Is RED SON the best Superman-related Elseworlds story ?

[jboncha]

I havent read too many Superman Elseworld stories BUT I think its gotta be up there.

The Superman Elseworlds stories I have read are The Nail, dark Side and Kingdom Come.

Lets hear what you guys think is the best Superman-related Elseworlds story.




Josh B

[K'Nort]

I think Red Son had the best premise. But Kingdom Come had better execution. Does Unholy 3 count?

[cactusmaac]

I liked Dark Side best.

[pauwoo]

No, the whole story was okay, but not that great, a nice twist at the end

As a story i like the nail and also the story that ran in the superman/superboy annual a few years back, that was a parody of the magnificent 7.

[Cayman]

I dunno if it's the best, but it utterly fantastic and essential. I was really blown away by how good it was.

Cay

[KET]

I havent read too many Superman Elseworld stories BUT I think its gotta be up there.


Yes, I'd agree that RED SON was fine overall. The premise was certainly mighty good, although the third act concludes this tale a bit too neatly for my tastes (which was a letdown).



Lets hear what you guys think is the best Superman-related Elseworlds story.


SECRET IDENTITY....which is also simply the most enjoyably INVOLVING Superman-related tale I've read in DECADES. :)

[gketter]

yea Secret Identities was a great astro city..er i mean superman story. A great read.

One that i read a while back that i found enjoyable was Son of Superman.

[SuperManny]

As a story i like the nail and also the story that ran in the superman/superboy annual a few years back, that was a parody of the magnificent 7.

I'm pretty sure which story you are referring to.....do you remember the writer? And how does it parody the Magnificent Seven -by having Luthor/Metallo on the team?

*hasn't read it in a long time*

[public defender]

I dunno if it's the best, but it utterly fantastic and essential. I was really blown away by how good it was.
The guys at my LCS kept trying to get me to buy it when the mini was out, but I never did. It took them a couple of months to get me to buy the trade.

The whole story just blew me away, but the ending...that ending was perfect. What a twist! I re-read the trade immediately just to take it all in.

[JLarson]

I would say yes, it is.

[i_mmmchocolate]

Most definitely yes. I loved every bit of Red Son, from start to finish.

[Toonimator]

yea Secret Identities was a great astro city..er i mean superman story. A great read.

One that i read a while back that i found enjoyable was Son of Superman.

How is "Superman: Secret Identity" an Astro City story? The narration?

My big beef with Son of Superman, and it's really nitpicky, was a lack of explanation of Jon's powers. Little nuggets were dropped, like a mention that he doesn't have X-ray vision or somesuch... and his trip home after getting sick, he hops, more like original Superman, but then when he gets the costume on, he's FLYING... making turns & such... but at the end, Clark tells him they're driving because HE can fly, while Jon has that leaping thing...

Loved the JLA costume updates... not crazy about the aged depictions of the characters. Wally & Kyle had too many lines on their faces, especially compared to the somewhat-older Lois (then again, she probably had tons of work done), as well as Pete & Lana. And further setting this Elseworlds apart from the DCU and other Elseworlds, Aquaman's got an artificial right hand instead of left!! :eek:

The Nail is great... but Red Son's twist ending, and interesting handling of other characters both from DCU and Superman-tales, takes it for me.

[Adam Crocker]

As a story i like the nail and also the story that ran in the superman/superboy annual a few years back, that was a parody of the magnificent 7.

"The Super Seven?" I dunno, read more like a homage to me.

[bigman45]

this is one of the best books i ever read about superman i mean all the things that happend all i can say is wow ... and the hole batman thing ... :eek: ... mwas the iceing on the cake ... right when i thought i was going to the marvel side .. bam i'm back on the dc side .. god i love comics

[bloodyarts]

I don't read alot of Superman stories. I choose very carefully when it comes to him. Red Son was a good choice, and maybe the best Superman story I've ever read, period.

There was a Supergirl/Batgirl Elseworlds that came out about 5-10 years ago that was awesome. Superman is only in it at the end, but it made me say, "oh s..t!".

Think The Matrix, only this was years before The Matrix hit theaters.

[Ray192]

no "Whatever Happened to the Man of Tomorrow"?Tsk tsk tsk.

[Headhunter]

Kingdom Come is the gold standard; it's the first TPB I ever bought (it was a tossup between that and Dark Knight Returns, which I got a week or two later).

I honestly don't expect to ever read a better epic superhero tale in my life.

[Patriot07]

I agree with Ray. Whatever Happened to the Man of Tomorrow?>everything else.

[Bored at 3:00AM]

I don't consider "Whatever Happened to the Man of Tomorrow?" an Elseworlds tale at all. It was written as the conclusion to Julie Shwartz's long tenure as the character's caretaker. The "Imaginary Story" tag was only meant to be a dig at people obsessed with what's continuity and what's not.

Red Son was pretty good. Millar really went to town and Morrison's ending was a particularly nice touch. Secret Identity was also very good and I can see where the Astro City comparisons come from. It did feel a lot like an Astro City story with Superman.

[Mister Mets]

Kingdom Come is the better Superman story, but Red Son is the better overall story. I'd recommend both.

Kingdom Come gets bogged down by so many supporting characters that you don't even know, or care about the deaths at the end. The Superman scenes are consistently amazing, and easy to follow.

[Headhunter]

Kingdom Come gets bogged down by so many supporting characters that you don't even know, or care about the deaths at the end. The Superman scenes are consistently amazing, and easy to follow.
The supporting characters don't overwhelm; they usually fit into the background, such as Luthor's team of metahumans who he teams with Batman's force (Green Arrow, I think the Blue Beetle, the Batrobots).

I can see where you're coming from, but don't think it's a detraction for someone who isn't versed in DC continuity. At least, it wasn't for me. :)

[Lorendiac]

I liked "Red Son," but there were some things that damaged my suspension of disbelief. I seem to recall a blithe assumption that the late-twentieth-century USA's economy would have gone into a tailspin and stayed in that wretched condition for a long time if Superman were the Communist Dictator of the Soviet Union at the same time. I couldn't see any reason why that would happen.

I readily concede that with his super-speed and super-hearing and X-ray vision and so forth, an honest and dedicated Communist Dictator Superman would be in a good position to ferret out massive corruption in his own government and thus, perhaps, make the USSR's economy somewhat healthier and faster-growing than it actually was during the Cold War. But I didn't see why the USA's robust capitalist economy would be on its deathbed until the brilliant Lex Luthor was elected to wave his magic wand and fix things that nobody else ever had a clue how to fix before he came along.

On the other hand, I loved Millar's portrayal of the Russian Batman. (Except, of course, for the unhappy ending he suffered when he lost his big bid to overthrow the Communist Dictator, and had to blow himself up to avoid being lobotomized.)

[Desaad]

Its interesting that the ending to "Red Son" was actually given to Millar by Morrison.

[Guts/Batman]

I been thinking about getting this TPB. Any positive reviews, my fellow CBRers?

[Gingold]

I think it's the best thing Mark Millar's ever done, and one of the best Superman stories in the past several years. I wish all the Elseworlds were this good.

It's worth itjust for Batman in the fur lined cowl.

[Guts/Batman]

I have had it in my hand carrying it around as I browsed the comic shop but have always put it back.

[TJ Shoun]

It kicks ass.

I've let several friends borrow my copy and they all loved it as much as I did.

The ending is such a great twist.

[TJ Shoun]

Its interesting that the ending to "Red Son" was actually given to Millar by Morrison.

I didn't know anything about this.

Is it true?

Details?

[JLarson]

It wouldn't be the first time Morrison ghost-wrote something for Millar.

There's an issue of The Authority that, rumor has it, is almost entirely Morrison.

[The Shadow]

Kingdom Come is the gold standard;
I honestly don't expect to ever read a better epic superhero tale in my life.
Same here.

Whatever happened... is a close second and Red Son is third

[stealthwise]

Its interesting that the ending to "Red Son" was actually given to Millar by Morrison.

That's true, but that same type of ending was also used by Alan Moore in "Supreme: Story of the Year" and in actuality, time-travel paradoxes aren't exactly brand-spanking-new material, dating back to science fiction stories from what, the 20s? 30s?

Good tpb though.

[Daniel Hopkins]

I ordered the trade today and I'm so keen to see what all the hype is about.
Please dont go giving away the ending people!!!

[dancj]

That's true, but that same type of ending was also used by Alan Moore in "Supreme: Story of the Year" and in actuality, time-travel paradoxes aren't exactly brand-spanking-new material, dating back to science fiction stories from what, the 20s? 30s?

Good tpb though.

I never saw it as a time travel paradox. More of an amazing coincidence

[LibrarianThorne]

I'd put Red Son after Whatever Happened to the Man of Tomorrow and Kingdom Come. It's damn good, no doubt, but there's too many amazing Superman Elseworlds stories to contend with. It's just barely beating out Secret Identity and Son of Superman.

[Toonimator]

I never saw it as a time travel paradox. More of an amazing coincidence
Which story? Red Son or Supreme: Story of the Year? I've not read the latter. I don't know that paradox is the right word, but it's definitely a time loop. Because of the journey to the past, the future came about that necessitated the travel back in time. I guess it could be seen as a paradox because there's no way to break the loop to better fulfill what the future scientist intended to accomplish.

[Deskad]

My question is, how do today's Russians feel about this story I wonder.

[dancj]

Which story?

Red Son.

Maybe I missed it, but...

I never thought that the child that gets sent at the end is sent back in time. I just assumed that it was sent to another Earthlike planet, and is destined to live a similar life.

I'll have to check the book to be sure now

[Davideaux]

I liked it. I'm not a Superman fan though so I can't compare it to any other story. It could have been better though. The ending was rushed and the scenes with Superman interacting with the other superpowered folk (Batman and WW) were really underdeveloped.

[stealthwise]

I never saw it as a time travel paradox. More of an amazing coincidence

Oh, it was a paradox. It's quite clear that the lineage of Lex Luthor eventually follows down to Kal's line and that the earth's sun has become red at that point. Because of the direct link between the present and the future, you get a paradox that has no true beginning or ending.

Not that it detracts from the story in the slightest. It basically shows that Superman is the best that humanity has to offer, in a way.

[literally exaggerated]

I loved it for their take on fanatical revolutionary terrorist Batman

[dancj]

Oh, it was a paradox. It's quite clear that the lineage of Lex Luthor eventually follows down to Kal's line and that the earth's sun has become red at that point. Because of the direct link between the present and the future, you get a paradox that has no true beginning or ending.

Not that it detracts from the story in the slightest. It basically shows that Superman is the best that humanity has to offer, in a way.

I had a look and you're right. I don't know how I missed that the first time round

[KenK]

Anyone remember Superman: Speeding Bullets? Where Kal-El crash landed near Gotham and was found by Tom and Martha Wayne?!? I thought that was an interesting premise of merging the origins of Superman and Batman, although I think it ultimately favored Superman.

[NotSuper]

Red Son was certainly a great story (even though Kal's ship should've landed in 1923 rather than 1938) but I'd have to say that the best Superman Elseworlds story is Kingdom Come.

[Tadhg Adams]

I thought Red Son was okay, but not really all that superior to stories like the Dark Side, it was a fun little elseworlds.

While not earth-shattering, by any means, I find Distant Fires and Son of Superman to be more enjoyable reads. Even if the ending of Distant Fires leaves me cold.

[Wally West]

How powerful was he compared to current Superman?

[i_mmmchocolate]

Are there any good Elseworld trades (excluding Red Son and Trinity) with Superman?

All replies are appreciated; thanks.

[Mainline]

Superman: War of the Worlds - Has that golden age dime-store pulp-novel feel that uses the classic, flightless version of Superman to fight the alien threat from WotW.
JLA: New Frontier - Similar vein as above.
Secret Identity - Unconventional Superman tale of a real(ish)-world person gaining the abilities of Superman.
It's A Bird - An even more unconventional Superman tale taking place in the real world and the mind of a comic-book writer and how Superman as a concept and icon impacts his life and the lives of others.

[dancj]

Superman: War of the Worlds - Has that golden age dime-store pulp-novel feel that uses the classic, flightless version of Superman to fight the alien threat from WotW.
JLA: New Frontier - Similar vein as above.
Secret Identity - Unconventional Superman tale of a real(ish)-world person gaining the abilities of Superman.
It's A Bird - An even more unconventional Superman tale taking place in the real world and the mind of a comic-book writer and how Superman as a concept and icon impacts his life and the lives of others.




All good suggestions (except maybe It's a Bird, but I know that's highly regarded)

Also...
The Dark Side - Supes being sent to Apokalipse as a baby
Son of Superman- Set in the future - what it says on the tin. Very good
Last Son of Earth and Last Stand on Krypton - Superman sent from Earth to Krypton as a baby. Steve Gerber so you know it's good!
Superman's Metropolis - Inspired by the old German film

Superman IMO has much better Elseworlds stories than Batman usually gets.

[The Mirrorball Man]

I don't know if "Red Son" is the best Superman Elseworlds story (it is very good, though), but I'm almost certain it's the best Lex Luthor Elseworlds story, if not the best Lex Luthor story period.

[Forsaken_One]

I don't know if "Red Son" is the best Superman Elseworlds story (it is very good, though), but I'm almost certain it's the best Lex Luthor Elseworlds story, if not the best Lex Luthor story period.
I liked Lex Luthor: Man of Steel more as a Luthor story, but I've always liked his Machiavellian persona more than the mad scientist look.

And to ape everyone else here, Secret Identity was one of the best I've read (better than Red Son I think) and Red Son was a very good Elseworlds even if the ending didn't "wow" me.

One elseworlds I really enjoyed was "JLA: Secret Society of Super-Heroes." I liked the updated costumes and the story was good, even if I didn't completely agree with their characterization of Wally and Kyle. Good book overall though, especially since it didn't fall into the trap so many elseworlds seem to, where in the end there's a Superman/JLA/Batman guarding America/the world/[insert city] just like there is in the DCU despite all the differences. Well, not completely anyway.

[The Joker]

So far out of all the "elseworlds" Superman stories I have read, yes. Red Son is by far the most enjoyable for my money.

Kingdom Come comes in at a very, very close second.

[LordEd1976]

Superman's Metropolis - Inspired by the old German film

As a fan of Fritz Lang's masterpiece that Elseworlds has a special place in my heart. I love how the artist interpreted the robot transformation scene.

I also like JLA: the Nail, Kingdom Come, and WHTTMOT. I didnt like JLA: Another Nail though. I thought it was a weak sequel.

[IPW]

I got to say the Best Superman ElseWorld is Kingdom Come with WHTTNOP in sold second place.
I liked Red Son, but "the twist" ending killed it for me. I was fine with it till then. The writing and art are good, and everyone should read it, but....that ending is just terrible.
Some other good Superman ElseWorld
The Dark Side
Son of Superman
Superman:Metropolis (and its two sequel with Batman and Wonder Woman)
Elseworlds Finest (Supergirl and Batgirl)
Speeding Bullet is okay too!

[dancj]

I liked Red Son, but "the twist" ending killed it for me. I was fine with it till then. The writing and art are good, and everyone should read it, but....that ending is just terrible.

I assume you're talking about the time travel ending. I liked it, but it's not the real ending to the story. The real ending is where superman backs down and Luthor turns out to be a very good leader and that is the ending is the one that counts. The other one (which was Grant Morrison's idea BTW) is just a bit of fun tacked on the end

Dan

[Strider119]

Red Son was good, gotta love that clever bit at the end ... but I will tell you what I didn't like and I am sure I am gonna get jumped for this


Superman for All Seasons


I didn't like that one bit.




getting got:
strider119

[m0nster_zero]

i actually haven't read a lot of superman elseworld's stories, not being a huge fan of superman. i've heard so much about red son that i've been meaning to pick it up and just haven't. i read the one where clark kent is batman. would that count as a superman elseworlds or a batman elseworlds? and i read the one from the '94 (i think) annuals. where superboy has a ponytail and superman is wearing a black leather jacket. i think flash has something wrong w/ his legs in it that keeps him from being able to run. i thought that was an awesome story. not very well written. honestly i can't even remember who wrote it. but the idea and story are great.

[aukevin]

I was recently going through some of my comics over the past 10 years of so and I grabbed a few that I wanted to read again or some that I never got around to. Most recently I just read for the first time the Superman Elseworlds stories of "Last Son of Earth" and the sequel to it "Last Stand on Krypton." I really enjoyed these two stories and they ranked right up there with some of my favorite Elseworlds. Anyone else like these two?

[captain_unimpressive]

Just wondering:
I know it doesn't claim to be anything of the sort, but does Bizarro World count as an Elseworlds?
Because those were great.

[dancj]

Anyone else like these two?
Yup - They are great. Generally I think Superman has much better Elseworlds stories than Batman.

Dan

[dancj]

Just wondering:
I know it doesn't claim to be anything of the sort, but does Bizarro World count as an Elseworlds?
No. Elseworlds is about taking a hero and either making some fundemental tweak, mixing their story with another story or putting them in some other hsitorical setting.

Some people try to claim that anything out of continuity is Elseworlds, so they'd disagree

[DemonJack]

Red Son has got to be among the best. I loved it and it's one of those I comics I go back and read for no reason.

[KrymynalChylde]

To be quite honest, other than once in a while glances, I've never read a Superman comic (issue TPB GN whatever) EXCEPT Red Son, and I thought it rocked but I can't really judge as this is the extent of my supes reading.

[jboncha]

There was a Supergirl/Batgirl Elseworlds that came out about 5-10 years ago that was awesome. Superman is only in it at the end, but it made me say, "oh s..t!".

Think The Matrix, only this was years before The Matrix hit theaters.

Yeah.
Elseworlds Finest is one of my all-time fave stories.
I read a least once a year.
I dont realy see how its comparable to The Matrix though ... :confused:




J B

[Froggy]

I had a idea for an elseworlds......everything was good to me except the title

SUperman: Mindf*CK

[batturtle]

For me, hands down, the best Superman Elseworlds story ever is 'Secret Identity' by Kurt Busiek and Stuart Immomen. That's actually probably my favorite Superman story of any kind (or at least tied with any time Grant Morrison is writing the character).

[niall mc cann]

I liked "Red Son," but there were some things that damaged my suspension of disbelief. I seem to recall a blithe assumption that the late-twentieth-century USA's economy would have gone into a tailspin and stayed in that wretched condition for a long time if Superman were the Communist Dictator of the Soviet Union at the same time. I couldn't see any reason why that would happen.

I readily concede that with his super-speed and super-hearing and X-ray vision and so forth, an honest and dedicated Communist Dictator Superman would be in a good position to ferret out massive corruption in his own government and thus, perhaps, make the USSR's economy somewhat healthier and faster-growing than it actually was during the Cold War. But I didn't see why the USA's robust capitalist economy would be on its deathbed until the brilliant Lex Luthor was elected to wave his magic wand and fix things that nobody else ever had a clue how to fix before he came along.



That bothered me too. Also, i thought that though it was sold as "same superman... just a communist" it didn't really live up to that premise; i mean, he was lobotomising people that didn't agree with him!I have a problem seeing someone who would do such a thing as a fundamentally decent guy.

I thought the Batman fight was pure fanboy pointlessness; i'm just not sure what purpose it served in the story, other than the idea that ever since DKR, it's cool to have Bats and Supes kicking the crap out of each other (and batman, natch, must win...), and i'm really surprised to hear Morrison gave him the ending, though it didn't seem to ever fit as part of the story to me... what had it got to do with anything!?!

To me, Red Son is one of the most over-rated comics ever written. I was really disappointed by it.

Anyone remember Superman: Speeding Bullets? Where Kal-El crash landed near Gotham and was found by Tom and Martha Wayne?!? I thought that was an interesting premise of merging the origins of Superman and Batman, although I think it ultimately favored Superman.

Yep.. Years since i read it, but at the time i loved it deeply.

[The Shadow]

To me, Red Son is one of the most over-rated comics ever written.

Wow.

Is it because you fundamentally, when it all gets broken down, don't like the portrayal of the United States in it?

[Holacik]

That bothered me too. Also, i thought that though it was sold as "same superman... just a communist" it didn't really live up to that premise; i mean, he was lobotomising people that didn't agree with him!I have a problem seeing someone who would do such a thing as a fundamentally decent guy. Well in Superman's eyes he thought what he was doing was for thier own good. He felt forcing people to conform was better then either sending them to jail or killing them outright.

I thought the Batman fight was pure fanboy pointlessness; i'm just not sure what purpose it served in the story, other than the idea that ever since DKR, it's cool to have Bats and Supes kicking the crap out of each other (and batman, natch, must win...), and i'm really surprised to hear Morrison gave him the ending, though it didn't seem to ever fit as part of the story to me... what had it got to do with anything!?!

The most important part of that battle was what happened to WW. She had spent so many years helping Superman build his perfect world just waiting for him to notice her. Then in his most dire time she sacrificed everything for him and he still didn't really notice.

By the way the reason that American economy fell apart is because most of the world was communist and the US wasn't trading with them.

[niall mc cann]

Wow.

Is it because you fundamentally, when it all gets broken down, don't like the portrayal of the United States in it?

Oh no, that was just something that occurred to me, is all.

What really bugged me was the portrayal of Superman. He was not the fundamentally decent guy that i recognise from the regular DCU. He was a lobotomising fascist who crippled people who disagree with him; I had picked the book up kind of expecting him to be a guy who, due to his fervent belief in the communist ideology and abilities that made it possibly practical to make such an ideology work, made it work. He didn't do anything that many another ruthless dictator wouldn't have done if he'd had the technology.

Well in Superman's eyes he thought what he was doing was for thier own good. He felt forcing people to conform was better then either sending them to jail or killing them outright.

Yeah, but i don't see the moral difference between killing the person and taking away all free will and personal identity as being that particularly great. Superman as i know him wouldn't stand for such a thing, or for an ideology that required it to survive. If Superman is willing to do such a thing, then that's not just a shift in political ideology, but a fundamental moral and ethical split from existing Superman portrayals. If Supes is willing to that, why isn't he doing it to Lex in the regular books?

The most important part of that battle was what happened to WW. She had spent so many years helping Superman build his perfect world just waiting for him to notice her. Then in his most dire time she sacrificed everything for him and he still didn't really notice.


Which is fair enough. Kind of tears the heart out of WW's nobility and strength though, too, in my eyes.

By the way the reason that American economy fell apart is because most of the world was communist and the US wasn't trading with them.

I don't buy it. All that means is that the American economy would be many times over stronger than any other in the world. I don't see what would make it such a wreck.

[Lorendiac]

I don't buy it. All that means is that the American economy would be many times over stronger than any other in the world. I don't see what would make it such a wreck.

I felt much the same way when I first read "Red Son." My basic attitude was that, in real life, the various Communist nations of the 20th Century worked long and hard to prove how painfully inefficient their economic systems were. Putting Superman in charge of the Soviet Union might have helped correct some of the worst abuses by individual officials, but it wouldn't magically turn the USSR's economy into the world's greatest overachiever as long as they were stuck with such an impractical system at the heart of things.

[niall mc cann]

I felt much the same way when I first read "Red Son." My basic attitude was that, in real life, the various Communist nations of the 20th Century worked long and hard to prove how painfully inefficient their economic systems were. Putting Superman in charge of the Soviet Union might have helped correct some of the worst abuses by individual officials, but it wouldn't magically turn the USSR's economy into the world's greatest overachiever as long as they were stuck with such an impractical system at the heart of things.

Yup, i agree.

I should reiterate though that that's not what made me dislike the book; I don't even really think that it's all that bad, i just don't feel it on any level deserves the kind of universal adoration it gets. The economic point is just one of the more minor symptoms of the lazy writing that i feel characterises the book, just like the pointless, tacked-on twist that was irelevant to everything that preceded it.

Superman is a communist, therefore communism works... I don't see how the one follows the other, and the book never at any stage attempted to connect that line of causality, except by having him perform acts of moral perversity which are frankly out of character and could have comfortably fitted in any sf-communist story; it was completely unnecessary to have Superman as the protaganist if that was where the plot was going.

[Holacik]

Yup, i agree.

I should reiterate though that that's not what made me dislike the book; I don't even really think that it's all that bad, i just don't feel it on any level deserves the kind of universal adoration it gets. The economic point is just one of the more minor symptoms of the lazy writing that i feel characterises the book, just like the pointless, tacked-on twist that was irelevant to everything that preceded it.

Superman is a communist, therefore communism works... I don't see how the one follows the other, and the book never at any stage attempted to connect that line of causality, except by having him perform acts of moral perversity which are frankly out of character and could have comfortably fitted in any sf-communist story; it was completely unnecessary to have Superman as the protaganist if that was where the plot was going.
The reason why the US economy failed is that other countries weren't trading with it. The most important import that the country needs to survive is oil. There is no way that the limited reserves that the country has would be able to keep things thriving.
By the way most examples of communism don't work except for China which happens to be thriving.
The reason communism started to work with Superman was because he was running it. There wouldn't be any corruption or favoritism the system would be set up to work as it's supposed to. Not to mention he had the help of Brainiac to further the development of technologies making things easier and more abundant. I think your main problem is that you view the characters on how they normally act not taking into account that things were drastically different. Superman grew up on a communist farm, taught communist views, and why he still was bound by morals those morals are askew because of his upbringing.
By the way I hated the ending as it was completely unnecessary the story worked well enough without it.

[niall mc cann]

The reason why the US economy failed is that other countries weren't trading with it. The most important import that the country needs to survive is oil. There is no way that the limited reserves that the country has would be able to keep things thriving.

actually, the oil point does make sense. i don't think it was ever mentioned in the story, but it's a small leap to make, it's certainly arguable.

The reason communism started to work with Superman was because he was running it. There wouldn't be any corruption or favoritism the system would be set up to work as it's supposed to. Not to mention he had the help of Brainiac to further the development of technologies making things easier and more abundant.

yeah, but corruption and favouritism weren't the only problems with the communist system; even under the best of circumstances, command-driven economies are moribund and unadaptive by their nature. If the idea was that the systems were running based on superman's innate creativity, intelligence and passion, and his powers made it possible for him to ensure that was carried the whole way down the chain, that wasn't at any stage brought up in the comic; all that the comic suggested was that when anyone disagreed with him, he lobotomised them. I'd imagine Joseph Stalin might have considered such an option, if it had been open to him.

I think your main problem is that you view the characters on how they normally act not taking into account that things were drastically different. Superman grew up on a communist farm, taught communist views, and why he still was bound by morals those morals are askew because of his upbringing.

That is absolutely my main problem, yes. And though i'm cool with him having communist views, i would have serious problems with the idea that because he's a communist, it's acceptable that he have severe moral lapses.

I've known several people who lived for a time under communist regimes. Not one of them had anything positive to say about the experience, their main problem being not some abstract political ideal, but that the standard of living and life prospects were terrible. Now, if through some magical intervention (for example, having Superman as chairman using his powers to personally oversee 90% of the aspects of running the soviets) that standard of living increased to a level comparable to the west, all the while a spirit of honesty (enforced by the super-chairman) allowed people to make that comparison, i'd imagine resistance to communism would have been negligable in those countries.

I hope that doesn't sound cynical, I'm not making a value judgement; i would say fair enough. That didn't get touched on in the book as i read it. he was just more muscle in an extremely repressive regime, rather than some icon to aspire to. Superman in the DCU represents everything good about the american way: freedom, truth, justice, equality of opportunity. It's undeniable that there are times in the USA where those qualities fail, and people suffer for it, but it's never portrayed in Superman as an invalidation of the ideals. RS Superman was made to bear all the weight of every corruption of a true worker's paradise that crippled real-world communism. DCU Superman is not corrupted by the failures of america, RS Superman took final responsibility for every corruption of the communist system onto himself.

To me, that's a fundamental difference at the heart of the characters; DCU Superman is the perfect american; RS Superman was just another communist, as prone to corruption of his ideals as any of them.

[The Batman]

Part of the reason that the US economy thrived, especially after the Second World War but even before then, was due to trade with the rest of the world. If the U.S. was only producing for domestic consumption, say because a hegemonic Soviet Union led by a Communist Superman denied much of the world's markets to the U.S. economy, the economy would likely be much smaller and certainly not as robust as what one would expect. It might even look a little like what we saw in Red Sun.

As for Superman being a terrible guy. Well that was part of the point. He was raised in a Stalinist state after all and part of the Stalinist approach to things was to crush any and all potential opposition. Red Sun was good, but it did fall into that trap of Superman Elseworlds where Superman overcomes his negative influences to let his natural goodness shine through.

[niall mc cann]

Part of the reason that the US economy thrived, especially after the Second World War but even before then, was due to trade with the rest of the world. If the U.S. was only producing for domestic consumption, say because a hegemonic Soviet Union led by a Communist Superman denied much of the world's markets to the U.S. economy, the economy would likely be much smaller and certainly not as robust as what one would expect. It might even look a little like what we saw in Red Sun.

That's how it happened in the real world (and presumably the DCU). In the RSU it didn't have those options, and would probably suffer for it. I can't believe it would be so much more in tatters than a communist state next door.

As for Superman being a terrible guy. Well that was part of the point. He was raised in a Stalinist state after all and part of the Stalinist approach to things was to crush any and all potential opposition. Red Sun was good, but it did fall into that trap of Superman Elseworlds where Superman overcomes his negative influences to let his natural goodness shine through.

Ah but, that's not how it was sold to me. I was told it was about superman, but with different politics. Which sounded very daring, clever and interesting. What i got was about a bad guy superman. Which is fun in its way, but not revolutionary, and RS wasn't the best treatment i'd ever seen of such a story.

[The Batman]

It was Superman with different politics. A Superman brought up in a political environment that didn't care so much about civil liberties in any real sense or the individual and it shows the Superman that might've been created. I mean for a Superman raised with Stalinist politics, is a lobotomy going to be that much of a departure from just disappearing someone to a gulag in Siberia or shooting them in the basement of the Kremlin and for the good of the party does he think these sorts of things are even all that wrong?

[niall mc cann]

It was Superman with different politics. A Superman brought up in a political environment that didn't care so much about civil liberties in any real sense or the individual and it shows the Superman that might've been created. I mean for a Superman raised with Stalinist politics, is a lobotomy going to be that much of a departure from just disappearing someone to a gulag in Siberia or shooting them in the basement of the Kremlin and for the good of the party does he think these sorts of things are even all that wrong?

You see, my objection to Stalinism is not that it's a different political ideology to my own; it's that it essentially amounts to barely-organised barbarism.

Communism i have objections to; but i recognise it as a political ideology that does not, at it's core, have a particularly violent nature. In practical terms, what grew out of the gaps in communism was often violent repression, but that's because of its weaknesses as an economic system. With superman behind it, physically filling in the gaps, i can just about believe that it might work without the brutality.

The story wasn't about that, though. it was about a guy who, when faced with the weaknesses of his personal ideology, chose brutality over re-evaluation.

And yet, in the regular books, Superman doesn't choose that when confronted with the weaknesses of capitalist democracy. he just sucks it up and chooses to try and make his society a better place the hard way. The only real way.

[The Batman]

Lacking the idealistic upbringing he got from the Kents, the story was Superman making that journey going from that brutality as you called it to realizing it was wrong and making that re-evaluation.

[MaxofSteel]

Who else besides me prefers Red Son's rendition of Bizarro? I find the freakish "Frankenstein's monster" aspect of this version much more fitting to be an opposite archtype of Supes.

And the fact that he doesn't speak as much as other iterations of Bizarro is interesting too imo.

[niall mc cann]

Lacking the idealistic upbringing he got from the Kents, the story was Superman making that journey going from that brutality as you called it to realizing it was wrong and making that re-evaluation.

Which is not the story it was sold as, as i understood it.

I don't know what to say to you, Batman, i really don't think i can explain my position any more clearly than i already have.

I picked it up expecting to read a story about the fate of the world had superman embraced the communist ideology.

The kind of barbaric excesses that Stalin was responsible for i do not accept as being legitimate aspects of a political ideology. It was mass murder, and as such is reprehensible not on a political level, but on a much more fundamental moral level, beyond considerations of political left or right.

Therefore, when i see superman engaging in acts that i consider to have a broad moral equivilancy to those excesses, i consider it not just a change in the political ideology of the character, but a shift in what i consider to be the founding principals of his personality; in other words, it's no longer the same character up there.

Which, for me, rendered the whole point of the story, as i was sold it, moot.

I hope that makes it clear what my problems with the book were, why i thought it lost its way and why, in the end, it just didn't particularly interest me.

[Alex L]

Therefore, when i see superman engaging in acts that i consider to have a broad moral equivilancy to those excesses, i consider it not just a change in the political ideology of the character, but a shift in what i consider to be the founding principals of his personality; in other words, it's no longer the same character up there.

Which, for me, rendered the whole point of the story, as i was sold it, moot.

I hope that makes it clear what my problems with the book were, why i thought it lost its way and why, in the end, it just didn't particularly interest me.

I definitely understand what you're saying, but I must disagree.

I take pretty much the exact opposite view -- there should be nothing so innate about Kal-El that he would always become Superman in the end. Like someone said in RS, had the rocket entered Earth orbit six hours earlier he would have been a very different person.

This is what annoyed me about the endings to JLA: The Nail and (even more so) Superman: The Dark Side -- no matter what the circumstances of his upbringing, by the end of the story he's Superman, the greatest force for good ever created.

And if his nature is so deeply ingrained, what's the point of Elseworlds stories involving him? We all know how it's going to end...

[The Batman]

Well essentially most every Superman Elseworld's seems to come down to that nature/nuture debate about what define's a person's character of course coming to the conclusion that no matter what his circumstances Superman is heroic, it's his nature. It makes Superman look good sure, but you're right that it can make the stories a little bit on the predictable side sometimes.

As for Superman and Communism. That's the thing, the Soviet Union was in many ways really only nominally a Communist state, which is why I used the term Stalinism. I think the problem is that we're looking at Stalinism, or the Soviet ideology as simply political when it was much more than that. Especially if you were indoctrinated or were a true believer. It went far beyond simple politics but really to the fundamental way you thought about people and society and what the relationship between people and the state should be. The Red Son Superman could do these supposedly terrible things because he was raised to believe that an individual person's life wasn't as important and the totality of the grand Soviet project. He was raised to value to community over the individual, perhaps even at the expense of the individual.

But I see what you're saying and I'm sorry this story wasn't what you wanted and you did not enjoy it.

[Desaad]

I much preferred Secret Identity. Also preferred "The Nail", although that is more a JLA-Elseworlds.

Where is Thy Sting is not really an elseworlds, but I think I preferred that as well.

I actually found Red Son to be mostly mediocre. Fun, entertaining, but nothing more than that.

[SuperStar]

One year DC made all the annuals Elseworlds and there were some sweet stories in there. One of my favorites involved the Kryptonians bringing their entire civilization to Earth and Superman being the first to be born here. Batman is a terrorist who is fighting against them and humans are slaves. Superman joins Batman and wears a mask. I'm also kinda partial to it now because I found out one of my profs inked it.

Those annuals had some kick ass Batman stories too. Batman and the Joker as pirates and a Catwoman one where she was a werecat kinda thing. DC needs to re-release those.

[Green Lantern wannabe]

They had the part where a Green Lantern, presumably Abin Sur, crashed and died on Earth, and they got his ring and lantern. But any fan of the DCU knows that, when a Green Lantern dies, his ring automatically seek out a new person, and, in any case, the Guardians on Oa would never let such a powerful item go astray - they did fight a war of thousands of years to contain magic, after all.

Still, Red Son remains a good story.

[niall mc cann]

I definitely understand what you're saying, but I must disagree.

I take pretty much the exact opposite view -- there should be nothing so innate about Kal-El that he would always become Superman in the end. Like someone said in RS, had the rocket entered Earth orbit six hours earlier he would have been a very different person.

This is what annoyed me about the endings to JLA: The Nail and (even more so) Superman: The Dark Side -- no matter what the circumstances of his upbringing, by the end of the story he's Superman, the greatest force for good ever created.

And if his nature is so deeply ingrained, what's the point of Elseworlds stories involving him? We all know how it's going to end...

See, i don't disagree with any of that. i don't have a problem with a bad guy superman, and that's basically what Red Son was; my problem is that i thought the idea of a good guy Superman who incedentally was a communist was inspired, much more interesting, and i was really looking forward to reading it.

A Superman elseworld where supes starts out evil or grim and in the end just becomes superman is cliched, no doubt. An elseworld where superman starts out the same earnest, committed, idealistic hero he's always been but with a set of values incompatible with the values we know he holds dearest, and how he goes on to approach the world as a result is much more interesting to me.

[Candyland_Assassin]

I really love how they take a new spin on every character they use.

"True Brit" in comparisson, was terrible. I don't even think I finished reading it it was so bad.