier in war. The mental image of Cap with any sort of fire arm mowing down nazi's just seems out of character. In a lot of ways, Cap makes a horrible soldier if you think about it.

[Will.S]

Of course it can be done. The trick to making a superhuman government-sponsored team work is to remove some of the superhero elements and adding in some espionage/spy elements.

There are Marvel characters who I feel have the essential abilities (mostly physical, low- to moderate-level abilities logical and appropriate for such a book, military-type training or experience) to form a group:

CAPTAIN AMERICA. Obviously, not only because of his leadership abilities but because of his offensive prowess and the governmental ties since his inception. A lot of his foes (The Red Skull, Baron Zemo, Flag-Smasher, etc.) are natural choices as political enemies or even international terrorists.

THE BLACK WIDOW. Former spy for the Russians who is now working for the other side. Her abilities aren't far-fetched and are mostly the result of discipline and training.

BISHOP. As a former member of the futuristic XSE, Bishop has the innate discipline and mindset of a soldier. His mutant powers can come in handy, but Bishop has shown to employ weaponry and detective-type skills.

SAGE. As a character with some terrorist-type training, a superhuman computer-like brain and complete body control a la characters in "The Matrix," Tessa would be another logical choice. Of course, the deus ex machina complex would have to go (as well as her mutant-activating powers and her supressed telepathy).

THE FALCON. His mental rapport with Redwing and flight make him the perfect person for reconnaisance. Like most of the other characters, his background is not too entrenched to turn him into a superhuman agent.

BANSHEE. A former Interpol agent who has proven leadership skills via his training of Generation X and The X-Corps. He would make a strong unit leader outside of Cap.

WARBIRD. A former Air Force pilot, she could use a fresh start after being ran through the superhero ringer since 1980s (the Marcus story, becoming Binary and then losing her powers, an alcoholic, killing The Master in battle). Think of Sharon Carter with some low-level powers.

FORGE. An inventor extraordinaire who can create machinery and technology out of about anything would be invaluable. Also, Forge has military training, having served in Vietnam (where he lost his right hand and right leg).

DAREDEVIL. The hardest one to turn because of the entrenched history obviously, but his radar-like senses and fighting skills are perfect for such a team. Because of the complications of his identity being outed, Nick Fury did offer Matt Murdock a place in S.H.I.E.L.D. recently.

That's nine quality characters who have the appropriate skills and abilities, even without Daredevil. It would be a great concept if these characters went into S.H.I.E.L.D. and became either a superhuman unit or mixture units of themselves and some S.H.I.E.L.D. agents.
That's a good team but it's still lacking that Thor'like power house. Warbird just kinda fills that spot but I'm not sure who else would be at that level and is willing to work within those circumstances. I'm tempted to say Sentry but I know your disdain for him will write him off automatically.

BTW what do you mean by Sage having "complete body control a la characters in "The Matrix,"?

[Alan2099]

I agree. Now that I think about it, I actually have trouble imagining that Cap was ever a soldier in war. The mental image of Cap with any sort of fire arm mowing down nazi's just seems out of character. In a lot of ways, Cap makes a horrible soldier if you think about it.
Actually, I can see it. He was knee deep in the dead so to speak, so once he got out of thing and entered a new gae where everybody looked up to him, he wanted to put aside the killing and live up to his iconic status.

[Smarty Jones]

"That's a good team but it's still lacking that Thor'like power house. Warbird just kinda fills that spot but I'm not sure who else would be at that level and is willing to work within those circumstances. I'm tempted to say Sentry but I know your disdain for him will write him off automatically.

BTW what do you mean by Sage having complete body control a la characters in 'The Matrix?'"

The thing is some elements of a traditional superhero concept do not mesh well with the government/secret agent/espionage concepts. Overly powerful characters such as The Sentry make S.H.I.E.L.D irrevelant, and characters that shoot lightning out their fingertips or can travel at light speed are a little hard to integrate realistically.

I didn't want to have a traditional superhuman team that works for the government (see X-Factor or Freedom Force) as much as I wanted superhuman characters who work within the framework of an established agency. That means you have to find characters who have mostly physical skills and/or moderately powerful and in this case have some sense of military background or applications.

My guys would work with S.H.I.E.L.D. operatives in tandem or occasionally leading a group of operatives. Sometimes, they would fight as unit but a lot of times I see it as Banshee and Forge leading a group of soldiers. I envision my use of the Marvel heroes as a combination of what is in "The Ultimates" and what was seen with Team 7/I.O. in the Wildstorm Universe -- NOT like StormWatch.

As for Sage, her mutant powers -- namely, a computer-like brain that allows her to process information much faster -- have been extended to where she has full control of her body to perform almost superhuman physical activities (for some reason, it reminds of the things characters in "The Maxtrix" did).

[Smarty Jones]

"I agree. Now that I think about it, I actually have trouble imagining that Cap was ever a soldier in war. The mental image of Cap with any sort of fire arm mowing down nazi's just seems out of character. In a lot of ways, Cap makes a horrible soldier if you think about it."

I can see Captain America definitely playing a role in the manner of Team 7 or the I.O. superpowered soldiers leading a troop of men into a reconnaisance mission. I even can see Cap handling the strategic portion of battles in a commander role along with Nick Fury.

Assuming that Daredevil is out of the picture, simply imagine characters like Cap, Bishop, Forge, The Black Widow, The Falcon and Warbird as S.H.I.E.L.D. officers, not as traditional superheroes. Imagine this characters either acting as part of a smaller group or leading units vs. characters like The Red Skull or infiltrating HYDRA.

[hbkabdul]

Of course it can be done. The trick to making a superhuman government-sponsored team work is to remove some of the superhero elements and adding in some espionage/spy elements.

There are Marvel characters who I feel have the essential abilities (mostly physical, low- to moderate-level abilities logical and appropriate for such a book, military-type training or experience) to form a group:

CAPTAIN AMERICA. Obviously, not only because of his leadership abilities but because of his offensive prowess and the governmental ties since his inception. A lot of his foes (The Red Skull, Baron Zemo, Flag-Smasher, etc.) are natural choices as political enemies or even international terrorists.

THE BLACK WIDOW. Former spy for the Russians who is now working for the other side. Her abilities aren't far-fetched and are mostly the result of discipline and training.

BISHOP. As a former member of the futuristic XSE, Bishop has the innate discipline and mindset of a soldier. His mutant powers can come in handy, but Bishop has shown to employ weaponry and detective-type skills.

SAGE. As a character with some terrorist-type training, a superhuman computer-like brain and complete body control a la characters in "The Matrix," Tessa would be another logical choice. Of course, the deus ex machina complex would have to go (as well as her mutant-activating powers and her supressed telepathy).

THE FALCON. His mental rapport with Redwing and flight make him the perfect person for reconnaisance. Like most of the other characters, his background is not too entrenched to turn him into a superhuman agent.

BANSHEE. A former Interpol agent who has proven leadership skills via his training of Generation X and The X-Corps. He would make a strong unit leader outside of Cap.

WARBIRD. A former Air Force pilot, she could use a fresh start after being ran through the superhero ringer since 1980s (the Marcus story, becoming Binary and then losing her powers, an alcoholic, killing The Master in battle). Think of Sharon Carter with some low-level powers.

FORGE. An inventor extraordinaire who can create machinery and technology out of about anything would be invaluable. Also, Forge has military training, having served in Vietnam (where he lost his right hand and right leg).

DAREDEVIL. The hardest one to turn because of the entrenched history obviously, but his radar-like senses and fighting skills are perfect for such a team. Because of the complications of his identity being outed, Nick Fury did offer Matt Murdock a place in S.H.I.E.L.D. recently.

That's nine quality characters who have the appropriate skills and abilities, even without Daredevil. It would be a great concept if these characters went into S.H.I.E.L.D. and became either a superhuman unit or mixture units of themselves and some S.H.I.E.L.D. agents.


This pitch sounds bloody terrible. For starters "espionage and spy elements" are pratically non-existant in the Ultimates so why would this book need to be heavy on that to succeed. Ultimates reads like looking at superheroes through a widescreen lens. Your team of characters and the basis for them being on the team could apply to just about any other characters in the MU. Punisher fought in Vietnam can he be on the team? Professor X and Juggernaut were in the Korean War and have superhuman powers can they join down the line? This sounds like some Epic pitch you hand sitting on your C: drive and nothing like what an Ultimate book sit in 616 should look like.

[Frank]

I`ve thought of this idea long before The Ultimates. I think it would be great to have a concept like that in 616. Just having guys like Nick Fury, Silver Sable, a few former Invaders like Mighty Destroyer, Union Jack, Human Torch, a few mutants etc...would be awesome. Have them be super-professional black-ops type guys that are not as screw ups as The Ultimates. A name like The Marvels would be too gay for them, though ;) they should have a more badass name like the "Vicious Circle". Or perhaps a mythic war-time name like "The Devil`s Brigade".

[Smarty Jones]

This pitch sounds bloody terrible. For starters "espionage and spy elements" are pratically non-existant in the Ultimates so why would this book need to be heavy on that to succeed. Ultimates reads like looking at superheroes through a widescreen lens. Your team of characters and the basis for them being on the team could apply to just about any other characters in the MU. Punisher fought in Vietnam can he be on the team? Professor X and Juggernaut were in the Korean War and have superhuman powers can they join down the line? This sounds like some Epic pitch you hand sitting on your C: drive and nothing like what an Ultimate book sit in 616 should look like.

Considering it came from someone who loves Reggie Hudlin's "Black Panther," that mean it actually will work.

[Shellhead]

Now on the other hand, if Nick Fury were to happen to decided that he needs an Unoffcial Team that doesn't techincally exist, that could work.

Maybe like this team?:

http://image.milehighcomics.com/istore/images/large/57058423228.33.gif

[Cayman]

Dunno if there should be one, but I'd probably put a bunch of the more lethal MU characters and some villianous types on the team.


Black Widow - bad-ass Richard K. Morgan interpretation
Blazing Skull - funny gallows humor plus he's cool-looking
Fantomax - kills people, has his own space-ship
Avalanche - he worked for the government before and no-one else seems interested in him
Paibok The Power Skull - dry, arch space villian coerced into working for the government

Cay