What's so great about HAWKEYE? [Archive] - Comic Book Resources Forums

Schmakt

09-02-2005, 02:41 PM

Top Ten reasons to like Hawkeye

10. it takes a real man to wear purple...

09. He's been on more different teams than Wolverine

08. he shoots arrows, for crissakes... exploding arrows!

07. he was a criminal who became a hero who didn't TOTALLY suck afterward

06. he stood up to USAgent in a fist fight...
http://image.milehighcomics.com/istore/images/fullsize/94949295440.69.GIF

05. His middle name is "Francis," but he manages to avoid daily ass-kickings

04. He voluntarily went to prison for his homeys... daaamn...

03. He pops some pills and gets really big when it's time to take on some cosmic baddies

02. He lost his girl to a freakin' android and managed to not castrate himself for being lame.
http://image.milehighcomics.com/istore/images/fullsize/05885079398.4.GIF

and the number one reason Hawkeye is so GREAT...
01. he got to nail Mockingbird AND Moonstone!
http://www.schmakt.com/pictures/mockingbird001.jpg
http://www.geocities.com/randyburtis/casual.jpg

SOGG

09-02-2005, 02:43 PM

It really is simple, one he is an archer and lots of people like that type of charater, two he has the never say die attitude. He is the everyday type guy who is facing off against super villians that give Thor a run for his money.
It makes people realize that a normal guy with lots of training can stand side by side with Gods, genisus and mutants and hold his own.
<snipped for space>

Pretty much my take too. He's what Batman pretends to be. I mean, this guy SHOOTS ARROWS. That's it. No power armour, no ultra exotic training from forgotten masters (except Cap), no omni-gadget utility belt and no boom tube gloves.

He's a guy with a bow.

Schmakt

09-02-2005, 02:45 PM

Pretty much my take too. He's what Batman pretends to be. I mean, this guy SHOOTS ARROWS. That's it. No power armour, no ultra exotic training from forgotten masters (except Cap), no omni-gadget utility belt and no boom tube gloves.

He's a guy with a bow.

what??? The Trickster isn't an ultra exotic forgotten master?

c'mon. Trickster >>>>> Captain America anyday! ;)

Volk1

09-02-2005, 02:53 PM

He used to be a carnie, and now he works as a global super-hero..I think he deserves a life-time award.....

TCJohnson

09-02-2005, 03:00 PM

Beta Ray Bill

09-02-2005, 03:18 PM

Hawkeye was more of a common man.
Exactly. I always hear people say that Spider-Man is an "every man" type hero. How do you figure that? He can climb walls! Who cares if you're going through some money troubles, you can climb up walls! Feeling a little down? Climb a wall. You'll feel better. I know I would. Hawkeye though... he's got good aim. That's it. It doesn't really matter how well you can fight if you're going up against some giant robot or something. It'll just step on you. Hawkeye didn't care. He just wanted to shoot at stuff. I can relate to that.

icctrombone

09-02-2005, 03:21 PM

He won me over in the 60's and 70's when he first joined the Avengers and tried to take over Caps leader job. He was cocky but very lovable at the same time. He eventually became one of Caps biggest supporters , which shows me that he has character enough to admit when he was wrong.
I recently read his solo tales in Avengers Spotlight in which he was well written and added to his legend .
He's one of my favorite characters too.

Jake V

09-02-2005, 03:26 PM

I like his personality. He's a true underdog. When you think about it, based on only his powers, he should have no business hanging with the Avengers, but his skills and his attitude prove that he can be counted among earths mightiest heroes.

Plus, he really makes that purple work for him.

The Shadow

09-02-2005, 03:32 PM

I like the character because of all the Avengers he was the most imperfect. He was a hot head, he wanted to lead even though his leadership skills were not as good as Caps, he had a bit of a rebellious streak. While most of the other of the main avengers had this nobility about them (from rich homes or the best colleges) Hawkeye was more of a common man.
I think that describes Hank Pym more than anyone!

I've always been a fan of Hawkeye, but really he's a second rate Green Arrow. The only difference is GA was a rich playboy and Hawk was a carnie (damn carnie's... they small funny).

I think Schmakt's list is GREAT though! The middle name Francis and more teams than Wolverine are great. I wasn't upset when they killed him and I wish he would stay dead so as not to completly cheapen death in comics.

And Black Knight... as for his being 3rd most popular Avenger... until the most recent team I think his place was safe... but not now. And though a huge majority of people have been Avengers at one time or another after Cap, Iron Man, Thor, Hawkeye, Vision, Scarlet Witch, Wasp, and Hank Pym... the list gets small quick.
Sure the Beast was there... 30 years ago... and even lower teir guys like Black Knight, Sub-Mariner or Wonder Man would be on a list... but look at the competition: Gilgamesh, Dr Druid, Jocasta, Sersi, Ant Man II, Jack of Hearts, Triatholon, Herulese, Moondragon... hell, I'd vote for Brian Cronin before any of those people for best Avenger!

Shellhead

09-02-2005, 03:34 PM

Black Knight and TCJohnson listed several great reasons why Hawkeye is a great character. I've got some more.

1. Hawkeye was one of the very first Marvel villains to become a hero. He started out working for commie spy Black Widow, battling Iron Man. Within a year, he was an Avenger. Black Widow later defected from the Soviet Union and joined the Avengers, inspired by Clint's example.

2. Sometimes Hawkeye pulls an extreme upset victory in battle. As nothing more than an athletic human with olympic-level archery skill, he has defeated the original Power Man (while also battling Black Widow and his own mentor, Swordsman), the Collector (elder of the universe), Krona (DC villain who killed Galactus), and Deathbird. Hawkeye and Swordsman managed to defeat Kang after he had already captured and taken control of Thor, Iron Man and Vision.

3. Hawkeye is extremely bold with the ladies. During the Avengers-Defenders War, he misunderstood Valkyrie's enthusiasm for the coming battle and kissed her, and survived her wrath, leaving her smiling slightly as she left. Again, after defeating Deathbird, who was spouting standard villain dialogue as she was hauled off by security guards, Clint dipped her low (ballroom dancing style) and kissed her on the lips, walking away as she cursed him out. And Vision didn't take Scarlet Witch from Hawkeye, she just wasn't into Clint to start with.

riotgear

09-02-2005, 03:52 PM

um..he shoots arrows!!! Hello?

Jade, my answer was going to be because he's a normal human who used his talents and courage to stand toe-to-toe with gods, but you're answer works better. :)

SOGG

09-02-2005, 04:44 PM

what??? The Trickster isn't an ultra exotic forgotten master?

c'mon. Trickster >>>>> Captain America anyday! ;)

Hehe. Even better. Look at his mentors -- swordsman, trickster...

He should have become the next paste pot pete, instead he becomes... Hawkeye.

Although I lied... he's got the greatest power in the world -- the Power Carny.

CyberCoyote

09-02-2005, 08:09 PM

Yeppers, the guy's been one of my top 5 favorites along with The Thing and Wonder Man (no matter how gawd awful some of his costumes were) since the 70's. This guy was just so cool..he's just a man, get's shafted (no pun intended) by the enemy because they think so little of him, but always proves that guts and skill can take down the heaviest hitters.

He's got one of those mod purple costumes that 4 color comics were so happy to produce (purple was easy) which in theory should look terrible but damn if the guy ain't always stylin'.

And yeah, baggin' Bobbi and Karla count big time. He could qualify for some kinda frequent flier miles if he decided to just be a player in the MU :)

Kirk G

09-02-2005, 10:02 PM

Jade, my answer was going to be because he's a normal human who used his talents and courage to stand toe-to-toe with gods, but you're answer works better. :)

Excuse me, but can I vere off center on this thread a little?
I just saw Hawkeye full on the cover of Pulse #10, but I never saw any Pulse issues #1-9. Is this a House of M tie in that is more than monthly? How could they be up to issue #10 already?

Or is this a marketing stunt that there are no earlier issues, like the Sentry comic books...???

I can't figure out how Hawkeye can read a news clipping about his death, when others see it as a Park Tribute. I know reality has changed, but shouldn't it change all substance for everyone...??? This issue seems to have changed the rules for the game.

PS: Does anyone want to guess who the little GIRL in House of M 5 really is?
I have a good guess.... given that one marvel character is obviously missing and everyone seems to have been given their one best hearts desire.... What would HIS have been? Hmmmm????

Chris Thomas

09-02-2005, 10:11 PM

he and the vision were always my favorite avengers as a kid. In retrospect, I must have a color perception problem because they have the ugliest costumes every created.

otherwise, the vision was a badass (stick a hand in you and solidify oh yah) --- I am not clear why I liked hawkeye.

has to be as noted above--sort of an everyman who is really good at one thing. I would compare it to a hit record made by a marginal singing talent--you can sing along and sound pretty good.

SpecialAgentPunk

09-02-2005, 10:24 PM

any news on hawkeye coming back to a real title? I know he's supposed to appear in She-Hulk #1, but anything else?

Calamas

09-02-2005, 11:16 PM

I’ve always liked Hawkeye in the sense that there are characters that you like and characters that you don’t, for no particular reason, you just do (or don’t, as the case may be). I always preferred him in the Avengers line-up, but it was okay when he wasn’t. He’d be back.

Right now I’m a big Hawkeye supporter. And yet my feelings toward the character, in all honesty, haven’t changed. While I’ve always liked him, he was hardly a favorite. So I’ll go ahead and say the dirty word: “Disassembled.” Though even that doesn’t say it completely, either. It’s not just that he died in an atrocious story. It’s the way he went out. He died uselessly and stupidly. A hero, even a fictional one, is entitled to more respect than he received from his real-life caretakers. Essentially, Hawkeye became Marvel’s Hal Jordan. He deserved better.

On the bright side, at least it won’t take 10 years to fix it.

Mo S.

09-02-2005, 11:19 PM

Bunches of questions to answer:

Kirk - Pulse #10 was a special tie-in to the main House of M story, with little to no connection to the entire rest of the Pulse series (the reporter, Kat Farrell, and her editor/friend are both regular Pulse characters). The reason that Hawkeye can see the "real" headline is that he has been given his "real" memories back, of the world before House of M, and now remembers both realities. Kat only knows the House of M reality and hence can only see the one headline. Apparently the House of M world is not a complete and separate reality but one that been overlain on the regular world, a twisting of of reality. Yes, there are lots of holes in that concept and your head will hurt if you try and walk a logical way through it. I'm just accepting it with relatively good grace and waiting until it's all over to b$tch about it. I say Layla Miller is Wanda's avatar, the physical representation of her power in that world. No idea if I'm right or not, but I like the idea...

SpecialAgentPunk - We know that Hawkeye will be back at least for two issues at the She-Hulk relaunch. Speculation is that he'll be there longer than that, but no one except Slott knows for sure, and he isn't sharing...

Okay, my take on Hawkeye - like all long-running characters, and especially those who have appeared mostly in team books, he can be unevenly written. Different authors have different takes on the character and often readers form their opinions based on when they started reading and who was writing the character at that time.

In general, Hawkeye is an up-from-nothing character, fighting side-by-side with the best superpowers on the planet because he MADE himself that good, by practise and work. Orphaned as a child, he and his older brother bounced around orphanages until they got tired of it and ran away when Hawkeye was about 12 or 14. Somewhere shortly after he started learning archery as a carny. You can pretty much bet that he has virtually no formal schooling from that point on, and instead got "schooled" by the criminals Swordsman and Trickshot - and, once he finally joined the Avengers, by Captain America. It's fun to watch the Hawkeye-Cap thing in early Avengers issues shift dynamics and, in Hawkeye's eyes, Cap goes from being a disliked authority/father figure to someone he trusts, likes, and looks up to. True, the early stories tend to be action-centric, but there are still some nice character moments in them. IMO, though, many of the best Hawkeye moments were in the first run on Thunderbolts, where Hawkeye tries to lead a team of ex-villains who are trying to become superheroes. He makes some mistakes but it's clear he is in it heart and soul and he also does some things very right.

He can be a mouthy jerk, a complete egomaniac (although he IS that good), he often acts on instinct, without thinking things through, which sometimes works out and sometimes doesn't - either way, he'll never stop or give up, no matter how overmatched he is. He has the "hero" characteristic of wanting to help anyone who needs his help, no matter what the consequences and sometimes no matter what rules he has to bend. That last part he did NOT learn from Cap. He can be amusing AND annoying at the same time, both to the readers and the rest of the characters in the book.

And that's good enough for me.

Paradox

09-02-2005, 11:56 PM

Yeah, it's the 'TUDE, baby! Cool enough for DC to "steal" his attitude (to a degree) for THEIR archer.

Clint has always seemed to me like a "blue collar" hero. Making it on the sweat of his brow rather than "God-given" powers. Yet, there he stood in battle next to one of the greatest technologists on the planet, the Super-Soldier of WW II and a Norse God. Pretty heady company for an initially misunderstood carny.

Another aspect I always liked is that Hawkeye always found a way to win...even if he had to cheat! ;)

Well...except for that LAST time, of course...but he'll be back.

Paradox

09-03-2005, 12:03 AM

Nick Kal has no sense of history:

I think he became a lot of peoples favorite when Bendis killed him just because they wanted something to whine about...

Utter balderdash, of course. While I'm sure there were a few "bandwagon jumpers", Hawkeye's been very popular his whole career. I remember when they used to run those polls in the letters pages and Hawk would always come in right behind the Big Three. I'm positive most of us who say we're fans of Hawkeye's always were.

Fireball

09-03-2005, 12:50 AM

Hawkeye is one of my favorites because I find I can identify with his personality, cocky smartass with an axe to grind; just like me :D

I always found that he was the "human" side of the Avengers, the one there who would help keep the team grounded.

I think it's funny that Hawkeye is one of my favorites due to the fact that carnival folk scare me, with their missing teeth, mullets, poorly drawn tatoos, uuuggghh! sends shivers up my spine just thinking about it.

Ivan Isaacs

09-03-2005, 01:58 AM

Hawkeye was my favorite character EVER the moment I saw him for the first time in a comic book (should've been a German reprint of Avengers or that Marvel Team-Up issue).

I like his personality. He's always making his point clear. He also led three teams successfully. He shoots arrows (I like archers... Green Arrow is my favorite DC character next to Geo-Force and Black Lightning), he has a high morality standard (anybody remeber how he dumped Bobbi after the Nightrider incident?) and he was Father Time once!

When Bendis killed him I laughed. I laughed because his death scene was so goddamn ridiculous. I wouldn't mind seeing him die in a Blaze of Glory but what Bendis did was just... lame.

Nick Kal

09-03-2005, 11:11 AM

Utter balderdash, of course. While I'm sure there were a few "bandwagon jumpers", Hawkeye's been very popular his whole career. I remember when they used to run those polls in the letters pages and Hawk would always come in right behind the Big Three. I'm positive most of us who say we're fans of Hawkeye's always were.

That's why, as mentioned before, his last title tanked? He must not have had the same amount of fans he does now... You know there is truth to what I'm saying.

By the way, I like Hawkeye, but I'm not going to go and rant about how Bendis sucks for killing him off...Oh again, I mean Wanda... I mean he's coming back anyway. If anything he hasa bigger fan base now and will be a better hero in a lot of people's eyes for sacrificing himself.

Ravenheart

09-03-2005, 11:14 AM

While not my favorite character I always liked him.Especially when he started the West Coast Avengers(which I liked even more then The Avengers for quite a long time).He has no real super powers to speak of but he's never backed down from a fight.At least none that I've seen.

AllisterH

09-03-2005, 11:20 AM

<snip>

favorite DC character next to Geo-Force and Black Lightning), he has a high morality standard (anybody remeber how he dumped Bobbi after the Nightrider incident?) .

This actually is why I detest hawkeye and wasn't sad to see him go. His wife gets raped, she kills the rapist and he is pissed off at his wife? If I was Bobbi, I would have dumped the arrogant jerk and made it well known among the Avengers females about that.

Ivan Isaacs

09-03-2005, 11:30 AM

That's why, as mentioned before, his last title tanked? He must not have had the same amount of fans he does now... You know there is truth to what I'm saying.

Did you read his last series? It wasn't bad but it wasn't a Hawkeye series. It was some blonde-guy-with-leatherjacket series. No wonder nobody bought it.
The last two issues (which were classic superhero stories) were quite good.
If the whole series would've been like that I bet the series would've lasted longer. But seeing Hawkeye in costume and action scenes on the cover and not seeing him in costume or action scenes in the comic is a big let-down.

This actually is why I detest hawkeye and wasn't sad to see him go. His wife gets raped, she kills the rapist and he is pissed off at his wife? If I was Bobbi, I would have dumped the arrogant jerk and made it well known among the Avengers females about that.

Killing is still killing. I don't know how I would feel if somebody close to me killed somebody - no matter how bad a guy he/she/it was.

west3man

09-03-2005, 11:33 AM

CyberCoyote

09-03-2005, 11:34 AM

That's why, as mentioned before, his last title tanked? He must not have had the same amount of fans he does now... You know there is truth to what I'm saying.

.
The last series tanked because the last series stunk. You can start a new Spederman series with Pete on a bike with no costume and it'd stink too :)

da noble savage

09-03-2005, 11:38 AM

well the one thing he's really good at according to bendis is dieing. Of course I never really read much bout him how much diff. is he from green arrow i mean character wise and everything. If anybody could feel me in it would be most appreciated.

Mo S.

09-03-2005, 11:40 AM

That's why, as mentioned before, his last title tanked? He must not have had the same amount of fans he does now... You know there is truth to what I'm saying.

While I liked Nicieza's take on Hawkeye, myself, there was some resistance to the character's portrayal "out of uniform." In the first 5? 6? issue story arc, he appeared out of costume far more than in costume. Personally, I don't care about spandex or the lack of it, but a lot of people do. The focus of the first arc was a mystery and that isn't typically what superhero fans seem to want as the primary focus of their titles.

And I am not sure that sales numbers for solo titles are a good indicator of a character's relative "worth" in the MU anyway - Hawkeye was, and pretty much always will be, a team player, rather than a solo star. That doesn't make him any less of a great character. If you look at the other teams (Fantastic Four, X-Men), the solo titles of the team players tend to not sell nearly as well as the team title, but that doesn't mean the characters are not popular.

Mo S.

09-03-2005, 11:54 AM

I was a kid when that issue was referenced, I think. I saw an issue of WCA where Clint got pissed at finding out Bobbi's secret. Assuming this is the same tale, I remember thinking, even then, that he may have overreacted.

Hearing more of the details, now, cemenets that opinion a bit more.

It was, I think, a combination of things. Not only that she let Phantom Rider fall to his death when she could have saved him, but that she purposely hid the entire thing from him when they got back together - what Phantom Rider had done to her, her reasonings for what she did. She told him nothing about what happened, even though he asked her. Hawkeye heard the story from someone else first (Phantom Rider's ghost, actually) in the worst light possible. He seemed to think she had played him for a fool, which is, to some extent, an over-reaction, and the situation spiraled out of control, because both Hawk and Mock took positions on it and refused to budge. Should he have had enough faith in Mock to ASK her first, rather than believe a vengeful ghost? Uh, yeah. Should Mock have told him herself? Uh, yeah. Handled with a bit more sense on either her part or his (or both) it would have ended up much differently.

Chris Thomas

09-03-2005, 04:06 PM

why, when I read any hawkeye threads, do I feel like my quiver is on fire and I have to fly into an alien spaceship? please people, NOT LIKE THIS

Gaz

09-03-2005, 05:32 PM

why, when I read any hawkeye threads, do I feel like my quiver is on fire and I have to fly into an alien spaceship? please people, NOT LIKE THIS
Really? I always have an irrepressable urge to shoot arrows into small, hairy, sideburned Canadians! :D

Fireball

09-03-2005, 05:36 PM

Really? I always have an irrepressable urge to shoot arrows into small, hairy, sideburned Canadians! :D
Hey, what'd we ever do to you? :D

Gaz

09-03-2005, 05:40 PM

Hey, what'd we ever do to you? :D
Do you say "bub" a lot while drinking beer? :p

Fireball

09-03-2005, 05:59 PM

Do you say "bub" a lot while drinking beer? :p
As a matter of fact I do, and a bunch of other words that aren't fit to print

Dermie

09-03-2005, 09:22 PM

The last series tanked because the last series stunk. You can start a new Spederman series with Pete on a bike with no costume and it'd stink too :)

I disagree that the series "stunk". I quite enjoyed Fabian's portrayal of Hawkeye, and I really enjoyed the "past prologues" at the start of each issue. I think if the series had continued, it would have really become something special.

That said, it did have a few strikes against it. The fact that Clint was out of costume for most of the first arc turned off a lot of people. The art style was also one that took some getting used to. And I don't think that the opening story arc was the best choice to launch the series with. It was a little too slow moving, imo, and probably didn't need to be 6-issues long (perhaps another victim of writing for the TPB format).
If the series had launched with the 2nd arc (the action packed two parter guest starring the Black Widow) I think the series would have been better recieved and had a longer life.

That's why, as mentioned before, his last title tanked? He must not have had the same amount of fans he does now... You know there is truth to what I'm saying.

Not really. The premature cancellation didn't have anything to do with Hawkeye not having enough fans--the problem was in the presentation of the opening arc (as I discuss above). There were a number of Hawkeye fans that chose not to pick up that series, because they were turned off by certain elements of the first arc.
Also, a lack of promotion didn't help--I heard from people who didn't know that there was a new HAWKEYE series until after it was already cancelled.

But Hawkeye's popularity has been proven again and again, in various polls in the letters pages and at online message boards. It has been proven in the fact that Hawkeye was the Avenger chosen to be the ongoing lead of Solo Avengers (a Hawkeye solo feature that lasted for nearly 40 issues), as well as two other miniseries and a one-shot prior to Fabian Niceiza's short-lived series. And it is proven in the fact that Bendis chose to kill him off in the first place--he knew that would be a death that would piss people off and get attention.

SalazarSleaze2

09-03-2005, 09:41 PM

What's so great about Hawkeye?
Nothing , in my opinion.
He's always been one of those Avengers that I feel totally indifferent about.
He isn't a "crappy" character, but not a great one either, as far as I'm concerned.

We R. Venom

09-03-2005, 09:49 PM

The man fights crime with a bow and arrows and wears purple. Besides the good character, that alone is enought to make him a baddass.

The Shadow

09-03-2005, 11:05 PM

That said, it did have a few strikes against it. The fact that Clint was out of costume for most of the first arc turned off a lot of people. The art style was also one that took some getting used to. And I don't think that the opening story arc was the best choice to launch the series with. It was a little too slow moving, imo, and probably didn't need to be 6-issues long (perhaps another victim of writing for the TPB format).
If the series had launched with the 2nd arc (the action packed two parter guest starring the Black Widow) I think the series would have been better recieved and had a longer life.

Not really. The premature cancellation didn't have anything to do with Hawkeye not having enough fans--the problem was in the presentation of the opening arc (as I discuss above). There were a number of Hawkeye fans that chose not to pick up that series, because they were turned off by certain elements of the first arc.

But Hawkeye's popularity has been proven again and again, in various polls in the letters pages and at online message boards. It has been proven in the fact that Hawkeye was the Avenger chosen to be the ongoing lead of Solo Avengers (a Hawkeye solo feature that lasted for nearly 40 issues), as well as two other miniseries and a one-shot prior to Fabian Niceiza's short-lived series. And it is proven in the fact that Bendis chose to kill him off in the first place--he knew that would be a death that would piss people off and get attention.
So why when the comic book market was BOOMING couldn't he sustain Avengers West Coast OR Solo Avengers? Todays top selling books would have been canned back in the mid-80's to mid-90's... why couldn't he sustain a book when there were 200,000 people reading Avengers? 40 issues was nothing back then... hell, I think Power Pack outlived Solo Avengers!

Also, a lack of promotion didn't help--I heard from people who didn't know that there was a new HAWKEYE series until after it was already cancelled.
But if the series was REALLY good it would have developed a word of mouth following and maybe gained a second life. Runaways and She-Hulk are prime examples of this that started at roughly the same time as Hawkeye. And if Hawkeye is SO POPULAR... why is the She-Hulk getting a second chance? According to those Avengers polls Hawkeye IS more popular than She-Hulk... and If it was ONLY 1 measly arc the rabid Hawkeye fans should have scrambled back when he hauled back on the purple tights!

SalazarSleaze2

09-04-2005, 05:05 AM

Good points all.

So why when the comic book market was BOOMING couldn't he sustain Avengers West Coast OR Solo Avengers? Todays top selling books would have been canned back in the mid-80's to mid-90's... why couldn't he sustain a book when there were 200,000 people reading Avengers? 40 issues was nothing back then... hell, I think Power Pack outlived Solo Avengers!

But if the series was REALLY good it would have developed a word of mouth following and maybe gained a second life. Runaways and She-Hulk are prime examples of this that started at roughly the same time as Hawkeye. And if Hawkeye is SO POPULAR... why is the She-Hulk getting a second chance? According to those Avengers polls Hawkeye IS more popular than She-Hulk... and If it was ONLY 1 measly arc the rabid Hawkeye fans should have scrambled back when he hauled back on the purple tights!

CyberCoyote

09-04-2005, 06:58 AM

I'll concede that the latest series' lack of pleasant scents is completely subjective, and I will also admit that I didn't make it past the first issue because I thought the art chores were not handled well at all.

I LOVE almost everything Fabe's does, but I'm a major illustration snob, even if I've not a professional eye for art to lean on :)

But one of the reasons I like Clint so much is he's a guy without powers competing in the big leagues. That first issue reminded me on Nomad from the 90's :(

Donald M.

09-04-2005, 07:23 AM

I *think* Kurt Busiek mentioned that Hawkeye's his favorite character... whether that was favorite AVENGER or just favorite character PERIOD, I don't recall. That surprised me, as I'm not the biggest fan. I don't have much against him, really, but I was curious about why ANY of you Hawkeye fans out there dig him so much.

So, this is your thread to tell a long-time comic reader, but not-much-of-a-Hawkeye-fan, what's so cool about the character.

Thanks, in advance.

I'll try to remember to send a p.m. to Kurt Busiek so he can contribute to the thread or simply correct me (in case I inadvertently misrepresented his opinion).

I'm not so huge a fan of Hawkeye myself, but I think his appeal lies, as others have said, in the "Common Man" factor. He's not a god or an alien or an android, he wasn't pumped up with super serum, he has no fancy hi-tech armor, mutant powers or magical science particles. He's just an ordinary guy who got where he is though hard work and training. He's the character the reader is most likely to associate with because he's the one character on the team you could imagine yourself actually being/becoming.

Plus, he's a stone cold badass with the cojones to hang with guys who could snap him in half just by thinking about it and who (usually) has a pretty good sense of humor about himself and being a superhero.

Ivan Isaacs

09-04-2005, 08:57 AM

So why when the comic book market was BOOMING couldn't he sustain Avengers West Coast OR Solo Avengers? Todays top selling books would have been canned back in the mid-80's to mid-90's... why couldn't he sustain a book when there were 200,000 people reading Avengers? 40 issues was nothing back then... hell, I think Power Pack outlived Solo Avengers!

Hawkeye Armor. 'nuff said!
And then there's the fact that Wolverine had to share the title with characters like Peregrine or Moondragon. MCP at least had Wolverine and Ghost Rider to haul readers in.

And Avengers West Coast was canceled (and relaunched as Force Works which tanked) but after he lost leadership of the team he barely showed up IIRC (I have only read the German reprints that stopped around Wanda's second madness and then was continued with the Bloodties-Crossovers).

And in today's market he and a strong writing helped to get the T-Bolts up to 78 issues (and 2 Annuals).

And if Hawkeye is SO POPULAR... why is the She-Hulk getting a second chance?

Because fans cried out. But the Hawkeye series flew under most people's (even fan's) radar because they were turned off after one or two issues.
The series had a marketing that went totally wrong or was ahead of it's time (as was the brilliant Nomad series by Nicieza).
Hawkeye is popular. So's Moon Knight. So's Wonder Man (I remember the outcries in the FW letters pages well, when Abnett/Lanning killed him off) But without a well-known creative team no b-list character would stand a chance in today's market. No matter how good it would be. Look at New Warriors - awesome book, horrible sales. So has Gravity, Spellbinders, Livewires or Hercules.
G.L.A. had the luck to have Slott's She-Hulk fame.

She-ulk may be not as popular as Hawkeye HERE but the series wasn't a classic superhero series. It was comedy gold and I think it appealed to a wider audience.
Hawkeye didn't.

Calamas

09-04-2005, 08:59 AM

But if the series was REALLY good it would have developed a word of mouth following and maybe gained a second life. Runaways and She-Hulk are prime examples of this that started at roughly the same time as Hawkeye. And if Hawkeye is SO POPULAR... why is the She-Hulk getting a second chance? According to those Avengers polls Hawkeye IS more popular than She-Hulk... and If it was ONLY 1 measly arc the rabid Hawkeye fans should have scrambled back when he hauled back on the purple tights!
You’re operating under a misapprehension. Titles like Hawkeye aren’t meant to succeed. They exist to fill space. Oh, it would be nice if it became a top seller, but Marvel doesn’t expect it, or even care one way or another. If enough Marvel and DC titles occupy the shelves, countless independent titles never even get in the door. Good or bad has nothing to do with it. And, honestly, neither do the fans.

Runaways and She-Hulk are not getting a second chance because of the praise of critics or the cheers of the few readers they have. Their “second season”--as well as DC’s Hard Time--came about because the industry loved these titles. Not liked, LOVED. Hawkeye, the title, was good--sometimes very good--but not great and not particularly original. No groundswell of insider support, so no extended stay or return engagement. Therefore, goodbye Hawkeye.

The only good that comes out of this situation beside the second chance itself, when it happens, is that this is how new talent make their mark. Brian K Vaughn and Dan Slott currently, exactly as Loeb and Sale (Chalengers of the Unknown) and Geoff Johns (Stars and S.T.R.I.P.E.) did before them. The status of veterans like Steve Gerber and Fabian Nicieza, however, remain unchanged. As do the affection (of lack thereof) for the characters involved, in this case Hawkeye.

And the failure of his title has nothing to do with it.

Shellhead

09-04-2005, 09:48 AM

The Shadow

09-04-2005, 11:04 AM

Hawkeye Armor. 'nuff said!
And then there's the fact that Wolverine had to share the title with characters like Peregrine or Moondragon. MCP at least had Wolverine and Ghost Rider to haul readers in.
Daredevil survived his armour phase and Iron Man survived being de-aged to a teen.
Wolverine didn't JUST share the book with Ghost Rider... there was also Nth Man and a ton of loser characters as well.

And Avengers West Coast was canceled (and relaunched as Force Works which tanked) ...
And in today's market he and a strong writing helped to get the T-Bolts up to 78 issues (and 2 Annuals).
Both are team books though... Hawkeye isn't popular enough to sustain a solo title.

Because fans cried out. But the Hawkeye series flew under most people's (even fan's) radar because they were turned off after one or two issues.
The series had a marketing that went totally wrong or was ahead of it's time
That's speculation... the series was advertised in Previews like all other titles 2 months in advance. There was life after the first arc too.

She-Hulk may be not as popular as Hawkeye HERE but the series wasn't a classic superhero series. It was comedy gold and I think it appealed to a wider audience.
Hawkeye didn't.
Hawkeye should have appealed to the CSI/James Bond/Alias spy type crowd... and those series' have a wide audience base.

The Shadow

09-04-2005, 11:15 AM

You’re operating under a misapprehension. Titles like Hawkeye aren’t meant to succeed. They exist to fill space. Oh, it would be nice if it became a top seller, but Marvel doesn’t expect it, or even care one way or another. If enough Marvel and DC titles occupy the shelves, countless independent titles never even get in the door.
That's an interesting idea... never thought of that before!

Good or bad has nothing to do with it. And, honestly, neither do the fans.
THAT I disagree with... because if the fans don't buy it the book gets canned.

Runaways and She-Hulk are not getting a second chance because of the praise of critics or the cheers of the few readers they have. Their “second season”--as well as DC’s Hard Time--came about because the industry loved these titles. Not liked, LOVED. Hawkeye, the title, was good--sometimes very good--but not great and not particularly original. No groundswell of insider support, so no extended stay or return engagement. Therefore, goodbye Hawkeye.
That would be speculation... because a good froend of mine LOVED the new take on Hawkeye... you're dealing in generalizations. If there was enough demand for Hawkeye... if enough people LOVED the character they would have flooded Marvel's offices with letters demanding the "real" Hawkeye... or the purple costume. If he had enough of a following the fans would have ensured his survival in the more traditional form because of sheer demand and complaining.

The only good that comes out of this situation beside the second chance itself, when it happens, is that this is how new talent make their mark. Brian K Vaughn and Dan Slott currently, exactly as Loeb and Sale (Chalengers of the Unknown) and Geoff Johns (Stars and S.T.R.I.P.E.) did before them. The status of veterans like Steve Gerber and Fabian Nicieza, however, remain unchanged. As do the affection (of lack thereof) for the characters involved, in this case Hawkeye.
You're comparing 2 of the hottest people in comics (Loeb and Johns) with 2 mid-teir guys. A more valid comparrison would have been with Peter David and Captain Marvel... but Marvel doesn't have the name recognition of Hawkeye. I would say that a title like Hawkeye would have the chance to shoot Nicieza into the Johns stratosphere had it worked out. Instead it shows he doesn't have enough drawing power with a popular character like Hawkeye to sustain a book. I think it would HURT his status in the comic industry. He can't sell a popular character on the strength of his name. Would you hire him? I would be more hesitant. AND he was bold enough to try new stuff with the character instead of letting him remain the same as he's been for the past 20 years.

The Shadow

09-04-2005, 11:21 AM

West Coast Avengers lasted more than 100 issues. That's over 8 years. I don't understand your statement that Hawkeye failed to "sustain" West Coast Avengers. In hindsight, it wasn't a very good comic, in terms of either art or writing, so for it to have lasted that long, the fans must have really enjoyed the main characters.
You answered the WHY I say that with your last 9 words... "the fans must have really enjoyed the main characters" Because of the team concept I could say it was WONDER MAN that sustained the book... or Iron Man... or Scarlet Witch... or Vision. They were the core of the book and served almost as long as Hawkeye (Wonder Man may have enen). Hell, I knew people that bought the book when USAgent joined. You can't peg the success of a TEAM book on one person. Same as a sports team. Sure Gretzky was the BEST player on the Oilers... but without great players like Kurri to convert Gretzky's passes into goals all Wayne would have been doing was passing... not getting assists. AND the Oilers won the cup WITHOUT Gretzky... showing while he certainly didn't HURT a team... the TEAM was what was important.

Michael P

09-04-2005, 11:24 AM

Shadow, Vaughan won a friggin' Eisner. I think that catapults him above "mid-tier."

The Shadow

09-04-2005, 11:26 AM

Shadow, Vaughan won a friggin' Eisner. I think that catapults him above "mid-tier."
I was speaking of Gerber and Fabian

Shellhead

09-04-2005, 12:22 PM

You can't peg the success of a TEAM book on one person.

I'm still having trouble following your point. Weren't you trying to peg the success of the team to Hawkeye? Otherwise, what did you mean by Hawkeye failing to sustain the book?

Gingold

09-04-2005, 12:43 PM

I think Hawkeye's always had a very strong following among hardcore Avengers fans, which is why he always did well in letters page polls and internet surveys (which are voted on, almost exculsively, by hardcore fans). More casual fans just weren't/aren't that into Hawkeye, so his solo efforts never really took off.

I also think that his character works better in a group dynamic than as a solo character. He's a cocky pain in the ass, which always made him a great foil for characters like Cap, Pietro and the USAgent. By himself, he's just not that interesting.

The reason for the outcry regarding Hawkeye's "death" had less to do with widespread affection for the character than the fact that it was a pretty crappily written death scene. I'm not a huge Hawkeye fan (I like him, I just don't like him-like him), but I was pretty bummed out by the send off that Bendis gave him. This was a Stan Lee character, who had been around for about 40 years and he went out like a punk. It seemed disrespectful, even if you weren't a Hawkeye fan.

Phoney Bone

09-04-2005, 12:45 PM

Gingold sez:
I also think that his character works better in a group dynamic than as a solo character. He's a cocky pain in the ass, which always made him a great foil for characters like Cap, Pietro and the USAgent. By himself, he's just not that interesting.

Yup. Just check out some back issues of the Avengers whenever Hawkeye wasn't on the team. the biggest question in the letters' page was "When is Hawkeye coming back?" this was a time when comics sold regularly in the hundreds of thousands instead of tens of thousands.

Hawkeye has always been popular because he was Han Solo before there WAS a Han Solo. A Han Solo movie wouldn't be very interesting without the rest of the personalities for him to bounce off of.

mastaflan

09-04-2005, 01:03 PM

Hawkeye would have been a lot cooler if he wasn't trapped in his bow and arrow gimmick. They could have added more depth to this character if they gave him maybe he learned some magic or he went to further train with monks or something...

Ivan Isaacs

09-04-2005, 01:39 PM

Daredevil survived his armour phase

Stylish noir armor vs. bulky something. Yeah. Right. :D
I liked the DD armor.

and Iron Man survived being de-aged to a teen.

Was that (Teen Tony) a bad thing? It was way before my time. I just have a few (yet unread) issues penciled by Jim Cheung, so I can't say anything about it.

Wolverine didn't JUST share the book with Ghost Rider... there was also Nth Man and a ton of loser characters as well.

Yeah, but Wolverine and GR kept the title going. Without them - maybe with some b-list character like Iron Man or Wasp as main feature the title would've tanked as well.
IF Hawkeye would've had that series all alone (and the Hawkeye stories were strong) I think the series could've lasted longer. The potential was there.

Both are team books though... Hawkeye isn't popular enough to sustain a solo title.

Put a well-known team on it (like Brubaker and Madureira) and I BET it will reach the top 10.
Then take away the well-known creators and put some people on it that are also good. I think it would last.

That's speculation... the series was advertised in Previews like all other titles 2 months in advance. There was life after the first arc too.

Yeah, but Nicieza is past his superstar status he had in the 90ties.
Stefano Rafaele was virtually unknown (but he and Nicieza totally rocked on "The Blackburne Covenant" which was published a few months before by Dark Horse).
The covers gave the impression of a superhero book. It wasn't one.
It's the same why so many people were disappointed with the Hulk movie - the expected a summer action blockbuster and not the arthouse movie that was delivered.

Hawkeye should have appealed to the CSI/James Bond/Alias spy type crowd... and those series' have a wide audience base.

And who should've known that it is sucvh a book? There wasn't all that good reviews as with She-Hulk that gave the book some hype. And Marvel didn't bother. They also don't bother with all those 413673 X-Men spin-off that are tanking by the dozen.
Gambit is a character that has potential for a couple dozen issues and he's popular. Yet his latest series tanked.

One would expect a "Nick Fury" or and "Untold Tales of Logan as Patch" series as an equal to James Bond but NEVER Hawkeye.

Calamas

09-04-2005, 03:49 PM

You're comparing 2 of the hottest people in comics (Loeb and Johns) with 2 mid-teir guys.Your missing my point. Johns and Loeb were unknowns when they were handed these throwaway titles. But because their work got attention within industry, they were able work themselves into “2 of the hottest people in comics.” Reader response did not play a significant part as the sale didn’t reflect improvement (at least in the case of Johns; Loeb’s was a mini-series). But the creators were noticed.. . . A more valid comparison would have been with Peter David and Captain Marvel... but [Captain] Marvel doesn't have the name recognition of Hawkeye.Yet Captain Marvel was a throwaway title also. If it sold, fine; if not, we’ll try something else. That’s why it got no real publicity or hype. It only got ink for winning that stupid “You decide which of these three titles survive.” And how many people actually paid attention to that gimmick. Of course Captain Marvel won. It was the only one worth saving.

And Captain Marvel was a great comic. It probably would have gotten its extension, even without the “vote.” PAD got the same extension for Fallen Angel at DC. Great book, no publicity, poor sales. But PAD successfully regained the attention of Marvel, and shortly thereafter returned to the Hulk and is set to do Spider-Man. At DC, however, he used up all his favors trying to get another Fallen Angel extension.. . . I would say that a title like Hawkeye would have the chance to shoot Nicieza into the Johns stratosphere had it worked out. Instead it shows he doesn't have enough drawing power with a popular character like Hawkeye to sustain a book. I think it would HURT his status in the comic industry. He can't sell a popular character on the strength of his name. Would you hire him? I would be more hesitant. AND he was bold enough to try new stuff with the character instead of letting him remain the same as he's been for the past 20 years.Yes, it did have a very good chance to catapult Nicieza into orbit--had Hawkeye been great. It was merely good, and that is not enough for a throwaway title. And, yes, I also applaud him for trying something, particularly since I liked it. But I doubt Hawkeye hurt his standing.

That was Alpha Flight.

dazzler_slave

09-04-2005, 03:57 PM

I think he became a lot of peoples favorite when Bendis killed him just because they wanted something to whine about...

...oops.. I meant when Wanda killed him.

Imagine if Wasp would've died. She would have automatically been propelled to Wonder Woman's status as a female icon in Comics!

I have to agree on this. Now I like Hawkeye a lot, especially as a Thunderbolt or a West Coast Avenger, but he was never one of my favourites. Now, according to the backlash over Disassembled (I know, I hated it too) there was a legion of Hawkeye fans outraged over his death. If so many people loved Clint that much, then why did his solo title get cancelled after 6 issues or something? Why did Avengers Spotlight which featured him last like 36 issues? How could he be so popular? I was annoyed that they killed him, but I generally find death in comics a waste of potential. It just seemed like jumping on the bandwagon, all these people suddenly declaring their love for a character who couldn't support a solo title.

spoon_jenkins

09-04-2005, 04:20 PM

You answered the WHY I say that with your last 9 words... "the fans must have really enjoyed the main characters" Because of the team concept I could say it was WONDER MAN that sustained the book... or Iron Man... or Scarlet Witch... or Vision. They were the core of the book and served almost as long as Hawkeye (Wonder Man may have enen).
Vision joined during the 30s (issue numbers of course) and left during the 50s, so that one's not even close. The Scarlet Witch also joined in the 30s. Iron Man was probably a big draw, but he had significant gaps in his service. Apparentally including a 20 issue gap. It seems like Wonder Man gained popularity during the run of WCA, earning his own title. He appeared in lots of issue, though he had some gaps in his service as well.

I think the success of WCA serves as a decent proxy for Hawkeye's popularity. As other pointed out, The Shadow thought it did, until folks pointed out WCA's long run - so now it's not a good proxy.

I've seen some of those letter page polls where Hawkeye did really well.

It depends on what people consider a strong fan following. Compared to the Big Three, he doesn't have a strong following, but I'd say that compared to most other Avengers he has a strong fan following.

berk

09-05-2005, 10:50 PM

Even though the "cocky guy with a heart of gold" is pretty ubiquitous in american pop culture - sometimes I think that practically every hero in an American movie falls into this category - Hawkeye is one of the few characters who strikes the right balance, depending on the writer of course. Usually, for me, they exaggerate the cockiness into sheer obnoxious arseholery to the point where I'm completely turned off by many of the most popular examples of the type (think of 90% of Tom Cruise or Bruce Willis movies), but Hawkeye always managed to come across as a likeable guy even when he was shooting his mouth off. Mind you, I haven't read anything from the 80's or 90's in which he appeared, so I'm going by the stuff up to then.

I think a lot could be done with this character, still. Too many of the other "everyman" types aren't really. Take Wolverine: for all his beer-swilling, he's still a superhuman, and a pretty thuggish one at that.

I like the costume too. Even that pointy mask and the big "H". And not many guys can get away with wearing purple nowadays.

BlackKnight

09-06-2005, 08:13 AM

So why when the comic book market was BOOMING couldn't he sustain Avengers West Coast OR Solo Avengers? Todays top selling books would have been canned back in the mid-80's to mid-90's... why couldn't he sustain a book when there were 200,000 people reading Avengers? 40 issues was nothing back then... hell, I think Power Pack outlived Solo Avengers!

But if the series was REALLY good it would have developed a word of mouth following and maybe gained a second life. Runaways and She-Hulk are prime examples of this that started at roughly the same time as Hawkeye. And if Hawkeye is SO POPULAR... why is the She-Hulk getting a second chance? According to those Avengers polls Hawkeye IS more popular than She-Hulk... and If it was ONLY 1 measly arc the rabid Hawkeye fans should have scrambled back when he hauled back on the purple tights!

First West Coast Avengers lasted to issue 100, I know solo Avengers lasted longer then issue 50. Hawkeye's comic was not pushed and on top of that a bad choice for the first arc killed it.

As for the idea that rabid hawkeye fans should have come back on board, well unfortuantly Marvel had already canceled the title before the second arc even started.

It is kind of hard to get another series when the charater was killed. Hmmm :rolleyes:

Also if you notice Hawkeye is guest staring in the first several issues of She-Hulk, I have heard rumours of a Casey Hawkeye series and he is listed as one of the 10 charaters to get a movie from the new Marvel entertainment company not She-Hulk, not SPider-Woman and not Luke Cage.

This is not a discussion of weither or not Hawkeye deserves a comic but why people like him.

Now has for the guy who keeps saying there are a bunch of bandwagon jumpers after his death.
Have you taken a poll on this, or are you just spewing crap.. Yep thats what I thought.

Ivan Isaacs

09-06-2005, 10:12 AM

First West Coast Avengers lasted to issue 100,

102. ;)

I know solo Avengers lasted longer then issue 50.

???
Then #41-5x should be the most sought-after issues Marvel ever published. ;)

Hawkeye's comic was not pushed

Same goes for She-Hulk and Runaways.

well unfortuantly Marvel had already canceled the title before the second arc even started.

Look at the sales and you know why.

I have heard rumours of a Casey Hawkeye series

I don't like Casey's writing but on the other hand EMH was a very good book.

and he is listed as one of the 10 charaters to get a movie from the new Marvel entertainment company not She-Hulk, not SPider-Woman and not Luke Cage.

Oi!

BlackKnight

09-06-2005, 10:19 AM

102. ;)

???
Then #41-5x should be the most sought-after issues Marvel ever published. ;)

!
My mistake, thought it went longer.

Same goes for She-Hulk and Runaways.

I agree with Runaways but the second She-Hulk series is getting better publicity, not great but better.

Look at the sales and you know why.

And if the series had started off with a super-hero story instead of guy with bow in leather it might have been different.
Also look at the Sales of She-Hulk and Runaways, although ok they are not great. :rolleyes:

I don't like Casey's writing but on the other hand EMH was a very good book.

That is your opinion, I personaly like Joe Casey's writing... This is also just a rumour.

Oi!

Yep just look at the thread about Marvel entertainment.

Finally, I just think it is funny that many people are saying that charater is not popular because his series died. How about you realize that the charater was popular enough to get a series. Hmmmm

Ivan Isaacs

09-06-2005, 10:36 AM

the second She-Hulk series is getting better publicity, not great but better.

Where? How? I didn't see anything that would be better then the first one (like press releases, variant cover pushes, shoehorning She-Hulk into titles such as New Avengers). :(

And if the series had started off with a super-hero story instead of guy with bow in leather it might have been different.

Agreed. Look at my previous response to Shadow. :)

Also look at the Sales of She-Hulk and Runaways, although ok they are not great. :rolleyes:

Yeah. But both are properties that are different. Hawkeye was just another one generic superhero spin-off like all those failed X-series.
It didn't generate a hype or a lot of overwhemling reviews like Runaways or She-Hulk did. Neither did the X-spin-offs who were all canceled.

That is your opinion,

I know. I never said otherwise. Isn't that one of those "outlawed" sentences BTW? ;)

How about you realize that the charater was popular enough to get a series.

Good point.
He also managed to have 2 miniseries, a former ongoing (Solo Avengers Spotlight) and a One-Shot. Sometzing that cannot be said about characters like the female Captain Marvel (had a series that lasted 2 issues which were practically One-Shots), Sersi, Vision (several miniseries), War Machine (a tanked ongoing series) or Black Knight (several miniseries).

BlackKnight

09-06-2005, 10:48 AM

Where? How? I didn't see anything that would be better then the first one (like press releases, variant cover pushes, shoehorning She-Hulk into titles such as New Avengers). :(

Agreed. Look at my previous response to Shadow. :)

Yeah. But both are properties that are different. Hawkeye was just another one generic superhero spin-off like all those failed X-series.
It didn't generate a hype or a lot of overwhemling reviews like Runaways or She-Hulk did. Neither did the X-spin-offs who were all canceled.

I know. I never said otherwise. Isn't that one of those "outlawed" sentences BTW? ;)

Good point.
He also managed to have 2 miniseries, a former ongoing (Solo Avengers Spotlight) and a One-Shot. Sometzing that cannot be said about characters like the female Captain Marvel (had a series that lasted 2 issues which were practically One-Shots), Sersi, Vision (several miniseries), War Machine (a tanked ongoing series) or Black Knight (several miniseries).

Female Captain Marvel had a series, I love to see a link to that? Sersi never had a limited, Vision has had two (one was called Vision and the Scarlet Witch and the other was the 4 issue crap fest). Yep your right about War Machine, but wrong about BK, who had one miniseries which was horrible and one one-shot which was fairly good.
Now lets look at Hawkeye.
He supported a series that lasted 40 issues, has had to very successful limited series, was the main charater in WCA that lasted 102 issues. Hmmm not much of a comparison there.

Saying that his comic failed just like say Gambit's or Rogues because they are really the only two you can count from the solo x-men (all the rest are limited series) does not make the charater less popular. Perhaps you should realize that perhaps Gambit and Rogue like Hawkeye was popular enough to get a series but just not popular enough to sustain it. This does not make the charater a waste or unpopular as many are trying to claim.

rpriske

09-06-2005, 11:26 AM

Ivan Isaacs

09-06-2005, 11:39 AM

Female Captain Marvel had a series, I love to see a link to that?

http://www.coverscans.de/covers2.asp?Kategorie=9132

To be fair. #1 was published in 1989 and #2 in 1994 (and featured also a new #1 on the cover).

Sersi never had a limited,

My sentences tend to come out a little bit confusing since I'm no native speaker. Yeah, I know that and that was my point.

Vision has had two (one was called Vision and the Scarlet Witch and the other was the 4 issue crap fest).

Vision and the Scarlet Witch were two miniseries (4 issues amd 12 issues).
There were two Vision series (1994/95) and 2002/03 - ICONS).

but wrong about BK, who had one miniseries which was horrible and one one-shot which was fairly good.

I stand corrected. :)

Hmmm not much of a comparison there.

Yep.

Saying that his comic failed just like say Gambit's or Rogues because they are really the only two you can count from the solo x-men (all the rest are limited series) does not make the charater less popular.

Jubilee was supposed to be an ongoing series and Nightcrawler wa an ongoing series, too.

And I think Gambit is even more popular then Hawkeye. Yet his series tanked.

Perhaps you should realize that perhaps Gambit and Rogue like Hawkeye was popular enough to get a series but just not popular enough to sustain it. This does not make the charater a waste or unpopular as many are trying to claim.

Word (hey, I'm not one of those guys trying to say Hawkeye isn't popular).
But Gambits first ongoing was successfully AFAIK but Quesada canceled it because it was nothing special (like X-Factor Vol. 2 or X-Statix) and not because it was selling in low numbers.

BlackKnight

09-06-2005, 11:39 AM

Just an FYI:

Vision has had 3 minis, if you include the 2 with the Scarlet Witch.

Hawkeye has had 2 minis, in addition to the shared spot in (Solo) Avengers (Spotlight).

None of the above mentioned series were much to write-home about, but the second V&SW mini included the birth of their children and the first Hawkeye mini included his wedding to Mockingbird, so there is some historical significance there.

There was one Vision & Scarlet witch mini that invovled the birth of their childern please post a link to the other. Ther was also a vison limited later.

I know there was two Hawkeye limites, saying there was one was a typo.
Thanks

Ivan Isaacs

09-06-2005, 11:52 AM

Vision and the Scarlet Witch, The (1982)
http://www.comics.org/series.lasso?SeriesID=2669

Vision and the Scarlet Witch, The (1985)
http://www.comics.org/series.lasso?SeriesID=3057

BlackKnight

09-06-2005, 12:34 PM

Vision and the Scarlet Witch, The (1982)
http://www.comics.org/series.lasso?SeriesID=2669

Vision and the Scarlet Witch, The (1985)
http://www.comics.org/series.lasso?SeriesID=3057

Thanks I was unaware of the first one.. My mistake.

BlackKnight

09-06-2005, 12:40 PM

http://www.coverscans.de/covers2.asp?Kategorie=9132

To be fair. #1 was published in 1989 and #2 in 1994 (and featured also a new #1 on the cover).

My sentences tend to come out a little bit confusing since I'm no native speaker. Yeah, I know that and that was my point.

Vision and the Scarlet Witch were two miniseries (4 issues amd 12 issues).
There were two Vision series (1994/95) and 2002/03 - ICONS).

I stand corrected. :)

Yep.

Jubilee was supposed to be an ongoing series and Nightcrawler wa an ongoing series, too.

And I think Gambit is even more popular then Hawkeye. Yet his series tanked.

Word (hey, I'm not one of those guys trying to say Hawkeye isn't popular).
But Gambits first ongoing was successfully AFAIK but Quesada canceled it because it was nothing special (like X-Factor Vol. 2 or X-Statix) and not because it was selling in low numbers.

Well I seem to rarley agree with Quesada and his selections of what is interesting and what is not.

Yea I remember that Jubilee was supposed to be an ongoing. LOL
Has Nightcrawler been officaily canceled yet?

I do have to ask what does all of these other series have to do with Hawkeye being an interesting and good charater. :D

Ivan Isaacs

09-06-2005, 01:00 PM

Nightcrawler hasn't officially been canceled (Marvel doesn't do this these days) but it's pretty obvious. :(

And, well Gambit and Rogue (especially Gambit) are pretty popular characters but their series tanked and so it's no wonder that Hawkeye tanked, too - even if he IS popular.

Typo Lad

09-06-2005, 01:51 PM

Why does Hawkeye rock?

As someone who's given Hawkeye a hard time in his blog for basically being a mysogonist pig uner Roy Thomas, I have to say, I love him.

Why?

Is it the everyman thing? Somewhat, I guess. His "Goliath" period was a bit annoying.

Is it the fact that he wears what may be the fugliest costumes ever? There's his purple thing, Goliath, king of Bondage, his little disco/toga number, his Plant Man wannabee outfit, and my personal favorite... his "crossing" era costume, which was basically Arsenal's first costume. That's right, the artist lifted a DC characters costume... down to the color scheme and logo.

Anyway, the real reason I like Hawkeye?

Cajones.

Forget the fact that he's just a guy with a bow and arrow. Forget the fact that he thought he would be a better leader than the living legend of WWII. Forget even that he was so arrogant as to think Wanda was going to drop everything and date him. Forget that he thougth he was so important that the US Goverment would pardon people who tried to take the world over on hsi say so, or that he regularly mouthed off to people who could squash him like a bug.

The dude conned an Elder of the Universe.

it was such a good ploy that they later re-used it in Giant Sized Defenders, with Daredevil as the cheater. Now, when DD does it, it's because his special powers show him that the "coin" is weighted a certain way. But Hawkey? No powers. He's relying entirely on slight of hand and the ability to bluff.

We're talking a man who gets by entirely on chutzpah.

I loved the most recent series for that very reason.

Kirk G

09-06-2005, 02:23 PM

Has anyone noticed how frequently Clint has dressed up in leather?
First, as a carny, he dresses in buck-skin or leather as he works "under" his rolemodel/mentor Swordsman (now tell me that isn't a gay relationship!!!) :rolleyes: (See Avengers #19 volume 1)
Second, he dons purple and midnight blue chain mall and leather as Hawkeye against Iron Man back in Tales of Suspense....circa issue 52 or so..maybe 56
Third, he strips off the Hawkeye costume to don an honest to god leather harness bondage mask and straps as Goliath (again with the gay references? :rolleyes: ) try Avengers 69 or so...
Fourth, returns to the Avengers in buckskin about Avengers #99-101
Fifth, takes up as Hawkeye again,
Sixth, dresses up as the "Golden Archer" (again with the suggestive names??? :rolleyes: ) This is over in Captain America, circa Nomad period...
Seventh, back to Hawkeye
Eighth, impersonates the Black Knight in Thunderbolts...circa issue 20
Ninth, back to Hawkeye
Tenth, he dies under Wanda's influence. Avengers #502..."He's dead, Jim"...
(Personally, I think she was just disgusted that he bedded Jan instead of her, what with all the gay and leather imagry that had been paraded around all his superhero career.... ):D

Dr. Hfuhruhurr

09-06-2005, 02:40 PM

My favorite run of the Avengers was when I first started reading it, circa 141-199 (excluding the much-reviled 200). I can't remember how many times I was reading the letters page that someone would write in and say, "When's Hawkeye coming back?" And I would think, "Who's Hawkeye?"

When he finally showed up (around the 170s, I think) and lost his job to the Falcon ("the WHO???") when the government shut the Avengers down, there were a couple great solo stories with Hawk and I think that's when I finally gained a real appreciation for the character. He's a guy who wants to be Captain America, but realizes he can never be Captain America. So he tries the best he can to be darn close..all the while never letting on how much he idolizes Cap -- even going so far as to be a major burr under the good Captain's saddle. He chases girls, drinks beer, calls it as he sees it, is tough as nails and, oh, by the way, hangs out with Cap, Iron Man and Thor. What's not to like?

Shellhead

09-06-2005, 03:11 PM

The dude conned an Elder of the Universe.

it was such a good ploy that they later re-used it in Giant Sized Defenders, with Daredevil as the cheater. Now, when DD does it, it's because his special powers show him that the "coin" is weighted a certain way. But Hawkey? No powers. He's relying entirely on slight of hand and the ability to bluff.

We're talking a man who gets by entirely on chutzpah.

All true, except that you have the sequence backwards. Daredevil's stunt in Giant-sized Defenders took place in the mid-70's, while Hawkeye's stunt in West Coast Avengers Annual took place in the mid-80's.

Shellhead

09-06-2005, 03:16 PM

Sixth, dresses up as the "Golden Archer" (again with the suggestive S&M imagry or names??? :rolleyes: )

Again, all this is true, except the Golden Archer costume was based on Marvel's version of Green Arrow, from Earth-Q's Squadron Supreme... even though that particular version of the costume was not the one that Clint saw when he met that Golden Archer. The only thing suggestive about the newer Golden Archer costume was the plunging neckline that revealed some chest hair, although it was freaky that Clint wore a rubber face mask over his regular Hawkeye mask in that issue.

EDIT: with 20/20 hindsight, the name "Golden Archer" makes me think of McDonald's more than anything else.

Kirk G

09-06-2005, 03:33 PM

EDIT: with 20/20 hindsight, the name "Golden Archer" makes me think of McDonald's more than anything else.
Some S&M or perverted people might think of another conotation. hint, hint :rolleyes:

PS: When and where did he con and elder of the universe? I don't recall that one. Details please.... :eek:

Shellhead

09-06-2005, 04:29 PM

Some S&M or perverted people might think of another conotation. hint, hint :rolleyes:

PS: When and where did he con and elder of the universe? I don't recall that one. Details please.... :eek:

I'm fairly perverted, but the golden shower angle didn't occur to me until post #85 in this thread.

Grandmaster and I forget who... maybe Death played a game where they pitted East Coast Avengers versus West Coast Avengers. I believe it was WCA Annual #2:

http://www.milehighcomics.com/cgi-bin/backissue.cgi?action=fullsize&issue=94951226874%202

It was a pale imitation of Starlin's excellent Giant-Sized Defenders #3. At the end, Grandmaster was going to do something extreme, and the Avengers tried to stop him. He blasted them all unconscious, IIRC, except Hawkeye, who hung back. Hawkeye challenged him to a new game, the old draw the short straw game, with Hawkeye substituting two arrows. When Grandmaster chose the correct one, Hawkeye used sleight of hand to snap off the arrow head to make that one even shorter than the real short one. Grandmaster fell for his carny trick like a slack-jawed rube.

CyberCoyote

09-06-2005, 06:41 PM

Something's great about him, he's slated for a Marvel Movie now :) Mmm..join the ranks of Man-Thing and Elektra :cool:

Kirk G

09-06-2005, 08:51 PM

I'm fairly perverted, but the golden shower angle didn't occur to me until post #85 in this thread.

Well, to be fair, it only popped up because I was pushing my point a bit... it never would have occurred to me...
but I DO remember comments in the letters pages at the time of the first Leather Goliath II outfit... hinting at strong Bondage or Gay imagry that Marvel's artist/creator was injecting. And under Gene Colan's artwork, there was ALOT of skin associated with that first costume. He either got cold alot, or had hard nipples after flying off into space with the skrulls...(You know, the one's that can assume any shape...that you want... er, here we go again... :D )

Dermie

09-06-2005, 09:38 PM

At the end, Grandmaster was going to do something extreme, and the Avengers tried to stop him. He blasted them all unconscious, IIRC, except Hawkeye, who hung back.

Not quite--the Avengers had just battled Grandmaster's Legion of the Unliving...and lost. Hawkeye and Cap were the only two Avengers who survived the first round; the rest of the East and West coast teams had been killed. Now Hawkeye and Cap were supposed to play round two--against the Legion of the Unliving which would now include all of the fallen Avengers. Instead, Hawkeye challenged him to a new game...and from there it plays out the way you described.

http://www.coverscans.de/covers2.asp?Kategorie=9132

To be fair. #1 was published in 1989 and #2 in 1994 (and featured also a new #1 on the cover).

It wasn't a "series"; they were two separate one-shots.

The Shadow

09-06-2005, 09:49 PM

Female Captain Marvel had a series, I love to see a link to that?
Ask and you shall receive! :D

http://image.milehighcomics.com/istore/images/fullsize/14783195836.1.GIF

It was only a one shot.

http://www.milehighcomics.com/cgi-bin/backissue.cgi?action=list&title=14783195836&snumber=1

boolean

09-06-2005, 10:29 PM

I'm all for alliteration, but calling someone who can transform into any type of energy, and therefore fly at the speed of light, the "supersonic sensation" is selling poor Monica a little short.

Ivan Isaacs

09-07-2005, 02:15 AM

It wasn't a "series"; they were two separate one-shots.

The second one-shot was called "Captain Marvel Vol. 2 #2" in the indicia. So for me that's a series. :D
But I already said that those were more like One-Shots (hence the new #1 on the cover of the second one). ;)

http://www.coverscans.de/scans/Clint/lg_20050307_203334.jpg

Dermie

09-07-2005, 09:12 AM

I'm all for alliteration, but calling someone who can transform into any type of energy, and therefore fly at the speed of light, the "supersonic sensation" is selling poor Monica a little short.

At that point in time, Monica could not fly at the speed of light--she didn't have her energy-powers. For the first one-shot, she had super-strength and flight, thanks to a dimensional interface she could generate around her body.

Shellhead

09-07-2005, 09:25 AM

Not quite--the Avengers had just battled Grandmaster's Legion of the Unliving...and lost. Hawkeye and Cap were the only two Avengers who survived the first round; the rest of the East and West coast teams had been killed. Now Hawkeye and Cap were supposed to play round two--against the Legion of the Unliving which would now include all of the fallen Avengers. Instead, Hawkeye challenged him to a new game...and from there it plays out the way you described.

My bad. It's been a long time since I read the West Coast Avengers, because I sold my run back in 1991.

BlackKnight

09-07-2005, 09:35 AM

Shellhead

09-07-2005, 01:37 PM

At that point in time, Monica could not fly at the speed of light--she didn't have her energy-powers. For the first one-shot, she had super-strength and flight, thanks to a dimensional interface she could generate around her body.

While those are fairly generic powers, they *work* for purposes of a solo title. Monica's normal powers are problematic for comic writers, in terms of telling exciting and visual stories with fight scenes.

Kirk G

09-07-2005, 01:44 PM

The second one-shot was called "Captain Marvel Vol. 2 #2" in the indicia. So for me that's a series. :D
But I already said that those were more like One-Shots (hence the new #1 on the cover of the second one). ;)

http://www.coverscans.de/scans/Clint/lg_20050307_203334.jpg

Is it my imagination, or is Monica sporting a bigger pair of... er, rack the later we see her? Anyone else notice this?
Um, I'm not saying Spider-Woman huge, but.... bigger in general??? :eek:

Frank

09-07-2005, 03:46 PM

He was the first super-hero with an attitude before having an attitude was fashionable. He`s like Dennis Leary and Billy the Kid in one guy. And among every Avengers, among every threats they had to face that day in the Grandmaster vs Death War, he won it all! He was the last one remaining.

Donald M.

09-07-2005, 03:55 PM

Green Arrow in the 70's was just Hawkeye with a beard spouting tired anti-establishment cliches.

Frank

09-07-2005, 04:05 PM

Green Arrow in the 70's was just Hawkeye with a beard spouting tired anti-establishment cliches.

that`s right :D

Dermie

09-08-2005, 10:27 PM

Wow that is a total change from her powers during her Avengers run.

Yeah, and they eventually realized it was a mistake to do that. In the second one-shot, she started to get some of her original powers back, and eventually she got her original powers fully restored (in the Starblast miniseries, of all places).

For a few years, Monica's powers were unpredictable, because writers couldn't remember which powers she was supposed to have--in Operation Galactic Storm she apparently had her energy powers back, but then when she next turned up in QUASAR, she was back to just the super-strength powers. It just tended to go back and forth (or sometimes a mix of both) depending on who was writing her.
Thankfully, they did finally restore her to her original power set, and that is what she has used ever since.

Smarty Jones

09-09-2005, 10:51 AM

Hawkeye was a quality character, and like Paradox said Clint Barton always was a favorite among the Avengers readers. He was basically a smart-aleck just like Wolverine was when Logan first joined The X-Men. If anything, Green Arrow's saracastic personality was more likely based on Hawkeye's before Oliver Queen's makeover in the late 1960s.

Hawkeye always came across as one of the guys you hang out with for a beer, a cocky, fun-loving guy (think of Bruce Willis-type personalities). But underneath that bluster and backbiting he gave Captain America over the years Hawkeye was one of the most loyal Avengers. During Avengers vol. 2, issue 3, when The Scarlet Witch tried to summon all The Avengers entralled by Morgan le Fey, Hawkeye was one of the very first ones to snap out.

Black Hole

09-09-2005, 12:22 PM

Hawkeye is my favorite Avenger. Period. This guy is one of the all time great Marvel characters. Some memorable Hawkeye moments...

1. The original Kree-Skrull war. The Skrull ship is on it's way back to Earth to unleash destruction. The only Avenger left at the port is Hawkeye, no -not Hawkeye, Goliath (as he was known then). Except that he had thrown away his serum at that point, leaving him powerless.

Cap and the rest of the Avengers knew the ship was going to be taking off. Cap radios back and tells Hawk to stop that ship, whatever the cost! He knew Clint was powerless, but he also knew that when the chips were down, this guy would come through.

2. Back in the late 70's early 80's , (circa issue #180's) when the government cracked down on the Avengers and limited them to 7 members. They're naming off names and they get to the last name, Hawkeye thinks it's going to be him, but instead the name that is called is:

"The Falcon."

and Hawkeye blurts out incredulously:

"The WHO?!"

3. Immediately following this, he's booted out, but he STILL teams up with the Avengers to take down the Absorbing man.

4. He joins up again, and around the time of Hank Pym's trial, when Egghead's version of the Masters of Evil was plaguing the team, The Radioactive Man used his power to revert She-Hulk back to Jennifer Walters.

Jen was shaken and fearful, afraid to try to turn into She-Hulk again because she was afraid to face the failure. The other Avengers walked on eggshells and "gave her space". Not Hawkeye.

He gets in her face, starts cutting her down, just ripping her to shreds. She slaps his face, at which point he throws back his head and laughs! Then, the best line ever:

"Well, I guess you showed me! By the way, was that supposed to hurt?"

Of course this infuriated Jen, causing her to turn back into She-Hulk and put him into a wall. See the lengths this guy is willing to go to to help his friends?

5. And speaking of lengths, at the end of that arc, Hawkeye kills Egghead when he is about to kill Hank Pym from behind. He shoots his arrow right into Egghead's gun-barrel, causing it to explode. Of course, this being the Avengers, he has to face the Avengers panel to determine if it was misconduct or not.

At this point, the usually loud-mouthed, brash archer unleashes a gripping, powerful speech defending his actions. A rare look at Hawkeye taking things seriously, and another reason why he gets so much respect from his fans.

6. The original Hawkeye mini-series. There's too many moments in this gem to get them all. When his armed 20 man security team turns on him and he has to think quick, he cuts the lights and shoots anybody who makes a sound, while edging his way out the door the entire time.

Then he has to rescue himself and Mockingbird from acid sludge pouring down on them in a pit.

He has nothing, not even a whole costume, but he refuses to run back to the Avengers and beg for help. He goes it alone. Even when he runs into Steve Rogers in the subway, he doesn't take the easy way out. This is his problem, and he will deal with it.

The big one, he and Mockingbird are pitted against each other in hand to hand combat, at the mercy of a hypersonic device that drives the brain to rage. Hawkeye puts one of his hypersonic arrowheads into his mouth to block the device, sacrificing his hearing to save the day.

This mini series marked a huge period of growth for this character. We never see things like this anymore. After this he had shown enough growth that he was able to lead West Coast Avengers. Until he was reverted to type by Byrne.

Someone already mentioned how he bamboozled The Grandmaster! That was brilliant. That's why people love this character. And Captain America actually thought he was going to play fair?! sigh...ol' Cornball Cap! (that was one of Hawkeye's nicknames for Cap.)

Hawkeye is a man who is kind of insecure about his abilities, so he practices constantly. The rub here is that if he wasn't insecure, he wouldn't be good enough! I really can't say enough good things about this character.