Regarding Spider-Woman's name...

[Crash-Man]

I'm not a fan of Spider-Woman. The character seems decent enough, but the name and the concept never cease to bother me. And having her opposite Spidey on the Avengers devalues both characters in my opinion.

If Spider-Woman's so different, why doesn't Marvel grow up and call her something other than Spider-Woman?

Regardless of how unique the character is (thought to be by some), once she retains that moniker she'll always be immediately classed among the rest of other female characters who are nothing more than rip-offs of established male icons.

Having to use a male character's sucess as a crutch undermines the whole idea of being a unique, strong, female character.

Thoughts?

[Joseph Sun]

I'm not a fan of Spider-Woman. The character seems decent enough, but the name and the concept never cease to bother me. And having her opposite Spidey on the Avengers devalues both characters in my opinion.

If Spider-Woman's so different, why doesn't Marvel grow up and call her something other than Spider-Woman?

Regardless of how unique the character is (thought to be by some), once she retains that moniker she'll always be immediately classed among the rest of other female characters who are nothing more than rip-offs of established male icons.

Having to use a male character's sucess as a crutch undermines the whole idea of being a unique, strong, female character.

Thoughts?

I agree. Do a Jean Grey and just call her by her real name.

[crystalline green]

Or Arachne?

Call her whatever you want though. I LOVE Spider-Woman and I'm glad to see her back in the limelight. :)

[ChildOfTheDarkholde]

It's all a matter of opinion.
Some people think that "female versions" of male characters are crappy, other think they are actually cool characters in their own right...
Spider-Girl, She-hulk, Spider-Woman, Ms.Marvel are all alleged rip-offs and yet they haven't disappeared from comics, and in fact are currently all thriving and expanding their fanbase.

I personally believe that these characters are strong and unique,(I see this as going beyond a name or a costume) but that's just my opinion.

[Crash-Man]

I even read somewhere that Spider-Woman was created just to keep the name from being used by another company...or something like that?

Either way, I'm all for strong female characters, but these women have to step into their own spotlight and out of the shadow of their male titleholders.

[Gaz]

I even read somewhere that Spider-Woman was created just to keep the name from being used by another company...or something like that?

Either way, I'm all for strong female characters, but these women have to step into their own spotlight and out of the shadow of their male titleholders.
Carol Danvers is likely going to be CAPTAIN Marvel, from now on.
She-Hulk and Spider-Woman both have upcoming series which are much different from the males titles.

[Crash-Man]

So if they're so different...why not change their names?

[Gaz]

So if they're so different...why not change their names?
Because then their origins and names are out of whack.
(Especially She-Hulk who IS directly related to Banner)

[Steven F.]

Jessica Drew should not be SPider-Woman.....she didn't WANT to be for years and years....until Bendis.

I wonder if we will ever hear anything of Mattie Franklin? Or in my opinion the BEST by FAR Spider-Woman of all time, Julia Carptenter.

[Cayman]

I don't see any real reason to change her name. She's been Jessica Drew, Spider-Woman since I was a kid and it's suited her just fine.

Cay

[Shellhead]

I don't see any real reason to change her name. She's been Jessica Drew, Spider-Woman since I was a kid and it's suited her just fine.

Cay

Except for the confusion with current character Spider-Girl, or Spider Woman II, who belonged to the West Coast Avengers. And wasn't there another spider-chick in between those two? Even back in the 70's, when Jessica was the only Spider-female (aside from Black Widow, anyway), I thought that name didn't quite suit her. Since she fired venom blasts, I thought she should be called Venom. Obviously that wouldn't work now, but Spider Woman is still problematic.

[Harold of the Rocks]

Jessica should have been the only Spider-Woman. The other 2 (or are there 3?) should have went by something else. Anything else. Sundae. Fido. String Cheese. Mailbox. Carpentress. Franklinstein. Anything. I don't think very many fans who actually know anything about Jessica find her to be a Spidey rip-off. She has some simliar powers, but also has some Pete lacks. And to me they are important ones. She can glide, where he can web (his power is way cooler in this department). Yet she has pheremones and venom blasts, where he does not. And she has no 'Spider-Sense', yet also has an immunity to toxins and radiation that Pete does not. -- And btw, I don't consider Spider-Girl to be a 'rip-off' either, as she is Pete's daughter in an alternate universe...so the fact that here powers are remarkably similar makes sense -- genetic tie-in. Now, because Jessica and Pete are quite different in abilities, I can see the case being made for not naming her Spider-Woman in the first place, but now that it is done, I would rather forget (or retcon) the other 'Spider-Women' than change her history. Oh, and her going by her full name (ala Jean Grey) is to me a 'less than stellar' idea. She benefits from a secret identity significantly. And a gal in that costume needs a more dramatic introduction than simply 'Jessica Drew'. Maybe she could go by "Damn Girl!" ;)

[Gaz]

Except for the confusion with current character Spider-Girl, or Spider Woman II, who belonged to the West Coast Avengers. And wasn't there another spider-chick in between those two? Even back in the 70's, when Jessica was the only Spider-female (aside from Black Widow, anyway), I thought that name didn't quite suit her. Since she fired venom blasts, I thought she should be called Venom. Obviously that wouldn't work now, but Spider Woman is still problematic.
Spider-Woman III came after Julia from WCA, she was Mattie Franklin, who is Jameson's foster (or adopted) daughter. She last showed up in Alias, IIRC. A cameo in The Pulse would make sense though! (She could be Luke and Jessica's babysitter! She has powers to protect the kid, and she's a teenager, who Jessica knows and trusts.)

[Alan2099]

I thought Mattie was Spider-woman IV and a villian had taken the name Spider-Woman III.

[Gaz]

I thought Mattie was Spider-woman IV and a villian had taken the name Spider-Woman III.
I thought it was the other way round, but OK?

[ChildOfTheDarkholde]

Jessica Drew should not be SPider-Woman.....she didn't WANT to be for years and years....until Bendis.



And that is the way it is for any forgotten character...they are fictional, and they really can't "do" anything about their fates until a writer takes them up.

She didn't want to be Spider-Woman because she was FORCED not to be Spider-Woman.
Do you not remember that she was literally killed and her powers were basically taken away from her? And then the memory that she ever existed was erased form the whole world by Magnus?
She decided not to be a "superheroine" because she had no superpowers, but she still kept on "do-gooding", by becoming a private investigator.
And even with depleted and/or fluctuating powers, she many times got herself in major trouble that really called for superpowers.
She never just decided to not be Spider-Woman, just because.

In my biased opinion, she is the only Spider-Woman.
Julia Carpenter is a cool character and I wish she came back...as somenthing else.

[Harold of the Rocks]

In my biased opinion, she is the only Spider-Woman.
Julia Carpenter is a cool character and I wish she came back...as something else.

Here, here! ;)

[Crash-Man]

I can see the case being made for not naming her Spider-Woman in the first place

That's the case I'm trying to present. Her name is a marketing ploy to draw casual readers in when they think she's just a female version of Spider-Man. She isn't. So why keep the name...and worse, why keep them both on one team?

Makes them both seem less unique. "Hey! I'm the spider guy, and she's the spider gal! Together we're the spider folks! Now watch us stick..."

[xnef1025]

That's the case I'm trying to present. Her name is a marketing ploy to draw casual readers in when they think she's just a female version of Spider-Man. She isn't. So why keep the name...and worse, why keep them both on one team?

Makes them both seem less unique. "Hey! I'm the spider guy, and she's the spider gal! Together we're the spider folks! Now watch us stick..."
She's been Spider-Woman since the 70's and that's how all the fans know her and it's what she's called herself ever since she started being a superhero. It would be stupid to change her name all of a sudden.

You are right about the marketing aspect. That was the original reason for the name. Subsequent writers have made her into an equal character in her own right though. That's why she's still around. Also, from a marketing standpoint today, changing the brand of a nearly 30 year old product will confuse and alienate your customers.

Jean got around this because each time her codename changed, she did. She was Marvel Girl, got Phoenix powers and became Phoenix, then Dark Phoenix, then she died and came back with her original powers so back to Marvel Girl, after awhile the writers just decided to ditch Marvel Girl and call her Jean, which was fine because she always was Jean and the X-Men hadn't been too careful with thier secret IDs for years anyway.

As for why they are on the team together: Bendis likes both Spiders and NA is his baby. If she were hopping around throwing out one-liners like Pete, it would be an issue, but that's not the case at all. If you want an example of a pointless female counterpart, look at Hawkwoman/girl(non-animated) over in DC back in the day.Compare that to Jess, and you'll see that Spider-Woman has no uniquness issues.

[Harold of the Rocks]

That's the case I'm trying to present. Her name is a marketing ploy to draw casual readers in when they think she's just a female version of Spider-Man. She isn't. So why keep the name...and worse, why keep them both on one team?

Makes them both seem less unique. "Hey! I'm the spider guy, and she's the spider gal! Together we're the spider folks! Now watch us stick..."

because it has been her name for a long time now...

She should have been the original Black Widow, and name the Ruskie tart something else... but as Carole King sang (I'm listening to her as I type, coincidentally) "but it's too late baby, now it's too late..."

So Jessica is Spider-Woman. I still stand by the argument that her powers are so different from Pete's that she really isn't a female 'version' of Spider-Man to anyone who invests two minutes into her story. You don't change her name because she's on the same team as Spidey. Not now. Changing it would be worse. Mighta (nee was) a marketing ploy back in the day, but her history is too deep to just do a name change for the sake of posterity. They never were the same heroes, so what's so difficult to swallow about them keepin' their names and workin' together? :)

[Harold of the Rocks]

Totally agree with you xnef1025, in fact you beat me to the proverbial punch on most of my points...

(Harold's edit) ...and you'll see that Spider-Woman has no uniqueness issues.

Except that she has gravity defying 38-DD breasts like 97% of all comic book (not just Marvel) Super-Heroines. And a 25 inch waist And... (oh, shut up, Harold). ;)

[ChildOfTheDarkholde]

Jessica wasn't exactly a marketing ploy to capitalize on Spidey...she was more of a way for Marvel to prevent the concept to be used by anyone else (and I understand there were runblings of another company ready to create a "spider-woman" sort of character)
If she had been a real ploy to ride his coattails, she would've been made Pete's cousin, or girlfriend, or otherwise related to him. And her costume would've been made to look just like his (Supergirl Batgirl, Ms Marvel and many others)
In fact, she only met him on issue # 20 of her book.
If it had been today, I bet Spidey would be a guest star in issue # 1 or no later than # 4...

[Harold of the Rocks]

Point well taken, Child. But I would also argue that the 'face' and aggressive nature of marketing has changed. In this world of modern 'instant gratification', "waiting" for issue 4 for a Spidey appearance is like an hour of foreplay ;) . Back in the day, I would argue that waiting for the big thrill was more of a... well, thrill. Hell, I would argue that 90+% of our male posters under 25 here think foreplay is a menu item at the restaurant... ;)

[Crash-Man]

Jean got around this because each time her codename changed, she did. She was Marvel Girl, got Phoenix powers and became Phoenix, then Dark Phoenix, then she died and came back with her original powers so back to Marvel Girl, after awhile the writers just decided to ditch Marvel Girl and call her Jean, which was fine because she always was Jean and the X-Men hadn't been too careful with thier secret IDs for years anyway.


No, I think Jean got around this because the success of the X-Books didn't depend on her titular similarity to another estblished character.

Spider-Woman's longevity has more to do with the name "Spider-Woman" than with the character itself. Why do you think there've been so many Spider-Female characters who each had a level of success in their own right? It's because of the Spider-Man link. And as I've been saying, this undermines the focus on the characters themselves.

If (and I'm not saying it's untrue) Spider-Woman has become so unique and popular on her own strengths, a name change would be seen as a step up...an evolution.

Personally I look at the profile and wonder why she even needs the name. She looks original enough on paper.

And Ms Marvel changed to Binary changed to Warbird changed to Captain Marvel. Marvel Girl changed to Phoenix changed to Marvel Girl changed to Jean Grey. Invisible Girl changed to Invisible Woman. None of these characters became obscure.

Spider-Woman's changed...so why can't her name change?

Marketability. That's all.

[ChildOfTheDarkholde]

And Ms Marvel changed to Binary changed to Warbird changed to Captain Marvel. Marvel Girl changed to Phoenix changed to Marvel Girl changed to Jean Grey. Invisible Girl changed to Invisible Woman. None of these characters became obscure.

She-hulk never became Gamma Girl, or SuperStrongWoman or anything else.
And why would she?
She never became obscure either.
And neither did Supergirl.



Spider-Woman's changed...so why can't her name change?

Marketability. That's all.

And nothing wrong with that. Is it?
If the name alone will guarantee that some people will at least give it a chance, then I'm all for it.
Then again, many people hate all these female equivalents precisely because they see them as rip-offs.
But many people also like them precisely because of their connections to the male characters, no matter how tenuous.

And then you have those like me, who love the She-hulk and Spider-Woman and mS Marvel purely because of who they are, in fact, I personally don't care for Hulk, Captain Marvel or Spider-man one bit.
Never have, never will.

It's all relative, man.

[CAPWOLF]

They arent similar at all...Aside from signifigantly different powers, Spider Woman is much meaner than Spider Man and no guilt trips or angst to deal with. By the way can Spider Woman stick to walls? I never see her wall crawling or anything like that she just flies everywhere....

[Crash-Man]

She-hulk never became Gamma Girl, or SuperStrongWoman or anything else.
And why would she?
She never became obscure either.
And neither did Supergirl.


That's EXACTLY my point.

Unlike the examples I cited, Supergirl and She-Hulk depend on the reputations of established characters to remain as popular. Or at the very least, this is what Marvel believes/perpetuates.

Do you think that She-Hulk, Supergirl and Spider-Woman could survive or remain as popular without the boost their names/associations give them?

If you do, then you truly believe in the quality of the characters and the merit of female supers. I don't think Marvel believes that though.

[Crash-Man]

I'd buy a SuperStrongWoman monthly title.

[Kirk G]

I'd love to see a classic foe of Spidey or two run up against Spider-Woman and start to whale the tar out of her (or t ry) under the misguided theory that she was related to him... wife, sister, daughter, girlfriend, etc. If the fans are confused, imagine someone as dim as the Rhino or other thug....

[ChildOfTheDarkholde]

I'd love to see a classic foe of Spidey or two run up against Spider-Woman and start to whale the tar out of her (or t ry) under the misguided theory that she was related to him... wife, sister, daughter, girlfriend, etc. If the fans are confused, imagine someone as dim as the Rhino or other thug....

LOL!

I would like that too.

[mistervader]

Wait... she was a private detective for a while? I don't know about you but that just reeks of...

... say, is she related to Nancy? :P

[Edward J Cunningham]

Carol Danvers is likely going to be CAPTAIN Marvel, from now on.
She-Hulk and Spider-Woman both have upcoming series which are much different from the males titles.

I wish you were right, but *sigh* unfortunately it looks like she is just going back to her old name of "Ms. Marvel." I know I'm in the minority, but I actually prefer her new name of "Warbird" to "Ms. Marvel." If she were to become the new Captain Marvel, though, that would be great! Carol is certainly more popular and recognizable (in the Marvel Universe, that is) than either the late Mar-Vell or his son Genis.

(And Marvel fans, including the guys in ediorial, will hate to read this, but the REAL Captain Marvel will always be the original Fawcett Comics character, no matter how long Marvel owns the rights to the name.)

Eddie Cunningham

[Edward J Cunningham]

And Ms Marvel changed to Binary changed to Warbird changed to Captain Marvel.

Where did you hear this? I WISH it were true, but the sad truth is that her name has been changed back to "Ms. Marvel." Marvel, unfortunately, probably has plans for somebody else (the orginal Mar-Vell?) to be Captain Marvel. Nothing I have seen or heard says that it is going to be Carol Danvers.

Eddie Cunningham

[Dermie]

Where did you hear this? I WISH it were true, but the sad truth is that her name has been changed back to "Ms. Marvel."

That is NOT truth yet Eddie! In House of M #1 Carol says she is thinking about using the Ms Marvel name again--only thinking about it.
Yes, she is called "Ms Marvel" in the current arc of Marvel Team-Up, but there is no indication if it takes place before or after House of M.
The current issue of Thunderbolts calls her "Warbird", so it does not appear that ANY one code name is currently official for Carol.
She is being called "Captain Marvel" in HoM, "Ms Marvel" in Team-Up and "Warbird" in T-Bolts. It changes from book to book.

Marvel, unfortunately, probably has plans for somebody else (the orginal Mar-Vell?)

No, they have said there are no plans to bring back Mar-Vell.

Nothing I have seen or heard says that it is going to be Carol Danvers.

The fact that they took the name away from Genis, and then just a few months later Carol starts using it in HoM is a reason to at least suspect it. There have not been any new Captain Marvels introduced since then, and no word about any others in the works. Carol seems as likely a candidate as anything else.

[DMike]

I WISH it were true, but the sad truth is that her name has been changed back to "Ms. Marvel." Marvel, unfortunately, probably has plans for somebody else (the orginal Mar-Vell?) to be Captain Marvel.

I don't know about plans, but the current 616 Captain Marvel is Genis's sister Phyla.

[ChildOfTheDarkholde]

They arent similar at all...Aside from signifigantly different powers, Spider Woman is much meaner than Spider Man and no guilt trips or angst to deal with. By the way can Spider Woman stick to walls? I never see her wall crawling or anything like that she just flies everywhere....

Yes she can.
IN fact, the cover to the upcoming New Avengers# 15 is this:

http://www.tomburgos.com/15AvengersCov.gif

[Dermie]

I don't know about plans, but the current 616 Captain Marvel is Genis's sister Phyla.

No, she isnt. She wanted the name, but the last time we saw her she was not using it.

[Joseph Sun]

Who think there should be an Iron Woman in new avengers?

[ChildOfTheDarkholde]

Who think there should be an Iron Woman in new avengers?

IronMa'm...sure, why not? :D

[marvelboi77]

I prefer her to keep the name Spider-Woman. But they can change her name to turd in a punch bowl as long as the keep the character the same and in the same kick ass costume. :D