Stop the butchering!

[The Herald of Torrent]

Just stop it already! Damn you 4KidsTV, Damn you! They went and slaughtered One Peice (putting it mildly), Sonic X, and too many other great Anime's to count! Is Anyone else seriously P.O.ed about this?!

[Adem]

I was really mad about how they edited One Piece, but I don't care as long as kids enjoy it. I have the manga for my One Piece fix. Sonic X I don't care about because I had the older Sonic cartoon when I was young so once again if the current generation of youngsters are enjoying it I don't care. The only reason I watch saturday cartoons anymore is for the TMNT show.

[The Xenos]

I swear, if I hear one Narutard bitching about the edits to Naruto, I'm gonna *($#ing slap them. One Piece fans have to put up with this crap.

-Xenos

[Domo Goddess]

How was One Piece edited ?
I only saw a little bit of the Japanese version.

[SuperSaiyaMan12]

How was One Piece edited ?
I only saw a little bit of the Japanese version.
How about they cut out the blood, cigarretes, guns, etc? Also the Rap intro(it was a beautiful orchestral theme song) and horrible voice actors.

[Chevan]

How was One Piece edited ?
I only saw a little bit of the Japanese version.

Let's see what VG Cats has to say (http://www.vgcats.com/comics/?strip_id=145).

[Domo Goddess]

I always change channels whenever the opening song comes on ! :mad:

[master of read]

naruto is good. they edited the massive amounts of blood but i am very happy with the result. HA!!! IN YOUR FACE 4KIDS!!!!!

[Deskad]

I refuse to watch dubs, just plain refused.

My little wish.

"SUBTITLE IT AND LEAVE IT THE *&%$ ALONE ASSHOLES!!!!"

[Matt K]

I refuse to watch dubs, just plain refused.

My little wish.

"SUBTITLE IT AND LEAVE IT THE *&%$ ALONE ASSHOLES!!!!"

Or how about dub it properly because I don't like to read my tv.

[Deskad]

Or how about dub it properly because I don't like to read my tv.
That works. Do not edit content, leave the music, the music lyrics, but just translate the speech, normal voiced, as close as humanly possible. Then it works.

On the other hand, subs promote reading :D , so I still prefer them.

[DoubleWide]

ENOUGH!!! Yes what 4Kids does is wrong, buy why does everyone keep bitching about it in message boards? It is doubtful that anyone there even sees the messages from irate anime fans.If you must complain, write or email 4Kids directly and vent yout slpeen to them.

[Jared_Humpherys]

How about they cut out the blood, cigarretes, guns, etc? Also the Rap intro(it was a beautiful orchestral theme song) and horrible voice actors.


...




...Rap intro? To One Piece?


Oh god, I think I'm gonna be sick...

[Chevan]

I don't mind dubs, if they're at least decent. There are good dubs out there - Cowboy Bebop comes to mind. There are also instances where dubbing makes more sense, like in Hellsing. They're in England, hearing them speak English is more appropriate.

I do agree that there are some awful dubs out there, and if I've seen a show subbed, I doubt I'll be able to get used to it subbed (Grenadier is probably going to be like that for me when it's released).

So, it depends. I usually try both, to see what I like more for a specific series.

[The Xenos]

How about they cut out the blood, cigarretes, guns, etc? Also the Rap intro(it was a beautiful orchestral theme song) and horrible voice actors.

My friends who are die hard One Piece fans noticed it's not just the intro, but 4kids replaced most of the music and put in really crappy cartoony sounding tunes. They gave Shanks a goofy flute music. We joked that between that and the accent we're waiting for him to start talking about his Lucky Charms.

-Xenos

[Cephus]

One Piece is a prime example of why fansubs are necessary. Until someone just blows up 4Kids and puts everyone out of their misery, that's the only way you can ever get to see One Piece unmolested.

Screw 4Kids. Fansubs forever.

[Guts/Batman]

The only reason why Dubs exists is to sell cards...

[Deskad]

Fansubs forever.


FANSUBS FOREVER!!!! [let's make this an official cheer]

[Guts/Batman]

FANSUBS FOREVER!!!! [let's make this an official cheer]

Just don't let that Chaploo guy hear you saying that...

[Cephus]

The reality is that until US companies start putting uncut, unmolested anime on TV or DVD, hopefully subtitled, but I'll accept well dubbed, I'm not going to be buying or watching it. I started watching anime in 1977, I learned Japanese so I could understand it and I'm not about to sit there and watch some idiot ruin it because they have money to throw at random licensing. Anyone who doesn't like that can take a long walk off a short pier. And don't give me any "ooh, it's wrong, it's wrong" nonsense. It's a choice. I choose to watch it as it was intended to be seen. If you don't like that, take a hike.

[Lubichev]

It should be a requirement to watch these shows in thier origional Japanese format. So go out and learn Japanese (it language isn't too hard to learn. it is the kanji and katakana that is a bitch) and then watch them. These shows are SO MUCH BETTER that way! It is like reading Aristophanes in ancient Greek. "Lost in translation" is the truth. Now getting 4Kids to offer that choice is going to be next to impossible. So just learn a new language and enjoy these shows the way they were meant to be seen and heard. That isn't so hard, is it? Check out Jlist.com for all things Japanese if you haven't already. (Note: possibly NSFW)

[Guts/Batman]

Couldn't care less, he's just a corporate stooge.

The reality is that until US companies start putting uncut, unmolested anime on TV or DVD, hopefully subtitled, but I'll accept well dubbed, I'm not going to be buying or watching it. I started watching anime in 1977, I learned Japanese so I could understand it and I'm not about to sit there and watch some idiot ruin it because they have money to throw at random licensing. Anyone who doesn't like that can take a long walk off a short pier. And don't give me any "ooh, it's wrong, it's wrong" nonsense. It's a choice. I choose to watch it as it was intended to be seen. If you don't like that, take a hike.

I totally agree with you. And I couldn't care less about what he says.

[Chevan]

It should be a requirement to watch these shows in thier origional Japanese format. So go out and learn Japanese (it language isn't too hard to learn. it is the kanji and katakana that is a bitch) and then watch them. These shows are SO MUCH BETTER that way! It is like reading Aristophanes in ancient Greek. "Lost in translation" is the truth. Now getting 4Kids to offer that choice is going to be next to impossible. So just learn a new language and enjoy these shows the way they were meant to be seen and heard. That isn't so hard, is it? Check out Jlist.com for all things Japanese if you haven't already. (Note: possibly NSFW)

I had a scathing flame here, but I decided I wasn't going to be an asshole.

So, I'll shorten it to this: That idea has very little chance of ever working for various reasons that I don't have the energy to write calmly.

[Guts/Batman]

I had a scathing flame here, but I decided I wasn't going to be an asshole.

So, I'll shorten it to this: That idea has very little chance of ever working for various reasons that I don't have the energy to write calmly.

Why don't ya type the various reasons un-calmly? He has made an argument for his idea, what's your argument for his idea not working?

[Pikachu]

I learned Japanese because I love the culture. "One Piece" is indeed part of that culture! And I must say... I haven't watched anything by Foxbox since they murdered "Escaflowne." I cringe to hear just half the stuff they did to the series. I cringe to hear what VIZ comics does to the series! I'm just going to remain hard core, and read the originals. That way my money goes directly to those creating "One Piece" and not some corporate stooges in America trying to tell me what Anime and Manga should be, and then censoring everything else because I'm not adult enough to handle it. Hello? I'm freakin' 25 years old. If they want to sell to kids, release an Anime/Manga for kids. Stop touching the number ONE manga franchise on the planet and making it suck!

Yeah, I have issues.

Pika!

[The Drunkard Kid]

After seeing One Piece and TMNT, I have developed a theory: Fox Box has seen the massive influx of anime into the American media and, fearing for the jobs of hardworking animators and writers, has made it its goal to suck all things of worth out of anything from Japan and put the resultant pool of awesomeness into TMNT.

And let's face it, it's working.

[Chevan]

Why don't ya type the various reasons un-calmly? He has made an argument for his idea, what's your argument for his idea not working?

Okay.

There are a large number of anime fans out there, not just the elite ones. There are casual fans, there are occasional fans, there are kids, there are adults, there's an entire spectrum of fans.

To say that everyone should learn a new language when a great number of them don't have the time/money/energy/motivation to do so is asking too much of people. Kids have school, and likely don't have enough money to pay for tutors/courses/guide books. Regular people have jobs, and they probably won't want to drop the money and use their time to learn a new language to be able to watch a genre that is otherwise enjoyable. There are people that couldn't afford to learn even if they had the time, and there are people that have the money, but not enough time.

Having knowledge of Japanese being a requirement for watching anime cuts most of the anime fans out of the entire genre.

Not to mention, it would pretty much kill the industry. I doubt the major anime importing companies are going to buy licenses for shows when only a small niche of consumers (the ones that actually know Japanese) would buy the shows. The anime industry is small now, it'd be even smaller.

Anime would also drop out of the mainstream. If anime is only shown in Japanese, then it's not going to be shown on stuff like Adult Swim/Toonami. A show not many people understand, especially with some of the dialogue heavy/ slow moving shows, wouldn't have good ratings. You wouldn't see anime in places like Blockbuster, Netflix, or Borders. If some of your stock only caters to a very small crowd, then it's not that profitable to have it in stock. There's untranslated manga at Borders, but it's in the Manga section, and it probably wouldn't be there if there weren't already large shelves for the Manga section.

It's a problem that's similar to how games are displayed in the common media. The news, award shows, general programs; it's more profitable to cater to the largest portion of the audience, which is the casual fan. Would hardcore gamers like to see better award shows and more accurate media coverage? Probably. It's not going to happen, though, because those types of things would probably only appeal to the hardcore gamers, a group that is much, much smaller than the casual fans.

There, that's a lot calmer than I would have written before. I apologize for not writing it out, but I had just gone to the gym for the first time in several months and ended up overworking myself, and was extremely exhausted. I didn't have the energy to write it well and coherently.

[Cephus]

It should be a requirement to watch these shows in thier origional Japanese format. So go out and learn Japanese (it language isn't too hard to learn. it is the kanji and katakana that is a bitch) and then watch them. These shows are SO MUCH BETTER that way! It is like reading Aristophanes in ancient Greek. "Lost in translation" is the truth. Now getting 4Kids to offer that choice is going to be next to impossible. So just learn a new language and enjoy these shows the way they were meant to be seen and heard. That isn't so hard, is it? Check out Jlist.com for all things Japanese if you haven't already. (Note: possibly NSFW)

I think that's pretty unworkable really. I mean, even back in the 70s and 80s when there were no subs and no dubs, not many people bothered learning Japanese so they could watch anime. Most people read a synopsis and faked it or had someone who did understand what was going on explain it to them.

People are inherently lazy. I don't think there's anything about anime that really requires you to learn the language, if they'd just faithfully translate it into English and hire decent voice actors, I wouldn't even mind dubbed anime. It's the fact that they DON'T that bugs me. It's the fact that they take a show that's not intended for little kids, license it, and mutilate it to appeal to a demographic it isn't intended for, that bugs me. It's the fact that they utterly ruin anime for a perceived buck when there is just as much of an audience in the intended age range. It's utterly stupid to take something like Akira and try to make it preschool friendly when there are plenty of preschool friendly anime series available already!

[Chevan]

I think that's pretty unworkable really. I mean, even back in the 70s and 80s when there were no subs and no dubs, not many people bothered learning Japanese so they could watch anime. Most people read a synopsis and faked it or had someone who did understand what was going on explain it to them.

People are inherently lazy. I don't think there's anything about anime that really requires you to learn the language, if they'd just faithfully translate it into English and hire decent voice actors, I wouldn't even mind dubbed anime. It's the fact that they DON'T that bugs me. It's the fact that they take a show that's not intended for little kids, license it, and mutilate it to appeal to a demographic it isn't intended for, that bugs me. It's the fact that they utterly ruin anime for a perceived buck when there is just as much of an audience in the intended age range. It's utterly stupid to take something like Akira and try to make it preschool friendly when there are plenty of preschool friendly anime series available already!

I agree with your first point completely, but I have a question. When did they take an older-emographic show and edit it for a younger crowd?

As far as I know, stuff like DBZ, Yugioh, One Piece, those were all intended for the child/teen target group, am I missing a show?

[Deskad]

After seeing One Piece and TMNT, I have developed a theory: Fox Box has seen the massive influx of anime into the American media and, fearing for the jobs of hardworking animators and writers, has made it its goal to suck all things of worth out of anything from Japan and put the resultant pool of awesomeness into TMNT.

And let's face it, it's working.


You know, that's kinda my theory as well. They could dub good, but they don't, why? The only explanation I came up with was destroying foreign competition.

[Deskad]

For note, I agree with everything Cephus aid so far.


and...

FANSUBS FOREVER!!!

[Chevan]

Look at the target market 4Kids is going for. Kids. It's in the name, and it shows in the shows (heh, sorry) they pick up. It's even in the name of their station.

Your average kid isn't going to notice or care about bad dubbing. They probably haven't seen the fansubs of X show. They're not going to notice if something doesn't make sense or if something got edited out. They probably won't care that the man that used to smoke cigarettes now has a lollipop in his mouth. They're not really going to care about most of the complaint subjects that anime fans have.

Their target audience is children, so why spend the money to do a quality job on a show when they can do it half-assed and make the same amount of money?

[Guts/Batman]

Because they care about the quality of their product...

*Begins laughing hysterically*

[Kaiden]

Their target audience is children, so why spend the money to do a quality job on a show when they can do it half-assed and make the same amount of money?

Why go through all the trouble of creating a high-quality game like Halo for older age groups when kids are going to play it instead of Mario? Or what about Adult Swim? Considering more kids watch it than actual adults, why even call the Saturday night block "Adult Swim"?

[Chevan]

Why go through all the trouble of creating a high-quality game like Halo for older age groups when kids are going to play it instead of Mario? Or what about Adult Swim? Considering more kids watch it than actual adults, why even call the Saturday night block "Adult Swim"?

Halo: Because it wasn't intended for children to play. There's an M on it for a reason. It's not Bungie's fault people don't pay attention to what their kids are playing.

Adult Swim: Aesthetic and legal reasons, probably. 'Adult Swim' because it's catchy and implies that it's not something children are supposed to watch. There's also the disclaimer that states that children under 13(14?) shouldn't watch the programming. That probably serves as an effective barrier against lawsuits (My child watched your offensive programming! Take it off the air!) that people might bring against Turner Entertainment or Time Warner.

[Kaiden]

Adult Swim: Aesthetic and legal reasons, probably. 'Adult Swim' because it's catchy and implies that it's not something children are supposed to watch. There's also the disclaimer that states that children under 13(14?) shouldn't watch the programming. That probably serves as an effective barrier against lawsuits (My child watched your offensive programming! Take it off the air!) that people might bring against Turner Entertainment or Time Warner.

It's 14. I shold know, my nephew got me started on Cowboy Bebop. Ah, a day I'll never forget... If I could remember. And as for the "effective" barrier, I doubt anyone really notices, what with the way the world is right now.

[Deskad]

I watched uncut anime at 5, didn't get a flicker out of me. Are kids on the north american continent that friggin soft?

[Chevan]

I watched uncut anime at 5, didn't get a flicker out of me. Are kids on the north american continent that friggin soft?

Kids are as varying as adults are.

However, the prevailing attitude in America is that kids don't have the power to make decisions regarding what's appropriate for themselves. That decision gets made for them by their parents, by people worrying about "protecting the innocence of the children", and by companies that don't want to get their asses sued off by the previous two.

[Kaiden]

That decision gets made for them by their parents, by people worrying about "protecting the innocence of the children", and by companies that don't want to get their asses sued off by the previous two.
Truth in layman's terms.
They butchered Kenshin, didn't they?

[Chevan]

Truth in layman's terms.
They butchered Kenshin, didn't they?

I haven't seen the Kenshin anime in a while, so I really don't remember much.

[Lubichev]

I had a scathing flame here, but I decided I wasn't going to be an asshole.

So, I'll shorten it to this: That idea has very little chance of ever working for various reasons that I don't have the energy to write calmly.
Easy, man. I didn't want to get you all steamed up. It is hard to have people read something you write and read it in their own tone. I think you took me a little too seroiusly. I'm not trying to be an elitist here. I wasn't suggesting that people HAVE to learn Japanese to watch it and those who don't are not fans enough to watch it or enjoy it just as much. That is retrarded. I'm just stressing the fact that the origional Japanese format offers so much more than the translated, chopped up Americanized version as this thread has suggested. "Requirement" was a little tongue-in-cheek. I know Russian, English, and Japanese so I get to watch many things in different languages and subtitles and believe me, it makes a huge difference just in terms of appreciation for the story in its true language without having anything lost in the translation. An appreciation for something is a great thing. The understanding of something in its origional format (anime, italian poetry, russian lullabies, greek plays, whatever) is a wonderful thing. Sorry if I rubbed you the wrong way. And thanks for not being the asshole.

[Chevan]

Easy, man. I didn't want to get you all steamed up. It is hard to have people read someting you write and read it in their own tone. I think you took me a little too seroiusly. I'm not trying to be an elitist here. I wasn't suggesting that people HAVE to learn Japanese to watch it and those who don't are not fans enough to watch it. That is retrarded. I'm just stressing the fact that the origional Japanese format offers so much more than the translated, chopped up Americanized version as this thread has suggested. I know Russian, English, and Japanese so I get to watch many things in different languages and subtitles and believe me, it makes a huge difference just in terms of appreciation for the story in its true language without having anything lost in the translation. An appreciation for something is a great thing. The understanding of something in its origional format (anime, italian poetry, russian lullabies, greek plays, whatever) is a wonderful thing. Sorry if I rubbed you the wrong way. And thanks for not being the asshole.

It wasn't as much rubbing the wrong way, (though there was a little of that) as much as that I was seriously exhausted from accidentally overworking myself in the gym that day, to the point where I threw up several times. I had taken a break for a couple months, then stupidly tried to do my old routine the first time back in the gym. I was really, really tired, not feeling well, and in a general bad mood.

So, I'm sorry if I came off really harsh there. Thanks for clarifying, and not flaming back. I can see your point clearly now, and I do agree with your that most material is better in the original language, with all the nuances and half-meanings intact.

[Lubichev]

Dig. :)
And don't exercise to death. Small steps turn into giant leaps, Chevan.

[Paploo the Ewok]

Truth in layman's terms.
They butchered Kenshin, didn't they?

No they didn't.

Yes,They cut some of the more violent parts out for the Cartoon Network run, since it aired on Toonami [ie- kid aimed block, and the show is indeed aimed at kids, as it ran in Shonen Jump and aired during early evenings in Japan, like most family shopws]. http://www.animenewsnetwork.com

BUT- Media Blasters also created an unedited dub and subtitled version, which was available on VHS and DVD in it's entirety LONG before it aired on Cartoon Network [as in a year or so since the last release, and 4 or miore years since they started it]. The CN version was for CN ONLY, so if you buy a DVD, you get all the violence and stuff you want.

Showing it on CN got it wider exposure, made the manga a hit, lead to the sale of tons of unedited DVD's, AND probably helped Media Blasters make enough profit to bring over several other fan favorite shows. Due to broadcasting standards for the timeslot/block it ran in, cuts were necessary.

Butchered for ALL eternity? NOPE. Just for a CN run that's long since done, and Unedited versions preserved for all time for you to own- the Boxset versions are geting repriced as "Economy Versions" soon too, with each season for 80 bucks [ie- 7 or 8 dvd's for the price of less than 3]

[Paploo the Ewok]

Look at the target market 4Kids is going for. Kids. It's in the name, and it shows in the shows (heh, sorry) they pick up. It's even in the name of their station.

Your average kid isn't going to notice or care about bad dubbing. They probably haven't seen the fansubs of X show. They're not going to notice if something doesn't make sense or if something got edited out. They probably won't care that the man that used to smoke cigarettes now has a lollipop in his mouth. They're not really going to care about most of the complaint subjects that anime fans have.

Their target audience is children, so why spend the money to do a quality job on a show when they can do it half-assed and make the same amount of money?

I dunno, at least with One Piece when they cut out some epsidoes, the ywent to Toei to have some stuff reanimated/rewritten. That's a much higher quality of kiddy editing then usual.

You did more or less get it spot on- WinX Club, Tokyo Mew Mew, One Piece, Doremi- these are all kids shows made for kids. And in DoReMi's case, as show we wouldn't have a snowball's chance in hell of seeing [Shoujo+Aimed at Elementary Age Kids+Next to no Violence+Ultra Popular In Japan and Worldwide so you know the license'ld cost an arm and a leg= ADV won't be licensing it soon.]

They've stated that they're not against their properties getting unedited releases, it's just that they wait until appropriate times, and it depends on fan deman.
YuGiOh is getting an unedited rerelease, and whenever Shaman King gets a DVD release, apparently an unedited subtitled version is planned. UltraMan Tiga was released in it's entirety subtitles on DVD by Funimation.

They were also responsible for providing Japanese companies with lots of funding for new episodes of shows more popular in the US then in Japan- see the YuGiOh movie [only in english, folks], the Kirby OVAs, the entire 2nd season of Ultimate Muscle even [which being written/created for the US market, is actually unedited, if you look at it in a way]. Even if you don't like them, they ARE making lots of younhger kids anime fans, AND providing japanese companies with lots of work they wouldn't have otherwise that's essentially a sure profit for them, with someonelse footing the bill.

And they do make the AWESOME Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles remake cartoon.

PS- though yeah, the Opening song for One Piece is awful. Hopefully, they'll make a new one for the next season... and again, hopefully we'll get a lush unedited release. I'm not saying they're supergreat for editing this stuff, or the best company ever, I'm just saying they are what they are, nothing more nothingless, and they're certainly not evil, or anti-Anime fan.

[Paploo the Ewok]

One Piece is a prime example of why fansubs are necessary. Until someone just blows up 4Kids and puts everyone out of their misery, that's the only way you can ever get to see One Piece unmolested.

Screw 4Kids. Fansubs forever.

Or until a US company buys the subtitles rights from 4 Kids, like Pioneer did for CCSakura from Nelvana, or Viz Media did from their parent company [their parent company was going to just do a dub version- but VIZ negociated to do unedited boxsets too. Bandai has had similar dealings with Sunrise, who are their parent company, but sometimes don't do what they ask them too- see the unedited Gundam 0079- which lacks a sub due to Sunrise refusing to allow a subbed version]

Even though a One Piece DVD releas of the dub wa sannounced, it hasn't been finalized,and an unedited version can always some sooner [ie- Naruto getting a subbed version announced as being available in 2006] or later [the long wait for Sailor Moon 1st+2nd seasons sets]

[Paploo the Ewok]

Just don't let that Chaploo guy hear you saying that...

I'm assuming you mean me. It's not that fansubs are all bad, it's just that they have their own problems, some a lot worse then problems with the US industry. i don't mean anything against you, and I certainly hope you don't mean anything against me, it's just that bootlegging is a big problem in anime/manga fandom that we should get over as a collective whole.

And me, I like getting a lovely official release with quality packagain/translation that brings the property over to help expose it to more anime fans then it wouild be otherwise.

[Paploo the Ewok]

Couldn't care less, he's just a corporate stooge.

The reality is that until US companies start putting uncut, unmolested anime on TV or DVD, hopefully subtitled, but I'll accept well dubbed, I'm not going to be buying or watching it. I started watching anime in 1977, I learned Japanese so I could understand it and I'm not about to sit there and watch some idiot ruin it because they have money to throw at random licensing. Anyone who doesn't like that can take a long walk off a short pier. And don't give me any "ooh, it's wrong, it's wrong" nonsense. It's a choice. I choose to watch it as it was intended to be seen. If you don't like that, take a hike.

How am I corporate stooge? I don't work for any anime companies. I don't appreciate public meanness, and it's the first time I've encountered it in 6 years of being on CBR.

And if you go to any retailer, you can get a metric crapload of unedited, translated anime.
For god sake's people! I have the entire collection of Aura Battler Dunbine DVD's from ADV and they only cost 20 bucks each. It costs 600 bucks or more to get the japanese dvd relewase of it,. And it's from 1983!!! Really, we're getting things pretty good. The majority of stuff available is in a quality format. 4kids stuff and what gets onTV is mere fraction of what Anime is avaiable. Sometimes people complain too much about these things, and there's TONS of unedited stuff coming out that was thought impossible 5 to 10 years ago -

unedited DBZ, a complete unedited release of it's predecessor Db, Kodomo No Omocha coming over in any format, Sailor Moon S and SuperS getting released, let alone unedited ones, Urusei Yatsura FINISHING it's complete release before the end of this year, an unedited bilingual version of the thrice dubbed+edited Gatchaman, an uncut version of Naussiccaa of the Valley of the Wind, Ghibli's entire library of films getting released [heck, even Sherlock Hound], unedited AND restored versions of the 3 series that make up Robotech, Shoujo Manga overtaking the ENTIRE BOOKSTORE MARKET, theatrical releases for many anime films [limited? yes, but when you consider how much even a very limited release like Patlabor 3 and Sakura Wars the Movie got, it's pretty impressive, especially Spirited Away's success] among a gazillion other things

[jadegiant77]

Yeah put me in the leave it alone column. I was suprised that the edited Naruto left in the "Sexy no jutsu" technique--though i bet there were less clouds in the original version.I just wish they'd air Naruto and One Piece and YuYu Hakusho on Adult Swim like they used to do back in the day.

And god do i hate that f**king One Piece rap! "Gotta go, GOTTA GO!" Lame.

[Pikachu]

Originally posted by GUTS/BATMAN
Because they care about the quality of their product...

*Begins laughing hysterically*

This got me to thinking... why would Foxbox take the number one selling Manga franchise of all time and not do a good job of it?

I mean, if it was an older series like DBZ, then perhaps it would make sense if they didn't spend the quality dubbing, subbing, distributing, etc.

But why ruin a potential multi-billion dollar industry? "One Piece" already garners that much a year in Japan... so why would Fox execs kill it dead? Do they actually think it will lose its momentum and American audiences will become dissinterested?

Series like "Naruto" will stay popular because they are quality and will remain top notch through all incarnations... this will ensure a larger and more steady fan base, because they treated it with respect. Plus they are targeting a lsightly older demographic, even though "One Piece" is originally a more violent manga/anime. Just because one of its themes is heavy handed humor (often quirky at that) this is what makes "One Piece" sell an average of four million copies every five months. No other publication on the planet comes close to that today!

And Foxbox poops on it. It makes one truly wonder about the geniuses who said, "Let's make this crap so we can move onto the next hip thing." It brings it all back to Americas eposodic story telling obsession vs. the Japanese epic drawn out story telling fashion. Marketing vs. taking time to develop a story. Still... they're going to lose billions of dollars in the long run. Or rather, I should say, never see those illustrious green backs in the first place... mainly due to shere stupidity.

At best "One Piece" on Foxbox seems slapped together, hurried, and done entirely with a full dissinterest or respect for the artform and culture it comes from. That single handedly describes why it sucks. And when you think about it, that's a hell of a lot of hard work, to make the number one selling manga on the face of the earth suck.

Pika!

[Cephus]

I agree with your first point completely, but I have a question. When did they take an older-emographic show and edit it for a younger crowd?

One Piece, Saint Seiya, if you want to go back in time, you can look at shows like Voltron, Gatchaman, etc. It's been this way for a long time where they take shows intended for teen audiences and dumbing them down for 6-8 year olds.

As far as I know, stuff like DBZ, Yugioh, One Piece, those were all intended for the child/teen target group, am I missing a show?

They were intended for teen audiences, not the grade-school set like they are here. And besides, you need to look at how children are handled in Japan as opposed to how they are in the US. Here, they're treated like brain-damaged idiots who have to be protected from every little thing, so we can't possibly show them any REALITY like the fact that people smoke... so we have to take out all the cigarettes and any act remotely imitatable, even though now the lollypops are smoking...

Any show that they have to edit for content is being aimed at the wrong audience.

[Cephus]

Look at the target market 4Kids is going for. Kids. It's in the name, and it shows in the shows (heh, sorry) they pick up. It's even in the name of their station.

Then they should be licensing shows for kids. You don't take porn, cut out all the sex, and then call it a kids show. You don't take Texas Chainsaw Massacre, digitally replace the chainsaw with a deck of Pokemon cards, and claim it's for kids. You don't take Hokuto no Ken, cut all the violence (thereby making it a 4 episode series) and pretend it's a kids show.

If they want a kids show, Japan has thousands of them, let them license some of those and leave the shows that were never intended for 4-6 year olds alone!

[Cephus]

it's just that bootlegging is a big problem in anime/manga fandom that we should get over as a collective whole.

Bootlegging wouldn't be a problem if these shows were brought over FAITHFULLY and WITHOUT SLASHING. But they aren't. So bootlegging is here to stay. Deal with it.

[Paploo the Ewok]

Bootlegging wouldn't be a problem if these shows were brought over FAITHFULLY and WITHOUT SLASHING. But they aren't. So bootlegging is here to stay. Deal with it.


"One Piece, Saint Seiya, if you want to go back in time, you can look at shows like Voltron, Gatchaman, etc. It's been this way for a long time where they take shows intended for teen audiences and dumbing them down for 6-8 year olds"

We're getting unedited Gatchaman [with a first ever unedited dub, and the seasons/episodes that weren't dubbed], we have unedited Saint Seiya [with a 2nd, accurate dub with a different cast], and if VIZ can manage to work tghings out, we might get an unedited One Piece soon

And these ARE NOT TEEN AUDIENCE SHOWS IN JAPAN.... they are aimed at 6-12 year olds who buy lots and lots of toys. They're kids anime, just like Zoids, or the ever loving informercial that is YuGiOh [which only became popular when it was remade AS an infomerical. The first season tanked after 20 episodes].
That's not to say it's just for kids. Teens and other family members do watch em, as they're prime time shows, but they are by no means Otaku shows. Otaku shows [ie- shows aimed directly at anime fans] air late at night, even the less violent ones like Haibane Renmei. These are made for kids. That's a problem witha lot of fans arguments. They're bread and butter is kids, who buy all the merchandise made off of them, and make up a sizaable chunk of the audeince [One Piece, Ojamajo DoReMi,Chibi Maruko-Chan, Doraemon and Futari Wa Pretty Cure regularly make the top 10 anime shows, while midway shows aimed at older kid/teen/family viewers like Full Metal Alchemist, Inu Yasha, or Gundam Seed get mabye 1/2 the ratings share kids anime do, and late night anime like Cowboy Bebop or Witch Hunter Robin get barely any ratings in most cases, and make their money back with DVD releases- hence why sometimes yhou won't see a sequel for a show until after DVD sales have been seen - IE Stratos 4 OVA, Gravion Zwei, and others]
That doesn't mean we shouldn't get unedited versions if at all possible- we should, companies should aim to do that. But it doesn't automatically make editing ti for television evil, because kids need these cartoons. It's where new animation fans start, those saturday mornings. If anything, an edited version for kids with an unedited version for hardcore fans [ie-Naruto, Saint Seiya, Sailor Moon S and SuperS] is the best thing to aim for.

Venting about it online DOES NOTHING. If you want something done, write a letter to 4Kids, write a letter to VIZ. Show these companies you mean buisness, and get friends to do this as well [paper works better then e-mail]. If you show that's there's interest, and money to be made, it just might happen.

Buying/downloading bootlegs only shows that you are uninterested in supporting a legitimate release, and oftentimes may make it seem like there is no market for this. Hence, companies ignore you.

PS- I seriously doubt we'll ever see a kiddy edited version of Fist of the Northstar- which is already avaiable here in several unedited forms. But yeah, it probably would only be like 4 eps in the end ^_^

ps- And yes, most Shonen Jump titles bear a 13+ raiting in english. Why? Because that way they can run them mostly unedited. In Japan, censorship is less common, and kids stuff is full of a good deal more mature subject matter. It's still aimed at Elementary school age kids though.

note to self= stop wasting time on Anime boards where people waste time on anime boards.....

[Cephus]

We're getting unedited Gatchaman [with a first ever unedited dub, and the seasons/episodes that weren't dubbed], we have unedited Saint Seiya [with a 2nd, accurate dub with a different cast], and if VIZ can manage to work tghings out, we might get an unedited One Piece soon

Very slowly. Now, if I want to watch Gatchaman II or Dairugger XV or Hokuto no Ken or Tekkaman Blade or Mars Daybreak or heck, if you want to get out of the anime side, shows like Justirisers or Magiranger, how do you propose that happens? The number of shows that are *EVER* licensed in the US is pathetically small and the number of shows that are done right is even smaller. Pointing out a tiny percentage of shows that are being done relatively right (most of which after being ass-raped) really means nothing.

Buying/downloading bootlegs only shows that you are uninterested in supporting a legitimate release, and oftentimes may make it seem like there is no market for this. Hence, companies ignore you.

I don't care if they ignore me, I'm not their target audience. I might have been back in the late 60s/early 70s, but it's been a long, long time since then.

PS- I seriously doubt we'll ever see a kiddy edited version of Fist of the Northstar- which is already avaiable here in several unedited forms. But yeah, it probably would only be like 4 eps in the end ^_^

Yeah, where are all 109 episodes available, completely uncut, in the US? Oh, and make sure you tell us about Hokuto no Ken 2 as well.

ps- And yes, most Shonen Jump titles bear a 13+ raiting in english. Why? Because that way they can run them mostly unedited. In Japan, censorship is less common, and kids stuff is full of a good deal more mature subject matter. It's still aimed at Elementary school age kids though.

That's why you can't look at Japanese age ratings. Something that might be rated for ages 8-12 in Japan would never fly for 15-17 year olds in the US. Very little of what comes over here would get a kiddy rating if left uncut, that's why they slash it to hell.

note to self= stop wasting time on Anime boards where people waste time on anime boards.....

It would be easier if you actually came up with a decent argument rather than smooching the US anime industry's backside. The fact is, the shows that we want to see are not available in large numbers in the format we want, therefore, for as long as that is true, fansubbing and downloading will exist.

Deal with it.

[Chevan]

It would be easier if you actually came up with a decent argument rather than smooching the US anime industry's backside. The fact is, the shows that we want to see are not available in large numbers in the format we want, therefore, for as long as that is true, fansubbing and downloading will exist.

A proverb from Chevan: "When two men talk past each other, insuslts only make matters worse."

[Kaiden]

A proverb from Chevan: "When two men talk past each other, insuslts only make matters worse."

Riiiiiiiiiiiiiiight...

What is that supposed to mean again?

[Chevan]

Riiiiiiiiiiiiiiight...

What is that supposed to mean again?

It's my attempt at a subtle hint that things are getting out of hand and everybody should calm down and listen to each other. Give it an open mind.

[Guts/Batman]

Is it just me or am I not the only one who interprets 14-17 when I see the 6 -12 on the Japanese ratings?

The cultural difference between the Far East in general and the "Western" world are completely different.

The companiues have to dumb down the stuff to reach their "target audience" in America. If they ran it unedited they would fail to meet their target audience over here.

[Kaiden]

It's my attempt at a subtle hint that things are getting out of hand and everybody should calm down and listen to each other. Give it an open mind.

I'm trying to remain neutral on this issue.

[Cephus]

A proverb from Chevan: "When two men talk past each other, insuslts only make matters worse."

It's not a matter of insults, it's the fact that I'm getting sick and tired of some people thinking that just because a company plunks down money for a license, that obligates everyone to throw money at them for a product done badly.

Just because you put out a product doesn't mean it deserves to be supported. If we only supported quality, there would be more quality out there. The fact that anime fans fall all over themselves buying utter garbage, just because of some misguided desire to 'support the fandom' is why we have so much utter garbage floating around.

Just because a company throws money at a license doesn't mean that they deserve to be supported. There's a lot more to having a decent product than that.

[Chevan]

It's not a matter of insults, it's the fact that I'm getting sick and tired of some people thinking that just because a company plunks down money for a license, that obligates everyone to throw money at them for a product done badly.


It would be easier if you actually came up with a decent argument rather than smooching the US anime industry's backside.

Whether it's true or not, that's harsh, man.

[Guts/Batman]

Whether it's true or not, that's harsh, man.

Sometimes some people don't see eye. I don't see eye to eye with Paploo either.

Paploo is taking an extreme view of things.

[Chevan]

All I'm trying to say is that this is heating up past just not seeing eye-to-eye.

[Guts/Batman]

I understand what you're saying.

I don't think it is. People are putting forth there arguments and the others are putting up there arguments. I haven't seen anything too insulting.

But this is not a topic that is easily argued without people getting testy.

[Paploo the Ewok]

Very slowly. Now, if I want to watch Gatchaman II or Dairugger XV or Hokuto no Ken or Tekkaman Blade or Mars Daybreak or heck, if you want to get out of the anime side, shows like Justirisers or Magiranger, how do you propose that happens? The number of shows that are *EVER* licensed in the US is pathetically small and the number of shows that are done right is even smaller. Pointing out a tiny percentage of shows that are being done relatively right (most of which after being ass-raped) really means nothing.

1- Well, it does take time to license, and do a quality packaging/translating job on a series. And a DVD every other month works out to almost an episode a week, which is what you'd get if it aired on tv. When companies rush a license into production, we get stuff like the error ridden Sailor Moon S dub [though we got a better SuperS dub due to fan complaints, and of course, subbed versions].
Mars Daybreak is coming out from Bandai. I think you should be able to get the whole series on 3 or 4 DVD's, with Vol.1 already out. It's not a race to see it first, and it doesn't hurt to wait to see a show.
Gatchaman II is coming out once ADV finished Gatchaman's release, which should be before winter. A TON of shows are licensed for the US within a year of their japanese release, and those that are missed out tend to get picked up later on. No, we can't get everything, but not everythjing would sell, y'know. If you wanna see them, import the japanese DVD's or VHS. Lots of fans do that, and if you know where to look, it can be somewhat affordable.
PS- there are some comapnies releasing Sentai Shows. Let them know there's an interest in a given series. Several Kikaiida, Masked Rider, and Ultraman shwos have gotten legit subbed releases on small labels from non-anime companies.


I don't care if they ignore me, I'm not their target audience. I might have been back in the late 60s/early 70s, but it's been a long, long time since then.

Wow, you're pretty old. Given you're stance, I'd of thought you were some teenager. You've been around long enough to see the market grow. How long have you been watching anime? Thought mind you, I think it'd great that you're still in the fandom, and if you got into it later on in life, hey, even better ^_^
I believe that anime's important, and worthwhile, but it really shouldn'
t be taken that seriously.
http://www.tcp.com/~doi/images/kigurumi/stars-nbashi/ami-usa1.jpg
Y'know, it's supposed to be fun. Fan Ranting takes the fun out of it, and the fun out of enjoying One Piece in any form.



Yeah, where are all 109 episodes available, completely uncut, in the US? Oh, and make sure you tell us about Hokuto no Ken 2 as well.

Well, we have 36 of them. We have the OVA. We have the movie, though it's in "transition" [ie- out of print, but given it's popularity and classic standing, I doubt we'll never see it again]. If Manga's dvd's sell, and ADV's OVA release was popular [I think it was, and they'll probably pick up the new movie and OVA's], then I think that someone licensing epsidoes 37+ [which given what Manga has said, is entirely possible, as the yonly own the first 36 eps] is possible, I imagine subtitled boxsets. If not, well, there's tons of other licensed anime you can watch, or anime you can import, or anime you can find used on VHS that's out of print.
Is it perfect? No. But at least it's legal. HongKong bootlegf DVD's are often made by organized crime, and fansubs, while not as harmful, aren't great for the industry.
I never said that you shouldn't download them though. I'm just saying, don't download licensed stuff. Don't download licensed manga or anime. I think the yhave their place , for truly obscure stuff. The latest Gundam series from Japan that Bandai's already contracted to release? No, not really.
And nowadays, so much stuff gets picked up, and such a diversity, that supporting the anime industry would work to yours and everyone's favor. i don't think that there's anything that's truly unlicensable,m outside of shows caught up in legal issues, which are a VERY VERY limited number of shwos [ie- Candy Candy, which is really just about IT. Very few cases get drawn out in court this long, and rarely interfere with anime production/licensing. That's why we've been able to get most of Macross, with Macross Zero being NEW and uncompleted, so probably not up for license yet, and Macross 7 caught up in music licenses being too high- meaning companies are probably waitin till it goes down]



I just said I don't like how unethical some subbers are, and how some make it into a cliche that takes itself FAR too seriously.



That's why you can't look at Japanese age ratings. Something that might be rated for ages 8-12 in Japan would never fly for 15-17 year olds in the US. Very little of what comes over here would get a kiddy rating if left uncut, that's why they slash it to hell.

But therein lies you're problem-- you're talking about the handful of titles 4KIDS owns. In comparison to the literally thousands of episodes ADV must have released, or the vast libraries of Pioneer or Media Blasters. Heck, even CPM and Animeigo have libraries larger then 4 kids. And it's not like Pokemon's high art, or large parts of it are edited out.....
And it's not like 4Kids has said outright "No No You Can't Have It", they have declared that yes, they do plan on eventually getting it out. It's just that in order to get this stuff on TV, compromises have to be made.

What you're talking about only applies to television, and even then to a limited number of shows, primarily on network television. It's a limited and very self-conceived view of the overall induistry



It would be easier if you actually came up with a decent argument rather than smooching the US anime industry's backside. The fact is, the shows that we want to see are not available in large numbers in the format we want, therefore, for as long as that is true, fansubbing and downloading will exist.
Deal with it.

No need to get hostile ^_^ I base my arguement on logic, and the fact that if anything's popular with those who'll buy such things, eventually we'll see an unedited release of it [so uncut Kirby? Probably not. Uncut One Piece? Probably yes]. Plus the fact that several of the titles you listed have aired o nYTV editred, but gotr unedited DVD releases. It's not a strong narrative.

If you want to see a show made available, instead of complaining, take it right to anime companies. Tell them you want it. You'd be surprised how often it can work. It might take awhile, but it's not impossible.

i'm not saying the industry's perfect, but it's certainly not a hellhole of anime-ruining. And can you stop the personal attacks? They don't help your argument.

[Paploo the Ewok]

Sometimes some people don't see eye. I don't see eye to eye with Paploo either.

Paploo is taking an extreme view of things.


And how is what you're doing any different?

[Azangel]

Ok, kids... if you don't behave, starting now, I will make sure you get time outs and go sit in the corner. Got that?

See what happens when I trust you to behave while I'm sick as all hell and not watching you like a hawk?

First off: Fansubs are IN REALITY, not LEGAL. Neither are scanilations.
(At least when discussing products being released here, like Naruto and One Piece.) Hell, even when they AREN'T being released here, they're not really, oh... legit.

I could very easily ban all discussion of Scanilations and Fansubs on the board, and I WOULD BE in the RIGHT. Because CBR could be held responsible when you guys post links, etc etc.

Second: if I see the term 'corporate ass kisser', or any variation therof, again, the person using it will be getting a quick board ban, no discussion.

GOT IT???