Sharia law a no go in Ontario...

[estee]

After considerable protests by women's groups and several female MPP's giving their thumbs down, the Premier of Ontario, Dalton McGuinty put the kibosh on Islamic law used in arbitration for divorce and other civil matters...

Is this a good idea? Does it show Canadians are racists or uninformed of what sharia laws means?

Discuss...

Here's a link... (http://www.thestar.com/NASApp/cs/ContentServer?pagename=thestar/Layout/Article_Type1&call_pageid=971358637177&c=Article&cid=1126561810696&DPL=IvsNDS%2f7ChAX&tacodalogin=yes)

[Dreadstar]

I don't know what Canada's stand on separation of church and state is, but I personally don't like the idea of anything "religious-based" having an impact on legal proceedings.

I don't have much trouble with it if both parties agree to it, though, but it should be done and over with PRIOR to the legal proceedings. Hey, if they *both* want to make decisions on divorce and custody based on sharia laws, go to it.

The fun, of course, arises when one of them decides that sharia gives them the shitty end of the stick and doesn't sign the final "religious-based" agreement and abandons the process in lieu of the LEGAL one instead.

[Typo Lad]

Not just Islamic Law, but in turn all religious law, such as Bet Dins (Rabbinic Courts).

This means that if a Jewish couple wants to get divorced, they basically can't.

[estee]

Oh I'm sure that sharia law will still be used in arbitration, but its not binding or recognised by the government.

[Dreadstar]

Oh I'm sure that sharia law will still be used in arbitration, but its not binding or recognised by the government.

Exactly.

The thing is, as with most all arbitrations, the parties must agree to the final position. That position can then be placed before a judge and both parties can make it legal.

It's basically what I did for my divorce. We hacked it all out, wrote it all down, signed our intent and handed it to the judge. The judge asked us each in turn if we agreed to the arbitration as signed, we each said that we did, he turned us over to the clerk and said: "Next case."

I don't think it would have mattered if the arbitration was secular, non-secular, Martian or random roll-the-dice for stuff, as long as we both agreed.

[DarkBlade]

I'm confused Mordechai.. why can't they? Go do it as you're supposed to accoding to Jewish law, and then go to the courts and just file it as "we worked it out, no arguin lawyers or taking up your time, here's whats up."

Or am I missing something here?

[Typo Lad]

I'm confused Mordechai.. why can't they? Go do it as you're supposed to accoding to Jewish law, and then go to the courts and just file it as "we worked it out, no arguin lawyers or taking up your time, here's whats up."

Or am I missing something here?

Jewish Law, from my understanding, states that the Get (divorce document) must be mentioned in court.

It's weird. I know people who have Gets but not divorces and others who have divorces but not Gets. And we're talking multiple decades.

[Dreadstar]

"we worked it out, no arguin lawyers or taking up your time, here's whats up."

And of course, someone comes along and puts what I'm trying to say much more succinctly, and in a single sentence.





...are you sure you're Solaris' daughter?

[Dreadstar]

Jewish Law, from my understanding, states that the Get (divorce document) must be mentioned in court.

It's weird. I know people who have Gets but not divorces and others who have divorces but not Gets. And we're talking multiple decades.

So? Just have the judge say something like: "I understand that both parties worked it out ahead of time. Do you, Rebecca/Frank, accept this Get as presented?"

[DarkBlade]

And of course, someone comes along and puts what I'm trying to say much more succinctly, and in a single sentence.

Thanks! ^_^ I manage it on occasion.


...are you sure you're Solaris' daughter?

BWAHA! Man, I'm surprised nobody poked their head in to see what I was laughing about... good thing I've got the lab door closed.

[Typo Lad]

So? Just have the judge say something like: "I understand that both parties worked it out ahead of time. Do you, Rebecca/Frank, accept this Get as presented?"

I guess you'd know more about divorce than I.

That wasn't a dig, in case anyone thinks I'm being Mr. Snark. It's an admission of lack of knowledge on my part and nothing else.

[Shellhead]

State of Florida recently ruled that a muslim could not pose for her driver's license photo while wearing a full chador. All you could see would be her eyes. I fully support that decision, and I am getting really impatient with islamic idiots.

[Dreadstar]

I guess you'd know more about divorce than I.

That wasn't a dig, in case anyone thinks I'm being Mr. Snark. It's an admission of lack of knowledge on my part and nothing else.


Oh, no problem. And I hope in your case it stays that way.

[Adam Crocker]

I support this move myself for reasons similar to what Dread has given. As I have said before a secular, pluralistic society needs to keep religion out of civil law in order to function fairly for all.

[DarkBlade]

I wonder how they do ID checks for Islamic women wearing a full chador on flights and stuff. My guess would be to take them to a private room with a female security and have her do the scan stuff and verify id there, since she'd be able to take it off if there aren't any men in the room, right?

Some places seem to screen off the photo area at DMV/BMVs, but not all do.

[Samurai]

Sanity has prevailed in Canada... I'm a bit surprised, actually. :)

[Typo Lad]

Sanity has prevailed in Canada... I'm a bit surprised, actually. :)

Discrimination against the religious is sanity?

[Adam Crocker]

Discrimination against the religious is sanity?

It's discriminating against religion to decide that civil law will not necessarily sanction religious law in solving family disputes and thus provincial law will continue to apply equally to Ontarians? :confused:

Sanity has prevailed in Canada... I'm a bit surprised, actually. :)

Watch it pal. I have a new generation chicken cannon, surplus bologna, and my trajectory is awfulllllly good.

[Samurai]

Discrimination against the religious is sanity?
Not instituting Sharia law is saving the religious (especially Muslim women) from discrimination!

[Typo Lad]

Not instituting Sharia law is saving the religious (especially Muslim women) from discrimination!

Is it?

Very well then.

I do know that it's going to cause huge problems with people who had a prenuptual agreement done by the RCA (or RCC in this case). Jewish law has odd prenup laws.

[Dreadstar]

I do know that it's going to cause huge problems with people who had a prenuptual agreement done by the RCA (or RCC in this case). Jewish law has odd prenup laws.

Maybe not as much as you think.

I mean, when it comes right down to it, it still just a contract. It'd be interesting to see if whatever religious clauses in that contract invalidated the whole. It might require a couple more clauses to close whatever hole is involved, perhaps.

I would be curious as to the legality of a clause like: Non-attendance at temple is grounds for divorce, for example.

[Typo Lad]

I would be curious as to the legality of a clause like: Non-attendance at temple is grounds for divorce, for example.

In fact, in traditional Jewish Law, a husband's unwillingness to pleasure his wife on demand is considered an instant divorce.

[Dreadstar]

In fact, in traditional Jewish Law, a husband's unwillingness to pleasure his wife on demand is considered an instant divorce.

Yeah, but is it reciprocal?

[Grazzt]

Yeah, but is it reciprocal?

Actually, and maybe Morts can confirm or correct this, but I remember hearing that by Jewish law a husband has to have sex with his wife a certain amount of the time or she has grounds for divorce. The amount of time increases in proportion to the amount of travelling and hard labour the husband has to do (I remember a sailor has to have sex every six months or she can dump him).

[Typo Lad]

Yeah, but is it reciprocal?

Nope! Sex is entirely the woman's domain and it is the duty of the husband to provide her with it. In fact there's an entire discussion in the Talmud about how many times per week a man is expected to pleasure his wife depending on what career he is in.

The only sexual related grounds that I know of which can be used by a man to demand a Get are if the wife will not go to the Mikveh. This is the Ritual Bath that a woman goes to 7 days after her period, and is required for cohabitation. He cannot force her to go, but she cannot force him to stay married to him if she will not. Refusal to dip is a common tool used by women who are in unhappy marriages.

[Dreadstar]

Actually, and maybe Morts can confirm or correct this, but I remember hearing that by Jewish law a husband has to have sex with his wife a certain amount of the time or she has grounds for divorce. The amount of time increases in proportion to the amount of travelling and hard labour the husband has to do (I remember a sailor has to have sex every six months or she can dump him).


Yes, but is it reciprocal?

[Dreadstar]

Nope!
Damn.


There goes the idea of trying to get one of those Israeli Special Forces gals to follow me home.

[Typo Lad]

Yes, but is it reciprocal?

As far as I know, no. Sex is entirely the woman's prerogative.

I suspect that this law was written specifically to prevent total domination by men who, by and large, held the fiscal and household powers.

Yes, it's a Rabbinic rule.

[estee]

State of Florida recently ruled that a muslim could not pose for her driver's license photo while wearing a full chador. All you could see would be her eyes. I fully support that decision, and I am getting really impatient with islamic idiots.



What I've always felt is that Islam needs prostitues. The men really shy away from that infidelity thing, which leaves them with all this pent up aggression, if they just went to a nice lady of the evening to get out the frustrations then everything would be okay....prostitutes...they are the key to world peace. ;)

[Shellhead]

What I've always felt is that Islam needs prostitues. The men really shy away from that infidelity thing, which leaves them with all this pent up aggression, if they just went to a nice lady of the evening to get out the frustrations then everything would be okay....prostitutes...they are the key to world peace. ;)

I've heard that there is some prostitution going on in the Mideast. They marry the woman in a brief but actual ceremony with witnesses at the whorehouse, get it on, and then the man divorces the prostitute afterwards. It's easy under islamic law, the man basically just needs to say the equivalent of "I break with thee" three times in front of witnesses.

[Typo Lad]

There was a movement a decade or so to bring back the concept of Concubine to the Jewish marriage.

There's also, allegedly, swinger parties in otherwise Orthodox communities. However, I've only heard these used to deirede other Jews and don't think they ahve any basis in fact. It's usually sued along the lines of "Oh they're not REALLY religious..."

[DarkBlade]

There was a movement a decade or so to bring back the concept of Concubine to the Jewish marriage.

Do what? How does/did that work?

[Typo Lad]

Do what? How does/did that work?

You have google at that lab, don't you?

Basically, a "second" wife, but who is not protected by a Kesuvah or any marriage laws, for those incconvenient times when you're not allowed to hav eintercourse with your wife.

A place in Brooklyn was "reffering" pilageshes, ala an escort service. They were shut down.

[Typo Lad]

Ooo...

http://globalyeshiva.com/groupee/forums/a/tpc/f/728100487/m/1021090951/r/9961051161

This is the only place online I can find that mentions it.

[Hoss]

You have google at that lab, don't you?


Did you mean to sound witchy or is this one of those written language not showing the true intent things?

[DarkBlade]

Actually, an insane number of things are filtered here. I'm at the point of not trying for some words.

Hrm. Though I actually CAN click on a few of the results for Jewish Concubine and get to the sites, intead of the block filter.

[Typo Lad]

Did you mean to sound witchy or is this one of those written language not showing the true intent things?

Witchy, butt out of love.

Platonic love, mind you.

Pleade don't hurt me Tadgh.

[DarkBlade]

Tadhg. The stem on the d goes next to the stem on the h. dh.

[Typo Lad]

Tadhg. The stem on the d goes next to the stem on the h. dh.

OH WHAT A BAD FRIEND I AM!

[DarkBlade]

Meh, it's on autorepeat. Honestly, that's how I finally managed to keep the spelling straight. Whoever assigned gaelic to the roman alphabet did a piss poor job of it.

[Phrozen]

I've heard that there is some prostitution going on in the Mideast. They marry the woman in a brief but actual ceremony with witnesses at the whorehouse, get it on, and then the man divorces the prostitute afterwards. It's easy under islamic law, the man basically just needs to say the equivalent of "I break with thee" three times in front of witnesses.

This is true but it seems to happen more in Shiite countries like Iran then Shia countries.