The Devil

[PatrickG]

Okay, I've scoured the Bible high and low for the story of Lucifer, fallen angel who becomes the Devil.

It isn't in there.

It's in the Talmud but not the Bible.

Satan appears in Job. But the whole "war in Heaven" backstory doesn't appear there.

It seems to me you have to reinterpret a lot to arrive at the Miltonian version of events.

Or you have to consider more books than the Bible to be divinely inspired.

To be frank, it seems to have less credibility than the flat earth scenario in Biblical terms.

Now, I'm not denying there's a Satan in Christian theology but there's really not a lot of basis for assuming that he's a fallen angel.

There's The Dragon, The Beast, Satan, The Devil... None of which are necessarily the same entity.

And as for Lucifer, the King James version reads:

How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations! (Isiah 14:12)

However, in the NIV:

How you have fallen from heaven, O morning star, son of the dawn! You have been cast down to the earth, you who once laid low the nations!

Lucifer seems to have been interpreted as a proper name in the King James and as a descriptive term in other translations.

Nave's topical Bible says this is a reference to Nebuchadnezzar.

So... Really, where's the basis for equating Satan and the Devil? Or equating Satan with the serpent in Eden?

See what I'm getting at? I think this literary dogma has twisted judeo-Christian theology around.

[west3man]

Interesting as heck.

I don't have much to contribute at this point, but I'll be in the next column of "viewers." :)

[Jared_Humpherys]

I haven't read my Bible in a while, but isn't there almost as little mention of Hell as well?

[PatrickG]

I haven't read my Bible in a while, but isn't there almost as little mention of Hell as well?

Fair point.

A literal and critical reading would distinguish between Hell and the lake of fire.

I'm not aware of any major Christian denominations which are build upon a critical reading of the text, stripping out all dogmas and interpretations post-Trent.

[Night]

Okay, I've scoured the Bible high and low for the story of Lucifer, fallen angel who becomes the Devil.

It isn't in there.

It's in the Talmud but not the Bible.

Satan appears in Job. But the whole "war in Heaven" backstory doesn't appear there.

It seems to me you have to reinterpret a lot to arrive at the Miltonian version of events.

Or you have to consider more books than the Bible to be divinely inspired.

To be frank, it seems to have less credibility than the flat earth scenario in Biblical terms.
I’m not saying that more books are not divinely inspired, but beware, many books are enemy inspired. Read with caution. When I prayed on whether to explore other religious works, the answer I got was “know the Bible first”. And by that I don’t mean skim or read parts of… know the whole thing. Then if you go to other works keep what you know in mind from the Bible and pray before reading so that you will not be deceived. It is way too easy to become deceived.

The fall of Satan is not in human history so it’s not going to be in the places where they’re keeping record of eye witness events unless you go to one who was there. And the seventy returned again with joy, saying, Lord, even the devils are subject unto us through thy name. And he said unto them, "I beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven. Behold, I give unto you power to tread on serpents and scorpions, and over all the power of the enemy: and nothing shall by any means hurt you. " (Luke 10:17-19 ISV) Now, I'm not denying there's a Satan in Christian theology but there's really not a lot of basis for assuming that he's a fallen angel.

There's The Dragon, The Beast, Satan, The Devil... None of which are necessarily the same entity.

And as for Lucifer, the King James version reads:

How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations! (Isiah 14:12)

However, in the NIV:

How you have fallen from heaven, O morning star, son of the dawn! You have been cast down to the earth, you who once laid low the nations!

Lucifer seems to have been interpreted as a proper name in the King James and as a descriptive term in other translations.

Nave's topical Bible says this is a reference to Nebuchadnezzar.

So... Really, where's the basis for equating Satan and the Devil? Or equating Satan with the serpent in Eden?

See what I'm getting at? I think this literary dogma has twisted judeo-Christian theology around. First of all, if you're going to be picky in your reading to debate over a name or a single word, might I suggest abandoning English as a study language. The Bible wasn't written in English and more that it was written in a very poetic form in places. Furthermore it was written a very long time ago where some idioms were used that are lost. The name Satan just means enemy or accuser and in the original languages, when not used as a name is just used as the word it means. As for equating the names for the Devil try And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels, And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven. And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him. (Revelation 12:7-9)

[kingpin51]

its in the the book of enoch

[Rabid Trekkie]

Okay, I've scoured the Bible high and low for the story of Lucifer, fallen angel who becomes the Devil.

It isn't in there.

It's in the Talmud but not the Bible.

Satan appears in Job. But the whole "war in Heaven" backstory doesn't appear there.

It seems to me you have to reinterpret a lot to arrive at the Miltonian version of events.

Or you have to consider more books than the Bible to be divinely inspired.

To be frank, it seems to have less credibility than the flat earth scenario in Biblical terms.

Now, I'm not denying there's a Satan in Christian theology but there's really not a lot of basis for assuming that he's a fallen angel.

There's The Dragon, The Beast, Satan, The Devil... None of which are necessarily the same entity.

And as for Lucifer, the King James version reads:

How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations! (Isiah 14:12)

However, in the NIV:

How you have fallen from heaven, O morning star, son of the dawn! You have been cast down to the earth, you who once laid low the nations!

Lucifer seems to have been interpreted as a proper name in the King James and as a descriptive term in other translations.

Nave's topical Bible says this is a reference to Nebuchadnezzar.

So... Really, where's the basis for equating Satan and the Devil? Or equating Satan with the serpent in Eden?

See what I'm getting at? I think this literary dogma has twisted judeo-Christian theology around.

Just like there are a ton of names for the Messiah in the Bible (Immanuel, Jesus, Son of God, Son of Man, etc.) there are several names for Satan. I haven't read Nave's topical Bible, my Dad has but I just prefer a simple King James, so I'm not going to positively say that it got something wrong but if you continue reading down to Isaiah 14:20 I think the ground for claiming it is talking about Nebuchanezzar isn't very solid.

Revelation 12:7 mentions a dragon (big symbol of evil in christianity) that has its own army of angels and does battle with the armies of heaven. This expands on what was mentioned in the fourth verse of the same chapter where a dragon's tail drew a third of the stars. Jesus when talking about the future judgement also briefly mentions the devil and his angels.

Also Ezekial 28:12 also speaks of the actions of Satan/Lucifer but instead calls him the King of Tyre. It is obvious though that the passage (which ends at verse 19) isn't referring to any mortal of this Earth as I don't ever recall any person being called a "covering cherub". 2 Corinthians 11:14 even says
that Satan still appears as an angel of light.

As for the snake in Eden being Satan, that is inferred from two things. One is that in Revelations Satan is called "that old serpent" and later on in the sentence it says that he deceived the world. The other part that the serpent=Satan thing comes from is God's prophesy about the serpent when he curses it back in Genesis.

Hope this helps.

[Michael P]

Paging Dr. McEnery...

[BlairH]

It's in the new testament that we see the Devil's true colours (tempting Jesus etc). This is also where we are introduced to our understanding of hell.

[Sanagi]

What I always wonder about is the idea of the "Great Deceiver." Doesn't it negate faith to believe in a powerful entity whose goal is to deceive you? How can you trust anything, even the Bible, if such an entity exists? All the events of your life could just be a calculated scheme designed to put you on the wrong path. Salvation becomes an arbitrary matter of whether Satan cares to screw up your life or not.

[Rabid Trekkie]

What I always wonder about is the idea of the "Great Deceiver." Doesn't it negate faith to believe in a powerful entity whose goal is to deceive you? How can you trust anything, even the Bible, if such an entity exists? All the events of your life could just be a calculated scheme designed to put you on the wrong path. Salvation becomes an arbitrary matter of whether Satan cares to screw up your life or not.

Because for a great lie there must be a great truth. The character of Satan as revealed in the Bible says that he can not do anything to benefit someone and that he hates God. Would someone who hates God write/inspire a work that teaches us of God's love? God works just as hard to save souls as Satan does to cause them to be lost.

[Sanagi]

Because for a great lie there must be a great truth. The character of Satan as revealed in the Bible says that he can not do anything to benefit someone and that he hates God. Would someone who hates God write/inspire a work that teaches us of God's love? God works just as hard to save souls as Satan does to cause them to be lost.
But my point is, if Satan is out there deceiving people, it's impossible to find that truth. It's impossible to know what "saved" and "lost" even mean. Would Satan inspire someone to teach God's love? Yes, obviously he would, if having such a person under his control would allow him to deceive more people.

[Rabid Trekkie]

But my point is, if Satan is out there deceiving people, it's impossible to find that truth. It's impossible to know what "saved" and "lost" even mean. Would Satan inspire someone to teach God's love? Yes, obviously he would, if having such a person under his control would allow him to deceive more people.

And those people are known by their actions. For one example, Fred Phelps or anyone else who claims the love of Jesus while holding up slanderous signs at a funeral.

[Sanagi]

And those people are known by their actions. For one example, Fred Phelps or anyone else who claims the love of Jesus while holding up slanderous signs at a funeral.
No, Satan is supposed to be good at deceit. Phelps is an obvious freak. Way too unsubtle to be Satan's work.

[Charles RB]

No, Satan is supposed to be good at deceit. Phelps is an obvious freak. Way too unsubtle to be Satan's work.

What, Satan can't have his off days?

[Rabid Trekkie]

No, Satan is supposed to be good at deceit. Phelps is an obvious freak. Way too unsubtle to be Satan's work.

How many people does he have influence over? Or Pat Robertson? I'll even go so far as to say the late pastor John Osteen of Lake Wood Church here in Houston after what was done to my aunt. Just because something is obvious doesn't make it good.

[Night]

How many people does he have influence over? Or Pat Robertson? I'll even go so far as to say the late pastor John Osteen of Lake Wood Church here in Houston after what was done to my aunt. Just because something is obvious doesn't make it good. I didn't know you were a Houstonian. I'm sorry to hear that something bad affected your aunt.

There's a problem with putting the voice of a person over the voice of God. After all even some of the most God fearing people have times and areas that they were speaking the lies of Satan. The Apostle Peter whom Jesus trusted to start his church once spoke the words of the Devil. In fact, one could say that Peter tempted Jesus not to go to the cross for us. From that time on, Jesus began to show his disciples that he would have to go to Jerusalem and suffer a great deal because of the elders, the high priests, and the scribes. Then he would be killed, but on the third day he would be raised. Peter took him aside and began to rebuke him, saying, “God be merciful to you, Lord! This must never happen to you!” But Jesus turned around and said to Peter, “Get behind me, Satan! You are an offense to me, for you are not thinking God's thoughts but human thoughts!” (Matt 16:21-23 ISV) People who evangelize to many are prime targets for the adversary, because many people trust their words. But my point is, if Satan is out there deceiving people, it's impossible to find that truth. It's impossible to know what "saved" and "lost" even mean. Would Satan inspire someone to teach God's love? Yes, obviously he would, if having such a person under his control would allow him to deceive more people. Yes, Satan appears as an “Angel of Light” However, it is not impossible. There’s a difference between knowing God and just knowing about God. You have to stay in the Word and pray. Talk to God and listen. And don’t trust people who give little scripture snippets… investigate the context of the words and see if it actually supports the point the person is trying to make. Then you will know it’s God spoken when you hear it. The gatekeeper opens the gate for him, and the sheep hear his voice and come to him; and he calls his own sheep by name and leads them out. He walks ahead of them; and they follow him, for they recognize his voice. They won't follow a stranger but will run from him, for they don't recognize his voice.''.(John 10:3-5 LVB) I have this friend who once gave me a message through a third party. I didn’t like what the message had to say, but I knew it was from the sender. Why, you ask… because I recognized the word choice and order. I recognized my friend’s “voice” even when filtered through a third party, and that only because I had listened to my friend enough to know. How do you start? Ask in prayer.

[Rabid Trekkie]

I didn't know you were a Houstonian. I'm sorry to hear that something bad affected your aunt.

There's a problem with putting the voice of a person over the voice of God. After all even some of the most God fearing people have times and areas that they were speaking the lies of Satan. The Apostle Peter whom Jesus trusted to start his church once spoke the words of the Devil. In fact, one could say that Peter tempted Jesus not to go to the cross for us.

Yep, well technically now I live in Pasadena but I still think of myself as a Houstonian.

Thanks for the condolences, it doesn't hurt as bad anymore. She was told that her cancer would go away if she just had enough faith and was told not to go to a doctor.

And your right about what you said about leaders, even good ones screw up. I had never thought about what Peter did like that before though.

I sent you a PM once, did you ever get it?