Various comments about the last few PD's

[Briareos]

Just wanted to throw out some comments about some of the topics you've talked about Steven:

1. What is your favorite Bret Hart match? I loved when he beat Curt Henning (Mr. Perfect) for the intercontinental title at Summerslam. I was surprised that happened since he was treated as a jobber to the stars before then (I remember seeing him lose to Perfect on the old monday night USA show before it became RAW it use to have one semi competitive match in there).

2. You mentioned that Bush may have "pushed" O'connor to resign. I'm wondering how exactly since presidents have basically 0 leverage on Supreme Court Justices (There is no way to remove them from the bench actually)?

3. Well yes Cuba was able to evacuate everyone from the Hurricane areas its easy to do that when your a dictator and you have your army go to the people and say "Come with us or we shoot you"

4. I think that Brown should be fired though.

5. You know if they had shot the first 10 or 12 looters that started looting New Orleans would be a much safer place. Remember those Stores that had armed guards patroling the roof during the early 90's riots in Los Angeles. Those stores didn't get touched.

6. And you have the New York Times blaiming Republicans for removing 14 billion from a bill to improve the levies in New Orleans and then having them earlier (this was the section that newspapers devote to the official newspaper position on a topic so it wasn't two different people) say that the 14 billion was pork.

7. To suggest that global warming and man made causes had anything to do with this is silly. So basically we're suppose to ignore the years when those people predicting that hurricane's would be worse this year were wrong all those other years. Its how Paul Krugman got famous. He spent a decade predicting a econmic downturn all through the 90's that when the natural business cycle hit a downturn in 2000 he's all of a sudden a genius.

[NatGertler]

You know if they had shot the first 10 or 12 looters that started looting New Orleans would be a much safer place.Yes, because dead people don't cause trouble. And I'm not talking about the folks you shot, I'm talking about those who starved to death because they were kept from food. Accessing food is a lot of the "looting" that has gone on.

To suggest that global warming and man made causes had anything to do with this is silly.Ahhh, that's the way to refute science: call it silly. Yes, there is plenty of reason to believe that global warming is leading to more severe weather patterns.

[Dennis]

what if there was some lil organic market in the area. would we see looters desperately trying to steal trays of wheatgrass? along with the probiotics. and especially sublingual vitamin b12 cuz we know most looters are raw vegans.

[Inkthinker]

3. Well yes Cuba was able to evacuate everyone from the Hurricane areas its easy to do that when your a dictator and you have your army go to the people and say "Come with us or we shoot you"

Except that I kinda doubt that was really necessary, since I'm pretty sure that the Cuban people understand that when a Cat 3-5 is coming your way, you GET OUT OF THE WAY, at least as well as you can. They see one or three of these every year now, and considering the size of Cuba, their options are even more limited than ours would be. Part of the reason that this has been such a total poochbang is that no-one was taking it seriously until it was ridiculously obvious just how serious it really was, and by then it was far, far too late.

People at the top of the chain were woefully misinformed to painfully ridiculous degrees, when you have the heads of FEMA and DHS arguing with reporters about the factuality of the Convention Center, and constant masses of the poor saying, "we didn't know what to do, we didn't know it would be like this, and when it happened we didn't know where to go".

The government gambled that this wouldn't happen, they've placed incompetent bureaucrats in important positions of responsibility, they stripped funds for plans and policies that would have saved lives, and now someone's head needs to roll. Brown's seems certain, Chertoff's ought to be included just for his pigheaded ignorance of the events as they were happening, and beyond that it's going to emphasize the fact that the people in charge care more about gains for the wealthy (which includes themselves) than for the welfare of the people or this nation.

[fumetti]

Steven is right that Bush's response to Katrina isn't racially motivated. Bush doesn't care about poor white people either.

4. I think that Brown should be fired though.

Can't stop at Brown. Bush says he's doing a "good job." Ergo, he's doing precisely what he was hired to do: nothing. The blame goes straight to the top on this one. Packing FEMA with campaign workers instead of people with disaster managment experience is damn near malfeasance.

5. You know if they had shot the first 10 or 12 looters that started looting New Orleans would be a much safer place. Remember those Stores that had armed guards patroling the roof during the early 90's riots in Los Angeles. Those stores didn't get touched.

This discussion shows how much Americans really favor property over people. Why anyone would fuss over their TV set when they could be helping save someone's life is beyond me. I wouldn't expose one single life to danger for all the TVs in New Orleans. There is something horrible about many America's irrational materialism.

7. To suggest that global warming and man made causes had anything to do with this is silly. So basically we're suppose to ignore the years when those people predicting that hurricane's would be worse this year were wrong all those other years. Its how Paul Krugman got famous. He spent a decade predicting a econmic downturn all through the 90's that when the natural business cycle hit a downturn in 2000 he's all of a sudden a genius.

Silly? How is it silly that global warming causes the average ocean temperature to rise, and that hurricanes get faster when the water is warmer? Result= global warming leads to more devastating hurricanes.

Predictions about the levees failing wasn't just by one paranoid reporter. Many experts beat that drum as well. The city and state's lack of effort to improve them is definitely a "man made cause," and Bush's redirection of money is equally as "man made" (as is his cronyistic hiring of incompetent FEMA personnel).

It's not an accident that both Bush I and II had scandalous responses to hurricanes (Andrew and Katrina) after using FEMA as a dumping ground for patronage jobs to unqualified people. Just as it's not an accident that FEMA was a vastly more competent agency under Clinton, who insisted on the hiring of experienced people.

Once again, Bush makes Clinton look like a great president...

[badMike]

People at the top of the chain were woefully misinformed to painfully ridiculous degrees, when you have the heads of FEMA and DHS arguing with reporters about the factuality of the Convention Center, and constant masses of the poor saying, "we didn't know what to do, we didn't know it would be like this, and when it happened we didn't know where to go".That's their bullshit excuses AFTER the fact in classic CYA maneuvers. Lots of documents coming out the past couple days showing that these assholes were EXACTLY informed about how deadly the storm was going to be and they still didn't do anything. There were video conferences, official letters sent and all kinds of stuff. Brown didn't do anything. Chertoff didn't do anything. Rumsfeld didn't do anything. And the fucking president didn't anything. Wanna fire someone? How about ALL of them!

[mjm1231]

Just wanted to throw out some comments about some of the topics you've talked about Steven:
5. You know if they had shot the first 10 or 12 looters that started looting New Orleans would be a much safer place. Remember those Stores that had armed guards patroling the roof during the early 90's riots in Los Angeles. Those stores didn't get touched.How about this instead? Have national guard/local police/whoever the hell is available take over those stores and use them to distribute groceries and other neccessities, eliminating the need for looting as a survival tool, and allowing the law to come down hard on looters who are trying to make an economic gain from it. The owners of the stores could apply to be repaid by the government for the goods distributed.

[bartl]

2. You mentioned that Bush may have "pushed" O'connor to resign. I'm wondering how exactly since presidents have basically 0 leverage on Supreme Court Justices (There is no way to remove them from the bench actually)?
It's called "impeachment".

[Steven Grant]

I don't have time to go into all of these right now, but let's take a couple of them:

Just wanted to throw out some comments about some of the topics you've talked about Steven:

1. What is your favorite Bret Hart match? I loved when he beat Curt Henning (Mr. Perfect) for the intercontinental title at Summerslam. I was surprised that happened since he was treated as a jobber to the stars before then (I remember seeing him lose to Perfect on the old monday night USA show before it became RAW it use to have one semi competitive match in there).

Boy, there are so many good Bret Hart matches. His I-C victory over Hennig was great. He had half a dozen phenomenal matches with Owen Hart. The match in England where he lost the I-C title to the British Bulldog was a nearly perfect match in every respect. There was his match with Chris Benoit. And Bret could carry guys who could barely move, like Kevin Nash and "Isaac Yankem" to phenomenal matches. Bret first came to everyone's attention by jobbing to a guy named Tom something, a muscleman Vince decided was going to be the next Hogan. This was around '86. Vince was so hot on this guy that before Tom's first match, Vince was openly telling people they'd be watching a great future world champion in action. And he was dead right, he had just picked the wrong participant. The basically unknown Bret Hart was Tom's opponent that night and made him look utterly fabulous in the ring. It wasn't until Vince started Tom on a house show run against other opponents that he realized Tom looked great but couldn't even move at sub-Hogan levels.

All things considered, I'd probably say the Bret Hart-Steve Austin "I Quit" match was Bret's greatest match. It ensured Austin's standing as a superstar, turned Austin face and Bret heel simultaneously, played ring psychology perfectly, was exciting as hell, and was basically the match that saved the WWF/WWE in the '90s by creating their biggest star and generating a feud that held the attention of fans for two years. And Bret came out of it looking like a monster for the first time in his career. (Not a physical monster, of course, but in terms of what he was willing to do to his opponents.) But if I thought about it another ten minutes, I could probably come up with a dozen more contenders...

5. You know if they had shot the first 10 or 12 looters that started looting New Orleans would be a much safer place. Remember those Stores that had armed guards patroling the roof during the early 90's riots in Los Angeles. Those stores didn't get touched.

I'm guessing you weren't going to find a lot of armed guards willing to hang around after the town got flooded. I think you also have to differentiate between the "audiences." The Rodney King verdict pissed off a lot of people, but it wasn't a desperate situation. The people who took part in the Rodney King riots were venting, and looting as venting, yeah. There's a good argument for putting the clamp on that. In New Orleans, however, we're talking about a whole mass of people who were essentially in shock, people who had just had pretty much everything in their lives wiped out, including food and water, not to mention everything they owned but the clothes on their back and for many of them those clothes were waterlogged. A lot of the stores looted, the owners had locked the doors and left town and there was food on the shelves, or in dairy cases or refrigerators, just sitting there rotting because there wasn't any electricity. I've got nothing against people "looting" things like that, and I think in this instance it was probably wise to turn a blind eye toward that kind of looting, as Wal-Mart did. (They issued an edict telling flood victims, hey, you want it, go in and get it, it's yours, on us. Sure, they were being looted anyway, but that took it out of the realm of criminality.) The really revolting types of looting in New Orleans came later, when the various reported "armed bands of men" started roaming the city, reportedly in some cases invading houses and murdering the residents. There's no question in my mind that they should be found and prosecuted, but for murder. But since there was necessary as well as unnecessary looting, and since public agencies weren't making much effort to get food and water to the survivors in New Orleans, I don't think it's worth trying to differentiate between the two, and had people started shooting people just trying to find food and water it REALLY would have looked bad. Unless you want to adopt a policy of "Don't shoot until you see the dot pattern of their widescreen TV."

6. And you have the New York Times blaiming Republicans for removing 14 billion from a bill to improve the levies in New Orleans and then having them earlier (this was the section that newspapers devote to the official newspaper position on a topic so it wasn't two different people) say that the 14 billion was pork.

There are a lot of reasons I don't read the New York Times...

7. To suggest that global warming and man made causes had anything to do with this is silly. So basically we're suppose to ignore the years when those people predicting that hurricane's would be worse this year were wrong all those other years. Its how Paul Krugman got famous. He spent a decade predicting a econmic downturn all through the 90's that when the natural business cycle hit a downturn in 2000 he's all of a sudden a genius.

It's true that even a stopped clock is right twice a day, as Gorilla Monsoon was fond of saying. However, there is at least some evidence that global warming (computer models) has intensified hurricane activity in the
last decade, and while I agree that it's hardly dead conclusive it's not exactly voodoo science either. Hurricanes on average have been getting more severe. Caused the hurricane? No. Contributed to it? Possible. It's a possibility that's at least worth more study.

[Steven Grant]

Can't stop at Brown.

Yeah, it's not that I think Brown shouldn't be fired, but I don't think he should be scapegoated either. Which I suspect will ultimately happened. He'll be the new George Tenet, meekly tendering his resignation and falling on his sword so everyone else can say "See? Nothing to do with US!"

For the good of the country, of course...

[Steven Grant]

It's called "impeachment".

Heh. Yeah, but that sword cuts both ways, particularly with this administration...

[Inkthinker]

The thing about warmer waters and stronger hurricanes isn't even advanced Earth Sciences, by the way, folks... we are talking basic high-school BS here, it doesn't matter if you think that the "jury is still out" on global warming, (and that jury's full of "judicial activists" anyway, so even if they say it's happening, they're just legislating from the bench under the direction of the special interests), it's still a fact of nature and physics that warmer water = stronger, more frequent hurricanes.

Hurricanes derive their strength from pressures, pressures created by temperatures and precipitation in the air (I believe?). Warmer water evaporates more easily, thus is more easily absorbed by the storm, thus the storm has greater pressure, higher winds, stronger and heavier rains, and thus it is more likely to stomp your squishy ass into the street. I watched Katrina form up just before it hit, and that monster had a solid, almost vertical eye wall that was clearly visible from space, which looked to be about 20 miles in diameter!! The air pressure needed to form that sort of physical event is enormous, and that requires certain understood, verifiable conditions in order to develop. Those conditions are beginning to exist, and all evidence indicates that they are worsening.

We KNOW that the temperature of the Gulf is up a degree or so over the last few decades. This is KNOWN, it is recorded by independant nonpolitical scientific observers who's only jobs are to gather verifiable FACTS. And that single degree of temperature makes this certainly the busiest hurricane season that I can recall, and I live on the Gulf Coast.

Whether you think that's part of the natural cycle or that it's a result of man's interference with his environment, it's still happening, and to not recognize that and prepare for the results constitutes incompetence, even malfeasance, on the part of the agency that was supposed to be responsible for these things.

I don't think anyone should expect them to be there before the storm even hits, but for the admins to dither in red tape and so forth for as much as two-three days before getting people there in major force is ridiculous, and people died because of it.

[Briareos]

Actually I'm pretty sure there is no way to remove a supreme court judge. There's no impeachment procedure. Once your on the supreme court your there for life or till you decide to resign.

[NatGertler]

Actually I'm pretty sure there is no way to remove a supreme court judge. There's no impeachment procedure.Actually, there is, and it's been used once, literally 200 years ago, against Samuel Chase.

[Adam Crocker]

3. Well yes Cuba was able to evacuate everyone from the Hurricane areas its easy to do that when your a dictator and you have your army go to the people and say "Come with us or we shoot you"

Even assuming that the Cuban government used its dictatorial power to force evacuation that still does not sufficiently explain its stronger performance in evacuating than the in New Orleans. While the balance of blame for the failure of evacuation efforts is difficult to assess, they clearly were lacking compared to Cuba. Proper evacuation would still require that there is a plan in place for it alongside sufficient manpower and resources to carry it out, as well as properly implementing the plan. Clearly such a plan was lacking in many of the areas hit by the hurricane, particularly New Orleans, or it was not carried out. Moreover, in the aftermath of the hurricane the Federal response was not only lacking, but inept with many of the top officials in FEMA seemingly in the dark about the situation on the ground.

[fumetti]

Barbara Bush says: "Let'em eat cake!"

http://news.yahoo.com/s/thenation/20050906/cm_thenation/120080;_ylt=Aq18NR4dfXMn94UCpewcM0us0NUE;_ylu=X3oD MTA3ODdxdHBhBHNlYwM5NjQ

It's time to hit those ingrateful fuckers with a tax hike.

There's already enough of a link between the NO failures (from lack of funds) and Georgie's massive tax cuts for the wealthy, MAKE THEM PAY IT BACK. We need that money in this time of crisis.

[Briareos]

Actually, there is, and it's been used once, literally 200 years ago, against Samuel Chase.

Ah ok I thought it was impossible to keep the supreme court seperate completely from the other branches. But it still doesn't really hurt my main point. That was so improbable that Bush still had 0 leverage even if he did suggest that she resign.

oh by the way Steven you know who Issac Yankum is?

[Steven Grant]

oh by the way Steven you know who Issac Yankum is?
Yes, I do, but let's not spoil it for the others.

Let's just say that, given his performance as Isaac, it's startling that he came as far as he did, though, now that I think of it, he hasn't been around in the last few weeks. But he does have his movie to promote, so that's probably keeping him busy...

[jhauge]

In regards to hurricane activity, it has been observed that hurricane activity is cyclical and lasts for decades. We have high decades of activity and low decades of activity. Since the mid to late 90's, it's been above average.

http://www.livescience.com/forcesofnature/050831_hurricane_freq.html

The past 10 years have seen more ferocious and more frequent hurricanes in the Atlantic Ocean and scientists are confident that there will be more to come. While some studies have suggested that global warming may be a contributing factor, many meteorologists instead believe that it is just part of a natural cycle.



The Atlantic hurricane season generally runs from the beginning of June to the end of November and produces approximately 10 named storms, approximately six of which turn into hurricanes.

Yet early in August, the government greatly boosted their forecasts for hurricanes this season, predicting that we could be in store for 7 to 9 hurricanes before late November when the Atlantic hurricane season ends. This is in addition to the seven hurricanes that have already occurred since the start of the season in June.

Some studies have suggested that global warming may be causing increases in hurricane intensity and frequency, but many scientists are skeptical.

“All signs that I’ve seen show that it’s related to natural variability,” said Eric Blake, a meteorologist at the National Hurricane Center (NHC). “There could be some impact of global warming, but its role is probably a secondary or tertiary role.”

Chris Landsea, a meteorologist at the Atlantic Oceanographic and Meteorological Laboratory (AOML), agrees and doesn’t believe there is currently enough science to back up the claim.


While many computer models predict that global warming will increase over the next century, the models disagree about what its effect on hurricane frequency will be.

“It’s been a mixed bag,” Landsea told LiveScience. “Some models suggest there will be more hurricanes, some less, and others suggest that it will depend on the area.”

Contrasting an earlier study, Landsea predicts that even if global warming were to increase over the next 100 years, its effects on hurricane intensity will be minor, resulting in perhaps a 5% increase in rainfall and winds.

Instead of being due to global warming, Landsea believes that the current increase in hurricane activity is part of a natural cycle that scientists call the Atlantic multi-decadal mode. Every 20 to 40 years, Atlantic Ocean and atmospheric conditions conspire to produce just the right conditions to cause increased storm and hurricane activity.

The Atlantic Ocean is currently going through an active period of hurricane activity that began in 1995 and that has continued to the present. Scientists consider the period prior to that—the years from 1971 to 1994—to be a quiet period of low hurricane activity.

“Coring work in the Central Atlantic show that such cycles have been occurring for centuries if not more than a thousand years,” Landsea said.

So while it is true that hurricanes are getting stronger and appearing at greater frequencies over the past few decades, it’s only to be expected, Landsea said.

Stan Goldenberg, a meteorologist also from AOML, gave a simple analogy: “It’s like if you’re sitting in New York, and in July it hits 95 degrees, and you say ‘My goodness, back only 6 months ago we were 5 below zero, this is clearly a trend, this must be global warming!’”

Goldenberg pointed out that the current active hurricane period is very similar in both frequency and intensity to the previous active period, which lasted from the late 1920’s to 1970.

Another factor that may be contributing to the illusion that hurricanes are becoming fiercer and appearing more frequently is that hurricane detection and monitoring instruments improved dramatically during the last century.

“The counts from the late 1920’s to the late 1960’s are probably less than what actually occurred, because we didn’t have satellites looking down from space and monitoring everything all the time,” Landsea said.

But even if the increase in hurricane activity is natural people need to still stay alert, Goldenberg said. “For this year, it ain’t over, and people need to be prepared.”

[jhauge]

Even assuming that the Cuban government used its dictatorial power to force evacuation that still does not sufficiently explain its stronger performance in evacuating than the in New Orleans. While the balance of blame for the failure of evacuation efforts is difficult to assess, they clearly were lacking compared to Cuba. Proper evacuation would still require that there is a plan in place for it alongside sufficient manpower and resources to carry it out, as well as properly implementing the plan. Clearly such a plan was lacking in many of the areas hit by the hurricane, particularly New Orleans, or it was not carried out. Moreover, in the aftermath of the hurricane the Federal response was not only lacking, but inept with many of the top officials in FEMA seemingly in the dark about the situation on the ground.

Perhaps Cuba has evacuation proceedures and follows them?

Emergency Plans for the State of Lousiana and New Orleans.

http://64.233.167.104/search?q=cache:_je6xBAh_AgJ:www.ohsep.louisiana.go v/plans/EOPSupplement1a.pdf+new+orleans+evacuation+plan&hl=en&client=firefox-a

Part II: Section B Point 5

The primary means of hurricane evacuation will be personal vehicles. School and municipal buses, government-owned vehicles and vehicles provided by volunteer agencies may be used to provide transportation for individuals who lack transportation and require assistance in evacuating.

They were also to have plans for nursing homes, hospitals etc.

Part II: Section B Point 14

Hospitals, nursing homes, group homes, etc. will have pre-determined evacuation and/or refuge plans if evacuation becomes necessary. All facilities will have approved Multi-Hazard Emergency Operations Plans as mandated by the State of Louisiana, Dept. of Health and Hospitals (DHH). Before operating permits are given to homes/hospitals, emergency precautions are to be taken, such as the placement of emergency supplies and equipment (i.e., generators and potable water) on upper floors.

[mjm1231]

...School and municipal buses, government-owned vehicles and vehicles provided by volunteer agencies may be used to provide transportation for individuals who lack transportation and require assistance in evacuating
When they say "may be", do they mean that as in "maybe next time"?

[fumetti]

While some studies have suggested that global warming may be a contributing factor, many meteorologists instead believe that it is just part of a natural cycle.

I accept that causal links to global warming are speculative. But the environmental nay-sayers often remind me of the movie "Erik the Viking."

I'd rather be standing on a firm island beside a lunatic saying the island is sinking....than be standing on a sinking island with a lunatic saying "nope, this isn't happening."

If we follow the global warming theorists, the worst we'll get is a better environment. If we follow the other side, the best we'll get is a continually deteriorating environment. (And the worst is a nearly lifeless planet.)

[Inkthinker]

I think a large portion of the "environmental naysayers" are those who also happen to have a stake in things the way they are.

If our leaders are intricately linked to the oil industry (which they are), does anyone really expect these same people to support anything else? Of course they're going to deny anything that implies the continued use of fossil fuels is damaging, and of course they're going to stonewall any progress towards an energy source or fuel method that they won't profit from. It's not in their immediate interests, and they don't seem to much care about long-term interests.

I don't understand why there's any question about this. It seems rather obvious to me, and I'm not even the Master of the Obvious.