If ghosts *did* exist. . .

[Dreadstar]

. . . then what *exactly* would you think they were? And why?

And don't just say "souls," substituting one ephemeral concept for another. That is: OK then, what's a "soul?"

Secondly: Why?

I mean if ghosts exist, then why is that dumb bastard spending eternity walking around the top of the catwalk of a defunct lighthouse overlooking Thunder Bay on Lake Huron? Wouldn't you rather be in Tahiti or Cote de Azure?

Remember, this thread ASSUMES that ghosts are real. This hypothetical is a necessary suspension of disbelief for the discussion. In other words, you start with accepting the premise and go from there.

[Typo Lad]

Vell you zee, vhat ze layman calls "ghosts" are aktually ze result of a weakening in ze trans-temporal fabric. Ze exaxt cause of zis is unknowen, but it causes "replays" of past events at zertain locations.

Ze zeory is that it is possible to have "ghosts" of futurte events as vell.

[Shellhead]

Okay, playing along as an atheist who likes horror stories.

I like the idea of ghosts as the psychic residue of an emotionally-charged death, like a murder or suicide. The ghost itself is like a holographic recording, with no actual sentience, playing itself again and again, especially in the presence of somebody with a certain resonance... maybe similar personality or just sensitive like an artist or writer.

[Dreadstar]

Ze zeory is that it is possible to have "ghosts" of futurte events as vell.

How come I've never seen a ghost with a rocket-pack and a raygun then?

[Typo Lad]

How come I've never seen a ghost with a rocket-pack and a raygun then?

Ze zeory iz that you're just an unlucky putz.

[DarkBlade]

Depends. Basically it comes down to folks who didn't make a clean break of it, for one reason or another. Sometimes that reason is they still have things they have to do and CAN do, or have help getting done. Mind you, such things aren't ALWAYS good...

[Slam_Bradley]

Considered for your approval, the Ghost. A physical manifestation of our psychic torment, impressed upon the landscape in moments of extreme horror. For those who are sensitive enough to see, it provides a brief glimpse in to...The Twilight Zone.

[DarkBlade]

Shell: Ah, there's that.. that's more residue though, than an actual something/one still hangin' round.

[Dreadstar]

I like the idea of ghosts as the psychic residue of an emotionally-charged death, like a murder or suicide. The ghost itself is like a holographic recording, with no actual sentience, playing itself again and again, especially in the presence of somebody with a certain resonance... maybe similar personality or just sensitive like an artist or writer.

Interesting. But then wouldn't that mean that all ghosts are then misfortunate? that would preclude any "happy" ghosts, wouldn't it? Also, wouldn't that sort of imply that the ghosts are tied to the place of death? What about a ghost that is murdered in New York and haunts a place in Ohio?

[Goliath]

I currently am employed at a place where alot of people have died. Most of natural causes, stroke, heart attack, old age, and I've seen my share of ghosts. I am a very spiritual person and you can feel them when they're around. Some are guardian spirits, staying to watch over a place that they loved, people they cared about, others died in pain and have difficulty letting go of that moment. Others, just don't want to move on, least not yet (there was a guard that died of a heart attack on duty, he made patrols nearly every night until just recently when the building he patrolled was finally torn down) They just are; injustice, torment, sentiment, why do we bury the dead and honor their lives? Because we loved them.

[Dreadstar]

If it's a psychic residue or psychic imprint or psychic 8-track-playback, then it begs the question:

What exactly is the "physical" manifestation? How do they manifest? Are we talking about resonant sub-atomic strings or something?

[J Dog]

They'd leave me the Hell alone!

There's nothing these guys need from ME!

[Dreadstar]

They'd leave me the Hell alone!

There's nothing these guys need from ME!

How do you know they don't require you for sustenance?

[Goliath]

actually, an analysis of all ghostly occurances indicates one unifying trait, the EM spectrum. Light, heat, electronic white noise, radio waves, television signals. It's all the EM spectrum. I can't tell you how they cause the changes, but I can tell you it's the changes that we see as manifestations, even the movement of objects can be explained to some extent by tempreture changes, a function of infrared radiation also known as heat, in the air creating hot and cold spots creating airflow.

(Edit: sorry bout the jumbled thoughts, typo)

[Typo Lad]

I can't tell you how they do it, but I can that's how they do it,

Hnh?

You makey my head hurt.

[J Dog]

How do you know they don't require you for sustenance?
Well, I don't have much, and I have problems at night... involving snoring.

[Dreadstar]

actually, an analysis of all ghostly occurances indicates one unifying trait, the EM spectrum. Light, heat, electronic white noise, radio waves, television signals. It's all the EM spectrum. I can't tell you how they do it, but I can that's how they do it, even the movement of objects can be explained to some extent by tempreture changes, a function of infrared radiation also known as heat, in the air creating hot and cold spots creating airflow.

OK, that's a start. It's not at all far-fetched. (it would be nice to see some empirical data to go with the assertion, to further discussion, though) BTW, "heat" is not, in and of itself a member of the EM spectrum.

So, how does one go about "imprinting" an EM signature on a locality? EM radiation is fleeting. In other words, you can't imbue a rock with a repeating TV signal.

[DarkBlade]

Erk.. my knowledge of physics is veeeery limited, especially once you get to the subatomic level of things. My reply is somewhat vauge, but I can't get more specific than energy related.

[Dreadstar]

Erk.. my knowledge of physics is veeeery limited, especially once you get to the subatomic level of things. My reply is somewhat vauge, but I can't get more specific than energy related.


You don't have to be specific, nor even correct.

We're making it up and testing it out as we go along here.

Hell, as far as I know, it could be the work of fairies taking holographic images of the decedent and displaying it as a form of art.


... I kind of like that idea, there's a short story in there somewhere.

[Wesley Dodds]

OK, although a zealous athiest and sceptic, I will accept the idea that ghosts exist, the same way I accept every month that getting bitten by a radioactive spider can give you awesome powers.

The first question I'd want answered is how these ghosts work. Do they have a material existence, or is their existence somehow metaphysical? Do they have substance?

If they had no material existence, my philosophical materialism would self-destruct and I would immediately take Pascal's wager. It would indicate that another existence is possible after death.

If they had a material existence, I would want to know the mechanism by which they existed, which would tell us whether they were just reactions to powerful emotions (which is a pretty silly idea, really) or the actual souls of dead people. In the event of souls, Pascal's wager.

[DarkBlade]

You don't have to be specific, nor even correct.

We're making it up and testing it out as we go along here.

Hell, as far as I know, it could be the work of fairies taking holographic images of the decedent and displaying it as a form of art.


... I kind of like that idea, there's a short story in there somewhere.
... Decedent, or deceased?

I like the idea too, for a story. I don't think it's -accurate-, but then the Fey get up to some stuff... one never knows.

[Dreadstar]

The first question I'd want answered is how these ghosts work. Do they have a material existence, or is their existence somehow metaphysical? Do they have substance?

...

If they had a material existence, I would want to know the mechanism by which they existed, which would tell us whether they were just reactions to powerful emotions (which is a pretty silly idea, really) or the actual souls of dead people. In the event of souls, Pascal's wager.

So, what's your opinion? How do they work? What's the physical/material component? If metaphysical, how do they bridge a secondary existence?

And finally, if it's a soul, then what's a soul?

[Dreadstar]

... Decedent, or deceased?

Either/or. Same thing.

[Wesley Dodds]

So, what's your opinion? How do they work? What's the physical/material component? If metaphysical, how do they bridge a secondary existence?


I don't believe in ghosts, so it's all hypothetical. I can't speculate because I don't think it's possible.

There's also a 3rd scenario, where a physical reaction seems to have no material cause.

And finally, if it's a soul, then what's a soul?

I'm happy with just saying "personality".

[Dreadstar]

. . . it's all hypothetical

Duh.

What was your first clue?

[DarkBlade]

*L* I think Wes has been thrown off by a couple of us who aren't having to reach for the hypothetical.

[Dreadstar]

Enh, I was probably being to hard in reply.

I was just more or less saying:

"SO? Speculate, then!"

[GremlinClr]

Being a DC whore I like the idea of multiple dimensions, where perhaps other people kind of "bleed through" the fabric of reality sometimes. Not enough to do anything, and they're not aware they do it, but enough to leave an impression over here. Just as perhaps we sometimes bleed through to their side.

[Erebus]

I know this theory, and it's like, all humans have a sort of electro-magnetic aura surrounding them. If your feeling a really strong emotion, or if your meditaitng or something, your aura becomes bigger. Some scientists believe that when a person feels a really strong feeling before they die (es.-fear, anger, sadness), there sura sort of leaves a "blue-print" of itself, instead of fading out when you die.

[Donald M.]

If ghosts were really I would so totally become a Ghostbuster. The uniforms rock and those proton packs are the shizzle fo' rizzle!

[Dreadstar]

I know this theory, and it's like, all humans have a sort of electro-magnetic aura surrounding them. If your feeling a really strong emotion, or if your meditaitng or something, your aura becomes bigger. Some scientists believe that when a person feels a really strong feeling before they die (es.-fear, anger, sadness), there sura sort of leaves a "blue-print" of itself, instead of fading out when you die.

But once again, EM radiation is not static (static as in unchaging or set in one place). Something has to emit it, and once EM is emitted it doesn't hang around. So how do you imprint something to become a constant emitter?

[Dreadstar]

If ghosts were really I would so totally become a Ghostbuster. The uniforms rock and those proton packs are the shizzle fo' rizzle!


Just be careful not to cross the streams!

Wouldn't want total protonic reversal, now would you?.

[StoneGold]

Just be careful not to cross the streams!

Wouldn't want total protonic reversal, now would you?.
Don't mess with me. I'm a scientist.

[Fenris]

I rather like Typo's transtemporal optical illusion theory (though I don't agree that future ghosts would necessarily be implied by it.)

But, since he's already taken that one: I'll say that they're quirks of racial memory. The entire past experience of the human race is accessible, in small and uncontrolled ways; and these occaisionally manifest in the form of ghosts.

As such, they're nonphysical, since they exist entirely in the mind of the person seeing the ghost. (Like any other memory.) But they are nonetheless genuine memories of real people.

õ
I believed in ghosts when I was yunger!

[Typo Lad]

I rather like Typo's transtemporal optical illusion theory

Vhen I uze der voice it's Doktor Typo, hokay?

(though I don't agree that future ghosts would necessarily be implied by it.)


Yes vell, zis is to be expected. After all, you are vell known as a putz, ja?

[Dreadstar]

I rather like Typo's transtemporal optical illusion theory (though I don't agree that future ghosts would necessarily be implied by it.)

But, since he's already taken that one: I'll say that they're quirks of racial memory. The entire past experience of the human race is accessible, in small and uncontrolled ways; and these occaisionally manifest in the form of ghosts.

As such, they're nonphysical, since they exist entirely in the mind of the person seeing the ghost. (Like any other memory.) But they are nonetheless genuine memories of real people.

Oooooo!

Interesting!

But then wouldn't there have to be a physical trigger of some sort, especially if the "manifestation" keeps occuring in the same place to different people?

[GremlinClr]

I rather like Typo's transtemporal optical illusion theory (though I don't agree that future ghosts would necessarily be implied by it.)

But, since he's already taken that one: I'll say that they're quirks of racial memory. The entire past experience of the human race is accessible, in small and uncontrolled ways; and these occaisionally manifest in the form of ghosts.

As such, they're nonphysical, since they exist entirely in the mind of the person seeing the ghost. (Like any other memory.) But they are nonetheless genuine memories of real people.

õ
I believed in ghosts when I was yunger!

Is that kinda like the collective unconscious?

[Xero Kaiser]

I mean if ghosts exist, then why is that dumb bastard spending eternity walking around the top of the catwalk of a defunct lighthouse overlooking Thunder Bay on Lake Huron? Wouldn't you rather be in Tahiti or Cote de Azure?

it doesn't seem like ghosts have any kind of awareness. they don't know that they're dead, they don't know that you're there or even that the surroundings have changed. I remember reading about an idea that ghosts don't really walk through walls, but they're walking down a hall/path that used to be there. we can't see the path because it's been rebuilt or whatever, but it's still there to the ghost.

so, I have to go with the idea that ghosts are more like imprints of some kind rather than a person's soul. it would explain why ghosts don't react to anything and replay the same things over and over.

as for ghosts being reactions to powerful emotions like fear, wouldn't that mean all ghosts would be running for their lives or screaming or whatever? it doesn't seem to explain why a lot of ghosts just.....wander around. if anything it seems like emotion's something most ghosts lack

[Slam_Bradley]

Just be careful not to cross the streams!

Wouldn't want total protonic reversal, now would you?.


It would be...bad!

[Fenris]

Vhen I uze der voice it's Doktor Typo, hokay?

Doktor Typo should be an SSSS villain. Your evil twin!


Yes vell, zis is to be expected. After all, you are vell known as a putz, ja?

You're just mad that I so brilliantly disproved your argument, herr doktor!

õ
So there!

[Fenris]

Oooooo!

Interesting!

Aw, thank you!

But then wouldn't there have to be a physical trigger of some sort, especially if the "manifestation" keeps occuring in the same place to different people?

I guess. We know that conventional memories can be triggered by physical objects and locations; maybe racial memories are the same way.

õ
Which is to say, it's not a requirement, but a common feature!

[Typo Lad]

Doktor Typo should be an SSSS villain. Your evil twin!

Vhas is this SSSS? Is zis like the SSoSS?

Verndamnt SSoSS! I shall prove zey exist one day. Und zhen, the vorld vill be MINE!

You're just mad that I so brilliantly disproved your argument, herr doktor!

Disprove, shmisprove. All is theory.

[Fenris]

Is that kinda like the collective unconscious?

As I understand it (not too well) racial memory is a hypothetical part of the broader collective unconscious.

The CU is simply the unconscious mental "architecture" that every human being shares in common. Stuff like the fact that infants have an instinctive fear of the dark, for example; or the way that we can process other humans' expressions, without even thinking about it.

Racial memory is a lot less plausible. It's the theory that we actually inherit memories genetically from our ancestors. I don't buy it (though it would explain ghosts, perhaps; and give an alternate explanation for the past-life recollections that some people have.)

But it's a fun theory.

õ
If that's your idea of fun!

[Fenris]

Vhas is this SSSS? Is zis like the SSoSS?

I can never remember whether the "of" is included in the acronym or not.


Verndamnt SSoSS! I shall prove zey exist one day. Und zhen, the vorld vill be MINE!

Yeah, I saw a story in the J Street Enquirer about how they brought JFK back to life.

As their sex slave.

With Madonna's brain.

I'm sure you'll prove their existence any day now.



Disprove, shmisprove. All is theory.

That's what I tell the judge, but he never seems to buy it.

õ
He's not very philosophical!

[DarkBlade]

it doesn't seem like ghosts have any kind of awareness. they don't know that they're dead, they don't know that you're there or even that the surroundings have changed. I remember reading about an idea that ghosts don't really walk through walls, but they're walking down a hall/path that used to be there. we can't see the path because it's been rebuilt or whatever, but it's still there to the ghost.

Some cases, yeah, but not always.

so, I have to go with the idea that ghosts are more like imprints of some kind rather than a person's soul. it would explain why ghosts don't react to anything and replay the same things over and over.

Or that they're mainly stuck in a loop. Somewhat similar to how some people have flashbacks.

[Birdcat]

I know I'm a bit late this, and I have trouble forming my thoughts into the correct words sometimes, so I'll try my best. Personally I have a few ideas about this subject.

The first deals with alternate realities. I remember reading a LOOONG time ago, this guy that suggest that there was another dimension/reality that mirrored our own. As time progressed from the 'beginning of everything', their reality/demension progressed the way it was supposed to. Ours however didn't for some reason. Something happened that just screwed the laws of physics/life/whatever up on this side of the looking glass. This is supposed to explain most if not all of the supernatural subjects in our world. That perhaps the space/time fabric was damaged on our side so we have problems with time and whatnot. So when someone see's a ghost they see a person from the past stuck in some kind of time loop that repeats at random intervals, or sometimes at regular intervals. Ships dissappear in the Bermuda Triangle because that area is heavily affected/damaged by this and random things can occur. Like ships slipping in an out of our time period to the point that they vanish or sink themselves from confusion. Bigfoot doesn't really exist here because the time/reality period he lives in sometimes overlaps ours. UFO's really are there but they're ships from the future or ships from alternate realities. I think the theory of this, is that between our reality and our 'sister' reality, there is a yin and yang, +/- thing going on. Where our universe is negative in nature.

Another theory I have is a more difficult for me to explain. Our thoughts/emotions/feelings are basically electrical impulses if I'm not mistaken. I think that perhaps during stressfull or emotional times those electrical impulses are very strong and perhaps leave something of a mark on the area where they occured. Then once a person dies, the electrical energy dissapated from the body. The more time passes once a person dies the harder it is to recuicitate (sp?) them because their electrical energy is dissapating more and more from the brain. The energy once gone from the body, is then drawn to these places where it left 'marks' behind, because its something familiar. Thus what we see when we see a ghost is the formation of that electrical energy into what it 'remembers'. Whether its a person, and how recognizable it is, or whether is a sound or a voice, and how strong this 'ghost' is depends on the person. Because every one's different, plus it would depend on how strong these electrical 'marks' were made at any given time.


Thats about the best I can do for now, I hope its understandable.

[Dreadstar]

I know I'm a bit late this, and I have trouble forming my thoughts into the correct words sometimes, so I'll try my best.

And nicely done, I might add.

The first deals with alternate realities. I remember reading a LOOONG time ago, this guy that suggest that there was another dimension/reality that mirrored our own. As time progressed from the 'beginning of everything', their reality/demension progressed the way it was supposed to. Ours however didn't for some reason. Something happened that just screwed the laws of physics/life/whatever up on this side of the looking glass. This is supposed to explain most if not all of the supernatural subjects in our world. That perhaps the space/time fabric was damaged on our side so we have problems with time and whatnot. So when someone see's a ghost they see a person from the past stuck in some kind of time loop that repeats at random intervals, or sometimes at regular intervals. Ships dissappear in the Bermuda Triangle because that area is heavily affected/damaged by this and random things can occur. Like ships slipping in an out of our time period to the point that they vanish or sink themselves from confusion. Bigfoot doesn't really exist here because the time/reality period he lives in sometimes overlaps ours. UFO's really are there but they're ships from the future or ships from alternate realities. I think the theory of this, is that between our reality and our 'sister' reality, there is a yin and yang, +/- thing going on. Where our universe is negative in nature.

The idea that our timeline isn't exactly a straight line and has curved places that loop and touch has had a few theoretical forays in the world of physics. I think I remember that if the curved time thought were true, then the "loops" might come very close to each other, perhaps close enough to touch. They couldn't occupy the same point, however. I suppose a tangental touching might allow one portion of the timeline to see the other. If we accept this hypothesis another question arises:

What is the nature of the 5th or 6th or whatever dimension that time resides and moves around in? To put it in inadequate three-dimensional terms, let us assume that the timeline is like a piece of string. Get yourself a nice piece of string, say a foot and a half ro 2 feet or so, and a few inches from one end, use a marker to place a dot or "point" on it. This will be the instance of your "recurring loop" that replays in time. Now do that. Loop the string over so that the "point" you marked lies on the rest of the string at some other point. It doesn't matter what other point, because we're trying to demonstrate that the lopp CAN move through time theoretically. To do that, all you have to do is grasp the string an inch or so on either side of the dot and move it up or down the rest of the string. Voila! Tangental interaction.

The reason I bring up some other dimension is that in order for this to work, we've reduced time to a 2-dimensional concept (the string) and added a third dimension (by looping). This suggests that time is constrained by or requires another dimension to have fluidity of this sort.

Fun, huh?

A further thought on the above suggestion is this:

The tangental interaction isn't a quirk in the nature of time, but rather a quirk of tangental universes/"dimensions". The best way I ever heard of it being reduced to visual terms was to view each possible universe as a single marble in a big infinite bag of marbles. Now you can *see* that the marbles interact with each other at some tangental point on the surface of each sphere. So obviously, if we could see the tangental point of the other marble from our marble that'd be a very interesting explanation for some of the phenomena of the unexplained. It doesn't however go anywhere NEAR explaining how somethings seems insubstantive (ghosts) and others seem quite "real" (UFOs and bigfoot). A more substantive visitation might require that the marbles not only touch tangentally, but actually overlap in places. That's the old comic book Howard the Duck/Man Thing swamp nexus kind of explanation (to put it simply).

That's usually where people file the Bermuda Triangle and occassionally flying saucers phenomena. The problem being, of course, if it's a nexus of possible permanent physical translocation (the Bermuda triangle) then why does it appear to be one-way? If you accept the theory, a lot of people have permanently translocated AWAY from us over the years. How come we don't have much evidence of anyone/thing permanently translocating *to* us?

[DarkBlade]

Perhaps the unsubstantial ones aren't quite touching, but are close enough to inferere. Kinda like when you're listening to the radio in the car, and you're just baaaaarely at the edge of where another station starts using the same dial number so you get the occasional bit of static or weird word clip, but not full out static or dueling stations that you'd get if you moved closer to the point of equilibrium between the two.

.. I hope that made sense.

[Jayna]

It has been my experience that places aren't haunted, people are. There are some people that see these things in places where there have never been any sign of that kind of activity before, and places that draw pwople who want to see them. People see what they want to see.

[Dreadstar]

Perhaps the unsubstantial ones aren't quite touching, but are close enough to inferere. Kinda like when you're listening to the radio in the car, and you're just baaaaarely at the edge of where another station starts using the same dial number so you get the occasional bit of static or weird word clip, but not full out static or dueling stations that you'd get if you moved closer to the point of equilibrium between the two.

.. I hope that made sense.


Pefect sense.

Now all you got to do is figure out why you keep hearing a faded Abba song over and over and over and over...

[Dreadstar]

It has been my experience that places aren't haunted, people are. There are some people that see these things in places where there have never been any sign of that kind of activity before, and places that draw pwople who want to see them. People see what they want to see.

Good to see you Jayna!

OK. If we accept that the only people who can see the manifestations are those who are uniquely attuned to seeing them, it still begs the question:

What do you suppose is the "form" of the manifestation? I mean, if it's external to the attuned person, then what mechanism in the environment anchors it to the environment? Even if it were internal to the attuned person, then there still has to be some sort of trigger related to the environment, else that person would be seeing anything and everything from everywhere all at once and without regard to their location. That would include the strong signal/weak signal explanation.

More simply, if people are being "drawn" to locations, then how are they drawn? And if "drawn," is there motive involved?

[Paradox]

Typo Lad sees me blink in:

Vhas is this SSSS? Is zis like the SSoSS?

Verndamnt SSoSS! I shall prove zey exist one day.

No you won't. What part of "Secret" don't you understand? Damned foreigners!

Who? Me? I'm...uh, nobody. ;)

[DarkBlade]

To continue the frequency idea, perhaps due to resonating at similar frequencies? Or opposite ends of the same wave?

[Birdcat]

That's usually where people file the Bermuda Triangle and occassionally flying saucers phenomena. The problem being, of course, if it's a nexus of possible permanent physical translocation (the Bermuda triangle) then why does it appear to be one-way? If you accept the theory, a lot of people have permanently translocated AWAY from us over the years. How come we don't have much evidence of anyone/thing permanently translocating *to* us?

Perhaps it has to do with awareness. When you see these pictures or video of bigfoot, they seem aware of our presence and know what we are. Perhaps they (in refrence to anyone on 'the other side', not just bigfoot) know better than to stay too long in our world, or how to get back to ours. While we tend to not understand such things or even realize when they're taking place, we end up stuck over there. Or perhaps when such instances 'end', people from our side will get stuck in between and end up on neither side but lost in the middle.

For instance, you'll see a bigfoot or UFO appear and take some notice of us. But instead of freaking out and going haywire, they tend to stay on the path they were on before. Now when a plane, boat, or person veers into their world, its something they don't understand and they begin to panick. Running all over the place in confusion tripping over themselves. And when the time/reality fold ends, they aren't where they need to be in order to come back to us. So they're either stuck on the other side, or worse yet, they get stuck in some kind of extra dimension between the two.

It could be said that beings from this other place are aware because they're more advanced than we are. That these UFO's aren't really aliens, but and advanced version of us. Going back to the +/- reality theory, they advanced the way they were supposed to, without all the troubles we ran into. And we being negative in nature fell behind. So they're now smart enough to know and understand what we are.

[Typo Lad]

No you won't. What part of "Secret" don't you understand? Damned foreigners!

Who? Me? I'm...uh, nobody. ;)

FAIRY GODPARENTS!

[J Dog]

Well, I think I can get interference with a crystal radio.

http://www.hobbytech.com/crystalradio/1rear.jpg

I think that ghosts are in radio waves and if they are, you'll hear them with these puppies.

[Dreadstar]

To continue the frequency idea, perhaps due to resonating at similar frequencies? Or opposite ends of the same wave?

They're stuck in a loop because they have the same frequency as what? Their surroundings, maybe?

Opposite ends? Hmmmmm... If you turn on a beam of light and turn it off again, it will have a beginning and an end, sort of. The leading edge and the trailing edge. But the waveform continues on until something stops its progress. OR! reflects it elswhere. (which is actually continuing on)

So perhaps we have a reflected waveform? A person's EM signature/image/thumbprint being reflected by some environmental phenomena?, like a flashlight between two mirrors or something?

[Dreadstar]

Perhaps it has to do with awareness. When you see these pictures or video of bigfoot, they seem aware of our presence and know what we are. Perhaps they (in refrence to anyone on 'the other side', not just bigfoot) know better than to stay too long in our world, or how to get back to ours. While we tend to not understand such things or even realize when they're taking place, we end up stuck over there. Or perhaps when such instances 'end', people from our side will get stuck in between and end up on neither side but lost in the middle.

For instance, you'll see a bigfoot or UFO appear and take some notice of us. But instead of freaking out and going haywire, they tend to stay on the path they were on before. Now when a plane, boat, or person veers into their world, its something they don't understand and they begin to panick. Running all over the place in confusion tripping over themselves. And when the time/reality fold ends, they aren't where they need to be in order to come back to us. So they're either stuck on the other side, or worse yet, they get stuck in some kind of extra dimension between the two.

It could be said that beings from this other place are aware because they're more advanced than we are. That these UFO's aren't really aliens, but and advanced version of us. Going back to the +/- reality theory, they advanced the way they were supposed to, without all the troubles we ran into. And we being negative in nature fell behind. So they're now smart enough to know and understand what we are.

Possibly, I guess. See the problem with this is that it assumes a small finite number of alternate realities interacting with our own. I say that because you've mentioned that all the other "from there to here" translocators are able to find their way back, or at least the vast majority of them. And yet the vast majority of us get lost (indeed, all). If we had an infinite interaction, we'd eventually come across one such reality that was like us, and unable to find their way home. Very likely MANY such. So if you go into the finite interaction, you assume that there are indeed only a few places that can interact with our "nexus" and each and every one of those places are superior to our negative or broken reality. In fact, if you drew the finite down to its logical minimum, you'd have the bigfoots (bigfeet?) flying the UFOs. Or at the very least the bigfeets are more advanced versions of us.

[Dreadstar]

I think that ghosts are in radio waves and if they are, you'll hear them with these puppies.

You're not the first to conjecture the possibility.

Now:

How do you suppose they got there? In the radio waves, I mean.

[J Dog]

You're not the first to conjecture the possibility.

Now:

How do you suppose they got there? In the radio waves, I mean.
Ahem. I shall explain.

When people die, their spirits leave their bodies in a journey to the netherworlds of Heaven & Hell (well all go to Heaven at first). Along the way, their spirits enter various frequencies, including radio waves. This may sound stupid, but I believe that when a mass disaster with many fatalites instantly occur, all the radio frequencies are scrambled.

Stupid? Yes. But possible.

[Dreadstar]

Ahem. I shall explain.

When people die, their spirits leave their bodies in a journey to the netherworlds of Heaven & Hell (well all go to Heaven at first). Along the way, their spirits enter various frequencies, including radio waves. This may sound stupid, but I believe that when a mass disaster with many fatalites instantly occur, all the radio frequencies are scrambled.

Stupid? Yes. But possible.


Well, all but the "entering" a frequency bit. The spirit could become a radio wave, or perhaps have their particle components merge with existing EM, I suppose.

I could even see the release of death to be a catalyst for electrons (in the brain, say) reducing to a lower energy level and freeing up a vast quantity of EM particles, like photons. But surely these things would have been empirically measured by now. It's not like we don't have the tools to make minute readings of such things.

[Puma]

But, since he's already taken that one: I'll say that they're quirks of racial memory. The entire past experience of the human race is accessible, in small and uncontrolled ways; and these occaisionally manifest in the form of ghosts.

As such, they're nonphysical, since they exist entirely in the mind of the person seeing the ghost. (Like any other memory.) But they are nonetheless genuine memories of real people.



now this I can understand and relate to...only from personal experience, not of ghosts per se but something of a temporal timeslip I've experienced twice in my life.

[Tish-the-Scorpion]

Okay, playing along as an atheist who likes horror stories.

I like the idea of ghosts as the psychic residue of an emotionally-charged death, like a murder or suicide. The ghost itself is like a holographic recording, with no actual sentience, playing itself again and again, especially in the presence of somebody with a certain resonance... maybe similar personality or just sensitive like an artist or writer.
i had strong thoughts about this theory when i was younger,but its doesn't explain all of the paranormal phenomina.so i came to the conclusion that this idea is kinda flawed but still interesting.

[Jayna]

external[/i] to the attuned person, then what mechanism in the environment anchors it to the environment? Even if it were internal to the attuned person, then there still has to be some sort of trigger related to the environment, else that person would be seeing anything and everything from everywhere all at once and without regard to their location. That would include the strong signal/weak signal explanation.

More simply, if people are being "drawn" to locations, then how are they drawn? And if "drawn," is there motive involved?


I don't believe that what most people call ghosts are the spirits of the dead. I think they are either manifestations of what the person seeing them desperately wants to see. In the case of large numbers of people seeing the same thing at the same time, it's mass hysteria. I think the human mind has an almost infinite capacity for self-delusion & that's what ghost sightings are.

[CHEYENNE-BLACKBIRD]

i had strong thoughts about this theory when i was younger,but its doesn't explain all of the paranormal phenomina.so i came to the conclusion that this idea is kinda flawed but still interesting.i agree.......i had that same explanation when i was younger. but when i got older i realized it doesn't explain cases of "interactive" ghosts and poltergeist.but i do agree that its a interesting theory.

[CHEYENNE-BLACKBIRD]

I don't believe that what most people call ghosts are the spirits of the dead. I think they are either manifestations of what the person seeing them desperately wants to see. In the case of large numbers of people seeing the same thing at the same time, it's mass hysteria. I think the human mind has an almost infinite capacity for self-delusion & that's what ghost sightings are.thats WAAAYY to narrow of a explanation.and i don't think it answers everything.

[Jayna]

thats WAAAYY to narrow of a explanation.and i don't think it answers everything.

Well, I was under the impression that I was answering a direct question with my opinion on the matter. I never had any intention of answering "everything" as I don't think anyone will get those answers in life.

[CHEYENNE-BLACKBIRD]

Well, I was under the impression that I was answering a direct question with my opinion on the matter. I never had any intention of answering "everything" as I don't think anyone will get those answers in life.
of course not but with the logic you was using you might as well say air doesn't exist,and we're really not breathing,and its just a figment of our imagination.

[Atomic Mongoose]

A very small percentage of the population claims to have at some point encountered a "ghost".

A very small percentage of the population claims to have at some point demonstrated psychic abilities (re: ESP).

Maybe the two concepts are the same thing?

Someone earlier brought up the theory that ghosts are like a glitch in the temporal fabric of a specific physical area... like the geographic location is a CD, the events that took place in that location are a song burned to the CD, and the ghosts' manifestation is like when a CD skips backward and loops over a specific verse of the song.

What if there are no such things as ghosts... just people who are capable of telemetry (being able to "see" the past and/or future of a specific place or object)??? Like all normal people "listen to the CD" (the world) with nothing but a Play button, where telemetrics have their own Rewind and Fastforward buttons.

[blackdragon6]

A very small percentage of the population claims to have at some point encountered a "ghost".

A very small percentage of the population claims to have at some point demonstrated psychic abilities (re: ESP).

Maybe the two concepts are the same thing?

Someone earlier brought up the theory that ghosts are like a glitch in the temporal fabric of a specific physical area... like the geographic location is a CD, the events that took place in that location are a song burned to the CD, and the ghosts' manifestation is like when a CD skips backward and loops over a specific verse of the song.

What if there are no such things as ghosts... just people who are capable of telemetry (being able to "see" the past and/or future of a specific place or object)??? Like all normal people "listen to the CD" (the world) with nothing but a Play button, where telemetrics have their own Rewind and Fastforward buttons.plausible but like cheyenne said how does it includes poltergeist and other entitys that can be "physical"?

[Solaris]

. . . then what *exactly* would you think they were? And why?

And don't just say "souls," substituting one ephemeral concept for another. That is: OK then, what's a "soul?"

Secondly: Why?

I mean if ghosts exist, then why is that dumb bastard spending eternity walking around the top of the catwalk of a defunct lighthouse overlooking Thunder Bay on Lake Huron? Wouldn't you rather be in Tahiti or Cote de Azure?

Remember, this thread ASSUMES that ghosts are real. This hypothetical is a necessary suspension of disbelief for the discussion. In other words, you start with accepting the premise and go from there.

I think, in most cases, it's simply a sort of "vibrational recording" of someone who's emotions at the time were so strong they imprinted on a location.

I know of people who've said they talked to dead relatives or friends, either awake or in a dream... but that was always sort of a "wrapping things up" kind of thing, and didn't repeat more than a time or two at most.

[Jayna]

of course not but with the logic you was using you might as well say air doesn't exist,and we're really not breathing,and its just a figment of our imagination.


Obviously this is one of those subjects where one's personal beliefs aren't going to be shaken by anyone else's opinions. I wasn't trying to convince you of my position, only state it for what it was worth. Comparing the existance of ghosts to air is a bit of a stretch considering that there is hard scientific evidence that air exists. Every scientific study done under controlled conditions have failed to prove the existance of all forms of psychic phenomena up to this point. As for my personal reasons for disbelief, having been deeply involved in the occult for many years, I know just how easily manipulated people are.

[The Dosadi Experiment]

I think tht if they were real, that the phenomenon is one connected to us as people.

Psychic residue, or some sort of residual energy on a field that lies beyond our direct line of sight. Traces left on a level that we cannot normally cannot observe using various techniques.

Now ghosts that manifest themselves those could just be a type of interaction between who we are, as living beings, and that psychic residue. We're emitting waves, unconciously, that react on that particular level that lies beyond our comprehension with whatever is imprinted on that level at a certain place.

Now not everybody throws waves or energy in a certain manner that generates the reaction. So it takes a certain group or person to create the appriopriate chain of events that will lead to the visual manifestation of a ghost, that activates the residual psychic energy on that level.

[The Dosadi Experiment]

I know of people who've said they talked to dead relatives or friends, either awake or in a dream... but that was always sort of a "wrapping things up" kind of thing, and didn't repeat more than a time or two at most.

The "talking to dead people in a lucid dream"-thing is something that happened to me regularly, but I refuse to believe that I was actually talking to a dead person at the time.

That's more of a subconscious reaction to a need. You're manifesting a puppet of a dead person created from your memories and knowledge of that person, and your subconscious is merely the puppeteer moving the puppet.
Whatever it tells you, is just your mind telling you what you think you want to hear coming from that person's mouth.

[Tish-the-Scorpion]

As for my personal reasons for disbelief, having been deeply involved in the occult for many years, I know just how easily manipulated people are.this doesn't really mean anything, it just mean you like to dress up in a robe and go in your moms back yard and draw a pentagram.and stick fire crackers up a black cats ass and claimed the devil and the quija board made you do it........uh somehow i don't see the connection to ghosts :p

[Dreadstar]

this doesn't really mean anything, it just mean you like to dress up in a robe and go in your moms back yard and draw a pentagram.and stick fire crackers up a black cats ass and claimed the devil and the quija board made you do it........uh somehow i don't see the connection to ghosts :p

Now, now, now. She drawing a parallel between two paranormal concepts, and stating her conclusion.

Perfectly fine.

[Dreadstar]

I don't believe that what most people call ghosts are the spirits of the dead. I think they are either manifestations of what the person seeing them desperately wants to see. In the case of large numbers of people seeing the same thing at the same time, it's mass hysteria. I think the human mind has an almost infinite capacity for self-delusion & that's what ghost sightings are.

So it's delusion?

See, the the necessary hypothesis was that they're real.

What then?

[Dreadstar]

A very small percentage of the population claims to have at some point encountered a "ghost".

A very small percentage of the population claims to have at some point demonstrated psychic abilities (re: ESP).

Maybe the two concepts are the same thing?

What if they are? What kind of theory can you present to fit that particular hypothesis?

Someone earlier brought up the theory that ghosts are like a glitch in the temporal fabric of a specific physical area... like the geographic location is a CD, the events that took place in that location are a song burned to the CD, and the ghosts' manifestation is like when a CD skips backward and loops over a specific verse of the song.

Problem being, why is it so sporadic? And what would be the mechanism to the the phenomena to that particular locale?

What if there are no such things as ghosts... just people who are capable of telemetry (being able to "see" the past and/or future of a specific place or object)??? Like all normal people "listen to the CD" (the world) with nothing but a Play button, where telemetrics have their own Rewind and Fastforward buttons.

So then, why is it selective? Why can't they do it anytime, anywhere? What's the trigger?

[Dreadstar]

I think, in most cases, it's simply a sort of "vibrational recording" of someone who's emotions at the time were so strong they imprinted on a location.

I know of people who've said they talked to dead relatives or friends, either awake or in a dream... but that was always sort of a "wrapping things up" kind of thing, and didn't repeat more than a time or two at most.

Imprinted how? If it's physical, wouldn't it be measurable? If it's not physical, but rather meta-physical, then what's the physical mechanism that keeps it anchored and/or triggers it at a specific time?

[Dreadstar]

Psychic residue, or some sort of residual energy on a field that lies beyond our direct line of sight. Traces left on a level that we cannot normally cannot observe using various techniques.

Now ghosts that manifest themselves those could just be a type of interaction between who we are, as living beings, and that psychic residue. We're emitting waves, unconciously, that react on that particular level that lies beyond our comprehension with whatever is imprinted on that level at a certain place.

Now not everybody throws waves or energy in a certain manner that generates the reaction. So it takes a certain group or person to create the appriopriate chain of events that will lead to the visual manifestation of a ghost, that activates the residual psychic energy on that level.

OK, that's a thought. Very nice. Yet, wouldn't there necessarily have to be some sort of translation from the "unseen field" to the "seen" or physical world?

Perhaps subatomic particles energized by the emission from the "unseen?"

[Jayna]

So it's delusion?

See, the the necessary hypothesis was that they're real.

What then?

My point is that they are as real as you want/need them to be.

[CHEYENNE-BLACKBIRD]

My point is that they are as real as you want/need them to be.cause i'm sure random people who see ghosts REALLY want to see them at complete randome time and places.i'm sorry but thats boderline insulting,and condecending and over simplifying.theoreticaly speaking i'm walking down the street and a ghost just pass me by so its my fault because thats what i wanted to see at the time? wich is weired cause i highly doubt ghosts would be on my mind,as a matter of fact that would be the furthest thing from my mined at the time.

[CHEYENNE-BLACKBIRD]

My point is that they are as real as you want/need them to be.
with all do respect thats not what the thread starter is talking about.